highaltitude.log.20110517

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[00:14] <Randomskk> heck yes, I got an LED blinking...
[00:14] <Randomskk> by running a real time operating system on my
[00:14] <Randomskk> micrcontroller, setting up two threads, creating a shared
[00:14] <Randomskk> mailbox
[00:14] <Randomskk> wow, that broke unusually
[00:14] <Randomskk> anyway then one thread sends mail to the other to tell it turn the LED on and off :3
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:15] <SpeedEvil> I used a 555.
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> What micro?
[00:16] <Randomskk> stm32
[00:17] <Randomskk> running chibios
[00:17] <Randomskk> https://gist.github.com/975629
[00:17] <Randomskk> I think this is the most convoluted led blinking I've done recently
[00:17] <Randomskk> but it was a great way to play with threads and mailboxes
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:17] <Randomskk> quite tempted to use chibiOS for my quadcopter and such now, it's really neat
[00:18] <Randomskk> means not having to use the rubbish ST libraries as ChibiOS's HAL has drivers for all the STM32's peripherals
[00:18] <Randomskk> oh, except the MAC and for some bizarre reason I²C
[00:19] <Randomskk> but it does let you very easily build and link the ST standard peripheral library, which is fine for doing some i2c stuff
[00:19] <Randomskk> the mac's a pain in the arse
[00:19] <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
[00:21] <Randomskk> but yea, very easy threading and a nice HAL make it a tempting option
[00:21] <Randomskk> plus the binary's almost no bigger than bare metal + ST peripheral library, the build system's not bad, it outputs the bin files the bootloader script needs, etc
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> Neat.
[00:23] <Randomskk> sadly that LED is the only peripheral on the entire board
[00:26] <Randomskk> so the OS has an I²C module in HAL, but no implementation in any architecture yet
[00:27] <Randomskk> oh well, I'd better get to sleep, anyway
[00:27] <SpeedEvil> Night!
[00:27] <Randomskk> seeya :)
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[01:25] <Hibby> aye
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[04:32] <SamSilver> Dan the man morning
[04:33] <Dan-K2VOL> hey Sam
[04:33] <Dan-K2VOL> morning indeed!
[04:34] <Dan-K2VOL> how's life over there
[04:34] <Dan-K2VOL> what's the winter climate like around your area?
[04:37] <SamSilver> All good here
[04:37] <SamSilver> very mild winter as I am 30 deg lat
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[04:38] <Dan-K2VOL> oh nice, we're at about +35 lat here, we just get pretty cold, but very little snow
[04:39] <Dan-K2VOL> I envy your position to do oceanic long duration ballooning
[04:40] <Dan-K2VOL> I hope you can benefit from our satellite modem development if you ever want to give the long duration envelopes a shot
[04:40] <SamSilver> I am going to be slapping the plastic within a week, getting one of > http://www.bigredbee.com/blgps_2mhp.htm
[04:41] <Dan-K2VOL> very nice
[04:41] <SamSilver> and was wondering with that much power could I get away with a magnetic mounted 1/2 wave on the car/
[04:41] <SamSilver> 8 watts
[04:41] <Dan-K2VOL> holy crap
[04:41] <Dan-K2VOL> that's a lot
[04:41] <Dan-K2VOL> for a balloon anyway
[04:42] <SamSilver> 8watts would turn james bright green
[04:42] <SamSilver> coxon
[04:42] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[04:42] <SamSilver> but it is my revenge for him having a spot and me not covered by spot
[04:43] <SamSilver> is the spot still up the tree?
[04:43] <Dan-K2VOL> aw darn that sucks, but you're definitely in Orbcomm
[04:43] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm not sure
[04:44] <SamSilver> I am on a budget so my long duration will be completly autonomous, unless the Lotto comes in!!
[04:45] <Dan-K2VOL> hell, the orbcomm hardware and data plan will cost you less than the big red bee!
[04:45] <Dan-K2VOL> it's $150 for the sat modem radio, and about $100 for enough data for a mission
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[04:46] <SamSilver> wa afk
[04:46] <SamSilver> was
[04:47] <SamSilver> I did not know
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[04:47] <SamSilver> the $150 sat modem is the one on the balloon right?
[04:47] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[04:48] <Dan-K2VOL> it's the Digi m10
[04:48] <SamSilver> I have ham lic but not a single piece of equipment
[04:48] <SamSilver> soHow do you com with the Sat from ground ?
[04:49] <Dan-K2VOL> you email it
[04:49] <SamSilver> realy!!!
[04:49] <Dan-K2VOL> you receive emailed telemetry
[04:49] <SamSilver> you kidding
[04:49] <Dan-K2VOL> its' the shit my friend
[04:49] <Dan-K2VOL> that's what we're using for White Star
[04:50] <SamSilver> I though it was radio uplink
[04:50] <Dan-K2VOL> the method that you use to talk to it with your flight computer is AWFUL though, I've been working to make it into an easy arduino library for balloonists
[04:50] <SamSilver> this puts a different light on things
[04:50] <Dan-K2VOL> we have an HF transmitter onboard for backup
[04:51] <SamSilver> I was thinking of using 40m
[04:51] <SamSilver> I read that 40 m band holds record for watts per 1 000 km ratio
[04:51] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[04:52] <SamSilver> what band is your HF on?
[04:52] <SamSilver> or freq?
[04:52] <Dan-K2VOL> 7.102 is the freq that cornell and bill brown seemed to choose for ours
[04:53] <SamSilver> and that is morse code?
[04:53] <SamSilver> or the usual?
