highaltitude.log.20110824

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[06:45] <earthshine> o/
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[08:22] <fsphil> anyone launching this weekend?
[08:22] <Darkside> dunnoi
[08:22] Action: Darkside us asking my uncle (a fluid power engineer) about valves for releasing helium
[08:23] <Darkside> looking for something small and ideally not reqiring 12v to operate
[08:23] Action: fsphil thought about passive valves
[08:23] <fsphil> but not for long
[08:24] <Darkside> passive valves?
[08:24] <fsphil> probably the wrong term
[08:24] <fsphil> ones that open when the pressure reaches a certain level
[08:27] <fsphil> if the pressure in the balloon starts increasing (SP effect?) then release some gas
[08:28] <fsphil> pressure relative to the outside
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[09:08] <Laurenceb_> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2394378&cid=37186596
[09:14] <Upu> Morning
[09:14] <Upu> When Stars-project comes back tell him I didn't launch with Hydrogen I was just present at a hydrogen launch don't want to give the wrong impression
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[10:03] <SpeedEvil> Morning.
[10:03] <SpeedEvil> Did it burst into flames, with a reporter going on about 'humanity' ?
[10:07] <daveake> "Oh, my! Get out of the way, please!" :)
[10:13] <Upu> no it took forever to inflate then went up like a rocket at about 8.5m/s
[10:14] Action: SpeedEvil is still pondering a natural gas launch at some point.
[10:15] <SpeedEvil> Technically, do you need permission to let go of party balloons?
[10:15] <Randomskk> so long as the entire thing, including payload, fits inside a 2m sphere I believe you don't
[10:16] <Randomskk> fits inside a 2m sphere at all times during the flight
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> radius or diameter?
[10:16] <Randomskk> diameter iirc
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> Is that at all times during the flight, or while in controlled airspace?
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> Or can you point me at a string to google for the regulations.
[10:17] <Randomskk> looking up the regulations would be better, but I can't remember what they're called :/
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> NP.
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> Thanks.
[10:20] <Randomskk> they've been on this chat before so searching logs for "2m sphere" might help
[10:22] <SamSilver> info on how to use tiny url?
[10:22] <SamSilver> anu tips
[10:22] <SamSilver> any
[10:22] <SamSilver> short cuts
[10:24] <SamSilver> http://tinyurl.com/44o4vbl
[10:31] <SpeedEvil> Umm - what?
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[10:32] <SpeedEvil> I can't view the URL behind the shorter link, even after logging into yahoo
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[10:34] <daveake> Same here
[10:35] <SamSilver> bugger
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[10:37] <SamSilver> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/message/10565
[10:39] <daveake> That works :)
[10:42] <SamSilver> seems there is a lot of folk pisssed of by silly "rule"
[10:42] <Randomskk> indeed
[10:42] <daveake> This "pre-announcement" thing does sound a bit arbritary.
[10:42] <Upu> I suspect this is the cage rattling that Eroomde predicted :)
[10:44] <daveake> If they want rules to prove the flight happened and reached the claimed height, then this one doesn't do either.
[10:44] <Randomskk> and in fact it's really kind of hard to do that.
[10:44] <Upu> The actual max alititude was only registered by 1 listener
[10:45] <Randomskk> yea, but it was a string properly received and with a checksum
[10:45] <Randomskk> being received by more listeners doesn't say much
[10:45] <daveake> Nope
[10:45] <Randomskk> given the time delay, multiple listeners could just watch the existing telemetry come in and copy it
[10:45] <Randomskk> there's no proof they received independently
[10:46] <Randomskk> and besides, there's no proof the payload was honest, either, or that all the listeners weren't collaborating
[10:46] <daveake> Indeed
[10:46] <Randomskk> I could set up six IPs and have them all pretend to hear a flight, with no balloon in the air even
[10:46] <daveake> Alt = Alt * 1.2 :)
[10:46] <daveake> Or that!
[10:46] <Randomskk> APRS is no better, I could transmit onto the local net from my radio at home with fake telemtry
[10:46] <Randomskk> telemetry* even
[10:46] <daveake> Yep
[10:47] <Randomskk> the payload could lie in any number of ways, if it does exist
[10:47] <fsphil> time each station receives first string can give a rough estimate of altitude
[10:47] <Randomskk> really it comes down to 1) trust and 2) that it doesn't /really/ matter
[10:47] <Randomskk> fsphil: yes, but not so rough that you can't fake it easily
[10:47] <daveake> Yep
[10:47] <Randomskk> I mean heck, 1.2x is the difference between first rx at 1km and first rx at 1.2km
[10:47] <Randomskk> you wouldn't blink an eye at that
[10:47] <Upu> really is a silly rule
[10:47] <fsphil> true
[10:47] <Upu> hoepfully they will scrub it
[10:47] <daveake> It is
[10:48] <fsphil> only way to be totally sure is to either watch it visually from multiple locations, or fly an independent tracker
[10:48] <Randomskk> both of which are harder than first apparent 
[10:48] <daveake> Half of me says "remember to register your attempt", and the other half says "sod 'em, they ignored Darkside's result"
[10:49] <Randomskk> watching it requires no cloud coverage and sufficiently accurate telescope mounts that you can guess altitude
[10:49] <fsphil> I'm not going to register my attempt
[10:49] <Randomskk> flying an independent tracker requires the verifier to bring it with them, attach it at the last minute and fly it...
[10:49] <Randomskk> and even then my payload could contain a GPS simulator and radio
[10:49] <Randomskk> I mean, really
[10:49] <Upu> Well lets see if they change their minds
[10:49] <Upu> if not
[10:49] <Randomskk> you have to trust people, not technology, here
[10:49] <daveake> I wouldn't want to end up with (say) the second highest flight according to them, but 3rd in reality
[10:50] <Upu> I'll just copy all the records across to UKHAS, integrate all ours and put the word Official in front of it job done
[10:50] <daveake> :)
[10:50] <Randomskk> hehe
[10:50] <fsphil> +1
[10:50] <Randomskk> aren't ours on a wiki anyone can edit, anyway?
[10:51] <Randomskk> though there could be some contention with the "UK" in "UKHAS"
[10:51] <daveake> It's just a hobby, not Formula 1 where everyone cheats!
[10:51] <Upu> yeah Randomskk
[10:51] <Upu> Can you have officially moderated pages on docuwiki ?
[10:51] <Randomskk> you can probably 'protect' pages though there might be a better way of doing this
[10:52] <Upu> might be worth doing
[10:52] <Upu> anyway
[10:52] <Upu> we know he's second in the world
[10:52] <DanielRichman> dokuwiki has a fairly complex acl system
[10:52] <DanielRichman> you can setup groups etc.
[10:52] <daveake> we do
[10:52] <Randomskk> and first in the UK :P
[10:53] <fsphil> first if you discount the current #1 cause it's not really amateur
[10:53] <daveake> except he's an aussie so it doesn't count ;)
[10:53] <Randomskk> national boundaries rapidly cease to mean anything more than how convenient it can be to meet people though, or convenient ways of breaking larger groups up into more manageable chunks
[10:53] <Randomskk> daveake: that balloon was launched by brits ;p
[10:53] <daveake> true
[10:53] <daveake> :)
[10:53] <Upu> what was the nationality of the person who let go of it :)
[10:54] <daveake> lol
[10:54] <fsphil> lol
[10:54] <fsphil> crikey!
[10:54] <Randomskk> ed did, so british
[10:54] <Randomskk> so there :P
[10:54] <daveake> sorted
[10:54] <number10> who filled the balloon?
[10:54] <Randomskk> also ed
[10:54] <number10> your gonna upset Darkside ;)
[10:55] Action: Upu pats Darkside
[10:55] <Randomskk> haha he made the payload and box
[10:55] <Randomskk> anyway somewhat besides the point
[10:55] <number10> who supplied the gps?
[10:55] <daveake> :)
[10:55] <GW8RAK> He was also too busy drinking to receive it :)
[10:55] <Randomskk> if we want UKHAS's wiki to record global records we should say words to that effect
[10:55] <Randomskk> and whether we want to keep a separate list for UK records, too
[10:56] <Randomskk> number10: probably china, depending on how you look at it
[10:56] <number10> lol Randomskk
[11:03] <daveake> If buzz1 sets any records then we'll need a separate section for the Intergalactic Alliance
[11:03] <fsphil> isn't that in cardiff?
[11:04] <daveake> You're thinking of Torchwood
[11:04] <fsphil> ahh
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[11:13] <daveake> What do people use as a filler tube for the larger Hyowee balloons? For my launch I used some 40mm waste pipe which fitted the Totex 1000g with a bit of a stretch. The Hwoyees though have much larger necks - around 70-80mm.
[11:13] <Randomskk> yea it's silly
[11:14] <daveake> Hwoyee*
[11:14] <Randomskk> so now what we do is wrap the neck around the narrow launch tube, avoid making terrible jokes, cable tie it on two or three times then - crucially - duct tape it on
[11:15] <daveake> Yeah, I thought of something like that but was worried about it leaking
[11:15] <daveake> Duct tape comes to the rescue again
[11:15] <Randomskk> leaking isn't your concern really
[11:15] <Randomskk> the helium wants to go up
[11:15] <Randomskk> not back down
[11:16] <daveake> Really?
