highaltitude.log.20110512

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[00:23] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AEO-4300KV-Brushless-Motor-55mm-RC-Ducted-Fan-EDF-OM133-/250744063077?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9086285468899349698 - Hmm.
[00:23] Action: SpeedEvil wishes he could believe that the figure of 90% of the theoretical efficiency was real.
[00:24] <SpeedEvil> (I get a figure of 177W needed to accellerate enough air to make 470g of thrust, they show 200W)
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[01:05] <W0OTM> ping natrium42
[01:05] <W0OTM> !ping natrium42
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[07:03] <eroomde> morning all
[07:03] <jonsowman> morning ed
[07:04] <eroomde> orning
[07:04] <eroomde> m
[07:04] <eroomde> brb
[07:06] <eroomde> right, unity isn't ready yet
[07:06] <eroomde> back to gnome
[07:06] <jonsowman> yes I think I'll be doing that too
[07:06] <jonsowman> what's wrong with unity?
[07:07] <eroomde> it just crashes too much, or is accidently activated when doing keyboard shortcuts for other things
[07:07] <jonsowman> oh ok
[07:07] <eroomde> it doesn't feel like it's been properly beded in yet
[07:07] <eroomde> bedded*
[07:07] <jonsowman> fair enough
[07:07] <eroomde> my top toolber, forex, often crashes every time i enable a compix plugin
[07:07] <jonsowman> I'm perfectly happy with gnome
[07:07] <jonsowman> oh, that's not good
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[08:34] <SamSilver> jcoxon: How did the spot fair?
[08:40] <jcoxon> SamSilver, its still running
[08:40] <jcoxon> wasn't great in the air
[08:40] <jcoxon> only a few points
[08:40] <SamSilver> okay
[08:40] <SamSilver> what is its altitude at the moment?
[08:41] <jcoxon> 90
[08:41] <SamSilver> ground level
[08:41] <jcoxon> well up a tree
[08:41] <SamSilver> ?
[08:41] <SamSilver> bugger
[08:41] <SamSilver> you got a plan for getting it down?
[08:41] <jcoxon> going to try tomorrow morning
[08:42] <SamSilver> http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/200801/C200792014474791351_Gasoline_Chain_saw_45_53_2_CC.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ecvv.com/product/1023838.html&usg=__ZcWwYtG-lzRrmivXGKPV12egYT4=&h=400&w=600&sz=23&hl=en&start=0&sig2=VzSxZSlzd9UszltC1dhiLQ&zoom=1&tbnid=2duZPdQEBgiT6M:&tbnh=105&tbnw=158&ei=ap3LTai1J5DEtAaAw8neAw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dchain%2Bsaw%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26
[08:43] <jcoxon> might have to
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[09:03] <SamSilver> bbl
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[09:50] <jcoxon> ping jonsowman
[09:52] <jonsowman> pong jcoxon
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[10:27] <jcoxon> ping RocketBoy
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[12:13] <danielsaul> Hiya, bit stuck on setting the FSK deviation... jonsowman told me I need 2v low and 2.2v high - just wondering how you'd go about doing that from a 0v low and 5v high?
[12:13] <eroomde> you can do it in a few ways
[12:13] <eroomde> the easiest is to use resistors set up as potential dividors
[12:13] <danielsaul> Obviously a potential divider can change the 5v high to 2.2v high, but how to change the low?
[12:13] <danielsaul> Yep
[12:14] <eroomde> you can do both with a potential dividor infact
[12:14] <eroomde> with 3 resistors
[12:14] <eroomde> 5v --- R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- GND
[12:14] <NigelMoby> Boo
[12:15] <danielsaul> Ah - yep, ok
[12:15] <eroomde> output between R2 and R3 goes to ntx2 and is set for 2v
[12:15] <NigelMoby> Hm u should try 1 pin rtty
[12:15] <eroomde> oh wait other way round (sorry, years since i did this!)
[12:16] <eroomde> ntx2 taps between R1 and R2
[12:16] <eroomde> to make 2.2V
[12:16] <eroomde> then between R2 and R3 you use an io pin
[12:16] <eroomde> and tie it to ground by setting the microcontroller pin to 0
[12:16] <eroomde> this bypasses R3
[12:16] <eroomde> so basically you can either shortcut R3 or not
[12:17] <danielsaul> Yep - thanks a lot
[12:17] <eroomde> this assumes you can do tri-state with your io pins
[12:18] <NigelMoby> There is another simpler way...
[12:18] <eroomde> i'm a dac fan personally
[12:18] <eroomde> that also means you can calibrate if you want to
[12:18] <eroomde> or do temperature compensation if you want (you don't need to)
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[12:19] <danielsaul> Yeah, just trying to get a little demo working the simplest way possible - Jon didnt think to tell me about the FSK deviation before the presentation we had to do the other week about apex... Now I just want to make it work before I take the breadboard apart ;)
[12:20] <eroomde> oh i see - you're one the apex team?
[12:20] <danielsaul> Yep, new member :)
[12:20] <danielsaul> *newest
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[12:21] <eroomde> ah cool
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[12:22] <fsphil> I must get some minions.. er, members to help out
[12:22] <eroomde> they'll take over before you know it :)
[12:23] <fsphil> I'd actually love to be at a launch where I can relax a bit :)
[12:24] <eroomde> :gggqG
[12:24] <eroomde> :wq
[12:24] <eroomde> oh blasted thing!!!
[12:24] <eroomde> how do I turn focus follows mouse off
[12:24] <eroomde> this is driving me up the wall
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: Just get into a nice deck-chair, and relax with your beer and pellet-gun you mean?
[12:24] <fsphil> lol
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Walters
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> Though I assume you got it.
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[12:26] <fsphil> haha, nah that went over my head
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[12:30] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeu_de_Gusm%C3%A3o
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> Or in short 'Lodestones - they work! No - really!'
[12:32] <NigeyS> hey SpeedEvil
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> Hey.
[12:33] Action: SpeedEvil realises Nige is just talking to boost his wordcount.