[04:57] <Dan-K2VOL> it's a blip of morse, and then RTTY ascii Spacenear.us format
[04:57] <Dan-K2VOL> :-)
[04:58] <SamSilver> how much info in the morsecode?
[04:59] <Dan-K2VOL> almost none, just altitude
[05:00] <Dan-K2VOL> we'll probably change that
[05:00] <Dan-K2VOL> for actual flight
[05:01] <SamSilver> when speedball nearly flew I was sooo excited that I got in snacks and food for a few days!
[05:01] <SamSilver> moved couch next to PC
[05:03] <Dan-K2VOL> that's really really cool Sam, it will yet give those three days of riveting webpage refreshing :-)
[05:10] <SamSilver> I hope to do a test flight (hopefully just one) with all equipment plus theBigRedBee and then remove the BRB and do duration flight
[05:18] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[05:18] <Dan-K2VOL> good plan
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[05:33] <KF5KWE> anyone know the lagality of a US based high altitude glider?
[05:34] <KF5KWE> I've only been able to find a memo from the 80's that references hobby planes being limited to 400 feet
[05:40] <Dan-K2VOL> sure
[05:41] <Dan-K2VOL> last I understood, they are not legal unless you jump through a LOT of regulatory hoops
[05:41] <Dan-K2VOL> http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=6287
[05:52] <KF5KWE> bummer
[05:52] <Dan-K2VOL> it is sad, you used to be able to, before a few years ago
[05:54] <SamSilver> bbl
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[07:08] <griffonbot> Received email: Ed Moore "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Information Please"
[07:11] <eroomde> eroomde
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[08:32] <GW8RAK> Morning all, has anyone on here played with stepper motors please?
[08:35] <Randomskk> GW8RAK: somewhat
[08:35] <Randomskk> though I wll be back in about ten minutes :P
[08:36] <GW8RAK> Thanks Randomskk. I have a project in mind and a stepper motor is ideal for driving a variable capacitor, but looking on the web this morning, many appear as 1.6 degrees per step. However I need greater resolution than this. Is that a nominal rotation and smaller steps are possible?
[08:37] <GW8RAK> Or does it all come down to the motor control software?
[08:39] <SamSilver> stepper motors have a set
[08:39] <SamSilver> max number of steps
[08:41] <GW8RAK> That has been my understanding SamSilver, but I could do with more resolution, I think. I say I think because until I try it, I won't know.
[08:41] <fsphil> have you room for a gear?
[08:41] <jonsowman> GW8RAK: look up microstepping
[08:41] <GW8RAK> There will be feedback in addition to the number of step commands sent, so repeatability is not so important.
[08:42] <jonsowman> sine-cosine microstepping is probably what you want
[08:43] <GW8RAK> thanks jonsowman, just reading about it now. Is that how printers get their high resolution?
[08:43] <jonsowman> I would imagine so
[08:43] <jonsowman> most stepper drivers are microstepping ones anyway these days aiui
[08:43] <jonsowman> as it gives smoother motion and less resonance
[08:44] <GW8RAK> I'd always imagined that they had many more steps per 360 degrees than that and hadn't found microstepping as the solution.
[08:44] <jonsowman> the downside of microstepping is that you lose torque quite significantely
[08:44] <GW8RAK> Plenty of room fsphil, this is for the motor controlled capacitor on the loop antenna
[08:44] <Randomskk> GW8RAK: back
[08:44] <Randomskk> many steppers are 1.8 degrees, I hadn't seen any 1.6
[08:45] <Randomskk> however most stepper controllers - for instance easydriver is a quick way to get started - can do 8x microstepping, as jonsowman mentioned
[08:45] <Randomskk> so you can get 1600 steps per revolusion
[08:45] <Randomskk> revolution even
[08:45] <GW8RAK> No great torque requirements, but once set, it mustn't vary with mechanical shock.
[08:45] <Randomskk> there are also many 0.9 degree steppers
[08:45] <Randomskk> which might be even better
[08:45] <jonsowman> I wonder how small you can make that fraction before the steps individually become useless
[08:45] <GW8RAK> Thanks Randomskk. That is just what I'm after.
[08:45] <jonsowman> guess that depends a lot on the mechanical properties of the motor
[08:46] <Randomskk> I'm not actually sure how you hold a stepper motor in place electrically
[08:46] <GW8RAK> I'd like sub 1 degree steps, but until I try it, I won't know. I'll look for a microstepping controller or how to implement it on a Picaxe
[08:46] <Randomskk> I would strongly advise getting a controller chip
[08:47] <Randomskk> e.g. the A3967
[08:47] <Randomskk> or a carrier board such as http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9402 (like £8 from UK retailers)
[08:47] <GW8RAK> They aren't expensive, and I'll need some high current capacity, so that's the way I'm considering.
[08:48] <jonsowman> very neat board that
[08:48] <GW8RAK> Unfortunately no longer available, but I've found plenty of others.
[08:48] <Randomskk> uhm, right
[08:48] <Randomskk> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10267
[08:48] <Randomskk> bad link
[08:49] <GW8RAK> Hadn't seen that they did e-textiles
[08:49] <Randomskk> I've used that one in particular and it works great
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[08:50] <GW8RAK> I'm not even sure that a stepper motor isn't overkill as I only need 180 degrees of rotation. But the stepper motor gives me slow speed without a gearbox
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[08:51] <Randomskk> servo?
[08:51] <Randomskk> bear in mind a stepper will also need some sort of feedback - a rotary encoder or something on the capacitor or radio tuner itself
[08:51] <Randomskk> while a servo just goes to a specified position and will hold it there
[08:52] <GW8RAK> The feedback will come from maximum smoke from the transmitter. Hopefully that isn't the compressed smoke which components are made from.
