highaltitude.log.20110622

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[06:01] <kristianpaul> Laurenceb: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/GPS_Free_Stack, take your time, resuming dint get carrier phase to be tracked, for now osgps is my only tool for off-line processing
[06:02] <kristianpaul> Laurenceb: may be you can give me a hand with octave? i already have data samples but a bit compresed, i think i can bloat it, i made tool, but not sure if it work or not
[06:03] <kristianpaul> as i said before, i'm dumb with octave/matlab etc..
[06:04] <kristianpaul> i'll focus in namuru core know, i told you before about it, so this will real time, rather than take 17Mb samples at the time..
[06:05] <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: you be aware Laurenceb is working with a Ublox module, fsa03 and a smt32 kit?, well the code is public too https://github.com/Laurenceb/Dactyl
[06:06] <kristianpaul> data is navigation, but still interesting compared to other closed sources receivers..
[06:07] <kristianpaul> and of course different from the copyleft hw work aorund #milkymist
[06:07] <kristianpaul> but anyway, just introducing people..
[06:07] <kristianpaul> i'm off, gn8
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[06:58] <griffonbot> @jamescoxon: Really good guide to setting up a NTX2 radio transmitter http://t.co/2S5SOcQ #ukhas - thanks M6UPU! [http://twitter.com/jamescoxon/status/83428563105230848]
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[07:54] <griffonbot> @jgrahamc: RT @jamescoxon: Really good guide to setting up a NTX2 radio transmitter http://t.co/2S5SOcQ #ukhas - thanks M6UPU! [http://twitter.com/jgrahamc/status/83442625033674753]
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[08:22] <Upu> Ooo I was linked :)
[08:22] <Upu> welcome !
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[08:29] <mattltm> Ello!
[08:29] <Upu> morning mattltm
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[08:31] <mattltm> Hey Upu :)
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[08:51] <fsphil> haha
[08:51] <fsphil> you're famous now
[08:52] <Upu> yeah I only got Twitter yesterday :)
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[09:34] <Laurenceb> what for?
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[12:37] <Upu> ukhas.org.uk down ?
[12:37] <Upu> no ignore me
[12:37] <mattltm> ok.
[12:38] <Upu> odd works from home not from work
[12:41] <cuddykid> macbook car charger arrived this morning :)
[12:41] <cuddykid> just need CAA clearance now, hurry up David!
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[12:44] <fsphil> good luck with that :)
[12:44] <fsphil> reminds me, I better apply for the next one a bit earlier
[12:44] <cuddykid> fsphil, sending him another email, so annoyed!
[12:44] <fsphil> doubt it would help
[12:44] <cuddykid> he told me 16 days ago that it would be 10-14 days! still nothing
[12:44] <fsphil> and may even have the opposite effect
[12:44] <cuddykid> might do
[12:44] <cuddykid> he's probably going on strike soon aswell
[12:46] <jonsowman> cuddykid: phone him
[12:46] <cuddykid> sent email now, if I don't hear from him by tomorrow I will do
[12:53] <GW8RAK> I wonder if anyone can help. I need to measure the air flow through a fabric and am wondering how to do it. IIRC the highest overpressure exerted by the wind is about 0.5psi, so relatively low pressures.
[12:54] <GW8RAK> Ideally, I want answers of windproof to 40/60/80 mph etc. Any ideas very welcome.
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[12:57] <cuddykid> a wild stab.. perhaps a hairdryer or the likes pointed at fabric then see what happens the other side.. not at all scientific but may give a little indication
[12:58] <Randomskk> I guess theoretically if you had the stagnation and static pressure on the back surface you could work out the velocity of air that's come through
[12:58] <GW8RAK> That is roughly my thought as well cuddykid, but wondering if a water manometer would also work. If 15psi is about 10m of water, .5 psi is 33cm of lift on one side.
[12:59] <GW8RAK> But that is static pressure. Is it the same as a dynamic pressure?
[12:59] <Randomskk> no
[12:59] <cuddykid> sounds very comp. .. not sure!
[12:59] <Randomskk> stagnation pressure = static pressure + dynamic pressure
[12:59] <Randomskk> stagnation pressure is what you measure after the fluid's been slowed to zero velocity, e.g. in a flow-facing pitot tube
[13:00] <Randomskk> dynamic pressure is the pressure due to velocity
[13:00] <GW8RAK> Exactly, hence air resistance is not the same as windproofness.
[13:00] <Randomskk> static pressure is the kind of base ambient pressure
[13:00] <GW8RAK> I suppose a heated body and a windtunnel?
[13:01] <Randomskk> windtunnels would be good I guess.. you could put like an anemometer surrounded by the fabric in controlled velocity airflow and see how fast it spins, as again a rough measurement
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[13:01] <GW8RAK> Would that be a reasonable approach? Heat a mass to 40C, measure the energy going in, then apply a wind etc
[13:02] <GW8RAK> That certainly replicates windchill which is what this is all about.