[11:16] <daveake> :)
[11:16] <Randomskk> the balloon slipping off the launch tube is a much, much bigger concern
[11:16] <daveake> Got it
[11:17] <daveake> WIth the Totex, it was a tight fit on the tube. Can't remember how many cable ties but I'm sure I added the tape too
[11:17] <Randomskk> totex ones are normally okay even with just cable ties
[11:17] <Randomskk> hwoyee not so much
[11:17] <daveake> Cheers
[11:18] <GW8RAK> At launch, are the balloons actually pressurised? Or just lighter than air and the pressure only increases with decreasing atmospheric?
[11:19] <Randomskk> not typically pressurised, really
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[11:19] <Randomskk> you could fill them that much
[11:19] <GW8RAK> I was just thinking what would be the float altitude if you made them zero pressure?
[11:20] <GW8RAK> Oviously depends on starting size of balloon and amount of inflation
[11:21] <Randomskk> yes
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[12:09] <eroomde> GW8RAK: they are raerly pressurised
[12:09] <eroomde> in that, there is only ever a very very small differential pressure
[12:10] <eroomde> and it's a good enougb apprximation to say that the helium is at the ambient pressure
[12:10] <Darkside> eroomde: whats the average pressure in a latex balloon
[12:10] <Darkside> i.e. what kind of valve would i need
[12:10] <eroomde> and yep, in theory they can be Zero-pressure ified
[12:10] <eroomde> when we floated one of the ballat halos we got a very very stable float
[12:10] <GW8RAK> That's what I thought and the comment above about it slipping off the filing tube made me wonder about using it at zero pressure as a floater
[12:10] <eroomde> Darkside: the differential is piddly
[12:10] <eroomde> but i don't know exactly what
[12:10] <Darkside> what about the absolute
[12:10] <Darkside> oh i guss it wouldn't matter
[12:10] <eroomde> Darkside: same as outside
[12:11] <Darkside> i'm just thining about how to release gas from the balloon
[12:11] <eroomde> but it's the delta you're fighting with a valve
[12:11] <eroomde> anything would do it
[12:11] <Darkside> mm ok
[12:11] <eroomde> my sketch was a ping pong ball
[12:11] <Darkside> also need a way to conect it to the balloon
[12:11] <eroomde> pushed by a spring against an o-ring-lined hole in the bottom
[12:11] <Darkside> lol
[12:11] <eroomde> this is all built into a pvc tube
[12:11] <Darkside> i was going to use a proper electric valve
[12:11] <eroomde> just like the fill tube
[12:12] <eroomde> well, you need a big orifice to get any kind of non-geological-timescale flow out
[12:12] <GW8RAK> You need something like a pressure regulator Darkside. When the preset pressure is exceeded it opens
[12:12] <eroomde> so anyway, an actuator to pull the pingpong ball up against the spring
[12:12] <eroomde> letting helium flow around it and out of the hole
[12:13] <GW8RAK> The pressure won't be "high" so should be DIY'able
[12:13] <Darkside> eroomde: hmm ok
[12:13] <eroomde> you can also full the balloon with the same mechanism, i think
[12:13] <Darkside> ill have to look around for something
[12:13] <eroomde> with a quick release no return valve built into the pvc tube
[12:14] <eroomde> you can just click the helium line into it
[12:14] <eroomde> just like our fill rig
[12:14] <eroomde> but the balloon goes up with the fill rig, basically
[12:15] <Darkside> yeah
[12:15] <Darkside> i might look into that
[12:15] <Darkside> see if i can make something
[12:15] <Darkside> sad thing is it'll be one use :P
[12:15] <Darkside> as we'd probably have a cutdown beneath it
[12:15] <Darkside> i don't like hte idea of trying to get all the gas out of the balloon to make it descend
[12:16] <Darkside> i'd prefer to just cut away from the balloon
[12:16] <fsphil> big floppy balloons remaining attached is rarely a good thing
[12:16] <GW8RAK> Rather than cut away the balloon, why not use the cut down device to burst it?
[12:16] <Darkside> GW8RAK: i don't want to burst it
[12:16] <Darkside> i don't want any of the balloon
[12:16] <eroomde> keep it cheap and light then
[12:17] <Darkside> i think with eroomde's idea, it should be ok
[12:17] <eroomde> maybe some muscle wire to pull the pingpong ball up
[12:17] <Darkside> the ping pong ball idea is a good idea
[12:17] <Darkside> i'd probably ue a small solenoid
[12:17] <Darkside> its not going to be ultra light whatever we go
[12:17] <Darkside> whatever we do*
[12:19] <AndChat-> Afternoon sheepies
[12:19] Nick change: AndChat- -> NigeyMoby
[12:21] <SamSilver> my idea was to twist and untwist the latex neck using a servo
[12:21] <fsphil> welcome baa-ck
[12:21] <NigeyMoby> Lol good 1 Phil
[12:33] <NigeyMoby> Do we have a start time for the conference?
[12:34] <fsphil> not heard one yet
[12:34] <fsphil> do the rail tickets need to be booked in advance? any cheaper if we do?
[12:35] <NigeyMoby> Lots cheaper if we book early
[12:36] <NigeyMoby> I think the 5:55 or 6:25 will be ok, gets us there by 8 - 8:30
[12:37] <NigeyMoby> I'm bound to get lost at paddington.
[12:38] <Darkside> eroomde: http://i.imgur.com/ilQBE.png
[12:38] <Darkside> like that?
[12:39] <NigeyMoby> Wth...
[12:40] <Darkside> ;p
[12:41] <NigeyMoby> Ping pong ball... Where have I seen that b4 in relation to a Hab..
[12:41] <SamSilver> JP
[12:42] <NigeyMoby> Think it was bill
[12:42] <NigeyMoby> Or something similar anyhow.
[12:42] <SamSilver> pong sats
[12:42] <eroomde> Darkside: exactly like that
[12:42] <eroomde> to a T
[12:42] <fsphil> ping pong ball was W0OTM's rain water collection valve
[12:43] <fsphil> ?
[12:43] <eroomde> although the balloon could be attached to the tube just with some gaffa and jubilee clips
[12:43] <NigeyMoby> Pass
[12:43] <eroomde> but the drimp idea is a good one i think
[12:43] <eroomde> crimp*
[12:43] <eroomde> not sure how much current the solenoid will need
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[13:02] <Wild-Wing> hi
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[13:55] <SamSilver> rebooting
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[14:07] <Laurenceb> whats the difference between an etch-a-sketch and an ipad?
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[14:07] <Laurenceb> one is a kids toy and the other is an etch-a-sketch :P
[14:08] <NigeyS> lmao
[14:08] <NigeyS> did you manage to get a hp tablet Laurence?
[14:11] <Laurenceb> nope
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[14:12] <NigeyS> dam :(
[14:12] <NigeyS> hey m1x10
[14:12] <m1x10> who gave me that link radioworld.co.uk ?
[14:12] <m1x10> Hi
[14:13] <m1x10> i cant find that antenna
[14:13] <NigeyS> phil possibly? or matt
[14:13] <NigeyS> what antenna ?
[14:13] <NigeyS> Laurenceb, Blue Origin, the private space-rocket firm founded by Jeff Bezos of Amazon fame, is to conduct a rocket test this afternoon (Wednesday 24 August).
[14:13] <m1x10> magmount
[14:13] <m1x10> i think
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[14:13] <NigeyS> m1x10, 70cm mag mount ?
[14:14] <m1x10> oh ok i found it
[14:14] <NigeyS> :)
[14:14] <Laurenceb> nice
[14:15] <NigeyS> according to their notam, theyre only cleared to 18,000ft :|
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[14:15] <daveake> !
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[14:16] <NigeyS> http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_1_3552.html
[14:18] <number10> hey daveake: is your AOR 8200 a MK3?
[14:23] <daveake> It's an 8000
[14:23] <daveake> I may have got that wrong before, if so sorry!
[14:23] <m1x10> ping fsphil
[14:24] <m1x10> help
[14:24] <m1x10> on radio modules
[14:24] <m1x10> TX1H - Power supply requirements
[14:24] <m1x10> The TX1H has a built-in regulator which delivers a constant 3.5V to the transmitter circuitry when the
[14:24] <m1x10> external supply voltage is 3.5V or greater.
[14:25] <m1x10> can that mean that if i give it 3.3v its ok ?
[14:26] <daveake> Unless it specifies a min input voltage, it means you need to give it at least 3.5V
[14:26] <m1x10> mh
[14:27] <m1x10> here is the doc: http://www.radiometrix.com/files/additional/tx1h.pdf
[14:27] <daveake> Supply range 3.8V - 15V
[14:27] <SamSilver> max 15v
[14:28] <daveake> What supply/ies do you have available?
[14:28] <Randomskk> where it says "the supply voltage is 3.5V or greater"
[14:28] <Randomskk> the "or greater" means it can't be less
[14:29] <m1x10> yes :(
[14:29] <m1x10> i have 3v3
[14:29] <daveake> Which is coming from ....
