highaltitude.log.20110506

[00:06] <W0OTM> Lunar_Lander: ok
[00:06] <W0OTM> Lunar_Lander: have you seen the pics and videos?
[00:11] <Lunar_Lander> not yet
[00:11] <Lunar_Lander> one moment, will do
[00:18] <Lunar_Lander> W0OTM:read it
[00:18] <Lunar_Lander> why did the VHF and the HF malfunction?
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[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> if I may ask
[00:25] <Lunar_Lander> W0OTM
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[02:51] <griffonbot> @N9XTN: NSTAR 11-B #ARHAB flight Sat May 14 from Strat Air & Space Museum near Ashland NE. Launch 1345 CDT. www.nstar.org [http://twitter.com/N9XTN/status/66334282318221312]
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[10:35] <jcoxon> morning all
[10:35] <SpeedEvil> Morning!
[10:35] <jonsowman> morning jcoxon
[10:40] <jcoxon> back in a bit
[10:40] <jcoxon> time for sleep
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[10:41] <GW8RAK> Morning, has anyone seen this http://www.raspberrypi.org/ ?
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> $25 seems really optimistic.
[10:44] <SpeedEvil> I would guess that they'd need volumes of ~10K+ to hit that price point.
[10:44] <SpeedEvil> And that's with no profit.
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[11:19] <hibby> it seems cool, but schools here won't buy into it
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> Not windows?
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> I suppose more not part of the curiculimn.
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> 99.9% of teachers wouldn't have a clue.
[11:23] <hibby> all three
[11:23] <GW8RAK> From my albeit limited experience of modern youth, there'll be little interest and as you say, most teachers would not understand it.
[11:25] <hibby> In scotland anyway, our curriculum for IT is outdated and still not updated from VB6 and 1990s yahoo/geocities
[11:27] <hibby> which is fine for maths / english as basic maths to teach kids won't change at a great pace, and the english language as taught/analysed isn't changing, and teachers have flexibility to use their own books, but in the sciences and IT there's a whole range of excitement that's just being ignored because the system "works"
[11:28] <GW8RAK> With my involvment with the air cadets, I've found that most kids are just not interested in how things work and why, just does it/doesn't it.
[11:28] <hibby> I guess that's a big part of it too - things have become disposable and the interest/joy in fixing them is gone
[11:29] <hibby> but at the same time, I was brought up fixing 40 year old tractors and restoring a steam traction engine
[11:29] <hibby> and I'm only in my early 20s :)
[11:29] <fsphil> I was brought up fixing BBC micros :) well, not fixing but doing cool blinky programs
[11:30] <GW8RAK> I think the teachers and the national curriculum are largely to blame. They just don't challenge the kids.
[11:30] <GW8RAK> Flak jacket goes on in case a teacher is reading
[11:31] <hibby> also true. I was pretty lucky in having a couple of inspirational teachers, but on the whole it school bored me.
[11:32] <GW8RAK> I'm of a different generation and there were inspirational teachers at my school who really made you look forward to post school days.
[11:32] <GW8RAK> But I'd still like one of those Raspbery Pi things. Particularly at that price.
[11:33] <hibby> I was pretty much conditioned for School -> uni -> job. You must go to uni! It looks good on the figures.
[11:34] <GW8RAK> I was, in current terms, one of the "elite" and we had full grants. £950 in my first year!
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[11:36] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[11:37] <GW8RAK> Hi Lunar_Lander
[11:38] <Lunar_Lander> how is the life?
[11:38] <GW8RAK> It's good, work is going well, money in the bank and I've bought a new HF rig
[11:40] <Lunar_Lander> that is great to hear!
[11:40] <Lunar_Lander> I am well too
[11:41] <GW8RAK> Project going well I hope?
[11:41] <Lunar_Lander> I only have to get some pudding
[11:41] <Lunar_Lander> I'll be back in a few minutes
[11:41] <hibby> pudding at lunch... what an amazing plan
[11:41] <GW8RAK> Beats my apple
[11:42] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[11:42] <BrainDamage> according to the wikipedia article, there's even fried pudding, you could get that :p
[11:42] <Lunar_Lander> we got vanilla curd or fruit salad
[11:43] <GW8RAK> Hmmmmmmmmmm.
[11:43] <hibby> BrainDamage: we probably invented taht up here :)
[11:43] <Lunar_Lander> but there is also some semolina pudding!
[11:43] <fsphil> today I will be having sausage rolls, with brown sauce.mmmmmm
[11:43] <hibby> we fry everything else
[11:43] <Lunar_Lander> well
[11:43] <GW8RAK> Must try deep fried Mars bar one day
[11:43] <Lunar_Lander> earlier on I had some fish filet with spinach and a little Solyanka soup
[11:43] <Lunar_Lander> so now it's time for desert
[11:44] <GW8RAK> Mention of food has got my juices flowing. Off to the pasty shop on my way to Maplins
[11:44] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[11:44] <Lunar_Lander> OK, cu later!
[11:44] <hibby> ooh, maplins, thanks for the reminder
[11:45] <GW8RAK> They've got 2 plugs in stock and I need 2. Probably won't have them when I get there.
