highaltitude.log.20110705

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[06:33] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon "Re: [UKHAS] Whats an acceptable duty cycle for a payload?"
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[09:00] <griffonbot> @AnthonyStirk: Cloud1 provisionally launching this weekend http://t.co/2ZHyq31 #ukhas [http://twitter.com/AnthonyStirk/status/88170459572617216]
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[09:02] <fsphil> ooh arr
[09:03] <daveake> Thanks Anthony :-)
[09:05] <Upu> oh hi there :)
[09:05] <Upu> wondered if you were on here :)
[09:06] <daveake> Yep :-). I was on yesterday but couldn't think of anything useful to say!
[09:06] <Upu> lol don't worry about that
[09:06] <Upu> looks like a really sorted payload, wish I could get my head round the interupt programming
[09:07] <Upu> looks like you've taken my wish/feature list for Ava2 and done them all :)
[09:07] <daveake> LOL!
[09:07] <Upu> Feature request 10/ Legs on payload to autonomously walk back home
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[09:08] <daveake> I built my own computer from a Z80 and a box of bits in 1979, so the flight hardware/software stuff I find easy enough :)
[09:08] <Upu> showing your age :)
[09:08] <daveake> Walk home LOL ... I do mess with r/c helicopters so don't think something like that hasn't crossed my mind :)
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[09:09] <Upu> hi NigelMoby
[09:09] <daveake> Yeah I thought I'd get the age thing done up front :)
[09:09] <NigelMoby> Hey upu
[09:09] <Upu> brb phone
[09:09] <NigelMoby> So who ordered 4 days of rain? :(
[09:10] <daveake> Also I've done GPS tracking stuff for the WRC, and telemetry for A1GP, so a lot of this stuff I know already, fortunately.
[09:10] <daveake> Dunno; hoping it's dry by the weekend!
[09:11] <daveake> Question - do people get problems with camera lenses fogging up and freezing? Is it best to launch on a dry day?
[09:12] <russss> seems like the camera's usually warm enough to de-ice its own lens
[09:13] <NigelMoby> You'll get more fog if you add a plastic window in the payload box, best to just make a hole and let the lens be exposed to the elements
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[09:13] <fsphil> you built a computer? /me bows to daveake
[09:15] <daveake> Yeah .. I was too poor to buy a BBC computer! These days you buy a PIC or AVR, stick power on it and you're done; back then (when I were a lad ...) it needed a lot of support chips added.
[09:16] <fsphil> yea they where mighty pricey kits the bcc
[09:16] <fsphil> bbc
[09:16] <daveake> Thanks re the camera ... I did see that someone had tried a window but it just made things worse. I have a Canon compact picked up cheap on ebay, and measured the current consumption (to be sure the batteries would last). With 50mm of insulation the 1-2 watts in the camera should keep it cosy.
[09:17] <daveake> The Kodal camcorder uses more power, and I'm having to add external AA Lithium cells so it lasts through the entire flight.
[09:17] <daveake> Kodak even
[09:17] <fsphil> the canon's generate a surprising amount of heat
[09:19] <daveake> Yep. I measured my little Ixus and on that the LCD/backlight used more than the CCD. My wife has decided she prefers the IXUS to her camera, so I had to get another Canon (Powershot something with AA cells) from the Canon Outlet on ebay. For that one, the CCD uses more than the LCD/backlight. Go figure!
[09:19] <Upu> I've been recommend not to use a "window" on the camera by a number of people daveake
[09:19] <daveake> Cheers. I shall not use a window :)
[09:20] <juxta> I used 50mm insulation on my first launch & my cameras came out very toasty :)
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[09:20] <fsphil> I didn't measure my canon's power consumption, other than to run it overnight and see how long it went for
[09:20] <Upu> https://picasaweb.google.com/upuaut/201009AVAPayloadConstruction#5520396779550095778 note the window thats now been removed :)
[09:20] <fsphil> it filled up the SD card before it ran out so I declared victory on that :)
[09:20] <daveake> LOL
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[09:21] <daveake> Yeah, I've done the time tests and my SD card filled before the batteries died. Then I noticed that CHDK defaults to saving raw files too!
[09:21] <RocketBoy> my take on the camera filter thing is unless you know what your doing avoid windows in front of the lens - as misting and reflections result - however a good UV filter can improve picture quality up there as there is a lot of uv reflected by the atmosphere
[09:22] <RocketBoy> most people go barefoot
[09:22] <Upu> hey RocketBoy congrats on gettnig the payload back
[09:22] <fsphil> I hit the same problem daveake, there's an option in the menu to disable that. also one of the buttons on the back re-enable RAW and I kept hitting that by mistake
[09:22] <Upu> what was the chicken farm like
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[09:22] <daveake> I guess a UV filter screwed into the camera lens would be OK, as it'd warm up a bit, but no filter thread on my Canon PS
[09:22] <fsphil> UV is annoying - it seemed to wipe-out my live images above 29km
[09:23] <RocketBoy> Upu: the guy wandering round with the shotgun was the main concern.
[09:23] <Upu> ouch
[09:23] <daveake> I've got a step-by-step list for the Canon so I set it properly! If there's one thing I've learnt about this HAB stuff, it's that preparation is key. Far too many ways to get things wrong!
[09:24] <Upu> I did look at it and think, they aren't the sort of farm that are going to want people wandering about on a Sunday evening :)
[09:24] <RocketBoy> fsphil: yeah I have seen pics with and without a UV filter on the same flight and a filter was defiantly an improvement
[09:25] <Upu> I do have a UV filter not sure wether to stick it on or not, would popping some silica gel near it help ?
[09:25] <RocketBoy> but it needs some extra work to get right
[09:25] <daveake> I have spare UV filters; it's whether I fancy sticking one to the front of the camera with blu tak / araldite / whatever :-). Maybe purge the gap with some spaere helium? LOL
[09:26] <RocketBoy> I have never tried silica gell - but I wonder if the water absorbed by them might come out in a vacuum and therefore be more of a problem
[09:26] <Upu> how big is your balloon DanielRichman ?
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[09:27] <Upu> well maybe next flight someone can test that
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[09:27] <RocketBoy> or a test chamber (I have a vacuum chamber)
[09:28] <Upu> oh that would be even better
[09:28] <daveake> That would :)
[09:28] <Upu> you just have one lying about ? :)
[09:28] <RocketBoy> may try it in a day or two
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[09:29] <RocketBoy> got one for the samsung paper planes project
[09:29] <Upu> what balloon was the last Xaben launch then RocketBoy ? Hwoyee ?
[09:30] <RocketBoy> twas a 2000
[09:30] <Upu> so probably best if I up the rate of accent a little if I want it back ? :)
[09:30] <Upu> I was going for 4.5m/s
[09:30] <Upu> but they seem to float and I don't really want that
[09:33] <RocketBoy> I have seen it (float) on the larger totex balloons as well
[09:35] <RocketBoy> one of rjharrisons 3000 flights ended up like that
[09:35] <Upu> any suggestions ? Higher ascent rate ?
[09:36] <RocketBoy> probably - I'm still analysing the data
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[09:39] <eroomde> if it is going superpressure instead of bursting, then more gas in the envelope would probably help. But it really needs instrumentation
[09:40] <SamSIlver> I was wondering what a high gain would look like at the bottom of the yard, then I can track ukhas flights from South Africa http://imgur.com/8XQLm
[09:41] <RocketBoy> maybe via moon bounce
[09:42] <fsphil> 10mw EME .. now that would be impressive
[09:43] <eroomde> if you had an aricebo tx and aricebo rx, it might work!
[09:45] <Upu> well they can still hear Voyager...
[09:45] <Darkside> what about transmitting on a frequency within the passband of the funcube's transverter?