[08:52] <Randomskk> I mean, to know the position
[08:52] <Randomskk> otherwise all you're doing is moving it, but you don't know where it is
[08:53] <GW8RAK> I don't think I need to know where it is, just which way it is going and the speed.
[08:53] <Randomskk> okay
[08:54] <GW8RAK> I only need 180 degrees of rotation, but there are no end stops so it can use any 180 degrees it likes
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[08:55] <GW8RAK> the project is a loop antenna which the capacitor tunes. The SWR is measured as the capacitor rotates and at SWR minimum, rotation stops
[08:55] <jonsowman> there's your feedback loop then
[08:55] <GW8RAK> My question is answered so thank you all.
[08:56] <GW8RAK> That's the plan jon
[08:56] <jonsowman> :)
[08:56] <GW8RAK> Just wondering about building a high voltage capacitor now.
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[09:03] <fsphil> building a capacitor?
[09:04] <natrium42> yo
[09:04] <Randomskk> hi natrium42
[09:04] <natrium42> eroomde: missed flight yesterday :S
[09:04] <GW8RAK> 2 or more sheets of pcb with teflon spacer
[09:04] <natrium42> yo Randomskk
[09:04] <Randomskk> how was London? :D
[09:04] <natrium42> great!
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[09:05] <natrium42> in airport now
[09:05] <Randomskk> nice
[09:05] <natrium42> this time, ON TIME
[09:05] <fsphil> London's a nice place
[09:05] <natrium42> :D
[09:05] <natrium42> public transit is nice
[09:05] <natrium42> went to westminster and buckingham palace
[09:05] <natrium42> yesterday
[09:06] <fsphil> Have a go on the London Eye?
[09:06] <Randomskk> what public transport are you comparing to? :P
[09:12] <KF5KWE> public transport here is cool, they have a free day when pollution is high
[09:13] <KF5KWE> the theory is, same amount of buses, maybe less cars
[09:13] <Randomskk> that's pretty neat
[09:14] <natrium42> Randomskk: russia/canada
[09:16] <Laurenceb> back in the ussr
[09:18] <griffonbot> Received email: Frank Ryan Jr "[UKHAS] Where to buy a balloon in the UK?"
[09:18] <KF5KWE> pot is also decrimilalized, because the major is a known stoner
[09:20] <Laurenceb> lmao
[09:20] <KF5KWE> still a ticket
[09:20] <KF5KWE> so it's like 200$ upfront, or 50$ and a class about drugs being bad mkay
[09:21] <griffonbot> Received email: Adam Greig "Re: [UKHAS] Where to buy a balloon in the UK?"
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[09:38] <SamSilver> bbl
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[09:38] Action: SpeedEvil feels closer to natrium42.
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[09:43] <jonsowman> RocketBoy: ping
[09:44] <RocketBoy> yo
[09:44] <jonsowman> hiya
[09:45] <jonsowman> I was just wondering if you have a 2000g Hwoyee to hand?
[09:45] <jonsowman> wanted to know the internal neck diameter
[09:45] <RocketBoy> yep
[09:45] <Randomskk> "Note: Hwoyee balloon neck diameter: 500g 6.4cm, 100g 7.7cm, 1200, 1600 and 2000g 8.3cm."?
[09:45] <jonsowman> oh, I missed that
[09:45] <jonsowman> :P
[09:46] <RocketBoy> yep - just looking that up
[09:46] <RocketBoy> (I was)
[09:46] <jonsowman> sorry about that
[09:47] <RocketBoy> i think the fold over technique works OK
[09:47] <jonsowman> so you folded it over, two cable ties + duct tape?
[09:48] <RocketBoy> - that way there is less to pull together when you tie off
[09:48] <jonsowman> yes that's true
[09:48] <RocketBoy> yes
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[09:48] <jonsowman> okay, thanks for that :)
[09:48] <Randomskk> RocketBoy: haha you say that
[09:49] <Randomskk> but they seem more prone to.. slipping.. when folded over
[09:51] <RocketBoy> the necks don't seem as long - they just need a bit more careful handling - I doubt if they are any more prone to slip.
[09:51] <Elwell> anyone got a photo of a 'well done' neck?
[09:52] <RocketBoy> you really need a photo of each stage - filling - tie off, line attachment - fold over
[09:52] <RocketBoy> tie agian - then tape up
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[09:53] <RocketBoy> bbl
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[11:20] <KF5KWE> ok so can anyone help me get how these weather balloons work
[11:20] <KF5KWE> I get that they can lift the amount they are listed, aka 500g balloon
[11:22] <KF5KWE> or am i mistaken?
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> It's more complex than that.
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> A 500g balloon will lift lots more than 500g - but to a lower altitude
[11:22] <KF5KWE> ah, so the grams listing is the balloons actual material weight?
[11:23] <KF5KWE> ok so one of the only places to buy balloons here in the US is http://www.scientificsales.com
[11:23] <KF5KWE> and they dont sell totex apparently
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ukhas.org.uk/guides:balloon_data?s[]=calculator
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> It's the balloon weight
[11:25] <KF5KWE> Uh
[11:25] <KF5KWE> So basically I'm shooting at the breeze with any other brand?
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> They will be similar.
[11:25] <KF5KWE> As these figures are for totex
[11:26] <Elwell> flip, so a 2000 g baloon *weighs* 2 kilos? flip.
[11:27] <SpeedEvil> Umm - I thought so.
