highaltitude.log.20110601

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[03:39] <Darkside> hmmmmmm
[03:39] <Darkside> anyone here looked at teh ublox6 chipsets?
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[05:18] <Darkside> hmm
[05:30] <Darkside> i think i might look at using the uBlox timepulse output as a clock generator for RTTY
[05:30] <Darkside> i.e. sync the transmissions to GPS time
[05:30] <Darkside> i wonder if you could estimate distance using that
[05:39] <Darkside> crap, it might be possible
[05:50] <Darkside> no, it *is* possible
[05:50] <Darkside> oh man, i'm totally doing that on a balloon flight
[05:51] <Darkside> to get the instantaneous distance to the balloon :P
[06:57] <fsphil> but not where it is ;)
[06:58] <Randomskk> that's just a matter of triangulation :P
[06:59] <Darkside> heh
[07:00] <Darkside> that'd be interesting to try
[07:00] <Darkside> you'd have to take into account the group delay through the receiver
[07:00] <Randomskk> and a fairly significant delay on the transmit side, I'd imagine
[07:00] <Randomskk> potentially calibratable
[07:00] <Randomskk> doubt you'd get accuracy down to GPS levels though
[07:00] <Darkside> mm
[07:01] <Randomskk> GPS involves a lot of clever tricks to do what it does, let along ridiculous levels of precision in calculations
[07:01] <Darkside> i was thinking of using the ublox's timepulse output as a clock for an xmegas serial port
[07:01] <Randomskk> but stuff like phase information and all that
[07:01] <Darkside> that should have a systematic error associated with it
[07:01] <Randomskk> indeed, it should all be systematic
[07:01] <Darkside> a systematic delay i mean, as it is a hardware USART
[07:02] <Randomskk> yea
[07:02] <Darkside> and the USARTS serial output would be used to select a frequency for a FSK modulator
[07:02] <Darkside> the USART will take care of start and stop buts
[07:02] <Darkside> bits*
[07:02] <Randomskk> it could potentially work
[07:02] <Darkside> at teh right baud rate, it should be demodulatable in fldigi, as standard RTTY
[07:03] <Randomskk> I guess you could do the maths to work out how many receiving stations and how far apart you'd need them to get useful accuracy
[07:03] <Darkside> and it will also have that extra level of information on it, in the timing of the frequency shift
[07:03] <Darkside> Randomskk: well the aim isn't to position the balloon
[07:03] <Darkside> its just an interesting experiment
[07:03] <Randomskk> theoretically you could though
[07:03] <Darkside> yeah
[07:03] <Randomskk> as an even more interesting experiment
[07:03] <Randomskk> all it needs is more ground stations
[07:03] <Darkside> i'd actually be using the transmitter to measure group delay through an ionospheric channel
[07:03] <Randomskk> and clever maths
[07:04] <Randomskk> indeed
[07:04] <Darkside> Randomskk: and careful characterisation of each receiver
[07:04] <Randomskk> true
[07:04] <Randomskk> no one said it would be easy :P
[07:04] <Darkside> for example, if i was using an Icom IC-7000, i'd have to take into account DSP processing delay
[07:04] <Darkside> with an analog receier, there would be a delay there too
[07:04] <Randomskk> indeed
[07:05] <Darkside> i wonder how you could calubrate that out...
[07:05] <Darkside> man... this is weird shit
[07:05] <Randomskk> tie it all to a computer and pulse the tx, watch for when you rx
[07:05] <Randomskk> might want to run a real time kernel at that
[07:05] <Randomskk> right, bbl, revision
[07:05] <Darkside> would need some seriously high sample rates for that
[07:05] <Randomskk> seriously
[07:05] <Darkside> hehe
[07:05] <Darkside> good fun tho
[07:15] <eroomde> morning all
[07:15] <jonsowman> morning
[07:19] <SamSilver> bbl
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[07:25] <eroomde> Darkside: if you use your dds is reverse to make a receiver, you could suddenly start getting into some very sexy stuff
[07:25] <eroomde> with antenna arrays
[07:35] <Darkside> eroomde: heh
[07:35] <Darkside> yeah i was thinking about how i'd do the RX side of it
[07:35] <Darkside> as all my incoming samples would need to be timestamped
[07:35] <eroomde> i guess you could use the tx as the basis of the downconvertor
[07:36] <eroomde> with arrays i think you just use a single clock for every receiver
[07:36] <Darkside> mm
[07:36] <Darkside> i'd be operating at HF btw
[07:36] <eroomde> sure yep
[07:36] <Darkside> so antenna arrays wouldn't be feasble
[07:36] <eroomde> sure they would!