[09:45] <Darkside> so when it flies over you listen on the output of rhe transcverter
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[09:45] <Darkside> the transverter*
[09:51] <fsphil> the whole no-amateur thing
[09:52] <fsphil> would be an option outside the UK though
[09:52] <fsphil> maybe for a trans-atlantic flight
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[10:19] <griffonbot> Received email: Solar Balloonman "[UKHAS] Re: Could this take peroxide? Re: 'Solar Pillow'"
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[10:23] <daveake> Can someone help me with getting my payload details uploaded for the tracker? I have a sample XML file which I can edit with the payload ID, frequency etc. What do I do with the XML when I've finished editing it?
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[10:25] <fsphil> someone with access to the server needs to upload it. not sure who has - natrium42, eroomde, jcoxon or jonsowman most likely
[10:27] <eroomde> afraid I lost all the details about a year ago - i'm a bit hopeless sorry. Usually someone else is around to do it.
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[10:28] <daveake> Thanks, will send an email if nobody volunteers :)
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[10:32] <Upu> Randomskk, natrium42 and possibly jonsowman can do it
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[10:32] <daveake> Thanks :)
[10:33] <Upu> or the lesser spotted rjharrison
[10:33] <daveake> :)
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[10:35] <fsphil> we could probably trim the list down to be honest
[10:36] <daveake> I have another question :-). How best to attach the string to the top of the parachute? Should I cut/sew a bleed hole in the top of the 'chute for stability? Then the string needs sewing in there somehow.
[10:36] <Upu> I got a local machine shop to stitch 3 cords across the bleed hole
[10:37] <Upu> and I found this knot!
[10:37] <Upu> 1 sec
[10:38] <Upu> just uploading
[10:38] <daveake> TVM :)
[10:39] <Upu> https://picasaweb.google.com/upuaut/NewFolder?authkey=Gv1sRgCOb0goXZ1J_w8wE
[10:40] <daveake> <impressed>
[10:40] <Upu> don't have pictures of the chute but I'll do some this evening
[10:41] <Upu> Stitchy Buckle did a great job
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[10:42] <daveake> I'd appreciate that. My 'chute has no bleed hole and no method of fixing to the middle, so I need to get that done PDQ.
[10:42] <Upu> ah yeah you may need to cut one
[10:42] <daveake> Cutting I can do. Sewing however ....
[10:42] <Upu> clothing alteration place :)
[10:43] <daveake> Mrs Dave usually :)
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[10:43] <Upu> Rjharrison did a through the hole method
[10:43] <Upu> 1 sec
[10:43] <eroomde> daveake: if it doesn't have a hole in the apex, and you can find someone to do some seamstressing, put a hole in
[10:43] <eroomde> it'll improve your stability
[10:43] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/A-%20The%20chute%20hanging%20limply.JPG
[10:43] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/B-%20The%20confluence%20point%20tied%20to%20the%20main%20line%20.JPG
[10:43] <daveake> Cheers, that's what I was thinking
[10:43] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/C.jpg
[10:44] <eroomde> and then get a couple of lengths on nylon braid to go across the hole diameter - you can attach the line to the balloon to that
[10:44] <Upu> personally I couldn't get it working and it tangled, so I used the "parachute as a load bearing" option
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[10:44] <daveake> and the water gun ...? ;-)
[10:45] <eroomde> i'm definitely a proponents of having the parachutes in-line, bearing tension
[10:45] <Upu> that's Robs kids gun :)
[10:45] <daveake> Ah :)
[10:45] <Upu> yeah it works for me eroomde
[10:46] <daveake> Sounds sensible to me ... 'chute ready for opening. Not opening would be a bad thing.
[10:46] <eroomde> uhuh
[10:47] <RocketBoy> also need to size the chute to allow for the fact that the balloon may not shred properly - which is why my one came in hot Sunday - it still had 1Kg of the balloon attached
[10:48] <eroomde> dual-deploy could be The Next Big Thing for balloond
[10:48] <eroomde> balloons
[10:48] <fsphil> I'm guessing my 'tie the chute to the cord, leaving it dangle during ascent' method isn't recommended?
[10:49] <RocketBoy> yeah - must do that - drogue to 1000m then main chute
[10:49] <SpeedEvil> RocketBoy: Ah - had wondered if that was the case. What did it actually land on?
[10:49] <eroomde> or free-fall
[10:49] <eroomde> payloads hopefully will fall less dangerously than rockets
[10:49] <daveake> Check. I have a 1kg payload and went for a 4' shoot which according to the chart results in a fairly slow descent (8mph) on the basis that if bits of balloon/string reduce the area, it'll still land at a safe speed.
[10:49] <RocketBoy> SpeedEvil: a tree (again)
[10:49] <eroomde> oh but you want orientation for the antenna. scrap that thought
[10:49] <daveake> chute not shoot LOL
[10:49] <SpeedEvil> :)
[10:50] <RocketBoy> think I'd make it barometric though
[10:50] <RocketBoy> cant trust a gps working under those condtions
[10:51] <RocketBoy> perhaps reefing
[10:51] <eroomde> well...
[10:51] <RocketBoy> rather than 2 chutes
[10:51] <eroomde> u-blox's were right on the nose to mach 0.8 as it happens :)
[10:51] <eroomde> even though they claim to only be good to 100m/s vertical
[10:51] <eroomde> they were going to 220m/s with pefect agreement with all our other sensors
[10:52] <cuddykid> started tipping it down here :( looks time to do a write up
[10:53] <eroomde> timers are great for reliability assuming you can accurately detect the start of your descent
[10:53] <RocketBoy> true
[10:53] <eroomde> and your Cd estimate is good enough, which is usually easier
[10:54] <eroomde> but yeah i guess baro would be the catch-all
[10:54] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: see RocketBoy's earlier issue WRT Cd
[10:54] <eroomde> what issue is that?
[10:54] <eroomde> scrollabck on irssi is a pain
[10:55] <RocketBoy> balloon attached
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> Balloon not shredding
[10:55] <eroomde> oh i see
[10:55] <RocketBoy> bit of a variable
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> It'd be nice to see about detectin the internal pressure rise, and then cutting down
[10:55] <RocketBoy> it wasn't tangled as far as i could see
[10:55] <eroomde> mmm, well if you're going to have sequenced things on descent, you might aswell sequence a pyro to cutaway the balloon
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> to get absolute max altitude with little risk
[10:56] <eroomde> we had that in the 'abort' case of our drop vehicle. we didn't want balloon affecting the sims of where we might land if we had to cancel the test
[10:56] <daveake> I thought about cut-downs for my project, but figured that I had enough to do and didn't want to risk triggering the cut-down too early!
[10:57] <eroomde> sure, there's no point putting them in if they're not really necessary
[10:57] <Darkside> i'd always be a bit worried about an automatic cut-down
[10:57] <eroomde> only adds to system complexity
[10:57] <Darkside> i'd prefer to trigger it manually from the ground
[10:57] <Upu> "came in hot" :) like that
[10:57] <eroomde> Darkside: we had a burst detect one
[10:57] <daveake> Using what to sense it?
[10:57] <RocketBoy> Upu: rocketry term
[10:58] <eroomde> so a 3-axis accelerometer would tell us the acceleration magnitude, and if it was <0.5g for 300ms, it would read that as a burst and pop the chute
[10:58] <eroomde> in means the balloon was detached within 0.3s of burst, reducing the chances of tanglidge
[10:58] <Darkside> couldn't other things cause that?
[10:58] <Upu> thats were you need interupts
[10:58] <Darkside> like high winds?
