highaltitude.log.20110519

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[00:29] <griffonbot> Received email: Mission Excelsior "Re: [UKHAS] How do you get a canon powershot to auto shoot?"
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[00:35] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Spy-Camera-Coat-Hook-Gadget-DVR-Pinhole-Hidden-Spycam-/300518918368
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[07:47] <elyptikus> good morning
[07:48] <elyptikus> anybody out there?
[07:49] GW8RAK (~chatzilla@host86-153-49-199.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[07:50] <elyptikus> hi GW8RAK
[07:50] <elyptikus> can I ask you something?
[07:51] <GW8RAK> Hi elyptikus, by all means.
[07:51] <GW8RAK> Ask away
[07:51] <elyptikus> ok :D
[07:51] <elyptikus> do you use temperature sensors in your balloon?
[07:51] <Hibby> elyptikus: i have in the past
[07:51] <elyptikus> which did you use?
[07:51] <GW8RAK> I haven't flown a balloon yet, but yes there are temperature sensors.
[07:51] <Hibby> dallas 18b20, iirc
[07:52] <Hibby> onewire things
[07:52] <eroomde> we have used lm75 with success too
[07:52] Action: Hibby goes afk for a few hours
[07:52] <Hibby> speak after exam ;)
[07:53] <elyptikus> an how did you read the sensors?
[07:53] <eroomde> i2c
[07:53] <Hibby> any my code is on my github
[07:54] <Hibby> hibby
[07:54] <GW8RAK> DS18B20 here also
[07:54] <elyptikus> did somebody try the arduino?
[07:54] <Hibby> elyptikus: again, see my github
[07:54] <elyptikus> can i use i2c codes on it?
[07:54] <elyptikus> hehe thanks :)
[07:55] <Hibby> speak later all
[07:55] <eroomde> elyptikus: yes, the ardui has built in i2c ports
[07:55] <eroomde> so you will have no problem using i2c devices with the arduino
[07:55] <elyptikus> ok
[07:58] <eroomde> elyptikus: where are you based, do you mind me asking?
[07:58] <elyptikus> in switzerland...
[07:59] <eroomde> ah - that could make recovery challening!
[07:59] <eroomde> where abouts?
[07:59] <elyptikus> lucerne
[07:59] <GW8RAK> If I am reading the datasheet correctly, the DS18B20 is not I2C. Just a single wire interface. However, that could be the Picaxe chip protecting me from i2c
[08:00] <elyptikus> i tried till now the LM335Z but the minimal temperatur is-40°C
[08:00] <eroomde> correct, it's 1-wire
[08:00] <eroomde> you'll have to write (or copy-paste) a soft port for it
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[08:02] <elyptikus> why you have to wire a soft port? you can just read out the (-) pole with an analog pin...
[08:03] <eroomde> 'one-wire' is a digital interface, rather than an analogue one
[08:03] <eroomde> so it communicated digitally, transmitting strings of bytes
[08:03] <GW8RAK> 12 bit temperature data output
[08:04] <eroomde> so the job of the interface programmer is to recover the bits, which can be done with just a digital input pin and a timer
[08:06] <griffonbot> Received email: John Graham-Cumming "Re: [UKHAS] How do you get a canon powershot to auto shoot?"
[08:24] <NigelMoby> Morning
[08:28] <KF5KWE> Ok so is there any way to transport a gas cyliner in a sedan, and is hydrogen even legal to fill balloons with in the US?
[08:35] <KF5KWE> The only information i have found regarding transport says not to in a cabin, but could rolling the windows down satisfy the requirements of pressure safety?
[08:38] <fsphil> I transport HE in the boot, though I'd rather have it out on a trailer
[08:40] <fsphil> I don't think I'd risk putting H2 in the car
[08:40] <GW8RAK> KF5KWE - the problem is one of a leak occurring and asphyxiation occurring rather than pressure safety
[08:41] <KF5KWE> Woulnd't you get around that if you have no A/C and *have* to ride with windows down?
[08:41] <fsphil> btw there was a thread on the GPSL mailing list recently about H2 safety
[08:41] <GW8RAK> That may solve the problem from the practical point of view, but insurance companies probably wouldn't like it.
[08:42] <GW8RAK> If it's a small leak, an open window will solve the problem. But if the valve was damaged in an accident, I wouldn't like to be near it.
[08:42] <KF5KWE> Right
[08:43] <KF5KWE> Well I would imagine I have bigger issues with the insurance company if I get into an accident anyways
[08:43] <GW8RAK> Had a regulator fail once and it vented a full tank of H2 into the lab at full pressure. The noise was frightening.
[08:43] <fsphil> !!
[08:44] <KF5KWE> wouldn't we all be talking in low pitched voices if H2 leaked in the car?
[08:44] <KF5KWE> I would definitely think something is up
[08:45] <GW8RAK> Never heard of anyone filling their lungs with H2.
[08:46] <GW8RAK> We used to use He and answer the phone :)
[08:46] <KF5KWE> You trolling me?
[08:46] <GW8RAK> No, why?
[08:46] <KF5KWE> I've heard of people doing it all the time...
[08:46] <KF5KWE> They even did it on tv on that one show mythbusters
[08:47] <GW8RAK> Strange, we used to play with He in the lab, but no-one ever tried H2.
[08:47] <GW8RAK> Don't know why.
[08:47] <fsphil> because it's explosive when mixed with oxygen :)
[08:48] <fsphil> I wonder if it would make the voice go a higher pitch than HE
[08:48] <KF5KWE> Lower actually
[08:48] <KF5KWE> real low
[08:48] <KF5KWE> Baratone
[08:48] <GW8RAK> I was just thinking about our attempts to mix a He/O2 mix and it would be too easy to just apply the same logic to H2 and O2 and forget it's explosive nature
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[09:39] <KF5KWE> whats a typical descent rate?
[09:39] <KF5KWE> I assume a good deal faster than acent but that's a presumption
[09:39] <KF5KWE> I'm thinking, 1000g with a 24" parachute here
[09:44] <KF5KWE> !?? convert
[09:44] <KF5KWE> bugger
[09:44] <jonsowman> :)
[09:45] <KF5KWE> damned metric system
[09:45] <jonsowman> metric is great, hehe
[09:45] <Laurenceb> lol
[09:46] <Elwell> uh oh. Relay race at work today.
[09:46] <KF5KWE> .6m, that puts me outside of the lines
[09:46] <Elwell> fit looking people. off to hide
[09:50] <KF5KWE> My desk is huge, lots of hidey space
[09:50] <KF5KWE> Boss comes round on a friday night, run
[09:50] <KF5KWE> he will look for me
[09:53] <KF5KWE> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=a607322278ece92eef5d96d3a730a12369fb7432
[09:53] <KF5KWE> lol wtf is that zig zag
[09:55] <jonsowman> i can believe that
[09:55] <jonsowman> wind patterns are odd
[09:56] <griffonbot> @yamaric: @JJBourdin_RMC @chrisjaku de plus, il y aurait un risque pénal http://minu.me/4git #DSK #FMI #France #CSA #Arhab #20Minutes [http://twitter.com/yamaric/status/71152179574091776]
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[09:59] <KF5KWE> Is it a good idea to launch in a city, like from my backyard?
[09:59] <NigeyS> that'll be AMS installed then :D
[09:59] <NigeyS> KF5KWE, no
[09:59] <NigeyS> do not launch or land in a heavily populated area :)
[10:00] <staylo> Rule of thumb: If you find yourself asking 'Is it a good idea', you probably already suspect it isn't ;)
[10:00] <NigeyS> hehe ello staylo
[10:00] <staylo> NigeyS: Morning :)
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[10:02] <KF5KWE> Well I kinda dont want to drive hours out of town
[10:04] <jonsowman> you don't have a lot of choice :P
[10:04] <jonsowman> launching in a town isn't a wise idea
[10:04] <NigeyS> hey jonsowman
[10:05] <jonsowman> hi NigeyS
[10:05] <NigeyS> how's the dreaded E's going ?
[10:05] <jonsowman> 2 and a half weeks till they begin
[10:05] <jonsowman> revision at the moment
[10:06] <jonsowman> D:
[10:06] <KF5KWE> So is a park a good idea? Say a park near the edge of town early morning?
[10:06] <jonsowman> it depends on how big the town/city is, which way the balloon's going, etc.
[10:06] <NigeyS> ahh, revision is essential, but such a bore :(
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[10:06] <KF5KWE> Well, say the balloon is predicted to go east, and I go to a public park on the east edge of town
[10:07] <jonsowman> that could be fine, check approach paths etc for nearby airports
[10:07] <jonsowman> I'm sure the FAA would tell you about that kind of thing when you apply for launch permision
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[10:08] <KF5KWE> well the faa only requires you to file a notam IIRC
[10:08] <KF5KWE> earing the EOSS website
[10:08] <jonsowman> right
[10:09] <Darkside> O.M.F.G.
[10:09] <Darkside> SDR-Radio is freaking win
[10:09] <KF5KWE> most of the people I see writting up on their launches say they can't even find the right person at the FAA to call and just get redirected until someone says they aren't available
[10:10] <jonsowman> that doesn't surprise me
[10:10] <KF5KWE> governments seem all the same everywhere... eh?
[10:10] <jonsowman> yup
[10:11] <KF5KWE> I just have to maintain some simple rules
[10:11] <KF5KWE> 50lb breaking line, foam capsule, under 4lb's
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[10:11] <jonsowman> where are you getting your Helium from out of interest?
[10:11] <KF5KWE> No where yet
[10:11] <KF5KWE> still probably a few months from that
[10:12] <jonsowman> ah right
[10:13] <NigeyS> KF5KWE, you gone off the idea of hydrogen then? :D
[10:13] <KF5KWE> Don't know yet
[10:13] <KF5KWE> from what I gather h2 might be too dangerous to transport
[10:13] <KF5KWE> at least in my car
[10:14] <NigeyS> under no circumstances carry H in a car
[10:14] <fsphil> I'm more worried about the filling bit. it seems quite easy to ignite it
[10:14] <jonsowman> just don't basically
[10:14] <jonsowman> it's not worth the risk
[10:15] <KF5KWE> I've talking with a few people on transporting He though and they suggested I just handle it smartly, roll a window down
[10:15] <jonsowman> yes that's pretty much it
[10:15] <jonsowman> don't have an accident :)
[10:15] <KF5KWE> Yeah that is often on my to-do list for driving
[10:15] <jonsowman> you'll be fine
[10:15] <jonsowman> haha
[10:15] <jonsowman> glad to hear it
[10:16] <KF5KWE> Tickets on the other hand...
[10:16] <KF5KWE> Well let's just say speed traps have a way of finding me
[10:17] <KF5KWE> The helium prices I can gather will cost about 2/3rds the launch costs
[10:17] <KF5KWE> the rest is the balloon
[10:17] <jonsowman> it isn't cheap
[10:17] <jonsowman> well, relatively
[10:18] <KF5KWE> cheaper than renting a truck to move H2
[10:18] <jonsowman> indeed
[10:18] <KF5KWE> way i figure, the H2 will probably cost me 70$ or so
[10:18] <KF5KWE> and I will probably have to have a deposit on the tank/regulator
[10:19] <KF5KWE> + a fee per day of use
[10:19] <KF5KWE> Just gathering on what others have said
[10:19] <KF5KWE> And the best place would be a friendly welding supply distributor
[10:19] <jonsowman> sounds sensible
[10:20] <jonsowman> it's a lot cheaper than in the UK
[10:20] <KF5KWE> all our gasses are cheaper :P
[10:20] <NigeyS> $70 ..:O right thats it coming to the states to launch some balloons jon? lol
[10:20] <jonsowman> definitely
[10:20] <NigeyS> thats almost 1/2 the u.k price :@
[10:21] <KF5KWE> Well that's not including tank rental fee's
[10:21] <KF5KWE> which they may use as a way to price gouge
[10:21] <NigeyS> well over here it's roughly £80 upwards + V.A.T
[10:22] <KF5KWE> for a large tank full of He?