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[11:49] <hibby> sounds typical
[11:49] <hibby> "oh, we have 3 of these!""oh, there;s only one in the drawer. Sorry."
[11:51] <GW8RAK> At least I'll get to visit the Pasty shop in Chester :)
[11:53] <jontyw> GW8RAK, you live in chester?
[11:54] <GW8RAK> About 25km away, but it's my local Maplins and a nice bike ride in.
[11:55] <hibby> cool
[11:55] <hibby> .win 4
[11:56] <GW8RAK> c u later
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[11:56] <hibby> cya
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[12:41] <futurity> Hi, Can anyone recommend a good place in the UK to buy the ntx2 and appropriate GPS module from please
[12:41] <jonsowman> futurity: direct from RM
[12:41] <futurity> RM?
[12:41] <jonsowman> radiometrix
[12:41] <futurity> are they the manufacturer?
[12:42] <jonsowman> call them, it's not listed on their website
[12:42] <futurity> oh i see cool
[12:42] <jonsowman> yes they are
[12:42] <futurity> and which is the most popular GPS module that everyone seems to use?
[12:42] <jonsowman> fsa03, lassen iq.. both popular
[12:43] <jonsowman> james is using a gpsbee from seeed, which is a ublox 5 chipset
[12:47] <NigelMoby> Hi Jon
[12:47] <jonsowman> hi NigelMoby
[12:48] <NigelMoby> How's you?
[12:48] <jonsowman> fine thank you
[12:49] <jonsowman> yourself?
[12:49] <NigelMoby> I'm good tnx.
[12:49] <NigelMoby> Looking for a new launch site for pico.
[12:50] <jonsowman> oh right
[12:50] <jonsowman> why's that?
[12:50] <NigelMoby> To many low power lines.
[12:50] <jonsowman> ah
[12:51] <NigelMoby> Would b rather careless to launch from the 1 I visited
[12:52] <NigelMoby> Lovely place mind .. just Google sats didn't show the mass of 20ft lines :(
[12:54] <futurity> Thanks for the suggestions :)
[12:54] <futurity> i take it that all these GPS units has very similar performance?
[12:55] <jonsowman> they all have their quirks
[12:55] <NigelMoby> The lassen isn't quite as sensitive
[12:55] <jonsowman> ublox 5, for example, needs putting into nav mode before it'll work abve 24km or so
[12:55] <jonsowman> personally I'm a big fan of the lassen for HAB use
[12:55] <jonsowman> with a good antenna it Just Works really well
[13:06] <SamSilver> NigelMoby: hope new sight has cute sheep and no power-lines!
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> But.... What powers the sheep?
[13:07] <NigelMoby> Lol dunno about sheep but there will definitely be no powerlines !!
[13:09] <fsphil> Electric sheep?
[13:12] <futurity> jonsowman: thanks for the recommendation
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[13:59] <W0OTM> Hello World
[13:59] <Dan-K2VOL> hello
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[14:00] <Josh_> Hi guys! Just a quick update....I've kicked off my space balloon project and you'll be able to follow it from now by subscribing or following www.joshingtalk.com
[14:01] <Josh_> always looking for help and advice as this is my first launch but am also doing as a bit of fun and for everyone to enjoy!
[14:01] <Dan-K2VOL> oh, going to put a balloon in orbit?
[14:01] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[14:01] <Josh_> ;) near space is a more technical term
[14:02] <Josh_> plus it sounds better than the stratosphere to most :D
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[14:03] <W0OTM> Josh_: good luck! Im excited for you
[14:03] <Dan-K2VOL> cool Josh_
[14:03] <W0OTM> Josh_: there are lots of great guys here in the channel that are full of knowledge
[14:03] <Josh_> thanks! i'm excited too!
[14:04] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm a science advocate, so I prefer less sensational terms :-)
[14:04] <Josh_> yeah i've been here quite often for help when doing the pre-production work and met some great people including jonsowman
[14:04] <Dan-K2VOL> what are your goals with the project Josh
[14:04] <Josh_> that's fair enough :)
[14:05] <Josh_> i'm trying to basically have a succesful launch and retrieval whilst filming the flight
[14:05] <W0OTM> Josh_: Dont listen to Dan-K2VOL, he will only ive you bad advice
[14:05] <W0OTM> J/K!!!!! Dan-K2VOL is great!
[14:05] <Josh_> however my unique modifications are going to based around a unique heater and different filming technique....as far as i know, have not been done yet
[14:05] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[14:05] <Josh_> haha!
[14:06] <Dan-K2VOL> nice, going for HD?
[14:06] <Dan-K2VOL> what's the heater?
[14:07] <Josh_> no it's a way in which it's filmed....i'll reveal all on my blog soon but don't want anyone to go ahead and nick my ideas otherwise there's more thinking for me to do :P
[14:07] <Dan-K2VOL> ah
[14:07] <Josh_> the heater will be chemical based and also use a thermometer
[14:07] <Dan-K2VOL> oh going to regulate the reaction?
