highaltitude.log.20110629

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[02:06] <linear_shift_p4> Just found out that my "custom protocol" is the same thing v.92 dial up uses (PCM signalling).
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[02:07] <linear_shift_p4> Neat thing is, I could squeeze 64 kbps in the 22m part 15 band quite easily with that, provided I have decent SNR on receive.
[02:08] <linear_shift_p4> The band is like 14 kHz wide, and I only need ~8 kHz.
[02:09] <linear_shift_p4> Half of the channel would be dedicated to the video stream, and the other two would be the uplink and downlink data channels.
[02:10] <linear_shift_p4> 16 kbps is plenty for GPS telemetry and system control.
[02:10] <linear_shift_p4> I'd think.
[02:10] <linear_shift_p4> That's 16k up and down.
[02:11] <linear_shift_p4> Erm.
[02:11] <linear_shift_p4> I should say good SNR.
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[02:14] <linear_shift_p4> At 100 km, a two meter long antenna and the max 3 mW TX power would be like 2.2 nW/m^2... Hallelujah for SDR. :P
[02:16] <linear_shift_p4> Give that a good boost with a preamp, and feed it to an SDR using a decent soundcard.
[02:16] <linear_shift_p4> s/using/outputting to/
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[05:20] <BudgetEngineer> Can GPS signals penetrate 3" of extruded polystyrene insulation?
[05:25] <Darkside> yes
[05:30] <BudgetEngineer> Thanks. That said, how much can a Kaymont 1200 gram balloon lift?
[05:30] <Darkside> nfi
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[07:47] <griffonbot> Received email: Edward Moore "Re: [UKHAS] Re: UKHAS Conference 2011"
[07:51] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] Re: UKHAS Conference 2011"
[07:57] <griffonbot> Received email: Martin Sweeney "Re: [UKHAS] UKHAS Conference 2011"
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[09:56] <cuddykid> launch predictions improving
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[09:58] <cuddykid> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=bb1368beb65638f4a7bfa11eef347bc361630a9e
[09:59] <fsphil> any movement on the caa front?
[09:59] <cuddykid> yeah, got clearance on monday :)
[09:59] <fsphil> congrats :D
[10:00] <cuddykid> :D
[10:00] <fsphil> excellent prediction too .. you shouldn't have to drive too far
[10:00] <cuddykid> but prob is, it says W/SW at max range 20miles - link above is probably pushing it
[10:00] <cuddykid> yeah, looks good
[10:01] <cuddykid> hopefully the loop will move more to W
[10:01] <fsphil> what happens if you slow the ascent?
[10:03] <cuddykid> I'll have a play around...
[10:04] <cuddykid> not much at all
[10:04] <cuddykid> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=f5beb4b74b5d395ac42f40a4289e74527aa8a493
[10:05] <cuddykid> just cautious that the balloon looks to be drifting into the flight path for BHX
[10:12] <griffonbot> @adamcudworth: #HABE1 Provisional launch date 2nd July (~2pm) - Will keep predictions monitored and update in due course #UKHAS [http://twitter.com/adamcudworth/status/86014165738721281]
[10:14] <fsphil> nigeys will be well placed to help track if he's free
[10:14] <cuddykid> yeah, hopefully as it's a saturday people could listen in :)
[10:15] <cuddykid> theres a group of HAM people near me and they said they would try and listen in too
[10:15] <fsphil> I certainly should be
[10:15] <cuddykid> thanks fsphil!
[10:15] <fsphil> I tried getting our local hams to listen for mine, but they didn't bother :)
[10:15] <fsphil> I'm doing a talk later in the year so I'll try and bully them in person :)
[10:15] <cuddykid> that's a shame, I think the ones near me are restarting their near space program so are interested!
[10:16] <cuddykid> now the big thing is whether or not my botch job of a payload will survive :P lol
[10:16] <cuddykid> I have big doubts about the antenna
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[10:27] <fsphil> what style is it?