[07:36] <eroomde> you just need a big feild
[07:36] <Darkside> the distance between antennas would be huge
[07:36] <Darkside> nah, not doing it :P
[07:37] <Darkside> not when i can just get the bloody GPS data from the payload
[07:37] <Darkside> or use direction finding to locate it
[07:37] <eroomde> i want to do it for 70cm
[07:38] <eroomde> so one can fly a bunch of payloads simultaneously on the same frequency
[07:40] <Darkside> why not synchronise the transmissions to GPS
[07:40] <Darkside> and use spreading codes and such, and do correlation
[07:40] <eroomde> try doing a spreading code with an ntx2 that has a 3khz lpf
[07:40] <eroomde> ...
[07:40] <eroomde> and gps-sync just means it breaks when people loose gps locks
[07:40] <Darkside> heh
[07:41] <Darkside> i have a solution to this problem
[07:41] <Darkside> move to a country without shitty radio laws
[07:41] <eroomde> more expensive and less worthwhile than building an array!
[07:41] <Darkside> :P
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[09:13] <fsphil> sure it's landing on a mountain, but it's still pretty good :) http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=3fb98df577f88740bd7a4d1cb152dff6c86d6ad8
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[09:17] <fsphil> got a couple of people for the chase team too
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[10:10] <cuddykid> how much is spherachute shipping cost to uk?
[10:53] <Laurenceb> stupid usb windows drivers
[10:53] <Laurenceb> "device error" well thanks very much
[10:53] <Laurenceb> that help me narrow down the problem a lot
[10:57] <fsphil> hehe, had an "Error: Unable to print" error a few minutes ago
[10:57] <fsphil> no indication as to why
[10:58] <Laurenceb> im trying to patch some firmware
[10:58] <Laurenceb> its now uttery broken :/
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[12:19] <eroomde> cuddykid: don't know. drop them an email - they probably have a range of shipping options
[12:31] <cuddykid> have done eroomde :)
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[13:25] <Laurenceb> muhahah cal code seems to work
[13:25] <Laurenceb> looks like its suffering from B field distortion
[13:26] <eroomde> Laurenceb: I think you should get a twitter account
[13:26] <Laurenceb> lol
[13:26] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: You still running it in octave?
[13:26] <Laurenceb> yes
[13:27] <Laurenceb> theres no way im coding this in c
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[13:54] <cuddykid> anyone have any tips for cleaning soldering iron tip?
[13:54] <Dan-K2VOL> yes
[13:55] <Dan-K2VOL> buy a new one
[13:55] <cuddykid> mines horrendously dirty and as a result doesn't give off much heart
[13:55] <cuddykid> lol
[13:55] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm serious
[13:55] <cuddykid> ok
[13:55] <cuddykid> would a replacement tip do the job?
[13:55] <Dan-K2VOL> if you can't get it clean, the plated coating has oxidized off
[13:55] <Dan-K2VOL> yes
[13:55] <cuddykid> that will be the problem, tried to sand paper it lol
[13:55] <Dan-K2VOL> and for maximizing the life of your tip here are some 'tips':
[13:56] <Dan-K2VOL> - use a brass coil sponge not water sponge (avail from many places like sparkfun)
[13:56] <fsphil> also get one of those metal sponge things, I've found it brilliant for cleaning the tip
[13:56] <fsphil> ooh, dan beat me
[13:56] <Dan-K2VOL> - make sure there's a coating of solder on your tip, all over, whenever you're not using it
[13:57] <cuddykid> oooh right, thanks for the help!
