highaltitude.log.20110624

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[00:14] <Lunar_Lander> jonsowman how are you?
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[01:17] Action: SpeedEvil wonders how to get a small quantity of dry gas constantly.
[01:17] <Lunar_Lander> a nitrogen boil off
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> yeah - for that I'd need a dewar.
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> Which would be cool.
[01:20] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[01:21] <SpeedEvil> I think maybe a litre a day or so.
[01:21] <SpeedEvil> Which is an annoying quantity.
[01:22] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[01:22] <Lunar_Lander> what do you need it for?
[01:22] <SpeedEvil> It's to purge a solar panel of water vapour leaking in.
[01:24] <SpeedEvil> I'm wondering about a design of solar panel that would cost 40p/kW
[01:24] <SpeedEvil> 40p/W@1kW
[01:25] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[01:25] <Lunar_Lander> sounds good
[01:26] <SpeedEvil> And quite a lot of work though.
[01:26] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[01:26] <Lunar_Lander> like any &D
[01:26] <Lunar_Lander> R&D
[01:27] <SpeedEvil> Not really R&D - more jigsaw.
[01:27] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200621341284&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT forex
[01:28] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok
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[01:29] <Lunar_Lander2> reconnect complete
[01:29] <SpeedEvil> :)
[01:29] <Lunar_Lander2> :)
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[01:34] <Lunar_Lander2> lol
[01:34] <Lunar_Lander2> Robot Wars is so great
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[05:44] <griffonbot> @jgrahamc: RT @cuspaceflight: Nova 19 / Weasel set a new UK altitude record today at 36.206km! #cusf [http://twitter.com/jgrahamc/status/84134656508821504]
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[07:54] Action: Laurenceb_ was looking at beating the arhab altitude record
[07:55] <Laurenceb_> looks possible with a very thin zero pressure
[07:55] <Laurenceb_> using some of the thin film the indoor plane people use
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[08:18] <cuddykid> morning all
[08:18] <cuddykid> received an email from the one and only david miller last night saying he will endeavour to get my clearance sorted today :D hope so!
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[08:23] <SamSilver> cuddykid: sounds like you hungry for launch ;-)
[08:24] <cuddykid> indeed!
[08:24] <cuddykid> been 2 years waiting haha
[08:24] <cuddykid> however, I'm not yet equipped with a HABers favourite tool - the chainsaw
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[08:32] <SamSilver> cuddykid: I was thinking of getting a pet monkey
[08:33] <cuddykid> sounds a great idea!
[08:34] <cuddykid> ooo.. should be able to start getting way off (inaccurate) predictions now for 1st july
[08:35] <SamSilver> I wish you well for 01 july
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[08:35] <SamSilver> my your landing be on solid earth
[08:35] <SamSilver> nothing wet and nothing tall
[08:36] <SamSilver> *may
[08:36] <cuddykid> haha thanks
[08:37] <SamSilver> afk
[08:37] <cuddykid> hmm currently looks to be in SE direction... notam will probably say no to that. Last time it was W/SW
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[08:51] <jgrahamc> We need to start making a quadcopter with a live video stream and a pair of shears part of the HAB kit so we can cut out of trees
[08:52] <mattltm> lol. Good plan :)
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[09:05] <cuddykid> or a quad copter with some sort of winch thing that attaches onto payload (maybe magnetic) to hoist it out lol
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[09:36] <mixio> nichrome is what you use for the cutdown mechanisms?
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[09:45] <m1x10> ping fsphil
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[09:50] <m1x10> how much gauge is that nichrome wire you use on cutdown mechanisms?
[09:52] <m1x10> hello !