[11:27] <KF5KWE> yes as I gather
[11:27] <Darkside> 2kg balloons are nuts
[11:27] <Darkside> freaking huge on the ground
[11:27] <Elwell> I can imagine
[11:28] <KF5KWE> Standard Inflated Diameter: 130" Burst Diameter: 30'
[11:28] <KF5KWE> uh wow
[11:28] <Elwell> and (noob q) If you fill it so it's only just got bouyancy and a light payload (ie low pressure) you're more likely to get a high altitude?
[11:28] <Darkside> Elwell: you may also end up with a floater
[11:28] <KF5KWE> slow ascent, high altitude i would presume
[11:28] <Darkside> where it stops going up
[11:28] <Darkside> and just.... floats
[11:29] <Darkside> going wherever the wind goes
[11:29] <KF5KWE> is there any math to gather what ascent rate is needed to actually reach burst altitude
[11:29] <Elwell> because of wierd pressure channels?
[11:29] <Darkside> http://www.projecthorus.org/horus8.html that launch was a floater
[11:29] <Darkside> balloon was underfilled due to a mishap on ground, and ended up floating just about 30km altitude
[11:30] <Darkside> you can see the section that it was floating in, its the long straight line
[11:30] <Elwell> ... spots scale bar. considerable distance too
[11:31] <Darkside> that balloon had a 1m/s ascent rate most of the way
[11:31] <Darkside> 1.5m/s, sorry
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> KF5KWE: See above wiki link, and calcuilator programs
[11:34] <Darkside> theres a video somewhere...
[11:34] <Darkside> Elwell: http://vimeo.com/16241165
[11:34] <KF5KWE> no i mean
[11:34] <KF5KWE> is there an ascent rate needed to meet burst altitude?
[11:34] <Darkside> http://vimeo.com/tag:projecthorus lots of stuff there
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> KF5KWE: See the calculator.
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> KF5KWE: neglecting stuff - the more gas in the balloon, the lower it will burst.
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> KF5KWE: But the more it will lift, or the faster it will rise.
[11:35] <KF5KWE> im actually kinda of wanted to not try too much first launch
[11:35] <KF5KWE> just try my hand in this new fangled hobby
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> This doesn't quite hold for underfilled balloons though
[11:36] <Elwell> just reading the blog entry about the flught. tail fin looked interesting
[11:36] <Darkside> tail fin broke off on landing :P
[11:36] <Darkside> i think
[11:36] <Darkside> watch the video
[11:36] <Darkside> i'm the maniac laughing right near the end
[11:41] <Elwell> love the way you have airlines in the pickups :-)
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> Did you save the board?
[11:45] <KF5KWE> anyone have any success with a project like this on kickstarter?
[11:46] <KF5KWE> say like, the rewards are items from the launch, pledge 150 and you give them the goPro cam etc
[11:58] <KF5KWE> huh
[11:58] <KF5KWE> there are several that got funding
[11:59] <fsphil> Darkside, can the gopro focus be adjusted?
[11:59] <KF5KWE> several project 3000$usd and more were funded for HAB projects
[12:12] <griffonbot> Received email: Oliver de Peyer "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Information Please"
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[12:40] <SpeedEvil> 3000 is way more than is generally needed.
[12:40] <Darkside> fsphil: nfi
[12:41] <fsphil> np
[12:41] <fsphil> thinking of using one for filming stuff up-close
[12:41] <Laurenceb_> http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=160851
[12:41] <Laurenceb_> loool
[12:45] <Darkside> fsphil: i think they have autofocus in them
[12:45] <Darkside> juxta sets the ones we use to some sort of far-focus mode
[12:49] <KF5KWE> hahahha
[12:49] <KF5KWE> Laurenceb_, that. is. awesome.
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[12:55] <fsphil> aaah perfect then
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[13:00] <fsphil> classic Laurenceb_ !
[13:00] <Dan-K2VOL> Good morning fellows
[13:02] <fsphil> hullo mr.dan
[13:02] <Dan-K2VOL> how are you today phil
[13:02] <KF5KWE> morning
[13:03] <Dan-K2VOL> Morning KF5KWE, what's your name?
[13:03] <KF5KWE> Marcel
[13:03] <Dan-K2VOL> (sorry too lazy to QrZ :p
[13:03] <KF5KWE> I presume your Dan :D?
[13:03] <Dan-K2VOL> Yep
[13:03] <Dan-K2VOL> Marcel, nice to meet you
[13:03] <KF5KWE> Always nice to meet a fellow ham
[13:04] <Dan-K2VOL> careful, I could have nothing to talk about but prostates and gall bladder problems!
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[13:05] <Dan-K2VOL> Though we're not on 80m so it's less likely :-P
[13:05] <fsphil> lol
[13:05] <KF5KWE> haha well I rarely use anything but data modes on 2m anyways
[13:05] <KF5KWE> :( not much in way of people to talk to here
[13:06] <fsphil> nor here
[13:06] <KF5KWE> ok heres whats confusing me, gas measurements
[13:06] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm with you marcel
[13:06] <Dan-K2VOL> Hahaha it's the bane of the hobby my new friend
[13:06] <KF5KWE> theres not only metric/imperial, but different ways of using those two systems
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> how?
[13:07] <KF5KWE> my qoute as of right now is 216 cu ft tank, 200$ deposit, plus .12cents per lb of helium
[13:08] <KF5KWE> 15$ a day charge as wel
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> The - empty - tank - costs $200
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> And $15/day
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> You then are charged 12 cents per pound of helium.
[13:08] <KF5KWE> That would be the more well thought out way of stating what I did, correct.
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> That sounds unlikely.
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> Are you sure it's not 12 dollars a pound?
[13:09] <KF5KWE> http://www.americanpartyrental.com/product.php?id=56728
[13:10] <KF5KWE> the tank is full, they weigh it after
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> 12 cents a pound is not a real figure.