[13:57] <Dan-K2VOL> - don't leave it on for long periods at high heat
[13:57] <Dan-K2VOL> those 3 things will really lengthen the life of your tips
[13:57] <cuddykid> thanks
[13:57] <cuddykid> will try and get a metal sponge
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[13:59] <Dan-K2VOL> also you might want to explore some different shaped tips, while you're at it, and see which you like best for whatever you're working on
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[14:01] <cuddykid> ahh, can't find the right tips for my iron, I have an antex er-30 by the looks of it.. doesn't look like maplin stock these.. a bit odd
[14:01] <cuddykid> I'm probably reading it wrong!
[14:03] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm I don't see that model number: http://www.antex.co.uk/prodtype.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=180&numRecordPosition=1
[14:04] <Dan-K2VOL> is it older?
[14:04] <cuddykid> right.. found my iron in maplin (they still sell it)
[14:04] <cuddykid> http://www.maplin.co.uk/30w-soldering-iron-45545
[14:05] <cuddykid> however, under the accessories section, the replacement tip no longer seems available
[14:09] <BrainDamage> that tip is kinda standard, unless they used custom sizes
[14:10] <cuddykid> phoned them up.. they had it in store but just not on website
[14:10] <cuddykid> reserved one for me :)
[14:10] <BrainDamage> buy more than 1, and possibly with different shapes
[14:10] <BrainDamage> they are cheap
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[14:12] <fsphil> a decent solder station is nice to have too
[14:12] <fsphil> for the stand
[14:13] <BrainDamage> you can buy stands separately for few $, a soldering station is nice because of the temperature control
[14:13] <fsphil> mmm indeed
[14:14] <fsphil> I think mine came from maplin - can't remember now
[14:14] <cuddykid> ahh cool, gonna go in a bit
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[14:53] <SpeedEvil> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163683/cycles-in-family-tree-software
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[15:45] <W0OTM> feedback? http://www.ihabproject.com/BallooMerang_logo.jpg
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> Why not BalloNerang?
[15:47] <W0OTM> whats a Nerang?
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> err
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> It just seems to flow better
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> I'd be wondering about dropping the HAB
[15:49] <W0OTM> its the iHAB logo
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Ah - right
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> In that case, looks good.
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[15:56] <chris_99> is that going to be like a glider with servos in W0OTM
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[15:59] <W0OTM> yes
[15:59] <BrainDamage> powered or unpowered glider?
[15:59] <W0OTM> chris_99: unpowered
[15:59] <W0OTM> oops, BrainDamage
[16:00] <W0OTM> aren't all "gliders" unpowered?
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> No.
[16:00] <BrainDamage> no, there's gliders that have motors to gain altitude
[16:00] <BrainDamage> the motor is just used to climb
[16:00] <BrainDamage> then the travel is done in glide mode
[16:00] <W0OTM> How is that different than an "airplane?
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi0hrjqU15I
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> powered glider
[16:01] <BrainDamage> an airplane uses the motor pretty much always
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> (with no motor)
[16:01] <W0OTM> BrainDamage: ill have to look up the definition of an "airplane" and "glider"
[16:02] <W0OTM> BrainDamage: but to clarify, our BallooMerang is a unpowered glider
[16:02] <chris_99> yeah gliders defonitely can have motors, my friend used to fly one, makes it easier to get into the air than a tether i assume
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> Dynamic soaring is insane.
[16:03] <W0OTM> BallooMerang will fly autonomously from ~100K feet back to the launch site
[16:03] <BrainDamage> I had the silly idea of a glider with huge glide ratio + small motor & solar panels and see how long it could float around
[16:04] <BrainDamage> I'll have to carefully check motor consumption, etc
[16:04] <chris_99> that'd be funky, like a UAV
[16:04] <chris_99> almost
[16:05] <W0OTM> BrainDamage: in the US, powered UAV MUST stay below 400ft AGL
[16:05] <BrainDamage> I'm not in the us, I'd have to check italy's regulations
[16:05] <W0OTM> BrainDamage: ahh, good plan
[16:05] <kd0mto> Like all rules, they only apply if you get caught :)
[16:06] <W0OTM> kd0mto: you are correct, its all about "risk"
[16:07] <W0OTM> kd0mto: but rest assure that the HAB community would not be afraid to ensure you get caught
[16:07] <kd0mto> I'm well aware.