[13:02] <Randomskk> that's a fairly indirect measurement via forced convection
[13:02] <Laurenceb> id apply a pressure across the fabric and measure flow volume
[13:02] <Randomskk> but if you are trying to measure windchill that's not a bad idea
[13:02] <Randomskk> I imagine there's an actual established test method for windchill
[13:02] <Laurenceb> interesting problem - i saw this effect leading to decreased performance in my rogallo
[13:03] <GW8RAK> Rogallo?
[13:03] <Laurenceb> but yeah measure flow volume using compressed air
[13:03] <Laurenceb> http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:ukhas_glider_project:pict7921.jpg?w=700
[13:04] <GW8RAK> If one was measuring chilling of a body and using that as an infered measure of air resistance, would a constant wind speed or pressure be a valid test?
[13:05] <GW8RAK> The bottom line is that I don't care what the air resistance is, as long as windchill is minimised.
[13:06] <Laurenceb> this seems masively overcomplex
[13:06] <Laurenceb> setup a test rig with compressed air
[13:06] <Laurenceb> then measure flow volume
[13:06] <Randomskk> that will get you air flow
[13:06] <Randomskk> but not windchill
[13:08] <GW8RAK> I can envisage a heated mass enclosed in a fabric skin and the whole lot in a "wind tunnel" to measure rate of heat loss and windchill, or the wind tunnel have a layer of fabric across it and measure the flow on the low pressure side.
[13:08] <Laurenceb> i thought this was for airflow through a fabric wing?
[13:09] <GW8RAK> No, sorry, Arctic expedition clothing.
[13:09] <Laurenceb> oh isee
[13:09] <GW8RAK> I can calibrate against known performance fabrics, but the question is how good are other fabrics?
[13:10] <cuddykid> why did the glider guys opt for rogallo in the end? Is it due to increased strength when pulling out of dive?
[13:11] <Laurenceb> its very stable
[13:12] <cuddykid> surely a glider would be too? but then again it might roll over
[13:12] <Laurenceb> doesnt suffer from spiral dive and similar
[13:12] <Laurenceb> glider needs a good control system
[13:12] <cuddykid> ahh right
[13:12] <Laurenceb> proper three axis stabilisation
[13:12] <cuddykid> has the rogallo been tested yet? Seems very well built!
[13:13] <Laurenceb> yes - released from 11km
[13:13] <Laurenceb> it flew well but want controlled very well as a winch servo line came undone
[13:13] <Laurenceb> *wasnt
[13:14] <cuddykid> nice
[13:14] <Laurenceb> but yeah nice stable flight down from 11km
[13:14] <cuddykid> going to have a stab at building a glider with IMU etc over next couple of months
[13:15] <Laurenceb> me too :P
[13:15] <cuddykid> I think a key bit will be the strength in the foam wings
[13:15] <cuddykid> so going to have to custom build it with carbon rods etc
[13:15] <cuddykid> awesome!
[13:15] <cuddykid> yours will probably be one hell of a lot better! haha
[13:15] <Laurenceb> im porting openpilot code
[13:16] <cuddykid> been v inspired by these guys - http://members.shaw.ca/sonde/
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[13:16] <cuddykid> oh right, haven't looked at openpilot, been looking at ardupilot but seems an overkill for what I need
[13:17] <cuddykid> just want it to stabilise (possibly built with dihedral wings to aid this) then just head in predetermined direction using ailerons and/or rudder and elevators
[13:20] <cuddykid> originally planned a quadcopter but stabilisation too complicated
[13:21] <cuddykid> not sure how to test though as I'm not planning on including motors and rc equipment; have you got solution for this Laurenceb?
[13:21] <Laurenceb> launch down a hill :P
[13:23] <cuddykid> yeah! .. I have visions of it flying off to some far away land haah
[13:25] <SpeedEvil> Tie it to a pigeon.
[13:26] Nick change: MoALTz_ -> MoALTz
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[13:33] <Upu> cuddykid you awake ?
[13:33] <cuddykid> yeah :)
[13:33] <Upu> hey
[13:33] <Upu> your DS1821 code
[13:33] <Upu> did you make it up or get it somewhere ?
[13:34] <cuddykid> got it from somewhere, but changed the unique device id's to my own ones
[13:34] Nick change: Zuph_ -> Zuph
[13:35] <Upu> I'm going to do a temp sensor howto for the wiki mind if I steal and hack your code up a little ? Will credit ofc
[13:35] <cuddykid> no problem what so ever! Your guides are fantastic!
[13:35] <cuddykid> great work on the ntx2 one btw
[13:35] <Upu> I wouldn't go that far :)
[13:35] <Upu> whats your project called ?
[13:36] <cuddykid> HABE
[13:36] <Upu> oh yes I see you on the Wiki
[13:36] <Upu> you got a site ?