[10:59] <daveake> Check, though that's just the sort of thing I'd be worried would trigger at the wrong time if say the balloon hits a wind pocket
[10:59] <eroomde> we only 'armed' it about 5km below expected burst
[10:59] <eroomde> and there's no much dynamics at 25+ km
[10:59] <daveake> Ah, good :)
[10:59] <daveake> I think that a combination of checks like that is the way to go
[11:00] <eroomde> yeah
[11:00] <eroomde> the analysis goes up exponentially with 'stuff' that you have on the flight
[11:00] <eroomde> in terms of flight profile complexity
[11:01] <eroomde> for our parachute test vehicle, 90% of the effort was making sure it didn't hit the ground fast
[11:01] <eroomde> and there were correspondinly lots of ways that it might have hit the ground fast, because we had various pyros, periods of freefall, deployable bits and bobs
[11:03] <eroomde> we ended up with redundant flight computers, redundnat battery systems, redundant pyros per actuation point, 2 emergency parachutes (one pre-deployed, one packed in the nose cone). redundant uplinks, redundant downlinks. it got to be quite a big system quite quickly. so the moral is really: if you don't need it, don;t fly it, cos it only makes things disproportionately more complex
[11:08] <fsphil> that's quite a system
[11:09] <eroomde> well, land safely was a bigger priority than anything esle. deploying a test parachute into the correct flow regeime was definitely only objective 2
[11:10] <eroomde> the logic behind it all is in our paper, iuw
[11:13] <WillDuckworth> eroomde, do you have a link?
[11:16] <eroomde> WillDuckworth: half way down here: http://www.eng.cam.ac.uk/news/stories/2011/CU_Spaceflight/
[11:16] <eroomde> link to the paper
[11:17] <WillDuckworth> cheers
[11:20] <WillDuckworth> interesting stuff - are you guys still trying for the n-prize?
[11:21] <eroomde> nope
[11:21] <eroomde> not sure it's possible
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> Of course it's possible.
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> The issue is that you're not counting labour.
[11:21] <eroomde> i knew SpeedEvil would jump in precisely there
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> If you trade everything for labour cost, then you can do it.
[11:22] <WillDuckworth> time time time
[11:22] <WillDuckworth> or lack of
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> If you actually want to do it 'sanely' - for example, not laying up your own carbon-carbon composite - then it's really tricky.
[11:22] <eroomde> i'm not sure you can make a completely re-usable orbital delivery system with a 999 per launch cost
[11:23] <eroomde> no, carbon-carbon composites aren't the problem
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> If you don't count labour costs, I can believe it.
[11:23] <eroomde> i actually don't think you could do it
[11:23] <eroomde> i think it definitely falls into the category of napkin calculations being deceiving
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> I was meaning CCC for a proxy for random expensive stuff you can get cheaper if you DIY
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> But to get to 999, there is a _LOT_ of that stuff.
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> And trading qualification for specified stuff.
[11:25] <Laurenceb_> CF is 'easy'
[11:26] <cuddykid> WillDuckworth: is it the TX3H 868mhz you have?
[11:26] <Laurenceb_> i dont think CC is doable without some serious autoclave kit
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> For example, finding the one servo on ebay that will work for 4 quid, rather than going out and buying the one for 90 quid per each.
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> Indeed not.
[11:26] <WillDuckworth> cuddykid - for the sstv stuff, the telem is on 434 . 075/650
[11:27] <cuddykid> cool, cheers
[11:27] <fsphil> that going up this weekend?
[11:27] <WillDuckworth> not at moment fsphil
[11:27] <fsphil> ah, no worries - was thinking I'd need to start building an antenna
[11:28] <WillDuckworth> but sooooon, and debating wether to attach a rocket to it too? only an idea
[11:28] <fsphil> k.i.s.s. :)
[11:28] <WillDuckworth> _whether
[11:29] <cuddykid> WillDuckworth, know that would be cool!
[11:29] <cuddykid> *now
[11:31] <fsphil> would be that indeed
[11:32] <cuddykid> we need to take back the lead in the space race from those jp aerospace guys in the US!!
[11:32] <fsphil> I don't think anyone's flown a rockoon for a long time
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[11:33] <cuddykid> I was planning a rockoon - but going to work on the glider 1st
[11:34] <fsphil> first water-rocket above 30km :)
[11:35] <fsphil> if you can stop the water freezing anyway
[11:35] <fsphil> and the bottle bursting because of the pressure difference
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[11:36] <cuddykid> lol yeah
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> Bottles take ~150PSI or so fine.
[11:37] <WillDuckworth> i might just alter the cutdown pyro to just ignite a small estes rocket
[11:37] <cuddykid> oh wow, I thought the NTX2's had transmit power 100mW but they actually are 10mW :O
[11:39] <daveake> On the WRC they use 1W radio modems to track the cars via an aircraft repeater. Pretty impressive to me that these little 10mW transmitters can be decoded from 100miles+ away.
[11:41] <daveake> I tested mine yesterday by driving a mile or so away from home, using a mag-mount antenna on the car roof. Only lost data when I was the other side of a slight hill. Switched to the Yagi and that worked anyway :)
[11:42] <cuddykid> yeah, they are so impressive!
[11:44] <Laurenceb_> jp aerospace....
[11:44] <Laurenceb_> they are nutters
[11:45] <cuddykid> lol
[11:46] <Laurenceb_> i still dont get how they convinced the usaf to fund their crackpottery
[11:47] <cuddykid> I don't understand how they plan on getting their space station to float :S!
[11:47] <cuddykid> only thing I can think of is one ginormous tether
[11:50] <Laurenceb_> use all the hot air from their crazy talk
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[11:57] <fsphil> would a rocket launched at 30km still need to be shaped aerodynamically?
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[12:05] <cuddykid> fsphil, i guess to an extent
[12:06] <Laurenceb_> yes
[12:06] <Laurenceb_> if it was a small hpr solid certainly
[12:08] <fsphil> yea- there seems to be plenty enough air up there to push the payload about
[12:09] <cuddykid> would be cool to put a firework on a payload and take a photo of it exploding! - But I suppose the lack of oxygen would probably make it v difficult
[12:10] <Laurenceb_> shouldnt think so
[12:11] <fsphil> I think the material has it's own oxygen
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[12:15] <cuddykid> ahh, might try that then! :)
[12:15] <cuddykid> would be pretty cool!
[12:16] <daveake> I think the potassium nitrate in gunpowder provides the oxygen, so it sounds like it should work :)
[12:16] <cuddykid> awesome
[12:17] <fsphil> or just fill the balloon with H2 + O
[12:17] <fsphil> big firework :)
[12:19] <fsphil> I wonder if you'd still hear a firework going bang in the low pressure
[12:24] <fsphil> I'd worry about it not firing, and having a live explosive landing somewhere
[12:25] <cuddykid> yeah
[12:28] <daveake> You'd probably see the affect on the balloon too! There's NASA footage of solar panels on the Hubble (I think it was) flexing from the exhaust of the Shuttle's positioning thrusters as it moved away from it.
[12:28] <fsphil> I remember that
[12:28] <daveake> Looked scary to me!
[12:28] <fsphil> they used the shuttle thruster to push the old panels way
[12:28] <fsphil> away
[12:29] <daveake> cool
[12:30] <daveake> Final Shuttle launch on Friday, btw
[12:30] <Darkside> there's going to be a 23cm camera on the main fuel tank i think
[12:31] <daveake> I assume those guys in Florida will be sending up a balloon to photograph the launch trail
[12:31] <daveake> I watched Atlantis launch in 2009. Awesome experience.