[14:08] <Josh_> before it drops too low the heater will kick into action....hopefully :)
[14:08] <W0OTM> Josh_: are you going to use for your telemetry?
[14:09] <Josh_> well the problem is me and my friend have not the foggiest on arduino and coding etc ectc and finding it hard even after readin up on it....so we've got to go down the route of using the gsm tracker
[14:09] <Josh_> however i've talked to a gps company and they've agreed to support me and let me use some equipment so it's got more chance than a standard phone/gsm device i guess
[14:09] <W0OTM> gsm? cell phone?
[14:10] <Josh_> that'll probably be next weeks post on the blog
[14:10] <Dan-K2VOL> Josh_ have you considered flying a spacenear.us compatible transmitter?
[14:11] <Josh_> no as i'm located in uk
[14:11] <Dan-K2VOL> a backup tracking device is a lifesaver, especially when youv'e got an expensive cam to retreive
[14:11] <Josh_> saying that, i haven't looked at it properly and not sure if it's compatible in uk
[14:11] <Dan-K2VOL> the UK guys are who do the spacenear.us stuff primarly
[14:11] <Dan-K2VOL> hang out here more often, and get to know NigeyS, jcoxon, robertharrison danielrichman and jonsowman
[14:12] <Josh_> yeah i do know jonsowman
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[14:12] <Josh_> half the time the stuff they chat about is another language for me
[14:12] <Josh_> haha!
[14:12] <Dan-K2VOL> and the UKHAS wiki
[14:12] <Josh_> yeah the wiki has been a brill tool to use
[14:13] <Josh_> so is that arduino based the spacenear?
[14:13] <Dan-K2VOL> we're all working/worked through the same problems you're facing, and everyone here is quite friendly. I suggest not reinventing the wheel where you don't need to, to give more energy to inventing wheels that are new
[14:14] <Dan-K2VOL> spacenear.us tracker uses a program called dl-fldigi that you download and run on your computer to listen to a radio receiver, of any frequency,
[14:14] <Dan-K2VOL> you transmit your telemetry in any modulation type that fldigi will decode
[14:15] <Dan-K2VOL> and just put the text of the telemetry in teh standard spacenear.us format, which has lots of room for custom telemetry
[14:15] <Dan-K2VOL> and people all over the UK and europe already have receivers and are set up to receive your data and auto-relay it to the website
[14:15] <Josh_> i think i understand
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> with your cell phone you will lose the balloon's flight after a few thousand meters
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> and regain coverage when you're near the ground again
[14:16] <Josh_> provided the cell phone/tracker stays on*
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> but with a simple 433 mhz transmitter for spacenear.us, you will be able to watch it through the entire flight
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> no reason for the phone not to stay on unless you've got a crappy battery, poor insulation, or a floating flight
[14:17] <Josh_> yeah
[14:17] <Josh_> i think for this first project i'm going to use the gsm module (also due to time constraints) but maybe in the future i can learn more about these mhz transmitters
[14:17] <Dan-K2VOL> honestly you won't have to worry about heating too much in the day time, just making sure there's no great gaping holes will be enough to keep any electronics at room temperature in that nice foam box you have
[14:18] <Dan-K2VOL> the sun does a lot of heating up there
[14:18] <Josh_> ahh ok :) thanks
[14:18] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah that's wise
[14:18] <Dan-K2VOL> night time flights are where a heater is a MUST
[14:18] <Josh_> yeah i can imagine
[14:19] <Josh_> i've also been using the habhub prediction software and figured out what balloon to payload ratio i'll be having
[14:19] <Josh_> i'm going to restrict the payload to 800g
[14:19] <Josh_> and use a 1200g balloon i think
[14:20] <Dan-K2VOL> what you might want to do for your first flight or two is see if someone else has a tiny spacenearus tracking payload that you could send up as a separate box on the line as a backup tracker. it really sucks to lose your payload
[14:20] <Josh_> 6m/s ascent rate and a fair altitude of circa 33,000ft with a flight time to burst of aoround 90 mins
[14:20] <W0OTM> Josh_: might consider flying a 600g balloon for your first flight
[14:20] <Dan-K2VOL> good
[14:20] <Dan-K2VOL> 6m.s is a little fast
[14:21] <Dan-K2VOL> actually strike that
[14:21] <Dan-K2VOL> that's just peachy 6m/s
[14:21] <W0OTM> Josh_: less expensive and will lift you 800g payload just fine. wont get to 100K feet, but might be a good starting point
[14:21] <Josh_> thanks dan! good idea....i might ask around before launch and see if i get lucky....more definitely give peace of mind
[14:21] <Dan-K2VOL> that's about 1000 fpm
[14:21] <Josh_> oh ok cheers guys....i'd like to be able to get high enough to see the curvature of the earth although not entirely sure at what height that would be?
[14:22] <Dan-K2VOL> groups around here often piggyback payloads like that to have a backup
[14:22] <Dan-K2VOL> you'll get that at about 60k and above, depending on the field of view of your lens
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[14:22] <Dan-K2VOL> generally if you're not zoomed in 60k will have a black sky and a nice gently noticeable curve
[14:23] <Josh_> ok cool
[14:23] <Josh_> the other thing is time....if i were to use a 600g, would that not take alot longer 3hours+ for the flight
[14:23] <Dan-K2VOL> all gravy above that, the black gets a a little blacker, and the curve a little more distinct
[14:23] <Josh_> if that's the case, i'll have to think about recording times
[14:23] <Josh_> sweeet!