[13:36] <cuddykid> they are great, and when you're just starting out it's a real help to have good guides :)
[13:36] <cuddykid> no, just wiki page currently
[13:36] <Upu> cheers
[13:37] <Upu> I still don't understand why the newer sensors don't work with my existing libraries
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[13:38] <Upu> and don't worry about disk space on UKHAS used 11Gb of 1.3Tb... :)
[13:38] <cuddykid> yeah, never understood why they didn't either :S
[13:38] <cuddykid> oh wow
[13:38] <cuddykid> !
[13:39] <Upu> DISK OK - free space: / 1317003 MB (99% inode=99%):
[13:41] Action: Daviey eats inodes for lunch.
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[13:51] <mixio> anyone here?
[13:52] <SpeedEvil> If no
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[13:58] <BrainDamage> try !!a && !!b && !!c
[13:59] <Zuph> SpeedEvil: That will work, but depending on processor/compiler, it might be slower.
[13:59] <BrainDamage> this way you're doing an imlicit bool cast
[13:59] <Zuph> (by a small handful of cycles)
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[14:01] Nick change: zeusbot_ -> zeusbot
[14:01] <SpeedEvil> http://www.gizmag.com/d-dalus-uav-design/18972/
[14:01] Action: SpeedEvil fails to understand.
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[14:01] <SpeedEvil> Is it a number of big sor-of-centrifugal blowers?
[14:06] <griffonbot> Received email: Dan Bowen "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hollowing Styrofoam (Polystyrene) blocks."
[14:07] <Laurenceb> im guessing theres airfoil blades on those rotors
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[14:07] <Laurenceb> and the angle of attack changes as they go round
[14:07] <Laurenceb> i dont see the point of it
[14:08] Action: SpeedEvil ponders if it's sort-of a squashed quadrotor.
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> With the blades oscillating back and forth, not round and round
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[14:23] <cuddykid> anyone know where to buy styrofoam (the brand)? none of the big hardware stores (wickes, b&q etc) seem to sell it
[14:24] <Dan-K2VOL> Hmm they really don't address the problems of blade angle servo reliability in flight, and the repercussions of in-flight failure of the servos.
[14:24] <Upu> cuddykid 1 sec I'll see where I got mine from
[14:25] <cuddykid> thanks upu
[14:29] <Upu> http://www.hindleys.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=7_57_60_292
[14:29] <Upu> http://www.hindleys.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=7_57_60_292&products_id=9635
[14:29] <Upu> thats the stuff I got
[14:29] <cuddykid> thanks :)
[14:30] <cuddykid> that looks great for the glider I'm going to build
[14:32] <Upu> With UHU Por glue
[14:33] <Upu> http://www.uhu.com/en/products/plastic-and-model-building-adhesives/detail/uhu-por.html?no_cache=1&step=49
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[14:37] <cuddykid> great! :)
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[14:54] <Camer0n> hello, what is the average size of a balloon once it reaches 30km if it started off as a balloon with a 1m diameter
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[14:59] <Upu> big :)
[14:59] <Upu> Camer0n http://www.hwoyee.com/base.asp?scclassid=521
[15:00] <fsphil> I usually tell people 20 metres, but I've no idea where I got that from. I may just have made it up
[15:00] <Camer0n> lol ok
[15:00] <Upu> 10 meters for a 1600g balloon from Hwyoee
[15:00] <Upu> Hwoyee
[15:00] <fsphil> ah, so I'm telling people a little lie :)
[15:00] <Camer0n> ok well I'll try measuring it tomorow and work it out, thanks for the link, I couldn't find anything anywhere!!
[15:01] <Camer0n> fsphil, RocketBoy is coming to my school again tommorow
[15:01] <fsphil> excellent
[15:01] <Upu> oh Steve will know
[15:01] <Camer0n> ok
[15:01] <Camer0n> I remember he said something about the size of the room but I want it to be a bit more acurate for my predictor thing
[15:02] <Upu> 10 meters is a room :)
[15:02] <Camer0n> yeah
[15:02] <fsphil> you could mount a camera looking up at the balloon
[15:02] <fsphil> measure it on the way up
[15:02] <fsphil> ah - you're doing this for a live tracker
[15:02] <fsphil> n/m
[15:02] <Camer0n> for now I'll go with 6.8m diameter
[15:02] <Camer0n> because he said it will reach 30km when it bursts
[15:03] <fsphil> it might
[15:03] <Camer0n> well its a live tracker with predicted results
[15:03] <fsphil> you can never accurately predict burst height
[15:03] <Camer0n> so it will be where we think it is
[15:03] <Camer0n> ok
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[15:04] <Camer0n> (we do have a tracker just not a public one)
[15:04] <fsphil> awww :)
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[15:04] <Camer0n> hmm?
[15:05] <SamSilver> thats mean
[15:05] <Upu> why a private one ?
[15:05] <Camer0n> so that people dont come and steal it
[15:05] <Upu> lol
[15:05] <SamSilver> lol
[15:05] <Upu> the payload ?