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[12:47] <Upu> that was a really impressive picture last time
[12:49] <fsphil> I heard some weak radio chatter from the last discovery launch as it went over here - must try that again
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[12:52] <daveake> Cost of Shuttle launch = $450,000,000. Cost of HAB launch to photograph Shuttle - less than $450? :-)
[12:54] <fsphil> looks like ARISSat has been delayed again: http://www.uk.amsat.org/archives/arissat-1-delayed-until-august
[12:55] <fsphil> Where's Ellen Ripley when you need her
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> Doing Ghostbusters III says IMDB
[13:00] <fsphil> "the main holdup still being Bill Murray"
[13:00] <fsphil> bahg
[13:00] <fsphil> they could do him as a CGI character
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[13:04] <griffonbot> Received email: Dan Bowen "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Could this take peroxide? Re: 'Solar Pillow'"
[13:06] <Zuph> Mornin', #highaltitude
[13:07] <Upu> grrr
[13:07] <Upu> all they have to do is push it out of the door fsphil how hard can it be ? :)
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[13:41] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: Exciting activity on CommController source code! https://github.com/whitestarballoon/Com-Controller #arhab #ukhas [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/88241084072857600]
[13:43] <Zuph> More like CommController sauce code.
[13:43] <RocketBoy> http://imagebin.org/161524 - XABEN13 during the float period - relative altitude(m) vs time(s) - gravity waves or what? period of each cycle is about 5 mins (30 samples)
[13:43] <Zuph> (Because you have to be drinking to understand it)
[13:45] <cuddykid> interesting RocketBoy
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[13:47] <cuddykid> managed to remove all the duct tape from payload - recovered completely in tact :D - ready to fly again
[13:47] <cuddykid> however, I think I might change the payload as some things weren't thought out properly
[13:49] <fsphil> RocketBoy, gps being iffy?
[13:49] <fsphil> sitting on the ground my gps altitude is all over the place
[13:50] <cuddykid> fsphil, mine fluctuates by about 10m too
[13:50] <RocketBoy> na - don't think so
[13:50] <cuddykid> however, this is more than that
[13:51] <RocketBoy> the Lassen normally fluctuates a few m on the ground - but not this much
[13:51] <fsphil> I suppose that is a more smooth variation than what I see
[13:52] <fsphil> interesting that it didn't burst at the highest point
[13:54] <RocketBoy> I'll set the lassen going in a fixed open spot later to see what the dither is like
[13:54] <RocketBoy> bbl
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[14:09] <SamSilver> High Dan-K2VOL
[14:09] <Dan-K2VOL> hi Dave
[14:09] <SamSilver> waaaasup!!
[14:10] <Dan-K2VOL> Oh back to work after a nice 3 day weekend
[14:10] <SamSilver> aahh yes the 4th
[14:15] <fsphil> we wait until it's freezing cold before we have fireworks :)
[14:16] <NigeyS> lol
[14:26] <SAIDias> Hello WOrld
[14:26] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[14:27] <Upu> hola
[14:27] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BepyTSzueno
[14:27] <Laurenceb_> early wingsuits werent so good
[14:29] <RocketBoy> thats gotta hurt
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[14:34] <cuddykid> just done a full write up of the flight - details of individual failures coming soon!
[14:34] <Upu> wheres it at ?
[14:35] <cuddykid> just finishing off.. started a blog.. will provide link in a min
[14:35] <Upu> kk
[14:36] <cuddykid> http://habexperiments.wordpress.com/
[14:36] <cuddykid> :)
[14:38] <Upu> good write up :)
[14:39] <cuddykid> thanks Upu :)
[14:39] <cuddykid> will detail failures etc in a bit
[14:40] <fsphil> Will remembered the coordinates?
[14:40] <cuddykid> yep!
[14:42] <WillDuckworth> just!
[14:42] <fsphil> well done :)
[14:42] <cuddykid> haha, a quick cross check and all was confirmed!
[14:42] <WillDuckworth> i'd had a couple of beers too - almost impressive.
[14:42] <griffonbot> @adamcudworth: Quick debrief of #HABE1 flight - http://t.co/6q5TG3h More detailed analysis of failures will follow #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/adamcudworth/status/88256476921077760]
[14:42] <WillDuckworth> good write up - reminds me i must sort mine out too!
[14:42] <cuddykid> very impressed Will!
[14:42] <cuddykid> cheers
[14:43] <cuddykid> still can't believe that camera was 1 millisecond off working!
[14:45] <Dan-K2VOL> good quick writeup adam
[14:45] <Dan-K2VOL> glad to see you didn't land in a tree :-P
[14:45] <cuddykid> thanks Dan-K2VOL :)
[14:45] <Upu> a first this month... :)
[14:45] <cuddykid> yep! very close to trees though!
[14:45] <fsphil> language!
[14:45] <Upu> trees that is
[14:45] Action: hibby looks at a packed suitcase
[14:46] Action: Upu looks at hibby
[14:46] Action: fsphil looks despressed
[14:46] <fsphil> depressed
[14:46] <Dan-K2VOL> I posted a time-lapse video of two water-activated tree-release testing this weekend on youtube: http://youtube.com/steamfire
[14:46] <daveake> Nice write-up! What's the story with the camera not working?
[14:46] <Dan-K2VOL> yay Hibby,
[14:46] <Upu> someone made some last minute untested code changes... :)
[14:46] <daveake> Whoops
[14:46] <cuddykid> daveake: thanks, well, I adjusted code last min to make the camera "sleep" for longer
[14:47] <Dan-K2VOL> remember makerfaire july 30-31, we can fit you in someone's hotel room and probably get a discounted ticket still
[14:47] <daveake> Sounds like it worked .... LOL
[14:47] <cuddykid> I ended up being 1 millisecond away from it working lol
[14:47] <daveake> Damn!
[14:47] <cuddykid> I put sleep 100000 and if I had put sleep 999999 it would've worked
[14:47] <fsphil> an off-by-one
[14:47] <cuddykid> as for some reason 999999 was the arbitrary cut off!
[14:47] <daveake> What's "special" about 100000?
[14:47] <daveake> Wow
[14:48] <cuddykid> too many digits I think
[14:48] <daveake> 65535 I can understand, but 999999 ... strange
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> cuddykid: Ow. :)
[14:48] <fsphil> Someone defined a maximum number of digits in the CHDK code
[14:48] <daveake> Yeah, could be the length of the string rather than the number itself
[14:48] <cuddykid> basically it ticked over and then gave the command sleep -1 which tells it to shut down
[14:48] <daveake> Ah
[14:48] <fsphil> which itself is odd
[14:48] <cuddykid> yeah
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> cuddykid: you should mail the guy that coded the cutoff. :)
[14:49] <cuddykid> SpeedEvil: I should!
[14:49] <cuddykid> well.. at least I've learnt an important lesson :)
[14:49] <hibby> Dan-K2VOL: keeping it in mind ;)
[14:49] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[14:49] <cuddykid> could've had a lot worse consequences
[14:49] <hibby> Y'all just heading up to look?
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[14:50] <fsphil> "y'all" - you're not even there yet and you're using the lingo :p
[14:50] <daveake> At least it was just no photos; not quite on the scale of the Ariane 5 software bug :)
[14:50] <Dan-K2VOL> true
[14:51] <hibby> fsphil: indeed. It's worrying
[14:51] <fsphil> lol
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[14:53] <fsphil> I wonder if the Ariane programmer ever went on to develop for CHDK
[14:53] <daveake> LOL
[14:53] <Upu> if he's still a programmer...
[14:53] <daveake> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5_Flight_501 has the actual source code showing the bug
[14:53] <hibby> fsphil: wait till I start telling you to have a nice day
[14:54] <Dan-K2VOL> daveake oh that sucks
[14:54] <jevin> yeah i like how ADA could have helped saved their ass
[14:54] <jevin> but they decided they couldnt use it for performance reasons
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> Correctly decided.
[14:54] <jevin> a $370 million optimization ;-)
[14:55] <SpeedEvil> The issue was that it wasn't properly reviewed on going to the bigger rocket
[14:55] <eroomde> hey, find me a single courtse on software engineering that doesn't use that video in the very first lecture
[14:55] <eroomde> it's a teaching gift
[14:55] <jevin> well the biggest fail was lack of testing with realistic inputs
[14:55] <jevin> where range checking could have been enabled
[14:55] <eroomde> 'this is why software *engineering* matters'
[14:55] <eroomde> QED
[14:56] <jevin> test test test! NOW TEST SOME MORE!