[09:53] <griffonbot> Received email: Solar Balloonman "[UKHAS] Re: Could this take peroxide? Re: 'Solar Pillow'"
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[10:33] <cuddykid> oops almost fried my lassen
[10:33] <cuddykid> not what I want to happen when I'm close to launch
[10:33] <cuddykid> plugged connector in wrong way.. rookie error
[10:34] <cuddykid> m1x10 - I think they use nichrom
[10:35] <cuddykid> certainly gets ridiculously hot just off a few batteries
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[10:41] <griffonbot> Received email: "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Could this take peroxide? Re: 'Solar Pillow'"
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[10:49] <Laurenceb> hmm you could beat the altitude record with a 1m zero pressure envelope made from OS film
[10:49] <Laurenceb> if the electronics could be made <10grams
[10:52] <Laurenceb> http://www.a2zcorp.us/store/Category.asp?Cguid={CCCB3CBA-6763-499A-8223-DDDBACB0C380}&Category=BuildingMaterials%3ACovering
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[10:59] <fsphil> pong m1x10 (at work, will be slow :)
[11:09] <cuddykid> anyone know where to buy nichrome wire (apart from internet)?
[11:12] <Laurenceb> cuddykid: i use 0.125W 10 ohm resistors
[11:13] <cuddykid> is nichrome the best for making hot wire cutter?
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[11:15] <SamSilver> food packaging shops will sell it
[11:15] <SamSilver> they use nichrome wire for the plastic wrap machines
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[11:17] <SamSilver> when you buy meat on a polystyrene plate and it covered in a plastic film, they have used a nichrome wire cutter to cut the film
[11:17] <mixio> hi fsphil, i was wondering where to buy the nichrome wire? ebay... ?
[11:17] <fsphil> I got mine from Rapid Online
[11:18] <cuddykid> thanks SamSilver
[11:18] <fsphil> got for cutting the payload box, rather than a cut-down device
[11:18] <cuddykid> just noticed that maplin sell 28swg constantan wire - will that also provide desired hot wire effect?
[11:19] <mixio> Btw, i just found that radiometrix has the TX1 10mw running at 3v3 ! That could make my pcb even smaller and simpler. But i dont have more crystals!
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[11:20] <fsphil> all their 10mw modules work at 3.3v
[11:20] <fsphil> afaik
[11:21] <Darkside> i'd be more inclined to feed the radiometrix module the raw battery voltage
[11:21] <Darkside> else you'll be dissipating more heat in your 3.3v regulator, when the radiometrix module could dissipate it instead - it can handle 15v input fine
[11:22] <fsphil> good idea
[11:22] <hibby> will the frequency output by the radiometrix module not change with input voltage?
[11:22] <Darkside> no
[11:22] <Darkside> it has an internal regulator, regulates to 2.8v i believe
[11:22] <fsphil> indeed
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[11:22] <Darkside> and if the NTX2 dissipates heat, thats probably a good thing in regards to frequency stability
[11:22] <fsphil> though the temperature will vary due to the voltage changes, and this will change the frequency
[11:23] <Darkside> it could self-heat iself :-)
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[11:23] <Darkside> less drift as it gets colder
[11:24] <SamSilver> less drift as it does not get colder - I get your drift Dark
[11:25] <Darkside> it might work
[11:25] <Darkside> i've got my mininut boards wired up that way
[11:25] <Darkside> we'll see what happens when they fly
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[11:36] <mixio> what happened to nova19 ?
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[11:41] <fsphil> landed in a tree
[11:47] <fsphil> evil trees
[11:48] <cuddykid> 3 big sheets of styrofoam have just arrived :D
[11:48] <cuddykid> need to build a hot wire cutter now
[11:49] <BrainDamage> wrap your soldering iron with aluminium foil to not ruin the tip
[11:49] <BrainDamage> and you got your hot cutter
[11:52] <cuddykid> ooo.. will that work well?!
[11:53] <BrainDamage> I don't see why not, I used the same trick to cut some plastic sheets, make sure only that the foil is tightly wrapped
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[11:54] <Darkside> mmm
[11:54] <Darkside> for foam you want a thin cutter
[11:54] <Darkside> a soldering iron won't work so well
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[11:54] <Darkside> you want a very clean edge
[11:55] <Darkside> best way is to use some nichrome wire, about 30cm or so, and put 12v or so across it
[11:55] <cuddykid> Darkside: can an old power supply be used for the 12V (from mains)
[11:56] <Laurenceb> careful of the fumes
[11:56] <Darkside> depends ont eh current draw i guess
[11:56] <BrainDamage> the power supply needs to be able to deliver few A
[11:56] <Darkside> less wire length, more current draw, and higher chance of burning out the wire
[11:56] <Darkside> you don't want it red hot
[11:57] <BrainDamage> you don't even need rectification, a plain transformer is sufficent
[11:57] <cuddykid> ok, will see what's lying around
[11:57] <Darkside> trying to find a picture of the cutter i use
[11:57] <cuddykid> are the fumes toxic? guess they're not healthy!