[14:29] <m1x10> hi Randomskk, havent seen you for a while
[14:29] <Randomskk> I've been around :P
[14:29] <m1x10> yes propably i was lost :)
[14:29] <NigeyS> sitting in oubs, breaking records...:p
[14:29] <NigeyS> pubs*
[14:30] <daveake> lol
[14:30] <m1x10> daveake comes from 3v3 regulator
[14:30] <daveake> which is fed from .....
[14:30] <m1x10> Randomskk let me ask you
[14:30] <m1x10> I plan to buy this antenna
[14:30] <m1x10> http://www.radioworld.co.uk/catalog/mr77s-diamond-2m70cm-50cm-long-black-metal-whip-magmount-p-2055.html?osCsid=0e5f0176365195c11ca4965051e90dee
[14:30] <m1x10> for my ground station
[14:31] <W0OTM> Howdy
[14:31] <Upu> I have one of those m1x10
[14:31] <NigeyS> morning marshal
[14:31] <Upu> afternoon W0OTM
[14:31] <m1x10> when my hab reaches peak altitudes(35km eg) the 10mw AFSK radio telemetry will be reacheable by that ground antenna?
[14:31] <W0OTM> spoke with FAA and AMA got clearance for BallooMerang lance
[14:31] <W0OTM> thats GREAT news!
[14:31] <Upu> slapped ARHAB yet ?
[14:32] <m1x10> Upu: yes I know :)
[14:32] <Upu> what is BallooMerang and it sounds interesting :)
[14:32] <SpeedEvil> W0OTM: Congrats.
[14:32] <W0OTM> http://www.ihabproject.com/BallooMerang/
[14:32] <NigeyS> W0OTM, any caveats with that ?
[14:32] <daveake> m1x10 what's feeding your 3V3 reg?
[14:32] <W0OTM> Nope
[14:32] <NigeyS> awsome :D !
[14:32] <m1x10> 4.5v from lithiums
[14:32] <W0OTM> I was shocked
[14:32] <NigeyS> m1x10, feed it direct from the lithiums :)
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[14:32] <Upu> oh that project yes epic can't wait to see it
[14:33] <m1x10> yes NigeyS my previous pcb was like that
[14:33] <NigeyS> afternoon james
[14:33] <Upu> Hi jcoxon
[14:33] <m1x10> and i change it to support the 10mw module
[14:33] <NigeyS> ahh
[14:34] <m1x10> ping Randomskk ~
[14:34] <Randomskk> m1x10: not really sure. probably will do.
[14:35] <m1x10> ah a nice answer! most people here told it won't !
[14:35] <Randomskk> uh, if they gave an actual answer they probably knew what they're talking about and it might not
[14:35] <m1x10> fsphil said it :):)
[14:41] <daveake> m1x10 then run the transmitter direct from the batts
[14:42] <daveake> Oh, I see NigeyS has been helping in my absence :)
[14:42] <Randomskk> I suspect fsphil knows what he's talking about, especially when it comes to antennas and long range reception :P
[14:53] <m1x10> I went to an interview today. In the advert they were writing that they need a php/javascript developer. So I decided to send a CV. When I started talking with the boss he was telling me that 95% of their projects are based on ASP and they need an ASP developer !
[14:54] <NigeyS> eugh asp
[14:54] <m1x10> they prefer ASP to PHP because they can pay ASP support companies to help them out in very serious problems.
[14:55] <m1x10> i wish greece is going to bankrupt so all this companies are closed and finally we start up again like normal country.
[14:56] <m1x10> and they told me i need to be able to build 10 sites/month
[14:56] <m1x10> using CMS of course
[14:58] <m1x10> your european money go to those companies! stop funding our companies!
[14:58] <m1x10> say no to help greece!
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[15:13] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[15:13] <number10> afternoon
[15:13] <jcoxon> going to launch a picoatlas flight tomorrow
[15:15] <jcoxon> so would appreciate some listeners especially north east coast
[15:16] <number10> down south of cambs so probably not best placed - what is the max altitude? jcoxon
[15:16] <jcoxon> number10, max alt will probably be 7km
[15:16] <jcoxon> number10, its a launch from suffolk though
[15:17] <number10> cool
[15:17] <jcoxon> your tracking would be appreciated
[15:17] <jcoxon> especially at the beginning
[15:17] <number10> will try and be here to listen
[15:18] <number10> is there details of launch time and frequency - and autoconfig on fldigi jcoxon?
[15:20] <number10> I presume this is it :http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:picoatlas:picoatlasiii
[15:20] <jcoxon> number10, its actually not - i haven't finished that payload
[15:20] <jcoxon> but i've built a picoatlas4
[15:20] <jcoxon> it'll be 434.070Mhz
[15:20] <jcoxon> auto config Pico
[15:21] <number10> rough launch time?
[15:21] <jcoxon> still discussing that
[15:21] <jcoxon> most likely 1030ish
[15:23] <jcoxon> will properly announce it on the list in a bit
[15:23] <number10> ok
[15:24] <number10> I remember now - lavenham
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[15:26] <g8khw-iPhone> Hey jcoxon - the sky router is playing up atm just fixing it
[15:27] <m1x10> what's the bad with this ant: http://www.radioworld.co.uk/catalog/nr770r-diamond-2m70cm-dualbander-p-2057.html ?
[15:27] <m1x10> is it good for tracking?
[15:27] <jcoxon> g8khw-iPhone, no worries - i've got a few jobs to do - 10mins?
[15:28] <g8khw-iPhone> Hope so
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[15:34] <jcoxon> hey RocketBoy
[15:36] <RocketBoy> hey - everythings running sloooooo atm
[15:36] <Upu> hey Steve
[15:36] <Upu> afternoon
[15:36] <Upu> why slow ?
[15:38] <RocketBoy> if i knew ...
[15:38] <Upu> :)
[15:39] <Upu> Cheers for your mail, sorry got a little carried away with it all, I should have considered the legality before posting all that
[15:39] <fsphil> hit it with a hammer. won't fix it, but might make you feel better
[15:40] <RocketBoy> huge packet loss on the wifi
[15:40] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, how weird
[15:40] <jcoxon> worth changing wifi channels?
[15:41] <Upu> what channel are you on ?
[15:41] <RocketBoy> yeah - just what I was thinking
[15:43] <fsphil> m1x10, I'd be dubious about receiving a 10mw FM signal over a long range
[15:43] <fsphil> esp. one with 1200 baud data
[15:45] <fsphil> though people have done sstv over fm from flights before I believe
[15:45] <RocketBoy> agg - breaking out the cat6
[15:46] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, eek thats desperate
[15:46] <Upu> wired all the way, wireless is rubbish
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[15:47] <TimZaman> hi! lets start with a question
[15:47] <Upu> hey fsphil saw the stuf you've been doing with Tim , talk of the devil
[15:47] <Upu> very nice
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[15:47] <TimZaman> who has used nichrome wire / what are the experience
[15:47] <TimZaman> actually fsphil has been working with me
[15:47] <Upu> uh oh cut downs again
[15:47] <TimZaman> ;) jk
[15:47] Action: Upu ducks
[15:48] <fsphil> lol
[15:48] <TimZaman> actually not cutdowns, i want to fry some pigeons
[15:48] <fsphil> you use ducks?
[15:48] <fsphil> peck the cord
[15:48] <NigeyS> TimZaman, i successfully burnt myself twice with nichrome...
[15:48] <Upu> oh in that case fine, I made a hot wire cutter out of it
[15:48] <TimZaman> NigeyS: dont get me started on my soldering iron
[15:49] <NigeyS> lol
[15:49] <TimZaman> yeah indeed i was going to use as hotwirecutter
[15:49] <TimZaman> but i thought, hey what happened on the nichrome wire-wrapped around nylon cord works
[15:49] <TimZaman> did that ever work?
[15:49] <fsphil> would be good stuff to use as a very tiny crystal oven
[15:49] <TimZaman> indeed
[15:50] <fsphil> the whitestar guys did the wrap-around style cut-down
[15:50] <TimZaman> did it work?
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[15:50] Nick change: RocketBoy_ -> RocketBoy
[15:51] <fsphil> in testing anyway
[15:51] <RocketBoy> jcoxon: ichat?
[15:51] <fsphil> hasn't been flown
[15:51] <fsphil> there's a video of it somewhere
[15:51] <TimZaman> also, maybe im already flying next weekend.
[15:51] <TimZaman> but some guy offered me a 9cu/m helium tank. isnt that a bit too much? and too heavy?
[15:52] <fsphil> sounds huge
[15:52] <NigeyS> The Russian space agency has confirmed the Progress M-12M cargo ship was not placed in the correct orbit by its rocket and fell back to Earth.
[15:52] <NigeyS> eek
[15:52] <RocketBoy> I use 5cu m tanks and that just about managable
[15:52] <TimZaman> yeah the N20
[15:52] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, sure
[15:53] Action: NigeyS pets his N10
[15:53] <TimZaman> at least that's 5cu m too, and they are still pretty heavy
[15:53] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, do you have skype instead?
[15:53] <RocketBoy> yeah - i thnk about 20kg
[15:53] <RocketBoy> humm - think so checking
[15:54] <TimZaman> :) im not one for lifting things anyway. im good at desk sitting.