[10:22] <KF5KWE> or just for the He filled?
[10:23] <NigeyS> thats for at size tank, you pay extra for the monthly rental, and filler kit .. works out an additional £20
[10:23] <NigeyS> T size*
[10:23] <KF5KWE> T size is pretty big though
[10:23] <KF5KWE> I'm talking K size
[10:23] <KF5KWE> a good 50ft cubed less
[10:24] <NigeyS> think T size is about 2m^3
[10:24] <KF5KWE> must be a different alphabet
[10:24] <jonsowman> CUSF use L size
[10:24] <jonsowman> the massive ones, 9m³ iish
[10:24] <NigeyS> thats huuuge jon!
[10:25] <jonsowman> you're telling me, I have to lug it up and down the launch site :P
[10:25] <NigeyS> haha know the feeling, used to go and help my dad with the burning gear at work, those bottles of oxcy are pretty dam heavy to!
[10:26] <NigeyS> oxy*
[10:28] <KF5KWE> im trying to do more work
[10:28] <KF5KWE> but damn
[10:28] <KF5KWE> the economy sucks
[10:28] <KF5KWE> i wonder if it's because of all those countries we invade
[10:33] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/sbUUw.jpg hell yeah SDR
[10:34] <NigeyS> Darkside, that's looking pretty!
[10:35] <Darkside> its soooo sexy
[10:36] <NigeyS> what is the peak at 3ms ?
[10:36] <Darkside> its the impulse response of the channel
[10:37] <Darkside> nfi why it peaks at 3ms
[10:37] <NigeyS> ooo, looks dam good though, and a s7 signal to !
[10:37] <Darkside> not good enough
[10:37] <Darkside> SNR isn't good enough to demod the MSC
[10:38] <NigeyS> ahh MSc is an arseache
[10:38] <Darkside> main service channel
[10:38] <NigeyS> whenever i try to recieve easypal here its always the MSC that doesnt sync :(
[10:38] <Darkside> easypal?
[10:38] <Darkside> a local DRM station?
[10:38] <NigeyS> digital stuff over ssb
[10:38] <NigeyS> images
[10:38] <Darkside> ahh
[10:39] <Darkside> thats the amateur radio version of DRM, right?
[10:39] <NigeyS> fast channel is always fine, but MSC .. bleh
[10:39] <NigeyS> yups
[10:39] <Darkside> DRM in 4.5KHz...
[10:39] <Darkside> whee
[10:39] <Laurenceb> Darkside: funcube?
[10:39] <NigeyS> \o/ !
[10:39] <Darkside> Laurenceb: SDR-IQ
[10:39] <Darkside> funcube don't do HF
[10:39] <Laurenceb> is that the sound card thingy?
[10:39] <Darkside> though i'm working on it
[10:39] <Darkside> Laurenceb: haha no
[10:40] <Laurenceb> ah is ee
[10:40] <Darkside> http://www.rfspace.com/RFSPACE/SDR-IQ.html
[10:40] <Darkside> i can pull 190KHZ of bandwidth through at once with this
[10:40] <Laurenceb> oh proper sdr
[10:40] <Darkside> RX only
[10:40] <Laurenceb> really fast adc XD
[10:40] <Darkside> but meh, i have my FT-7 for TX :-)
[10:40] <NigeyS> blimey
[10:40] <Darkside> and i'm ordering a IC-7000 soon
[10:41] <Darkside> you only get 190KHz of bandwidth through USB, not hte full 64MHz
[10:41] <Laurenceb> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:chipcon_cc1020_software_define_radio
[10:41] <Darkside> theres higher spec versions that will do 1.4MHz of bandwidth over GigE
[10:41] Action: Laurenceb did that, but without a custom pcb is pricey
[10:42] <Darkside> eew 8-bit
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[10:42] <Laurenceb> heh
[10:42] <Darkside> i've been working with 16-bit receivers at uni
[10:43] <Laurenceb> well its 160khz bandwidth
[10:43] <Laurenceb> so that helps a bit
[10:43] <Darkside> heh
[10:45] <Laurenceb> idea was cheap and low power
[10:46] <Laurenceb> for e.g. uplink to a hab
[10:46] <Darkside> ahh
[10:46] <Darkside> we use DTMF over FM >_>
[10:52] <Darkside> i spy with my little eye... someone doing narrowband digital radio on 12145KHz...
[10:54] <Laurenceb> spiez
[10:56] <Darkside> haha
[10:56] <fsphil> you using an SDR on HF Darkside?
[10:56] <Darkside> yup
[10:56] <Darkside> a RFSpace SDR-IQ
[10:56] <Darkside> i'm in love with this thing
[10:57] <fsphil> oh its a dinky little thing
[10:57] <Darkside> yep
[10:57] <Darkside> USB powered
[10:57] <Darkside> and fucking awesome
[10:57] <fsphil> haha, and you get the entire HF spectrum
[11:01] <fsphil> oooh it samples the enture band, but you only get a 196 KHz chunk
[11:03] <Darkside> yes
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[11:22] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[11:22] <Elwell> oooh. 'ESA TV continues its coverage of this penultimate Shuttle mission.' All the feeds are on Atlantic Bird 1 @ 12.5degW.
[11:26] <fsphil> I wish ESA TV would stay in one place
[11:38] <Elwell> I wish I'd got round to fitting my dish...
[11:40] <fsphil> that would be quite important lol
[11:41] <fsphil> you're not missing much, all the good stuff is online anyway :)
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[12:32] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: im getting sbrkr.c:(.text+0x12): undefined reference to `_sbrk'
[12:32] <Laurenceb> when i try to use sprintf
[12:32] <Randomskk> that error always made me sad
[12:32] <Randomskk> you need to link against libc or newlib
[12:33] <Laurenceb> how?
[12:33] <Randomskk> and it will increase the size of your binary by lots
[12:33] <Randomskk> I don't know. try -lc in your linker line
[12:33] <Laurenceb> in the makefile?
[12:33] <Randomskk> uhm, but it gets more complicated
[12:33] <Randomskk> hang on a sec
[12:33] <Randomskk> https://github.com/adamgreig/Robot4/tree/master/SensorTest does it
[12:34] <Randomskk> so its makefile will do the magic
[12:34] <Randomskk> gotta brb one minute then will investigate further
[12:34] <Laurenceb> thanks
[12:40] <Randomskk> back
[12:41] <Laurenceb> i dont see anything changed
[12:41] <Laurenceb> in the makefile
[12:41] <Laurenceb> other than different linker script etc
[12:41] <Randomskk> I think the magic may have been in the linker script
[12:41] <Laurenceb> oh
[12:42] <Laurenceb> https://github.com/adamgreig/Robot4/blob/master/SensorTest/lanchon-stm32.ld
[12:42] <Randomskk> it's a much more complex/complete linker for CM3 but includes libcs3-lanchon-stm32.a
[12:42] <Laurenceb> i dont see it
[12:42] <Randomskk> the includes go to .ld in lib/
[12:42] <Laurenceb> oh
[12:42] <Randomskk> https://github.com/adamgreig/Robot4/blob/master/SensorTest/lib/lanchon-stm32-rom.ld
[12:43] <Laurenceb> eeek
[12:43] <Randomskk> yea, eeek
[12:43] <Randomskk> it's massive
[12:43] <Randomskk> but that .a file in lib is the vital one
[12:44] <Randomskk> and gets called in somehow in that GROUP(libcs3.a) or something I guess
[12:44] <Randomskk> it's a total pain, which is why I generally tried to avoid it
[12:48] <griffonbot> Received email: Steve Randall "[UKHAS] Re: A few questions about balloons"
[12:49] <KF5KWE> So do we have any examples of cut down systems that work?
[12:49] <Randomskk> several
[12:49] <KF5KWE> The few I've seen work on the ground most of the times
[12:49] <Randomskk> one easy one is nichrome wire that will get hot, melting some hot glue in half that was holding the load line together
[12:50] <griffonbot> Received email: Jon Sowman "Re: [UKHAS] Re: A few questions about balloons"
[12:50] <Randomskk> another is some plastic cord as part of the load line which gets wrapped around a power resistor, again melting the cord
[12:50] <Darkside> ELECTRIC SCISSORS
[12:50] <Randomskk> a third is to use an e-match and black powder, embedded in epoxy, with the load line expoxied in on both ends - lighting the match blows the epoxy apart, separating the load line
[12:50] <KF5KWE> a solenoid with blade?
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[12:51] <Darkside> depending what line you use, it might melt
[12:51] <Darkside> i think the line we use is meltable
[12:51] <KF5KWE> I'd like a cutdown system but no idea what to start and how much more it might cost
[12:51] <Randomskk> KF5KWE: I've never seen a solenoid with a blade and would perhaps question whether you could reliably get a clean cut
[12:51] <Randomskk> without just fraying
[12:51] <Randomskk> still it should work as well at altitude as on the ground, so it's easy to test
[12:52] <Darkside> cutdown is overrated :P
[12:52] <KF5KWE> just curious, as I said, the few i've seen work on ground and only half the time in the air
[12:52] <Darkside> then again, you guys don't have continents as big as us :P
[12:52] <Randomskk> we've found pyrotechnic cutdowns work really reliably
[12:52] <Randomskk> and we had some serious reliability concerns
[12:52] <Randomskk> or rather, reliability was a serious concern :)
[12:53] <eroomde> I don't recall a non-working cutdown on any of the last 40 or so flights i've been involved with
[12:53] <Laurenceb> hmm this isnt working
[12:53] <eroomde> it seems to be a pretty solved problem
[12:53] <Laurenceb> cannot open linker script file lanchon-stm32-names.inc: No such file or directory
[12:54] <Laurenceb> i had to change INCLUDE "lib/lanchon-stm32-rom.ld"
[12:54] <KF5KWE> Ok, so is your cutdown initiated at the base or from the payload?
[12:54] <Laurenceb> in the lanchon-stm32.ld
[12:54] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: you may also need to change the part where it includes -names then
[12:54] <fsphil> prediction for sunday hadie:3 flight still too near the city and coast line, will likely not happen this weekend. meh stupid wind :)
[12:54] <Laurenceb> Randosmkk: in the makefile?
[12:55] <Randomskk> possibly in the -rom linker script
[12:55] <Randomskk> grep for it I guess
[12:55] <Laurenceb> hmm maybe i need your makefile
[12:55] <eroomde> i re-wrote grep in python yesterday before realising i could just use grep
[12:55] <eroomde> total thinking fail
[12:55] <jonsowman> lol
[12:56] <Randomskk> unix is pretty great
[12:56] <Randomskk> right now python is slightly in my bad books because this stupid algorithm should not be doing this stupid thing
[12:56] <Randomskk> and it's undoubtably my fault but ugh
[12:56] <Randomskk> all I'm doing is using tuples instead of numpy arrays, everything else is identical, but accuracy is being truncated to integer somewhere
[12:56] <Laurenceb> aha works
[12:56] <Laurenceb> XD
[12:56] <eroomde> i had to get the AEROS lines from listen/view.php and started writing things to split it at the new lines, regex each element, collate into a new list of strings, join together with new lines and write to a new file.