[15:05] <Camer0n> yeah
[15:05] <Upu> you should be the first there if you're tracker is working :)
[15:05] <Camer0n> it cost us £750 for the tracker
[15:06] <Camer0n> (well BT funded it
[15:06] <SamSilver> put a false off switch on it
[15:06] <Upu> theres a free one at www.spacenear.us :)
[15:06] <Upu> £750 for the payload or the tracker ?
[15:06] <SamSilver> then when the crooks steal it and switch it off it will track them
[15:06] <Camer0n> tracker Upu
[15:06] <Upu> ok
[15:07] <Upu> the code to the spacenear.us is open source and you can run it yourself but hey ho
[15:07] <Camer0n> http://www.projectstratos.com/map.php is the one i made
[15:07] <Camer0n> 1 sec and I'll upload some coords
[15:07] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/tracker/
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[15:08] <Camer0n> oh...
[15:08] <Upu> https://github.com/rjw57/cusf-landing-prediction
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[15:09] <Camer0n> no!!
[15:09] <Camer0n> oh well, to late now :(
[15:09] <Camer0n> http://www.projectstratos.com/map.php I've added realtime coords
[15:09] <Camer0n> if i was to launch about 10 mins ago
[15:09] <SamSilver> lol
[15:10] <Camer0n> click on the two and it will show some info
[15:10] <Camer0n> i want to have things like the estimated pressure and balloon size
[15:10] <Camer0n> I know the pressure increases exponetially so if i know the balloon gets 6.4 times bigger i should be able to work i out
[15:10] <Upu> well depends on the balloon so previous link is for Hwoyee balloons
[15:11] <Upu> Kaymont
[15:11] <Upu> http://kaymont.com/pages/sounding-balloons.cfm
[15:11] <Camer0n> I'll ask Mr RAndall tomorow
[15:11] <Camer0n> wat type of balloon it is
[15:11] <Upu> He uses both but they are almost the same to be honest
[15:12] <Upu> Hwoyee apparently go a little higher
[15:12] <Upu> what size is the balloon ?
[15:12] <Camer0n> about 1m in diameter
[15:12] <Upu> I mean weight ?
[15:12] <Camer0n> oh i don't know
[15:12] <Upu> goes on the weight normally
[15:13] <Camer0n> ok
[15:13] <Dan-K2VOL> I have to say I've never heard of anyone stealing a payload!
[15:13] <Camer0n> lol ok
[15:13] <Upu> just make it beep loudly and write "bomb" on the size it won't get touched trust me
[15:14] <Upu> p.s that was a joke
[15:14] <Camer0n> its my teacher being paranoid
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[15:18] <Dan-K2VOL> Haha, that's ok, but usually I've been paranoid that no one will ever find it
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[15:20] <Camer0n> the tracker we have shouldn't let us down, we have a £750 one with gps/gprs/radio and another tracker RocketBoy gave us to copy.
[15:20] <Upu> fsphil would love it if someone could find his
[15:20] <Camer0n> we did it the first time and we lost it! Aparently it was something to do with the tracker turing off after a certain height. We got it back a month later but the camera hadn't recorded anything!
[15:24] <mixio> £750 tracker?
[15:24] <fsphil> they'd have to be pretty dedicated Upu
[15:24] <mixio> u meant 75
[15:25] <fsphil> Camer0n, what radio?
[15:25] <SamSilver> tby the tracker you mean the equipment that gets airbourne?
[15:28] <mixio> my atmega644p program is about 31kb :)
[15:28] <mixio> is that good fsphil? :p
[15:31] <mixio> my complete flight system: http://imagebin.org/159504, http://imagebin.org/159503
[15:31] <mixio> now its about time after 1 year to start making a payload :p
[15:33] <fsphil> depends on what it does mixio :)
[15:33] <Dan-K2VOL> Nice PCB mixio
[15:33] <Dan-K2VOL> We're running the same sensor and openlog on sparkfun
[15:34] <Dan-K2VOL> On whitestar I mean
[15:34] <Dan-K2VOL> The humitidiy and baro
[15:35] <mixio> nice, but i dont use openlog, dont know what is this
[15:36] <mixio> i just move jpeg picture bytes from camera to microSD and inject in the picture data some flight data
[15:36] <fsphil> I'd love to add an SD card sometime
[15:37] <cuddykid> wow... you'll certainly want to retrieve a £750 tracker... mine backup gprs one is £50 and I thought that was a lot..
[15:37] <mixio> fsphil: and wherer do u save any of your flight data?
[15:37] <fsphil> I don't mixio, it's all transmitted over the radio
[15:38] <mixio> !
[15:38] <mixio> u need to add then !
[15:38] <fsphil> last flight about 350k was transmitted
[15:38] <fsphil> (not including error correction)
[15:39] <cuddykid> btw, before I forget, jonsowman or natrium42 (or any others with appropriate permission) can you add int & ext temp to my reading on the spacenear tracker please ( a graph would be marvellous too if it's not too much work!) .. really appreciate it! thanks
[15:39] <mixio> coool
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[15:39] <fsphil> only lost some data when it was near the ground
[15:39] <fsphil> but I'd still like the sd card for backup
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[15:40] <cuddykid> is there any script floating around to parse the raw data from the spacenear telemetry log? Was thinking of creating one to retrieve all the temp readings so I could graph them after, as I don't have an sd card on board
[15:41] <fsphil> don't think so, but it's a pretty simple format
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[15:43] <mixio> yes
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[15:45] Nick change: cuddykid_ -> cuddykid
[15:46] <mixio> maybe i should publish my code?