[12:33] <NigeyS> haha nooo
[12:33] <NigeyS> !top10
[12:33] <HAMBotty> Top10(words): 1. NigeyS(1601) 2. eroomde(1483) 3. fsphil(1464) 4. Randomskk(984) 5. jonsowman(934) 6. jcoxon(746) 7. MNSP(745) 8. Dan-K2VOL(584) 9. SpeedEvil(527) 10. ejcweb(447)
[12:33] <fsphil> aah man
[12:33] <NigeyS> me phil and ed have verbal diorreah lol
[12:34] <eroomde> maybe i should be less verbose
[12:34] <eroomde> lol.
[12:35] <NigeyS> lol
[12:35] <NigeyS> how is eroomde this afternoon then ?
[12:36] <eroomde> it's too windy and spitty to fly blimps
[12:36] <eroomde> this is upsetting
[12:37] <NigeyS> ach, the weather is being a bit nasty this last week :(
[12:38] <NigeyS> Ed what are your thoughts on the constants of nature? fine tuned to accomodate US, or just down to luck ?
[12:38] <eroomde> certainly not
[12:38] <eroomde> my gap year job was highly constrained by the saturation flex of ferro-metals
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> Meaningless noise.
[12:39] <SpeedEvil> It's not a useful question - much like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
[12:39] <eroomde> we couldn't make powerful enough magnetic bearings within the space constraints of a huge number of applications that would benefit from them
[12:39] <NigeyS> SpeedEvil, exactly!
[12:40] <eroomde> that's a narrow example, granted
[12:40] <NigeyS> magnetic bearings :D
[12:40] <eroomde> yup
[12:40] <NigeyS> eroomde, i see your point though
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: Well - you can.
[12:40] <eroomde> the aviation industry is lucky
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> But you need lHe
[12:40] <eroomde> one doesn't mind sitting for 5 hours to get to america
[12:40] <NigeyS> surely if they were fine tuned, then we need a fine tuner, hence a creator .. = unholy mess
[12:40] <eroomde> imagine if the speed of sound was 200mph?
[12:41] <fsphil> I don't mind sitting for 5 hours to get to america, is the examination they give you on arrival...
[12:41] Action: SpeedEvil is still pissed he probably won't get to fly on a supersonic passenger transport.
[12:41] <SpeedEvil> I did however hear concorde on its last run up the coast.
[12:41] <NigeyS> isnt there a company somewhere trying to buy a concorde to bring it back in to service ?
[12:42] <SpeedEvil> Sounds doubtful.
[12:42] <SpeedEvil> The reason it stopped flying was that the maintainance company diddn't want to maintain it anymore.
[12:42] <SpeedEvil> So put in a bid for future maintainance of a large multiple of the current cost.
[12:42] <SpeedEvil> Well - the proximal cause.
[12:42] Action: Laurenceb_ saw concorde in flight once
[12:42] <NigeyS> ahh, thats a shame
[12:42] <Laurenceb_> in about 1991
[12:43] <NigeyS> we seem to be going backwards in technology in some respects
[12:43] <Laurenceb_> couldnt afford a ride tho :(
[12:43] <fsphil> Never seen the concorde, but I bet a few flew over my house
[12:43] <Laurenceb_> i was at heathrow
[12:44] <Laurenceb_> with my cousin planespotting lol
[12:44] <LazyLeopard> Concorde used to go over my school every afternoon on its way to NY. Noisy, it was...
[12:44] <NigeyS> only saw it once at cardiff airport, a thing of sheer neauty
[12:44] <NigeyS> beauty*
[12:44] <fsphil> I've always wanted to hear the shuttle sonic boom on landing - not much chance of that now though
[12:44] <NigeyS> double sonic boom .. yum yum !
[12:45] <NigeyS> i bet you get to feel it aswell as hear it if your close enough
[12:46] Action: SpeedEvil hopes spaceX gets the space tourism market moving properly.
[12:47] <NigeyS> and safely
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> If I had a large slice of cash - one of the first things I'd do would be to sponsor minimal personal reentry systems.
[12:47] <NigeyS> you realise the first person to unfortunately die on a commercial space flight will mean the end of commercial space ?
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> That are designed to get a fit person down to the ground, in a +-500km or so radius.
[12:48] <SpeedEvil> With a 95% chance of making it.
[12:49] <NigeyS> whats the soyuz landing area ?
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> I mean _really_ minimal.
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> As in weighs less than the occupant.
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[12:50] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOOSE for example.
[12:50] <eroomde> NigeyS: i'm not sure that's true
[12:50] <eroomde> i think everyone is fairly sure that someone will get blown up at some point
[12:50] <eroomde> in the industry, that is
[12:50] <NigeyS> i hope it's not Ed, but i can just see the poor commercial company getting all the blame and everything being handed back to nasa .. or whats left of nasa
[12:51] <eroomde> I don't see that
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[12:51] <eroomde> private space flight is already too big for that
[12:51] <NigeyS> tbh i think it'll depend whose in the white house, you know how fickle the congress can be
[12:52] <NigeyS> SpeedEvil, now thats what you call minimal!
[12:52] <SpeedEvil> Indeed - I mean as an extra layer of safety.
[12:53] <SpeedEvil> If you can tack another '9' onto your existing craft for times when you can predict reentry failures, it's a good thing.
[12:53] <SpeedEvil> But of course you can't design for failure!
[12:54] <NigeyS> hmm do you really forsee the "hotels" in space idea though ?
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> I hope so.
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> space solar looks good
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> Indeed - _lots_ look good if you can drop the cost to orbit by an order of magnitude.
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> prices are comparable with coal if you have cheapish launch
[12:55] <Laurenceb_> like falcon 9 heavy
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> Personally, I'm fine with fission.
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> and lots of off the shelf thin film panel
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> Did I link that cheap solar-steam engine?
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> Oh - no you did
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> you get an order of mag more output in space
[12:56] <NigeyS> true
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> If you're out of the shadow
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> Which means >LEO
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> Which boosts losses.
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> solar thermal in space doesnt work
[12:57] <Laurenceb_> geostationary
[12:57] <NigeyS> what's the deal with the ion drives, can that only ever be designed to be powerful whilst in space as opposed to launching into space ?
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> And means you need truly large stations to get the microwave antenna large enough.
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> NigeyS: basically, yes.
[12:57] <NigeyS> shame :(
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> Space charge kills it for higher thrust.
