highaltitude.log.20110915

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[00:40] <griffonbot> @steamfire: Organizing the @LVL1WhiteStar stuff at @LVL1HackerSpace, prep for a fun #jetstream #amateurscience balloon season! #arhab #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/steamfire/status/114136423006871552]
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[06:34] <nosebleedKT> hi
[06:34] <SamSilver_> hi how you doing?
[06:35] <SamSilver_> what do you still need for flight? nosebleedKT
[06:35] <nosebleedKT> Hello SamSilver_
[06:36] <nosebleedKT> Today I will tryto find RocketBoy to order the chute and balloon
[06:36] <nosebleedKT> I got the money from my bro :)
[06:37] <nosebleedKT> And then I will need the helium
[06:37] <nosebleedKT> and im ready
[06:37] <SamSilver_> well done brother
[06:37] <nosebleedKT> hehe
[06:37] <SamSilver_> fill tube sorted?
[06:37] <nosebleedKT> he is a doctor. I can spend some of his money :)
[06:37] <nosebleedKT> What ?
[06:38] <SamSilver_> the tube that will conect he cylinder to balloon neck for filling
[06:38] <SamSilver_> the he*
[06:38] <nosebleedKT> i need something like that?
[06:40] <SamSilver_> the cylinder will have a tap / valve on it
[06:40] <SamSilver_> daveake: do you have a pic of yours?
[06:45] <daveake> I often get asked just that question ... lol
[06:45] <SamSilver_> lol
[06:45] <daveake> You mean helium cylinder? No - I'm collecting that today. It's a BOC one; last time it was Air Products. I'm told the filler is the same on each.
[06:46] <nosebleedKT> i guess when ill be given the tube that guy will give me that too
[06:46] <SamSilver_> how will you connect to balloon neck?
[06:46] <daveake> This is one type (NOT what I use) - http://www.atlweldingsupply.com/Helium-Balloon-Filler_p_805-4360.html
[06:47] <nosebleedKT> that tube guy i suppose he will give me that along with the tue
[06:47] <nosebleedKT> tube*
[06:48] <fsphil> I used that same filler the last two times
[06:48] <fsphil> though I got one of ebay with a pressure gauge
[06:49] <fsphil> nice knowing roughtly how much is left
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[06:49] <nosebleedKT> fsphil
[06:50] <nosebleedKT> i need that with pressure
[06:50] <nosebleedKT> link?
[06:50] <fsphil> it's not essential, but nice to have. no link handy, about to head out :) search ebay for balloon filler
[06:52] <daveake> The filler I used had a blue plastic nipple thing which you pull back to start the flow.
[06:52] <nosebleedKT> how i will now when to stop filling ?
[06:53] <daveake> I have a brass hose-tail with an internal diameter the same as the nipple external diameter. So it was a push fit witha bit of glue*, half a reel of duct tape and some tie wraps
[06:53] <daveake> *the nipple is polypropylene which doesn' glue except with special glue for the purpose
[06:55] <daveake> What I did was calculate the neck lift I wanted, then fill a lemonade bottle to that minus the weight of (most of) the filler. Then to test you tie the neck to the bottle and see if it just lifts. Keep filling till it does. We had very little wind so this worked very well.
[06:56] <nosebleedKT> !
[06:58] <daveake> http://i.imgur.com/aSBcL.jpg
[07:00] <daveake> This was for a Totex balloon, which had a neck size of 35mm or so. The tube here is standard indoor drain pipe at 40mm diameter, and fiitted well. http://i.imgur.com/7DLFA.jpg
[07:01] <eroomde> nosebleedKT: most of us use this method for inflation
[07:02] <eroomde> attach a ballast of a calculated mass such that when the balloon becomes neutrally bouyant with that bag, you have enough
[07:02] <eroomde> usually 'neautrally bouyant' means 'very very dlightly positive ascent'
[07:03] <eroomde> so when it starts to just lift off with the bag (which as daveake says must weigh the total list required minus the weight of the fill rig) you are good to go
[07:09] <nosebleedKT> but i need a specific amount of helium to fill in order to get to a specific altitud
[07:14] <daveake> Yes, use the balloon burst predictor. You enter the altitude, balloon make/size and payload weight. It'll then calculate how much helium, how long to ascend, and the neck lift. That last number is the one you need.
[07:18] <number10> dave can you explain neck lift
[07:18] <fsphil> also, you almost certainly will never get a specific altitude
[07:19] <costyn_> daveake: do you have a link for the balloon burst predictor?
[07:22] <daveake> Neck lift is the amount of lift at the neck :)
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[07:22] <daveake> if you hang that weight from the balloon, it is as eroomde says, neutrally bouyant. It won't rise or fall.
[07:23] <fsphil> or, the amount of lift of the gas, minus the weight of the balloon
[07:23] <daveake> costyn_ - http://tinyurl.com/432tdss :)
[07:24] <daveake> There's a burst calculator in the panel on that first link
[07:25] <daveake> Or this - http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/calc/
[07:25] <costyn_> daveake: thanks!
[07:26] <fsphil> I somehow underfilled last time. not sure what happened
[07:26] <costyn_> daveake: haha... well I treid that before I asked you of course, but I didn't get anything that seemed directly relevant
[07:26] <costyn_> daveake: thanks, that second link is most helpful
[07:27] <daveake> I overfilled ... we filled early then I had a (non) issue with the electronics. By the time I got that tested the balloon had dflated a bit. Fearing a slight balloon leak I overfilled. The leak I am sure was the filler.
[07:28] <nosebleedKT> I need to learn some balloon physics.
[07:28] <fsphil> nah, just need a set of scales and a bottle of water :)
[07:29] <nosebleedKT> Someone explain with simple words what is the neck lift.
[07:30] <fsphil> <daveake> if you hang that weight from the balloon, it is as eroomde says, neutrally bouyant. It won't rise or fall.
[07:30] <fsphil> ^^
[07:31] <fsphil> if you calculate you need a neck lift of 1500 grams
[07:31] <fsphil> you fill the balloon until it hovers with 1500 grams attached to it
[07:31] <nosebleedKT> ee
[07:31] <nosebleedKT> wait
[07:32] <nosebleedKT> with my scenario i get Neck Lift: 3682 g
[07:33] <daveake> That's quite a lot. What payload weight?
[07:33] <nosebleedKT> 1000g
[07:33] <daveake> Doesn't sound right
[07:33] <nosebleedKT> with 1600 balloon
[07:34] <daveake> Short flight then
[07:34] <nosebleedKT> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/calc/
[07:34] <daveake> Altitude?
[07:34] <nosebleedKT> 35km
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[07:35] <fsphil> that's a lot of HE :)
[07:36] <daveake> OK, see that. For 1kg payload I've used a 1kg balloon and 3 cu m of helium. Gets to around 30km in 2 hours. Cheaper balloon and a lot less helium.
[07:36] <daveake> But if you want to get to 35km then you did need a larger balloon than 1000g
[07:36] <daveake> So you're paying a lot more for helium and ballon just for that extra 5km
[07:37] <nosebleedKT> no
[07:37] <nosebleedKT> i just cant find a 1200 ballon
[07:37] <nosebleedKT> and i ended up with 1600
[07:38] <daveake> It all works, just expensive
[07:38] <nosebleedKT> yes, but can i do :(
[07:38] <nosebleedKT> i will just have a shorter flight
[07:38] <fsphil> if you use less gas, you may get a higher altitude
[07:38] <fsphil> *for variable abouts of may*
[07:38] <nosebleedKT> i know fsphil. but we dont want higher alt
[07:39] <costyn_> at what PSI are the bottles of helium usually provided? I mean, how much cu m helium can you get out of say a 30L bottle?
[07:39] <fsphil> amounts*
[07:39] <daveake> PSI is very high, but that's not a factor
[07:39] <daveake> For 100g payload / 1600g balloon, 3.66 cu m will/may/could/should get you to 38km
[07:40] <daveake> 1000g*
[07:40] <daveake> As for balloon size, the uspplier should be able to tell you how many cubic metres you get. That's the number you want.
[07:41] <daveake> Uusally the conversation goes thus: "How many balloons do you need to fill?" "Er, just the one"
[07:41] <fsphil> love that conversation
[07:41] <daveake> Me too :)
[07:41] <fsphil> and the odd look immediately after
[07:42] <costyn_> haha
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[07:48] <fsphil> I might do a foil launch soon, while I'm waiting on the big launches
[07:48] <Darkside> heh
[07:48] <fsphil> the wind this weekend will carry it towards wales
[07:49] <fsphil> mornevening Darkside
[07:49] <nosebleedKT> where is that rocketboy!
[07:49] <Darkside> fsphil: 1719 here :-)
[07:49] <nosebleedKT> hi dark
[07:50] <nosebleedKT> its me mixio :)
[07:50] <Darkside> yes, i realised
[07:50] <fsphil> ah, the land time forgot
[07:51] <fsphil> oh wait that would be us, you're in the future!
[07:52] <Darkside> yup
[07:53] <fsphil> still flying this weekend?
[07:55] <Darkside> yeah
[07:56] <Darkside> http://projecthorus.org/predict/#!/uuid=8adfd365db2a770ca567fbe0cb9bfdfd234603ca prediction is getting better and better
[07:57] <Darkside> wait wha
[08:00] <SamSilver_> huh
[08:00] <SamSilver_> midnight launch
[08:01] <Darkside> its in UTC SamSilver_
[08:02] <number10> whats in the fields out that way Darkside
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[08:02] <Darkside> wheat, sheep, cows
[08:04] <SamSilver_> of course it is and you are down under my silly
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[08:22] <juxta> hey Darkside
[08:25] <Darkside> hey juxta
[08:26] <juxta> predictions are looking good! :D
[08:26] <Darkside> i'm getting the payload finished up tonight, i went to the hardware store and got some brickies line and a hot glue gun
[08:26] <Darkside> yep
[08:26] <Darkside> way better now
[08:26] <juxta> indeed
[08:27] <juxta> any ideas on food to pack?
[08:27] <Darkside> eh?
[08:27] <juxta> that didnt come out right
[08:27] <Darkside> not sure, the original plan was to have lunch at keith at the bakery, but its looking like the balloon will go too far north
[08:27] <juxta> haha
[08:28] <juxta> yeah I was going to bring an eski of beer and snags
[08:28] <Darkside> but then we'd need a BBQ
[08:29] <juxta> yeah, I was thinking of using one of the ones on the highway
[08:29] <Darkside> haha
[08:29] <Darkside> ahh man yes
[08:29] <Darkside> hmm theres a cafe in lameroo
[08:30] <juxta> lameroo is a spec
[08:30] <Darkside> theres also a park there
[08:30] <juxta> there's a 'pub' there too but it's really nothing
[08:30] <Darkside> maybe a bbq there
[08:30] <juxta> hopefully
[08:30] <Darkside> hehe
[08:30] <Darkside> also i'll be in a car with grant
[08:30] <juxta> we could always do what we did a while ago at the GP
[08:31] <Darkside> so if the 3g drops out i'll be able to harass hi
[08:31] <Darkside> harass him*
[08:31] <juxta> we heated food on the engine
[08:31] <Darkside> BAHAAHAH
[08:31] <Darkside> it'd have to be on your car
[08:31] <Darkside> the diesels wouldn't get hot enough
[08:31] <juxta> yeah they do
[08:32] <juxta> we've used both
[08:32] <Darkside> oh ok :P
[08:32] <Darkside> nice
[08:32] <juxta> we didnt *cook* stuff
[08:32] <Darkside> haha
[08:32] <Darkside> i wouldn't want to cook snags on your engine anyway
[08:32] <juxta> but we just wrapped up some things in alfoil and left them on the head for a few mins
[08:32] <juxta> no I dont think so either
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[08:33] <number10> dont you guys have a camping cooker - or is it just the Oz way to rough it and cook on the manifold
[08:33] <juxta> number10, yeah, I do
[08:34] <juxta> this way is just far less economical on fuel
[08:35] <number10> Do you have BBQs on the roadside?
[08:35] <Darkside> sometimes
[08:35] <Darkside> in australia, you often hit kangaroos
[08:35] <Darkside> and they make good eating
[08:35] <Darkside> all the good highways have BBQs every 20km or so, for that purpose
[08:36] <number10> so all you need is some wood or charcoal and a knife
[08:36] <juxta> the BBQ's are generally electric
[08:36] <juxta> so you just need roadkill
[08:36] <Darkside> and made by general electric too!
[08:37] <fsphil> that's slightly mad :)
[08:37] <Darkside> http://www1.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/ bahaha look at the school news
[08:38] <Darkside> the decription is pretty screwed up
[08:38] <Darkside> A) it wasn't a micronut that flew
[08:38] <juxta> haha
[08:38] <juxta> oh well
[08:38] <fsphil> javascript link .. fail :)
[08:41] <juxta> heya fsphil
[08:42] <fsphil> howdy juxta, how's things
[08:43] <juxta> good thanks!
[08:43] <juxta> though have been out of the loop with things for a while
[08:44] <juxta> what's news with you? have you launched again?