[15:55] <RocketBoy> yep - steve.randall.99
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[15:58] <jcoxon> RocketBoy, can't hear you
[15:58] <RocketBoy> yeah -
[15:58] <jcoxon> can you hear me?
[15:58] <RocketBoy> yep
[15:58] <jcoxon> worth checking your input in sound settings?
[15:58] <RocketBoy> yeah
[15:59] <RocketBoy> gonna re-stary skype
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[16:35] <griffonbot> @jamescoxon: picoatlas launch tomorrow 11:30, Suffolk, 434.070Mhz, select pico in dl-fldigi, listeners requested, path on spacenear.us/tracker/ #ukhas [http://twitter.com/jamescoxon/status/106404173112815617]
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[16:35] <Darkside> cool
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[16:37] <griffonbot> @DutchMillbt: RT @jamescoxon: picoatlas launch tomorrow 11:30, Suffolk, 434.070Mhz, select pico in dl-fldigi, listeners requested, path on spacenear.u ... [http://twitter.com/DutchMillbt/status/106404884114456576]
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[16:40] <number10> jcoxon: do you have a link to prediction for tomorrow?
[16:42] <number10> *number10 a bit slow there I see he has quit
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[16:45] <Upu> jolly good will listen :)
[16:45] <Upu> don't forget to submit it to ARHAB :o)
[16:45] <NigeyS> lol
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[16:46] <Darkside> haha yes
[16:46] <Darkside> minimum altitude record?
[16:46] <Darkside> >_>
[16:47] <Upu> they have lowest
[16:49] <number10> we should have a record for picos/micros/nanos/attos/femtos
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[16:49] <Randomskk> we're gonna run out of prefixes at this rate :P
[16:49] <NigeyS> well well, arhab have added horus 15.5
[16:49] <Darkside> LO
[16:49] <Darkside> they have?
[16:49] <NigeyS> 2 133,120 ft
[16:49] <NigeyS> 40575 m 20Aug11 Horus 15.5
[16:49] <mattltm> Hi all :)
[16:50] <Darkside> awesomw~
[16:50] <NigeyS> hey mattltm, tnx for the cable :D
[16:51] <mattltm> No probs. Is it ok?
[16:52] <NigeyS> perfect, just need to trim it down now and turn it into a shagi :D
[16:52] <Upu> Yay
[16:52] <mattltm> cool :)
[16:52] <Upu> amazing what a bit of pressure can do grats Darkside :)
[16:53] <Darkside> :P
[16:54] <Randomskk> Darkside: :D !
[16:55] <Upu> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/message/10567
[16:56] <Upu> Steve you have to thank for pointing out it wasn't accepted as a record
[16:57] <Darkside> cool
[16:59] <RocketBoy> yea - my email has resulted in them putting it up as a record
[16:59] <RocketBoy> http://www.arhab.org/
[16:59] <Darkside> thanks for that :-)
[17:00] <RocketBoy> :)
[17:00] <RocketBoy> bbl
[17:00] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "[UKHAS] PicoAtlas launch tomorrow ~11:30 Suffolk, aiming for float."
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[17:20] <Darkside> hm i need snacks
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[17:41] <NigeyS> meh making these shagi antennas is very....annoying
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[17:45] <fsphil> bah, talktalk sales men calling at the door now
[17:45] <NigeyS> eep
[17:45] <fsphil> indeed it is NigeyS, I have that joy to look forward too this weekend :)
[17:46] <mattltm> Dont screw up my lovely smp NigeyS!
[17:46] <mattltm> *sma
[17:46] <fsphil> lol
[17:46] <NigeyS> lol i wont matt, ive done this before, trust me ;)
[17:47] <fsphil> how are you untwisting the shield?
[17:47] <NigeyS> i use 1 of my solder tool things, its like a thin looped hook gets in between the braids and does a nice job of untangling
[17:47] <Darkside> yep hats the best way to do it
[17:48] <priyesh> i've got an avr/arduino based board which uses an NTX2 as the radio module. however, the avr crashes whenever i set the enable pin of the NTX2 high. the code is here: https://github.com/ApexHAB/apex-alpha/blob/master/firmware/alpha/rtty.cpp#L20
[17:48] <priyesh> i've tried both digitalWrite and PORTD
[17:48] <Darkside> wha
[17:48] <Darkside> it crashes?
[17:48] <mattltm> NigeyS: Last time someone said that to me it took a medical team 7 hours to fix me and I still have to use the Anti-Chafing Gel daily.
[17:48] <Darkside> thats... weird
[17:48] <priyesh> Darkside: yep.. it just keeps booting and then restarting
[17:48] <Darkside> thats weird
[17:48] <priyesh> and when I take those lines out. it runs
[17:49] <Darkside> priyesh: it could be your reset line
[17:49] <NigeyS> mattltm, LOL!!
[17:49] <Darkside> i.e. when the NTX2 ativates it puts a pulse on the reset line somehow
[17:49] <priyesh> the reset line is not connected to the ntx2.. :/
[17:49] <Darkside> but it might be near
[17:49] <priyesh> let me check
[17:49] <Darkside> i mean, its unlikely, especially with 10mW TX power
[17:50] <Darkside> but i'm not sure how else your avr would restart
[17:50] <NigeyS> mattltm, http://twitpic.com/6aodyb
[17:50] <mattltm> ohh, tidy :)
[17:50] <NigeyS> kills a couple of hours of spare time
[17:51] <Darkside> NigeyS: make sure the shagi antennas arent shagi..
[17:51] <Darkside> as in, the radials need to be at 90 degrees to the driven eement
[17:51] <priyesh> Darkside: nope.. reset line is on the other side of the avr from the ntx2
[17:51] <NigeyS> haha gonna do what phil did and tape it to the underneath
[17:51] <Darkside> priyesh: nfi then
[17:51] <Darkside> NigeyS: yep good idea
[17:51] <NigeyS> would putting copper tape under them help in any way ?
[17:51] <Randomskk> priyesh: power supply impedance?
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[17:52] <Darkside> a better ground plane is always good NigeyS
[17:52] <Randomskk> enabling the ntx2 starts drawing current, which might drop the psu voltage enough to reset the avr
[17:52] Nick change: MI6VIM -> fsphil
[17:52] <NigeyS> schweet
[17:52] <fsphil> stupid internet
[17:52] <fsphil> maybe I should get the talktalk guy back :)
[17:52] <mattltm> NigeyS: and a McD'd straw to add support the the driven element :)
[17:52] <danielsaul> Randomskk: It's fine if we do it manually with a wire though
[17:52] <priyesh> Randomskk: using the LT1763CS8
[17:52] <fsphil> so where was I .. how do you untwist the shield NigeyS?
[17:52] <Randomskk> can you measure the avr's supply voltage on a scope?
[17:53] <priyesh> Randomskk: http://uk.farnell.com/linear-technology/lt1763cs8-3-3-pbf/v-reg-ldo-3-3v-smd-soic8-1763/dp/1273617
[17:53] <danielsaul> and priyesh is too poor to have a scope :P
[17:53] <priyesh> danielsaul: you don't have one either :P
[17:53] <NigeyS> phil, http://twitpic.com/6aodyb
[17:53] <danielsaul> Yeh, but you dont even have a multimeter
[17:53] <Randomskk> you'd think 500mA was enough
[17:53] <danielsaul> which is hopeless
[17:53] <priyesh> Randomskk: yeah.. that's what i thought
[17:53] <NigeyS> 1 of my solder tool things, its like a thin looped hook gets in between the braids and does a nice job of untangling
[17:53] <Randomskk> you're sure the avr keeps running okay when manually enabled?
[17:53] <fsphil> NigeyS, "The photo you were looking for no longer exists"
[17:54] <danielsaul> priyesh: you're the one with it in front of you, check again :P
[17:54] <mattltm> http://twitpic.com/6aodyb
[17:54] <NigeyS> wtf
[17:54] <Randomskk> priyesh: how are you powering the regulator?
[17:54] <mattltm> Works for me :)
[17:54] <fsphil> odd
[17:54] <fsphil> that worked
[17:54] <priyesh> Randomskk: i haven't tried manually enabling it.. let me try again
[17:54] <mattltm> I haz stolenz it!
[17:54] <NigeyS> weird
[17:54] <NigeyS> lol matt
[17:54] <priyesh> (that's the pcb: https://github.com/ApexHAB/apex-alpha/blob/master/pcb/rev1.0/pcb.png)
[17:55] <fsphil> good plan - I might be able to do the same with some tweezers
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[17:55] <Darkside> eeq BNC
[17:55] <Darkside> eew*
[17:55] <Darkside> better than N (looking at you NigeyS ), but still
[17:55] <NigeyS> fsphil, oo thatd be fun, or i can send u 1 of these hooked solder tools, perfect for the job
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[17:55] <NigeyS> Darkside, hehe
[17:56] <NigeyS> the n was lovely, ut heavy
[17:56] <NigeyS> but*
[17:56] <Randomskk> priyesh: what supplies the regulator?
[17:56] <Randomskk> is there a power LED on the board?