[12:57] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: not if you ignore power/m^2 limits
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> Also - the amount of energy you need per newton is truly insane.
[12:57] <NigeyS> good point
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Even if you ignore them - you need to make a spot on the ground.
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> 1km radius is feasible
[12:58] <NigeyS> 1k? :o
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: The rectenna can't feasibly be used when it recieves under 1w/m^2 say
[12:58] <Laurenceb_> if the panel is nice and big
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> That's still a transmitting antenna of 4km across if I've got my envelope right.
[12:59] <Laurenceb_> oh you want it much bigger
[12:59] <Laurenceb_> tens of km radius at least
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> yeah - that's the rayleigh critereon.
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> you'd want it a little bigger
[12:59] <NigeyS> 50km :D thats a nice size
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> Too large and it becomes an arms control issue though too.
[13:00] <Laurenceb_> but it needs to be that big to generate lots of power
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> Which complicates things.
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> If you can put >>10kW/m^2 onto the earth, it's a weapon.
[13:01] <Laurenceb_> 50km radius solar panel could output 1TW O_o
[13:02] <SpeedEvil> Now compute the power density if you can focus it on one spot.
[13:02] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:02] <Laurenceb_> ~MW/m^2
[13:03] <SpeedEvil> ~100s I think.
[13:03] <SpeedEvil> Worthy of the title 'death ray' I think.
[13:03] <Laurenceb_> like a directional nuclear bomb :P
[13:05] <staylo> I shall call it.. the Alan Parsons Project.
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[13:15] <NigeyS> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/life-and-physics/2011/may/11/1
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[14:47] <Josh_> hi everyone
[14:47] <Josh_> just needed a hand with some helium probs
[14:48] <Josh_> is there much difference in the high grade helium and the normal balloon grade stuff?
[14:48] <Josh_> i just rang BOC and for the high grade stuff it will cost me around £237
[14:48] <Josh_> whereas normal balloon helium (98%) would only cost me £80
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[14:53] <fsphil> no significant difference
[14:54] <Josh_> great :D thanks
[14:54] <Josh_> that's what i wanted to hear
[14:54] <Josh_> just gotta hope that the filling head matches the filling equipment at CUSF
[14:54] <fsphil> BOC? should be fine
[14:55] <Josh_> yeah it will probs be BOC
[14:55] <fsphil> not that I can speak for CUSF mind :)
[14:55] <Josh_> :) i'll double check with jonsowman
[14:56] <Josh_> the guy on the phone said the adaptors are all relatively the same
[15:03] <fsphil> they are
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[15:03] <fsphil> I think Air Products have another type but it's not too common
[15:03] <Josh_> ok thanks
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[15:05] <Elwell> I suspect baloon stuff won't work to cool the LHC :-)
[15:06] <NigeyS> heh
[15:06] <NigeyS> dont they use over a ton of He to cool those magnets ?
[15:08] <Laurenceb_> board of canada?
[15:09] <fsphil> Bringer of Cookies
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> Josh_: Air inside and air outside are hte same density at all altitudes. So what 2% of extra air inside does is increases the diameter by .8% or so.
[15:13] <Dan-K2VOL> Josh_ make sure that you do not get "balloon gas", which has a LOT of air mixed in purposely to give party balloons just enough lift to lift their string
[15:13] <Randomskk> Josh_: BOC is great for cusf
[15:14] <Randomskk> air products do use an annoyingly different connector :P
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> .8% is on the order of 50 meters.
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> (in terms of burst diameter)
[15:14] <Randomskk> you mean, .8% of 50 meters, or .8% = 50 meters
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> No.
[15:14] <Josh_> hmmmm i see
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> .8% atmospheric pressure difference.
[15:15] <SpeedEvil> (.8%^3 = 2%)
[15:15] <Randomskk> "increases the diameter by .8% or so."
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> Compared to an identical balloon at the same altitude with no air inside.
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> The lift is identical.
[15:16] <Randomskk> right, yea.
[15:16] <SpeedEvil> (for a given volume of helium)
[15:16] <Josh_> how much of a difference does this make? are we talking a lower altitude bursting point?
[15:16] <Randomskk> it really makes no difference
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> Josh_: It bursts 50m or so lower
[15:17] <Josh_> ok i see
[15:17] <SpeedEvil> Josh_: You could perhaps measure this with a few dozen balloons and careful measurement. But not practically.
[15:17] <Randomskk> too many other variables have more of an effect I think
[15:17] <Randomskk> you'd need very careful measurement
[15:17] <Josh_> because i was give the two options of high grade helium (£237) or normal balloon helium (£81)
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> If the 'normal' one is 98%, then it's just fine
[15:18] <Josh_> specifically it was the T cylinder on this table i think
[15:18] <Josh_> http://www.boconline.co.uk/products/gas_supply_options/helium_gas_cylinder_options.asp
[15:18] <Josh_> as I need 3 cm3 of helium to launch
[15:19] <fsphil> It's what I used, and I got 33.3km :)
[15:20] <NigeyS> SpeedEvil, when i called box a few weks back
[15:20] <Josh_> sweeeet! :D i have an 800g payload with an 800g balloon
[15:20] <NigeyS> the balloon helium was 99.5% pure
[15:20] <NigeyS> boc*
[15:20] <fsphil> (I used a 1000g balloon and 510g payload, with ascent rate of 3.5m/s)
[15:20] <Josh_> my ascent rate is 5.6m/s
[15:21] <fsphil> my next one will be about that speed
[15:21] <fsphil> won't go as high but also keeps the landing site a bit closer
[15:21] <NigeyS> £81.83 + vat josh for a T cylinder
[15:21] <NigeyS> + £6.80 rental
[15:21] <Josh_> cool! i should get about 29633m with that
[15:22] <Josh_> thanks NigeyS....i wonder if that includes delivery/collection
[15:22] <NigeyS> no
[15:22] <NigeyS> delivery is £ 42.55 + vat
[15:22] <fsphil> I collected from the local BOC place, didn't have to pay delivery
[15:22] <NigeyS> at 42quid id get a bloody taxi if i had to, lol
[15:23] <Josh_> haha! true i wonder where the local one is
[15:23] <Josh_> store finder :D
[15:23] <Randomskk> sigh. this solenoid has to be run at 18V to manage to actuate my stupid mechanism
[15:23] <Randomskk> step up time
[15:23] Action: SpeedEvil ponders mentioning placards.