[08:45] <fsphil> launched back in june, getting ready for another one soon-ish, I think, maybe
[08:46] <fsphil> going to have a go at horus 15.5's altitude too :)
[08:47] <Darkside> haha
[08:47] <Darkside> everyone wants to beat it
[08:48] <juxta> hehe
[08:49] <juxta> there may be another to beat in a few days time too
[08:50] <fsphil> hope so!
[08:50] <Darkside> haha this going to become a UK vs Australia competition :P
[08:50] <juxta> Darkside, I put 15.5 as 'sacrificed': http://projecthorus.org/?page_id=663
[08:50] <fsphil> it's like cricket, only interesting
[08:51] <juxta> do you have the logs? I can do the flight paths etc
[08:51] <Darkside> bahahahahahha
[08:51] <number10> well I thought you guys were joking about electric BBQs - but I see that there are some in rest areas
[08:51] <Darkside> juxta: hmm
[08:51] <Darkside> hold on
[08:51] <juxta> number10, they look like this:
[08:51] <juxta> http://www.takeabreak.com.au/photos/5766/Narrabeen-BBQ.JPG
[08:52] <Darkside> juxta: http://pastebin.com/d7aTi6R2
[08:52] <number10> amazing - is it free
[08:52] <juxta> okay great, I'll use that
[08:52] <juxta> number10, yes
[08:53] <fsphil> that is so weird
[08:54] <juxta> are bring-your-own-fuel public bbq's common in the UK?
[08:55] <number10> no public BBQs here
[08:55] <fsphil> I seen one in a forest park once
[08:55] <juxta> hmm, are bbq's comon in general?
[08:55] <juxta> common*
[08:56] <fsphil> disposable bbqs are common, if the weather is good
[08:56] <number10> yea - everyone has one but none public
[08:57] <juxta> disposable bbqs?
[08:59] <number10> just like a small aluminium fould tray - with charcaol in and a grid on-top -
[08:59] <fsphil> yea, little foil boxes that come with fuel and the grill
[09:00] <number10> fould==foil
[09:00] <juxta> oh right - I dont think I have seen those before
[09:00] <number10> my typing is bad today
[09:00] <juxta> Darkside, seen them here?
[09:00] <nosebleedKT> just finished the order :)
[09:01] <Darkside> nope
[09:01] <number10> http://www.johnlewis.com/231249989/Product.aspx?source=63258
[09:01] <number10> you guys probably dont need them if you have free roadside electric ones
[09:02] <juxta> well you only find the free ones in recreational areas
[09:02] <juxta> they're not on every street corner ;p
[09:03] <juxta> I think the reason is probably that disposable ones here would end up starting fires all over the place
[09:04] <juxta> Darkside,
[09:04] <juxta> that only landed about 2 miles out to sea
[09:04] <Darkside> yah
[09:04] <Darkside> it may have washed up on shore
[09:05] <juxta> well, cmon, what's your excuse?! swimmers on and off you go.
[09:05] <juxta> might be a tad colder and rougher than here, but still!
[09:05] <Darkside> hahahaha
[09:05] <juxta> :P
[09:05] <Darkside> yeah, north sea and all
[09:06] <number10> he was down the pub
[09:09] <juxta> we have those here
[09:10] <juxta> Darkside, http://projecthorus.org/horus15.5.html
[09:10] <juxta> look right?
[09:11] <Darkside> yup
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[09:14] <juxta> Darkside, http://projecthorus.org/horus15.5.kmz
[09:15] <Darkside> mmm
[09:16] <Darkside> cool
[09:26] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/X5C2D.jpg
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[09:36] <daveake> Darkside: cool. Is that the lightweight payload? This is my full-fat one - http://imgur.com/DFscP. Width is 20cm (photo makes it look bigger).
[09:36] <daveake> Er http://i.imgur.com/DFscP.jpg
[09:36] <Darkside> heh
[09:36] <Darkside> yes, thats the light payload
[09:36] <Darkside> its about 100g
[09:36] <daveake> This one is (well will be) 800g
[09:37] <daveake> You've seen the lightweight one :)
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[10:07] <number10> where did you get the box from daveake
[10:10] <daveake> Bought a box on ebay. Then decided it was far too large so I hacked iit into smaller pieces.
[10:10] <daveake> Start weight 354g; end weight 65g !!
[10:10] <daveake> 75g
[10:10] <daveake> Annyway I had a big pile of excess polystyrene afterwards. Mrs Dave was amused at this ...
[10:11] <number10> lol
[10:11] <number10> does she get anoyed at listening to RTTY?
[10:15] <daveake> She gets annoyed that the weather station thing doesn't work properly because the NTX2 blasts over the same frequency it uses.
[10:16] <number10> lol - what the total size of the large one?
[10:17] <daveake> 20cm wide, 12 deep, 18 high
[10:18] <daveake> So quite a lot smaller than I flew (25 x 25 x 25)
[10:19] <number10> yes
[10:21] <daveake> With the stuff going inside, I couldn't make it much smaller really.
[10:23] <number10> on ebay - loads of polystyrene egg boxes - but strangely ough also polysyrene eggs
[10:24] <number10> some massive boxes on there
[10:27] chris_99 (~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929) joined #highaltitude.
[10:27] <daveake> Yep. Last time I made the box from 25mm sheets.
[10:29] <number10> I saw those - but you need to buy a mega amount
[10:30] <daveake> Try a DIY store
[10:30] <number10> good idea
[10:31] <number10> I asked goods in here - but nothing comes in poly boxes anymore just loose chippings
[10:37] <number10> ah - I foiund a few sheets in the lab - prob not enough - also found some of the foam stuff but seems a bit heavey
[10:43] <fsphil> hehe, you can get Buzz Lightyear shaped foil balloons
[10:46] <Darkside> daveake: DO ITTTT
[10:51] <daveake> lol ... brb
[11:05] <daveake> So, a pico flight ... buzz1 carried bya buzz balloon?
[11:06] <daveake> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/24-Disney-Toy-Story-BUZZ-LIGHTYEAR-Foil-Shape-Balloon-/120657380582?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Celebrations_Occasions_ET&hash=item1c17bd84e6 LOL
[11:06] <fsphil> that would be very cool
[11:06] <fsphil> you'd need a couple though
[11:06] <daveake> OK, so I need a pico expert here ... how many 36"-high Buzz balloons would I need to lift 100g?
[11:07] <daveake> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/38-Inch-Buzz-Lightyear-Toy-Story-Foil-Balloon-/270803611641?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Celebrations_Occasions_ET&hash=item3f0d272ff9#ht_500wt_1180 is larger than the one above, but not as "cool" :)
[11:13] <fsphil> I'm going to get a couple of the 36 inch plain balloons just in case
[11:13] <fsphil> I don't think one is enough
[11:15] <fsphil> ooh, I've a choice of colour
[11:16] <daveake> fly the flag
[11:18] <fsphil> no white :)
[11:19] <fsphil> silver is probably best, I don't want the sun heating it up too much
[11:19] <number10> I think NigeyS said his could lift 98g
[11:24] <number10> no - it was 54g with ballon not quite full
[11:27] <fsphil> 5 day shipping, I'm not going to get the big ones for this weekend
[11:30] <Laurenceb_> Randosmkk: yeah ive seen the LISA/M
[11:30] <Laurenceb_> *RandomsKK
[11:30] <NigelMoby> Do not use funky shaped balloons
[11:30] <NigelMoby> They have appaling lift
[11:30] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: debating using lisa and paparazzi instead of developing my own stuff
[11:30] <Randomskk> maybe not lisa
[11:31] <Randomskk> I forget, which autopilot software are you using?
[11:31] <Laurenceb_> you can use Dactyl if you want
[11:31] <Laurenceb_> im using a custom port of Openpilo0t
[11:31] <Laurenceb_> well - very custom
[11:31] <Randomskk> why openpilot rather than paparazzi?
[11:32] <Laurenceb_> it was way more advanced
[11:32] <Laurenceb_> not sure if paparazzi have caught up, but it doesnt look like it
[11:32] <Randomskk> basically I think doing all my own hardware and software is probably more reinventing the wheel than really is useful, but at the same time I think I am seriously considering making my own hardware still
[11:32] <Randomskk> hmm I see, okay
[11:32] <Laurenceb_> not 100% sure about that
[11:32] <Randomskk> cusf are planning to use paparazzi and lisa for our rocket stuff
[11:32] <Laurenceb_> i still dont see a good single board
[11:32] <Randomskk> but ex-cusf guys are working on both now so
[11:33] <Laurenceb_> Openpilot CC is getting there
[11:33] <Laurenceb_> but it doesnt have integrated ISM radio
[11:33] <Laurenceb_> pip of pipextreme fame seems to have had a major mard with the main devs
[11:33] <Laurenceb_> regarding opensourcing of gerbers or something
[11:34] <Randomskk> hm
[11:34] <Laurenceb_> so no pipextreme groundstation :(
[11:34] <Laurenceb_> but the pipextreme codebase is on the openpilot git
[11:34] <Darkside> Randomskk: has anyone at CUSF written a UBX parser?
[11:34] <Laurenceb_> Dactyl was designed to use the pipextreme groundstation
[11:34] <Laurenceb_> Darkside: in the Dactyl git
[11:35] <Darkside> keke link
[11:35] <Darkside> so i don't have to write it myself >_>
[11:35] <NigelMoby> Darkside!!
[11:35] <Darkside> NigelMoby: !!!
[11:35] <Laurenceb_> https://github.com/Laurenceb/Dactyl
[11:35] <NigelMoby> It's alive.. the PCB... Kinda..
[11:35] <Laurenceb_> in sensors
[11:36] <Darkside> kinda?
[11:36] <NigelMoby> The dtr only worked once
[11:36] <Darkside> uhh?
[11:36] <Darkside> not sure what you mean
[11:37] <NigelMoby> The dtr pin to autoreset from ftdi
[11:37] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: I'm presently working with McLaren F1 for vehicle monitoring with Dactyl
[11:37] <Darkside> oh god Laurenceb_ i love you so much
[11:38] <Darkside> so so so much
[11:38] shipit_ (~shipit@67.221.38.116) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[11:38] <Laurenceb_> its a little hush hush :P
[11:38] <Darkside> (for the ubx parseR)
[11:38] <Darkside> you've written it exactly as i was going to
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[11:38] <Darkside> i.e. ISR based packet processing
[11:38] <Darkside> thats AWESOME
[11:39] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: that's really cool
[11:39] <Randomskk> okay
[11:39] <Darkside> i should be able to add in all the other stuff
[11:39] <Darkside> as i'm going to want to add in support for other class types
[11:40] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: I made a few stupid errors
[11:40] <Laurenceb_> i cant use the DMA on USART1 now
[11:40] <Laurenceb_> as the channels are used for SPI2 to the SD card
[11:41] <Laurenceb_> and the performance aims have expanded a little
[11:41] <Laurenceb_> i origionally planned to avoid using an RTOS
[11:41] <Laurenceb_> then i was going to use Chibios
[11:41] <Laurenceb_> but now ive read the documentation for the NVIC controller - and im going to use that
[11:42] <Laurenceb_> seriuosly awesome bit of kit
[11:42] <Randomskk> I'm at the point where I dunno whether to give up on doing a lot of stuff myself or what - what I really want to play with is swarming things, so spending too much time on the stuff that's not that is maybe less worthwhile
[11:43] <Randomskk> but like, you can't buy a tiny quadcopter that does what I want, so I am gonna have to make my own hardware I think
[11:43] <Laurenceb_> origionally i just wanted basic telemetery, but now im going to go for UAVtalk over pipextreme
[11:43] <Laurenceb_> and the openpilot gui
[11:43] <Randomskk> so I'm thinking of using stm32s for making my own BLDC controllers, then a chunkier stm32 for autopilot and related stuff
[11:43] <Laurenceb_> with some slight customisation using the xml config stuff
[11:43] <Laurenceb_> sounds sane
[11:43] <Randomskk> but I guess the main difference is to use an existing autopilot software, paparazzi or openpilot or whatever
[11:44] <Laurenceb_> youd be silly to to at least reuse a lot of files
[11:44] <Randomskk> writing all my own estimation and control feedback stuff is perhaps the most pointless of the duplication of effort
[11:44] <Randomskk> ideally I'd like to be in a position where my 4th year uni project can be "doing fun things with a multitude of little quadcopters", for which the the prerequistite is having a working small quadcopter
[11:44] <Laurenceb_> e.g. Openpilot CC (single board version) is just the OpenPilot codebase+a few files from Diydrones and a makefile
[11:45] <Randomskk> is openpilot cc hardware or software? what is it?
[11:45] <Laurenceb_> both
[11:45] <Randomskk> oh okay
[11:45] <Randomskk> hum
[11:45] <Randomskk> I'm aiming at like a 20g to 30g total mass quadcopter I think
[11:45] <Darkside> Laurenceb_: static uint16_t Lenght;
[11:45] <Laurenceb_> for your use I might try OpenPilot CC+Xigbee
[11:45] <Darkside> why
[11:45] <Randomskk> so I really think it's going to have to be entirely my own hardware
[11:46] <Laurenceb_> Darkside: i think its in the UBX speck
[11:46] <Laurenceb_> *spec
[11:46] <Darkside> no
[11:46] <Darkside> i mean why did you mis-spell length
[11:46] <Laurenceb_> lmao
[11:46] <Laurenceb_> cuz i suck
[11:46] <Darkside> but you did it *everywherE*
[11:46] <Darkside> surely you must have noticed
[11:46] <Laurenceb_> roflmao
[11:46] <Randomskk> 30g includeing four motors, four motor controllers, camera, battery, IMU and autopilot is going to be fun
[11:46] <Laurenceb_> erm ok
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> youll never do that with openpilot
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> they just arent aiming for light weight
[11:47] <Randomskk> indeed
[11:47] <Randomskk> I'm still trying to work out if it's even possible
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> that was one of my aims with Dactyl, but the whole system is 20grams
[11:47] <Randomskk> hmm
[11:47] <Randomskk> what, the whole pcb?