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> It's a full cubic metre for about 4 cents.
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> Or a balloon will cost maybe 12 cents for a huuuge one to fill.
[13:10] <Dan-K2VOL> Ok KF5KWE you need to find a different supplier
[13:11] <Dan-K2VOL> Do not rent from party supply places
[13:11] <KF5KWE> Airgas?
[13:11] <Dan-K2VOL> That's better
[13:11] <Dan-K2VOL> call the local welding supply places
[13:11] <KF5KWE> im just trying to get a gauge on prices
[13:11] <Dan-K2VOL> You should get charged about $100 for 291 cu ft tank
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> If that 12 cents a pound is real though - bite their arm off if you want to do several.
[13:12] <Dan-K2VOL> And do NOT accept 'balloon gas', that's helium that's been diluted with a LOT of air
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> If that is balloon gas - it's plausible.
[13:12] <KF5KWE> yeah thats what i was almost sure the party supply price is so low for
[13:13] <KF5KWE> only slightly lighter than air
[13:13] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[13:13] <Dan-K2VOL> you'll need a regulator too, you can usually rent those as well
[13:13] <KF5KWE> Dan-K2VOL, so...rent from a welding supplier?
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> If I've got the numbers right - that tank will hold about 2.5 pounds of helium.
[13:13] <Dan-K2VOL> yes definitely KF5KWE
[13:14] <KF5KWE> 100$ to just rent a tank seems steep
[13:14] <Dan-K2VOL> You may need to go through some arcane paperwork to establish an account there, but it's worth it
[13:14] <Dan-K2VOL> $100 is the value of the helium
[13:14] <KF5KWE> wowza
[13:14] <Dan-K2VOL> balloons aren't cheap
[13:14] <Dan-K2VOL> well
[13:14] <SpeedEvil> Hydrogen is probably cheaper.
[13:14] <Dan-K2VOL> yes
[13:14] <SpeedEvil> But most people tend to steer away from that for no good reason.
[13:14] <KF5KWE> Id imagine thats ever harder to get
[13:14] <Dan-K2VOL> Unless you have a company that prices hydrogen at a "go away" price to scare individuals off
[13:15] <Dan-K2VOL> Which our local places do
[13:15] <Dan-K2VOL> if you're launching form your own land then hydrogen is a viable option, if you adhere to safety procedures
[13:15] <BrainDamage> you can produce hydrogen easily, trough chemical reactions or electrolysis
[13:15] <Dan-K2VOL> On a US airport, don't even suggest it
[13:16] <KF5KWE> Well, I don't know if launching from my 'land' is an option
[13:16] <KF5KWE> I've got about 1/10th an acre lol
[13:16] <Dan-K2VOL> producing your own hydrogen though is usually going to require paying for as much in raw materials and water scrubbers as just buying H2
[13:17] <Dan-K2VOL> you won't need a 291 cu ft tank unless you're launching 12 lbs though or going for extremely high altitudes
[13:17] <KF5KWE> Well, way I understand it, my payload will be under 4lb
[13:17] <KF5KWE> legal requirement
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[13:18] <NigelMoby> Boing
[13:18] <Dan-K2VOL> Good good
[13:18] <Dan-K2VOL> afternon Nigel
[13:18] <NigelMoby> Hey Dan, how are you today?
[13:19] <Dan-K2VOL> KF5KWE good to start lightweight anyway
[13:19] <KF5KWE> Well right now, I havent even finished the tracker, still need the radio
[13:19] <W0OTM> Hello World
[13:19] <Dan-K2VOL> Doing fine Nigey, watched a sexy smart girl give a fascinating demo of Max/MSP computer music software last night at the hackerspace
[13:20] <Dan-K2VOL> The visual programming method really appeals to me, I wish there was a way to do more programming that way
[13:20] <NigelMoby> Wooo Nicey, I'm jealous!
[13:20] <NigelMoby> Hey
[13:20] <NigelMoby> Marshall
[13:20] <NigelMoby> Bloody phone grr
[13:21] <Dan-K2VOL> morning marshall
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[13:22] <NigelMoby> Dammit I overslept and missed the dentist :(
[13:23] <KF5KWE> Thinking about selling my android tablet to launch a spaceship
[13:27] <NigelMoby> Speedy...
[13:27] <Dan-K2VOL> haha marcel good plan
[13:28] <NigelMoby> Do we know when they expect data back from ams? Can't get to ferns website...
[13:28] <NigelMoby> Cerns*
[13:28] <KF5KWE> Anyone in the market for the Dell Streak 7, loaded with rooted android
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[13:45] <Elwell> NigelMoby: initial downlink is via JPL
[13:45] <Elwell> they're still building the ground station here AFAIK
[13:45] <Elwell> I'll have a nose on the wau home :-)
[13:46] <Elwell> which part of 'can't get to cern's website' is faily btw?
[13:46] <NigelMoby> Ooo tnx for the info
[13:46] <NigelMoby> All of it .. think its the mobile .. can't get to BBC either
[13:47] <Elwell> s/jpl/johnson space centre/
[13:47] <Elwell> knew it began with J :-)
[13:47] <NigelMoby> Lol close :p
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[13:49] <NigelMoby> You work at cern ?
[13:49] <Elwell> yeah
[13:49] <NigelMoby> :o
[13:49] <NigelMoby> Wow
[13:49] <fsphil> he make little things go big boom
[13:50] <Elwell> where else can I source some helium :-)
[13:50] <fsphil> (relatively)
[13:50] <NigelMoby> So Uve seen atlas for real?