[14:24] <Dan-K2VOL> just keep your ascent rate at 6m/s and your 600g will burst sooner than your 800g
[14:24] <Dan-K2VOL> (and less ground travel too)
[14:25] <Josh_> i think i might go 800g as that's what they are selling on the random solutions website
[14:25] <Josh_> either that or a 500g
[14:26] <Dan-K2VOL> here's a flight I helped launch for a local kids summer camp, we had the cam looking straight up to see the balloon burst. this is a clip of just the burst: ww.youtube.com/watch?v=YsQb-oWq6d4
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[14:26] <Dan-K2VOL> ignore the ghetto payload there
[14:26] <SamSilver> bbl
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[14:27] <Dan-K2VOL> it's neat to see the balloon shred from one end to the other over the course of a few frames
[14:27] <Dan-K2VOL> shatter really
[14:27] <Josh_> haha! that's well nice
[14:27] <Dan-K2VOL> it surprises me that it does that, materials science is fascinating
[14:29] <Josh_> clever stuff!
[14:29] <Dan-K2VOL> what chemicals are you using for a heater?
[14:29] <Josh_> ;) again....that will be revealed shortly (if i'm really honest, we've not even tried it yet so subject to change)
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[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> well I'll tell you some we considered then
[14:30] <eroomde> if interested guys, my lecturer has just made a documentary on rebuilding the bouncing bomb of the damnbuster missions
[14:30] <eroomde> http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dambusters-building-the-bouncing-bomb/4od#3186574
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> REBUILDING?
[14:30] <eroomde> well, at 1/3 scale
[14:30] <eroomde> recreating*
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> uh, and using?
[14:30] <eroomde> an aeroplane and a mocked-up damn in canada
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd love to see that, have to put that on my watch-after-work list
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> neat ed!
[14:31] <Josh_> sweet!
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[14:31] <eroomde> his dynamics course is all about gyroscopes and other spinning things, so this is right up his street.
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> josh_ in the group I do balloons with we've struggled with the energy to weight ratio of heaters
[14:32] <eroomde> he's good fun - I'm enjoying this so far
[14:32] <Josh_> ahhh yeah that's what we've been looking at
[14:32] <Dan-K2VOL> and also the complexity/weight of metering liquids
[14:32] <Josh_> we have thought of a magnesium and water reaction (like what they use in the US army)
[14:33] <Josh_> keep checking my blog because when i post the heater up, i think you'll be fascinated....we're fairly sure no1 has tried this before
[14:33] <Dan-K2VOL> definitely
[14:33] <Josh_> in this kind of project
[14:34] <eroomde> Josh_: remember water isn't very watery up at high altitude
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> I suggest a radiothermal heater.
[14:34] <eroomde> it'll either have frozen or boiled off
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> we always end up throwing in the towel and using energizer e2 ultimate lithium AA batteries for heat, they've got the best power to weight ratio for batteries, and the heater is just some resistors
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd still like to see some chemical heater experiments fly though
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> we're not much of chemists
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> There are better - ~600Wh/Kg for lithium
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> But those are spendy
[14:35] <Dan-K2VOL> exactly
[14:35] <Dan-K2VOL> for amateurs, the energizers are the sweet spot
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[14:35] <Dan-K2VOL> lighter than alkalines, and super low temp performance
[14:35] <Josh_> yeah i've heard
[14:36] <Josh_> as we're flying in the day though and with the heat given off by the equipment inside, we thought we'd give something else a test as a backup
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[14:36] <Josh_> my friend is the one with the chemistry brain....i just have the project ideas :D
[14:36] <Dan-K2VOL> haha nice, I'm the idea guy here too
[14:37] <Josh_> i'm tempted to make the heater an early post to reveal all
[14:37] <Josh_> :D ^
[14:37] <Josh_> this is my first project though and the one thing i didn't think about was money....which has bought allot of the project to a halt
[14:38] <Josh_> infact, we're looking for some funding otherwise the project may not go ahead but i'm confident
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[14:38] <Dan-K2VOL> ugh yeah, science isn't cheap
[14:38] <Josh_> all we need to get now is the balloon, parachute, camera and helium
[14:38] <Dan-K2VOL> well, innovative science isn't
[14:38] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[14:39] <Dan-K2VOL> I'll vouch for spherachutes ones, but there's several other options
[14:39] <Josh_> yeah ^ i've managed to get some support (gps, external battery pack)
[14:39] <Josh_> yeah either that or random solutions
[14:39] <Dan-K2VOL> cool
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[14:40] <jcoxon> bacl...
[14:40] <jcoxon> back
[14:40] Action: jcoxon is off now for 2 weeks
[14:40] <Dan-K2VOL> we're doing a more open source approach on our project, but our goal is specifically to break new difficult ground and allow others to follow on past our foundation
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[14:40] <jcoxon> hooray!