[11:47] <Randomskk> without battery?
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> populated with connectors, gps and stuff
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> yes
[11:47] <Randomskk> yea
[11:48] <Laurenceb_> you could strip down Dactyl
[11:48] <Randomskk> the motors I'm eyeing up at 2.3g each and provide about 20g lift
[11:48] <Randomskk> each
[11:48] <Randomskk> so I guess I have a little leeway
[11:48] <Laurenceb_> lose the RTC, RS485, brushed ESC
[11:48] <Laurenceb_> back up battery
[11:48] <Randomskk> but yea, I don't think it'l be easy
[11:48] <Randomskk> yea but I'm adding in four BLDC controllers
[11:48] <Randomskk> though for 2A motors so the transistors can be tiny
[11:49] <Laurenceb_> Dactyl is ideally for fixed wing
[11:49] <Randomskk> have you seen quadshot?
[11:49] Action: Laurenceb_ googles
[11:49] <Randomskk> I'm really really tempted to preorder one from their kickstart
[11:49] <Randomskk> kickstarter*
[11:49] <Randomskk> it's a quadcopter with a wing basically
[11:49] <Laurenceb_> nice
[11:49] <Randomskk> so it can transition to fixed wing flight with four forward facing props
[11:50] <Randomskk> but $500 gets me the chasis, motors, battery, lisa/m, everything except rc gear
[11:50] <Randomskk> plus two xbees etc
[11:50] <Laurenceb_> Dakrside: i think i misspelled the declaration then fixed the compile errors by correcting the spelling without thinking XD
[11:50] Action: Laurenceb_ fails
[11:51] <Laurenceb_> head to #openpilot
[11:51] <Laurenceb_> but i dont think you'll be able to persuade them of the need for light weight
[11:51] <Laurenceb_> the Brigham Young guys seem to steer things a lot
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Well - if you cut your PCB thickness in half, that'd do lots for the weight
[11:52] <BrainDamage> how much either board weights?
[11:52] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: actually the GPS is a major wieght
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> ceramic ant?
[11:52] <Laurenceb_> pcb itself is a few grams
[11:52] <Laurenceb_> somthing like that
[11:52] <Laurenceb_> then theres all the connectors
[11:53] <Laurenceb_> i traded ease of use - 2mm connectors for mass
[11:53] <Randomskk> yea, if I was doing my own hardware I wouldn't have any connectors as single pcb
[11:53] <Laurenceb_> if you stripped it down and went quadcopter only
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> PCB thinner, no connectors, ...
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[11:53] <Laurenceb_> so no pitot tube or any of the other stuff
[11:53] <Laurenceb_> just lsm303dlh, itg3200, measurement spec baro
[11:53] <Laurenceb_> and stm32
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> then just linear regs maybe
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> And by the time it's built, you'll get 9 axis chips
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> heh
[11:54] <Randomskk> still need GPS
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> shit
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> dohg
[11:54] <Randomskk> plus four more STM32s for motor control, four motors, the transistors for the bldc power stage, battery
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> yeah thats >50% of my mass
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> ^ GPS is
[11:54] <Randomskk> could probably get a lighter one
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> true
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> umm - four more stms?
[11:54] <Randomskk> there are some stupidly tiny ublox 7s coming out soon
[11:54] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: doing more than one bldc per stm32 is hard
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> ublox7?!
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> Ok - motor control is fairly annoying.
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> And will need careful interrupt handling
[11:55] <Randomskk> I mean 6
[11:55] Action: Laurenceb_ wonders if you could control 4 motors off one stm32
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> But you really can't do 4?
[11:55] <BrainDamage> 4 stm32? that sounds overkill
[11:55] <Laurenceb_> hmm everything off the one stm32 XD
[11:55] <Randomskk> the new value line stm32s are perfect for driving one bldc each, are a tiny package and cost less than the cheapest ATmega
[11:55] <Randomskk> so yea
[11:55] <Randomskk> four for motor control
[11:55] <Laurenceb_> stm32 has no analogue comparitor tho
[11:55] <Randomskk> one for autopilot
[11:55] <Laurenceb_> ok i guess
[11:55] <Randomskk> yea it does
[11:55] <Laurenceb_> oh
[11:55] <Randomskk> the value line ones have a three channel comparator
[11:56] <Laurenceb_> aha
[11:56] <Randomskk> and a bldc timer
[11:56] <Randomskk> it's literally designed for bldc
[11:56] Action: Laurenceb_ checks out ublox7 specs
[11:56] <Randomskk> probably another stm32 for camera/computer vision stuff
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: seen the 5*5 BGA teeny arm cortex parts?
[11:56] <Randomskk> though they're not really powerful enough. maybe with some ram...
[11:56] <Randomskk> nope. might have to check those out
[11:56] <Randomskk> sounds like my kinda thing for this
[11:57] <Laurenceb_> hmm no ublox7 on their site yet
[11:58] <Randomskk> Randomskk> I mean 6
[11:58] <Randomskk> http://www.u-blox.com/en/gps-modules/pvt-modules/max-6.html
[11:58] <Laurenceb_> ah got you
[11:58] <Laurenceb_> the new fsa03 has that already
[11:58] <Laurenceb_> https://github.com/Laurenceb/Dactyl/blob/master/Hardware/Assembly/photo2.JPG
[11:59] <Laurenceb_> ^the actual board area for the mems imu is very small
[11:59] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: but I don't mean the chipset, I mean that MAX6
[11:59] <Randomskk> it's like 1cm square
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: http://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1701.html
[11:59] <Laurenceb_> all the area to the RHS of the stm32 is a brushed esc and a rs485 transceiver
[12:00] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: nice
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> 2*2*0.6mm 32 bit micro
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> Madness I tell you!
[12:00] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: ooh nice. that might work very well for motor control
[12:00] <Randomskk> hang on
[12:00] <Randomskk> wtf
[12:00] <Randomskk> 2mm by 2mm?!
[12:01] <Randomskk> that's insane
[12:01] <Laurenceb_> hmm no max6 on the webstore
[12:01] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: not out yet aiui
[12:01] <Laurenceb_> but they have 12x16mm ones
[12:01] <Randomskk> neo6 is slightly bigger
[12:01] <Randomskk> we have a roll of those at cusf
[12:02] <Laurenceb_> niceee
[12:02] <Randomskk> planning to use them in upcoming payload design or something
[12:02] <Randomskk> but for my tiny quadcopter I think the max6 is where I want to be
[12:02] <Randomskk> it's so tiny and lightweight
[12:03] <Laurenceb_> i guess a ufl or whatever it its called connector and you have a very lightweight flexible board
[12:03] <Randomskk> yea
[12:03] <Laurenceb_> ok it might be possible
[12:03] <Laurenceb_> id still try and stick an si4432 on there
[12:03] <Laurenceb_> maybe with dual ant support
[12:03] <Randomskk> yea I'd probably do that
[12:03] <Randomskk> lighter weight than an xbee
[12:03] <Laurenceb_> and ufl connectors again
[12:03] <Laurenceb_> pipextreme owns
[12:04] <Randomskk> though I really really want the mesh networking support
[12:04] <Laurenceb_> pipextreme is point to point
[12:04] <Laurenceb_> but allows multicasting and stuff
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: You was the 225mg plane I linked?
[12:04] <Randomskk> hm?
[12:04] <Laurenceb_> but it is AES128 encrypted and uses FHSS
[12:04] <Randomskk> I've not made any planes, so probably not
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=961876
[12:05] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: that's super super cool
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> Helis are harder of course.
[12:05] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: multicast would be enough
[12:05] <Randomskk> I can implement mesh topographies on top of a multicast system
[12:05] <Randomskk> okay
[12:05] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: there is a really nice USB groundstation board
[12:05] <Randomskk> the AES is just icing on the cake
[12:05] <Laurenceb_> but thats the thing there was the fall out about aiui
[12:05] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: what I want to do is be able to have a ton of these super lightweight boards deploy from a bigger quadcopter
[12:06] <Laurenceb_> now pip isnt talking to the other developers :(
[12:06] <Randomskk> then divide and conquer to do things like searching large areas
[12:06] <Laurenceb_> but you can make your own board easily enough
[12:06] <Randomskk> so large quadcopter carries ten of them, flies high up, releases the swarm of little ones, they can spread out and search a large area for whatever - onboard camera so basic computer vision would be doable
[12:06] <Laurenceb_> or just hack OpenLRS with custom firmware
[12:06] <Randomskk> maybe just look for something like a large easily recognised pattern on a car roof or that someone is holding or whatever
[12:06] <Laurenceb_> as thats si4432
[12:07] <Laurenceb_> - what blacksheep RC use for their mad videos
[12:07] <Randomskk> okay, cool
[12:07] <Randomskk> so plenty of options
[12:07] <Laurenceb_> thats an unencrypted point to point si4432 434Mhz system
[12:08] <Laurenceb_> blacksheep got over 25Km iirc
[12:08] <Randomskk> that'd do nicely :P
[12:08] <Randomskk> so I guess my development focus immediately is making a working BLDC using the new STM32s
[12:08] <Randomskk> once that's done I can design a single PCB quadcopter to get inside that 30g weight limit
[12:09] <Randomskk> run openpilot or paparazzi or whatever on it for stable flight
[12:09] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq3lmx-vAas
[12:09] <Randomskk> then start playing with swarm ideas
[12:09] <Randomskk> stm32 isn't really powerful enough to do any kind of useful computer vision though I don't think, might need to upgrade to something beefier
[12:09] <Randomskk> A8 perhaps :P
[12:10] <Randomskk> could have an stm32 run autopilot/flight control and the A8 do the mission control stuff I guess
[12:11] <Laurenceb_> hmm i need to do a new PCB
[12:12] <Laurenceb_> i could get the size down a bit
[12:12] <Laurenceb_> atm its 60x40mm
[12:13] <Laurenceb_> if you can lose the servo headers, shrink the gps, and lose the brushed esc and rs485 thats about 30x40mm
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[12:16] <Laurenceb_> quite a lot of layout work to do the pcb
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[12:16] <Laurenceb_> but yeah id use openpilot GUI on the ground side, with pipextreme and a custom ground receiver board
[12:17] <Laurenceb_> then try and use openpilot code as much as possible
[12:17] <Laurenceb_> but you couldnt use the straight openpilot codebase
[12:17] <Laurenceb_> its designed for 4 seperate boards atm :(
[12:17] <Randomskk> one thing nice about paparazzi is that it seems trivial to use it for any given board config
[12:17] <Randomskk> also that I'm using it for cusf rocket so
[12:18] <Laurenceb_> and CC is lame
[12:18] <Randomskk> if I do get one of those quadshots (very tempted) then it also uses it
[12:18] <Laurenceb_> hmm i should take a look at paparazzi
[12:18] <Laurenceb_> does it use stm32?
[12:18] <Randomskk> yes
[12:18] <Laurenceb_> nice, one processor?
[12:18] <Randomskk> yes aiui
[12:20] <Laurenceb_> ah i see
[12:20] <Laurenceb_> dactyl is a little limited by 128KB flash
[12:21] <Randomskk> hmm
[12:22] <Randomskk> I dunno whether I should now try making a bldc controller work with an stm32
[12:22] <Randomskk> or just buy a really lightweight bldc controller for now and start trying to make a tiny quadcopter that uses prebought little bldcs
[12:22] <nosebleedKT> which soldering method is considered easier? SMD or through hole?
[12:22] <Randomskk> SMD
[12:23] <Laurenceb_> hmm lisa/m looks nice
[12:23] <Randomskk> it does a bit
[12:23] <Laurenceb_> im guessing it has a kalman?
[12:23] <Randomskk> can't remember
[12:23] <Laurenceb_> CC uses the diydrones filter code
[12:23] <Randomskk> so that's paparazzi rather than lisa
[12:23] <Randomskk> lisa's just the hardware
[12:23] <Laurenceb_> i see
[12:24] <Randomskk> so I'm not sure. the people developing lisa ran their estimation on a gumstix which attaches to the lisa/l
[12:24] <Randomskk> lisa/l being bigger and with more sensors and has space for a gumstix
[12:24] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[12:24] <Laurenceb_> yeah openpilot had issues running everything on one core
[12:24] <Laurenceb_> they had to lose the kalman
[12:25] <Randomskk> so do they not have one or does it go on a different core?
[12:25] <Randomskk> that could be a concern for my tiny quadcopter
[12:25] <Laurenceb_> they use diydrones code
[12:25] <Randomskk> though I could not use a kalman
[12:25] <Randomskk> I think it'd be helpful to have though, so hm
[12:25] <Laurenceb_> atm i have everything accept pipextreme running on one core
[12:25] <Randomskk> maybe get a higher end cpu
[12:25] <Laurenceb_> i dont see a problem is its well designed
[12:26] <Randomskk> you think you could have a kalman and other stuff on one cpu?