[17:56] <priyesh> 4xAA batteries
[17:56] <Darkside> priyesh: i'd suggest using a regulator with better heatsinking in any case
[17:56] <priyesh> Randomskk: yes there is
[17:56] <fsphil> Might do NigeyS, I'll see how the tweezers work first
[17:56] <NigeyS> fsphil, sure, let me know
[17:56] <Darkside> oh i think i see part of the problem
[17:56] <Randomskk> Darkside: meh, the regulator is rated for 500mA current at specd voltage, shoudln't be that big a deal
[17:56] <fsphil> they're neat little antennas but they're a pain to make :)
[17:56] <NigeyS> if not maplins have the solder tool set, only a few quid
[17:56] <Randomskk> priyesh: does it do anything as the avr resets?
[17:56] <Darkside> priyesh: your crystal lines are way too long
[17:56] <fsphil> oooh maplins
[17:57] <Darkside> you need to move your crystal closer to your AVR, and the caps for the crystal should be as close as possible to the crystal
[17:57] <fsphil> btw Darkside, love the way you did the capacitors right next to the crystal
[17:57] <danielsaul> Randomskk: An LED between VCC and GND randomly makes it work too, if I'm correct priyesh?
[17:57] <Darkside> priyesh: also, pay a ground plane on teh top layer
[17:57] <Darkside> lay*
[17:58] <Darkside> you've got ground lines going everywhere, you really don't want that
[17:58] <priyesh> Darkside: thanks for the tips :D
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[17:58] <Darkside> also, your stripline is wrong
[17:58] <Darkside> the width might be ok, but you need to leave more space around it
[17:58] <priyesh> stripline?
[17:59] <Darkside> you should be leaving at least 2 substrate thicknesses of clearance space around the microstrip
[17:59] <Darkside> the one coming out of the NTX2
[17:59] <Darkside> tbh it probably won't matter that much, as the length of the line is so short, but its good design practice
[17:59] <Randomskk> 2 substrate thicknesses?
[17:59] <Randomskk> really?
[17:59] <Darkside> Randomskk: maybe more
[18:00] <Darkside> this is for microstrip, not the co-linear waveguide stuff
[18:00] <Randomskk> yea.
[18:00] <Darkside> the clearance on that pcb is too small anyway
[18:00] <Darkside> but yeah - first priority - get a ground plan eon the top
[18:00] <Randomskk> meh
[18:01] <Darkside> and get that crystal closer to the AVR
[18:01] <Randomskk> I'm unconvinced on having ground planes on both sides of a two layer board
[18:01] <Darkside> i reckon thats part of your problem
[18:01] <Randomskk> vs just having ground lines via to actual ground asap
[18:01] <Darkside> Randomskk: look at how long those crystal lines are
[18:01] <Randomskk> you can end up with all sorts of nasty ground loops between the planes otherwise
[18:01] <Darkside> also they are asymmetrical
[18:01] <Darkside> Randomskk: thats what ground vias are for
[18:01] <Randomskk> yea, but you'd need a ton of them
[18:01] <Darkside> yep
[18:01] <Randomskk> vs just having all the top level ground traces via to ground asap
[18:01] <Darkside> :P
[18:01] <Randomskk> then it's no problem either way
[18:01] <Randomskk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/5909357111/in/photostream
[18:01] <Darkside> i just prefer to use ground pours wherever i can
[18:02] <Randomskk> 100% ground plane on the bottom, there's no routing on it
[18:02] <Randomskk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/5909916408/in/photostream/
[18:02] <Darkside> mm
[18:02] <Darkside> i don;t doubt that it'll work
[18:02] <Randomskk> I mean, I think that should work well, or be relatively 'correct'
[18:02] <fsphil> via's done need to be soldered on new boards?
[18:02] <Darkside> fsphil: eh?
[18:02] <fsphil> don't*
[18:02] <Darkside> when i get stuff manufactured all the vias ar eplated
[18:02] <fsphil> if you have a board made with vias on it, do they need to be soldered?
[18:03] <Randomskk> nope
[18:03] <fsphil> ah
[18:03] <Darkside> no
[18:03] <Randomskk> Darkside: otherwise you can get this issue, hang on
[18:03] <Darkside> which is why i use as many as i think is necessaru
[18:03] <Randomskk> ugh easier with a diagram but
[18:03] <fsphil> excellent
[18:03] <Randomskk> if you have a ground plane on both sides
[18:03] <Darkside> hence why you see ground vias all over my PCB
[18:03] <fsphil> I'll have to use lots then
[18:03] <Randomskk> you can get different potentials between ground points on filter networks
[18:03] <Darkside> Randomskk: yeah
[18:03] <Darkside> i know about that one
[18:03] <Darkside> for RF its a bit different
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[18:03] <Darkside> you need to be way mroe careful
[18:04] <Darkside> microcontroller stuff i figure having ground everywhere is useful
[18:04] <priyesh> Randomskk: when the avr resets, the power led stays on constantly
[18:04] <priyesh> no flickering
[18:04] <Randomskk> Darkside: I guess with micros it matters way less anyway
[18:04] <Randomskk> priyesh: do you have capacitors on the power supply to the avr?
[18:04] <Darkside> priyesh: i'm still pretty certain the problem is with your crystal - at least its something that is bad
[18:04] <Randomskk> like, ~100nF decoupling caps
[18:04] <priyesh> Randomskk: yes
[18:04] <priyesh> 100nF caps
[18:05] <Randomskk> close to the supply pins?
[18:05] <Randomskk> crystal is easy to test for
[18:05] <Randomskk> set your fuses to run off the internal 8MHz RC
[18:05] <Randomskk> see if it works
[18:05] <Darkside> Randomskk: good idea
[18:05] <priyesh> Randomskk: will look into it
[18:06] <Darkside> priyesh: something else - if possible, run the NTX22 off battery voltage
[18:06] <priyesh> yes.. they're next to the avr
[18:06] <Randomskk> yea, the NTX2 doesn't need to be fed regulated voltage
[18:06] <Darkside> it helps take the load off the 3.3v regulator
[18:06] <Randomskk> that might even be worth trying now. you could cut the trace feeding the ntx2 and wire it to the battery supply instead
[18:07] <Randomskk> but, check if the avr is okay when you manually EN the NTX2
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[18:08] <Darkside> Randomskk: did you makemuch progress with the adf7012?
[18:08] <priyesh> so when i connect the EN and VCC pins of the NTX2, the avr exits the endless loop of crashing and runs
[18:08] <Randomskk> Darkside: not yet, haven't had time. which really sucks, oh my goodness!
[18:08] <Randomskk> it's been like months
[18:08] <Randomskk> stupid full time job
[18:08] <Darkside> priyesh: is VCC 3.3v?
[18:08] <Randomskk> most of my spare time has been working on habitat - don't have all the electronics setup that I'd need to mess with it
[18:08] <priyesh> Darkside: yes
[18:09] <Randomskk> also it's annoying as shit, it takes a stupid bitbanged quasi SPI protocol
[18:09] <Randomskk> and it's really hard to tell if it's doing /anything/ at this point. no scope that'l do 434mhz on the output so...
[18:09] <Darkside> Randomskk: but TX data is just birbanging?
[18:09] <Randomskk> Darkside: yea it just takes logic levels for tx data
[18:09] <Darkside> hmm ok
[18:09] <Randomskk> then it can fsk/gfsk/other sexy things
[18:09] <Darkside> i woner what shift tho
[18:09] <Randomskk> at fairly tiny programmable shifts. also other clever things
[18:09] <Randomskk> you program it
[18:09] <Randomskk> massive fractional n divider on the pll
[18:09] <Darkside> ooooh
[18:10] <Randomskk> but it depends on a lot of parameters you can set, there are like six or seven dividers in this bastard
[18:10] <Randomskk> I /think/ I'm looking at about 100hz per step
[18:10] <Randomskk> in which case no gfsk for me, but still plenty good enough for a few frequencies mfsk
[18:10] <Randomskk> sadly not really good enough for dominoex or stuff.
[18:10] <Randomskk> there might be other options though - will play once it's working
[18:10] <Randomskk> jon's playing with some new ideas too
[18:10] <Darkside> i'm just wondering if it could replace the NTX2 for an even lighter pcb
[18:11] <Randomskk> yea
[18:11] <Randomskk> that's our plans too
[18:11] <Darkside> and i could bump the output up to 14dBm, whats that, a but over 20mW?
[18:11] <Randomskk> s'all be open source anyway so I'll let you know how it goes
[18:11] <Darkside> bit*
[18:11] <Randomskk> 14dBm is 25mW
[18:11] <Darkside> cool
[18:11] <Darkside> i wonder if i could get it working at 2M
[18:12] <Randomskk> probably
[18:12] <Randomskk> it covers like 75MHz through 1GHz
[18:12] <Darkside> cool
[18:12] <Randomskk> or something like that
[18:12] <Darkside> i might see if i can make a test board for it
[18:12] <Darkside> and have ap lay
[18:12] <Randomskk> I can send you the design files for that test board if you wanted
[18:12] <Randomskk> at lower output frequency you should be able to get a smaller shift per step, too - more mfsk would be easier
[18:12] <Darkside> nah tis ok
[18:13] <Darkside> it would mean using eagle i guess :P
[18:13] <Randomskk> nah, kicad
[18:13] <Darkside> i'd prefer to recreate the design than use eagle
[18:13] <Darkside> oh god
[18:13] Action: Randomskk doesn't really use eagle
[18:13] <Darkside> even worse
[18:13] <Randomskk> kicad is lovely, stop your whining
[18:13] <Darkside> (maybe)
[18:13] <Darkside> :P
[18:13] <Randomskk> but yea, it's simple enough as a pcb. just a bit of fun times rf networks
[18:13] <priyesh> any other ideas regarding the ntx2 crashing thing? manually enabling works (and stops the crashing(
[18:13] <priyesh> * )
[18:13] <Randomskk> priyesh: that's really odd.