[12:56] <Laurenceb> or rather compiles
[12:57] <Randomskk> eroomde: couldn't you have just hit up the habitat couchdb/
[12:57] <eroomde> then about 4 mins later on the loo realised i had just spend 15 minutes doing grep AEROS > blah.txt
[12:57] <Randomskk> heh
[12:58] <eroomde> i should have just got it from couch yes :)
[12:58] <Laurenceb> oh shit
[12:58] <Laurenceb> 30KB O_o
[12:58] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: yea exactly
[12:59] <Laurenceb> hmm id better grab my avr printf functions
[12:59] <Laurenceb> http://ukhas.org.uk/code:rprintf
[13:00] <Laurenceb> ha
[13:00] <Laurenceb> double place = 1000000000000000.0;
[13:00] <Laurenceb>
[13:00] <Laurenceb> yeah thats kind of bad
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[13:02] <Randomskk> eroomde: delicious parsed json
[13:02] <Randomskk> http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/_design/habitat/_view/all_flight_info?key=%22164f14dfba90fbcf214e594082eb9da3%22
[13:02] <Laurenceb> theres got to be a more sane way to do that
[13:03] <Laurenceb> maybe start with 10^0 and work in either direction
[13:04] <Laurenceb> only characters would have to be buffered like that
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[13:08] <Laurenceb> no - start with the lsb and work in reverse
[13:08] <Laurenceb> *lsf
[13:09] <Laurenceb> they ask the person reading the data to mentally reverse the order XD
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[13:13] <KF5KWE> UK disallowed use of ham radio in the air?
[13:13] <Randomskk> yes
[13:13] <Darkside> you can't jump in the air and transmit in the UK :P
[13:14] <KF5KWE> harsh....
[13:15] <KF5KWE> aprs is quite useful over the pond
[13:15] <W0OTM> Hello World
[13:16] <KF5KWE> Did you read that?
[13:16] <KF5KWE> They can't use aprs for balloons
[13:16] <KF5KWE> !!!
[13:16] <eroomde> correct
[13:16] <Darkside> all the UK people are stuck with ISM band stuff
[13:16] <Darkside> and 10mW
[13:16] <eroomde> we have to rely on our own infrastructure
[13:16] <eroomde> hence things like spacenear.us and the modified fl-digi
[13:16] <KF5KWE> APRS isn't like, government operated or anything...it's amature run
[13:17] <Darkside> in AUS, we've done HF, APRS, though we primarily use the same stuff as the UK guys use
[13:17] <Darkside> just on different frequencies
[13:17] <KF5KWE> Ah
[13:17] <KF5KWE> Pretty cool I guess
[13:17] <KF5KWE> More challenge I can certainly see the fun in that
[13:17] <KF5KWE> More expensive I'd imagine though, don't like that
[13:17] <Darkside> and spacenear.us is better than APRS
[13:17] <eroomde> would be nice to have apris as a backup for sure
[13:18] <eroomde> but it has meant that people are really doing some interesting things to see what you can do with 10mW
[13:18] <jonsowman> I don't necessarily think ISM is more expensive than aprs
[13:18] <eroomde> KF5KWE: not at all more expensive - why would you think so?>
[13:18] <jonsowman> heh
[13:18] <fsphil> it's quite amazing what can be done with 10mW
[13:18] <eroomde> it's a tiny little 10mW fm module that most people use
[13:18] <Randomskk> in fact I'd think it's a lot cheaper
[13:18] <eroomde> yes i agree
[13:18] <eroomde> much cheaper
[13:18] <KF5KWE> with aprs here, you dont even need a radio to receive with, the system is so widespread
[13:19] <eroomde> true, but then the distributed listener has got that way now
[13:19] <Darkside> KF5KWE: it makes the payload more complex though
[13:19] <KF5KWE> plus you dont need a cellphone
[13:19] <Randomskk> same could fairly reliably be said of what we've got, all things considered
[13:19] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: does this looks sane? http://pastebin.com/mnV8SR9b
[13:19] <Randomskk> we don't need a cellphone either :P
[13:19] <eroomde> in that one could quite easily launch and rely on the other kind folks to pick it up
[13:19] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: what part?
[13:19] <Darkside> KF5KWE: we could use APRS too, but we prefer to rely on our own hardware
[13:19] <W0OTM> Darkside: how do you figure spacenear.us is "better" than APRS?
[13:19] <KF5KWE> well from what I can tell, 10mw is hard to pick up from ground level
[13:19] <eroomde> you'd have to give them a heads-up though i guess, it's certainly not an automatical, always-on system
[13:19] <Laurenceb> and http://pastebin.com/W7i45Eta
[13:19] <Darkside> W0OTM: live landing predictions is nice :-)
[13:20] <Laurenceb> the clk config and alt function remapping
[13:20] <Darkside> as an interface i mean
[13:20] <fsphil> APRS coverage in N.Ireland is almost zero except near the cities - my radio has been listening on the APRS frequency for two days now, and has received about 10 packets
[13:20] <eroomde> yes, comparing aprs and spacenear.us should throw a type error
[13:20] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: I've never tried remapping, the rest looks fine
[13:20] <KF5KWE> that's more of an interface, aprs is just a system
[13:20] <Laurenceb> thanks
[13:20] <Darkside> yeah
[13:20] <KF5KWE> someone could write their own aprs software that does landing predictions based on wind data as well
[13:20] <Darkside> esp in austraia, the balloon will see the APRS network in teh air, but as soon as its landed, we're stuffed
[13:21] <eroomde> KF5KWE: it would be easy
[13:21] <KF5KWE> yeah it would
[13:21] <Darkside> we prefer to use our own systems (as to not clog up the APRS network too), and have backup direction finding gear
[13:21] <eroomde> the landing prediciton software is not tied to any system, you just give it a set of starting conditions (positions and velocities) and it does the rest
[13:21] <Darkside> eroomde: yep
[13:21] <Darkside> we have our own system we use in the cars, completely offline
[13:21] <KF5KWE> the aprs system in my area is pretty quiet so I'm not that worried in that regard
[13:22] <KF5KWE> Darkside, as do most that use aprs
[13:22] <Darkside> the only 'online' part of that system is getting the wind data at the start of the flight
[13:22] <eroomde> infact the GPSL list is right now discussing how to best to aprs
[13:22] <W0OTM> Darkside: this idea of "clogging" the network if crap.
[13:22] <W0OTM> APRS network is to be used
[13:22] <KF5KWE> that's what it's for
[13:22] <W0OTM> exactly!
[13:22] <eroomde> because they are concerned by 'clogging' (the word they use in fact W0OTM) the aprs network
[13:22] <KF5KWE> it's not a system for professionals or businessed to use
[13:23] <Darkside> W0OTM: we send updates every second, and when the balloon is at apogee, we get into the APRS network in neighbouring states
[13:23] <KF5KWE> it's governed by the same rules as ham radio
[13:23] <W0OTM> if everyone was afraid of clogging the network, no one would use it
[13:23] <Darkside> then they start seeing a shitload of traffic :P
[13:23] <eroomde> they are drawing up good practice on what aprs WIDE settings to use in different altitude bands to try and play nice with everyone else
[13:23] Action: jkominar will be tracking his balloon with APRS near Waterloo, ON, Canada next month hopefully.
[13:23] <Darkside> again, we have used APRS, we were just careful about it
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> Why every second?
[13:24] <Darkside> SpeedEvil: i'm talking about our normal payload
[13:24] <Darkside> APRS was less
[13:24] <fsphil> APRS also not so good for image transfer :)
[13:24] <Darkside> fsphil: hehe
[13:24] <eroomde> The discussion on the gpsl list seemed to have converged on transmitting a packet not more than once per minute
[13:24] <Darkside> fsphil: we have ATV on the way
[13:24] <fsphil> I'm really looking forward to that DarkCow
[13:24] <Darkside> i have the transmitters sitting on my desk
[13:24] <fsphil> er, Darkside
[13:24] <Darkside> hahah
[13:25] <fsphil> (sorry DarkCow)
[13:25] <Darkside> fsphil: we'll try and do live launch and landing at least
[13:25] <DarkCow> np
[13:25] <Darkside> path loss will mean we might not be able to get it at apogee
[13:25] <fsphil> try and make it a weekend :) I'll stay up late for that one
[13:25] <Darkside> the link budget isextremely tight
[13:25] <W0OTM> ***** I really like the fact that we can have a discussion about HAB topic here. Thank you! Love being apart of this community! ****
[13:25] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: any idea why the first i2c wait is for while(!I2C_CheckEvent(I2C1, I2C_EVENT_MASTER_TRANSMITTER_MODE_SELECTED));
[13:26] <Laurenceb> not byte_transmitted
[13:26] <Randomskk> not off the top of my head
[13:26] <KF5KWE> gotta love hobbiest, passionate and most of the time knowledgable
[13:26] <Randomskk> there may have been a reason for it
[13:26] <eroomde> W0OTM: lol, you should get a keyboard shortcut for that disclaimer :p
[13:26] <W0OTM> eroomde: LOL
[13:27] <W0OTM> im serious though, there are too many other channels that once you start a discussion (debate), people get mad....I like that we are open to different ideas and opinions here
[13:27] Action: W0OTM buys a round for the whole room
[13:28] <eroomde> W0OTM: are you on the gpsl mailing list?
[13:28] <eroomde> it's probably an interesting thread to listen in to
[13:28] <W0OTM> dunno, dont think dso
[13:28] <W0OTM> so
[13:28] <Darkside> W0OTM: speaking of APRS
[13:28] <Darkside> we have a digipeater in the works
[13:28] <Darkside> :D
[13:28] <eroomde> I think their plan was to stick a one-page guide of recommendations on how to be a nice citizen with APRS - as they do get a lot of e-moans from people complaining that the balloons can hit about 50 i-gates at once
[13:29] <Darkside> if we fly a digipeater, we can have redundant data comms between cars over long distances
[13:30] <W0OTM> eroomde: ok, so seriously tell me how thats a BAD thing? whats the REAL problem with that?
[13:34] <eroomde> W0OTM: not being able to use it, i am not too interested in getting involved. so, here's the original post of the current thread, though the issue comes up often
[13:34] <eroomde> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GPSL/message/9800
[13:35] <W0OTM> I agree with the path issue
[13:36] <W0OTM> but I don't see the issue with transmitting every 10 sec, or even 5 sec. If you have your path configured correctly, who cares if you hit 50 igates at 50K feet.
[13:38] <eroomde> worth an email to the list I guess!
[13:39] <Dan-K2VOL> if you're in an area with one igate W0OTM, and someone else's balloon is transmitting every 1 second at higher power than yours, YOU will care
[13:39] <eroomde> they'll be the ones encouraging its adoption among the US arhab crowd
[13:40] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: higher power? who is running high power in a balloon?
[13:40] <Dan-K2VOL> 8 watts is higher power than 300 milliwatts
[13:40] <Dan-K2VOL> Both of those power levels have been available in small aprs transmitters from Byonics recently
[13:42] <W0OTM> well, I fly 300mW so I can discard that arguement
[13:42] <W0OTM> if my 300mW jams out a ground based station, they need to get a new radio!
[13:43] <eroomde> rmember you have line of sight on a balloon
[13:43] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM that's fairly self-centered, wouldn't you say?
[13:43] <Dan-K2VOL> Not too nice
[13:43] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: nice? its being honest
[13:44] <eroomde> well, the solution they are discussing allows two people of W0OTM's temperament to fly in the air at the same time, rather than just one
[13:44] <eroomde> so it's the better solution, right?