[11:58] <Darkside> hm, never had to deal with fumes
[11:58] <Darkside> i dont think the cutter i used got hot enough to burn the foam, just melt it
[11:59] <Laurenceb> they cause cancer in california, if you know what i mean
[11:59] <cuddykid> I get you laurenceb ;) !
[11:59] <jonsowman> so does everything
[12:00] <cuddykid> an alternative option may just be using a saw to get rough shape then sanding?
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[12:01] <fsphil> I used a saw - but it's very difficult to make a perfectly straight cut
[12:01] <fsphil> my payload box wasn't really a box
[12:01] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[12:01] <fsphil> though maybe that's just me :)
[12:02] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jonsowman!jonsowman@kryten.hexoc.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk
[12:02] #highaltitude: mode change '-o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[12:02] <fsphil> I'm not good at making things
[12:02] <Darkside> using a hot wire really is the best option
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[12:03] <fsphil> indeedy
[12:03] <fsphil> but it involves making the cutter :)
[12:03] <Darkside> worth it tho
[12:03] <Darkside> very useful to have a hot-wire cutter
[12:03] <Darkside> cant find the damn pic...
[12:04] <Darkside> i had a good pic of the cutter in operation somewhere..
[12:04] <cuddykid> don't worry darkside :)
[12:04] <cuddykid> upu's pic is great - http://ava.upuaut.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/IMG_4820.jpg
[12:05] <Darkside> yep thats a good way of doing it
[12:05] <Darkside> we had nichrome wire streched between the ends of a bent piece ov PVC pipe
[12:05] <Darkside> pf*
[12:05] <Darkside> of*
[12:05] <Darkside> so we moved the cutter, not the foam
[12:05] <Darkside> but upu's cutter would work really well too
[12:06] <Darkside> interesitng blue foam
[12:07] <fsphil> jcoxon shohuld add his nano payload here: http://www.arhab.org/records/records/records/lpayload.html
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[12:10] <Darkside> man, 89 grams
[12:10] <Darkside> thats nute
[12:10] <Darkside> nuts*
[12:10] <Darkside> what did it have in it tho
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[12:21] <fsphil> prolly just gps, battery and transmitter
[12:21] <Darkside> mm
[12:21] <fsphil> something like that would be good with a little uart camera
[12:21] <Darkside> my payload is 35g without batteries...
[12:21] <Darkside> or antenna
[12:22] <Darkside> i'm betting it will be around 150g after boxing
[12:22] <fsphil> use bubblewrap instead of a box?
[12:22] <Darkside> heh
[12:22] <Darkside> im gonna use very lightweight foam for the box
[12:22] <fsphil> hadie was 510g, most of that was the canon camera
[12:22] <Darkside> my main concern is the antenna
[12:22] <Darkside> i'm thinking of just using a wire dipole
[12:23] <fsphil> I think the box was about 100g or so
[12:23] <Darkside> and have the wire running up the payload line
[12:23] <Darkside> radials will mean more reinforcing of the box, and more weight
[12:24] <fsphil> if I get it out of the tree I must weigh the individual bits
[12:24] <fsphil> a wire antenna on the cord would be perfect
[12:24] <Darkside> a dipole should work well enough
[12:24] <Darkside> i mean, it worked on HF >_>
[12:24] <fsphil> one out either side of the payload
[12:24] <Darkside> vertical dipole too
[12:25] <Darkside> problem there will be making a balun for it
[12:25] <Darkside> as 1/4 wave of wire will be anoying to deal with
[12:26] <fsphil> could the transmitter be made to connect directly to a balanced antenna?