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[16:03] <NigeyS> meh meh
[16:03] <cuddykid> mixio: sorry, was that a response to my Q? Internet went all strange for a few mins
[16:04] <cuddykid> the one thing that never fails to piss me off with tech around the house is damn wifi, never seems to "just work" (in the words of Steve Jobs). Randomly stops working for no reason whatsoever
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[16:07] <m1x10> cuddykid: no, sorry. 'yes' was going to fsphil
[16:08] <cuddykid> no probs
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[16:18] <fsphil> home time
[16:18] Action: fsphil runs away
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[16:36] <SamSilver> bbl
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[16:42] <cuddykid> is it possible to include a link to current launch status in the NOTAM details to prevent continual bombardment from pilots querying launch?
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> 'on the website cuddykid dot co dot uk'
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> Or similar?
[16:44] <cuddykid> yeah
[16:44] <cuddykid> so pilots can check
[16:45] <cuddykid> to see current status before calling!
[16:47] <Randomskk> yea sometimes that works
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[18:02] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> Evening.
[18:07] <jcoxon> i got very confused earlier - checking hte voltage for a lipo and getting nothing
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> Protection?
[18:08] <jcoxon> just realised that its probably the cutout circuitery getting in the way
[18:08] <jcoxon> yeah
[18:11] <cuddykid> postie should be bringing some solar cells in the post soon :D
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> I'm idly considering solar panels.
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> Well - somewhat less than idly.
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> I bought a 300W grid-tie inverter cheap from china.
[18:14] <BrainDamage> and it didn't explode yet within the box? sealed and never used?
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> I have a couple of car batteries here to test it with initially
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> If it doesn't last at least a few hours at 300W, I'm doing the paypal 'significantly not as described' thing
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[18:16] <SpeedEvil> Worst case is I have a handy kit of inductors and stuff for a 150W
[18:17] <cuddykid> nice
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> BUt at 40 quid...
[18:18] <cuddykid> managed to get 2 of solar botics larger pannels (still small though) for free
[18:18] <cuddykid> thinking of putting them in glider's wings to power equipment
[18:20] <cuddykid> also, if someday I was to include a small motor, and solar panels provided enough power, it could open the possibility of maintaining a v high altitude for a long time
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> A) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fully-Fitted-Solar-PV-Installations-MCS-Listed-2-2kW-/360374475540?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item53e7fe1b14
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5KW-6x6-Solar-Cells-Factory-Short-Tab-DIY-Solar-Panel-/180660394172?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1032d8bc
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> B)
[18:29] <Elwell> cuddykid: (NOTAM queries) -- you need to link asterisk to the tracker :-)
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/got-a-cute-hostage-huh-wanted-man-updates-facebook-status-during-16hour-standoff-20110622-1ge63.html
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[18:31] <fsphil> the predictor seems totally dead atm
[18:32] <fsphil> or is it google maps that's broken
[18:33] <Dan-K2VOL> cuddykid unfortunately the propeller for high altutude use will have to be monstrously large, and incompatible with lower altitudes
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: maybe not
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: If you shift modes.
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> Consider a helicopter prop
[18:34] <cuddykid> Elwell: how do you mean? Just put a link on the page to the tracker?
[18:35] <Dan-K2VOL> changing pitch just won't cut it if you're talking about the difference between 1km to 40km altitude
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: no - but changing mode between VTOL and wing-supported
[18:35] <cuddykid> Dan-K2VOL: if the glider is good at maintaining alt then surely a powerful prop won't be required (but I suppose it's a big if!)
[18:36] <Dan-K2VOL> well, honestly I don't think any low speed aircraft will be able to both work at high altitude and low altitude
[18:36] <Dan-K2VOL> for wings or prop
[18:36] <Dan-K2VOL> you could make one work for either easily and cheaply, but not both
[18:36] <Elwell> cuddykid: nah have a phone no (sipgate...) linked to some AVR Voodoo that reads out the status of the baloon
[18:36] <cuddykid> ahh :( nevermind then, just a wacky idea!
[18:37] <Elwell> over engineered solutions ftw
[18:37] <cuddykid> lol
[18:37] <Dan-K2VOL> people have used traditional RC gliders on a few balloon flights, which are optimized for low altitudes, perhaps you could try the high altitude optimized design
[18:37] <Dan-K2VOL> basically massive wings and propellers. because the drag would be so low it could all be inflatable
[18:38] <cuddykid> that's a good idea, I was thinking large wings but my problem is surviving the pull out after the fast velocity drop (due to low air density)
[18:39] <Dan-K2VOL> would be neat to make an inflatable that slowly compressed as it got lower to optimal smaller airfoils as it descended deeper into the depths of the atmosphere
[18:40] <Dan-K2VOL> well if you make the wings designed for 100,000 ft you won't need to have a fast drop
[18:40] <cuddykid> suppose so, but guessing it would require monstrous wings!