[13:44] <Dan-K2VOL> heh sounds so
[13:45] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: maybe we should be pushing power limits for airborne craft instead of making up dumb rules for APRS usage
[13:45] <eroomde> the solution to problems is almost never to shout louder
[13:45] <eroomde> that's true both literally and as a metaphor
[13:45] <Dan-K2VOL> why do you care about rules?
[13:45] <W0OTM> eroomde: I agree
[13:46] <Randomskk> W0OTM: then why are you saying people with weak ground radios should just get a more powerful radio?
[13:46] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: I do care about "rules", I don't so much care about "gentlemens agreements"
[13:46] <Dan-K2VOL> don't like being a gentleman?
[13:47] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: didn't say that, but that doesnt mean I have to agree with previous "
[13:47] <W0OTM> previous gentlemen agreeemnts
[13:47] <NigeyS> i say ... cake! :)
[13:48] <W0OTM> NigeyS: COOKIES!
[13:48] <NigeyS> and milk!
[13:48] <W0OTM> NigeyS: LOL
[13:48] <NigeyS> hm we have a helicopter over here right now .. must bo only a few hundred feet and its getting very bloody annoying! :@
[13:49] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: I dont blindly follow other people gentlemens agreements.
[13:49] <fsphil> urg- used to get that all the time here NigeyS. no fun at all
[13:49] <NigeyS> its bloody annoying, its not the police helicopter, looks like its got some cameras on it though
[13:50] <fsphil> wave to it, we might see you in the news later :)
[13:50] <NigeyS> lols!
[13:50] <eroomde> W0OTM: what if, instead of blindly, you grok that they enable a system whereby more people can use the system at once without interfering with each other?
[13:50] <NigeyS> if you see a guy from cardiff on the news raking the soil, you know it was me!
[13:51] <eroomde> i don't think any advocacy of the system involves blind following, it simply identifies a problem and proposes a solution to it
[13:51] <eroomde> i'm sure they'd welcome your voice to the debate if you saw a better way of solving the problem
[13:51] <W0OTM> anywho, Dan-K2VOL, how are things goings in your world?
[13:51] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: whats on your bench now?
[13:52] <Darkside> http://www.youtube.com/user/spiitfir322#p/a/u/0/oSWsT95UVuI
[13:54] <W0OTM> Darkside: thats very cool
[13:55] <W0OTM> I am assuming the camera is making the sky look blacker that is really is
[13:55] <W0OTM> its not that black at ~30K feet
[13:56] <KF5KWE> they dont look like they are at 30k feet
[13:56] <KF5KWE> just based on what it looked like the times I've flown
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[14:01] <W0OTM> KF5KWE: where do you think they are at?
[14:02] <KF5KWE> no clue, but it just looks like too much room to the clouds
[14:05] <NigeyS> eroomde, where would i get 1KM of braided cord ?
[14:06] <KF5KWE> the horses mouth
[14:06] <eroomde> NigeyS: eg ~2mm nylon for payload lines?
[14:07] <NigeyS> yup, or even 1mm
[14:07] <eroomde> a marine chandlery is why i got ours
[14:07] <SamSilver> fishing shop?
[14:07] <eroomde> though 1km continuous might be a bit long
[14:07] <eroomde> i think i bought 250m reels
[14:07] <eroomde> where*
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> ebay!
[14:07] <KF5KWE> yay ebay
[14:07] <NigeyS> ahh okies, i'll have a scout around :D !
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Power-Pro-Spectra-Fiber-Braid-Fishing-Line-15lb-300-yd-/330378543864?pt=UK_SportingGoods_FishingAcces_RL&hash=item4cec1882f8 forex
[14:09] <KF5KWE> what would you search for on ebay if i may pry
[14:10] <Randomskk> woo! I speeded up my algorithm 667%
[14:10] <NigeyS> oo SpeedEvil thanks dude
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SPECTRA-EXTREME-Braid-Fishing-Line-1000m-20LB-Blue-B-/320551202353?pt=UK_SportingGoods_FishingAcces_RL&hash=item4aa2572e31
[14:11] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM, sorry, got pulled away from the desk at work ehre
[14:11] <NigeyS> SpeedEvil, that's more like it
[14:11] <Randomskk> now it's only 9200% slower than the actual utility
[14:11] <NigeyS> hope i dont chop someones head off with it mind lol
[14:12] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: NP, no biggie
[14:12] <Dan-K2VOL> Working on an extremely lightweight steerable mirror drive for balloons
[14:12] <Dan-K2VOL> Using ~30 gauge piano wire for most of the structure, and aluminized mylar for the sun reflector
[14:13] <Dan-K2VOL> and wristwatch drive motors to move the whole thing
[14:13] <SpeedEvil> sun reflector - why?
[14:13] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: whats the goal?
[14:13] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: ah grand - is this the thing you discussed a bit back?
[14:13] <SpeedEvil> I found a nice sun reflector that will last decades outside, and have a reflectance of 95%
[14:13] <Dan-K2VOL> Likely so eroomde
[14:13] <SpeedEvil> 20 quid/m^2
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M/en_GB/electronics/home/productsandservices/products/ProductNavigator/TapeAdhesives/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20KHO6_nid=8NBTLH65Q6beL4S7689SR8gl
[14:14] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM SpeedEvil the goal is to get more power from fewer panels that face straight up on a very long duration balloon
[14:14] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[14:14] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: for solar power?
[14:15] <Dan-K2VOL> Weight must be kept at an extreme minimum
[14:15] <Dan-K2VOL> Yes
[14:15] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: gotcha
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> I question how far you can go before melting the panel.
[14:15] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM so I'm looking to see if a mechanism to aim a reflector can be built that's lighter than a mechanism to aim a panel
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> nmp-techval-reports.jpl.nasa.gov/DS1/Scarlet_Integrated_Report.pdf
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL:
[14:17] juxta (~juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[14:17] <W0OTM> I kinda wish I was doing a full flight tonight. The winds are really favorable!
[14:18] <eroomde> SpeedEvila bit poo here
[14:18] <eroomde> i wanted to be flying the blimp this week
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> :/
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> It's nice and sunny at the moment.
[14:18] <eroomde> sorry, that got mangled
[14:18] <Dan-K2VOL> interesting speedevil
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> My solar system is about to boil over.
[14:18] <eroomde> that was meant for W0OTM
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> (40l container of water, heated from ~10C this morning.)
[14:19] <eroomde> that's impressive - a home-build?
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Sort-of.
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> I got the solar collector for ~300 off ebay.
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> 18*54mm*1800mm tubes.
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> I'm sorting out the rest.
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> And trying to avoid being silly.
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> Being silly = welding up a 150l thermos.
[14:20] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM we're going to try to take advantage of the high power density of lipo batteries, on the advice of the UKHASers, and the data that shows that they will die at night, but come back in the morning
[14:20] <Dan-K2VOL> And just take the loss of data at night
[14:21] <KF5KWE> I'm having trouble finding any specific info on nylon line off ebay
[14:21] <KF5KWE> like it's diameter and breaking force
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> Look at several auctions.
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> That spectra line for example is 0.16mm in diameter.
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> But it's braided - which will mean the effective diameter is somwehre like 0.12mm
[14:22] <KF5KWE> could i probably get kite line?
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> the density is ~1400kg/m^3
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> Or so.
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> Similar for nylon.
[14:23] <KF5KWE> http://cgi.ebay.com/Braided-Kite-String-50-lb-Test-150-ft-Dacron-Polyester-/220669544490?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3360ee082a#ht_1465wt_906
[14:27] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: got my 36" balloons in yesturday
[14:28] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: they weigh 37g
[14:28] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: and underfilled will have a necklift of 200g each
[14:28] <Dan-K2VOL> Nice
[14:29] <Dan-K2VOL> KF5KWE you can't rely on specs for any that we've ever tested, you simply have to test it yourself
[14:29] <Dan-K2VOL> or go on the word of someone else that's done so
[14:29] <KF5KWE> thats kinda why im asking
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> A lot of people choose to take a lax interpretation of the rule to mean 50lbs applied at the speed of an airliner
[14:30] <eroomde> May I humby second Dan's point
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm not one of those people, but no one has ever gotten in trouble
[14:30] <eroomde> a lot of specs seem to only have a loose affiliation in reality, especially when you do weird thing to get like take them into a -50 celcius near vacuum
[14:31] <KF5KWE> right well..
[14:31] <KF5KWE> im open to suggested brands/etc
[14:32] <Dan-K2VOL> KF5KWE we tested a lot of lines, and there's a lot of variation from one test to the next of the same stuff off the same spool. Often the type of knot you tie affects it's breaking strength as well
[14:32] <Dan-K2VOL> We've given up on relying on a breaking line entirely here at White Star and are using a small mechanical spring-release mechanism that is very reliable
[14:33] <KF5KWE> cool
[14:34] <KF5KWE> WELL
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> there's a green braided polyethylene line at walmart that we've used that seems most reliable, but we didn't test it below the 65lb test variety, try some of the ~30lb test stuff
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> If you want a guess
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> It's fishing line
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> Comes in a yellow and green box, it's the most expensive model they sell
[14:35] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd only put a little length of it in your load line, it would slice you up if you made the whole length out of fishing line
[14:35] <KF5KWE> So then what would you use as your load line?
[14:38] <KF5KWE> Just some strong nylon line?
[14:46] <eroomde> Just incase Dan's afk, i think my understanding from their blog was that they use just plenty-strong-enough nylon line and have a specific load-failure mechanism
[14:49] <Dan-K2VOL> Thank you eroomde, I was afk, will try to set that if pulled away in the future
[14:50] <Dan-K2VOL> but yes, that's what we do, use 1/8 to 1/4" braided nylon
[14:50] <Dan-K2VOL> Don't use twisted
[14:50] <Dan-K2VOL> if you can avoid it
[14:51] <Dan-K2VOL> I can't remember why, but I'm sure googling the properties of braided nylon vs twisted will illuminate why that might be
[14:56] <Elwell> one untwists under load?
[15:13] Nick change: danielsaul_alt -> danielsaul
[15:17] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: I enjoyed your SpeedBall-1 peek video
[15:17] <eroomde> hadn't seen it until just now
[15:17] kd0mto (~dago@209.251.91.210) joined #highaltitude.
[15:18] <eroomde> greetings kd0mto
[15:19] <kd0mto> helo
[15:19] <kd0mto> *hello
[15:19] <eroomde> all well?
[15:20] <kd0mto> kinda, still going through growing pains with my new job.
[15:20] <kd0mto> good problems to have honestly.
[15:20] <eroomde> good pains or bad ones?
[15:20] <eroomde> ah right
[15:20] <eroomde> yeah
[15:21] <kd0mto> this training I'm doing is extremely boring.
[15:21] <Dan-K2VOL> Eroomde cool, thanks!
[15:21] <eroomde> kd0mto: what is it, if you don't mind me asking?
[15:22] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm getting to review a product warranty for complying with laws today, it's riveting stuff& The part of R&D you rarely think about
[15:22] <kd0mto> Siemens PLM software.
[15:22] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: it's very good that you take the time to pause and explain things clearly and well, which I always find especially difficult to do when deeply involved with something - to remember what someone new to your project would be wondering
[15:24] <eroomde> kd0mto: cool. you might have some insights to share here about managing larger projects
[15:25] <eroomde> people like Dan-K2VOL are doing some really cool things that are beyond the scope and ambition of normal high altitude ballooning, and it always seems to present challenges outside the purely technical
[15:26] cuddykid (~acudworth@78.145.195.228) joined #highaltitude.
[15:30] Action: kd0mto nods
[15:31] <eroomde> do you have a hab project on the go kd0mto?