[12:26] <Darkside> well the output is unbalanced
[12:27] <Darkside> lengh of the matching 1/4 wave will be 200/(4*144) right?
[12:27] <Darkside> due to 66% c
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[12:27] <Darkside> so about 35cm
[12:27] <Darkside> thats a shitload of wire to have sitting in a payload
[12:27] <Darkside> coax*
[12:29] <Darkside> actually, the other option is to hang a j-pole off it
[12:30] <Darkside> i may as well make a payload with a SMA connector on the outside of it, heh
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[12:36] <fsphil> that conductive thread that sparkfun sell might make a good antenna wire
[12:36] <fsphil> though maybe not at -40c
[12:38] <Upu> Ava is 850g
[12:39] <Darkside> nah
[12:39] <Darkside> maybe not a dipole then
[12:39] <Darkside> matchint is gonna be too hard
[12:39] <Upu> what you after Darkside ?
[12:39] <Darkside> unless i just do the dodgy air-core choke method
[12:39] <Darkside> Upu: lightweight 2m antenna
[12:39] <Upu> ah ok
[12:39] <Darkside> sure, i could use a 1/4 wave monopole with ground plane
[12:39] <Upu> base station one ?
[12:39] <Darkside> nah
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[12:39] <Darkside> for payload
[12:40] <Upu> oh
[12:40] <Darkside> i've donw a 1/4 wave monopole with ground plane radials before
[12:40] <Darkside> but it means a lot of reinforcement is needed, especially with the 50cm ground plane radials
[12:40] <Upu> guy from the club recommended 1/4 wave but use copper tape as the ground plane
[12:40] <Upu> 50cms ?
[12:40] <Darkside> 144MHz
[12:41] <Upu> ah of course yes
[12:41] <Upu> sorry thought you meant 434Mhz
[12:41] <Upu> have fun with that :)
[12:41] <Darkside> we've done it before: http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/DSC_2710.jpg
[12:41] <Darkside> but that payload had a lot of reinforcement inside, and even then it broke on landing
[12:41] <Upu> not sure I'd want that coming down at me
[12:41] <Darkside> yup
[12:41] <Darkside> so i was thinking a vertical dipole
[12:42] <Darkside> but then you need a balun, and the standard 1/4 wave matching stub is going to be heavy
[12:42] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/antenna.jpg
[12:42] <Upu> that was my first stab at 434
[12:42] <Upu> going to be redesigned for next launch
[12:42] <Upu> Copper tape ground plane
[12:42] <Darkside> juxta's 434MHz payload has something similar
[12:43] <Upu> You're not UK based are you ?
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[12:43] <Darkside> nope, australia
[12:43] <Upu> Yeah we don't have this issue as we're not actually allowed to transmit on 2meters in the air
[12:43] <Darkside> i was thinking of making the payload box as small as possible, and just having an SMA connector on the outside of it
[12:43] <Upu> 5/8's ?
[12:44] <Darkside> and have a j-pole antenna hanging down
[12:44] <Upu> I think I'm going to have a light weight frame on Ava2 with insulation on it
[12:44] <Darkside> mm
[12:45] <Darkside> im currently thinking of making a foam box, with some kind of reinforcement for a sma connector on the outside
[12:45] <Darkside> ideally i want the payload to be re-usable
[12:46] <Darkside> all my payloads so far have been damaged beyond repair on landing
[12:46] <mixio> is that bad to use a rechargable 9v li-on battery on space?
[12:47] <Darkside> i dunno how li-ions go at low temps
[12:47] <Darkside> i know lipo's freeze
[12:47] <Upu> Why don't you transmit at 434Mhz Darkside ?
[12:47] <Darkside> Upu: because we want to do some high speed APRS experiments on UHF
[12:47] <Upu> ok
[12:47] <Darkside> 9600 baud APRS
[12:48] <Darkside> and the 2m modules i've got ordered do 100mw :-)
[12:49] <Upu> mixio http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/13702/1/00-0068.pdf
[12:50] <Upu> The Limits of Low-Temperature Performance of Li-Ion Cell
[12:50] <Upu> The results of electrode and electrolyte studies reveal that the poor low-temperature (<-30'C) performance of Li-ion cells is ma... etc
[12:51] <Darkside> anyway, im thinking of using a slim-jim style 2m antenna made from balanced line
[12:51] <fsphil> 9600 baud over fm?