[13:50] <Elwell> yeah
[13:50] <NigelMoby> Grr lucky sod
[13:50] <Elwell> (no, there's no fancy glass control room by the detector, but the start of angels and demons was filmed down there
[13:51] <NigelMoby> Is it as big as it looks? :p
[13:51] <Elwell> yes
[13:51] <Hibby> Elwell: not angles and daemons?
[13:51] <fsphil> haha
[13:51] <NigelMoby> Swam
[13:51] <NigelMoby> Err
[13:51] <NigelMoby> Dam*
[13:51] <Dan-K2VOL> Neat to work at CERN!
[13:52] <NigelMoby> That would be my idea of heaven
[13:53] <Elwell> http://www.flickr.com/photos/elwell/368971027/in/photostream/ <-- BAD photo, but the pallete truck at the bottom gives an indication of scale
[13:53] <fsphil> what's with the giant mutant red spider?
[13:54] <KF5KWE> Can I legally launch from my backyard?
[13:54] <SamSilver> holy crap look at the grey earthworm
[13:54] <KF5KWE> Do I have to like, contact the homeowners association?
[13:54] <BrainDamage> fsphil: just some unforeseen conseguences of the experiments
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[13:55] <NigeyS> Elwell, tnx, that is huuuuuuuuuuuge !
[13:55] <fsphil> giant spiders and earthworms
[13:55] <W0OTM> iHAB-5 - Thursday at 6PM CST http://www.ihabproject.com/iHAB-5/
[13:55] <Elwell> the blue mutant spider blends in :-)
[13:55] <fsphil> we need to quarantine CERN!
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[13:56] <NigeyS> hey W0OTM .. a weekday launch .. unusual ?
[13:56] <BrainDamage> they spotted gordon freeman there already, I guess there's some hope at least
[13:56] <NigeyS> Elwell, they still shutting the LHC down end of the year ?
[13:57] <W0OTM> NigeyS: wouldn't say "unusual", but its going to be a short flight
[13:57] <W0OTM> NigeyS: I am cutting down at 30K feet
[13:57] <NigeyS> ahh well i'll be watching as usual, best of luck :)
[13:57] <NigeyS> oh nicey
[13:59] <NigeyS> 5 x 36" foils .. that'll be interesting marshall
[13:59] <Elwell> civ eng pics were incredible
[13:59] <Elwell> http://www.atlas.ch/photos/detector-site-underground.html
[14:00] <Elwell> I had one somewhere of a concrete pump truck being lowered in on a crane
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[14:00] <Elwell> looked like a tonka toy
[14:00] <fsphil> 6PM CST is 23:00 GMT
[14:00] <NigeyS> bloody eck
[14:01] <SamSilver> Elwell: do you hve a line drawn on the floor so you know when you are moving into another country?
[14:01] <SamSilver> border line?
[14:01] <NigeyS> lol
[14:01] <KF5KWE> W0OTM, think I can pick up your launch from Texas?
[14:02] <W0OTM> NigeyS: those balloons are SUPER cheap, and hopefully will work great for low alt testing
[14:02] <NigeyS> i have 6 here
[14:02] <NigeyS> for my pico launch
[14:02] <Elwell> SamSilver: nah. I do an international commute over to the resturant tho
[14:02] <W0OTM> KF5KWE: APRS?
[14:02] <NigeyS> qualatex iirc
[14:02] <KF5KWE> Yes
[14:02] <KF5KWE> Extremely interested in how your balloons work out
[14:02] <W0OTM> KF5KWE: maybe, Im cutting down at 30K feet, so wont get super high
[14:03] <KF5KWE> I'll certainly plan to follow if I can, if not by radio, by whatever you update, facebook/twitter?
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[14:03] <W0OTM> KF5KWE: I will webcast the entire launch
[14:03] <KF5KWE> W0OTM, wish my cell coverage allowed that here haha
[14:03] <KF5KWE> I would like to webcast my launch
[14:04] <W0OTM> KF5KWE: you can follow here : http://www.ihabproject.com/Tracker/?vehicle=&mission_id=iHAB-5
[14:04] <KF5KWE> already bookmarked :)
[14:04] <Elwell> http://www.atlas.ch/photos/atlas_photos/selected-photos/detector-site/underground/0207004_03-A4-at-144-dpi.jpg <-- ah, was similar to this one
[14:05] <W0OTM> KF5KWE: ok, cool!
[14:05] <NigeyS> lol Elwell they look like matstick toys .. amazing
[14:07] <Elwell> yeah. you *need* to stitch photos together to get the scale. Think graeme had some better ones. <goes hunting>
[14:09] <Elwell> http://www.flickr.com/photos/fiona_graeme/414488274/in/set-72157594576845670/
[14:09] <KF5KWE> W0OTM, you have a partnership with Airgas? thats awesome you must get awesome deals /envy emote
[14:11] <NigeyS> lol @ the cosmic ray certified piece of paper
[14:14] <W0OTM> KF5KWE: I really like my local AirGas gals :)
[14:14] <Dan-K2VOL> The gas companies generally seem amenable to publicity
[14:15] <Dan-K2VOL> Praxair is supplying the White Star gas for free for the trans-atlantic flights
[14:16] <NigeyS> Dan-K2VOL, when you launching?!
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> Oh nigey, I wish I knew
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> No new developments
[14:16] <NigeyS> hehe, these things take time, such is life :)
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> But the orbcomm antenna manufacturer gave us some good info on fixing our antenna issues
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> They do indeed!
[14:18] <NigeyS> i read about the orbcomm guy
[14:18] <NigeyS> shame they didnt tell you that from the beginning eh
[14:18] <KF5KWE> theres a praxair....distributor? not far from me
[14:19] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, orbcomm said to optimize the TX freq, but the actual company building the antennas for orbcomm says they optimize for halfway between TX and RX!