[16:08] <BrainDamage> the problem of staying low altitude, is that I'd have to jury rig a radar, and that'd be a nasty extra load for power consuption
[16:08] <BrainDamage> as well as be a good engineering challenge
[16:08] <SpeedEvil> SRTM?
[16:08] <kd0mto> Something that bothers me is a recovery system that is passive and safer than just having your HAB payload fall is illegal according to the FAA
[16:09] <kd0mto> if it's autonomous that is
[16:09] <eroomde> yes, silly really
[16:09] <eroomde> but that's how it goes
[16:09] <Dan-K2VOL> well kd0mto the balloon laws have not been updated in decades
[16:09] <W0OTM> kd0mto: ??
[16:09] <BrainDamage> SpeedEvil: I'd have to check how large the data is
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> BrainDamage: A short for every 30*30m square.
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> (or 90*90m outside of the USA)
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> A SD can cope with it easily
[16:10] <BrainDamage> that's very interesting
[16:11] <BrainDamage> thanks for the idea
[16:11] <kd0mto> W0OTM: We looked, autonomous gliders are illegal below 60,000 feet in the US. Then after that you can have an autonomous device as long as it's below 400ft and line of sight with some type of override for RC control.
[16:11] Action: kd0mto has combed through the FAA regulations on this one too much and just got pissed off and gave up.
[16:12] <W0OTM> kd0mto: your source of information is not correct
[16:13] <kd0mto> The FAA?
[16:14] <kd0mto> Granted, we found our information to be conflicting.
[16:15] <Dan-K2VOL> The FAA regs have changed a few times in the last few years on that subject
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> Same with the CAA
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> When I started my idea for a UAV, it was not (strictly) illegal.
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> Now it's lots more complex.
[16:16] <kd0mto> Yeah, and there is a nice loophole about "experimental aircraft" that they can sign off on but reserve the right to bitch later saying it violated their rules.
[16:17] <eroomde> I thought that experimental aircraft needed an experimental license in the us
[16:17] <Dan-K2VOL> Considering that there's conflicting info on the net due to outdated regulations, I think we should provide some references instead of absolute "you're wrongs"
[16:18] <eroomde> I'm giving W0OTM the benefit of the doubt by assuming the silense is because he's finding refs right now...
[16:18] <kd0mto> eroomde: It's not hard to get an experimental license. It can be autonomous, but the FAA reserve's the right to bitch when they find out it violated their laws regardless if they signed off on it or not.
[16:18] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: I am an email from the head of the FAA UAV division with a revised doc (not released yet)
[16:18] <W0OTM> I will be posting that doc on our website prior to our first launch
[16:18] <kd0mto> I hope the fix it so that HAB systems can have GPS guidance systems. It would make recovery easier and safer.
[16:19] <chris_99> you're not allowed to use a GPS on the balloon in the US?
[16:20] <Dan-K2VOL> so W0OTM wins the argument by virtue of secret evidence, unarguable by default
[16:20] <Dan-K2VOL> ;-)
[16:20] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: yup
[16:20] <eroomde> worths for creationists!
[16:20] <eroomde> works*
[16:21] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: not about winning an argument, its about ensuring compliance of current regs.
[16:21] <eroomde> kd0mto: might be worth an email to this fellow to see if he'll extend the same courtesy to you as to W0OTM
[16:21] <kd0mto> chris_99: You can use GPS, you just can't have the GPS allow for course correction, like on decent.
[16:22] <kd0mto> I'm broke at the moment, traveling, and don't have a group to work with so at this time I'm just working on packet radio stuff and some other projects.
[16:22] <eroomde> i presume it's just steering that makes it a 'auv' right?
[16:22] <kd0mto> eroomde: bingo
[16:22] <W0OTM> "This document is in the process of being updated, however on page 4 under definitions you will find that the definition of a UAV does not include traditional balloons."