[14:56] <eroomde> true that
[14:56] <eroomde> the people who control budgets don't like it though
[14:57] <jevin> testing takes time AND money? pffft who needs it? ;-)
[14:57] <eroomde> the apollo parachute system got >230 tests
[14:57] <jevin> it compiles, right? :-P
[14:57] <eroomde> the new one will be lucky if it gets 4
[14:57] <jevin> eroomde, and thats for a human vehicle?
[14:58] <jevin> granted, we have much more prior knowledge and simulation capability now
[14:58] <eroomde> yes
[14:58] <eroomde> we have very little simulation capability when it comes to parachutes
[14:58] <eroomde> it's a much weaker area than lots of other engineering simulation
[14:58] <eroomde> just because it's a much harder thing to simulate
[14:59] <jevin> i see... good luck spacemen! =|
[14:59] <jevin> and women!
[14:59] <eroomde> a flexible fabric thing unpacking and deploying into a supersonic flow... it's virtually impossible to simulate meaningfully
[14:59] <eroomde> and yes, you get all this bullshit about '99.999% reliability' for man rating
[15:00] <eroomde> well they're not going to pay for 100,000 tests so why even bother with such nonsense?
[15:00] <eroomde> ho hum
[15:01] <eroomde> no one has had to man-rate anything for space for about 40 years so it'll be interesting to see what they end up doing
[15:01] <eroomde> well, a launch and recovery system, which is harder to rate than an orbiting capsule anyway
[15:03] <Zuph> Overengineer by 300% of what limited tests and simulations indicate, ask questions later.
[15:04] <jevin> use lots of contracting so blame is easier to spread
[15:04] <eroomde> lol yes
[15:04] <eroomde> first question: 'um... why does it cost so much?'
[15:04] <eroomde> unfortunately it's really one guy who has to take charge of getting something man rated
[15:05] <eroomde> he'll have to fight to get everything through the (I think) 6 layers of checking at nasa
[15:05] <eroomde> some of the guys above him who have to approve it won't no a parachute from an umbrella
[15:05] <eroomde> it's going to be a really really difficult thing
[15:05] <eroomde> pity him
[15:07] <eroomde> he's also the same guy who watched his system do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl6lCr1vCo
[15:07] <eroomde> like i said, pity him :)
[15:07] <Zuph> Be interesting to see budgetary breakdowns between today and the apollo era stuff, and the stuff we're (re)doing today.
[15:07] <eroomde> oh apollo had like 7% US GDP as its budget at the peak of apollo
[15:08] <eroomde> just astronomically different today
[15:08] <daveake> wow
[15:08] <Zuph> Oh, I understand that.
[15:08] <eroomde> i take it back - 4.5%
[15:08] <Zuph> I mean, budget for a particular item of work, like "Parachute System".
[15:08] <eroomde> it's 0.6% atm
[15:08] <daveake> My HAB isn't4.57% of my personal gross annual product :)
[15:09] <eroomde> yes, it's much lower
[15:09] <eroomde> like i said, the apollo landing capsulte parachute system had about 230 tests
[15:09] <eroomde> this orion one may get 4 or 5
[15:10] <Zuph> Right, I understand. I wonder where the breakdown in budget is, though. Part of the problem is certainly raw input, but where do things like admin. overhead, etc. fall relative to 1960.
[15:10] <eroomde> of which the youtube vid above i linked to was one!
[15:11] <eroomde> i know there's a bunch more overhead to get stuff approved. i'll see if i can find numbers for you iuw
[15:11] <Upu> my parachute tested involved me running like an idiot round the car park with a pink parachute in tow
[15:11] <eroomde> the actual team working on it though is quite small
[15:11] <eroomde> and focussed
[15:12] <eroomde> car tests annoyingly don;t give you stability or anything, as there's too much crap coming off the car
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> cat + pole
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> car
[15:13] <Upu> lol
[15:13] <Upu> attach one cat to parachute, drop
[15:13] <Upu> if cat lives = sucess
[15:13] <eroomde> :)
[15:13] <eroomde> we went with SpeedEvil's suggestion
[15:13] <eroomde> built a little tower to the back of a trailor just to get less of the car's wake
[15:14] <daveake> We have 4 cats, so that's 4 tests at least :-)
[15:14] <daveake> Maybe 4 * 9 ....? LOL
[15:16] <Upu> I see what you did there :)
[15:18] <fsphil> would be cheaper to use buttered toast .. plus you wouldn't get scratched as much trying to install it
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[15:18] <daveake> true :)
[15:19] <mixio> Hi all
[15:19] <Zuph> Do dead cats exhibit a quantum toast effect, or just the living ones?
[15:20] <fsphil> only if you observe them. maybe
[15:20] <fsphil> *don't
[15:21] <Zuph> Well, affix a cat and buttered toast to your payload, and make sure you turn off your transmitter right before it hits the ground.
[15:22] <Zuph> Avoids the whole contentious issue of parachutes.
[15:22] <Laurenceb_> rogallo avoid chutes :P
[15:22] <daveake> You'll have the Toast Protection League out on the streets though
[15:22] <fsphil> unless the cat likes toast
[15:23] <Laurenceb_> well its a fabric wing so its tachnically a chute :P
[15:23] <fsphil> all this from a typo :p
[15:24] <daveake> :)
[15:25] <imrcly> Dan-K2VOL: do you remember the sort style that Tim mentioned
[15:26] <Dan-K2VOL> oh he mentioned a linked list, but that's space prohibitive on a microcontroller
[15:27] <Zuph> What are you sorting?
[15:27] <Dan-K2VOL> we don't actually need to sort, we just need to run a circular buffer with data going in to both ends of the buffer
[15:28] <Zuph> How big will it need to be?
[15:29] <imrcly> all the short and long report address locations
[15:30] <Zuph> Is it important that new elements overwrite oldest elements in the event of an overflow?
[15:31] <imrcly> yes
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[15:32] <Zuph> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_buffer
[15:33] <Zuph> imrcly: Dan-K2VOL: The second example on that page would work great, ripping out all the malloc junk.
[15:37] <Dan-K2VOL> The rub is that we want to store records of two different byte lengths in the queue, so I think the main question is how to delineate between the two types. Size A will always go in on the front of the buffer, and Size B will always enter the back of the buffer
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Or just pad.
[15:38] <Zuph> Oh, you want to store them in the same buffer?
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Or two buffers
[15:38] <imrcly> if we just store addresses in the que with an mha number it will always be 5 bytes
[15:39] <Zuph> I figured there would be two buffers, one for short, one for long. It's a simple logic step to figure out which one needs sent to the sat next.
[15:39] <imrcly> use the mha as an identifier for what type of message it is so that it can be processed accordingly
[15:39] <Dan-K2VOL> we have only 400 bytes to work with for the whole buffer, and type A is 6 bytes long, and type B is 4 bytes long
[15:40] <Dan-K2VOL> imrcly we can't do that, the MHA must be continuously increasing, we couldn't ever insert things onto the top of the queue
[15:40] <imrcly> does it have to be sequential?
[15:41] <Zuph> Is this for storing eeprom addresses of short/long reports to be sent, or something else?
[15:41] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph, the plan worked out at the last meeting was that we'll just do a single buffer as I'd described above to ease the decisionmaking tree in software
[15:41] <Dan-K2VOL> imrcly yes
[15:42] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph, it will will be for storing eeprom addresses of long messages (4 bytes) and full short messages (6 bytes)
[15:42] <imrcly> then dropping the mha number and just using the address locations as the identifier would work if we use defined address blocks for each type
[15:42] <Dan-K2VOL> imrcly that then turns into two separate queues
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[15:42] <imrcly> why?