[14:19] <NigeyS> bah you'd have thought theyd both be singing from the same hymnsheet would't ya!
[14:19] <Dan-K2VOL> There you go, you won't likely get any for free unless you have a good high publicity flight, but you'll usually get a fair deal
[14:20] <Dan-K2VOL> Yeahh
[14:33] <cuddykid> £5.80 more till I can order my balloon!!
[14:33] <KF5KWE> cuddykid, you saving up on allowances? :P
[14:34] <cuddykid> KF5KWE: decided to use the money I get from doing short surveys at onepoll to buy balloon!! They pay out when I hit £40, at £34.20 atm lol
[14:34] <KF5KWE> hahaha awesome
[14:35] <KF5KWE> cuddykid, i mine bitcoin personally
[14:35] <cuddykid> oh right!
[14:36] <KF5KWE> Dan-K2VOL, are praxair good on prices for individuals?
[14:36] <KF5KWE> I still have no grasp of price though
[14:37] <KF5KWE> are we talking like 150$ total? for like 2m3?
[14:52] <SamSilver> bbl
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[15:17] <futurity> hi
[15:17] <futurity> is anyone attending Ed's talk thisevening?
[15:17] <futurity> anyone know what time it starts and ends?
[15:18] <NigeyS> im not, . i think he posted something about it to the list ?
[15:20] <futurity> said AGM started at 6pm
[15:20] <futurity> but don't know when Ed talk begins and finished
[15:20] <futurity> have to be back home to look after kids at 8pm you see
[15:20] <NigeyS> ahh, jonsowman might know if he's about
[15:28] <Elwell> may be a bit heavy but at least you'll get enough people tracking your HAB if you stick this in it: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Tracking-Device-Teardown/5250/1
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[15:52] <griffonbot> @CollegeARC: Check out the new article covering the build, flight, and recovery of RITCHIE-1 #arhab. #hamradio #hamr http://fb.me/JVQe35GE [http://twitter.com/CollegeARC/status/70517042968666114]
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[17:15] Action: NigeyS drops a pin
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[17:31] <griffonbot> @KB1LQC: To all you #reddit ppl out there + #hamr #hamradio ops, check out http://j.mp/mOyYVQ #arhab [http://twitter.com/KB1LQC/status/70542068900052992]
[17:31] <griffonbot> @CollegeARC: To all you #reddit ppl out there + #hamr #hamradio ops, check out http://j.mp/mOyYVQ #arhab [http://twitter.com/CollegeARC/status/70542070099619841]
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[17:33] <cuddykid> lol NigeyS
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[17:39] <SpeedEvil> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/place?cid=14725462936042668814&q=wormwood+scrubs&hl=en&ved=0CDUQuAUwAA&sa=X&ei=fLLSTYDSEIjm8QPX3aWsDw
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[18:16] <griffonbot> @Hamradio_Ticker: RT @CollegeARC: To all you #reddit ppl out there + #hamr #hamradio ops, check out http://j.mp/mOyYVQ #arhab [http://twitter.com/Hamradio_Ticker/status/70553280459186176]
[18:16] <griffonbot> @Hamradio_Ticker: RT @KB1LQC: To all you #reddit ppl out there + #hamr #hamradio ops, check out http://j.mp/mOyYVQ #arhab [http://twitter.com/Hamradio_Ticker/status/70553283189686272]
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[18:30] <NigeyS> lalala
[18:30] <NigeyS> ello laurenceb__
[18:34] <Laurenceb__> hi
[18:34] Nick change: Laurenceb__ -> Laurenceb
[18:35] <Laurenceb> hmf dont have the right hot air gun head for my stm32 :(
[18:35] <NigeyS> http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1105/1105.1031v1.pdf
[18:35] <NigeyS> interesting
[18:36] Action: SpeedEvil passes Laurenceb a ginsters pie-dish and some wire.
[18:37] <Laurenceb> heh i lent it to someone - have to wait till 2morrow
[18:37] <Laurenceb> link cable is done
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[18:37] <Laurenceb> also lsm303 is working with parasitic power off the itg-3200
[18:37] <SpeedEvil> Foolishl
[18:37] <SpeedEvil> Lend someone pie, pie never returns!
[18:37] <SpeedEvil> Woo!
[18:38] <Laurenceb> cp2102 board from ebay, hacked to run off external power supply
[18:38] <Laurenceb> and with rainbow ribbon cable and shrink swap XD
[18:40] <Laurenceb> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-2-0-UART-TTL-6-Pin-Module-Converter-CP2102-/270748860792?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item3f09e3c178
[18:40] <Laurenceb> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=270748860792
[18:41] <Laurenceb> need to cut trace to pin7 and connect to the 3.3v output pin, then its an externally powered device that can run at the device voltage
[18:45] <NigeyS> hmm that paper is confusing, i thought O3 was needed for a planet to be "habitable" :|
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[19:09] <nelly11> Hi guys..quick question, I am trying to build an inflatable solar panel (a mini one) similar to the one here "http://www.lgarde.com/products/itsat2.htm " If you scroll down on that page you can see the stowed and deployed version of the array. I want to test it on a hab but Im not sure what materials to use as I can't afford the actual materials that were used to build the one shown (Kevlar etc). Any ideas? Thanks
[19:11] <SpeedEvil> Why?
[19:11] <SpeedEvil> Anyway - kevlar is quite cheap
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[19:14] <mattltm> Hi all :)
[19:14] <nelly11> but I cant relly use the manufacturing techniques that have been used as it is going to be hand made
[19:14] <nelly11> so I was thinking of doing something simpler
[19:15] <nelly11> Hi mattltm
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> nelly11: Why? What is your goal?