[15:31] <eroomde> i don't wish to come across all Lady Bracknall, just interested :)
[15:32] <KF5KWE> hello kd0mto
[15:33] <kd0mto> eroomde: Not anymore, I used to work with a group on campus but.... I'm not longer at that university.
[15:33] <kd0mto> www.sscl.iastate.edu
[15:33] <kd0mto> Over 120 flights.
[15:33] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: ping
[15:33] <Randomskk> pong
[15:34] <eroomde> oh. quite serious then :)
[15:34] <kd0mto> Mind you, I was involved in like.... 10 at the most. Still fun though.
[15:34] <Laurenceb> my i2c hangs :/
[15:34] <Randomskk> :( presumably waiting for one of the conditions
[15:34] <Randomskk> can you scope it or LA it or anything?
[15:34] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/phRmGrYK
[15:35] <Laurenceb> seems to be waiting for start to complete
[15:35] <eroomde> kd0mto: and are you keen to carry on in your now presumably post-grad life?
[15:35] <Laurenceb> like theres no clock or something
[15:35] <Dan-K2VOL> Eroomde thank you for the kind words!
[15:35] <Laurenceb> hangs at line 56
[15:35] <Laurenceb> thats just writing to the i2c
[15:35] <Randomskk> mag_init's where?
[15:36] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/X854RPAn
[15:36] <kd0mto> eroomde: We'll see, I'm always messing around with technology and I like messing around with packet radio and modem stuff.
[15:36] <kd0mto> http://home.engineering.iastate.edu/~static09 take a look at the projects page.
[15:37] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: see if appropriate LED toggling can inform you of how far into mag_init it gets?
[15:37] <Laurenceb> k
[15:38] <eroomde> kd0mto: looks awesome
[15:39] <eroomde> i'm just having a read of your afsk on dsPIC implementation
[15:40] <kd0mto> Yeah... that's incomplete right now
[15:41] <kd0mto> I plan on working on a really low power version of that for sending up a swarm of balloons at some point.
[15:41] <eroomde> cool
[15:41] <eroomde> how did you find dsPIC development?
[15:41] <eroomde> the hardware looks pretty sweet
[15:42] <kd0mto> oh, the lab was pushing it.
[15:42] <eroomde> that presumably took care of the less sweet bit - proprietary dev toolchain
[15:43] <kd0mto> yup
[15:43] <kd0mto> well... I was writing my own. Still needs a lot of work.
[15:43] <eroomde> looks like fun though
[15:44] <kd0mto> yeah, I need to rewrite my modeling software to use python instead of matlab.
[15:44] <kd0mto> Once it's done there, I can use that for testing algorithms before writing them in C
[15:44] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: seems i2c isnt getting past the start
[15:44] <kd0mto> and... python is free vs. matlab
[15:44] <Randomskk> not sure if it's waiting for the other device to do something or what
[15:44] <eroomde> well, we can now be friends
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[15:44] <Randomskk> kd0mto: how're you finding python for that kind of stuff?
[15:44] <Randomskk> I've been playing with a lot of numpy recently
[15:44] <eroomde> anyone who takes time to port matlab to python gets my vote
[15:44] <kd0mto> Randomskk: Really easy.
[15:45] <eroomde> i've been doing a lot of that myself recently
[15:45] <Randomskk> it's a lot of fun
[15:45] <eroomde> especially an FSK and BPSK decoder i've been working on
[15:45] <eroomde> numpy is great
[15:45] <Randomskk> my main issue is that loops are still very slow :P
[15:45] <kd0mto> eroomde: I have a python to matlab bridge, and vice versa. But yeah... full rewrite coming up for my stuff.
[15:45] <eroomde> i've been having a really happy time hacking recently
[15:45] <jonsowman> wish I could say the same
[15:45] <kd0mto> PSK is another project I'll be working on in Python... again .
[15:46] <jonsowman> unfortunately I've been calculating dew point temperatures in air con units and other things like that
[15:46] <eroomde> jonsowman: :p
[15:46] <jonsowman> :\
[15:46] <eroomde> ah yeah, 2nd year thermodynamics
[15:46] <eroomde> btw that was the worst exam of my life
[15:46] <eroomde> i've never had one go so bad
[15:46] <jonsowman> :X
[15:46] <eroomde> but that gave me comfort - it was all uphill from there
[15:46] <jonsowman> haha
[15:47] <jonsowman> and you did fine in the end, so who cares :)
[15:47] <eroomde> zackly
[15:47] <eroomde> it's a bit like GCSEs
[15:47] <eroomde> you wonder why you got so stressed about it
[15:47] <jonsowman> haha
[15:47] <eroomde> kd0mto: i think on this list people seem to fall into avr or arm camps
[15:47] Action: kd0mto trying to survive training today
[15:48] <Randomskk> eroomde: or both!
[15:48] <eroomde> there's a strong arduino following
[15:48] Action: Randomskk is torn between an AVR and an ARM for this current thing
[15:48] <kd0mto> eroomde: I'm PIC and Atmel agnostic.
[15:48] <Randomskk> atmel do this part with a power stage control peripheral that would make bldc control a walk in the park
[15:48] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: APB1 not clocked?
[15:48] <kd0mto> PIC32 > than anything else < 100 MHz at 32bit
[15:48] <Randomskk> but for less money in a smaller package, ST do an ARM that runs at several times the clock speed and has super cool peripherals
[15:48] <eroomde> Randomskk jonsowman : do you guys use arduino to prog arduino on 'buntu or do you use eclipse?
[15:48] <Randomskk> eroomde: arduino, or a makefile
[15:49] <jonsowman> ditto
[15:49] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: could be
[15:49] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: forgetting to clock peripherals was a big part of my sad times
[15:49] <Laurenceb> everything else is on apb2
[15:49] <eroomde> kd0mto: PIC32s are MIPS right?
[15:49] <Laurenceb> ill check how it works
[15:49] <kd0mto> eroomde: yes
[15:49] <eroomde> cool
[15:50] <eroomde> i learnt the instruction set in a 100% theoretical computer architecture course
[15:50] <eroomde> never used it ForRealz tho
[15:50] <kd0mto> cool, yeah they're easy to make
[15:50] <kd0mto> I've written parts of a MIPS processor before during one of my internships. It was fun.
[15:50] <eroomde> i can imagine!
[15:50] <eroomde> i've never really done any logic design
[15:50] <eroomde> i'd love to
[15:51] <eroomde> or at least, nothing beyond a dodgy spi bus or some other toy problem
[15:51] <kd0mto> download that fedora electronics workbench, and get a book. You'll be able to crank out your own you can upload to an FPGA in no time.
[15:51] <eroomde> yep, super keen to play with fpga's
[15:52] <eroomde> so do you have a recommendation for fpga hardware dev?
[15:52] <fsphil> fpgas look great, but mind bending
[15:52] <eroomde> manufacturer, boards, dev environments etc
[15:52] <Randomskk> I wanna get my spartan 3e dev board up and running :(
[15:52] <KF5KWE> almost done with my aprs modem, resumed work later than i wanted due to a god aweful nite of sleep
[15:52] <Randomskk> been sitting here for like two years now
[15:52] <Randomskk> programming the thing is a bit of a pain
[15:53] <eroomde> KF5KWE: what's time is it at your QTH?
[15:53] <kd0mto> eroomde: Alterra's are good and cheap. Start there. Xilinx is nicer hardware but the dev tools are insanely expensive and don't have enough support. Hobbyists are almost all forced used the Altera Cyclone series.
[15:54] <eroomde> Randomskk: could be a good contender for the Adam and Ed Super-resolution DF rig
[15:54] <kd0mto> eroomde: NEOII is an open source processor that you can upload, and even program in C using eclipse that will make code to run on them.
[15:54] <Randomskk> only thing I would say is that xilinx does have their free web pack which runs on linux and provides a gui and cli tools for compiling (or rather their odd equivilant)
[15:54] <KF5KWE> eroomde, almost 11 :(
[15:54] <Randomskk> I have http://www.sparkfun.com/products/8458
[15:54] <eroomde> am?
[15:54] <KF5KWE> yes
[15:55] <Randomskk> but admittedly haven't actually programmed it owing mostly to cables being annoying
[15:55] <eroomde> Randomskk: cool
[15:55] <Randomskk> one of my projects is hacking an ftdi chip to generate spi signals that will program the onboard flash prom, which can then program the fpga over jtag
[15:55] <Randomskk> theoretically my jtag dongle can be used to program the thing under openocd, but openocd is a pain
[15:55] <eroomde> packets
[15:55] <eroomde> packetswhoa
[15:55] <Randomskk> theoretically I can use a parallel port too, though I didn't have one when I was playing
[15:56] <Randomskk> however it has a ungodly number of pins and many gates
[15:56] <eroomde> Randomskk: I'm guessing a modest FPGA could do the data packagaing to turn the (say) 8 ADC+Downconverter front-ends into UDP
[15:56] <Randomskk> and that board includes a prom and 50mhz oscillator so is pretty neat
[15:56] <Randomskk> yea, I imagine so
[15:56] <Randomskk> then pump them over gigabit ethernet or something. I guess that could be a tricky part
[15:57] <eroomde> yeah
[15:57] <Randomskk> you can get ip cores for it I think, but integrating it into the fpga...
[15:57] <eroomde> well, UDP + MagJack?
[15:57] <eroomde> easy peasy!
[15:57] <Randomskk> hardware wise it's easy :P
[15:57] <eroomde> :D
[15:57] <eroomde> I'll go halves with you on 10 x 5cm x 5cm seeedstudio pcbs
[15:57] <Randomskk> haha that's what
[15:57] <eroomde> for a prototype front-end
[15:57] <Randomskk> £3 each or something
[15:57] <Randomskk> seeed are so cheap these days
[15:58] <Randomskk> it's crazy
[15:58] <eroomde> something like that :)
[15:58] <Randomskk> how would you downconvert?
[15:58] <Randomskk> just get one of those radio ICs?
[15:58] <eroomde> yeah
[15:58] <eroomde> hang on let me find a ref
[16:00] <kd0mto> stupid question, why is there interest in FPGA's in high altitude ballooning? They are too power hungry for the application for the most part.
[16:01] <Randomskk> kd0mto: in this case we're interested in using one to do MUSIC for super resolution direction finding of balloon signals, from a ground station
[16:01] <Randomskk> or potentially from a balloon
[16:01] <Randomskk> power's not that big an issue, you can always add more batteries :P
[16:01] <eroomde> kd0mto: yep, not balloon specific, just enjoying rf
[16:01] <eroomde> kd0mto: MUSIC is the name of a really sexy algorithm
[16:02] <eroomde> so you have an array of antennas
[16:02] <Randomskk> eroomde: with MUSIC does the decomposition actually give you the direction vectors? all I can find refers to the decomposition providing the null space perpendicular to signal space, then you have to locate vectors in signal space by brute force searching
[16:02] <Randomskk> on the other hand I've struggled to find many useful references
[16:02] <Laurenceb> Randomskk
[16:03] <Laurenceb> whats the hclk?
[16:03] <kd0mto> Ok, just curious
[16:03] <Randomskk> uhm
[16:03] <Randomskk> I can't actually remember :/
[16:03] <kd0mto> hey, check out my robot http://home.engineering.iastate.edu/~static09/Files/Robots/terrorDrone1/100_6214.JPG
[16:03] <Laurenceb> RCC_PCLK1Config(RCC_HCLK_Div2);
[16:03] <eroomde> so i'm not explicity sure about music, but if you do an eigen decomposition of the covariance matrix, you get a bunch of eigenvalues/vectors right?