[18:13] <priyesh> indeed
[18:13] <Randomskk> so it's probably not power, then
[18:13] <Darkside> Randomskk: i wonder if its the NTX powering up
[18:13] <Randomskk> how do you know it crashed?
[18:13] <W0OTM> Howdy
[18:14] <Darkside> as in, teh RF powering up
[18:14] <Darkside> once its running it might work again
[18:14] <Randomskk> Darkside: or drawing a lot of current through EN?
[18:14] <priyesh> Randomskk: watching it boot up over serial
[18:14] <Darkside> possibly
[18:14] <Randomskk> eh, it should happen every time EN toggles
[18:14] <priyesh> my initial ideas was that it was drawing lots of current through EN through the avr
[18:14] <Darkside> i'd be thinking maybe as the RF powers up it disrupts the AVR, causing it to reset, which drops EN back low again
[18:14] <Randomskk> yea, could happen
[18:14] <Darkside> priyesh: got a receiver handy?
[18:14] <Darkside> can you hear what the transmitter is doing?
[18:15] <priyesh> Darkside: yep..
[18:15] <Darkside> hey W0OTM
[18:15] <Randomskk> priyesh: try the simplest test case you can? write code that does nothing but toggle EN
[18:15] <Randomskk> debugging through an LED (or serial i fyou don't have that)
[18:15] <W0OTM> Hey Darkside
[18:15] <priyesh> Randomskk: will do
[18:15] <priyesh> just setting up the radio now
[18:15] <Darkside> W0OTM: we finally got on teh arhab page :D
[18:16] <W0OTM> what you mean "got on"?
[18:16] <priyesh> Darkside: nice.. what did you say?
[18:16] <Darkside> check the altitude records
[18:16] <W0OTM> oh cool, grats!
[18:17] <fsphil> he sent 'round the heavies to have a word with them
[18:17] <daveake> woohoo!
[18:18] <priyesh> once i connect EN and VCC, i can then remove the connection and the AVR does _not_ crash
[18:18] <Randomskk> priyesh: but does it toggle it?
[18:18] <priyesh> so it's just the initial enabling which is the issue
[18:18] <Randomskk> if you write some code for the avr
[18:19] <Darkside> priyesh: is there an antenna connected
[18:19] <priyesh> Randomskk: haven't done that test yet.. just got the radio out and listing to the ntx2
[18:19] <Darkside> or do you have a 50 ohm load you can wire up to the antenna socket
[18:19] <priyesh> Darkside: not at the moment
[18:19] <Randomskk> which says "turn on, set the LED/write 1 to serial, turn on EN, sleep 1s, turn off LED, turn off EN, repeat"
[18:19] <Randomskk> then see if it can turn the thing on and off reliably
[18:19] <Randomskk> might want another sleep while off, too.
[18:19] <priyesh> Randomskk: will do that when i get back.. just got to go for 30 min
[18:19] <priyesh> bbl
[18:19] <priyesh> also thanks for all the help Randomskk & Darkside
[18:20] <Darkside> Randomskk: did you use the ADIsimSDR design tool?
[18:20] <Darkside> i'm seeing if it works in wine :P
[18:22] <Darkside> haha cool
[18:22] <Darkside> it just calculated all the values for me
[18:22] <Randomskk> ;D
[18:22] <Randomskk> nah I manned up and did it by hand from first principles
[18:23] <Darkside> :P
[18:24] <Randomskk> :P
[18:24] <Darkside> i figure if theyve spent the time making these design tools, it'd be nice to use them :P
[18:24] <Darkside> to, y'know, make the HARD WORK those programmers did mean something
[18:24] <Randomskk> hah good point
[18:24] <Darkside> you MONSTER
[18:24] <Darkside> :P
[18:24] <Randomskk> I basically pissed all over their work
[18:24] <Randomskk> basically pissed on them, personally, really
[18:25] <Darkside> Bear Grylls?
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[18:26] <Darkside> hmm it wants a 9.57nH inductor
[18:27] <Randomskk> clearly hand wind one :P
[18:27] <Darkside> haha
[18:27] <Darkside> i just found a part on farnell for a 9.5nH inductor
[18:28] <Randomskk> close enough
[18:28] <Darkside> tbh i don't think i'll get to using one of these for a while
[18:28] <Darkside> the radiometrix modules are pretty good
[18:28] <Darkside> i've also got one of those shitty ASK modules on order, i want to see if i can do anything useful with them
[18:29] <Darkside> if i can get useful data through them, they;d be good for a temp sounder
[18:29] <Darkside> i.e. just a BMP085, a small AVR, and one of those shitty transmitters
[18:29] <fsphil> they're very very light those transmitters
[18:29] <Darkside> launch it on a party balloon
[18:29] <Darkside> and get a temp trace
[18:30] <Darkside> i could probably chuck it up with a few AAS
[18:30] <Darkside> use a boost converter to bring it up to 3.3V or something
[18:30] <Darkside> it only has to last until about 10000 ft
[18:31] <Randomskk> if you're doing a boost, use a single lithium AAA
[18:31] <Darkside> yeah
[18:31] <Darkside> and i can just use a bunch of party balloons, and launch out of my backyard
[18:32] <Darkside> i've had at least one glider pilot offer to pay me to get him temp traces in the mornings
[18:32] <Darkside> the BOM doesn't get their data out until about 11am, which is way too late
[18:32] <Darkside> they'd want temp trace data at around 6-7am
[18:32] <fsphil> good idea
[18:32] <Randomskk> hah, you could probably turn a profit
[18:32] <Randomskk> automate the heck out of it
[18:33] <Darkside> Randomskk: i can't automate the launch
[18:33] <Darkside> but i can automate the reception
[18:33] <Randomskk> sure you can
[18:33] <Randomskk> msot of it
[18:33] <Randomskk> most*
[18:33] <Darkside> hell, i could have it beep out temp and pressure via morse code
[18:33] <Randomskk> or at least do the work in batches
[18:33] <Darkside> that wouldn't be hard to do
[18:33] <Randomskk> rtty probably easier than morse
[18:33] <Darkside> Randomskk: those ASK modules dont to RTTY
[18:33] <Randomskk> ah
[18:33] <Randomskk> yea.
[18:33] <Darkside> and NTX2 modules are too expensive
[18:33] <Randomskk> morse'd do the trick then
[18:34] <Randomskk> well
[18:34] <Randomskk> could do 7bit OOK
[18:34] <Randomskk> RTTY with one sidechannel :P
[18:34] <Darkside> eh?
[18:34] <Randomskk> on off keying
[18:34] <Darkside> oh
[18:34] <Randomskk> imagine RTTY with only one tone, and you assume the other
[18:34] <Darkside> yeah, i'm assuming thats what this is doing
[18:34] <Darkside> any demodulators out there for that?
[18:34] <Randomskk> not sure
[18:35] <Darkside> hmm
[18:35] <Darkside> anyway, im thinking use the smallest atmega with I2C
[18:35] <Randomskk> atmega?
[18:35] <Randomskk> attiny surely
[18:35] <Darkside> maybe
[18:35] <Randomskk> attiny4 or something. six pins
[18:35] <Darkside> do they have I2C?
[18:35] <Darkside> or am i going to have to bitbang it
[18:35] <Randomskk> probably not
[18:35] <Randomskk> do you really need i2c hardware
[18:35] <Randomskk> what for, the temp sensor?
[18:35] <Darkside> depends on teh price of the chips
[18:36] <Randomskk> a lot of the avrs have internal temp sensors
[18:36] <Darkside> Randomskk: the pressure sensor
[18:36] <Randomskk> ah
[18:36] <Randomskk> isn't that pretty expensive
[18:36] <Darkside> yeah, thats the most expensive component
[18:36] <Darkside> i should be able to get them cheaper in bulk
[18:36] <Darkside> sparkfun tell the m for $7.68 in lots >10
[18:36] <Randomskk> that's ntb
[18:37] <Darkside> atmega88a is $2.88 in lots >10 from farnell
[18:38] <Randomskk> yea well attiny4 is £0.51 in lots >10
[18:38] <Darkside> mm
[18:38] <Darkside> i could send down the binary data from the pressure sensor, and do all the processing on the ground
[18:39] <Darkside> it would mean implementing I2C though
[18:39] <Darkside> yaaay
[18:39] <fsphil> hmm.. discussion on the GPSL list is getting heated
[18:39] <Darkside> oh?