[12:51] <Darkside> fsphil: yeah
[12:51] <Darkside> high output power on the TX probably
[12:51] <Darkside> a few watts
[12:52] <fsphil> does anyone do that already?
[12:52] <Darkside> yep
[12:52] <Darkside> there are high speed UHF APRS networks around the place
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[12:52] <fsphil> I've seen the 9600 option on my radios but I don't actually know what it does
[12:53] <Darkside> we figure if we can get 9600 baud down from a payload, it opens up lots more experiments
[12:54] <fsphil> I could send an image down in 10 seconds :)
[12:54] <Darkside> heh
[12:54] <Darkside> well, thats one idea
[12:55] <fsphil> very low bitrate video
[12:55] <Darkside> but in effect we'd have a flying digipeater
[12:55] <Darkside> so we'd be able to have data links between the chase vehicles
[12:55] <Darkside> and experiment with APRS-based cutdown, etc
[12:55] <fsphil> aah two-way link
[12:55] <Darkside> yep
[12:55] <Darkside> flying digipeater
[12:56] <Darkside> running our own APRS network
[12:56] <fsphil> you could transmit fairly good digital voice over 9600 baud
[12:56] <Darkside> its packet based tho
[12:56] <fsphil> true
[12:56] <fsphil> actual rate and latency would be pretty bad
[12:56] <Darkside> yeah
[12:56] <Darkside> but man, you could do some cool stuff via it
[12:57] <Darkside> i'd have a local tap into the APRS packet stream, on the payload
[12:57] <BrainDamage> Darkside: but in effect we'd have a flying digipeater <- I read that as flying diapers, was disappointed after re-reading :(
[12:57] <Darkside> so you could wire up other payloads to it, and have them send packets down, for images, etc
[12:58] <fsphil> that could be arranged BrainDamage
[12:58] <BrainDamage> moisture protection for the electronics? :p
[12:58] <Darkside> BrainDamage: send $450 + diapers, and we'll fly them, and retrieve them
[12:58] <Darkside> wait, make that $600, just to be safe
[12:58] <Darkside> >_>
[12:59] <BrainDamage> yeah, no
[12:59] <Darkside> aww
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[13:39] <ruku> Anyone here an analog guru?
[13:40] Action: SpeedEvil wishes people would just ask questions.
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> Or wander over to ##electronics.
[13:41] <BrainDamage> pointless questions are irritating just as much there tought
[13:42] <Dan-K2VOL> ruku sorry, doesn't seem like it
[13:43] <Dan-K2VOL> so if you type jeri ellsworth into google, the first suggested search made me lol
[13:43] <ruku> I'm not as interested as getting my question answered as meeting people...
[13:43] <ruku> IRC channels aren't just for Q and A right? >_>;
[13:44] <fsphil> so true
[13:44] <ruku> I mean I could just say... what happens if I run my op amp off of a 5 V and 5.25 V supply, will that cause a ground voltage (0 V) through a unity gain amp to drift?
[13:44] <ruku> (ie: 0.25 or something...)
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> Part of the probelm is - your question is meaningless (the initial one)
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> Do you for example consider a guru someone who knows ohms law?
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> Or are you looking for detailed discussion of shot-noise in transistors, and its relation to transistor geometry.
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> ruku: It depends on how the circuit is set up.
[13:45] <ruku> How so Speed?
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> In general - opamps totally ignore the supply rail voltage - with the caveats that the inputs or outputs may not work quite up to them.
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> They depend on the input voltages, and the reference voltages of the circuit.
[13:46] <ruku> That being, rail to rail amp or not?
[13:46] <SpeedEvil> yes
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[13:46] <SpeedEvil> The reference voltages may or may not be altered by changes in vcc
[13:46] <ruku> What would be the statistic that describes how non-equal supply voltages affect operation?
[13:47] <SpeedEvil> They almost don't.