[12:26] <Laurenceb_> i havent actually written all the code yet, but im working on an NVIC based system
[12:26] <Randomskk> the nvic is super hot, so yea
[12:26] <Laurenceb_> that would allow multiple pipextreme devices as well
[12:26] <Randomskk> hmm
[12:26] <Laurenceb_> i have UAVtalk ports that can connect to pipextreme devices
[12:27] <Randomskk> I really need to decide on whether I should try getting a bldc working with a new stm32 first, or try getting a tiny quadcopter working with prebought motor controllers first
[12:27] <Laurenceb_> you can have multiple instances
[12:27] <Laurenceb_> also you can run zigbee off usart1/2 at the same time
[12:27] <Laurenceb_> ive worked out all the timing for this, but havent finished all the code
[12:27] <Laurenceb_> ive just tested parts to see how feasible it is
[12:28] <Laurenceb_> im also going to speed up the kalman to 150hz
[12:28] <Laurenceb_> and oversample the accel and magno then dsp filter
[12:28] <Randomskk> all on one core?
[12:28] <Laurenceb_> yes
[12:28] <Randomskk> plus the control feedback?
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> yes
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> everything
[12:29] <Randomskk> I see
[12:29] <Randomskk> that would be ideal
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> and no RTOS XD
[12:29] <nosebleedKT> Randomskk: do i need other tools to solder SMD or i can use the same things as for through hole?
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> basically as i see it at the moment i can use NVIC pre-emption groups to divide up the tasks
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> ill explain, hang on
[12:30] <Laurenceb_> 1)theres a main loop, this logs data to SD card and talks to si4432 over spi, all using DMA, the pipextreme codebased is used together with the si4432 internal 64byte buffers
[12:31] <Laurenceb_> 1 code is half done -0 i have the SD working, but cant test the pipextreme without a groundstation
[12:31] <Randomskk> nosebleedKT: normal iron works. reflow is easier.
[12:32] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: right, okay
[12:32] <Laurenceb_> 2)theres an EXTI interrupt running off imu data ready pins, this runs a state machine to enable to i2c hardware in interrupt driven mode to read the correct sensors
[12:32] <Randomskk> haha okay, neat
[12:32] <Randomskk> so every time the sensors have data ready, the stm32 automatically reads the new values into memory
[12:32] <Laurenceb_> 2 code is presently using polled i2c and running the kalman directly, this gives me 125hz. Openpilot have interrupt i2c in their codebase
[12:32] <Laurenceb_> yes
[12:34] <Laurenceb_> 3)i2c interrupt runs a state machine to organise the varoious bytes, and do dsp filtering. When the kalman is ready to run it triggers an internal software isr using CMSIS functions to 'hack' the NVIC
[12:34] <Laurenceb_> 3 ive tested this stuff but atm im not running it on the hardware
[12:35] <Laurenceb_> 4)kalman runs inside the low priority ground software triggered isr
[12:36] <Laurenceb_> 4 this allows other interrupts to nest inside it - as it can take around 7ms to run. The kalman checks the gps DMA before it runs and loads any gps data
[12:36] <Laurenceb_> thats all running atm
[12:36] <Randomskk> that's pretty cool
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[12:37] <Laurenceb_> 5) theres also USART1 interrupts that run a UAVtalk state machine . This code is done atm, and allows you to plug in a usb dongle and connect directly to the groundstation - it thinks its connected via pipextreme
[12:37] <Laurenceb_> or you can use zigbee modules on usaRT1
[12:37] <Laurenceb_> THIS IS DONE AND WORKING ATM
[12:37] <Laurenceb_> arg capslock
[12:38] <Laurenceb_> also very very useful for debugging
[12:38] <Laurenceb_> im doing all imu debugging like this atm
[12:38] <Randomskk> okay sweet
[12:38] <Randomskk> so basically a single stm32 can probably do all the stuff for a single quadcopter
[12:39] <Laurenceb_> theres also USART2 stuck on another couple of DMA channels, atm its unused, but it could be used for more telemetery and read out in whatever place you wanted
[12:39] <Randomskk> and then I guess I'd have a second chip do the swarming, mission control and computer vision
[12:39] <Laurenceb_> or theres rs485 on usart2 to use for industrial servos or somehting
[12:39] <Laurenceb_> thats about it XD
[12:40] <Laurenceb_> atm im kind of working on tying up the i2c state machine thingy with the EXTI trigger
[12:40] <Laurenceb_> theres an i2c mutex thingy, if the i2c is idle the exti has to start it running
[12:41] <Laurenceb_> otherwise it leaves a message for the i2c isr to say another sensor needs to be read
[12:42] <Laurenceb_> everyone moans about the i2c hardware buffering on stm32, but its actually really handy
[12:43] <Randomskk> I bet
[12:43] <Randomskk> lets you do things like that.
[12:44] <Randomskk> hmmm okay
[12:44] <Randomskk> in which case I think my plan of attack is to get an stm32 based motor controller working asap
[12:44] <Randomskk> then once that's done, design a single board quadcopter with stm32 cpu, imu, stm32 motor controllers, etc and get it flying
[12:45] <Randomskk> and I guess for revision two add a camera
[12:45] <Randomskk> and then try and get it all done and useful in time for being able to play with swarming for my 4th year project
[12:45] <Randomskk> with some fallback 4th year projects if it doesn't come through
[12:46] <Laurenceb_> cool
[12:46] <Laurenceb_> the openpilot kalman filter is pretty nice
[12:46] <Laurenceb_> im not sure how good paparazzi is
[12:46] <Randomskk> yea, I think I'm going to aim to reuse as much software as possible really
[12:46] <Randomskk> so I'll see what I can get
[12:46] <Randomskk> in which case my more pressing decision is whether to get one of those quadshots
[12:47] <Laurenceb_> the insane inline code on openpilot seems to speed things up by ~50%
[12:47] <Laurenceb_> its about 10K floating points ops/iteration
[12:48] <Randomskk> and yet it manages like >100hz?
[12:48] <Randomskk> decent
[12:49] <Laurenceb_> stm32 with codesourcery is over 1MFLOP
[12:49] <Randomskk> does codesourcery make a big difference compared to vanilla gcc?
[12:49] <Laurenceb_> aiui massive
[12:50] <Randomskk> huh, okay
[12:50] <Laurenceb_> but i could be out of data, GCC math lib may have been patched
[12:50] <Randomskk> I'll have a play
[12:50] <Laurenceb_> atm its running at 125hz
[12:50] <Laurenceb_> but i have polled i2c read at the start of the isr - if that goes it looks like 150hz will wokr
[12:51] <Randomskk> nice
[12:51] <Laurenceb_> i added a few features - WGS84 gravity model and gps noise matrices generated from UBX packets
[12:52] <Laurenceb_> then it uses USGS magnetic model run with gps time
[12:52] <Randomskk> does the gravity model really make a big difference to the imu?
[12:52] <Randomskk> that's pretty neat
[12:52] <Laurenceb_> if the gps fix is poor and it has to 'coast' on imu then yes
[12:52] <Randomskk> ah fair enough, nice
[12:53] <Laurenceb_> but more importantly is calibrating the sensors, and low drift accel
[12:53] <SpeedEvil> Modern accels can actually measure differences in height.
[12:53] <Laurenceb_> i did that on my pc with matlab/octave code
[12:53] <SpeedEvil> (admittedly typically only one or two bits for 30km)
[12:53] <Laurenceb_> the ST accel is very nice for bias offset
[12:53] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: the calibration?
[12:53] <SpeedEvil> And the global variation in G is much larger than that
[12:53] <Laurenceb_> yes
[12:53] <Randomskk> right, okay
[12:54] <Randomskk> I guess you'd have to do that for every unit
[12:54] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: thats a feature i need to add - using the UAVtalk raw format
[12:54] <Randomskk> but eh, even for ten units that's doable
[12:54] <Laurenceb_> then aiui OpenPilot GUI can help you calibrate
[12:54] <Laurenceb_> a little easier
[12:54] <Randomskk> what kind of calibration is it? like, what do you have to do?
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> a bunch of ten or so random stationary positions
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> then its uses newton raphson to tweak the gain and bias until they all fit of a sphere
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> *on
[12:55] <Randomskk> aaah neat.
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> fairly basic maths
[12:55] <Randomskk> yea
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> just jacobians
[12:56] <Randomskk> easy enough to do calibration then though
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> i found the accel gain changes with each range setting
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> which was slightly annoying
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: What sort of random pointing error do you think you get - over the medium term?
[12:56] <Randomskk> do you change the range in flight?
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> From accel + mag
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> my imu drifted by 1Km after i changed the range
[12:57] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: not any more
[12:57] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: its dominated by magnetic permiability of stuff on the pcb
[12:57] <Laurenceb_> about 0.3degrees RMS pointing error iirc
[12:57] <Laurenceb_> after calibration
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[12:57] <SpeedEvil> That's insanely good.
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> i was hoping for better :P
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> In principle, could you calibrate out the permeability?
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> thats a little less than geckosenator got
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> he used nonlinearity as well
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> Ah - you're assuming the sensors are linear?
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> yes
[12:59] <Laurenceb_> i dont know.... if you have a load of permeable objects around the sensor..
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> So the hysterisis of the stuff on the PCB comes into play
[12:59] <Laurenceb_> the maths escapes me right now
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[12:59] <Laurenceb_> yes
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> Are most materials not linear around that low a field?
[12:59] <Laurenceb_> they are pretty linear
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> I suppose I don't know about stiff like nickel in components
[12:59] <Laurenceb_> but when it comes down to those sort of errors...
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> Yup.
[13:00] <Laurenceb_> ~0.1% shift
[13:00] <Laurenceb_> bbl, time for some food
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> Is there any real-life use-case where .3 degrees is not quite good enough?
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> Wave.
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[13:24] <Elwell> SpeedEvil: yeah, I'm sitting on top of such a use-case :-)
[13:25] <SpeedEvil> I mean in RC use
[13:26] <Elwell> heh. what about http://cast.web.cern.ch/CAST/ then -- steering 'telescope' (old magnet)
[13:26] <SpeedEvil> Where you're unlikely to be able to keep that pointing to any significant degree in the face of gusts and stuff, and the wind will blow you off by far more than that.
[13:27] <SpeedEvil> Oh - that's sane, yes
[13:27] <SpeedEvil> .3 degrees will at least get you to the moon
[13:29] <Laurenceb_> back
[13:29] <Laurenceb_> http://www.springerlink.com/content/r31853p8m4567651/
[13:30] <Laurenceb_> this looks relevant to my interests
[13:30] <Elwell> Keywords Breast motion \o/
[13:31] <Dan-K2VOL> hahaha
[13:31] <Dan-K2VOL> hoping for good photos on that experiment?
[13:33] <Laurenceb_> no photos of the setup for the figure5 graphs :(
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[13:39] <Dan-K2VOL> hehhe
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[14:17] <daveake> ping DanielRichman
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[14:20] <Randomskk> daveake: anything habitat related?
[14:20] <daveake> might be :)
[14:20] <daveake> Just need a payload uploaded
[14:21] <Randomskk> I can do that for you
[14:21] <daveake> Volunteering? :)
[14:21] <daveake> Cool
[14:21] <daveake> http://www.pastie.org/2537495
[14:21] <daveake> There's already an old one with the same name - just replace that please.
[14:23] <Randomskk> done
[14:23] <daveake> Cheers :D
[14:23] <Randomskk> should update on dl-fldigi in a few minutes as the cache clears
[14:23] <Randomskk> and should parse correctly instantly
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[14:24] <daveake> Working :-). Excellent, TVM :)
[14:24] <Randomskk> np
[14:25] <daveake> Just missing a couple of fields in the panel.
[14:25] <SamSilver_> http://www.gizmag.com/nasa-satellite-will-crash-back-to-earth-in-the-next-few-weeks/19827/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=60b843f602-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email
[14:26] <Randomskk> if you have new fields for the tracker, that's a different thing - they might need naming
[14:26] <costyn_> So yea, what would you guys recommend a person with no HAM radio experience to use as a receiver for telemetry data (planning on using a NTX2 to send data). Getting a hf/vhf/uhf transciever might be a bit too expensive for just a couple of balloon launches.
[14:26] <daveake> Only showing 1 temperature; not showing direction; not showing the "FlightMode". I remember Daniel had to rename those fields byt I don't remember what to
[14:27] <Randomskk> costyn_: sadly that is what most people end up having to do, there's not really much alternative that's anything like as sensitive
[14:27] <daveake> They'll be in the Buzz payload, if that helps.
[14:27] <Randomskk> should it really be called temp_iext?
[14:27] <costyn_> Randomskk: ok, because you need a really good radio to pick up the faint signals from the NTX2
[14:28] <costyn_> ?
[14:28] <Randomskk> costyn_: basically. at a distance.