[14:40] <Dan-K2VOL> nice jcoxon!!!!
[14:40] <eroomde> jcoxon: lucky bugger
[14:40] <Dan-K2VOL> very jealous!
[14:40] <eroomde> i just bought parts of a pc
[14:40] <jcoxon> it hurts though
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[14:40] <eroomde> good buy macbook, my friend for the last five years who interoduced me to unix and programming
[14:41] <eroomde> you've served me well
[14:41] <eroomde> but you are too slow now
[14:41] <jcoxon> noooo macbook funeral
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[14:41] <eroomde> i might plonk arch on her and if she's super lucky she'll get an ssd and be faster than new
[14:41] <eroomde> but probably not until I've recovered from pc purchase
[14:41] <Josh_> cool
[14:42] <Dan-K2VOL> aw ed, no new aluminum unibody?
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[14:42] <eroomde> nope, went for a pc instead. got really bad rsi in thesis and so decided to try and spent less time using laptops
[14:42] <eroomde> and sit properly
[14:43] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[14:43] <jcoxon> my payload test is coming up to 48hrs
[14:43] <eroomde> and use an os that makes it harder for me to goof off
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[14:44] <SpeedEvil> 'normal' lithium-ion are around 200Wh/Kg too, trhe AA ones ~280
[14:44] <futurity> eroomde: are you looking to sell your macbook?
[14:44] <futurity> my son (aged 9) is looking to get a mac as me and my wife use them)
[14:44] <eroomde> futurity: probably going to hang onto it otherwise i'll be completely without portable computing
[14:44] <eroomde> which would be difficult
[14:45] <futurity> a very good point
[14:45] <jcoxon> eroomde, you could use it as an online radio :-)
[14:45] <futurity> and its definately work more as a portable device than the money you'd most likely get for it
[14:45] <jcoxon> remote dl-fldigi
[14:45] <eroomde> futurity: yes indeed
[14:46] <eroomde> tho actually, it's still a core 2 duo laptop with 4gb ram, which seems to be macbooks until quite recently
[14:46] <futurity> Yes and a very good PC spec
[14:46] <eroomde> the hdd is what's made it creek to death. ssds are where it's at
[14:46] <futurity> you could just install windows onto it, although it would be slower ;)
[14:46] <eroomde> aaaaargh
[14:47] <eroomde> no windows on this thing
[14:47] <eroomde> my new pc has lots of ram to do cad on a windows vm
[14:47] <jonsowman> put ubuntu on it if you really want to get rid of osx
[14:47] <eroomde> that's the only reason I need windows
[14:47] <futurity> That would finish it off ;)
[14:47] <eroomde> ubuntu is quite like osx now
[14:47] <eroomde> was going to use debian mint or arch bang
[14:47] <jonsowman> in many ways, yes
[14:47] <jonsowman> and works very nicely on the macbook pros
[14:47] <jonsowman> almost everything works out of the box these days
[14:48] <eroomde> my lab mate just got a core 2 duo thinkpad x61 off ebay for £130
[14:48] <futurity> btw is the a single supplier where i can buy the various bits and bobs to make a payload (i.e. ntx2 and gps) or do they have to be purchased individually from each manufacturer?
[14:48] <eroomde> it's a *wonderful* piece of hardware
[14:48] <eroomde> really nicely built, lovely keyboard, worked out of the box and very snaippily with ubuntu natty
[14:48] <eroomde> i can't see whay you'd get a netbook when you can get a previous-gen 12" thinkpad
[14:49] <eroomde> futurity: there isn't one, no
[14:49] <eroomde> gotta shop around
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[14:53] <futurity> no probs
[14:54] <eroomde> unless cusf do a garage sale
[14:54] <futurity> ttfn, off home early from work ;)
[14:54] <futurity> if there ever is a sale or a clearance on, do let me know ;)
[14:54] <Dan-K2VOL> ttyl
[14:55] <futurity> i don't mind paying full price for stuff for the convenience
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[14:58] <Lunar_Lander> bacl
[14:58] <Lunar_Lander> back
[14:58] <Lunar_Lander> Josh_ your ideas sound good
[15:01] <Josh_> thanks! :)
[15:01] <Josh_> i'll keep you guys updated
[15:01] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[15:02] <Dan-K2VOL> hi Kevin
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[15:06] <Lunar_Lander> back, hi Dan-K2VOL
[15:07] <Dan-K2VOL> hey
[15:08] <Lunar_Lander> how are you?
[15:12] <Dan-K2VOL> doing well, we're having fun with the antennas, going to fly the sat modem and helical antenna on a tethered balloon out in the farm lands
[15:12] <Dan-K2VOL> this sunday
[15:12] <eroomde> what's left on the checklist once comms look like they're working Dan-K2VOL ?