[13:47] <SpeedEvil> For a rail-rail opampp
[13:47] <SpeedEvil> The only difference is that the output current varies near the supply rails, and possibly with supply voltage too.
[13:48] <ruku> I remember a 741 acting funny on me... (granted, it was a 741...) I had it set up 5V and ground, and it wouldn't unity buffer a signal.
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> But in the ideal case, where feedback is applied and the circuit is properly designed, that does not matter, as you're always below that limit
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> 741 is not rail-rail
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> It will not work with the inputs within 3v(?) of the positive rail.
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> Maybe it's 2
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[13:48] <ruku> Ah. So if perhaps I was using 15 and 0, I'd be ok for anything 3 to 12?
[13:49] <ruku> Theoretically...
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> yes
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> Or 0-9
[13:49] <ruku> Hmm.
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> http://www.national.com/mpf/LM/LM741.html#Overview
[13:50] <ruku> The reason I'm asking is I'm using a Murata DC/DC to take 3.3 Lithiums to +/- 5 to do some signal work.
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> Look at the datasheet
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> Page 2 - bottom.
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> 'input voltage range'
[13:50] <ruku> You mean you won't look at it for me? ;~;
[13:50] Action: ruku kids. <3
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> This is specified at +-15V - the worst-case input range is specified as +-12 - that is 3V from the supply rails
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> There are nicer ones with graphs though
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> LM358 - say
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> http://www.national.com/profile/snip.cgi/openDS=LM358
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> Bottom of page 3, and note 7 on page 5
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> Input range is from V- to V+ - 1.5V
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> And it's got a graph on page 5 of input voltage range vs supply voltage
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[13:58] <Laurenceb> Dan-K2VOL: lmao
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[13:59] <Dan-K2VOL> Laurenceb :-P
[13:59] Action: SpeedEvil has IR sensor.
[13:59] <Laurenceb> google needs an anti nerd mode
[13:59] <Laurenceb> "no your not going to get laid"
[14:00] <Laurenceb> if you hit that result
[14:00] <Dan-K2VOL> hahahha
[14:02] <Laurenceb> "google has detected you are a basement dwelling loser"
[14:09] <Dan-K2VOL> so has any of you guys ever seen a Focused Ion Beam milling and depositing metals?
[14:09] <Dan-K2VOL> it's pretty darn fantastic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MUOj7-n8po&feature=player_embedded
[14:10] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm trying to get one for work
[14:17] <Hiena> Heh...
[14:19] <Hiena> I'm knee deep in the failed charcoal fuel experiment. But the results promising. Better feeder and high voltage gas chamber will make it better.
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[14:25] <BrainDamage> mmmm?
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[14:45] <Laurenceb> http://spacefellowship.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=12087&sid=929a19f0b81a6c1d842acb783ba3891d
[14:45] <Laurenceb> never saw that happening
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[14:52] <griffonbot> Received email: Oliver de Peyer Astrobiologist "[UKHAS] Strange satellite modem certification? Comparison with GlobalStar?"
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[14:54] <Dan-K2VOL> Laurenceb interesting
[14:55] <griffonbot> Received email: Oliver de Peyer Astrobiologist "[UKHAS] Insurance"
[15:03] <Dan-K2VOL> anyone in here operate a business?
[15:06] <Upu> yeah
[15:06] <Upu> I own my own business
[15:13] <futurity> I operate a business as well
[15:13] <futurity> a small business though
[15:17] <Laurenceb> http://spacefellowship.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=8610&sid=929a19f0b81a6c1d842acb783ba3891d&start=45
[15:17] <Laurenceb> what are these guys smoking
[15:18] <Hiena> Rocket fuel?
[15:18] <Laurenceb> 100kft quadcopter wtf
[15:20] <Laurenceb> something slightly less insane: i was just looking at the numbers for a 42Km zero pressure balloon- you could do it with a 1m radius envelope made from OS film - rc plane covering
[15:20] <Hiena> Never read Daniken?
[15:20] <Laurenceb> easish way to take the arhab altitude record
[15:20] <Laurenceb> Hiena: no
[15:21] <Hiena> He wrote Biblical multirotor spacefaring helicopter.