[14:28] <Randomskk> daveake: and I think we require 'bearing' for that to be shown, not 'direction'
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[14:28] <Randomskk> also your flight mode thing is probably not something that's been done before so I guess that doesn't have a name yet
[14:28] <daveake> That's one, I remember now :)
[14:28] <costyn_> Randomskk: ok, alternatively I could just find someone to help out who already has a radio and the experience I guess :)
[14:28] <Randomskk> daveake: you have "temp_iext"
[14:28] <Randomskk> costyn_: exactly
[14:29] <costyn_> Randomskk: thanks
[14:29] <Randomskk> a lot of radio amateurs enjoy helping, so there might be some nearby
[14:29] <daveake> Daniel did add it, and even got it t map the number to the meaning
[14:29] <Randomskk> plus there's the whole DL system, but it's probably best if you have a radio for the final finding
[14:29] <Randomskk> daveake: that's a different thing
[14:29] <costyn_> Randomskk: I'm sure there are; now I just have to convince the other team members that we need outside help :)
[14:29] <daveake> costyn_ I bought an AOR AR 8000 on ebay. It works very well, and I've been very pleased with it. Not that I have experience of anything else to compare it with.
[14:29] <Randomskk> he wrote the filter to map the number to the meaning, but totally separate from what anything is called in the flight doc, there's code on spacenear.us that displays the values
[14:29] <daveake> Ah, OK.
[14:29] <Randomskk> and that code has a list of how to display names from couch docs
[14:30] <Randomskk> oh crucially also
[14:30] <costyn_> daveake: ok, thanks for the tip; that does RTTY as well or do you decode it with something else?
[14:30] <Randomskk> the document you just gave me doesn't specify the filter which daniel wrote
[14:30] <daveake> It's no problem - I just asked him if it was possible, and next minute he was deep in the code !
[14:30] <Randomskk> so it's no longer getting run
[14:30] <daveake> Numbers are fine
[14:30] <Randomskk> but he just put all that effort into making it not be numbers :P
[14:30] <daveake> :p
[14:31] <Randomskk> anyway whatever name he had the not-numbers output might be identified by spacenear
[14:31] <daveake> ok, in that case I DEMAND they be strings :)
[14:31] <Randomskk> okay it looks like the filter was never added to your payload though, maybe he didn't get to write your particular map
[14:31] <Randomskk> or it was for the other payloiad
[14:32] <daveake> It was for the Buzz payload, yes
[14:32] <Randomskk> aaaah
[14:32] <daveake> This one is very similar, just doesn't have the pressure sensor
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[14:34] <Randomskk> got it, okay
[14:35] <Randomskk> daveake: okay so
[14:35] <Randomskk> I've changed it a bit
[14:35] <Randomskk> flightmode -> flight_mode
[14:36] <Randomskk> temp_iext -> temp_ext
[14:36] <Randomskk> and added the filter
[14:36] <daveake> I'll take note for next time
[14:36] <daveake> temp_iext was a typo
[14:36] <Randomskk> oh and direction -> bearing
[14:36] <Randomskk> so it should all work fine now
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[14:36] <daveake> Cheers :)
[14:37] <daveake> Right, now to go and find the temp sensors so I can solder them on :)
[14:37] <costyn_> Are there any other reliable methods of payload recovery besides SMS with coordinates after landing and/or real-time tracking?
[14:37] <Randomskk> not really
[14:37] <Randomskk> there's SPOT, which is a satellite service
[14:37] <Randomskk> but it's very slow and hard ish to do and fairly expensive
[14:38] <costyn_> what about APRS?
[14:38] <daveake> I looked at those. Device cost is OK but the rental seemed expensive
[14:38] <Randomskk> not legal in the UK
[14:38] <Randomskk> well - not legal to transmit using an amateur license from an airborne payload
[14:38] <Randomskk> which means no 2m band
[14:38] <Randomskk> which means no 144mhz aprs
[14:38] <costyn_> Randomskk: ok :)
[14:38] <daveake> Stick a big label on it with your name and number.
[14:39] <costyn_> Randomskk: that sounds like it will not be legal here in NL either
[14:39] <Randomskk> oh I think it might well be
[14:39] <costyn_> daveake: yea :) gonna be doing that, but if a balloon lands in a forest and there's no one to see it... does it make a sound :P
[14:39] <fsphil> I remember Tim saying amateur radio was fine in NL from balloons
[14:39] <fsphil> but check first :)
[14:39] <daveake> :-). It does if you put a piezo sounder on it.
[14:40] <daveake> I did. That and the hi-viz tape helped a lot.
[14:40] <costyn_> daveake: noted :)
[14:40] <costyn_> daveake: did you have the piezo beep every once in a while?
[14:40] <daveake> Mine landed in someone's gardden. We knew roughly where by DF'ing with the yagi, but still couldn't see it. Then I heard the piezeo whistling away.
[14:41] <fsphil> daveake, you should put some dry ice in the buzz1 box
[14:41] <daveake> Er, no, I ran out of time so I just gave it its own PP3 :p
[14:41] <daveake> :D
[14:41] <costyn_> daveake: ok cool
[14:41] <fsphil> release it after landing :)
[14:41] <daveake> What have I started? ;)
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[14:42] <daveake> Looking at the map for cloud2, this GPS (Ublox) has a very different "bounce shape" to the Lassen in buzz.
[14:42] <daveake> Drawing a kinda vertical line
[14:43] <daveake> Altitude is a lot more spiky too, but it is switched to aircraft mode.
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[14:58] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: I looked at MAVlink and UAVtalk for the comms
[14:58] <Laurenceb_> ive gone for UAVtalk as its got more documentation
[14:58] <daveake> Off out, to drop off a cat and pick up the helium.
[14:59] <Laurenceb_> but both the ground stations look good
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[16:42] <number10> lol
[16:43] <smea> welcome smeal
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[16:48] Nick change: smea -> SamSilver_
[16:52] <daveake> mmm ... smeal. Hungry.
[16:53] <SamSilver_> super size me
[16:55] <fsphil> smeagle
[16:57] <daveake> Oh, that reminds me .... years ago was in the USA and ordered a meal in a Wendy's. Judging by her size, the girl serving had obviously been feasting on their burgers for a good few years, and asked "Do you want to 'Go Large'". OK I replied. So she went, and got replaced by an another girl who dwarfed the first one. It was really hard not to laugh out loud.
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[17:18] <daveake> Looking at the predictions for the weekend, a launch of cloud2 on Saturday will have it landing somewhere in Suffolk. Flight time estimage is 2.5 hours; drive time estimate is 2.5 hours also!
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[17:34] <mattltm> 305M of external cat5 cable + broken box / huge tangle = unhappy mattltm :(
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[17:43] <number10> looks like norfolk daveake http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=511b45e1da034c1230b4fd528ba355b44edd4d95 or do I hae something wrong
[17:44] <number10> time was late -
[17:44] <daveake> Launching from Berkshire
[17:45] <number10> aha - you have NOTAM or is small balloon?
[17:45] <daveake> WAITING for NOTAM
[17:45] <daveake> Will call tomorrow
[17:47] <daveake> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=f7e22aa399908267ed1b63136428469c52a3f10e
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[17:55] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:58] <daveake> LO LL
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[18:42] <Lunar_Lander> how are you daveake?
[18:43] <daveake> Not bad. Got Cloud2 wired up now, transmitting and uploading.
[18:43] <daveake> Just need to make the cutdown
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[18:48] <number10> take some pics daveake
[18:48] <number10> they are nice to see
[18:51] <daveake> I will
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[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> cool
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[19:07] <Randomskk> hey Laurenceb_, around?
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[19:49] <MickMondo> Hi, I was on here the other day asking about the check sum at the end of the data, I now have that sorted out but just wanted to ask, about the Coordinates which I'm using. I use the NMEA sentence which uses DD,MM.mmmm and DDD,MM.mmmm . These normally have a N/S/E/W but the UKHAS protocol says to use +/- instead, have I put them in the correct place ? Also I'd like my payload added to
[19:49] <MickMondo> the fldigi drop-down menu including con fig data, can I use the payload document generator that HABITAT used &?
[19:49] <MickMondo> here's my new data string below: now 8 bit ...
[19:49] <MickMondo> $MONDO,006,07:48:21,+5132.9824,+00038.0675,00048,000.0,000.0,00.0AS,+23TI*6F
[19:49] <Upu> you can put +'s and -'s in
[19:49] <Upu> you can check the tracker "gets it" here :
[19:49] Action: Upu brb
[19:49] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:common_coding_errors_payload_testing
[19:50] <Upu> wait wrong link
[19:50] <Upu> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/test.php
[19:50] <Upu> except
[19:50] <DanielRichman> that link will just say [uploaded to habitat]
[19:50] <Upu> I'm not sure that sworking
[19:50] <Upu> any test facility atm ?
[19:50] <DanielRichman> well yes and no.
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[19:51] <DanielRichman> yes: it will appear on spacenear.us if it works
[19:51] <DanielRichman> no: we're adding proper testing asap
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[19:51] <DanielRichman> i.e., a test page where you can paste a string and see the parsed data
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[19:51] <Upu> ok
[19:51] <Upu> it didn't work MickMondo :)
[19:51] <DanielRichman> have you created a flight document?
[19:51] <MickMondo> ar No how do I do that..?
[19:52] <Upu> yeah that might help :)
[19:52] <Upu> so the tracker knows what your strings are
[19:52] <DanielRichman> http://habhub.org/genpayload
[19:52] <MickMondo> ok I'll do that
[19:53] <MickMondo> cheers
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[19:59] <Laurenceb> can an ISR return in c?
[19:59] <Laurenceb> as in can i stick return void in an isr?
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[20:00] <DanielRichman> I don't see why not
[20:00] <daveake> I can't think of why not either
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[20:01] <Laurenceb> coolio
[20:01] <jcoxon> rarrr weekend starts here
[20:02] <mattltm> I wish :(
[20:03] <jcoxon> it does for me
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[20:13] <Demon> Hello
[20:13] <Randomskk> hi
[20:13] <nosebleedKT> Hi
[20:13] <Demon> Is every one in the list AFK ?
[20:13] <Demon> Or live ?
[20:13] <MickMondo> Hi, the habhub.org/genpayload is the habitat one .. is that ok to use ..?
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[20:13] <jcoxon> Demon, people are usually lurking
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[20:14] <Demon> We plan to us APRS for gps tracking of our balloon
[20:14] <Demon> Is there anyone with any hint for us ?
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[20:15] <Demon> C'mon, within 40 lurker at least one is knowledgeable
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[20:16] <Demon> ?
[20:16] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[20:16] <Demon> Well well well ...
[20:16] <jcoxon> Demon, thats not fiar
[20:16] <jcoxon> fair*
[20:16] <jcoxon> a hint?
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[20:17] <jcoxon> is that what you want?
[20:17] <Demon> Or any advice
[20:17] <jcoxon> you a ham operator?
[20:17] <Demon> If you have some
[20:17] <Demon> That's the touchy question
[20:17] <Demon> A family member is, tough
[20:17] <Demon> He will be our advisor
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[20:18] <jcoxon> so you'll use his callsign?
[20:18] <Demon> So ? APRS a efficient/trusty system ?
[20:18] <jcoxon> Demon, in the US? very
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[20:18] <Demon> Montreal
[20:18] <jcoxon> again - yes
[20:18] Nick change: nosebleedKT_ -> nosebleedKT
[20:18] <Demon> Very close to New york
[20:18] <Demon> What output power should I look forward to ?
[20:19] <jcoxon> there are a number of kits
[20:19] <jcoxon> 300mW
[20:19] <Demon> That's enough ?
[20:19] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:19] <Demon> We'll receive by Igate
[20:19] <Demon> And the digipeaters are sometime far between each other
[20:19] <jcoxon> http://www.bigredbee.com/index.htm
[20:19] <jcoxon> as a suggestion
[20:20] <Demon> Whats the theory range of 300 mw ?
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[20:20] <Demon> I mean, it seems way underpowered
[20:20] <jcoxon> at altitude hundreds of miles
[20:20] <Randomskk> infinity
[20:20] <Randomskk> in theory.
[20:20] <jcoxon> Demon, pah in the UK we use 10mW
[20:20] <jcoxon> and we get 300miles
[20:20] <Demon> ?
[20:21] <Demon> Yes, with digipeaters everywhere
[20:21] <Randomskk> no, with one receiver
[20:21] <Randomskk> and no digipeaters
[20:21] <Demon> That's impressive
[20:21] <Demon> Directional, at least ?
[20:21] <Randomskk> we don't use APRS, either
[20:21] <Randomskk> not on the payload.
[20:21] <Demon> I see
[20:21] <Randomskk> and actually I don't think the receiver was either
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[20:21] <TimZaman> hi
[20:22] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[20:22] <Demon> I read 300mw was only good to a couple of miles. Utmost surprising.
[20:22] <Randomskk> on the ground, yes
[20:22] <Demon> And then, 25W digipeaters only have 100 km range
[20:22] <Randomskk> on the ground
[20:22] <Demon> The balloon will have to land
[20:22] <TimZaman> i got a cutdown thingy written down http://www.timzaman.nl/?p=1878&lang=en
[20:22] <TimZaman> also anntenna making thingy http://www.timzaman.nl/?p=1888&lang=en
[20:23] <Randomskk> generally by then you're close to it
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[20:23] <Randomskk> and can hear it easily anyway
[20:23] <mattltm> Demon: VHF and UHF are line of sight. The higher the balloon goes, the furthur the radio signal will be recived.