[15:24] <NigeyS> Josh_,
[15:24] <NigeyS> http://twitpic.com/4wo39c
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[15:26] <Josh_> Thanks NigeyS....they charge for collection as well! ha!!!
[15:26] <Elwell> NigeyS: and the rest...
[15:26] <NigeyS> hehe its certainly not cheap
[15:26] <fsphil> hmm.. I'm not charged for collection either
[15:26] <NigeyS> Elwell, ?
[15:27] <NigeyS> btw the filling kit is also an extra cost..lol
[15:27] <Josh_> slightly off-topic here.....but how do you speak to someone specifically but on this same chat window? i've been trying to figure that out ever since i first came on this chat
[15:27] <Josh_> lol
[15:27] <NigeyS> £11.45 plus vat
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Josh_: What client are you using?\
[15:27] <Josh_> make it go red and beep and make you feel important
[15:27] <fsphil> lol
[15:27] <Randomskk> Josh_: usually /msg <name> <message> and then it will open a new tab for them
[15:28] <Randomskk> but if you just want someone to see a message, say their nick and often their client will highlight it
[15:28] <Josh_> Randomskk: Thanks!
[15:28] <NigeyS> like this .. Randomskk Randomskk Randomskk :p
[15:28] <Josh_> hmmm
[15:28] <Randomskk> :p
[15:28] <Josh_> did that work? :D
[15:28] Action: NigeyS hides
[15:29] <Randomskk> it did
[15:29] <Josh_> awesome! :D
[15:29] <Elwell> He @ LHC = 96 * 10^3 kg, so 96 tonnes
[15:29] <SpeedEvil> It's entirely at their clients side choice though.
[15:29] <NigeyS> 96 :o
[15:29] <NigeyS> christ
[15:29] <Elwell> https://edms.cern.ch/file/445856/5/Vol_1_Chapter_11.pdf
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> There are various refrigerator technologies that are good for reducing heluum.
[15:30] <Elwell> 'CRYOGEN STORAGE AND MANAGEMENT' bit
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[15:30] <SpeedEvil> Magnetic refrigeration, for example.
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[15:31] <NigeyS> thats mental
[15:31] <Josh_> can someone let me know what language this is in?
[15:31] <Josh_> The superconducting magnet windings in arcs, dispersion suppressors and inner triplets will be immersed in a pressurised bath of superfluid helium at about 0.13 MPa (1.3 bar) and a maximum temperature of 1.9 K [7, 8].
[15:32] <Josh_> :D
[15:32] <Elwell> Josh_: 'science'
[15:32] <NigeyS> heh
[15:32] <Josh_> haha
[15:32] <Elwell> basically the superfluid bit is what makes it funky
[15:32] <NigeyS> superfluids are fun!
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> Superfluids are insane.
[15:33] <fsphil> they're weird!
[15:33] <NigeyS> can't remember what the superfluid was, but saw an experiment before where it was able to drip through the glass beaker
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> It's not quite that
[15:33] <SpeedEvil> It flows up the lip of the container, and off the bottom.
[15:33] <Dan-K2VOL> nigeys actually that may be helium
[15:34] <NigeyS> ooo
[15:34] <NigeyS> funky stuff though
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Aren't there just two superfluids?
[15:34] <Elwell> yeah, you try explaining to someone how 'well, we put liquid helium in here and well it coats the entire surface with no surface tension'
[15:34] <NigeyS> hi Dan btw, didn't see you over there, you're so quiet! :p
[15:34] <SpeedEvil> Liquid helium - and Castrol makes one?
[15:34] <Josh_> guys at roughly what height does a gps/gsm tracker stop working?
[15:34] <Dan-K2VOL> hehe working for once, NigeyS
[15:35] <hibby> Josh_: experimentally, our results showed 500->1000m
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> Josh_: If it stops working, i'tll be 60000 feet.
[15:35] <NigeyS> josh gsm is approx 1km ..depending on network
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> Oops
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> Missed the second half
[15:35] <NigeyS> Dan-K2VOL, STOP WORKING! :P
[15:35] <Dan-K2VOL> Haha
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> It depends on how well the antennas are pointed at the base-station, and exaclty where you come down
[15:35] <Josh_> thanks guys
[15:35] <SpeedEvil> The antennas are pointed just below the horizon, to minimise interference and maximise footprint per power.
[15:36] <SpeedEvil> Any beam pointed upwards is simply wasted.
[15:36] <Josh_> my tracker doesn't have a beam....lol, it's just a small box
[15:37] <Josh_> and it'll be stuck inside a payload without an antennae
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> The GSM antenna at the base-station has a precisely calibrated radiation and sensitivity pattern.
[15:37] <Dan-K2VOL> Hey all, I'm hosting an oscilloscope beginner workshop May 21 at 2000 UTC on our ustream http://ustre.am/oIad if anyone wants to learn a bit about how to use a scope
[15:37] <Elwell> *boggle* "in normal cool down of a sector ... consume 1260 tonnes of liquid nitrogen
[15:38] <hibby> Josh_: it'll have an antenna built in, and when we say beam we mean the radiation pattern of the gsm base station
[15:38] <Josh_> i see
[15:38] <Josh_> thanks
[15:38] <Elwell> wait, thats per-sector, so 8* that for the machine!
[15:39] <Josh_> SpeedEvil: I meant when it will stop sending gps locations not stop working altogether.....sorry, my fault for not explaining clear :D
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> GSM will stop working abruptly.
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> The GPS itself is likely to work up to at least 60000 feet.
[15:40] <Josh_> ok....then it should remain on provided there is sufficient heat in the payload and wait until it comes to within 60000 feet to start transmitting data again
[15:40] Nick change: hibby -> Hibby
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> You also have a radio transmitter of some sort?
[15:42] <Josh_> no....we are hoping someone could piggy back there arduino on board our payload
[15:42] <Josh_> we just dont have the ability to make our own arduino and do the coding stuff....even after reading through alot of material
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> You can use an actual arduino if you want to.
[15:43] <Hibby> and there's prebuilt code available you can borrow.