[15:21] <Laurenceb> oh dear
[15:22] <Hiena> http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html
[15:23] Action: Laurenceb facepalm
[15:24] <Dan-K2VOL> 42km zp? 1m I assume you mean 1 mile radius
[15:24] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[15:24] <Hiena> Okay. Seems, all set for the onboard test the charcoal fuel system, except i have no car avail. Guess untill that i'll prepare a water cooled feeder.
[15:25] <Laurenceb> Dan-K2VOl: no 1m
[15:25] <Laurenceb> OS film is 0.5um thick
[15:25] <Laurenceb> easily doable, but you need a tracking package thats <10grams
[15:25] <Laurenceb> thats the tricky bit... unless you make the envelope larger
[15:26] <Laurenceb> CUSF made a ~2.5m radius or something balloon by hand
[15:26] <Laurenceb> but that amount of OS film would start to get expensive
[15:26] <Laurenceb> and itd be easy to rip everything
[15:28] <Dan-K2VOL> Ugh
[15:29] <Laurenceb> yeah its not trivial - cusf were looking at tubes
[15:30] <Laurenceb> but it _could_ be done on a tabletop
[15:32] <Dan-K2VOL> from what we've seen with the zps, when they get small it seems that the open vent hole is a problem
[15:33] <Dan-K2VOL> I think we're going to change to a spring-disc vent like the japanese used on their trans-pacific ones
[15:33] <Laurenceb> so you make it smaller
[15:33] <Laurenceb> interesting
[15:33] <Dan-K2VOL> making it smaller just resulted in envelope rupture in the UTARC/SNOX test flights
[15:33] <Laurenceb> i see
[15:34] <Laurenceb> well aiming for altitude is a slightly different problem
[15:34] <Dan-K2VOL> We theorized that gusts of wind/turbulence cause a 'breathing' action of the balloon that's not significant on a large zp
[15:34] <Dan-K2VOL> But loses a lot of helium on a small one - considering the helium and air homogeneously mix in the envelope when air is introduced
[15:35] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:35] <Laurenceb> maybe less of a problem for an altitude attempt
[15:36] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about simple optical tracking.
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> Launch on a clear night, and ahve a LED strobe.
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> Follow with scopes.
[15:37] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:37] <Laurenceb> less accurate maybe
[15:37] <Dan-K2VOL> Why would you bother to use a small zp for an altitude attempt? Seems a lot more work than latex
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> Not that much
[15:37] <Laurenceb> but gps is heavy
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> Against the background of stars
[15:37] <Laurenceb> hard to do gps for <10 grams
[15:37] <fsphil> fsa03 is 10g
[15:37] <Laurenceb> but you need power and radio as well
[15:37] <Laurenceb> still i guess 20g is possible
[15:37] <Dan-K2VOL> Oh just get Jodrell bank involved
[15:38] <Laurenceb> and thatd still make the envelope tabletop sized
[15:38] <fsphil> aye true, but you could trim down an ntx2 so it weighs less
[15:38] <Laurenceb> 42km is 3g/m^3
[15:38] <fsphil> solder directly to pins on avr so no pcb needed
[15:38] <Dan-K2VOL> those are nice weights for superpressure envelopes too
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Magnitude 4 star is 0.9nW/m^2 - a 1W pulse from a LED over a hemisphere is that bright over a billion square meters - or 12km range
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> And mag 4 is quite bright
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> Easily naked eye
[15:39] <fsphil> depends where you live
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> True.