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[20:23] <mattltm> Thats why ground based systems have a much lower range.
[20:24] <Demon> Radomskk: We have no APRS receiver
[20:24] <Demon> Only aprs.fi to get our GPS coordinates
[20:24] <Randomskk> it's really worth getting a radio that can receive your payload stuff, I would say
[20:24] <Demon> Sure is
[20:25] <Demon> TimZaman, we can calculate the balloon burst altitude anyway
[20:25] <Demon> So why bother ?
[20:25] <TimZaman> Demon: bother with what
[20:25] <Randomskk> sometimes balloons don't play nicely, and other times you want to control when you separate
[20:26] <Demon> I see
[20:26] <TimZaman> Sometimes? Balloons are friggin unpredictable, winds are too.
[20:27] <Demon> How acurate is this website's balloon trajectory calculator ?
[20:27] <DanielRichman> TimZaman: hi there
[20:27] <Demon> Can it be trusted ?
[20:27] <TimZaman> hi daniel
[20:27] <Randomskk> Demon: it can "be trusted", but it will get more accurate the closer to launch you get.
[20:27] <TimZaman> Demon: Generally.. yeah kinda
[20:27] <TimZaman> indeed
[20:27] <Randomskk> at a day or two away, it will give you a good idea of the general direction the balloon will go in
[20:27] <TimZaman> but still, it was off about 30km with my last launch
[20:27] <Randomskk> on launch, it'l probably have the landing location accurate enough to go drive to the nearby town
[20:28] <TimZaman> and, one week before launch, it was off 200km at least
[20:28] <Randomskk> at burst, it'l probably guess landing well enough to go set up camp
[20:28] <Randomskk> by the last 1km of descent, it'l probably be within a few tens of metres
[20:28] <DanielRichman> TimZaman: I notice that your web server appears to be downloading data from teh habitat database for your callsign every 10 seconds or so
[20:28] <TimZaman> Daniel: still!?
[20:28] <DanielRichman> yup
[20:28] <TimZaman> i thought i added a few zeros at mission control
[20:29] <DanielRichman> k 10 seconds is wrong; mebe 60 seconds average
[20:29] <TimZaman> moment
[20:29] <DanielRichman> but yeah it's not too bad because we can take the hits but it's a little odd ;-)
[20:29] <Demon> So only using aprs.fi to get coordinates is somewhat suicide ?
[20:29] <TimZaman> moment
[20:29] <Randomskk> it might work
[20:29] <Demon> If it lands deeps in a valley, the link might cut
[20:29] <TimZaman> oh guys i didnt say. but the wrapup is ready! i invite you all to see it
[20:29] <TimZaman> http://www.timzaman.nl/?page_id=1106&lang=en
[20:30] <TimZaman> its just a 2.5min video
[20:30] <Demon> So 10mw seems overpowered to get signal when it'll land on the ground, amiright ?
[20:30] <TimZaman> daniel ahhhh can it be that it's every 50seconds? :)
[20:30] <Demon> To get trough all the trees etc.
[20:31] <Demon> ?
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[20:31] <TimZaman> because i added too little zeros. i made 5sec into 50sec. for instance, i pollled fsphil's latest image every 10 seconds, i set that too 1000sec
[20:31] <TimZaman> ill turn it up to 50k
[20:31] <Randomskk> TimZaman: more regular than that it looks like
[20:32] <Randomskk> oh though is that also for every person who has it open?
[20:32] <TimZaman> Randomskk: yeah if there are multiple people on it, it will poll it more often ofcrouse
[20:32] <TimZaman> Randomskk: Yep! :)
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[20:32] <Randomskk> okay, well basically it's no big deal but like
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> hi TimZaman, nice updates :) (I mean antenna and cutdown as I know the writeup already :))
[20:32] <Demon> I'd like an answer
[20:32] <Randomskk> the document you're fetching from habitat basically never changes
[20:32] <TimZaman> fixed.
[20:32] <Demon> If possible
[20:32] <Randomskk> wait
[20:32] <Randomskk> no, nevermind
[20:32] <Randomskk> okay so yea
[20:32] <Randomskk> it's fine
[20:33] <mattltm> Demon: We would all like answers. Please be patient.
[20:33] <Randomskk> Demon: to what exactly?
[20:33] <Randomskk> 10mW is the maximum we can use in the UK so it's what we use
[20:33] <mattltm> Demon: Have you read the UKHAS wiki?
[20:34] <Demon> To wether 10mw will be enough so that the nearest digipeater will receive even if the balloon has landed in the forest
[20:34] <Demon> Nope, but I sure will
[20:34] <TimZaman> Demon, be sure to change your nickname too
[20:34] <Randomskk> no, probably not. I really would try and avoid relying on digipeaters.
[20:34] <Demon> Someone just told me it was reliable
[20:34] <Demon> APRS at least
[20:35] <Demon> Why change the nickname ?
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[20:35] <Randomskk> while in the air, maybe, and you run the risk of really annoying a load of people
[20:35] <mattltm> 10mw at ground level will be useless. The UK launches use 434Mhz (Licence free in the UK) and have chase teams with radio recivers that can track the payload once it is on the ground.
[20:36] <mattltm> Some use sms tracking devices to send text messages too.
[20:36] <Demon> We are talking of someone with less budget
[20:36] <Demon> In an ideal world, we send the balloon up and get the gps coordinates back on aprs.fi
[20:36] <mattltm> I highly recomend you have a good look through the wiki then come back and start asking questions.
[20:37] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk
[20:37] <mattltm> ta Upu :0
[20:37] <TimZaman> Oh yeah, also, they want me to launch a SSDV launch at TEDx Delft
[20:37] <Randomskk> ooh nice
[20:37] <mattltm> very cool :)
[20:38] <TimZaman> yead
[20:38] <TimZaman> never heared of TED though
[20:38] <TimZaman> but okay
[20:39] <Upu> is the payload generator link on the Wiki anywhere ?
[20:39] <Demon> So aprs.fi + digipeaters is a no-no ?
[20:39] <fsphil> you need more sound effects in your videos TimZaman ;)
[20:39] <TimZaman> fsphil: i had such a friggin amount of fun with that
[20:39] <TimZaman> mac os 6 for the win
[20:40] <Randomskk> Upu: not that I know of
[20:40] <Upu> I'll take the Win
[20:40] <Randomskk> perhaps it should go on there
[20:40] <Randomskk> TimZaman: TED is super cool
[20:40] <Upu> just wondering where to put it
[20:40] <fsphil> Demon, I wouldn't rely on the coverage of other users -- nothing will beat having your own radio for aprs
[20:40] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol
[20:40] <Demon> Sure, but it's a low-cost one time only launch
[20:41] <Demon> Nothing fancy
[20:41] <Randomskk> Demon: but do you want to get it back?
[20:41] <Randomskk> a fair bit of this could probably do with touching up. does protocol still say to use semicolons?
[20:41] <fsphil> if you're patent on ebay, you can get some pretty cheap radios these days
[20:41] <Demon> Of course
[20:42] <Demon> If I used a 10mw APRS, I would be unable to receive any GPS coordinates upon landing
[20:42] <Demon> But when I think of it, the nearest digipeater's at 400m HAAT
[20:42] <fsphil> I'd worry about 10mw aprs though, I'd use more power. the protocol we use is designed for very low power, but aprs isn't
[20:42] <Demon> Most of them are, ski mountains are everywhere around montreal
[20:43] <Randomskk> yea, for aprs you want like 300mW+
[20:43] <Demon> Thanks
[20:43] <Demon> Such data is hard to get anywhere else
[20:44] <Upu> ok added it to the bottom of http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol if anyone thinks it can go somewhere else feel free to move it
[20:45] <Demon> This question might sound utmost newbie, but can any regular radio be tuned to the APRS frequency ?
[20:46] <Randomskk> many amateur radios can
[20:46] <Randomskk> a broadcast FM receiver couldn't
[20:47] <Demon> Thanks again
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> hi mattltm
[20:47] <Demon> But anyway, APRS's only data sent over voice
[20:48] <DanielRichman> TimZaman: I th ink it's still downloading every minute or so
[20:48] <DanielRichman> is that the correct frequency?
[20:49] <Demon> Helium's quite pricy
[20:49] <TimZaman> DanielRichman: maybe someone still has the "old" webpage open that polls it every minute?
[20:49] <fsphil> Demon, unfortunately yea
[20:50] <Demon> 30$ is what i'll have to pay to fill
[20:50] <Demon> Rumors say that helium ressources will be depleted in a few decades
[20:50] <Demon> Much more then rumors, in fact
[20:51] <eroomde> it's constantly being created
[20:51] <eroomde> just, not as fast as we use it
[20:51] <Demon> And that's the problem
[20:52] <DanielRichman> TimZaman: the polls are coming from an ip that appears to belong to a web server
[20:52] <eroomde> maybe we need more underground nuclear tests
[20:52] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: his PHP gets it
[20:52] <Randomskk> but it gets it every time someone requests the page
[20:52] <DanielRichman> 195.93.224.136
[20:52] <Randomskk> (can't do cross domain javascript)
[20:53] <Randomskk> Demon: only $30?
[20:53] <Randomskk> small balloon or cheap helium or both? :P
[20:53] <Demon> Good question
[20:53] <TimZaman> DanielRichman: webserver..?
[20:53] <Demon> Small balloon
[20:53] <griffonbot> Received email: "[UKHAS] Payload DOC"
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[20:53] <Demon> Not much will be brought up there
[20:53] <TimZaman> DanielRichman: yeah thats my hosting provider
[20:53] <Demon> A 640X480 keychain will be used to record
[20:53] <Demon> Weights near nothing
[20:54] <TimZaman> i am running ajaxthingy that polls every 50s. that was 5s during launch.. then i wanted to bring the load down after launch.. i thought i made it very high but forgot the zeros
[20:54] <DanielRichman> ok; that's OK. As I say, We don't really mind just thought it a little odd
[20:54] <TimZaman> no no
[20:54] <TimZaman> when everyone logs out now and reloads the page
[20:55] <TimZaman> it will be refreshed every 50000 seconds
[20:55] <TimZaman> i kinda want to keep it that way for next launch
[20:55] <TimZaman> because then i only have to subract a few zeros :)
[20:55] <griffonbot> Received email: Adam Greig "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[20:55] <Demon> By looking at the logged-in chat list, I can see high altitude ballooning interests quite a few
[20:56] <eroomde> Demon: the growth is amazing
[20:56] <eroomde> in 2006 there were about 6
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> It's inflating.
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[20:56] <Randomskk> ha ha
[20:57] <eroomde> i remember where we would PM each other at the height of a live balloon launch saying 'omg! 20 people!!!11one'
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> And rising in popularity.
[20:57] <Randomskk> ballooning in popularity you mean
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> It may burst.
[20:57] <fsphil> lol
[20:57] <fsphil> or float
[20:57] <eroomde> i suspect diffusion
[20:57] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Payload DOC"
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> Did I link these? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Solar-Oven-Baking-Bread-Vacuum-Tube-under-SUN-/260851510520?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbbf62cf8
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[20:58] <SpeedEvil> really cool
[20:58] <Demon> Well, once it'll reach 30 000 members it will go downhill until nobody comes here
[20:58] <fsphil> all the remaining members stuck in a tree
[20:59] <jcoxon> eroomde, omg 6 people!
[20:59] <eroomde> 6!
[20:59] <eroomde> we need some kind of national body
[20:59] <Upu> to be discussed at the confernece
[20:59] <NigelMoby> :o
[20:59] <Upu> spelling
[20:59] <Randomskk> how convenient that we're shortly having a conference to discuss that :P
[20:59] <NigelMoby> Hmm
[21:00] <NigelMoby> I have doubts
[21:00] <eroomde> this convenient
[21:00] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference ~ 12:30
[21:00] <fsphil> is it just me or does that picture look like a giant alien fish
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> cool SpeedEvil
[21:01] <eroomde> yeah it's odd
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> you can actually make them yourself
[21:01] <fsphil> alien fish?
[21:01] <Upu> I just mirrored the top of the image and then filled in the gap with Photoshop content aware
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> coating the inside of an umbrella with aluminum foil
[21:01] <Randomskk> haha oh wow
[21:01] <Randomskk> it used to be different iirc :P
[21:01] <Randomskk> now there is this epic alien fish thing
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[21:02] <eroomde> i'm sort of indifferent to a governing body. adding overhead should be absolutely the last resort for anything. but i think some co-ordination between ballooners could yeild two worthwhile things
[21:02] <Randomskk> the lens flare does look unfortunately like a tail
[21:02] <eroomde> 1) A way of managing launch sites and permissions that isn't DM
[21:02] <Upu> no one said aliens had to take human form, I for one bow to our fishy overlords
[21:02] <eroomde> 2) The 'I' word
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[21:02] <TimZaman> lol i love my new timelapse video from all the iamges from spacecameralive1. got some nice Philip Glass tunes going on
[21:02] <Upu> all up for discussion eroomde
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: Not quite - selective coatings make a big difference, as does vacuum
[21:03] <Demon> Well, you'd need to get high to see alien fishes
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> true
[21:03] <eroomde> Upu: yes I know
[21:03] <Demon> In both meanings of the word
[21:03] <Upu> Rob and Steve who suggested it
[21:04] <NigelMoby> As long as its made clear ukhas is not the legal entity responsible for launches.