[15:43] <Dan-K2VOL> because you're going to have to manage each block as a separate queue!
[15:43] <imrcly> ok, is there a technical reason why the mha number has to be sequintial
[15:44] <Dan-K2VOL> perhaps a circular buffer with a pointer to the dividing byte between short and long messages
[15:44] <Zuph> Well, then the choice would appear to be 1) Make the queue logic more complicated (sorting shorts to the top always, etc) and increasing the size of the single queue or 2) More complicated decision tree in software.
[15:44] <Dan-K2VOL> yes, we're looking at the first option at this point
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[15:48] <Dan-K2VOL> possibly no orbcomm limitation on sequential MHA number, however it's unclear how it will behave
[15:48] <Dan-K2VOL> imrcly
[15:49] <imrcly> ok
[15:49] <Zuph> Safe option: 7 byte queue item with first byte indicating type. Unsafe option: pad 0xff or 0x00 on to eeprom addresses, since encoded lats and lons are unlikely to approach these values unless we are near one of the poles.
[15:53] <imrcly> i think penciling some flows might help
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> Is that a live one on the tracker?
[15:55] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph, since the long messages will be a contiguous block in the buffer, and the short messages will as well, what about simply tracking the boundary between the two areas
[15:55] <Dan-K2VOL> imrcly I agree
[15:57] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: What do you mean, contiuous block?
[15:57] <Zuph> *contiguous
[15:57] <Dan-K2VOL> hold on, what's the terms for putting data into stacks? push/pop and what else
[15:58] <Dan-K2VOL> aha! it's a Deck queue that I'm talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-ended_queue
[15:59] <Dan-K2VOL> where long messages get pushed on the back, and short messages get pushed on the front, and things get handed to the sat modem ONLY by popping off the front
[16:02] <Dan-K2VOL> so the long messages will all be together at the back, and the sort messages (if there are any) will always be together at the front
[16:06] <Zuph> I'm thinking that might be more computationally expensive on an AVR platform, but I'm also thinking that I won't be able to explain it well without a whiteboard.
[16:07] <Zuph> brb
[16:07] <imrcly> i think we all have similar ideas but just need to hash it out
[16:08] <Dan-K2VOL> sounds like we should hit the boards tonight at the meeting
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[16:16] <cuddykid> HABE 1 - What worked, what didn't - http://habexperiments.wordpress.com/
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[17:02] <cuddykid> right.. just cut the glider wing... at the end, the batteries powering the hot wire cutter started to pop & crackle! Had to do a quick turn off
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:03] <cuddykid> was a run away moment - but then the problem was only going to get worse unless I disconnected it!
[17:05] <griffonbot> @adamcudworth: Styrofoam glider wing cut - 1st step towards #HABEglider #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/adamcudworth/status/88292454956146688]
[17:13] <Dan-K2VOL> cuddykid what altitudes are you going to try to control through?
[17:16] <cuddykid> Dan-K2VOL: planning on making it more like a missile (small wings) - so it can survive pull out - that's the advice from the RC experts anyway!
[17:17] <cuddykid> alternatively another idea I was playing around with was letting it descend by parachute until stable air reached then cutting chute
[17:18] <Randomskk> where would you launch from?
[17:18] <Laurenceb_> if i have an integer in c, and multiple by say 1/3.3, is it promoted to float?
[17:18] <Randomskk> no
[17:18] <Laurenceb_> so how is it multipled?
[17:18] <cuddykid> Randomskk: near me - but legality etc need to be confirmed
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> cuddykid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi0hrjqU15I
[17:19] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: 1/3.3 = 1/3 = 0
[17:19] <Randomskk> so it just zeroes it
[17:19] <hibby> Laurenceb_: best bet is to set a float variable = int*1/3.3
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> cuddykid: IIRC those are doing ~30G
[17:19] <Randomskk> cuddykid: legality is illegal in the UK, basically
[17:19] <Laurenceb_> oh dear
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> zero is bad :P
[17:20] <cuddykid> ahh
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> whats illegal?
[17:20] <cuddykid> I'm going to contact CAA though
[17:20] <Dan-K2VOL> cuddykid, if you have small wings then you'll have to maintain a very high ground speed on landing - could be dangerous
[17:20] <Randomskk> autonomous fixed wing gliders or similar
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> gliders?
[17:20] <Randomskk> things that are not parachutes :P
[17:20] <cuddykid> can't see why it should be illegal - guess they've never had anything like this though before
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> yeah you need a directional chute
[17:20] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: to third an integer, multiply by nine and divide by three or something
[17:20] <SpeedEvil> cuddykid: Not compliant to the legislation
[17:20] <cuddykid> Dan-K2VOL - aiming to build it like the gps boomerang
[17:20] <Laurenceb_> fast things falling onto small children
[17:21] <Randomskk> be careful of overflow when doing so
[17:21] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[17:21] <Randomskk> cuddykid: there's actual laws about it
[17:21] <Laurenceb_> im writing the dactyl pwm driver
[17:21] <Laurenceb_> it needs to eat us pwm values and set the register
[17:21] <Laurenceb_> *microsecond
[17:21] <cuddykid> Randomskk: I've had a brief look through, they seem to be more lenient after the 2009 ANO revision
[17:21] <cuddykid> I'll contact them though
[17:21] <Laurenceb_> weird 1/3.00765 factor in there :S
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[17:22] <Randomskk> I'm not a lawyer, but as I understood it the the relevant legislation only allows things to be flying if you are in unaided visual contact and they're not over a crowd of people
[17:22] <Randomskk> and you can take full flight control manually if it becomes required
[17:23] <cuddykid> I'll have a look :)
[17:23] <Randomskk> in other words no autonomous, no overflying festivals, no deployments from balloons
[17:23] <Randomskk> except for parachutes, and by perhaps twisting a little, parachute-derived flight control
[17:23] <cuddykid> CAA always put a dampner on things
[17:23] <hibby> cuddykid: come with me to america!
[17:23] <Randomskk> but if you have an interpretation that reads differently that would be great, a lot of people want to do that kind of thing
[17:23] <Randomskk> or yea, go to america, middle of the desert, no one cares and you can do pretty much anything
[17:23] <Dan-K2VOL> what happened to GPS boomerang anyway
[17:24] <cuddykid> yeah, may do rogallo, if theres no luck
[17:24] <cuddykid> hibby: I would love to go to america!
[17:24] <Laurenceb_> or parafoil, but it can tangle
[17:24] <cuddykid> in fact going there in just over a week lol
[17:24] <hibby> cuddykid: do what I did and get a job there, and be paid to go
[17:24] <Dan-K2VOL> perhaps you could do it in ICAO space and land in another country
[17:24] <cuddykid> nice hibby, what are you doing?
[17:24] <hibby> working in GE aviation
[17:24] <cuddykid> cool!
[17:24] <Laurenceb_> general electric?
[17:25] <Laurenceb_> nice
[17:25] <hibby> avionics div
[17:26] <hibby> not going to be an easy ride, i suspect
[17:26] <hibby> leave tomorrow am, though
[17:27] <Laurenceb_> you are starting a job there or what?
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[17:29] <hibby> only for a few months
[17:30] <hibby> at their expense
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[17:41] <cuddykid> hibby: good luck! I'm sure it will be fantastic!
[17:42] <Zuph> hibby: Weren't you saaying you'd be in Cincinnati?
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[17:42] <Dan-K2VOL> I think he will Zuph, I invited him down to visit LVL1 :-)
[17:43] <Zuph> heh, good, he should stop by #hive13 too :-p
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[17:52] Action: fsphil needs a cool job related to flying or space :p
[17:52] <Zuph> fsphil: me too
[17:52] <cuddykid> fsphil: jp aerospace ;)
[17:53] <fsphil> haha
[17:53] <cuddykid> could work on/in their space station haha
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> SpaceX
[17:55] <fsphil> goodness JP's website is worse than I expected
[17:55] <cuddykid> haha
[17:55] <cuddykid> nothing is well documented which is really annoying!