[15:14] <Dan-K2VOL> tweak the dual main spring breakaway releases to trip about 1kg less,
[15:14] <Dan-K2VOL> finish and test my message queueing code (I'm so stalled out on that, I honestly do not like programming)
[15:15] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: I seriously sympathise on embedded code when the going gets tough
[15:15] <eroomde> you have massive deadlines and the wretched sd card is still periodically stalling, say, which you know is a show stopper
[15:15] <Dan-K2VOL> yeahhh
[15:16] <Dan-K2VOL> and that's it ed
[15:16] <eroomde> and you just can't obviously see how to fix it
[15:16] <Dan-K2VOL> ready to fly then
[15:16] <eroomde> awesome!
[15:16] <eroomde> christ so really very close then (touch wood)
[15:16] <Dan-K2VOL> my roadblock here is that the code is a big spaghetti mess, and it's very slow to try to figure out how to add in features
[15:16] <Dan-K2VOL> so that errors are handled properly, etc
[15:17] <Dan-K2VOL> grrr so darn close
[15:17] <eroomde> yeah. and a re-write is really dangerous
[15:17] <eroomde> or at least, always seems appealing but often ends up being the wrong thing to do
[15:17] <Dan-K2VOL> yep
[15:18] <eroomde> who wrote v1?
[15:18] <Dan-K2VOL> me
[15:19] <eroomde> that's something, at least
[15:19] <Lunar_Lander> cool Dan-K2VOL
[15:19] <Lunar_Lander> I'm OK
[15:20] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, I'd like to work with someone whos a good coder to make it into an ORBCOMM arduino library
[15:20] <Dan-K2VOL> what are you up to kevin?
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[15:26] <Lunar_Lander> Dan-K2VOL listening to music and thinking about the lab report I have to write
[15:26] <Lunar_Lander> and you?
[15:26] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: what's the subject of your lab report?
[15:27] <Lunar_Lander> measuring the speed of light with Focault's rotating mirror method
[15:27] <Dan-K2VOL> procrastinating a long acid dilution and neutralization in te lab
[15:27] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[15:28] <Dan-K2VOL> well it sounds cool
[15:28] <Dan-K2VOL> I wish there were a school where you could take education slow and explore it
[15:28] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[15:28] <eroomde> agreed
[15:28] <Lunar_Lander> that would be awesome
[15:28] <eroomde> but there's just so much material to get through
[15:29] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[15:29] <eroomde> just to get yourself up to the boundary of research
[15:29] <Lunar_Lander> in the eperimental physics lecture today alone we went through like four subsections today
[15:29] <Lunar_Lander> *experimental
[15:30] <Lunar_Lander> including all the stuff about electrons in crossed fields, the hall effect and the helmholtz coils
[15:30] <eroomde> i've found since graduation i understand stuff a lot better when i can enjoy it
[15:30] <Lunar_Lander> remember, in 90 minutes!
[15:30] <eroomde> when i do it because it's interesting rather than because I have an exam on it
[15:30] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[15:30] <Lunar_Lander> actually
[15:30] <Lunar_Lander> I am hearing experimental 2 the second time now
[15:30] <Lunar_Lander> and it is much clearer to me now
[15:30] <eroomde> afk
[15:31] <eroomde> bk
[15:34] <jcoxon> hmmm maybe it wasn't a good idea that my electronics board got rained on
[15:34] <jcoxon> a bit of white deposition
[15:34] <eroomde> it's a decent test
[15:34] <eroomde> you can buy silicon sealatn spray from maplin
[15:35] <eroomde> it's very good with pcbs
[15:35] <jcoxon> eroomde, should i retouch some of the solder joints?
[15:35] <eroomde> the white deposit won't have affected the solder i wouldn't have thought
[15:35] <jcoxon> was about to say - the joints themselves look good
[15:35] <jcoxon> just white deposition
[15:35] <eroomde> if anything dunk it in a jar of vinegar for 5 mins
[15:36] <Lunar_Lander> here in germany the deposit most likely would have been yellow!
[15:36] <eroomde> then leave to dry
[15:36] <Lunar_Lander> everything here is yellow now
[15:36] <Lunar_Lander> cars, houses
[15:36] <Lunar_Lander> damn pollen
[15:36] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: ?
[15:36] <eroomde> oh
[15:36] <fsphil> people? like the simpsons
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[15:36] <Lunar_Lander> xD no the people are normal
[15:37] <jcoxon> eroomde, would a pm launch be better
[15:37] <jcoxon> as your normal fee can be provided at hte pub
[15:38] <eroomde> plan.
[15:38] <fsphil> still flying tomorrow?
[15:38] <jcoxon> daylight is longer for recovery
[15:38] <jcoxon> fsphil, mon/tues
[15:38] <fsphil> aah
[15:39] <Josh_> i'm off now guys....have a good day!
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[15:45] <jcoxon> payload is 700g
[15:45] <Lunar_Lander> btw jcoxon I was quite enchanted when I saw that the burst calculator and the burst3.xls give almost similar results
[15:46] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I know he made the sheet
[15:46] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[15:51] <jcoxon> okay here is a question
[15:52] <jcoxon> the SPoT can out last the main flight computer
[15:52] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[15:52] <jcoxon> so should i have a power mode say after 36hrs where i stop txing and just periodically turn the gps on and off
[15:52] <jcoxon> to update the SPoT
[15:52] <Dan-K2VOL> oh
[15:52] <jcoxon> as in stop txing on the radio
[15:52] <Dan-K2VOL> how about it watches the GPS altitude
[15:53] <Dan-K2VOL> and trigger when that stops changing much
[15:53] <Dan-K2VOL> or the lat/lon I suppose
[15:53] <SpeedEvil> Sounds like a plan jcoxon
[15:53] <SpeedEvil> Maybe tx for 10 mins at the top of each daylight hour?