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[16:22] <eroomde> e.g. you can use a gps to sequence, say, the deployment of a 2nd chute at lower alt
[16:22] <W0OTM> Unmanned Aircraft: A device used or intended to be used for flight in the air that has no onboard pilot. This includes all classes of airplanes, helicopters, airships, and translational lift aircraft that have no onboard pilot. Unmanned aircraft are understood to include only those aircraft controllable in three axes and therefore, exclude traditional balloons
[16:22] <W0OTM> The new draft version of this document, 10-01 changes the definition slightly:
[16:22] <W0OTM> Unmanned Aircraft: A device used or intended to be used for flight in the air that has no onboard pilot. This includes all classes of airplanes, helicopters, airships, and translational lift aircraft that have no onboard pilot. Unmanned aircraft do not include traditional balloons, rockets, tethered airplanes and un-powered gliders.
[16:22] <chris_99> why don't you whack the document on the web
[16:23] <W0OTM> chris_99: I said I would before I launch
[16:23] <chris_99> aha
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> Traditional balloons - however it says nothing about the payload surely?
[16:23] <eroomde> ah excellent
[16:23] <eroomde> so you *can* legally do a parafoil from 30km
[16:23] <eroomde> that's cool
[16:23] <eroomde> now to get over the fact that you can't physically
[16:24] <kd0mto> who care's, W0OTM that made my day.
[16:24] <kd0mto> Wait... did they just say we can put guidance systems on rockets now?
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> Oh - 'unpowered gliders'
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> Woo!
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> What about ramjets?
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:25] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: now you can kiss my ass.... "so member:W0OTM wins the argument by virtue of secret evidence, unarguable by default"
[16:25] <eroomde> kd0mto: again i have no idea what the 'current' state is but once upon a time there was a definition that rockets had to go up +/- some number of degrees, otherwise it was a missile
[16:25] <kd0mto> This is legal now?!?!??! http://hackaday.com/2010/08/03/diy-guided-missile-err-model-rocket/
[16:25] <Dan-K2VOL> thank you for the quotation W0OTM that is useful info
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[16:26] <kd0mto> So... who wants me to make and early abort system for high altitude balloons?
[16:27] <eroomde> kd0mto: what do you have in mind?
[16:27] <Dan-K2VOL> Actually I'd like a JATO pack for launching payloads in high winds
[16:27] <Dan-K2VOL> to get over nearby trees
[16:28] <kd0mto> eroomde: Take this post http://hackaday.com/2010/08/03/diy-guided-missile-err-model-rocket/ and make it target balloons.
[16:28] <eroomde> oic
[16:28] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: I will post a copy of the full amended copy of the document, AND the name and contact info of the FAA Safety Inspector (source of the doc) when iHAB-BallooMerang makes its first flight
[16:28] <eroomde> well, as i said i think it becaomes a problem if you deviate too much from vertical
[16:28] <kd0mto> One could argue that a remote operated cut down is better, but not NEARLY as fun.
[16:29] <eroomde> it becomes a guided missile rather than a guided rocket
[16:30] <kd0mto> Meh, only if you get caught. I would love to make precision guided water balloon delivery system.
[16:30] <kd0mto> If you think about it, pranks with water balloons relies on technology from the middle ages. Clearly it's time for that to change.
[16:30] <eroomde> i like your style
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> Naah.
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> You don't need precision guidance to advance technology.
[16:31] <W0OTM> kd0mto: "only if you get caught" once again, you will get caught....if not directly by the feds, we (the community) will turn you in. You WILL NOT risk our hobby
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> Precisely weighed balloons.
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> Time-on-target barrages.
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> All doable with a ballistae or similar.
[16:32] <kd0mto> Oh great, not the super hero hams again.
[16:35] <kd0mto> I miss the RGS system we had.
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[16:36] <kd0mto> We built a balloon recovery system in our lab back at school. It got tossed out of a black hawk helicopter that the national guard had.
[16:36] <Dan-K2VOL> I've ordered a spool of PVA, poly vinyl alcohol plastic for our 3D printer (makerbot) to start experimenting with water soluble payload mounts. I'm hoping to make a simple mount that will dissolve when you've been hanging in a tree for a few rainstorms
[16:38] <eroomde> that's a really neat idea
[16:38] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd like to make it very easily availble to any balloonists, so I'll put the build files online, but also will try to just make a pile of them for others who want them
[16:38] <kd0mto> I need to finish my packet modem on a dsPIC for bidirectional communication. I was thinking of using a second burner board to cut down from the parachute.