[15:45] <Josh_> how much would this kinda stuff cost?
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[15:45] <Josh_> this bloody helium has forced to find some funding and support anyway :D
[15:47] <Hibby> Josh_: i would say you could get an arduino+radio+batteries+gps for £70ish, maybe?
[15:47] <Josh_> thanks Hibby. i think if we can find enough funding then we could go down that route
[15:47] <Hibby> however the tradeoff is that we're able to track it as well as you, and you'll know where it is, and where it's going to land, not 20 seconds of telemetry for a whole flight
[15:47] <Josh_> true ^
[15:48] <Hibby> so you know how high you got / where you flew over / any other interesting data that's available
[15:48] <Josh_> i'd also need to think about paying someone to actually set it up and making it work as well
[15:48] <Josh_> i'd love to watch and get the knowledge in but it would be too time consuming me sitting down and reading the instruction manuals.... :D
[15:48] <Hibby> really? I've got code and an associated instruction book i tend to give away.
[15:51] <Josh_> that could be very useful....would it be suitable for an absolute beginner? a 'for dummies' guise? :D
[15:51] <Josh_> guide*
[15:52] <Hibby> was designed for mechanical engineering students who were too lazy to bother to even think about learning any programming/basic electronics over a 5 month period
[15:52] <Hibby> so pretty much, aye
[15:53] <Josh_> haha!
[15:54] <Josh_> i'd love to give it a shot then
[15:55] <Josh_> if you could provide me it or some of it, i'd be very gratefull
[15:55] <Hibby> the code lives at https://github.com/Hibby/Strathclyde-HAB-Project
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[15:56] <Hibby> and the pdf lives at http://db.tt/5OZPoYd
[15:57] <Josh_> thankyou so much!
[15:58] <Josh_> really aprreciate it and will try and implement an arduino
[15:58] <Josh_> how heavy are they for teh payload?
[15:58] <Hibby> they can be anywhere from a couple of hundred grams to a couple of tens of grams
[15:59] <Josh_> hmmm a couple of tens of grams would be best
[16:00] <Hibby> depending on the version you used. I would use just the chip, but that's not beginner friendly, but the nano or something is a good model to look at
[16:01] <Josh_> ok cool
[16:02] <Josh_> i'm gonna try and fit it in and get this done
[16:02] <Josh_> would love to have my own custom built one on board
[16:02] <Josh_> if i don't manage it, what are the chances that someone could put one in my payload is? i have plenty of room O:)
[16:07] <SamSilver> http://www.gizmag.com/iphly-lets-users-fly-rc-airplanes-using-their-iphone/18608/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=c77a079881-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email
[16:09] <cuddykid> Hi all, just got in
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[16:10] <Hibby> Josh_: I'm sure you'll find someone supportive. I won't be much use as I'm soon to spend a large chunk of this year in the US
[16:11] <Josh_> ok well thanks for your help anyway Hibby
[16:11] <Josh_> you can follow my progress at my blog if you like
[16:11] <Josh_> www.joshingtalk.com
[16:12] <Hibby> will keep my eyes open
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[16:17] <cuddykid> Josh_: looks a great blog
[16:19] <eroomde> Josh_: where are you located?
[16:20] <Josh_> i'm in surrey, uk
[16:21] <Josh_> cuddykid: thanks!
[16:21] <eroomde> where abouts in surrey?
[16:21] <Josh_> haslemere, south of guildford bu about 15 mins in the car
[16:21] <eroomde> oh right
[16:21] <eroomde> i am a chiddingfolder child
[16:21] <Josh_> serious!
[16:21] <Josh_> i'm a grayswood boy
[16:21] <eroomde> fo realz
[16:21] Action: russss used to live in Haslemere once upon a time
[16:21] <eroomde> small world
[16:21] <eroomde> i now live in cam
[16:22] <Josh_> sweeet
[16:22] <Josh_> i've lived in gwood all my life, 20 yrs
[16:22] <eroomde> my rents now live in arundel
[16:23] <Josh_> ah ok, when did you move from chidd?
[16:23] <Josh_> i played footy for them for 10 odd years
[16:23] <eroomde> haven't really lived at home since university
[16:23] <Josh_> are you still at uni?
[16:24] <eroomde> but we left chid over 10- years ago :)
[16:24] <eroomde> nope, graduated in June
[16:24] <Josh_> ahh i see!
[16:24] <eroomde> well, actually I am still at university but not as a student
[16:24] <Josh_> a teacher? at cam?
[16:24] <eroomde> I don't do much teaching! 90% research
[16:25] <eroomde> in the computer vision lab
[16:25] <Josh_> oh ok, sweet!
[16:26] <Josh_> researching anything interesting at the moment?
[16:27] <eroomde> yeah, on a fairly interesting project at the moment
[16:27] <eroomde> we've built a robotic airship to fly over glacial and avalanche regions that builds 3D temperature maps (using computer vision)
[16:29] <cuddykid> that sounds very cool eroomde
[16:30] <cuddykid> what degree did you do? engineering?
[16:30] <eroomde> there you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K29dn0Mzspk
[16:30] <eroomde> cuddykid: yes
[16:30] <cuddykid> nice!!
[16:33] <Josh_> niceeee
[16:33] <ejcweb> eroomde: Looks great!
[16:35] <eroomde> the interesting bit is in the reconstruction from the video
[16:35] <Dan-K2VOL> Eroomde what's the max winds you can fly it in
[16:35] <Dan-K2VOL> Does it auto-crab into the wind?
[16:35] <eroomde> 25kmh
[16:35] <Dan-K2VOL> decent
[16:35] <eroomde> nope, it tends to just be taken by it :)
[16:36] <eroomde> the autopilot has to work pretty hard
[16:36] <Dan-K2VOL> Ahh lol
[16:36] <Dan-K2VOL> crabbing is pretty easy to do, and you can adjust on the fly for it without knowing the wind speed or direction
[16:36] <Dan-K2VOL> But I'm sure you've explored such things :-)
[16:37] <Dan-K2VOL> I just recall learning how to do it as a human pilot
[16:37] <eroomde> that's what the autopilot does - crabbing
[16:37] <eroomde> it doesn't inherently autocrab though!