[15:54] <jcoxon> they'll be hte backup beacon as well
[15:54] <jcoxon> so for location finding duties it'll be there
[15:59] <jcoxon> okay i think it'll go for
[15:59] <jcoxon> if count > 2000
[15:59] <jcoxon> shutdown gps for 10mins
[15:59] <jcoxon> power up for 2 mins, send single tx + update spot,
[15:59] <jcoxon> power down gps and repeat
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> Sounds sane.
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> Does GPS get a lock if you do that.
[16:00] <jcoxon> yeah its a ublox
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[16:04] <Lunar_Lander> hi mattltm-alt
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[16:06] <MNSP> hello all :)
[16:07] <W0OTM> MNSP: hi
[16:08] <MNSP> whats up mate?
[16:08] <W0OTM> its Friday :)
[16:08] <MNSP> YAY!
[16:08] <Darkside> yesterday was thursday
[16:08] <Darkside> tomorrow is sat'day
[16:08] <Darkside> >_>
[16:09] <W0OTM> wow Darkside , ur on top of things :)
[16:09] <Darkside> (actually its saturday now, here)
[16:09] <W0OTM> Darkside: seriously?
[16:09] <Darkside> 1:39AM, saturday morning
[16:09] <W0OTM> wow, what a small world.....11am here
[16:09] <Darkside> haha
[16:09] <Darkside> i'm in australia
[16:09] <Darkside> i'm IN THE FUTURE
[16:09] <W0OTM> 11am Fri
[16:09] <W0OTM> LMAO
[16:10] <Darkside> back in a bit
[16:12] <fsphil> back to the future!
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[16:13] <mattltm-alt> Hi all :)
[16:13] <mattltm-alt> Lunar_Lander: It's on it's way to you :)
[16:14] <MNSP> LOL fsphil
[16:14] <MNSP> alright mattltm-alt
[16:14] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[16:15] <mattltm-alt> Hi MNSP :)
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[16:16] <mattltm-alt> I've just ordered a box of these...
[16:16] <mattltm-alt> http://www.freetronics.com/products/etherten
[16:16] <mattltm-alt> They look like fun :)
[16:17] <mattltm-alt> And they have the wiznet ethernet chip so it supports DHCP :)
[16:17] <mattltm-alt> A vital feature missing on most arduino ethernet sheilds.
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[16:20] <fsphil> interesting
[16:20] <fsphil> does all the hard work
[16:21] <eroomde> so you don't have to
[16:24] <mattltm-alt> Yay!
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[16:25] <W0OTM> I think ill launch on Sunday
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[16:39] <Darkside> hmm i guess i should sleep
[16:39] <Darkside> 2am
[16:39] <fsphil> that does seem to be when most people try it
[16:39] <Darkside> heh
[16:40] <fsphil> if only we knew a way to avoid the need :)
[16:40] <Darkside> caffeine
[16:40] <Darkside> up to a point, anyway
[16:40] <hibby> Darkside: I did a 36hour day on monday-> tuesday
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[16:42] <Darkside> ok, nn
[16:43] <jcoxon> just become nocturnal
[16:44] <mattltm-alt> Darkside: Give polyphasic sleep a try :)
[16:45] <mattltm-alt> I done the "uberman" pattern for 18 months. My productivity went through the roof!
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[16:53] <griffonbot> @CollegeARC: K2GXT on WHAM 13 TV! #hamradio #hamr #RIT #ARHAB http://fb.me/uxXBy9ZT [http://twitter.com/CollegeARC/status/66546118045081600]
[16:57] <cuddykid> hi all
[16:57] <Lunar_Lander> hi cuddykid
[16:58] <Lunar_Lander> my weekend just turned from cool to shit
[16:58] <cuddykid> hi lunar
[16:58] <cuddykid> oh no, why?!
[16:58] <Lunar_Lander> I wanted to raise the blinds
[16:58] <Lunar_Lander> all of sudden, the belt snapped
[16:58] <cuddykid> not good
[16:58] <Lunar_Lander> now the top part of the belt is in the b
[16:58] <Lunar_Lander> blinds box
[16:58] <Lunar_Lander> and the lower part is in that wall socket
[16:59] <Lunar_Lander> and I have to cut the box free and open it
[16:59] <Lunar_Lander> without my father noticing it!
[16:59] <cuddykid> sounds a nightmare!
[16:59] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[16:59] <Lunar_Lander> because he always warned me about the worn out belt
[16:59] <cuddykid> btw, is there a UK launch going down this weekend at all?
[16:59] <Lunar_Lander> "I don't want to have to climb up there and open the wall up!"