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[10:50] <cuddykid> fsphil: 1/4 wave ground plane
[10:50] <cuddykid> so, 4 ground radials perp to driven element
[10:50] <fsphil> should be fine so long as they're securely connected, both mechanically and electrically
[10:51] <fsphil> I failed on the mechanical one last time
[10:51] <fsphil> well, time before last
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[11:01] <cuddykid> well, it's very botchy as there's big lumps of solder everywhere haha!
[11:06] <fsphil> done a continuity test on it?
[11:06] <fsphil> best thing to do is a range test, if the local geography allows it
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[11:36] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: On a silly topic. How well would the magnetometer +compass work for north-south location?
[11:38] <Laurenceb> about 0.5 degress or something
[11:38] <Laurenceb> seems most of my error is from magno nonlinearity
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> Funky.
[11:38] <Laurenceb> im guessing its nickel resistors and so on
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> Idly wondering about my new potential dev-device/phone
[11:38] <Laurenceb> rms error is about 0.2 degrees
[11:39] <Laurenceb> so north south is maybe 0.5 worst case
[11:39] <Laurenceb> atm the pitot is annoying me massively
[11:39] <Laurenceb> everything else works at or better than datasheet spec
[11:40] <Laurenceb> looking with a very nice scope at work it seems things are rather noisey on the analogue rail
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:40] <Laurenceb> itg pumps out +-400uv at 250khz noise, and lsm303 generates a 5mv wobble with each magno sample
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> Hope that's why.
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> MOAR CAPS?/
[11:41] <Laurenceb> yeah maybe
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> Great it's all working - sorta.
[11:41] <Laurenceb> theres also a few hundered uv of very high frequency emi from the stm32
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> Done any more with the radio than checked itdoesn't explode when turned on?//
[11:42] <Laurenceb> annoyingly my scope is rather noisey
[11:42] <Laurenceb> ive checked current and voltages
[11:42] <Laurenceb> im going to port the openpilot code at some point.. i really need something to rx
[11:42] <Laurenceb> cant get my hands on a openpilot pipextreme module yet :S
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> You only have one board populated? :)
[11:43] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:43] <Laurenceb> well yeah i could populate a second, but itd be nice to have a usb dongle
[11:43] <Laurenceb> pipextreme does everything i need
[11:45] <Laurenceb> the stm32 performance is pretty amazing - 13 component ekf+ control loops + atmospheric pressure kalman filter running at 125hz
[11:46] <Laurenceb> its using about 95% of the clk cycles XD
[11:47] <Laurenceb> but yeah im not brilliantly hopeful about the pitot - i need +-1uv noise on the data inot the adc
[11:48] <Laurenceb> atm i have about 10 rms
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> AWesome!
[11:50] <Laurenceb> no not awesome
[11:50] <Laurenceb> order of mag too big to be useable
[11:50] <SpeedEvil> I mean performance.
[11:50] <SpeedEvil> Sorry.
[11:51] <Laurenceb> heh
[11:51] <Laurenceb> itd help if i could see whats going on, but the scope leads are picking up too much emi
[11:52] <Laurenceb> id be tempted to buy one of these and hack it on - http://www.mbridgetech.com/pressure-sensors.php
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> Silly non-ideal testgear.
[11:52] <SpeedEvil> how much?
[11:52] <Laurenceb> apparently you can get down to 1mPa noise
[11:52] <Laurenceb> dont know
[11:54] <Laurenceb> - 0.1pa even
[11:54] <Laurenceb> http://www.mbridgetech.com/pdfs/microflow1008.pdf
[11:54] <Laurenceb> pretty mental stuff
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> A millipascal!
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> Wow.
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> That's - as an aside - make a damn good level.
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> Two RF modules, ...