[16:03] <Randomskk> I think it's one of the internal clocks driven by the PLL
[16:03] <Laurenceb> is intreaging me
[16:03] <Randomskk> eroomde: yea
[16:03] <eroomde> then when you convolve those with the complex manifold of the array, you get actual vectors
[16:03] <Randomskk> right, but I'm not sure that the eigenvectors represent signal directions
[16:04] <Laurenceb> but aiui apb1 is clocked at 8mhz at startup
[16:04] <eroomde> no they don't
[16:04] <Randomskk> eroomde: I mean, even before the complex manifold
[16:04] <eroomde> cos the covarience matrix has no knowledge of the array shape
[16:05] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: I think apb1 is clocked to 8mhz before the pll sets up hclk, once hclk is ready and running fast from the pll it can then be piped to abp1/2
[16:05] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:05] <Laurenceb> so apb1 is running fine for me
[16:05] <Laurenceb> as i am on hsi
[16:05] <Laurenceb> as i have no 12mhz xtals
[16:05] <Randomskk> eroomde: curiously I also find references to MUSIC used for frequency detection, like DTMF tones
[16:05] <Laurenceb> hmf :(
[16:05] <Randomskk> which could potentially be used for FSK demodulation
[16:06] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: hsi should still be able to PLL up to 72mhz hclk
[16:06] <Randomskk> or is that sysclk
[16:06] <Laurenceb> i think you pll to sysclk
[16:06] <Randomskk> yea
[16:06] <Laurenceb> hmm i need to try and copy your code exactly
[16:07] <Laurenceb> the only difference is the remap
[16:07] <Laurenceb> maybe thats the issue
[16:07] <Randomskk> could be, I assume you're setting the GPIO pins right
[16:07] <Randomskk> the right GPIO pins right, at that
[16:08] <Laurenceb> yes
[16:08] <Laurenceb> B8 and 9
[16:09] <eroomde> Randomskk: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=4643018
[16:09] <eroomde> can you get to that from within CUDN?
[16:10] <eroomde> that was cited in the pub by the blake who gave a talk about the roke manor implementation
[16:10] <eroomde> don't have it on my new pc
[16:10] <Randomskk> yes, although somewhat convolutedly via shibboleth
[16:10] <Randomskk> <3 cudn's access to papers
[16:10] <Randomskk> want the pdf?
[16:10] <eroomde> ok, well i'd love an email fromy uo with it attached as a pdf if poss :D
[16:11] <eroomde> kd0mto: so, obviously excusing new job commitments, are you working on any projects currently?
[16:11] <Randomskk> to your cam.ac.uk or..?
[16:11] <eroomde> Randomskk: btw i will expect ssh access to a box inside cudn once i loose raven login
[16:11] <eroomde> which i guess will happen in the next couple of months
[16:12] <eroomde> Randomskk: gmail
[16:12] <eroomde> svp
[16:12] <Randomskk> hm
[16:12] <Randomskk> the CUSF lab's connections are all firewalled to only allow connections from inside CUED
[16:12] <Randomskk> rooms at selwyn can't take incoming connections from outside of the CUDN, technically
[16:12] <Randomskk> but I mean, "technically"
[16:13] <Randomskk> because my desktop is multihomed on IPv6 which tunnels to the outside world directly
[16:13] <eroomde> Randomskk:
[16:13] <eroomde> bum
[16:13] <eroomde> http://www.elonics.com/products/rf_tuners.do?id=1
[16:13] <eroomde> can one mane ctrl-V work from withing gnome terminal?
[16:13] <eroomde> make*
[16:13] <Randomskk> try ctrl+shift+v
[16:14] <eroomde> http://www.elonics.com/products/rf_tuners.do?id=1
[16:14] <eroomde> d'oh
[16:14] <Randomskk> though usually I just middle click
[16:14] <Randomskk> that looks like a nice IC
[16:14] <eroomde> yes - it seems to work 30% of the time for me
[16:14] <jonsowman> the IC, or middle clicking?
[16:14] <eroomde> mid-clk
[16:15] <eroomde> ta adam
[16:15] <jonsowman> ah
[16:15] <eroomde> might aswell set up mendeley now
[16:15] <Randomskk> wow, 64MHz to 1.7GHz input range
[16:15] <eroomde> oh chaps (jon and adam) def start a jabref or mendeley now
[16:15] <eroomde> makes 4th year a lot easier
[16:15] <jonsowman> cool okay
[16:15] <jonsowman> ta
[16:15] <Randomskk> so, which :P
[16:15] <jonsowman> heh
[16:15] <eroomde> mendeley is what the cool kids use
[16:16] <eroomde> it's 'social'
[16:16] <Randomskk> good enough for me
[16:16] <jonsowman> also their homepage has a mbp and an iphone
[16:16] <eroomde> zackly
[16:16] <eroomde> both export bibtex so they're fine
[16:16] <eroomde> mendeley lets you get you library from anywhere
[16:16] <Randomskk> sexy, a linux download too
[16:16] <jonsowman> handy
[16:16] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: apparently i should use RCC_APB2Periph_AFIO
[16:17] <Laurenceb> to enable the alt function interface
[16:17] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: I see. I guess that makes some sense or something
[16:17] <Randomskk> there are so many bloody clocks
[16:17] <Laurenceb> just trying that now
[16:17] <Laurenceb> https://my.st.com/public/STe2ecommunities/mcu/Lists/ARM%20CortexM3%20STM32/Flat.aspx?RootFolder=https%3a%2f%2fmy.st.com%2fpublic%2fSTe2ecommunities%2fmcu%2fLists%2fARM%20CortexM3%20STM32%2fI2C%20with%20FSMC%20Remap%20Problem&FolderCTID=0x01200200770978C69A1141439FE559EB459D758000626BE2B829C32145B9EB5739142DC17E&currentviews=238
[16:17] <Laurenceb> eek huge url
[16:17] <SamSilver> bbl
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[16:19] <Randomskk> eroomde: do you think mendeley would be any good for datasheets or should I stick to articles?
[16:19] <eroomde> both i think will be fine
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[16:19] <Randomskk> hot
[16:19] <eroomde> so it's very good for papers
[16:19] <eroomde> lots of the features are paper-related
[16:19] <eroomde> but it's 'fine' for datasheets
[16:19] <Laurenceb> score - it works
[16:19] <eroomde> just less interesting metadata
[16:20] <Laurenceb> stupid bazillion clocks
[16:20] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: ikr, but epic when it works
[16:20] <Randomskk> eroomde: sweet
[16:20] <Randomskk> this is very neat
[16:20] <eroomde> yeah
[16:20] <eroomde> most of the PhDs are switching to it
[16:20] <Laurenceb> what sorry?
[16:20] <eroomde> just a good way of keeping your library organized
[16:20] <Randomskk> eroomde: any idea where you'd get one of those E4000 chips from?
[16:21] <Laurenceb> mendely?
[16:21] <jonsowman> hehe this is neat
[16:22] <eroomde> Laurenceb: paper management
[16:23] <Laurenceb> ah
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[16:23] <eroomde> drag and drop add-to-library, bibtex generation, 'notes' and annotations for your papers, and it's 'social' tho i'm not really sure what that means
[16:23] <eroomde> except you can see what your friends are reading
[16:23] <kd0mto> eroomde: I'm in job training right now. Honestly, so far this job seems like it's an insult to my intelligence so far. However, this week is rather unique and it's my first week so... I'll see what happens. Plus having a job is better than not having a job.
[16:25] <eroomde> Randomskk: we can creat a superresolution group
[16:25] <eroomde> so we can share papers
[16:25] <eroomde> and chat
[16:25] <Randomskk> wow
[16:25] <Randomskk> that is pretty social
[16:25] <eroomde> tell me your mendeley id when you get a min, i'll add you
[16:25] <Randomskk> adam@adamgreig.com I guess
[16:26] <jonsowman> too cool
[16:26] <eroomde> Randomskk: sent
[16:26] <kd0mto> I remember studying MUSIC in my DSP class.
[16:26] <eroomde> you can invite Jon :)
[16:26] Action: kd0mto completely forgot
[16:30] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: ever used i2c receive on stm32?
[16:30] <Randomskk> uhm
[16:30] <Randomskk> I'm sure I have, but I don't remember it
[16:31] <eroomde> Randomskk: accepted
[16:31] <eroomde> jonsowman: add us
[16:31] <Randomskk> maybe not, all I can find is i2c send and spi send/receive
[16:31] <Randomskk> jonsowman: join us
[16:31] <eroomde> eddymoore at gmail dot com
[16:31] <jonsowman> haha alright
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[16:33] <jonsowman> do I have to "invite" you?
[16:33] <Randomskk> should be able to add as contact
[16:33] <eroomde> jonsowman: what is your email?
[16:33] <eroomde> login one, that is
[16:34] <jonsowman> jon@jonsowman.com
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[16:34] <eroomde> cool
[16:34] <eroomde> just sent you an invite
[16:34] <eroomde> ation
[16:34] <jonsowman> done, ta
[16:35] <jonsowman> yay, friends
[16:35] <jcoxon> evening all
[16:35] <Randomskk> jonsowman: join the group! :o
[16:35] <Randomskk> jcoxon: heya!
[16:35] <Randomskk> how did you get atlas back in the end?
[16:35] <Randomskk> jonsowman: yay!
[16:35] <jcoxon> magic
[16:36] <Randomskk> jcoxon: sweet
[16:36] <jonsowman> :D
[16:38] <eroomde> Randomskk jonsowman : can you guys see Brandwood 87 in your group documents section?
[16:38] <Randomskk> yea
[16:39] <eroomde> this is clever :)
[16:39] <jonsowman> yup
[16:39] <Randomskk> though confusingly it's also in my personal library and it doesn't seem to know they're the same document
[16:39] <Randomskk> hmm
[16:39] <eroomde> i'm sure it does
[16:39] <Randomskk> I also can't download it from the group docs thing
[16:39] <jonsowman> its not in my personal lib
[16:39] <Randomskk> it says "Unfortunately we do not have permission to make this file downloadable"
[16:39] <eroomde> hmm
[16:39] <eroomde> odd
[16:39] <Randomskk> jonsowman: I added my own copy of the PDF to my personal library
[16:39] <jonsowman> Randomskk: i see
[16:39] <jonsowman> I get the above error too
[16:40] <Randomskk> jonsowman: so you can't read the document?
[16:40] <eroomde> that's a bit weird and annoying
[16:40] <Randomskk> yea
[16:40] <Randomskk> http://www.mendeley.com/c/4269608452/g/1132031/brandwood-1987-noise-space-projection-music-without-eigenvectors/
[16:40] <jonsowman> Randomskk: can't read it
[16:41] <Randomskk> from that page it does say "in your library" with a tick
[16:41] <Randomskk> and if I click that I can then view it
[16:45] <jonsowman> i cant
[16:45] <jonsowman> :(
[16:45] <eroomde> jonsowman: maybe try and add it to your own lib manually
[16:45] <eroomde> i guess it's one of those things
[16:45] <jonsowman> yeah
[16:46] <Randomskk> I added another paper
[16:46] <eroomde> otherwise your uni wouldn't need to subscribe to any journals as somethere os a social graph they could grab from someone
[16:46] <jonsowman> i need to write and publish some papers, then I could put them under Publications in my Bio \o/
[16:46] <Randomskk> haha get on it
[16:46] <Randomskk> in fact clearly you should just shunt your IA/IB lab reports up, this is obviously why you wrote them all in LaTeX
[16:46] <jonsowman> haha
[16:47] <eroomde> I do ahve some papers now, i can smugly announce
[16:48] Action: jonsowman is jealous
[16:48] Action: SpeedEvil has been published in a patent.