[16:38] <Dan-K2VOL> And it was tedious to keep checking the actual vs. planned course as a wet brain, but sounds like a great job for the comp
[16:38] <Dan-K2VOL> So you just set the crab angle?
[16:38] <eroomde> in these videos i was the pilot
[16:38] <eroomde> no autopilot
[16:38] <eroomde> so i did it by eye
[16:38] <Dan-K2VOL> i'll have to watch tonight
[16:38] <eroomde> so for example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Ec9fuy5zc&feature=related
[16:39] <eroomde> that landing was difficult because it wanted to swing round and point with the wind, i had to keep it pointing *into* the wind despite the motor failure
[16:39] <eroomde> it's unstable, basically
[16:39] <eroomde> but in most other respects it's a very nice thing to autopilot
[16:39] <eroomde> slow and simple dynamics
[16:40] <Dan-K2VOL> Yeah, I saw the goodyear blimp land this weekend here, and it was a very poor blimp landing, it's an ungainly type of ship
[16:40] <Dan-K2VOL> I've see good blimp landings
[16:40] <eroomde> the power to drag ratio is just orders of magnitude worse than, say, a quadcopter or aeroplane
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> The motors were totally out - or only working at low revs?
[16:41] <Dan-K2VOL> Heh yeah
[16:41] <Josh_> looks good! i'm heading off now guys but thanks for all your help and advice! have a good day!
[16:41] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: totally out
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> I suppose the major other annoyance is that flight speed approaches windspeed
[16:42] <eroomde> the speed controller shut them down - it does that so theres a few mAh left to control the flaps
[16:43] <eroomde> but you gotta get it turned into the wind really quickly when that happens cos otherwise you loose all momentum to get a relative air speed over the control surfaces
[16:43] <eroomde> and you just get blown down the mountain
[16:43] <eroomde> one into the wind the drag is very much lower
[16:43] <eroomde> Cd is something crazy like 0.02
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> It's falling.
[16:43] <eroomde> yes
[16:43] <eroomde> neutrally bouyant
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> So you have _some_ airflow over the flaps.
[16:44] <eroomde> *precisely* for this kind of thing
[16:44] <eroomde> well, not over the rudder
[16:44] <eroomde> sorry, negativelly byoyant
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[16:44] <eroomde> don't really need the other flaps, just the rudder
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> I mean the rudder.
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> Though it's not a flap in aeronautical terms.
[16:46] <eroomde> i don't really know my aero terminology
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[16:49] <SpeedEvil> Flaps as things on wings which modify the geometry to reduce stall speed, I mean.
[16:49] <ejcweb> eroomde: Is that an off-the-shelf blimp? Or is it modified a lot for your use?
[16:51] <eroomde> ejcweb: pretty much off the shelf
[16:51] <eroomde> minizepp.com
[16:51] <eroomde> we have made a few modifications
[16:51] <eroomde> and the instrument pod is all ours
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[16:52] <ejcweb> All sounds (and looks) very cool.
[16:52] Nick change: M0JSN-mob -> Jon-M0JSN
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[17:04] <NigeyS> anyone wanna come and do my housework for me? :(
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[17:42] <RocketBoy> eroomde: ````do you have any contact with Roland von Glasow : http://www.uea.ac.uk/~fkd06bju/ ?
[17:44] <RocketBoy> http://www.uea.ac.uk/~fkd06bju/blimp.jpg
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[17:51] Nick change: BrainDamage1 -> BrainDamage
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[18:15] <mattltm> Hi all :)
[18:18] <cuddykid> cable ties arrived today courtesy of cableties-direct! Fantastic service if anyone is looking for any in the future!
[18:19] <mattltm> Man! I want one of these for HAB tracking/remote launches...
[18:19] <mattltm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2FLvLvJeP0
[18:19] <fsphil> The hair style?
[18:20] <mattltm> Oh, that too please!
[18:21] <fsphil> quite nifty
[18:35] Action: Laurenceb has lsm303dlh working correctly
[18:36] <Laurenceb> turns out it had i2c timeout issues
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[18:58] <W0OTM> !lastseen natrium42
[19:01] <W0OTM> WOW
[19:01] <W0OTM> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHvsn7LWSt0&feature=related
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[19:32] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: What private school did you con into thinking we're interesting? :-p
[19:34] <NigeyS> lol Zuph
[19:35] <NigeyS> hey jcoxon :)
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[19:47] <Zuph> How is everyone today?
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[20:03] <eroomde> All: CUSF are giving a talk at EADS Astrium in Stevenage on Tuesday
[20:04] <eroomde> It's to the Royal Aeronautical Society
[20:04] <eroomde> if you want to come
[20:04] <eroomde> it's a trivial train-trip from london
[20:04] <jcoxon> eroomde, thats teh one day next week i'm busy
[20:04] <jcoxon> :-(
[20:04] Action: fsphil starts digging the tunnel
[20:05] <eroomde> https://sites.google.com/site/raesstevenage/project-updates/agmlecturefromcuspaceflight
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[20:31] <mattltm> So...
[20:31] <mattltm> When dl uploads data to the server, could it also output to a local page?
[20:32] <fsphil> I still like the idea of doing a special xmlrpc command for querying it
[20:32] <mattltm> Would that need dl to be re-compiled?
[20:32] <mattltm> IE. Not already a function?
[20:33] <fsphil> you can read the text window but not the last received line box
[20:33] <fsphil> could have a command for getting the line, or the translated coordinates
[20:33] <mattltm> Would be good to read the top boxes.
[20:33] <mattltm> That way the data has been checked already.
[20:34] <fsphil> yea
[20:34] <mattltm> Could it call a url?
[20:34] <mattltm> Like when it uploads the string?
[20:35] <fsphil> xmlrpc works the opposite way, but what you could also do is configure it to upload the string to a local server
[20:35] <fsphil> that server can then forward it on to robs
[20:36] <griffonbot> @CollegeARC: Great job K2GXT! #hamr #hamradio #ARHAB http://fb.me/HsURsJ3B [http://twitter.com/CollegeARC/status/68776477918896128]
[20:38] <mattltm> Im thinking like http://(tracker host name)/report.php?name=payloadname&time=10:00&lat=54.445566&long=00.445566&alt=90000
[20:38] <mattltm> so you can excute a simple scripeon the antenna tracker
[20:39] <mattltm> Athough getting bearing and alt would be good insted of lat/long
[20:40] <fsphil> or drive the tracker directly, if it uses a standard protocol - if there is such a thing for trackers
[20:42] <mattltm> im not sure. There must be for al/ez sat trackers.