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> Though I suppose any breeze at all would be hard to deal with
[11:56] <Laurenceb> its a mems thermal anemometer in the middle of a die
[11:56] <Laurenceb> then they connect the pressure inputs to either side
[11:56] <Laurenceb> veyr clever stuff
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> Oh - it's differential - missed that
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> _ideal_ for a pitot
[11:57] <Laurenceb> yeah its perfect
[11:58] <Laurenceb> atm i have 13pa rms noise at 15hz sampling
[11:58] <Laurenceb> ideally need <1pa
[11:58] <Laurenceb> in theory the adc should easily be capable
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[12:06] <Laurenceb> i could swap the 24pc sensor for a 24pc and trade temperature stability for three times the sensitivity and half the price
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[12:07] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/displayProduct.jsp?sku=1225330&CMP=KNC-GUK-FUK-GEN-SKU-DGA&s_kwcid=TC|13123|24pc01smt||S|p|8220813909
[12:07] <Laurenceb> ^almost a reasonable price
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> Not horrible, no.
[12:09] <Laurenceb> sensortechnics have some nice i2c sensors but 47euros and they cant be shut down
[12:09] <Laurenceb> constant 10ma current draw is something i want to avoid
[12:11] <Laurenceb> i guess diff pressure sensors arent a mass market item so you pay for the low volume
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> Additional transistors are bad.
[12:12] <Darkside> Laurenceb: can't be shut down?
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[12:12] <Darkside> fet in series?
[12:12] <Laurenceb> then its got power on the i2c still
[12:12] <Laurenceb> id have to shut down the entire bus.. itd be a moderate pita
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[12:31] <Laurenceb> wtf @ 'self defence' laws
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> ?
[12:31] <Laurenceb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13957587
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> The silly part is it's not something that requires legislation at fucking tall.
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> The existing laws say reasonable.
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> All that's needed is some guidance to the CPS.
[12:33] <Laurenceb> exactly
[12:33] <Laurenceb> hes just giving justification to nutcases
[12:33] <Laurenceb> idiot
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> Police get told several times 'no fucking way' - clearly - for justifiable cases, and they will soon stop bothering htem.
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[13:27] <mixio> Hi people
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[13:33] <Dan-K2VOL> hi mixio
[13:35] <mixio> hey Dan-K2VOL
[13:35] <mixio> Dan-K2VOL: have you ever flight a hab?
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[13:46] <mixio> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/how_to_delete_your_facebook_account.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+readwriteweb+%28ReadWriteWeb%29
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[13:47] <mixio> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN4QRwHCOXQ&feature=player_embedded
[13:47] <mixio> Rocket triggered thunders:)
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[14:19] <fsphil> man, my accent and talking to germans doesn't mix
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Do you have a strong irish accent?
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Some are quite impenetrable.
[14:21] <fsphil> the n.irish accent is fairly different, a bit harsher maybe
[14:21] <Laurenceb> hmm i might have a solution to pitot - http://www.sensortechnics.com/index.php?fid=300&fpar=YToxOntzOjQ6InBjaWQiO3M6MzoiMjkwIjt9&isSSL=0&aps=0&blub=9df48653fd5e55db0e3bd15b178fc453
[14:21] <fsphil> I've met a few people from dubin - couldn't understand a word they said :)
[14:21] <Laurenceb> hacked onto the existing adc - its an order of may more sensitive
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[14:23] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Price isn't _too_ bad.
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[14:23] <Laurenceb> yeah its all rather annoying... not sure what to do for v2 board
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> Got any sensors spare you could put in a little box with ultrasmooth power, to see if that's the issue?
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> and an opamp to buffer it up to 10* the volts?
[14:25] <Laurenceb> no - they are that pricey i just got one
[14:25] <Laurenceb> but thatd be sensible
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[14:34] <Zuph> ping Dan-K2VOL
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[14:35] <Dan-K2VOL> hey zuph
[14:35] <Zuph> See the report on the conductive ink?
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[14:40] <Dan-K2VOL> I saw paul's post, was that it
[14:40] <Zuph> Downloaded the paper: Conductivity of ink-pen trace is comperable to copper trace of same width.
[14:41] <Zuph> One of their test applications was printable antennas.
[14:41] <fsphil> cute idea
[14:43] <Dan-K2VOL> oh ho ho, really
[14:43] <Dan-K2VOL> perhaps we could draw our HF antenna ON THE BALLOON :-P
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[14:49] <fsphil> need to change the swr - get the pen out
[14:49] <fsphil> or the rubber
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[14:52] <SpeedEvil> What conductive ink?