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> (as a reference only though)
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[16:53] <cuddykid> would like to thank RocketBoy hugely for his great guide to sealing the balloon!
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[16:53] <eroomde> seconded - will make explanations a lot easier!
[16:54] <RocketBoy> No Problem - its all part of the service ;-)
[16:54] <cuddykid> haha :D
[16:55] <jonsowman> RocketBoy: get anywhere with centronics?
[16:57] <Randomskk> eroomde: do we try for 1d angle or arrival estimation as per this paper, or 3d?
[16:57] <Randomskk> well I guess it's more like 2d or 3d polar
[16:57] <RocketBoy> jonsowman: Not yet - I had to go out this afternoon - but I'll get on it tomorrow
[16:57] <Randomskk> it's not like music can give you r :p
[16:57] <jonsowman> RocketBoy: cool okay, would you mind letting me know how it goes?
[16:57] <jonsowman> I'd be interested
[16:57] <eroomde> 3d polar?
[16:57] <eroomde> i guess strength is the 3rd dimesion
[16:57] <RocketBoy> tis strange - all I can think f now is tempreture
[16:58] <jonsowman> it could be a combined failure mode too
[16:58] <jonsowman> i.e. temp drop + depressurisation
[16:58] <jonsowman> that's not easy to test on the ground
[16:59] <RocketBoy> could be - what tube was it?
[16:59] <jonsowman> I'll try and get the model number for you, I can't remember off the top of my head
[16:59] <RocketBoy> tnx
[17:00] <RocketBoy> other tubes are rated down to -40C
[17:00] <jonsowman> RocketBoy: the tubes on the second launch were specificially tested by Centronics before they shipped them to us
[17:00] <KF5KWE> ok aprs modem is done for now
[17:00] <jonsowman> that was only a temperature test, not pressure
[17:00] <KF5KWE> though i need to add some pins on it for 5v and gnd so i can add the sensors, but thats for later
[17:02] <jonsowman> RocketBoy: have emailed the Apex list, I'll let you know when someone replies
[17:02] <RocketBoy> and then you vacuum tested them?
[17:02] <jonsowman> we vacuum tested the ones on the first flight
[17:02] <jonsowman> to about 0.1Bar iirc
[17:02] <jonsowman> (we didn't have a very good vac pump)
[17:04] <RocketBoy> Ah ok - it looks like the graph dropped beyond that as an altitude
[17:04] <jonsowman> yeah
[17:04] <jonsowman> comparing data from the two launches, the temperatures were a bit different at failure
[17:04] <jonsowman> whereas the altitude (and therefore pressure) were almost exactly the same
[17:05] <jonsowman> which indicates pressure was the issue
[17:05] <RocketBoy> ah OK - thats a bit of a clue
[17:05] <RocketBoy> my pump is suppoed to get down to 20 microns
[17:06] <jonsowman> would you be able to test at <0.1Bar?
[17:06] <jonsowman> oh nice, okay
[17:07] <Dan-K2VOL> what are you guys pressure testing
[17:07] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: GM tubes
[17:07] <RocketBoy> Although I have nothing to measure that low
[17:07] <Dan-K2VOL> Ah cool
[17:08] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: we've had two sets fail on two seperate flights at roughly the same altitude
[17:08] <Dan-K2VOL> Hmm could you use a scintillator instead?
[17:09] <RocketBoy> jonsowman: when you say fail - you don't mean completely do you - they worked again on landing?
[17:09] <jonsowman> on the second launch, one recovered and one didn't
[17:10] <jonsowman> on the first launch, the single working tube started working again on descent
[17:10] <RocketBoy> ah - where the mica windows ok?
[17:12] <jonsowman> these tubes have a thin metal sheath over them, no external window
[17:12] <jonsowman> lemme find a pic
[17:13] <jonsowman> RocketBoy: http://hexoc.com/u/gm-apex.jpg
[17:14] <RocketBoy> ah right - just beta/gamma then?
[17:14] <jonsowman> yup
[17:15] <jonsowman> and cool stuff like muons
[17:15] <jonsowman> not that you'd be able to tell them apart from gamma
[17:15] <jonsowman> i doubt these things would detect beta...
[17:16] <RocketBoy> yeah
[17:16] <jonsowman> RocketBoy: tube part number is Zp1200
[17:17] <Dan-K2VOL> But seriously have you guys thought about using a simple scintillator detector?
[17:17] <Dan-K2VOL> They sound a lot more stable physically
[17:17] <RocketBoy> ah cool - I'll look em u[
[17:17] <RocketBoy> up
[17:17] <RocketBoy> bbl - tea
[17:17] <Dan-K2VOL> ttyl
[17:18] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: it's certainly an option
[17:18] <jonsowman> we're just interested to know what's not working with the Geiger-Mullers really
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[17:48] <cuddykid> under £5 to go.. getting there!
[17:48] <cuddykid> guess it will be another few weeks yet
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[18:34] <Dan-K2VOL> Cool jonsowman
[18:34] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm looking to get a scintillator panel for playing around with an X-Ray machine from the dentist
[18:34] <Dan-K2VOL> And lots of lead
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[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> o
[19:45] <natrium42> hallo mister lunar lander
[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> do you remember that Tim Zaman did use an 808 keyring spy cam on his balloon?
[19:46] <natrium42> und mister speed evil
[19:46] <natrium42> Randomskk: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_jQdVCwPSCb0/TdBWlTHFjhI/AAAAAAAAMZ8/E9JZpfmKoyw/s640
[19:46] <natrium42> eroomde: ^
[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> anyhow
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> the 808 cam night ride!
[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek96OqckcwY
[19:47] <natrium42> it's not bad, Lunar_Lander
[19:48] <SpeedEvil> OMG! On the wrong side!
[19:48] <natrium42> ...
[19:48] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:50] <Lunar_Lander> and the song is cool
[19:52] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: this is interesting
[19:52] <Laurenceb_> think i have the annoying i2c bug everyone moans about on stm32
[19:53] <Lunar_Lander> I noticed something on the predictor
[19:53] <Laurenceb_> page 712 of the reference manual - i tried to send NACK for the last byte then STOP
[19:53] <Lunar_Lander> when I enter a launch at 10:00 UTC for instance
[19:53] <Lunar_Lander> and I move the cursor on the launch dot, it says "at 11:00 UTC"
[19:53] <Laurenceb_> apparently that doesnt work due unless you have the timing spot on
[19:55] <Laurenceb_> you have to do some weird shizzle with the buffered data registers
[19:57] <Laurenceb_> it hangs after the first i2c comms atm
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[20:01] <MNSP> hello all :)
[20:01] <jonsowman> nuffink
[20:01] <jonsowman> oops, wrong window
[20:01] <jonsowman> hi MNSP
[20:02] <MNSP> hiya jonsowman
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> hi jonsowman MNSP
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> jonsowman do you know why
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> when I enter a launch at 10:00 UTC for instance
[20:04] <Lunar_Lander> and I move the cursor on the launch dot, it says "at 11:00 UTC"
[20:04] Nick change: NigeyS -> NotNigeyS
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[20:05] <jonsowman> Lunar_Lander: it's fine here, so that indicates that somewhere your local system time is being used
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> ah, thanks
[20:05] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:05] <jonsowman> the time you put into the form is waht it uses
[20:05] <jonsowman> I'll make a github issue for it
[20:05] <jonsowman> and sort it out in the coming months, after exams :)
[20:06] <jonsowman> thanks
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> you're welcome :)
[20:07] <jonsowman> https://github.com/jonsowman/cusf-standalone-predictor/issues
[20:07] <jonsowman> I've got some work to do... lol
[20:07] <natrium42> so anybody up for flying blow-up dolls on the 21st?
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> I see mine is issue #76
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[20:10] <jonsowman> heh
[20:10] <jonsowman> there are 56 closed issues
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:19] <Randomskk> natrium42: nice pic :)
[20:19] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: that sounds super annoying
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[20:22] <Laurenceb_> page 712 is confusing as hell
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> apparently openpilot gave up and bit banged :-/
[20:23] <Randomskk> (!)
[20:23] <Randomskk> seriously? wow
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> if openpilot cant make it work...
[20:24] <Randomskk> http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/ERRATA_SHEET/CD00260217.pdf the same issue as in 2.8 there?
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> 2.8.1 yes i think
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> i wanted to keep it simple and avoid dma and interrupts
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> workaround3 looks like a pita
[20:25] <Dan-K2VOL1> Haha natrium42 I like the flying dolls, I think we should do them as an armada of low altitude floaters
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> aiui the i2c stop never completing is my issue
[20:26] <Laurenceb_> as it doesnt go out of rx mode sucessfully
[20:30] <Laurenceb_> actually no 2.8 is different from reference p712
[20:30] <Randomskk> that sheet is for the value line f100 series which is what i'm working with atm
[20:31] <Randomskk> bitbanging i2c would be a total pain though, you lose dma and backgroundness
[20:32] <Laurenceb_> yeah im going to try the reference manual scheme
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[20:35] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: I think I'm actually going to use an stm32f100 for my bldc esc
[20:36] <Randomskk> £2, tqfp48, TIM1 is capable of running the entire drive stage itself
[20:36] <Laurenceb_> nice
[20:37] <Randomskk> ugh though tim1ch2 and tim1ch3 are usart1_tx and usart1_rx
[20:37] <Randomskk> guess I'll have to remap
[20:38] <Randomskk> oh, shit, they can't remap on the 48 pin one?
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[20:40] <Randomskk> ugh
[20:40] <Randomskk> I can remap the serial pins to another one in the tqfp48, but not the timer pins
[20:40] <Randomskk> however remapping the serial pins is no good for the bootloader
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[20:41] <Laurenceb_> http://pastie.org/1928543
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> grr why did i leave the hardware in the lab
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[20:41] <Dan-K2VOL1> Lol http://makezine.com/robots.txt
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> have to try 2morrow - thats an implimentation of p712
[20:42] <Randomskk> ugh
[20:42] <Randomskk> Dan-K2VOL1: haha
[20:42] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: bit of a pain, but I guess if it works...
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> theres an internal buffer off the i2c register
[20:42] <Laurenceb_> you let it fill up then empty
[20:43] <MNSP2> lol, well spotted dan-k2vol1
[20:43] <Laurenceb_> BTF bit == full
[20:43] <Dan-K2VOL1> Heh have to give credit to paxtitania
[20:44] <Randomskk> ugh. I think I'm going to have to put the USART1 RX/TX lines for the bootloader onto the same pins that will be powering the drive stage
[20:44] <MNSP2> have to admit, I've never been amused by robots.txt before
[20:44] <Dan-K2VOL1> Hehe me either
[20:45] <Laurenceb_> dont forget to clk the remap hardware XD
[20:45] <Laurenceb_> stupid clks
[20:49] <Laurenceb_> my previous code would read once then hang the second time it was called
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[20:49] <Randomskk> I can't work out how I can both bootload the chip and use the TIM1 outputs
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> :(
[20:50] <Randomskk> if I connect it up, flashing it will turn on and off random power stage things
[20:50] <Randomskk> though I guess if I hook them both to high sides
[20:50] <Randomskk> then it won't matter
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[20:52] <Randomskk> yea, it'd be like sticking a wire into +ve and back into it
[20:52] <Randomskk> no current should flow
[20:52] <Randomskk> makes me sad, but should work
[20:52] <Randomskk> does mean I can't use serial to debug while running the thing though which is also a right pain
[20:52] <Randomskk> why would they do that
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[21:03] <jcoxon> evening all
[21:05] <fsphil> g'day mr jcoxon
[21:07] <jcoxon> hey fsphil
[21:08] <MNSP2> hows it going jcoxon?