[18:39] <Darkside> link
[18:40] <fsphil> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/message/10583
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[18:42] <Randomskk> oh my
[18:42] <daveake> handbags at dawn
[18:43] <Darkside> lol
[18:43] <Randomskk> wow, so srs
[18:43] <daveake> Maybe the next altitude record attempt could use a handbag as the payload container
[18:43] <Randomskk> and super passive aggressive! this is why I don't talk to other hams on the radio
[18:44] <daveake> iIt is (was?) a silly rule. If they want to avoid false claims, they need something else
[18:44] <DanielRichman> I don't understand how announcing your launch beforehand means less false claims? If you announce it does the maintainer get up and watch your balloon fly to make sure?
[18:45] <Darkside> Randomskk: i reckon i could use the ASK module like a UART, at a low baud rate
[18:45] <Darkside> and i just send down the raw daa from the BMP085
[18:45] <Darkside> that would use a minimal amount of code
[18:45] <Randomskk> Darkside: sounds reasonable
[18:46] <Darkside> its just a matter of a receiver that can read the data
[18:46] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: exactly. the system /requires/ trust
[18:46] <daveake> Exactly
[18:46] <Darkside> i could probably just do it with an envelope detector
[18:46] <Randomskk> plus whichever bastard (KC8UCH I guess) is saying all this whining and how we'll set up his own site
[18:46] <Randomskk> well, we don't fly our balloons under the authority of an amateur radio license
[18:46] <Randomskk> so
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> We fly our balloons for the Queen!
[18:47] <Randomskk> damn straight. king and country.
[18:47] <number10> and our freinds in OZ
[18:47] <Randomskk> they have the same queen :P
[18:47] <daveake> Even they fly for the Queen :)
[18:48] <number10> do they want her?
[18:48] <daveake> Doubt it
[18:48] <Darkside> number10: not really
[18:48] <Darkside> (we love the royals)
[18:48] <number10> lol, you dont like our beer either
[18:48] <Darkside> though their private lives have shown
[18:48] <Darkside> (we love the royals)
[18:48] <Darkside> that we're better off on our own
[18:48] <Darkside> problem is
[18:49] <number10> you love it here Darkside
[18:49] <Darkside> if we get rid of the queen
[18:49] <Darkside> who'll be on the money?
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> Freddie Mercury
[18:49] <Darkside> we won't be saying tails or heads - it'll be tails or dickheads
[18:49] <fsphil> lol
[18:49] <daveake> Elton John
[18:50] <number10> you could have sir les patterson
[18:50] <fsphil> you do seem to have more than your fair share of dodgy politicians down there Darkside
[18:51] <Darkside> fsphil: ohh yeah
[18:51] <Darkside> i need to show you guys some clips from question time
[18:52] <Darkside> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl-GzqTCxZY
[18:56] <fsphil> yikes!
[18:56] <Darkside> eeyup
[19:02] <Randomskk> brb
[19:06] <Upu> yikes habbers and fisty cuffs
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/08/24/182257/Russian-Supply-Vehicle-To-ISS-Burns - spacex must be dancing round the room high-fiving each other.
[19:07] <W0OTM> Let the flood doors open
[19:07] <W0OTM> wow...every ham has an opinion
[19:08] <W0OTM> lmao
[19:08] Action: m1x10 thinks he is going for a new pcb again. supporting both 10mw and 100mw radio modules.
[19:08] <Upu> indeed
[19:08] <Darkside> m1x10: they are pin compatible
[19:08] <m1x10> yes i know
[19:08] <Darkside> only the 300mw ones are different, in that they need a regulated 5v supply
[19:08] <m1x10> need some more tracing and a switch
[19:09] <Upu> on behalf of ukhas and the queen please convey our apologies to the USA for messing up their records
[19:09] <Upu> and causing a bit of an argument :/
[19:13] <daveake> lol
[19:14] <daveake> It's an international incident
[19:14] <Upu> I blame Darkside
[19:14] <daveake> So do I
[19:14] <daveake> :)
[19:14] <Darkside> :<
[19:14] Action: Darkside is researching how to bitbang I2C
[19:16] <number10> lets be careful guys as number10 will have to deal with the political fall out
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[19:36] <priyesh> Darkside: Randomskk: just wrote a program which only enabled the NTX2 and does nothing else.. same result
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[19:36] <priyesh> doesn't get past the first enable before crashing
[19:36] <priyesh> i will manually enable and see what happens
[19:37] <Upu> bargin Ft-817 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/yaesu-ft-817-/260841021324?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_SpecialistRadioEquipment_SM&hash=item3cbb561f8c
[19:37] <Upu> £280 no bids
[19:37] <Darkside> i think you need to fix your crystal lines priyesh
[19:37] <Darkside> see if you can program the board to work off the internal oscillator
[19:38] <priyesh> Darkside: will try that next
[19:38] <priyesh> i just manually enabled the ntx2.. it worked. then when i removed the wire, it crashed again
[19:39] <priyesh> i'm a novice with fuses.. i better read up
[19:40] <Darkside> are you using the arduino bootloader?
[19:41] <priyesh> yes
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[19:47] <priyesh> Darkside: would i have to do anything different as i'm using the arduino bootloader or not?
[19:47] <Darkside> you'd need to let the bootloader know you[re running at 8MHz
[19:47] <Darkside> or whatever
[19:47] <Darkside> not sure how that orks, sorry
[19:52] <priyesh> anyone here ever changed an uno to use the internal clock?
[19:53] <Darkside> wait
[19:53] <Darkside> a uni?
[19:53] <Darkside> uno*
[19:53] <Darkside> you don't have that PCB?
[19:53] <priyesh> the pcb runs the uno bootloader
[19:53] <Darkside> oh
[19:53] <priyesh> we have the pcb
[19:53] <Darkside> the normal arduino bootloader
[19:53] <priyesh> i have it infront of my
[19:53] <priyesh> *me
[19:54] <priyesh> well the uno bootloader is different to the Duemilanove
[19:54] <Darkside> http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ArduinoToBreadboard
[19:54] <Darkside> near the bottom
[19:54] <Darkside> ATmega328 on a breadboard (8 MHz internal clock)
[19:55] <priyesh> ah.. nice.. was at the top of that page just now :P
[20:03] <priyesh> burning the new bootloader now
[20:07] <griffonbot> Received email: Neil Baker "Re: [UKHAS] PicoAtlas launch tomorrow ~11:30 Suffolk, aiming for float."
[20:07] <priyesh> Darkside: no luck.. same result using internal clock
[20:07] <Darkside> nfi then
[20:07] <Darkside> sorry
[20:07] <Darkside> :(
[20:07] <priyesh> no problem
[20:07] <priyesh> at least we tried
[20:08] <priyesh> thanks dude :)
[20:09] <Randomskk> hmm so
[20:09] <Randomskk> not the clock
[20:09] <priyesh> yep. not the clock
[20:09] <Randomskk> my guess is still on power somewhere dropping the voltage low enough
[20:09] <Randomskk> can you get access to a scope?
[20:10] <priyesh> not today. but maybe on the weekend
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[20:13] <priyesh> putting the bootloader back for now
[20:13] <daveake> Let me get this right ... switching the o/p on when it's connected the the ntx2 en line, and the cpu locks (doesn't reboot, just stops); cut the line and it's ok, connect ntxen to vcc and it's ok. Correct?
[20:14] <priyesh> switching the o/p on when it's connected to the ntx2 en pin makes the avr crash/reboot
[20:14] <daveake> ok
[20:15] <priyesh> if the en and vcc are connected the avr runs fine
[20:15] <daveake> ok
[20:15] <priyesh> ie. switching the o/p high does not crash it
[20:15] <daveake> Is this an Arduino, your own PCB, or a breadboard?
[20:15] <priyesh> my own pcb
[20:16] <daveake> ok
[20:16] <daveake> And you have no multimeter or scope at the mo?
[20:16] <priyesh> no :(
[20:17] <daveake> Got a spare cap to stick across Vcc-GND?
[20:17] <priyesh> yep.. any specific value?
[20:18] <daveake> Something like a 100nF ceramic
[20:18] <daveake> Sounds like a dodgy earth or Vcc to the processor.
[20:19] <daveake> With a meter I'd be checking reg --> AVR on the Vcc and GND lines
[20:19] <priyesh> i have few ceramic caps.. but let me check
[20:19] <daveake> Also, is the reg getting enough volts in?
[20:20] <priyesh> yup
[20:20] <danielsaul> priyesh: will try to rememebr to bring my multimeter for you tomorrow then...
[20:20] <danielsaul> wrong place
[20:20] <priyesh> danielsaul: thanks :)
[20:20] <daveake> Got a spare AVR?
[20:20] <danielsaul> Flicking between rooms and private chats is annoying :P
[20:21] <priyesh> nope.. don't have ceramic caps.. only electrolytic
[20:21] <priyesh> daveake: yes i have a spare avr..
[20:22] <danielsaul> daveake: One thing which priyesh isn't mentioning is the weird phenomenon of an LED across Vcc and GND making it work... Any idea why that would cause it to work?
[20:22] <daveake> eh?