[18:40] <Dan-K2VOL> yes it sure would, probably something like the size of a small passenger plane
[18:41] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm we need makerbots that can churn out seam-welded inflatable objects
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: I've wondered about a vertical takeoff UAV that transitions to horizontal flight as the prop gets sane for horizontal flight at higher RPM
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: with wings that are largely useless on the way up
[18:44] <Dan-K2VOL> speedevil that sounds neat
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/test.png
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> Basically that - but with a couple of _really_ light wings strapped to it
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> And - the sucky part - a drop battery.
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[19:00] <mixio> my first payload weight test showed 620grams including alkaline batteries
[19:00] <mixio> 5 alkalines will be replaced by 5 lithiums
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[20:02] <nickolai_> afternoon all
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[20:17] <SamSilver> bbl
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[20:26] <nickolai_> hey i'm new to ballooning and i've been looking at radios lately. I see most people use the radiometrix ntx2, but i have a couple questions about it. First of all, do I need a separate antenna on the balloon in order to be able to use it? Second, would I be able to use it in the US (I believe the frequencies it operates on are only license exempt in the UK)?
[20:26] <SpeedEvil> seperate for what?
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> from
[20:27] <nickolai_> i.e. does the ntx2 have a decent antenna, or do i need to hook one up to it?
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[20:27] <SpeedEvil> you need to hook one up
[20:27] <SpeedEvil> It can be several copper wires with straws to support them
[20:28] <nickolai_> o ok, so nothing intense then
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[20:29] <nickolai_> what about the frequencies, any idea?
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[20:43] <griffonbot> @cuspaceflight: NOVA 19 launch tomorrow 11am from Churchill College, Cambridge, given suitable ground weather. #ukhas #cusf [http://twitter.com/cuspaceflight/status/83636352326971392]
[20:50] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[20:51] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jonsowman!jonsowman@kryten.hexoc.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk - CUSF Nova 19 Launch ~1100BST 23/06/11 from Churchill College, Cambridge
[20:51] #highaltitude: mode change '-o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
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[20:52] <Upu> what frequenc is Nova on ?
[20:52] <jonsowman> there are two payloads, both on 434.650
[20:52] <Upu> good
[20:52] <jonsowman> I don't have details at the moment, will send an email round when I do
[20:52] <fsphil> oooh launch tomorrow?
[20:53] <Upu> 434.075 is a nightmare round here
[20:53] <jonsowman> fsphil: very weather dependent
[20:53] <Upu> S4 interference
[20:53] <jonsowman> ground weather is looking marginal tomorrow morning in Cam
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[20:53] <jonsowman> it might be a last minute calloff
[20:53] <Upu> oh btw bug in dl-fldigi if you are connected via hamlib and turn your rig off, you can't close dl-dlfldigi
[20:54] <jonsowman> Upu: github issues page perhaps?
[20:54] <Upu> sure
[20:57] <Upu> done let me know if you need more info sorry I'm not great at bug reports
[20:59] <fsphil> I've seen hamlib prevent the 817 turning on again
[20:59] <jonsowman> it's not me who'll be looking at it :)
[21:00] <jonsowman> fsphil and jcoxon do most work on dl-fldigi afaik?
[21:01] <fsphil> it tends to get worked on in bursts
[21:03] <fsphil> Upu, does it happen regular fldigi too?
[21:04] <fsphil> *happen with
[21:04] <Upu> not checked it
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[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> hello people
[21:32] <nickolai_> hey lander
[21:34] <fsphil> g'day LL
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> hello nickolai_ and fsphil
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> nickolai_ you are new?
[21:35] <nickolai_> yes i am actually
[21:35] <nickolai_> still workin on my project, don't think i'll be launching for a few weeks at least :)
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> are you in RUS?
[21:37] <nickolai_> no, US
[21:37] <nickolai_> i was born in russia tho
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:37] <nickolai_> do you know who on here is in US?
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> yes, Dan
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> and stilldavid
[21:38] <nickolai_> o yea, i remember reading stilldavid's blog
[21:38] <nickolai_> what about you, are you uk?
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> I'm from Germany
[21:40] <nickolai_> cool
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :D
[21:40] <nickolai_> how old r u?
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> 21
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> and you?
[21:41] <nickolai_> 21
[21:42] <nickolai_> are you also working on your first launch?
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[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:43] <nickolai_> cool, i think i saw a post of yours earlier today on a forum, it was something like orbitforums?
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> orbiter-forum.com
[21:45] <nickolai_> yea you were mentioning that you were still looking for a gps unit, did u decide on one?