[20:43] <griffonbot> Received email: Edward Moore "[UKHAS] CUSF Talk to RAeS at Stevenage Astrium 17.05.2011"
[20:43] <fsphil> wonder what format gpredict uses
[20:45] <mattltm> I know that someone else tried to make a auto tracker but there is not much info on it.
[20:48] <mattltm> sending the bearing and alt via bluetooth may be fun too.
[20:48] <mattltm> or xbee
[20:48] <fsphil> looks like a simple ascii command: "P %s %s\x0a"
[20:48] <fsphil> %s %s is the az and el positions, formatted as %7.2f
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[20:49] <fsphil> it sends that command over the network
[20:49] <fsphil> so you could use the wifi
[20:49] <fsphil> should be easy to get fldigi doing that too
[20:49] <fsphil> simple TCP connection from the looks of it
[20:50] <fsphil> means it can work with gpredict too do you can do satellites as well as balloons
[20:50] <mattltm> that sounds nice.
[20:51] <mattltm> So the arduino would need to get the string in that format and move the servos to mach
[20:51] <fsphil> yep
[20:51] <fsphil> "p\x0a" returns the current position
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> I question if the arduino software can do PWM at the same time as - probably - software serial.
[20:52] <fsphil> those are the only two commands that gpredict supports, so it's pretty simple
[20:52] <mattltm> I dbout it.
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> The AVR certainly can.
[20:53] <mattltm> Looks like I need to get myself an AVR then :)
[20:53] <BrainDamage> an arduino is an avr
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> AVR is inside the arduino.
[20:53] <mattltm> Duuuuuh!
[20:54] <Hibby> well, technically the arduino is only the bootloader, isn't it?
[20:54] <SpeedEvil> It's just that 'arduino' layers a lot of dodgy user-friendlieness over it.
[20:54] <BrainDamage> I call arduino the whole system
[20:54] <mattltm> lol. User friendlieness sucks!
[20:54] <BrainDamage> programmer, programming libs, bootloader, etc
[20:54] <BrainDamage> and board ofc
[20:56] <fsphil> Can a homebrew tracker be made weatherproof?
[20:56] <mattltm> I dont see why not :)
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[20:57] <fsphil> I don't see how something that moves can be made water tight
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> Fill it with vaseline.
[20:58] <SpeedEvil> A 2-axis, or a 1-axis tracker?
[20:58] <fsphil> 2
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> In general, fairly simple stuff like making any openings face downwards, and having a splash/rain cover over the whole thing will work.
[21:00] Action: SpeedEvil is currently working out what I he could use a 4kW solar collector for.
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[21:06] <BrainDamage> SpeedEvil: death ray
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> Ant-death, maybe.
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> Or maybe rat.
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> (wondering about that nifty outdoor mirror film from 3m)
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[21:09] <BrainDamage> I wonder about non convenctional uses, long range laser lan bridge?
[21:11] <BrainDamage> or maybe something weirder, steam powered fridge?
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> I have idly been wondering about that.
[21:11] Action: SpeedEvil looks at his icy balls.
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icy_Ball
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> Also - solar cooker.
[21:12] <SpeedEvil> But not quite your standard solar cooker - solar concentrator that heats up a thermal reservoir that you can then use to cook with.
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[21:24] Action: Laurenceb has mano working
[21:24] <Laurenceb> *magno
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> Woooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> Dead part?
[21:25] <Laurenceb> no
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> Or PEBAC.
[21:25] <Laurenceb> it has a timeout
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> ^K
[21:26] <Laurenceb> after i2c start you need to tx address
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> not in the datasheet?
[21:26] <Laurenceb> ino
[21:26] <Laurenceb> *no
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> Sigh.
[21:26] <Laurenceb> seems to be an SMbus type inplimentation
[21:27] <Laurenceb> looks like about 500us timeout or something
[21:27] <SpeedEvil> So 'bit bang' type impleentations are likely to fail.
[21:27] <Laurenceb> data looks okish.. field seems to be about 10 to 15% lower than the field models suggest
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[21:28] <SpeedEvil> helmholtz?
[21:28] <Laurenceb> maybe the building sheilding it or something
[21:28] <Laurenceb> - tested in a steel framed lab
[21:28] <SpeedEvil> ah
[21:29] <Laurenceb> ill try running some cal code on it tomorrow
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> :)
[21:31] <Laurenceb> http://www.st.com/internet/analog/product/251940.jsp
[21:31] <Laurenceb> ^niceee
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[21:32] <SpeedEvil> Differences? Smaller?
[21:33] <MNSP> Hello All :)
[21:33] <SpeedEvil> Ah - smaller and 16G
[21:33] <Laurenceb> lga14 and single supply
[21:33] <Laurenceb> yeah
[21:33] <fsphil> hiya MNSP
[21:34] <SpeedEvil> OIh - single supply - nice.
[21:34] <Laurenceb> also the lsm303dlm gets rid of the 1.8v supply and same footprint XD
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[21:37] <Laurenceb> i spoke to an st engineer, they should have 9 axis samples ready in ~2 months
[21:37] <Laurenceb> also they are hiring for their mems team if anyone wants a job XD
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> Interesting!
[21:37] Action: SpeedEvil wonders what other sensors you coild integrate.
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> Cosmic rays?
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> :)
[21:38] <Laurenceb> you saw the baked bean can particle detectors?
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> Neutrino detector would actually be good if you could get a nice 3-axis fix.
[21:38] <Laurenceb> very cool
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> Seems unlikely though.
[21:38] <Laurenceb> i was wondering if you could stick a drift chamber inside a blimp
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> I suppose the next 'obvious' thing is intefration.
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> Wake on gesture - that sort of thing.
[21:39] <Laurenceb> tow fusor reactor over landmine area, fire it up and then use the drift chamber to find the mines
[21:39] <Laurenceb> - nitrogen in explosives absorbs the neutrons
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> Sounds tricky.