[21:04] <eroomde> worth a discussion. but talk of governing bodies should only be a side effect of talk about what would make things easier for us. I want to start from fundamentals rather than jumping straight to voting for treasurers
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[21:05] <Upu> going to be an interesting discussion thats for sure
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> are you discussing that "Ballooning Club" idea that we once had?
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[21:06] <eroomde> I'm not sure what the purpose is. But as I say, talk of clubs and bodies are only 'merely' a way of implementing things that make habbing easier/safer. It's that bit that's important, and if forming a guiding body turns out to be the best way to do it, fine and dandy
[21:07] <eroomde> but saying 'ok let's form a governing body. ok, now what shall we do with it' would be the wrong way round
[21:08] <eroomde> I think the bumph on the web page (http://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference ) is very good
[21:08] <eroomde> in terms of what shoould be discussed
[21:09] <Randomskk> eroomde: what is the worthwhile 'I' word?
[21:09] <eroomde> insurance
[21:09] <Randomskk> ah, that one
[21:10] <eroomde> i should write my talk
[21:10] <Randomskk> I should get these radios working so I can write that talk
[21:10] <eroomde> time will fly otherwise
[21:10] <Randomskk> we're working on the habitat talk now :o
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[21:10] <eroomde> i lost all my media on the old laptop
[21:10] <Randomskk> be kind of embarassing to get to the radio talk and be like 'so these radios are cool, but not actually working atm'
[21:10] <Demon> Any issues with the 18km legal limit for GPS ?
[21:11] <Randomskk> eroomde: :( all the cool videos?
[21:11] <eroomde> need to recover it from various places
[21:11] <eroomde> Randomskk: lol
[21:11] <eroomde> could you make it a lightning talk?
[21:11] <jcoxon> Demon, you need gps that work above 18km
[21:11] <Demon> I mean, wont it cold start when it will be back under 18km ?
[21:11] <Randomskk> frankly yes, I keep pushing fo rhaving lightning talks
[21:11] <jcoxon> there are a few that do
[21:11] <eroomde> just 'so here's a cool thing we're playing with check it out kthnxbye'
[21:11] <mattltm> Demon: The answer to that is on the wiki ;)
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> ROFL er1k757_
[21:11] <Demon> jcoxon, i tought it was a legal limit
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> *eroomde
[21:11] <Randomskk> yea, because then we could also do e.g. the flow meter, a brief chat about the rocket, ed could talk about squirrel
[21:11] <jcoxon> nah
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[21:12] <Randomskk> well we could just use our 30min radio talk slot as a cusf lightning talks slot :P
[21:12] <jcoxon> Demon, the 'legal' bit is mis intepreted by most gps companies
[21:12] <eroomde> lol
[21:12] <eroomde> yep
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> it is either 18 km or 1000 knots
[21:12] <eroomde> i think i can fill 30 mins with ESA project quite easily :)
[21:12] <jcoxon> so they go for OR but others go for AND
[21:12] <eroomde> given it consumed 18 months of life
[21:12] <jcoxon> so chose one that is AND
[21:12] <Randomskk> haha
[21:12] <Randomskk> yea
[21:12] <jcoxon> e.g. a lassen IQ or a ublox
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde : you mean BEXUS?
[21:13] <jcoxon> Matt
[21:13] <jcoxon> mattltm,
[21:13] <eroomde> I'm interested in Dan Bowen's talk
[21:13] <Demon> So, using a 18KM gps's just running for trouble ?
[21:13] <eroomde> i guess that's via t'internet?
[21:13] <jcoxon> Demon, well most restart on descent
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: I do wonder if any of them have screwed it up and made it delimit at >1000kt and 18km, but not work if only one limit is exceeded
[21:13] <jcoxon> but its a shame as you miss out on great altitude data
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> everyone at my uni got an invitation for REXUS/BEXUS from DLR :P
[21:13] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: XOR?
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> That'd do it
[21:13] <Demon> Sure, but money does'nt grow on trees
[21:14] <Demon> The vid footage'll be fair enough for us
[21:14] <Randomskk> Demon: it's not like, the cheapest hobby
[21:14] <jcoxon> lassen iq is cheap
[21:14] <Demon> I noticed
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> Payloads grow on trees.
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:14] <Randomskk> unless you've already bought a bad GPS, the ones that work aren't really more expensive
[21:14] <eroomde> cheaper than model helicopters
[21:14] <mattltm> jcoxon: Yes?
[21:14] <eroomde> well actually scrap that, it probably isn't
[21:14] <Randomskk> model helicopters is like burning bags of fifty pound noes
[21:14] <jcoxon> i've worked out the code issue
[21:14] <Randomskk> notes*
[21:14] <Demon> I also do FPV
[21:14] <eroomde> it's £100 a go at least
[21:14] <eroomde> it's probably cheaper per air-minute
[21:15] <daveake> Model helis ... my other hobby :p
[21:15] <eroomde> but not per 'go'
[21:15] <mattltm> jcoxon: cool, over at #icmp...
[21:15] <Demon> Maybe send FPV by balloon ? That would sure be cool ... but wont work.
[21:15] <daveake> Money's for spending :)
[21:15] <eroomde> lol
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> there is a guy who had himself made a turbine-driven scale model of a Bell helicopter
[21:15] <Randomskk> ^this
[21:15] <eroomde> i just got suacepans
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> guess the price
[21:15] <eroomde> that's all my mobey gone
[21:15] <Randomskk> eroomde: I just went to the kitchen shop in town
[21:15] <Demon> 10 000
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> 25000 euros
[21:15] <eroomde> Randomskk: amazon deal for me
[21:15] <Randomskk> so much fun stuff
[21:15] <eroomde> i love it
[21:15] <eroomde> i can see my face in the roasting pan
[21:16] <Randomskk> a good chunk of it by josephjoseph
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> that heli model costs more than a new car!
[21:16] <eroomde> i just hope the food looks more appetizing
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> hey btw
[21:16] <Randomskk> like my new cutting boards, nested bowls/sieve/colander/measuring cups, new spatula and spoon, plus I got some bowls for eating from, and chopsticks, and and and
[21:16] <Demon> But wich is the most fun to pilot ?
[21:16] <Randomskk> also a set of knives
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> today there was a guy from Novosibirsk at university
[21:16] <Randomskk> decided to take the wok from home instead of getting a new one
[21:16] <eroomde> Randomskk: are you living out this year?
[21:16] <Randomskk> no :(
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> he was quite interested in my balloon program
[21:16] <Randomskk> so I'm still faced with a tiny crap kitchen and no oven
[21:16] <eroomde> why all the stuff?
[21:17] <Randomskk> I just want to cook more
[21:17] <Randomskk> hall food is expensive and not all that great
[21:17] <eroomde> well, you can get around crappy kitchens it's true
[21:17] <eroomde> just get 2 really good knives
[21:17] <eroomde> and a good saucepan with a thick base. that'll even out the weird-ass heat from a baby belling
[21:17] <Randomskk> probably one at a time. right now I have a cheap shit set of all the knives
[21:17] <Randomskk> really I'd like a nice chef's knife most of all
[21:17] <Lunar_Lander> is there IKEA in england?
[21:17] <eroomde> i own two knives. have not needed more
[21:17] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: oh god yes
[21:17] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:18] <Randomskk> tbh I think that's the way to go, but then need something to put them in and meh
[21:18] <eroomde> my entire bedroom is coming from them
[21:18] <Randomskk> also don't want to leave expensive knives in publically accessible gyp rooms
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[21:18] <eroomde> ust as soon as the next paycheck comes
[21:18] <eroomde> the last two months have been awful for me
[21:18] <eroomde> new road bike, new laptop, new car tires, new house, all the quarterly bills up front, new furniture, saucepans
[21:18] <eroomde> and car insurance just around the corner
[21:18] <Randomskk> fun times
[21:19] <Demon> Who sent up their watch to then be able to tell it went it space ?
[21:19] <eroomde> and only 2 mnths of salary so far
[21:19] <Demon> Woops, the way I spelt is barely understandable
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> it won't reach space
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> space starts 100 km above sea level
[21:20] <eroomde> Demon: we sent a bottle of port up once
[21:20] <eroomde> space port
[21:20] <eroomde> HAR HAR HAR
[21:20] <Lunar_Lander> LOL
[21:20] <eroomde> 6 out of 7 thought it tasted better than the control port in the double-blind test we conducted
[21:20] <eroomde> we know how to aprty
[21:20] <eroomde> party
[21:20] <jonsowman> haha
[21:20] <Demon> You sure do
[21:20] <fsphil> that'll be those healthy high energetic particles
[21:21] <fsphil> they add flavor
[21:21] <eroomde> well perhaps!
[21:21] <Demon> It got iradiated well enough
[21:21] <Demon> Solar wind flavor !
[21:21] <eroomde> proton juice
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> hey jonsowman
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[21:23] <Demon> To send up 500 grams, what will be the price for the appropriate balloon ?
[21:23] <eroomde> Demon: almost any weather balloon can take 500g
[21:23] <eroomde> the question is how high you want to take your 500g?
[21:24] <Demon> 30km's a fair goal ?
[21:24] <eroomde> yup
[21:24] <Demon> Then, just a guess
[21:24] <eroomde> that gets you your scount badge
[21:24] <fsphil> 1000g balloon will get to that, just over maybe
[21:24] <eroomde> scout*
[21:24] <eroomde> i would have thought even smaller than 1000g
[21:24] <jonsowman> hi Lunar_Lander
[21:24] <fsphil> with a 5m/s ascent my 1000g got to about 31km
[21:24] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[21:24] <fsphil> with 3.5m/s it got to 33km
[21:25] <Demon> I was rather talking about the price
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[21:25] <eroomde> Demon: http://cusf.co.uk/calc/
[21:25] <fsphil> payload with 500g in both cases
[21:25] <fsphil> was*
[21:25] <eroomde> aim for about 4m/s ascent rate
[21:25] <eroomde> and have a play
[21:25] <jonsowman> fine thanks, yourself?
[21:25] <eroomde> Demon: sorry if you mentioned earlier (i've come late to the party) but where are you based geographically?
[21:26] <Demon> Montreal
[21:26] <Demon> Where APRS originated yay !
[21:26] <eroomde> ah cool
[21:26] <fsphil> Demon, 1000g balloons cost around 50 GBP
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[21:26] <eroomde> someone has pointed you in natrium42 's direction?
[21:26] <Demon> Nope
[21:26] <eroomde> he's in waterloo
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[21:28] <Demon> Can't I just used a bunch of extra large condoms ?
[21:28] <Demon> Since they are mass produced, I bet it'll cost less.
[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:28] <eroomde> cube/square law not in your favour
[21:28] <eroomde> in terms of mass of latex per newton of lift
[21:28] <Demon> Ach yes
[21:28] <eroomde> probably will end up costing you more in He :)
[21:29] <eroomde> I want a unit named after me
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[21:29] <eroomde> i have a radio named after me, among a group of about 3 people
[21:30] <eroomde> ratio*
[21:30] <eroomde> it's called the Moore Awesome Ratio, a dimensionless number used in rockets
[21:30] <eroomde> it's the length of the rocket flame divided by the legnth of the rocket
[21:31] <eroomde> the higher the awesomer
[21:31] <Upu> lol
[21:31] <jcoxon> eroomde, hehe
[21:31] <jcoxon> i've got a ballooning term named after me
[21:31] <jcoxon> :-p
[21:32] <eroomde> lol
[21:32] <eroomde> who made that one up then?
[21:32] <fsphil> "That payload is well coxon'ed up that tree"
[21:32] <eroomde> nope
[21:32] <jcoxon> maybe you
[21:32] <eroomde> thankfully it's now more of a historical relic
[21:32] <Demon> In fact, 500gr might be over estimated. That's lucky for my wallet
[21:34] <jcoxon> fsphil, the coxon kilometer
[21:34] <daveake> and there's Bill Standard Time
[21:34] <fsphil> haha, sounds cool
[21:34] <Demon> Just call the firefighters
[21:34] <Demon> They helped me for such ordeals
[21:35] <eroomde> fsphil: it's not that cool!
[21:35] <eroomde> it's basically, if it's going to go wrong, it'll go wrong in the first kilometer altitude
[21:35] <fsphil> aaaah
[21:35] <eroomde> and it got so named because jcoxon provided a whole bunch of datapoints to support it :)
[21:35] <jcoxon> well
[21:35] <jcoxon> i was trailblazing
[21:35] <eroomde> so once you get passed the coxon kilometer, you might be ok
[21:36] <eroomde> oh sure, the frontier is a dangerous place
[21:36] <eroomde> s/passed/past
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[21:37] <jcoxon> hehe
[21:37] <eroomde> i especially remember that flight that doug was at too at EARS
[21:37] <jcoxon> 2double balloon flight?
[21:37] <eroomde> when at about 800m the radio went 'DIDLEEDIDLEEDIDLEEDIDLEEDIDLEEdidleeee.....did..........'