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, this one
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> wait
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=518
[21:48] <nickolai_> i went with a garmin, gps 18x lvc, super ez to connect to arduino but looks like it draw more power than the venus
[21:50] <stilldavid> hiya, nickolai_
[21:50] <nickolai_> hey how's it going?
[21:51] <stilldavid> not too bad. you talkin' gps units?
[21:51] <nickolai_> yea a little bit
[21:51] <nickolai_> you had some trouble with the garmin didn't you?
[21:51] <stilldavid> I think that was just the implementation for some reason, I don't think it was the GPS unit itself
[21:51] <stilldavid> still was never able to reproduct
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> yeah nickolai_
[21:52] <nickolai_> yea, i've gotten fairly good altitude results from the garmin
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> hi stilldavid
[21:52] <stilldavid> as have I, closer to the ground :) we did get a successful read from >30km
[21:52] <fsphil> we used a garmin for our first flight, it worked pretty well
[21:52] <stilldavid> hi Lunar_Lander
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[21:52] <nickolai_> i think it'll be fine
[21:52] <stilldavid> I've switched to uBlox
[21:52] <stilldavid> yeah, should be
[21:53] <nickolai_> what i'm really happy about is that someone on the arduino forums pointed me to the TinyGPS library :D
[21:53] <stilldavid> that's great :) IIRC the garmin is inverted ttl
[21:53] <nickolai_> yea, i had to use newsoftserial for that one
[21:53] <stilldavid> which I made an inverter for, but once I found tinyGPS I realized it's just another flag you can pass to it :)
[21:54] <nickolai_> oh rly? good then i can take out nss and save some space
[21:54] <stilldavid> where are you based, nickolai_ ?
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[21:54] <nickolai_> NJ
[21:54] <stilldavid> cool. I'm in CO
[21:54] <nickolai_> nice
[21:54] <nickolai_> so you used a radiometrix ntx2 for your transmitter right?
[21:55] <stilldavid> yes, works well
[21:55] <stilldavid> took a page out of the UKHAS team's book
[21:55] <nickolai_> i've been trying to read up on the legality of that unit in the us. do u need a ham radio license to use it?
[21:55] <stilldavid> I don't *think* so, because it's only 10mW, but you'll need a ham receiver
[21:55] <stilldavid> that can do SSB
[21:56] <fsphil> afaik the 434mhz band is license exempt in the US too
[21:56] <nickolai_> so... i'll need a license to use the receiver?
[21:56] <stilldavid> no, not to receive
[21:57] <stilldavid> but you'll need the radio :)
[21:57] <nickolai_> yea, i've been looking at those... they look kinda expensive
[21:57] <nickolai_> perhaps the most expensive single part of the project
[21:57] <stilldavid> if you can find someone in the ham community, they'll probably let you borrow one for a day
[21:57] <stilldavid> definitely, but the most fun if you get your ham ticket as well :)
[21:59] <nickolai_> how much time did it take you to get it?
[22:00] <stilldavid> I bought a book and read it the morning of the test :)
[22:00] <stilldavid> the hardest part is finding somewhere to take it
[22:01] <nickolai_> hm, good to know
[22:01] <stilldavid> if you know basic electronics it shouldn't be too bad. There's a couple of formulas you'll need to memorize
[22:02] <stilldavid> that I've since forgotten :)
[22:02] <nickolai_> lol, nice
[22:02] <nickolai_> i just graduated engineering school, memorizng formulas is certainly a specialty of mine :)
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> yeah like what happens with resistors in series or parallel
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> or capacitors
[22:03] <nickolai_> what's the format of the test?
[22:03] <stilldavid> multiple choice
[22:04] <nickolai_> lol, sounds like cake
[22:04] <stilldavid> http://www.arrl.org/question-pools
[22:07] <Lunar_Lander> nickolai_ I'll try and go for an arduino system
[22:07] <nickolai_> you haven't decided yet?
[22:08] <Lunar_Lander> of course I have decided
[22:08] <Lunar_Lander> the trying refers to "trying to program it"§
[22:09] <Lunar_Lander>
[22:10] <nickolai_> ah
[22:10] <stilldavid> nickolai_: it's supposed to be easy, like a minimum barrier to entry kind of thing
[22:10] <nickolai_> hm
[22:10] <nickolai_> good to know
[22:10] <nickolai_> Lunar_Lander, is there any particular part you're having trouble on?
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> no, I only need the GPS
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> and I have to wait till next week to order it
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:11] <nickolai_> ah i see
[22:12] <nickolai_> look up the TinyGPS library for arduino, it does all the parsing you'll need
[22:12] <Lunar_Lander> cool thanks
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[22:13] <nickolai_> happy to pass on the knowledge :)
[22:14] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:15] <Lunar_Lander> NTX2+Arduino Uno+GPS give a basic tracker
[22:17] <nickolai_> +receiver
[22:17] <nickolai_> :)
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :)
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> and then you can add science
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[22:19] <nickolai_> are you doing any experiments on your project?
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> well I'll have the normal sensors on, first of all
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> pressure, temperature, humidity
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> two light sensors
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> and then there are many ideas
[22:20] <nickolai_> like what?