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> Also you get anitrogenous explosives.
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> Admittedly, not many.
[21:41] <BrainDamage> I'm fond of the hogbard's funnies minesweeper
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[21:41] <Laurenceb> oh the chain thing
[21:42] <BrainDamage> hobart, sorry
[21:42] <BrainDamage> yeah
[21:42] <Laurenceb> nice and simple i gues
[21:42] <Laurenceb> i was wondering about magnetic permittivity tomography
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[21:43] <Laurenceb> with earth field
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[21:44] <Laurenceb> kind of like the archaeological surveys only with better processing
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> Neat!
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> Take a GPS + magno + accel + ...
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> A small dog. A wireless dog fence collar.
[21:45] <MNSP> cuddley toy?
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Place fence wire around site, and pulse to create magnetic field.
[21:45] <Laurenceb> it needs really high accuracy field
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Let dog wander around mapping permittivity responses.
[21:45] <Laurenceb> maybe squids would work
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Squids are a problem.
[21:46] <Laurenceb> uav mounted would be very hard
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> You need to make them little 'drysuits'
[21:46] <BrainDamage> squirrels?
[21:46] <Laurenceb> maybe blimp and let it drift across in the wind with no power
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[21:47] <Laurenceb> if you can measure the earths field with squid type accuracy you could do some interesting tomography
[21:47] <MNSP> did someine mention squirrels?
[21:47] <Laurenceb> squirrels heartbeat might interfere - squids are that sensitive
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> I don't think proton precession magnetometers are that accurate nowadays even compared to MEMs are they?
[21:48] <Laurenceb> no
[21:48] <Laurenceb> you have a decay time of 4s or so, that limits the accuracy
[21:48] <Laurenceb> they are way better than mems
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> But isn't it 3KHz or so at earth field/
[21:48] <Laurenceb> fluxgate is good, and used in archaeology
[21:48] <Laurenceb> yes
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> So resolution of maybe hmm
[21:49] <Laurenceb> but you want parts per million or billion
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> I suppose you should get a couple of degrees without _too_ much hastle.
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> Which would be parts per hundred thousand or maybe a bit more.
[21:49] <Laurenceb> thats the sort of performance fluxgate gets
[21:50] <Laurenceb> and much faster
[21:50] <Laurenceb> i was thinking if you used something better than fluxgate and tried to do proper 3D imagery
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> Fluxgate can do 3d thogh
[21:51] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3030-mag.jpg
[21:51] <Laurenceb> 3d tomography
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[21:51] <Laurenceb> reconstruct the grounds magnetic properties in 3D
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> Nanotesla...
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> You mean detect permittivity as not only measured by the earths field?
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> Or by the earths field.
[21:52] <Laurenceb> im not sure
[21:53] <Laurenceb> i think archeological is showing actual magnetization
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> I suppose you'd need to get a really quite high field.
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> If you want to get nonlinearity.
[21:53] <Laurenceb> wonder if anyone has towed one of the archaeological meters over a minefield to see what you see
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> But that's quite achievable if you're talking a 'walk over with a thing mounted on big plastic wheels'
[21:53] <Laurenceb> im not sure what youd see
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> Ground peentrating radar also looks fun.
[21:54] <Laurenceb> i remeber some archeoligical program on tv where they said e.g. iron oxide particles in soil tend to be aligned with the earths field
[21:54] Action: SpeedEvil wonders.
[21:54] <Laurenceb> so mine would upset that due to the hole digging
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> With four wheels on a little buggy type thing - can you contrive to do kelvin.
[21:54] <Laurenceb> as would roman trench etc, which is what they were looking for
[21:55] <Laurenceb> ground penetrating radar cant go very deep without losing res
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[21:55] <Laurenceb> i was wondering about magno just as it looks useful in archaeology
[21:55] <BrainDamage> mines are buried deep very rarely
[21:55] <Laurenceb> true
[21:56] <BrainDamage> it's not logicastically viable
[21:56] <Laurenceb> hmm and topsoil tends to have been moved all over the place
[21:56] <Laurenceb> ... maybe
[21:56] <Laurenceb> out of my depth here
[21:56] <BrainDamage> perhaps acoustic signature?
[21:57] <Laurenceb> that campsite thing on wikipedia certainly looked very good
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> What's the earths field again - is it a few microtesla?
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> or is it mili.
[21:57] Action: SpeedEvil forgets.
[21:58] <SpeedEvil> Magnetic units are almost as confusing as light-based ones.
[21:58] <Laurenceb> 5x10^-5T
[21:58] <Laurenceb> or ~4.7 in the UK
[21:58] <Laurenceb> or 4.1 accordint to my lsm303dlh XD
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> So a sensor that can hit 10^-4 of the earths field would create interesting images according to that.
[21:59] <Laurenceb> yeah
[22:00] <Laurenceb> http://www.militaryaerospace.com/index/display/article-display/285454/articles/military-aerospace-electronics/online-news/army-asks-industry-to-design-magnetometer-and-electro-magnetic-sensors-to-hunt-buried-mines.html
[22:00] <Laurenceb> so already been though of :P
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> I suppose you've looked at the sensitivity IRL of teh lsm?
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> What does it look like if you read a thousand samples?
[22:06] <Laurenceb> 1lsb or so
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> Which is what part of the earths field - I see it says 16 bits, but that looks too good.
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[22:12] <Laurenceb> no, 12 bit
[22:13] <Laurenceb> earths field is ~400lsb
[22:13] <Laurenceb> so ~3x10^-3 earth field rms noise/sample
[22:13] <Laurenceb> at 75hz sample
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[22:14] <SpeedEvil> That's getting interestingly close to the 10^-4 above.
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> At the point where it might pick the fire-pit-tops out of the noise.
[22:15] <Laurenceb> seems to be better than the freescale
[22:15] <Laurenceb> need to do more tests tho
[22:15] <Laurenceb> im off, cya
[22:15] <SpeedEvil> Wave.
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[22:23] <eroomde> night all
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[22:24] <MNSP> time to turn in for me as well, night all, night eroomde
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[23:15] <NigeyS> boing boing boing
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[00:00] --- Fri May 13 2011