[21:38] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:38] <eroomde> that was the one that went straight upi and down
[21:38] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:38] <eroomde> landed within about 2m of launch
[21:38] <jcoxon> ummmmm
[21:38] <eroomde> i don't think ti was the double tho
[21:38] <jcoxon> eroomde, steve and i were remebering the flight we had to DF completely
[21:38] <eroomde> that was on the other side of the tree line if i remember correctly?
[21:39] <jcoxon> around hte whole of norfolk
[21:39] <eroomde> oh with the 1hz bacjup beeper beacon
[21:39] <eroomde> yeah i really enjoyed that
[21:39] <eroomde> that was a proper hair on your chest chase
[21:40] <eroomde> HABcon 2050 will be just like those current nasa conferences where they have all the apollo old boys on stage on comfy chairs just chatting about what they did in their day and reminiscing
[21:40] <jcoxon> hehe
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:40] <eroomde> 'do you remember that time when all we had was a once hertz beeper'
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> I am just thinking
[21:40] <eroomde> 'in my day young man, we had 4Mhz chips and we were tahnskful for it!'
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> the HF lab at Muenster works up to frequencies of 440 THz
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> that are IR lasers
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[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> I think optical communications will become important over time
[21:41] <eroomde> yeah
[21:41] <eroomde> just a shame it gets so absorbed
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[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:41] <eroomde> byt the atmosphere
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> Not at high enough powers.
[21:42] <eroomde> there have been chats at various stages about the payload strobing at the balloon with a telescope on the ground for comms
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> The numbers absolutely work
[21:42] <eroomde> would sidestep all the ofcom guff
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> Assuming no cloud
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> And that you don't end up pointing the scope at the sun
[21:43] <eroomde> lol
[21:43] <fsphil> I did that once...
[21:43] <eroomde> well, i think you'd just had a photodiode and wavelength BPF on the front
[21:43] <eroomde> no humans involved
[21:43] <fsphil> took me a minute to realise what the smell was
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> I've used binoculars to project the sun
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> Works well
[21:43] <fsphil> (I was projecting onto a wall, no eyes directly involved ;-)
[21:44] <fsphil> but some internal reflection managed to melt one of the eyepieces
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> Though for binocs, you do need a first surface mirror
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> (ideally)
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[21:48] <Demon> What are your average flight times ?
[21:49] <Demon> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Build-in-Antenna-NMEA-TTL-5V-Sirf-II-e-GPS-Module-Board-/180671218144?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a10d801e0
[21:49] <Demon> This seems to be a bargain
[21:49] <Demon> Considering at what price other sell gps modules
[21:50] <eroomde> Demon: maybe 2hrs up one hr down
[21:51] <eroomde> v roughly
[21:51] <Demon> Thats with 2.5m/s climb, right ?
[21:51] <eroomde> recently people have been messing around doing wierd things
[21:51] <eroomde> Demon: faster usually
[21:51] <eroomde> most aim for 3-5
[21:52] <eroomde> Demon: SirfII is very, very old
[21:52] <Demon> But it works
[21:52] <TimZaman> Demon: SIRF III is not sure to work. buy a ublox.
[21:52] <eroomde> try and get a Lassen IQ or anything with a ublox 4 or 5 chipset
[21:52] <eroomde> Demon: do you know for sure it works?
[21:53] <TimZaman> Demon: dont go cheap on the gps. i mean, the helium+balloon will fix you up with at least $150, so the extra 20$ on a proper GPS will be well spent
[21:53] <Demon> Mmh...
[21:53] <eroomde> i don't remember ever flying a sirf II
[21:53] <eroomde> certainly i haven't in the last 4 years
[21:53] <Upu> Demon apart from the ISM300 High Altitude build the SiRF III's tend to top out @ 18km
[21:53] <TimZaman> Upu is right
[21:54] <Upu> they have however released a funky new one that I've just asked if they can remove the silly altitude limit :
[21:54] <Demon> The 18km part is of no matter for me
[21:54] <Upu> le have been messing around doing wierd things
[21:54] <Upu> [22:51] <eroomde> Demon: faster usually
[21:54] <Upu> [22:51] <eroomde> most aim for 3-
[21:54] <Upu> err
[21:54] <Upu> fail
[21:54] <Upu> http://inventeksys.accountsupport.com/store/ISM420.html
[21:54] <TimZaman> Demon: i recommend the ublox 'gps bee' module at Seeedstudios.com - it performed 100% during my last launch, and i have experience with 5 other modules, this was the best.
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[21:54] <Upu> $24 each with an antenna SiRF IV
[21:54] <Upu> sorry not that one
[21:54] <eroomde> Demon: these gets used a lot too: http://www.falcom.de/products/gps-modules/fsa03/
[21:54] <Upu> http://inventeksys.accountsupport.com/store/ISM480.html
[21:54] <Upu> that one
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> is the gpsbee only available at seeedstudio?
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> I mean I ordered there now, but they don't have any retailers, right?
[21:55] <eroomde> right, g'night all
[21:55] <Upu> nn
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> gn8 eroomde
[21:56] <Demon> uuugh
[21:57] <Demon> What about the cheapest price for an APRS-able HAM radio ?
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> funny, Farnell says that the country of manufacture for the NTX2 is Mauritius
[21:59] <Hibby> Demon: if it's got audio in, it's APRS Happy
[21:59] <Hibby> the Chinese handies are good
[21:59] <Hibby> Puxing and Wouxun made
[21:59] <Demon> Yes, but not all may be able to tune at the exact frequency
[21:59] <Hibby> never given me a problem
[21:59] <Demon> Or I am just splattering nonsense
[22:00] <Hibby> #include <legal-disclaimer.h>
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> a friend of mine has a Siemens mobile as well as a chinese mobile
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[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> she said that the chinese one crashes when a person calls
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> and then she puts the SIM card into the Siemens to call back
[22:05] <Demon> ---meh
[22:06] <Demon> I wonder about the weight of an 1W Ham radio.
[22:08] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[22:09] <Lunar_Lander> the NTX2 weighs like 20 g or so
[22:09] <Lunar_Lander> a bigger transmitter shouldn't be much heavier
[22:09] <Lunar_Lander> or do you mean a complete system with a power supply?
[22:09] <Demon> But whats its power output ?
[22:09] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: ping
[22:09] <Lunar_Lander> 10 mW
[22:10] <Demon> The lower the weight i'll get, much less I'll spend in helium and balloon
[22:11] <Demon> By quite a lot
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[22:11] <daveake> The NTX2 is a svelt 5g
[22:12] <Demon> What about the theory range of an 1W APRS ?
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[22:12] <fsphil> in the air, a long way
[22:12] <Lunar_Lander> IIRC cubesats get equipped with 1W radios
[22:12] <Lunar_Lander> so if you can transmit from orbit, it should be allright on a balloon
[22:13] <Demon> Then I'll lose contact upon landing
[22:14] <Demon> Such an issue could be manageable
[22:14] <Demon> At least I'll get the last 30 seconds location
[22:14] <Demon> ....ugh.
[22:14] <fsphil> the plan would be to nearby the landing spot (using the prediction)
[22:15] <Demon> Some said it was'nt that accurate
[22:15] <fsphil> it'll be come more accurate as it falls
[22:15] <fsphil> (if you're using the spacenear.us tracker)
[22:16] <fsphil> even without the predictor though, if you knew where it was 500m up then you'd have no problem getting close enough to hear the signal again
[22:16] <Demon> ...with aprs.fi if you remember
[22:16] <fsphil> indeed, you really do need a radio with you
[22:17] <Demon> ...
[22:17] <daveake> That reminds me of a question ... how do you get the predictor to use the live payload data during the flight?
[22:17] <Demon> Seems right
[22:17] <fsphil> someone has to download the wind data and setup the parameters (burst altitude iirc)
[22:17] <fsphil> it's done manually atm
[22:17] <daveake> ah, ok
[22:18] <daveake> Sounds like a project for someone to automate it :)
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[22:18] <daveake> "This is where the balloon is so far; which tree is it going to land in?"
[22:20] <fsphil> my rule "if the ground has 10% tree cover, there's a 90% chance you'll land in it"
[22:20] <daveake> I managed the opposite :)
[22:22] Action: fsphil shall have his trusty 10m pole and saw in the car next time
[22:22] <daveake> Thanks for reminding me to pack my pole this weekend
[22:22] <daveake> (and no I don't say that to all the boys) lol
[22:24] <daveake> No chance of flying buzz1 this w/e so I'm getting cloud2 ready in the hope the wind doesn't get stronger than predicted.
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[22:25] <fsphil> winds are a bit stupid atm
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[22:25] <daveake> Yep
[22:25] <Demon> Is the 144-148 mhz much used by radio amateurs only to talk ?
[22:26] <Demon> Then there could be some interference with APRS,
[22:26] <fsphil> the aprs frequency (there will be one standard one) will be chat free
[22:26] <fsphil> here in the EU it's 144.800 mhz
[22:26] <Demon> Its of general knowledge ?
[22:26] <Demon> So they never tune for that frequency, then
[22:26] <Demon> 144.390 here
[22:27] <fsphil> pretty much yea - the aprs packets would cause too much noise to chat
[22:27] <fsphil> that's not to say someone won't try, but i'll be rare
[22:27] <fsphil> it'll*
[22:28] <Demon> Digipeaters repeat slowly, dont they ?
[22:28] <Demon> Almost one time per minute
[22:28] <fsphil> I'm not too familiar with aprs -- I think there's different kinds of digipeating.
[22:29] <fsphil> you don't want too much repeating happening when you're above a certain altitude, due to the coverage you could hit a lot of stations and cause a lot of traffic
[22:30] <Demon> Yes
[22:32] <fsphil> righty, bed time :) night all
[22:33] <daveake> nite
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[22:51] <Demon> DYI
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[23:02] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: sorry, back, still around?
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[23:14] <Demon> Hello again
[23:14] <Demon> Might found a way how to save on balloon size
[23:15] <Demon> Simply set the burst pressure to 25000 km instead.
[23:15] <Demon> Tough, is it high enough to provide a beautiful view of earth ?
[23:16] <Demon> (if anyone is still awake(
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[23:16] <Demon> .
[23:17] <Demon> Everyone sleeps I guess
[23:19] <Randomskk> 25k still gets nice photos
[23:19] <Demon> But what about wind up there ?
[23:21] <Demon> Having none of it would be nice
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[23:21] <Randomskk> not that much odds
[23:21] <Demon> ?
[23:22] <Demon> You mean the shuttle will be rocked side to side by the wind ?
[23:22] <Randomskk> doesn't make much difference, wind-wise
[23:22] <Demon> Ah...
[23:22] <Randomskk> not really
[23:22] <Demon> Great then
[23:22] <Demon> 'Cause we're a little tight on budget
[23:22] <Demon> Only interest is to see the black curvature of the earth
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[23:32] <juxta> ping Darkside
[23:33] <juxta> hi Randomskk
[23:33] <Randomskk> hi juxta
[23:33] <Lunar_Lander> hi juxta
[23:33] <juxta> was just wondering how one goes about altering the tracker title these days :)
[23:33] <juxta> hey Lunar_Lander
[23:33] <Randomskk> juxta: for spacenear.us it's no different than ever
[23:34] <juxta> no worries
[23:34] <juxta> all the field names etc are a bit more intelligent now, arent they?
[23:35] <Randomskk> yes a bit
[23:35] <Randomskk> I can't remember what the new names are exactly but
[23:35] <Randomskk> basically it uses thefield names from your flight document
[23:35] <Randomskk> all the parsed data is sent to the web thing
[23:35] <Randomskk> and if it knows about any of the names, it'l display them
[23:35] <juxta> great :)
[23:36] <Randomskk> and we can tell it about new names really easily
[23:36] <juxta> in that case I'll update the title later on this afternoon
[23:37] <Darkside> juxta: theres anothe rlaunch on saturday tho
[23:37] <juxta> OH
[23:37] <Darkside> daveakes
[23:37] <juxta> whoops
[23:37] <juxta> didn't realise
[23:38] <juxta> we'll leave it untouched then
[23:38] <Darkside> bbl
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[23:44] <Demon> MEUH
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[23:50] <Demon> Randomskk
[23:50] <Demon> What's the least high you'd go to get decent footage ?
[23:50] <Randomskk> oooh. 24k maybe.
[23:50] <Randomskk> you'll get nice footage the entire way though
[23:51] <Demon> Any under just is'nt interesting ?
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[23:51] <Demon> I mean, when does the sky starts to get black ?
[23:52] <Demon> With my low budget, I'm even considering 10K flights
[23:52] <Randomskk> not really all that much cheaper
[23:52] <Randomskk> your one off costs per flight dominate over the difference between 10k and 30k really, until you go down to like 6k and use foil balloons
[23:52] <Randomskk> though even then that's without cameras for payloads really
[23:53] <Demon> Well, the scenario where it drifts 200 km north is not to please me
[23:53] <Demon> But 10km flights woul'nt really be interesting
[23:53] <Demon> I mean, airliners go higher
[23:54] <Demon> ...ugh.
[23:56] <Demon> When does the sky turn black ?
[23:58] <Demon> ...
[23:58] <Demon> What about 20000 meters ?
[00:00] --- Fri Sep 16 2011