[14:52] <SpeedEvil> I've never seen a comparable one
[14:53] <Zuph> New Research, just released in Materials Science journal: DOI: 10.1002/adma.201101328
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[14:53] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[14:53] <SpeedEvil> Made of what?
[14:53] <Zuph> Flows through roller ball pen, resistivity on the order of 9x10^-4 ohms-cm when cured at 25c
[14:53] <fsphil> wonder if it would work in an inkjet printer
[14:53] <fsphil> print the PCB
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[14:54] <fsphil> directly
[14:54] <Zuph> Silvir precipitate in binder solution.
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> Silver price is at pretty much an alltime high
[14:54] <SpeedEvil> which is annoying
[14:55] <SpeedEvil> I wish Ir/Pt/Au/Ag were just priced for 'proper' uses
[14:56] <Zuph> Doesn't take a lot. Ink is between 10% and 65% silver by weight. The ink they used for testing was 35%. They used superglue and the 64% stuff to bond components to the "traces"
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[14:57] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm quite interesting
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[15:28] <SpeedEvil> Does the paper go into longterm performance?
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[15:29] <SpeedEvil> I'd be concerned about atmospheric corrosion
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[16:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Jon Sowman "Re: [UKHAS] UKHAS Conference 2011"
[16:15] <kristianpaul> this is odd
[16:15] <kristianpaul> suposelly osgpsby defalt dont read samples compressed as a pack of 4 inside a byte
[16:16] <kristianpaul> from my sampled data as it is, i ran osgps and i got some tresholds to be triggered
[16:16] <kristianpaul> afaik not C/A
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[16:16] <kristianpaul> but if iuse the compressed parameter i dont get nothing..
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[16:17] <kristianpaul> oh, boy i need read more..
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[17:37] <danielsaul> Hiya - where do most people get their helium from now? We're hoping to do another APEX launch soon but now that we can no longer use CUSF helium, we're a little stuck and penniless
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[17:37] <BrainDamage> diy fusion reactors
[17:38] <danielsaul> Great idea :P
[17:40] <BrainDamage> jokes aside, just hang for a bit, there's usually a decent amount of people that do HAB regularry
[17:40] <danielsaul> Yeah - some how Ive been landed with the job of getting helium... :S - jonsowman has gone off on holiday and we're stuck, hehe
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[17:57] <fsphil> danielsaul, directly from BOC mostly
[17:57] <danielsaul> Yep, thats what I thought - have just phoned them actually...
[17:57] <fsphil> though better if you get it via someone else who does business with BOC if you know then, as they often get a discount
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[17:57] <fsphil> them*
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[17:59] <danielsaul> Yeah - really annoying that we cant use CUSFs anymore - especially as we were planning on paying this time :(
[17:59] <danielsaul> Anyway, g2g - Im sure we'll work something out
[18:00] <fsphil> good luck!
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[18:33] <RocketBoy> Just a HEADS UP
[18:33] <RocketBoy> There is a flight out of EARS tomorrow morning about 11:00
[18:33] <Dan-K2VOL1> cool
[18:33] <RocketBoy> It be on 434.075MHz  XABEN format
[18:33] <RocketBoy> So anyone that can track will be most welcome
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[18:59] <Upu> hey RocketBoy I should be online
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[19:05] <RocketBoy> cheers Upu
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[19:05] <Upu> try go early I have hospital @ 1pm :)
[19:07] <fsphil> ooh must leave radio on
[19:07] <RocketBoy> its possible we might be launched by 10:30 - but 11:00 is more liklely
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[19:09] <RocketBoy> BBS
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[20:24] <jcoxon> evening all
[20:25] <SpeedEvil> Evening!
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[20:46] <Upu> evening
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> Evening.
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> hmm 220nf mlcc decoupling caps + lowered bandwidth and auto bias removal on the adc gets me to 6.3pa rms error
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> You were at ~10?
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> it looks guassian now as well
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> 13.1
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> Not bad.
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> You still want another factor of 5 ifdeally?