[15:39] <Laurenceb> so you need ~1.5m radius balloon for 20 gram payload
[15:39] <Laurenceb> to 42km with os film
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> Naked eye in a just stepped out of a dimly lit room - not very dark adapted
[15:39] <fsphil> though if you're using this for tracking I'd guess you'd already have a dark site arranged
[15:40] <fsphil> have the led transmit the coordinates
[15:40] <fsphil> and altitude
[15:40] <Dan-K2VOL> that's how they used to do weather ballons - just triangulate it's position using multiple telescopes
[15:40] <Dan-K2VOL> No need for anything by a light
[15:40] <fsphil> though a 1W LED is going to be a similar weight to an ntx2
[15:40] <Dan-K2VOL> But
[15:41] <Dan-K2VOL> Would be neat to develop telescope control software that kept 3 telescopes at far distances locked on to the colored LED and fed the angles together online to produce the position and altitude live on spacenear.us
[15:42] <fsphil> that would be a neat trick
[15:42] <fsphil> optical direction finding
[15:42] <Dan-K2VOL> Could easily practice using airplanes
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[15:57] <fsphil> the tracker would benefit from some kind of DF entry system anyway
[15:59] <cuddykid> arghhh, David Miller told me he was going to get my permission sorted today, and still nothing!
[16:02] <fsphil> I've gotten emails from him later than this
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[16:24] <cuddykid> there is still hope then!
[16:24] <cuddykid> ordered some nichrome wire off ebay earlier for a hot wire cutter
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[16:26] <SamSilver> bbl
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[17:04] <fsphil> I never got around to using the nichrome wire, it looks like fun stuff
[17:04] <fsphil> very thin
[17:06] <cuddykid> yeah, £2 off ebay for 4m :)
[17:18] <fsphil> sweet! much better deal than I got
[17:21] <Hiena> Heh... For cutting, i use 0.8 mm diameter steel welding wire. Cheaper, and much easier to obtain than the NiCr wire.
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> yeah - me too
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> though I used galvanised wire from an armoured cable
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[17:25] <Hiena> For a long, precision cuttings used a stainless steel wire from steel cable which used for the hang-gliders.
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> I've been meaning to try - for _really_ fine work - carbon fibre
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> I suspect it's not going to work at all though
[17:26] <Hiena> An emergency case, i used cheese cutter for such purpose.
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[19:18] <Laurenceb_> freaking kalman filters, hod do they work?
[19:19] <gb73d> mucking about with electrons
[19:20] <Zuph> I had a professor who explained Kalman filters about as well as anyone could. Of course, I didn't write down his explaination, and ended up drinking it away in a vain attempt to ease the pain of engineering school,.
[19:22] <Hiena> Zuph: It's called zen engineering, you should be in higher mind state to understand it and the alcohol helps a little bit. ;)
[19:23] <Zuph> Ah, but too little or too much alcohol, and it's all for naught. See related: Balmer Peak.
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[19:23] Nick change: mattltm_alt -> mattltm
[19:28] <BrainDamage> the course that was supposed to explain me kalman filters ended and it ran out of time, so it skipped them :(
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[19:41] <griffonbot> Received email: Dan Bowen "Re: [UKHAS] Strange satellite modem certification? Comparison with GlobalStar?"
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[19:49] <stilldavid> Dan-K2VOL: quadrifilar helicoidal is my phrase of the day
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[19:50] <Dan-K2VOL> Hehe stilldavid it definitely sounds like it belongs in the bowels of the Enterprise
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[19:56] <Zuph> It looks like it belongs in the bowels of the Enterprise.
[19:56] <Zuph> How's it going stilldavid ?
[19:57] <Dan-K2VOL> ha
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[19:59] <stilldavid> hiya Zuph
[20:00] <stilldavid> busy :) not much time for balloons recently, unfortunately
[20:00] <Zuph> Heh, I hear ya!
[20:01] <Zuph> Anything fun?
[20:01] <stilldavid> well, I'm going here next week: http://eyeofestival.com/
[20:01] <stilldavid> pretty excited about that :)
[20:01] <stilldavid> then Hawaii for the three weeks following
[20:02] <Zuph> Eyeo looks really neat.
[20:03] <stilldavid> yeah, it's gonna be rad. We're giving a 2.5hr presentation, then we just get to attend after that :)
[20:03] <Zuph> Sweet!
[20:04] <stilldavid> and... Minneapolis!
[20:06] <Zuph> Heh, neat city?
[20:08] <stilldavid> I'll let you know :)
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[22:20] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "[UKHAS] Strange satellite modem certification? Comparison with GlobalStar?"
[22:21] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "Re: [UKHAS] Insurance"
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[00:00] --- Sat Jun 25 2011