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[21:08] <jcoxon> good thanks
[21:09] <jcoxon> though have managed to break my old school pc
[21:09] <jcoxon> need to find a floppy boot disk
[21:09] <jcoxon> just need to move libc.so back to its right position :-p
[21:10] <MNSP2> floppy, what is that :P
[21:10] <jcoxon> :-)
[21:10] <jcoxon> or a pc with ide
[21:11] <jcoxon> and i'll move the hard drive
[21:11] <MNSP2> there are still plenty of those around
[21:11] Action: jcoxon thinks his 25mhz 386 is awesome
[21:12] <fsphil> a classic :)
[21:12] <MNSP2> fsphil, any news about this weekend?
[21:17] <fsphil> prediction isn't great atm
[21:17] <fsphil> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=ffa4f777fc5b1314eb902ef8eb1ec09aac0c6304
[21:17] <fsphil> and has gotten worse since this-morning :)
[21:18] <fsphil> so right now, not likely
[21:19] <MNSP2> :(
[21:19] <MNSP2> such is life I guess
[21:20] <fsphil> could land it in scotland easily enough :)
[21:21] <MNSP2> Hibby could pick it up :D
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> If you can hit glenrothes, I'll post it back.
[21:22] <MNSP2> if you used any kind of steering mechanism, does the hab payload become a uav/uas?
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb did a rollgo
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> Which was intended to be guided.
[21:23] <jcoxon> MNSP2, perhaps
[21:24] <MNSP2> rollgo?
[21:24] <jcoxon> a rigid parafoil
[21:24] <MNSP2> its what I was thinking about when I first got interested in all this
[21:24] <MNSP2> ah, thanks. a parafoil was my first thought as it goes
[21:25] <MNSP2> do we know how he got on with that?
[21:25] <jcoxon> yeah its documented on the wiki
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> hello jcoxon
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> It sort-of-worked, but had mechanical issues.
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> It hasn't yet been reflown.
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[21:28] <MNSP2> hmm, its an intriguing idea
[21:30] <MNSP2> although I'm inclined towards the giuded artillery design
[21:32] <MNSP2> but that will have to wait till further down the road
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[21:33] <Laurenceb_> moi
[21:34] <MNSP2> why hello sir
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> yeah i flew a CofG shifted rogallo
[21:34] <Laurenceb_> i have too many projects XD
[21:35] <MNSP2> and your overall conclusion?
[21:35] <eroomde> natrium42: cool
[21:35] <eroomde> ta!
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> havent had time to refly it - it really just needed a change to the winch servo rigging, but ideally i wants a better gps
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> ublox5 or better
[21:35] <Laurenceb_> it was in nice stable flight all the way down according to the imu data
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[21:35] <Laurenceb_> so yeah rogallos are nice and easy to make work
[21:36] <MNSP2> wasit guided .. as in have a destination?
[21:36] <Laurenceb_> yes
[21:37] <MNSP2> cool!!!
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> but they winch servo rigging went rather wrong and didnt have enough control authority for most of the flight
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> went in ~200m radius circles
[21:38] <Laurenceb_> hardware - http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:imgp0191.jpg?cache=
[21:38] <MNSP2> hmmm, it would be nice if we could get our payloads to come back to us
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> source is on the wiki as well http://ukhas.org.uk/code:parafoil_v2
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> atmega168 with winch servo off the pwm
[21:40] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: ugh tim1 is so complicated
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:parafoil_3.png?cache=
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> What's the state of the hardware - you were planning to refly at one point.
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> heh havent looked yet
[21:40] <Randomskk> I think I'm going to have usart1 wired to a six pin ftdi header for bootloading
[21:40] <Randomskk> possibly with dtr rigged to set boot0 to bootloader mode
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: it needs ublox5 to work nicely
[21:40] <Randomskk> and reset
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[21:40] <Randomskk> and then a second ftdi connection to usart2 for debug
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> ive added some mini ball bearing units to the wings
[21:40] <Laurenceb_> and redone the servo so it works properly
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> :)
[21:41] <MNSP2> I have a gpsbee which should work
[21:41] <Laurenceb_> just needs the lassen swapping for a ublox5, but i dont have any ublox5 modules spare
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> you can put a 1p coin on one side of the wings and theyll tilt over now - RS bearing units are very nice
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[21:43] <Laurenceb_> http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:ukhas_glider_project:pict7921.jpg?cache=
[21:43] <Laurenceb_> ive swapped the tronics enclosure and ripped off the motor since then
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> also the hackish bent aluminium 'bearings' are proper sealed units
[21:44] <MNSP2> would you want it motorised eventually or not?
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> that design doesnt work well motorized
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> thrust is too far from the center of drag
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> you need a 2 axis tilting wing
[21:46] <eroomde> night all
[21:47] <MNSP2> I wonder if it could still be classed as a uav/uas without a motor
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> cya
[21:47] Action: SpeedEvil wants to get his flapping rigid wing working.
[21:47] <MNSP2> night
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/projects:ukhas_glider_project:p7270025.jpg?cache=
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> that prototype actually worked better
[21:47] <Laurenceb_> i think airflow through the nylon is significant
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> You mean significant in a good way?
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> no as the air leaks through
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> i got the prototype one to slope sour for ~4minutes
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> neat.
[21:49] <MNSP2> I like that last picture too
[21:49] <Laurenceb_> ~25mph wind on a steep slope
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> they work quite well - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4858664474879256299#
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> Does diet go further?
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> lol
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[21:54] <MNSP3> brb
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[21:55] <SpeedEvil> On a sort-of-related topic - does anyone have any thoughts on how I can get - say - 15A through cheap lightweight rotary couplers?
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> Say up to 300RPM
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> Is there anything readymade?
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> dunno
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[21:58] <Laurenceb_> hmf http://www.st.com/internet/evalboard/product/250367.jsp
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> they have .exe files, but why no source
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> 'everyone runs windows'
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> but i want to read their stm32 imu firmware
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> Yow.
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> $286
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> oh
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[22:00] <SpeedEvil> dissasembelr?
[22:00] <Laurenceb_> cant be bothered
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> indeed
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> cant see any reason not to publish the firmware source
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> 'wasn't in the contract'
[22:01] <Laurenceb_> rather than a packaged .exe using dfu over usb
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[22:07] <KF5KWE> ok my aprs tracker/flight mcu works at 27f
[22:07] <KF5KWE> batteries, etc
[22:07] <KF5KWE> coldest i could get the icebox im afraid
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[22:09] <Laurenceb_> right im off, cya
[22:10] <MNSP2> night laurenceb
[22:10] <MNSP2> time for me too, night all :)
[22:10] <Laurenceb_> oh theres one with intelligent tree avoidance here http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7947087481519535776#
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[22:11] <Laurenceb_> CofG too far back
[22:11] <Laurenceb_> anyway, cya all
[22:11] <Randomskk> seeya
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[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> hello RocketBoy
[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> thank you for the photo tutorial on sealing the balloon
[22:17] <Lunar_Lander> can I ask a question about your post in the "Dream Payload" thread?
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> or better: your thread
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[22:20] <RocketBoy> Lunar_Lander: sure
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> do you have a good idea for an air sampler?
[22:23] <RocketBoy> no not really - just kicking ideas about at the moment.
[22:23] <RocketBoy> I was thinking of sampling on the descent rather than ascent - to avoid contamination from the balloon
[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, that is a good idea
[22:24] shenki (~joel@219-90-153-235.ip.adam.com.au) got lost in the net-split.
[22:24] natrium42 (~alexei@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) got lost in the net-split.
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> and do you have a good idea for a magnetometer?
[22:24] <RocketBoy> and to get a nice dynamic pressure
[22:24] <W0OTM> Live Webcast has started for iHAB-5
[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:24] <W0OTM> http://www.ihabproject.com/Tracker/?vehicle=&mission_id=iHAB-5
[22:24] <RocketBoy> there are a few chips around
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> those Hall effect ones are not good, because they only really measure things when you get close with a magnet
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[22:27] <RocketBoy> there are some much more sensiive ones about
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> Dr Harrison at Reading did use these to measure the shaking of a radiosonde
[22:28] <Lunar_Lander> and from that he derived turbulence
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> 3 axis magnetometers have gooten comparably cheap with hall sensors almost
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> RocketBoy PDF: http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/JTECH1860.1
[22:31] <RocketBoy> thanks
[22:32] <Lunar_Lander> you are welcome
[22:35] <RocketBoy> night all
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[22:42] <Lunar_Lander> W0OTM I wish you a good night
[22:42] <Lunar_Lander> unfortunately I have to go to sleep now
[22:43] <BrainDamage> Lunar_Lander: just 1 question
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[22:43] <BrainDamage> why you cannot simply use a tube + solenoid to sample the air?
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> that is a good idea
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> there is no reason not to do that
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> thanks!
[22:44] <BrainDamage> mount it considering the preferred direction of the fall
[22:45] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> thanks again BrainDamage
[22:47] <NotNigeyS> i'm planning on going 1 step further than air samples
[22:47] <NotNigeyS> depending on how i can design the experiment
[22:47] <BrainDamage> np
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> yea?
[22:49] <NotNigeyS> microbes, from 20km .. captured and stored by cryoprobes
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> like they do in India
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[22:49] <NotNigeyS> on a smaller scale :)
[22:50] <BrainDamage> how would you cool the sample?
[22:50] Action: fsphil has pictures of nigey opening the sample container and finding a squirrel
[22:50] <NotNigeyS> BrainDamage, dry ice
[22:50] <NotNigeyS> lol phil
[22:50] <fsphil> them flying squirrels, we know so little :)
[22:51] <NotNigeyS> BrainDamage, not safe to fly liquid nitrogen ..
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> Why not?
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> NotNigeyS see the top news: http://stratocat.com.ar/news0309e.htm
[22:51] <NotNigeyS> lots of reasons, safety of the public more than anything SpeedEvil
[22:51] <BrainDamage> public?
[22:52] <BrainDamage> even if it'd leak, it'd vaporize quickly
[22:52] <NotNigeyS> if we lose track of the payload, someone ignores the notice, opens it, dips their hand in liquid nitrogen .. not good
[22:52] <NotNigeyS> unlikely, but still possible
[22:52] <BrainDamage> they'd get burns from dry ice as well
[22:52] <NotNigeyS> so no tnx, dry ice at -79 will do fine
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> Dry ice may burn more
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> liebenfrost
[22:52] <NotNigeyS> least they wont lose a limb :P
[22:53] <SpeedEvil> Unless they are a tree.
[22:53] <NotNigeyS> lol
[22:53] <NotNigeyS> Lunar_Lander,
[22:53] <NotNigeyS> http://www.astrobiology.cf.ac.uk/CurrentScienceFinal.pdf
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> cool, thanks!
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> you need a guy with the appropiate biology equipment though
[22:55] <NotNigeyS> oh im only a few minutes away from cardiff university
[22:55] <NotNigeyS> friends in high places ;)
[22:55] Action: SpeedEvil puts on 'The Andromeda Strain'.
[22:55] Action: NotNigeyS puts on a frock
[22:55] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[22:57] Nick change: NotNigeyS -> NigeyS
[22:58] <fsphil> ah there you are nigey
[22:58] <fsphil> you just missed some guy in a frock
[22:58] <NigeyS> omg :o
[22:59] <NigeyS> which way did he go ?
[22:59] <fsphil> the wrong way
[23:00] <NigeyS> lols
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[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> and now good night!
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[00:00] --- Fri May 20 2011