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:51] <Laurenceb_> which is tricky
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[20:52] <Laurenceb_> 24pc01 pressure sensor would get me to 2.3
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[20:54] <nelly11> Hi all! I can;t make up my mind on whether i want a hole in the equipment housing for the camera or a window. If I have a hole, im worried the lense will get to cold and if I have a window, I think it might steam up because of the temperature difference
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> In practice, cameras seem fine as long as they are operating.
[20:55] <SpeedEvil> I don't think there has been a cold related failure of an operating camera
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> convection basically is turned off at altitude.
[20:56] <nelly11> ok so a hole is fine
[20:56] <nelly11> thanks :)
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> yeah - windows have issues - you basically have to heat them
[20:57] <LazyLeopard> Plenty of photos less good than they might have been because ice formed on a window...
[20:58] <Dan-K2VOL1> I second the "leave a hole for the lens" thing
[20:59] <Dan-K2VOL1> however we've tested a digital video cam here at White Star that stops working at 20C, so do test all your electronics in the cold before flying
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> i guess 2.3Pa is only about 0.26m/s error at 7m/s cruise speed
[21:00] <Laurenceb_> so okayish
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> What's the error freq?
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> I mean - how does the distribution look
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> I suppose if you want to track gusts - ...
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> it looks pretty much like white noise
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> low pass is at ~3.5hz on the adc
[21:02] <Laurenceb_> so yeah ill track wind and use the imu velocity to find actual airspeed
[21:02] <SpeedEvil> Are you ever wanting to fly that close to stall?
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[21:03] <SpeedEvil> I mean - if you're caring about the noise of .26m/s being important, then you can fall out of the sky with a .26m/s gust
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> no, but if the wind is significant compared to cruise speed things get bad
[21:03] <Laurenceb_> if you approximate wind=0
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> i want a decentish wind vector estaime
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> as its useful for all kind of stuff
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[21:05] <Laurenceb_> for setting heading target, and working out true airspeed
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> as opposed to groundspeed
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> Hmm
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> I suppose if you're doing screwy stuff like trying to work out the wind vector from microturns, then it will hamper this, yes.
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[21:27] <Laurenceb_> https://github.com/Laurenceb/Dactyl/raw/master/Archived/Test_data/pitot-pascals.png
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[21:30] <Laurenceb_> wtf google
[21:30] <Laurenceb_> thats about the third massive redesign today
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> seems to be getting more bloated by the minute
[21:31] <fsphil> I noticed the top banner went negative a few days ago - quite like it
[21:32] <fsphil> wish I could turn off the 'click for a preview' thing though
[21:32] <Laurenceb_> google used to be nice as it was simple and clean
[21:32] <fsphil> yea, logo box and button
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> they seem to have intruduced a grey microsofty side menu just now
[21:33] <fsphil> not seeing that
[21:33] <fsphil> in the search results?
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> hmm only works with firefox menu bar search
[21:38] Action: SpeedEvil sighs at finding new cool chips.
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/cc2540.html#pricingpackaging
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> mini bluetooth thingy
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> im off, cya all
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> WAve!
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> Have fun.
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[21:52] <kristianpaul> SpeedEvil: cool chips, google for atben/atubs ;)
[21:52] <kristianpaul> atusb*
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> kristianpaul: yes, I kow of it.
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> However - those are basically useless for 'normal' users - on their own.
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> Chips that can 'just work' with existing hw are nicer, for obvious reasons.
[21:54] <kristianpaul> indeed
[21:54] <kristianpaul> but you are not a normall user ;)
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> No.
[21:54] <kristianpaul> or most of people here i bet xD
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> But I want to sell stuff to them.
[21:55] <kristianpaul> oh
[21:55] <kristianpaul> sure
[21:55] <kristianpaul> i _understand_
[21:55] <kristianpaul> is not turnkey, yet :)
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[22:42] <mixio> hi
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[23:35] <griffonbot> Received email: Earthshine Electronics "[UKHAS] Re: UKHAS Conference 2011"
[23:37] <griffonbot> Received email: Adam Greig "Re: [UKHAS] Re: UKHAS Conference 2011"
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[00:00] --- Thu Jun 30 2011