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> like a field mill for measuring electric fields
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> or an ion counter
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> or a 3D magnetic compass to measure turbulence
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[22:24] <nickolai_> 3D magnetic compass? wow i've never even heard of such a thing
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> well
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> wait
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[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> I have to read up what it was exactly
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[22:28] <hibby> would that not be a combination of sensors?
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> nickolai_ http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/JTECH1860.1
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> "The technique uses a Hall effect magnetic field sensor, carried on a standard Vaisala RS80 meteorological radiosonde"
[22:29] <hibby> ah
[22:29] <nickolai_> hm
[22:35] <nickolai_> radio ordered :)
[22:35] <SpeedEvil> ::)
[22:36] <hibby> ooh
[22:36] <hibby> whatchoo getting?
[22:36] <nickolai_> ntx2
[22:37] <nickolai_> seemed to be the most popular
[22:37] <hibby> cool
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> the receiver is the thing
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> some guy puts up a Yaesu FT790 every once in the while on ebay
[22:39] <Lunar_Lander> for 300 pounds
[22:40] <nickolai_> that a lot...
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[22:40] <hibby> that's the expensive bit, sadly.
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[22:40] <nickolai_> i'm hoping i can get in touch with a local radio club and borrow one for launch
[22:40] Action: hibby was enjoying reading all the receipts from the install of our satellite station last week
[22:40] <nickolai_> although, i'd also want to borrow it for testing...
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[22:40] <hibby> ... no less than £20k
[22:41] <nickolai_> huh?
[22:41] <kristianpaul> Laurenceb: what you understand with binary reference clock ?
[22:41] <hibby> nickolai_: I spent the year setting up/running a satellite station at a University in Glasgow
[22:41] <kristianpaul> actually " frequency plan is based on a binary reference clock rather than the GPS chip clock."
[22:41] <hibby> and that's how much it cost the taxpayer, for me to play with radios...
[22:41] <nickolai_> haha
[22:41] <nickolai_> nice
[22:42] <nickolai_> so what do you do at this satellite station? do youtalk to the iss?
[22:42] <hibby> not including the students' balloon projects/etc
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> kristianpaul: It may simply be a nominal clock frequency unsynchronised in any way to the GPS signal.
[22:42] <hibby> nickolai_: it's tied into research/testing/development of cubesats/microsatellits, ISS is just for when I get bored, really.
[22:42] <hibby> we do some HAB projects and so on using it.
[22:43] <nickolai_> cool
[22:43] <hibby> it also means I've free range over an ft-817 to take wherever I want
[22:44] <hibby> amongst other things
[22:44] <hibby> lovely Icom IC-910 as the base station, with the 1.2GHz module installed
[22:44] <kristianpaul> SpeedEvil:btw can you explain me how to run octave for borre code? :-)
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> No, sorry, I know almost nothing of octave.
[22:44] <kristianpaul> ah
[22:44] <kristianpaul> Laurenceb: ^
[22:44] <kristianpaul> :D
[22:45] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[22:45] <kristianpaul> me too (almost nothing of octave)
[22:45] <Lunar_Lander> many ham receivers don't go up to 433 MHz!
[22:46] <hibby> and, more importantly, do SSB on V/UHF
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> so we can't use that?
[22:47] <nickolai_> octave, isn't that the open source attempt to clone matlab?
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> Scilab is freeware Matlab I think?
[22:48] <Zuph> Octave is the free matlab
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok
[22:48] <Zuph> And it's pretty darn good, with the exception of some libraries
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> can it execute .m files
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[22:48] <Zuph> For the most part.
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[22:48] <Zuph> Things like the image processing library and control system toolbox have some different syntax.
[22:48] <Zuph> Also, function calls are *expensive* in Octave.
[22:49] <nickolai_> i remember trying to use it with pplane and it just failed
[22:49] <hibby> Lunar_Lander: use what?
[22:49] <Zuph> I had a script iterating over a huge matrix, same exact .m file, took 5+ minutes in octave, 15 seconds in matlab.
[22:49] <kristianpaul> I'm aware i should bloat the sampled in order to be 16 signed in , i have some code to do that, but dunno is is correct the output it generates..
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> hibby a receive that does SSB on V/UHF
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> or did I misunderstood you?
[22:49] <Zuph> One great one-up over matlab, though, dead simple to import C functions.
[22:50] <hibby> ah. Generally, SSB is a pretty rare function on cheap V/UHF receivers these days, and from my experience, transmitting rtty from an NTX-2 doesn't work well with FM decoders
[22:50] <Lunar_Lander> yeah true
[22:50] <hibby> IC-910 is all mode, which is nice, but the millions of handys available at £50 are pretty much useless
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[22:51] <nickolai_> Zuph: I'll have to investigate it again. Maybe it will ne able to solve some issues i'm having with matlab...
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[22:53] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Hollowing Styrofoam (Polystyrene) blocks."
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[00:00] --- Thu Jun 23 2011