[20:22] <daveake> wow
[20:22] <Randomskk> priyesh: put an electrolytic across the avr's vcc and ground pins
[20:22] <priyesh> daveake: yes.. taht works
[20:22] <priyesh> no idea why
[20:22] <danielsaul> We got very confused at that, and decided to ignore it... but might be important :P
[20:22] <Randomskk> and maybe also en/ground on the ntx2
[20:22] <daveake> Try the cap then
[20:23] <priyesh> just fishing some caps out
[20:23] <priyesh> 100uF?
[20:23] <daveake> plenty
[20:23] <daveake> Does rather sound like a power/ground issue
[20:24] <priyesh> just burning program+bootloader back onto the board.. won't be a sec
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[20:24] <danielsaul> priyesh: Just ordering APEX stickers :)
[20:24] <priyesh> danielsaul: fantastic.. i want photos as soon as they arrive :)
[20:25] <danielsaul> By the time they arrive, we'll be back at school I expect :P Will show you then, and hope Mr C doesn't mind paying for them... :S
[20:25] <priyesh> lol
[20:25] <danielsaul> My alt-number isnt workign to switch rooms
[20:26] <danielsaul> *channels
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[20:33] <priyesh> okay.. all ready.. let me try the cap
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[20:37] <priyesh> ok a cap between vcc and gnd on a header solves the issue completely..
[20:37] <Randomskk> right
[20:37] <Randomskk> but you say you do already have a 100nf cap on vcc to gnd near the avr?
[20:37] <Randomskk> curious.
[20:37] <Randomskk> anyway there you go, put more caps on
[20:37] <priyesh> and a cap between en and gnd (NTX2) allows the avr to enable the ntx2, but then it crashes when disabling the ntx2
[20:37] <Randomskk> that's weird.
[20:38] <priyesh> yep we do have 100nf caps from vcc to gnd on the avr
[20:38] <daveake> Depending on the regulator, a small (1 or 10uF) electrolytic might be recommended as well as the 100nF
[20:39] <Randomskk> priyesh: I'd also consider putting the ntx2 on the unregulated supply
[20:39] <daveake> Yep
[20:40] <priyesh> on the regulator there is a 0.01 + 10uF pair of caps
[20:40] <priyesh> weird :S
[20:40] <daveake> Yes, weird.
[20:40] <priyesh> i thought i had too many caps :P
[20:40] <priyesh> i have 3 on the avr
[20:40] <daveake> Not possible LOL
[20:40] <priyesh> 3 on the reg
[20:40] <danielsaul> Did I solder it all correctly? :P
[20:40] <daveake> Should be plenty
[20:40] <priyesh> danielsaul: i think you didn't solder it correctly
[20:41] <priyesh> that is why it doesn't work :P
[20:41] <danielsaul> :(
[20:41] <daveake> When you get the meter, check the reg --> AVR on the Vcc and GND sides. Also check the volts coming out the reg.
[20:41] <daveake> Make sure the NTX2 is connected to the same ground :)
[20:41] <priyesh> will do :)
[20:41] <priyesh> thanks daveake + Randomskk :D
[20:42] <Randomskk> np
[20:42] <priyesh> iirc we're getting 3.31v out of the reg daveake
[20:42] <priyesh> or was it 3.29v
[20:42] <priyesh> well it is very close to 3.3v :P
[20:42] <daveake> And as Randomskk, connect the ntx2 Vcc to uneg power. It has its own reg, and you're then providing some isolation between it and the AVR, so (e.g.) noise on the AVR Vcc line doesn't end up on the radio
[20:43] <daveake> Close enough!
[20:43] <priyesh> uneg? unregulated.. so straight from the battery?
[20:44] <daveake> btw when I say "Vcc", these days it's Vdd usually. Excuse me as I'm an old fart brought up on TTL
[20:44] <daveake> Yes
[20:44] <daveake> It has an onboard regulator
[20:44] <priyesh> where would you recommend putting this new 100uF cap on the board?
[20:44] <daveake> Wherever it works!
[20:44] <priyesh> i see..
[20:44] <priyesh> :P
[20:45] <daveake> It really shouldn't be needed. I think it's masking the real problem
[20:46] <priyesh> there is a 100nF decoupling the VCC of the ntx2
[20:46] <priyesh> i guess i'll just add a 100uF there along with another 100uF somewhere near the avr or reg
[20:47] <daveake> From what you've said, you've got enough caps in the right places.
[20:48] <priyesh> the schematic/board design is on github if you want to see
[20:49] <priyesh> https://github.com/ApexHAB/apex-alpha/blob/master/pcb/rev1.0/schematic.png
[20:50] Lunar_Lander (~Miranda@p54A07DDF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:50] <priyesh> hello
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> hello GW8RAK m1x10 NigeyS fsphil priyesh
[20:51] <daveake> priyesh No pullup on the reset line
[20:51] <Lunar_Lander> hi daveake did you get the GPS to reset?
[20:51] <m1x10> hello Lunar_Lander
[20:51] <daveake> Oh yus :)
[20:51] <priyesh> daveake: i was told to remove it :P
[20:52] <daveake> Well I'm telling you to put it back :)
[20:52] <daveake> http://www.kanda.com/files/isp_circuits.pdf
[20:52] <GW8RAK> Hi Lunar_Lander. Having a bad time here trying to solder 4 wires!
[20:52] <danielsaul> daveake: Is the internal one not big enough?
[20:52] <m1x10> Today i just received my 2nd version of my capsule
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> a better box m1x10?
[20:52] <m1x10> yes much better
[20:52] <daveake> No idea, I just looked up to see what is recommended :-)
[20:53] <daveake> Given that his AVR is resetting, the reset line looks to be a favourite place to check :)
[20:53] <priyesh> danielsaul: we will have to show jon that :P
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> m1x10 : hang on
[20:53] <danielsaul> Yep, just done a search myself and it seems to be a matter of great debate :P
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9825 can this be used to program your PCB?
[20:54] <danielsaul> "A "stronger" pull-up might be needed in noisy environments, plus a capacitor. "
[20:54] <danielsaul> "(the opinion is that the internal pullup is too wimpy for field conditions) "
[20:54] <priyesh> i see
[20:54] <danielsaul> "For our many production AVR designs over the years, we use 4k7 pullup to Vcc, and a 100nF cap to Vcc. Others may put the cap to Gnd"
[20:54] <priyesh> it looks like alpha will require v1.1
[20:54] <daveake> Lunar_Lander I tried a few things that didn't (seem to) work, then after a power cycle it responded to TSIP just fine.
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> a power cycle is what exactly?
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> run it till the batteries are flat?
[20:55] <danielsaul> priyesh: Can't we hack our way around it? I can't be bothered with a 1.1
[20:55] <daveake> It's now set to flight mode, high sensitivity, and NMEA GGA/RMC sentences. Sorted!
[20:55] <daveake> power off then on
[20:55] <danielsaul> Switch to #apexhab
[20:55] <priyesh> danielsaul: good idea :P
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> is apexhab the new club?
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[20:57] <m1x10> Lunar_Lander: http://www.ladyada.net/make/usbtinyisp/
[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> I know that one
[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> does the one in the link also work?
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[21:07] <m1x10> Lunar_Lander: dunno
[21:07] <m1x10> just buy usbtinyisp to be 100%
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:08] <m1x10> im going to sleep
[21:08] <m1x10> tomorrow a picture of my new capsule will be online :)
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[21:16] <jcoxon> ping RocketBoy
[21:17] <Lunar_Lander> hi jcoxon
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[21:29] <jcoxon> hey Lunar_Lander
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[21:44] <RocketBoy> hey jcoxon
[21:44] <RocketBoy> pong
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[22:15] <Lunar_Lander> how are you jcoxon?
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[23:00] <NigeyS> BREAKING NEWS:
[23:00] <NigeyS> Steve Jobs resigns as CEO of Apple, to become chairman, the company announces
[23:00] <NigeyS>
[23:00] <NigeyS> well that was unexpected
[23:00] LazyLeopard (~irc-clien@chocky.demon.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Bye
[23:01] <Randomskk> there we go
[23:01] <Randomskk> #highaltitude is the last of all the irc channels I'm on to say it :P
[23:01] <NigeyS> lol
[23:01] <NigeyS> its a slow night :)
[23:01] <Randomskk> you even lost to #habhub and the cambridge university's assassins guild, poor show :P
[23:02] <NigeyS> ah man, i'll get me coat :)
[23:02] <Randomskk> good thing it's out of trading hours
[23:02] <Randomskk> looking forward to watching the ticker tomorrow
[23:02] <Randomskk> probably not a bad time to buy aapl actually
[23:02] <Randomskk> shame I don't have anything liquid on a broker atm
[23:02] <NigeyS> yup, theyre gonna fall like a lead balloon .. excuse the pun !
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[23:14] <W0OTM> Hello
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> hello W0OTM
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> nice to see you again
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> NigeyS : btw
[23:16] <W0OTM> Good seeing you
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> do you know Mythbusters?
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> the plane is cool
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> on MB, they took on the Pb balloon
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> they made a cuboid balloon from Pb foil, filled it with air/He mix
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> and it floated
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> until Adam threw a few baseballs through it
[23:24] <NigeyS> hehe
[23:24] <NigeyS> right im off nn peeps
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> gn8
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[23:52] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[00:00] --- Thu Aug 25 2011