[19:15] <nelly11> to test the deployement mechanism and the solar cells
[19:16] <nelly11> on a HAB
[19:16] <SpeedEvil> For putting on a satellite, eventually?
[19:16] <nelly11> yup
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> Look on ebay - there is lots of stuff available cheap
[19:17] <Dan-K2VOL> Nelly11 4 mil polyethylene is pliable at cold temperatures, is easy to heat seal with a clothes iron, and you could use a small CO2 cartridge for inflation
[19:18] <Dan-K2VOL> See youtube.com/steamfire for some clothes iron polyethylene sealing
[19:18] <nelly11> ok thanks
[19:20] <Dan-K2VOL> may want to use the air pillows as the actuators for a mechanical structure, that way if they deflate it's not a problem
[19:22] <nelly11> Thanks Dan-K2VOL. Do you know anywhere I can get all these from?
[19:22] <nelly11> I'm in the UK btw
[19:22] <SpeedEvil> Make it with bag sealers and stuff
[19:22] <Dan-K2VOL> Bag sealers would be idea
[19:22] <Dan-K2VOL> l
[19:23] <Dan-K2VOL> Buy 4 mil plastic tarps from home improvement stores as painters tarps
[19:24] <Dan-K2VOL> felt at a craft store
[19:24] <Dan-K2VOL> Wool felt
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[19:24] <Dan-K2VOL> CO2 cartidges from a paintball/speedball store
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[21:28] <nelly11> hi again. can someone please tell me where I can get sensors (temperature, pressure) etc for a HAB?...i've seen a few around but I'm not sure which ones to get..
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> 1-wire is popular for temperature
[21:30] <SpeedEvil> ds18b20
[21:32] <nelly11> thanks
[21:40] <fsphil> still not looking good for sunday: http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=ffa4f777fc5b1314eb902ef8eb1ec09aac0c6304
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[21:41] <MNSP> evening all :)
[21:41] <fsphil> hi hi MNSP
[21:42] <MNSP> how are you today fsphil?
[21:42] <fsphil> not bad, thinking of having an early night. you?
[21:43] <MNSP> yeah all good, trying to get my payload all straight in my head
[21:43] <fsphil> aah you're one of these folks who plan things :)
[21:44] <MNSP> lol, too often not very well, but yes
[21:45] <MNSP> I still have quiet a lot to do before I am launch ready but nothing unsurmountable (I hope)
[21:45] <fsphil> yea- tends to be lots of little things
[21:46] <MNSP> the devil being in the detail yeah
[21:47] <MNSP> so today I have been thinking about how to make my 1/4 wave antenna
[21:48] <MNSP> and it's just occurred to me that if I use 'floppy' wire instead of 'stiff' wire for the downward element, then the payload is less likely to overturn on landing, if that makes sense
[21:48] <fsphil> less likely to break too
[21:49] <fsphil> actually having the antenna sticking out the side, or up is probably more desirable for tracking
[21:50] <fsphil> after landing that is
[21:50] <MNSP> hmm yeah I can see how that would be
[21:51] <fsphil> or landing in a tree :)
[21:51] <MNSP> although my other thought today was to have kinda like helicopter skis either side of payload box that are larget than the 16.4 cm
[21:51] <MNSP> lol
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[21:52] <MNSP> but not sure how that would affect centre of gravity
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[21:56] <fsphil> actually that's a good idea for wet landings .. have floats instead of skis
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[21:56] <MNSP> only prob is the drag from parachute
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[22:00] <MNSP2> when I said skis, I was thinking more along the lines of pringle cans
[22:01] <MNSP2> but the more surface area there is the more buffeting is likely to occur. I would have thought
[22:01] <fsphil> yea, the wind will spin it around
[22:01] <fsphil> could make for an interesting descent
[22:02] <fsphil> I'll be flying some stripped coax on the next flight, with a straw over the end to keep it straight
[22:03] <MNSP2> when are you thinking of?
[22:03] <fsphil> the straw will crumple on landing, but the coax should stay in one piece
[22:03] <fsphil> was hoping for sunday but predictions are not so good
[22:04] <fsphil> won't rule it out until friday
[22:04] <MNSP2> cool, keep us updated. would love to try and track
[22:05] <NigeyS> phil do you still want the beacon ?
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[22:07] <fsphil> sure - always good to have a backup
[22:07] <fsphil> I'm building an rtty beacon but I don't think it'll be ready for sunday
[22:07] <fsphil> well, it's not so much a beacon - will have gps too
[22:08] <NigeyS> oki ill parcel it up now, havent done an antenna mind
[22:08] <fsphil> can sort something out - is there an antenna plug?
[22:10] <NigeyS> no, i was gonna just solder on a shagi
[22:11] <fsphil> has it got a case?
[22:11] <NigeyS> if you call bubblewrap a case..yeah ;)
[22:12] <fsphil> was thinking bubblewrap for it :D
[22:12] <NigeyS> it worked in the fridge in bubblewrap for 12 hours
[22:14] <fsphil> what is it transmitting?
[22:14] <NigeyS> not much, just plain text, a hello message, rtty freq and the tracker url
[22:19] <MNSP2> just to cut in here... are 4 aa batteries ok to power an arduino uno?
[22:20] <NigeyS> yups, it'll regulate it down to 5v anyway
[22:21] <MNSP2> cool, 9v lithium batts are at least £5 each
[22:24] <NigeyS> aye theyre not cheap
[22:27] <MNSP2> time to call it a day, g'night all :)
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[00:00] --- Wed May 18 2011