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: Interesting idea.
[16:41] <kd0mto> Dan-K2VOL: Only question I have, what if your balloon is stuck in a cloud for a bit and the moisture it absorbs causes an early release of the chute?
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> The PVA takes some time to dissolve.
[16:41] <cuddykid> new solder tip works a treat
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> cuddykid: Were you having problems with it not being tinned?
[16:42] <Dan-K2VOL> kd0mto the device would just have to be designed to be resistant to that situation
[16:42] <cuddykid> SpeedEvil: I had completely bust the other one.. must have oxidised away, was in a real state
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> Possibly.
[16:42] <eroomde> also any water your payload gets on the way up will freeze of evaporate off within a short time as you continue to ascend
[16:42] <cuddykid> picked up another from maplin for £2.29
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> Once it goes through the plating - things get messy.
[16:42] <Dan-K2VOL> cuddykid lol that was really fast, do they have physical stores?
[16:43] <cuddykid> also got my balloon ordered this afternoon :_
[16:43] <cuddykid> Dan-K2VOL, yeah lol
[16:43] <cuddykid> not too far from me
[16:43] <cuddykid> my soldering though is still hideously dodgy
[16:44] <cuddykid> wouldn't be surprised if that is my downfall in flight!
[16:44] <kd0mto> Dan-K2VOL: I like your idea, but for the sake of cool factor it would be sweet if a charge was ignited or something releasing the chute.
[16:44] <Dan-K2VOL> haha of course
[16:45] <BrainDamage> thermite
[16:45] <cuddykid> woo, looks like the temp sensors survived my soldering!
[16:46] <BrainDamage> cuddykid: if the tip is oxidized, it conducts heat much worse, also solder won't wet it
[16:46] <BrainDamage> soldering will be much easier now
[16:46] <cuddykid> BrainDamage, yeah, there was no heat going through the tip
[16:46] <BrainDamage> as well as you'll break stuff less thanks to not having to keep heat for long
[16:46] <cuddykid> yeah!
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[16:50] <cuddykid> hmm, a little odd, my temp sensors are now about 1.5C apart. Before they were about 0.1C apart
[16:51] <SpeedEvil> Sometimes devices can take a wile to return to baseline after being soldered
[16:51] <eroomde> you just soldered one of them right?
[16:51] <SpeedEvil> Dueto stress effects on the package
[16:51] <cuddykid> eroomde: yeah
[16:51] <cuddykid> ahh right
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[16:57] <kd0mto> guidance systems not really explained.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvhbrx7tkgY&feature=grec_index
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[19:24] <SamSilver> bbl
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[20:39] <MrCraig> Is there any interest to be had in instrumentation to measure volcanic ash?
[20:39] <eroomde> rharrison wanted to do it last year
[20:40] <fsphil> would there be any still up there?
[20:40] <MrCraig> perhaps not but I've finally had time to begin considering flight two and I'd guess there's a chance the cano might billow some more
[20:42] <Matt_soton> jonsowman: http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mfb2g09/IMG_1823.JPG
[20:43] <Matt_soton> finally bothered to upload an image
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[20:46] <jonsowman> nice Matt_soton
[20:46] <jonsowman> looks godo
[20:46] <jonsowman> *good
[20:47] <jonsowman> what are the s/ware h/ware pads?
[20:48] <Matt_soton> to select whether u want to use hardware or software serial for the GPS
[20:48] <jonsowman> oh right
[20:48] <jonsowman> cool
[20:49] <Matt_soton> so then u can use the hardware port for something that actually needs it
[20:49] <jonsowman> yep
[20:49] <jonsowman> makes sense
[20:49] <jonsowman> why is the ICSP text mirrored?