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[18:06] <Laurenceb_> heh JP earspace
[18:09] <SelfishMan> Are there any US oriented versions of this channel that you guys can recommend?
[18:11] <Zuph> This channel :) As far as I know, the US balloon communities are a lot more fragmented and insular. There are quite a few US people here (myself included)
[18:12] <SamSilver> it an international hot pot
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> And a canadian or three
[18:12] <SamSilver> LazyLepard is from germany
[18:13] <SamSilver> Darkside: is from down under
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> A couple of australians
[18:13] <SamSilver> I am from South Africa
[18:13] <SelfishMan> Zuph: good to hear
[18:13] <Upu> I'm from Yorkshire!
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> Scotland
[18:13] <SelfishMan> I'm in the Southwest Montana area
[18:14] <cuddykid> mixio is from Greece I think
[18:14] <SamSilver> shuu Montana has a lot of sky
[18:14] <cuddykid> I'm from Worcester :)
[18:14] <SelfishMan> JGC inspired me and a 10 year old to prove the earth is round
[18:14] <SelfishMan> SamSilver: yes, plenty of sky and way too many mountains
[18:14] <cuddykid> SelfishMan: I read your story somewhere a couple of months ago - it was great :)
[18:15] <SelfishMan> cuddykid: wasn't me
[18:15] <SamSilver> SelfishMan: story ??? linky please
[18:15] <cuddykid> ahh
[18:15] <SamSilver> oOh!
[18:15] <cuddykid> SamSilver: it was ageeeees ago, not sure what people were called
[18:16] <SelfishMan> We just talked about it last night. I've wanted to do this for years and now there seems to be a good community to work with
[18:16] <cuddykid> yeah, it's a very good community
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[18:18] <SelfishMan> having the money to make it happen helps a lot too :)
[18:21] <fsphil> though it's amazing what you can do on a budget
[18:21] <fsphil> I think my payload box cost about £50
[18:21] <fsphil> yikes got really windy here all of a sudden
[18:22] <SelfishMan> I don't expect it to be too expensive but since I have *nothing* right now for hardware to make this happen there will be a bit of an investment up front
[18:22] <SamSilver> afk
[18:23] <fsphil> the gas seems to be the most expensive component atm
[18:23] <Zuph> It isn't too bad. I think $50-70 in the US.
[18:23] <cuddykid> gas & radio (receiver)
[18:23] <fsphil> I think most of the HE comes from the US doesn't it?
[18:23] <Zuph> For a small one. We'll be using like $120 worth for White Star.
[18:23] <Zuph> fsphil: Yeah
[18:23] <fsphil> radio isn't so much a problem in the US, as they can use APRS
[18:24] <Zuph> Gov't started a stockpile in the 30's, and just recently started selling it off for cheap :)
[18:24] <fsphil> the cheap stuff hasn't reached us yet lol
[18:24] <fsphil> I'm too chicken to try H2, even though I'm sure it's quite safe
[18:25] <Zuph> PR nightmare if the local tabloid picks up on it :-p
[18:26] <fsphil> I like having eyebrows
[18:27] <SelfishMan> Yeah, APRS is what I was thinking but I'm going to need a license for that
[18:28] <SelfishMan> Which is fine since I've been planning on that anyway
[18:29] <fsphil> yea, they're useful to have
[18:31] <Zuph> They're super easy to get.
[18:31] <Zuph> Tech in the US is a joke.
[18:33] <SelfishMan> yep
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[18:43] <Laurenceb_> pwm working on dactyl XD
[18:43] <Laurenceb_> ill order the v tail trainer tomorrow :)
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> I had designs for a little CF egg to put my avionics inside, to copw with worst-case oopses.
[18:44] <Laurenceb_> heh
[18:45] <Laurenceb_> no gps reception
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[18:58] <Laurenceb_> http://www.stahlseite.de/buderus-edelstahl38.htm
[18:58] <Laurenceb_> so thats the screwdriver bit for the iphone mega
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:00] <fsphil-eee> was there a (very low) flight in the US today? some data on the tracker
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> I noticed that earlier
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> Looks sort-of-plausible for a overinflated party-balloon type of launch
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> http://www.stahlseite.de/buderus-edelstahl18.htm
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> thats one big lathe
[19:07] <Laurenceb_> but more importantly... why is it pink
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[19:32] <cuddykid> hmm.. going to try and advertise to fill up party balloon to get some money back on the helium I have left
[19:32] <Upu> lol
[19:32] <Upu> enterprising
[19:32] <cuddykid> indeed haha
[19:32] <cuddykid> probably got enough gas left for about 100 or so standard balloons so will charge a little to fill them up!
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[19:39] <fsphil> the price they sell them in the town at the weekend, you could pay for all the helium and make a small profit
[19:40] <cuddykid> yeah, I'm going to ask the marketing guy at my old school who is doing nicely out of my publicity and see if he can drop in a request in the weekly newsletter for the primary school part
[19:42] <cuddykid> right.. I've got £5 free on this preloaded orange card I got - wondering what to spend it on (value has to be £5 or lower) - found some mini servos on ebay for £3.50 ish
[19:42] <hibby> Zuph: well remembered
[19:42] <hibby> the 'move' is tomorrow.
[19:43] <fsphil> got all your dollars ready?
[19:43] <fsphil> or getting them the other side?
[19:43] <hibby> got $300 sorted
[19:43] <hibby> will get paid other side.
[19:44] <fsphil> sweet
[19:44] <hibby> totally
[19:45] <hibby> they're picking up my flights, accomodation, wages
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[19:53] <fsphil> hope it goes well! sounds like quite an adventure
[19:55] <Zuph> hibby: Cincinnati's a neat city. Make sure to visit nearby Dayton and Columbus, though. Louisville too, of course.
[19:57] <Zuph> Dayton has what might be the best electronics surplus store in the world, Mendelson's.
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[20:06] <hibby> Zuph: nice one. You local to the area?
[20:08] <Zuph> My dad grew up in Cincy, and I grew up in Louisville, so I've got a pretty good handle on the Louisville/Northern Kentucky/Cincy area.
[20:08] <hibby> nice one
[20:09] <hibby> aha!
[20:10] Action: hibby something clicks.
[20:10] <hibby> you'll know dan then
[20:10] <Zuph> heh, I've seen more of Dan than most of my family this past winter :-p
[20:11] <hibby> nice
[20:11] <hibby> probably see some of me
[20:12] <Zuph> Look forward to it. Bit of a drive; They providing a car too?
[20:13] <hibby> maybe... it's a bit on the rocks... I think they're providing a car pool. It's been downgraded from a car.
[20:14] <Zuph> :( That will make it difficult in Cincinatti.
[20:14] <hibby> totally.
[20:14] <hibby> be making enough to hire one for a weekend
[20:14] <Zuph> Well, anywhere in the US that isn't NYC, Chicago or DC.
[20:17] <hibby> it's only $50ish on the buses
[20:17] <Zuph> Heh, I suggest avoiding most bus services, esp. greyhound.
[20:18] <hibby> really?
[20:18] <hibby> how so?
[20:19] <Zuph> Well, avoid if possible. The bus stations are in the crummiest areas of town possible, the busses are dirty, and the company is indifferent as to quality of service.
[20:19] <hibby> fair enough
[20:20] <Zuph> Louisville isn't *too* bad. You're unlikely to get mugged at the bus station these days, but you will have to run a gauntlet of homeless panhandlers.