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[20:54] <Matt_soton> oops
[20:54] <Matt_soton> didnt notice :P
[20:55] <Matt_soton> i think i ment to put it on the back but didnt change layers
[20:55] <jonsowman> oh
[20:55] <jonsowman> oop
[20:55] <jonsowman> oops
[20:55] <jonsowman> lol
[20:56] <MrCraig> hey jonsowman
[20:57] <jonsowman> hi MrCraig
[20:57] <MrCraig> Sorry for not emailing yet :)
[20:57] <jonsowman> not a problem, I've got exams until 10th june so won't be doing anything spaceflight related until then :)
[20:57] <MrCraig> *nods good luck with those
[20:57] <jonsowman> thanks :)
[20:59] <Dan-K2VOL> MrCraig might be able to do it with the sparkfun dust sensor?
[20:59] <Dan-K2VOL> we're using it to detect ice clouds
[20:59] <Dan-K2VOL> or hope to anyway
[20:59] Action: MrCraig googles the sensor
[21:00] <MrCraig> thanks Dan-K2VOL I'll have a look.
[21:00] <MrCraig> it'd be nice to have a stand-by payload in case of another cloud
[21:00] <jcoxon> MrCraig, expose some clean double sided tape during the flight (which are then covered up) to see if you get any dust?
[21:01] <Dan-K2VOL> good idea jcoxon
[21:02] <Dan-K2VOL> I think nigeyS is doing something like that to collect high flying bacteria
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[21:03] <Laurenceb_> hi all
[21:03] <MrCraig> jcoxon: an idea so simple I wish I'd thought of it
[21:03] <MrCraig> hi Laurenceb
[21:03] <jcoxon> MrCraig, perhaps a small box lined with sticky tape which a servo opens and then closes the lid
[21:04] <jcoxon> stick a photodiode in there to record when it is open and exposed and then closed
[21:04] <Laurenceb_> oh god not that
[21:04] <MrCraig> jcoxon: do you think it even needs that level of control? I'm wondering if it could be exposed for all but the end of the flight
[21:05] <jcoxon> Laurenceb_, you still haunted by sampling the upper atmosphere?
[21:05] <jcoxon> MrCraig, can be as simple as you need it to be
[21:06] <fsphil> I fancy sticking some double sided tape on hadie, but it'll probably get contaminated on landing
[21:06] <jcoxon> perhaps rig something to cover it up when the parachute gets a bit of resistance
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> oh
[21:06] <MrCraig> I reccon the misses could get me some of those medical growth dishes
[21:06] <Laurenceb_> its a sampler
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[21:07] <Laurenceb_> i thought you were talking about pointless machines (TM)
[21:07] <fsphil> oooh -- sticky tape on the inside of a tube
[21:07] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z86V_ICUCD4
[21:07] <fsphil> each end opened, the middle parts should keep away from the ground
[21:08] <MrCraig> fsphil - perhaps an elastic driven iris?
[21:09] <MrCraig> to close it off when the chute tugs a pin
[21:09] <fsphil> even better
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> An elastic irishole?
[21:10] <Laurenceb_> that sounds very wrong
[21:10] <MrCraig> lol
[21:10] <fsphil> haha
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[21:12] <fsphil> thinking of something that would open while falling, using the wind resistance
[21:13] <jcoxon> how about an aerobrake
[21:13] <jcoxon> large cardboard section attached by elastic which would pull away by drag
[21:13] <jcoxon> opening up the tube
[21:15] <MrCraig> have to say though that systems triggered from the lift line make me feel a little uneasy
[21:15] <fsphil> that's my worry, having seen payloads getting battered about quite badly
[21:15] <jcoxon> well you'd provide a safety loop that would bypass all this
[21:15] <jcoxon> in case it broke
[21:16] <MrCraig> oh, my concern is more about accurate trigger timing than safety
[21:16] <fsphil> I think for simplicity I'll stick something on that's open ended, just to see what it catches
[21:17] <MrCraig> *nods - or time from the gps alt reading at least
[21:17] <fsphil> I'll curve it so hopefully only things being carried in by the wind will stick
[21:17] <jcoxon> fsphil, how about have a tube with a end as well - the open end facing up - see if you collect anything slightly bigger
[21:18] <fsphil> ooh
[21:18] <fsphil> good idea
[21:18] <MrCraig> top idea, you could have several with varied apetures to sift what's caught by size
[21:19] <jcoxon> you might capture some cloud :-)
[21:19] <fsphil> or be incredibly lucky and catch some cosmic dust :)
[21:19] <fsphil> I need to find some pvc tubing
[21:19] <fsphil> the stuff I have is too thin
[21:20] <MrCraig> or one of those moths that was born before the invention of the light bulb and is still trying to reach the sun
[21:20] <fsphil> lol
[21:21] <fsphil> forecast is for some cloud so it'll probably pick up some water
[21:21] <jcoxon> we could pH test it
[21:40] <MrCraig> fsphil what camera did you use when you did live jpeg transmission?