[20:20] <Dan-K2VOL> but we'd still pick you up hibby :-)
[20:20] <hibby> Dan-K2VOL: I know many young ladies that'd pick me up :p
[20:20] <Zuph> Hiring a car *can* be really cheap for a weekend. Unless you're under 25 :-\
[20:21] <hibby> that is the flaw
[20:21] <hibby> equally, im on roughly $350/week, so it won't be too bad
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[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:26] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> thats not much :(
[20:26] <Randomskk> Zuph: my plan for a few summer's time is a greyhound pass and a long while in northern america :P
[20:26] <Randomskk> however by this point on my journey I don't expect to still have any valuables worth stealing so
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> heh
[20:26] <Randomskk> hibby: $350/wk for expenses, or?
[20:26] <Zuph> Randomskk: It's definitely a way to meet interesting people
[20:27] Action: Laurenceb_ is currently trying to repay student loan
[20:27] <Randomskk> Zuph: haha
[20:27] <Randomskk> the wrong side of interesting?
[20:27] <Zuph> Plenty of both sides of interesting.
[20:27] <Laurenceb_> £9K down £10K to go :-/
[20:27] <Randomskk> excellent
[20:27] <Randomskk> well it should be a fun trip
[20:27] <Randomskk> I'm getting there overland
[20:28] <Randomskk> which means sailing the oceans >_>
[20:28] <hibby> Randomskk: straight to the band account
[20:28] <Randomskk> which will actually mean sitting on a boat for weeks looking at the sea going "why the fuck didn't I fly"
[20:28] <hibby> Randomskk: they've already covered my flights and accomodation
[20:28] <Randomskk> nice
[20:28] <Zuph> Randomskk: hah, definitely an interesting way to go!
[20:28] <Randomskk> Zuph: https://randomskk.net/atw/ I am doing it properly =D
[20:28] <Laurenceb_> hibby: interesting, so what is this a part time job?
[20:29] <Zuph> Randomskk: I've a vague notion of going London-Beijing by train. Very vague.
[20:29] <Randomskk> do it! it's great. I went london-vladivostok which is like most of the way
[20:29] <Randomskk> though I imagine you do it via mongolia or something
[20:29] <Randomskk> mongolia's great too though! ulan-bator is a great city
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: you've heard about jcoxons trip?
[20:30] <Randomskk> he linked me to a photo but I don't think I heard the full details
[20:30] <Randomskk> it included ulan-ude aiui
[20:30] Action: Laurenceb_ forgets
[20:30] <Zuph> Randomskk: Mongol Rally, very daring :)
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> inbvolved a rally of some sort
[20:30] <Randomskk> ooh. I should ask him more sometime
[20:31] <Laurenceb_> how much would this cost tho O_o
[20:31] <Randomskk> Zuph: if we can get places, anyway...
[20:31] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: about £7k, rough guess
[20:31] <Randomskk> well. slightly educated guess
[20:31] <Randomskk> boats for two weeks are expensive
[20:31] <Randomskk> greyhound bus pass is cheap as dirt
[20:31] <hibby> Laurenceb_: KTP with GE aviation
[20:31] <Randomskk> london to mongolia by car is surprisingly cheap
[20:32] <hibby> Zuph: in my absence, mrs hibby is heading to shanghai to work with IBM for 2 months
[20:32] <hibby> I'll tell you if it's alright
[20:32] <Zuph> Randomskk: If your car makes it the whole way :-p
[20:32] <Randomskk> hah :P
[20:33] <Randomskk> we're probably taking 2-3 cars
[20:33] <Randomskk> so even if one fails totally we can squeeze together
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: not that bad
[20:33] <Laurenceb_> still, could pay off most of my remaining student loan
[20:33] <Zuph> hibby: I've got friends teaching in Lanzhou right now. They're having an alright time. They miss cheese.
[20:34] <Zuph> Shanhai is quite a bit more metropolitan :)
[20:34] <Zuph> *Shanghai
[20:34] <hibby> lol, 'a bit'
[20:34] <hibby> biggest metro in the world, growing at 5 feet an hour
[20:35] <Randomskk> so a friend is asking about getting analogue values into his computer via buying some kind of datalogger, does anyone have any ideas?
[20:35] <Zuph> hibby: At 3.3 million people, I would have figured Lanzhou wouldn't be a backwater, but evidently it is.
[20:36] <hibby> Randomskk: guess it depends on how quantized he wants the data
[20:36] <Randomskk> it's from like a tensometer so probably not all that, dunno
[20:36] <hibby> we have things in the uni that will quantize data to 128bits, at 5mhz ;)
[20:37] <hibby> they are expensive
[20:38] <hibby> if it comes to logging data, I quite like using the arduinoi.
[20:38] <hibby> -i
[20:38] <hibby> using processing, can get it to ouput csv data and allsorts
[20:38] <Randomskk> same personally but I think he's probably looking for something that doesn't require learning or doing much|any electronics :P
[20:47] <Dan-K2VOL> randomskk check out adafruit's blogh
[20:47] <Dan-K2VOL> the USB CEE
[20:47] <Dan-K2VOL> new product
[20:48] <hibby> Dan-K2VOL: very cool
[20:48] <Laurenceb_> i dont see a usb cee
[20:49] <hibby> bottom of page 1
[20:52] <Randomskk> :3 http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2008/07/22/arm-breakout-nixies-and-more/
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> hi Dan-K2VOL RocketBoy fsphil
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[21:07] <fsphil> howdy LL
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[21:40] <jcoxon> evening all
[21:40] <NigeyS> evening james
[21:40] <hibby> evening
[21:40] <fsphil> 'lo'lo
[21:40] <SelfishMan> afternoon
[21:40] <SelfishMan> (yeah, I'm that guy)
[21:41] <hibby> im soon to be that guy, don't worry
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[21:45] <Upu> evening
[21:49] <Upu> just playing round with flash media encoder http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ukhas
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[21:51] <fsphil> streaming nicely
[21:51] <Upu> set it to quite a high bit rate
[21:52] <Upu> boo
[21:52] <Upu> apart from the ads
[21:52] <Upu> but not sure what I can do to avoid those
[21:53] <fsphil> setup your own streaming server :)
[21:53] <Upu> yes that is a good idea :)
[21:53] <Upu> how ? :)
[21:54] <fsphil> simplest way is with html5 video, though you leave out IE
[21:54] <fsphil> vlc can encode video and send it to an icecast server
[21:55] <fsphil> html5 browser can display the stream
[21:55] <Upu> need to make it accessible :)
[21:56] <Upu> rather not block people out
[21:56] <Upu> however open source is good
[21:56] <fsphil> there's a java client that can view the icecast / theora streams in IE, but it means installing java
[21:56] <fsphil> which is no fun
[21:56] <Randomskk> icecast streams can be displayed via vlc or other windows media players for people on IE, can't it?
[21:56] <fsphil> indeed
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[21:57] <Upu> ok I'll have a play with that
[21:57] <BrainDamage> almost every player can play icecast streas
[21:58] <fsphil> pretty much all but IE and safari
[21:58] <Upu> tommorrow that is
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[21:58] <Upu> calling it a night now :)
[21:58] Action: fsphil looks out the window
[21:58] <fsphil> so it is
[21:58] <fsphil> time flies
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[22:07] <BudgetEngineer> Quick question about balloon filling - if I regulate the helium tank down to ~ 10 bar, do I need to use any special fittings to connect it to the fill adapter?
[22:08] <BudgetEngineer> Or can I use standard air compressor hose and fittings?
[22:11] <fsphil> you mean attach the hose directly to the tank?
[22:11] <BudgetEngineer> I intend to use a regulator on the tank, then connect to the hose
[22:11] <fsphil> ah
[22:11] <fsphil> sounds sensible
[22:11] <BudgetEngineer> Thanks.
[22:11] <fsphil> as long as both ends are well sealed
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[00:00] --- Wed Jul 6 2011