[21:45] <jonsowman> MrCraig: I believe it was the c328 serial cam
[21:47] <MrCraig> thanks jon - I'm sitting on a pair of cameras that I recovered from eeepc's that died at some point. Each of them has a small pin head that slots onto the motherboard but I'm 95% certain it's usb in a different package. Thinking I might be able to interface with them but have concerns about the communications protocol because I've no clue what it is.
[21:47] <pericynthion> those built-in cameras are usually usb, yes
[21:48] <pericynthion> what are you trying to interface it to?
[21:49] <MrCraig> *nods, the question really is what's transmitted. I guess I could setup a uart on the data pin and try to monitor / reverse engineer it. I'd want to connect it to some form of microcontroller, whatever chip might be fast enough to do something with the data.
[21:49] <pericynthion> you're not going to have any luck with anything short of linux on a gumstix or similar
[21:50] <MrCraig> hmm, well a linux kernel is still an option.
[21:50] <MrCraig> thanks - I'll have a play with them - I've no fear damaging them, they're nothing special - 1.3MP salvage.
[21:51] <fsphil> MrCraig, yep C328-based camera from cool components
[21:52] <MrCraig> thanks fsphil :-) Something to take a look at too.
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[21:58] <SpeedEvil> MrCraig: It's almost certainly the same interface basically.
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> MrCraig: You have 8 data pins, and you need to set it up over an I2C bus
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> With the right voltages applied.
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> Then you apply a clock, and read the data out in 1/60th of a second.
[21:59] <MrCraig> 8 data pins? I thought this was serial?
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> But you need to read it out that fast, or you don't get a picture
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> Nope.
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> The setup is serial - the output is parallel.
[22:01] <MrCraig> right, ok - then this usb based module I have has to be something different. It's not got enough pins and I know it'll do a live video stream because I've used it in action. I'll probably be a lot more successful to buy one or two of those and rtm rather than mess with the usb thingies.
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> For even more modern cameras, the output is two pins, and it's LVDS
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> So it's even less usable
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> There may be under 20 pins, including all the grounds.
[22:03] <MrCraig> sounds like I'm going to need pretty serious hardware to do anything with camera sensors directly :)
[22:04] <SpeedEvil> yeah, it's annoying.
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> You basically always need to clock it at a few MHz
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> And need a meg or two of RAM.
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> Which means that it's into the 'serious processor' category.
[22:06] <BrainDamage> there's some diy friend cams, but despite being crappy tech they are not cheap
[22:06] <BrainDamage> I remember a 30$ ttl one from seedstudio, max 640*480 :/
[22:06] <MrCraig> Once we start talking about processors and ram I start thinking budget android mobile with cam.
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> Pretty much.
[22:07] <MrCraig> I think there's the odd model available at about £40 now? It could be rooted and coded as a simple linux device and should already have all the drivers and software required... and with a little luck, built in gps sensor too.
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[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[22:51] <pericynthion> SpeedEvil: netbook built-in webcams are usually USB
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[22:53] <SpeedEvil> pericynthion: yeah - I mean the low-level modules.
[22:53] <SpeedEvil> Sorry.
[22:53] <pericynthion> :)
[22:53] <SpeedEvil> The camera modules that are not single chip USB webcams.
[22:54] <pericynthion> how have you been?
[22:54] <pericynthion> (you may also know me as hmh33 / hhallam)
[22:55] <Randomskk> hhallam!
[22:55] <Randomskk> I have only heard of you
[22:55] <Randomskk> or something
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[00:00] --- Thu Jun 2 2011