[16:59] <cuddykid> oh dear!! lol
[17:00] <Lunar_Lander> I have to get some screwdrivers and a carpet knife
[17:01] <Lunar_Lander> I found a tutorial on that
[17:01] <W0OTM> Anyone from CollegeARC around?
[17:01] <Lunar_Lander> you can actually open the blinds manually once the box is open
[17:03] <cuddykid> bad times
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[17:08] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[17:09] <jiffe98> anyone know of mapping software that doesn't require an internet connection and will let me feed 2 sets of coordinates to, one for current location and one for destination ?
[17:09] <jiffe98> we can do it with google earth but I can only store so many maps
[17:12] <mattltm-alt> memorymap
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[17:24] <jonsowman> jiffe98: we used mappoint 2004
[17:24] <jonsowman> it has a suitable API
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> jiffe98: you mean for routing?
[17:29] <jiffe98> SpeedEvil: I don't really need it to give me a route per se, just so long as it display my location along with the balloon on a map and I can figure out how to get there myself then
[17:30] <SpeedEvil> I assume you mean without an interent connection?
[17:30] <jiffe98> SpeedEvil: indeed, I can get mifi but I probably won't, at least not anytime soon
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> On a laptop?
[17:31] <jiffe98> basically, a carputer running windows 7
[17:31] <SpeedEvil> I'd look at the openstreetmap wiki - to see if there are any programs that suit.
[17:32] <jiffe98> I'm running iguidance right now but it doesn't seem to have that kind of capability
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[18:17] <jonsowman> `w`
[18:17] <jonsowman> oops
[18:17] <jonsowman> :)
[18:17] <MrCraig> irssi ?
[18:17] <MrCraig> hi jonsowman
[18:18] <jonsowman> I pressed up enter, I'm even sure what the `w` was about
[18:18] <jonsowman> hi MrCraig
[18:18] <MrCraig> Quick question for you, did you install any scripts into your irc client?
[18:18] <jonsowman> many
[18:19] <MrCraig> I'm hoping at some point - no hurry, you might be able to help me out. I have two centos boxes sitting mostly unabused at the moment and I'd like to install irssi with some scripts to mail me pings and msg's
[18:19] <jonsowman> adv_windowlist, email_notify, mouse, nickcolor, screen_away, uptime, usercount
[18:19] <MrCraig> I'm not overly concerned however with learning to use it exactly - it's just a sit in for me bot.
[18:19] <jonsowman> yes of course, I can package my config and scripts for you if you like
[18:20] <Randomskk> MrCraig: you should totally use it, though
[18:20] <Randomskk> irssi is like the best irc client
[18:20] <MrCraig> cool :-) That sounds like it'd be easy.
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[18:20] <jonsowman> MrCraig: you should, because it will email you on every mention/pm when you're not attached to the screen session
[18:21] <MrCraig> That's exactly what I'd like - I've been a little distant from this channel and some others recently but don't want to step out or miss out.
[18:21] <MrCraig> I've no aversion to learning it really, it's just that I learn shortcuts for many many apps and I've started getting lazy and enjoying gui's
[18:22] <jonsowman> it's not too difficult :)
[18:22] <Randomskk> just that, if you don't use it then it will email you every time anyone says your name, even if you're online on your other client
[18:22] <Randomskk> jcoxon: I have a supervision 4pm tuesday
[18:22] <MrCraig> Perfect, and then I can ssh into the screen
[18:22] <Randomskk> yea
[18:23] <jonsowman> MrCraig: yup
[18:23] <MrCraig> I have it installed but I think I should setup a new user account for it before using, leaving it running as root seems a little scarey.
[18:23] <jcoxon> Randomskk, finishes at 5?
[18:24] <Randomskk> yea, though I think jonsowman is 5-6
[18:24] <jonsowman> MrCraig: what's running as root?
[18:24] <Randomskk> MrCraig: I think irssi even whines a little if you run it as root. definitely a bad idea.
[18:24] <Randomskk> out of interest do you ssh in as root?
[18:25] <jcoxon> Randomskk, i'm never going to win
[18:25] <Randomskk> jcoxon: no one wins against cambridge timetables :P
[18:25] <MrCraig> jonsowman, logging in as root user to start it.
[18:25] <Randomskk> MrCraig: boo :P
[18:25] <MrCraig> Randomskk, Argh?
[18:26] <Randomskk> I think the habit of logging in as root is another reason I don't like centos
[18:26] <Randomskk> not that it makes or even suggests you do
[18:26] <Randomskk> or that other distros don't
[18:26] <Randomskk> but most centos users I know also log in as root, while most other admins I know don't
[18:26] <MrCraig> Randomskk, thus far I've ssh'ed in as root to these servers yes. They were only apportioned a week or so ago, and I've only logged in to do config work
[18:26] <jonsowman> MrCraig: definitely make a new user and use that :)
[18:26] <jonsowman> and run irssi as it
[18:26] <Randomskk> haha okay I'll let you off for now
[18:27] <MrCraig> lol I feel forgiven
[18:27] <Randomskk> I don't think I've sshed in as root more than once to any server, and then to turn off sshing as root and add a user account
[18:27] <jonsowman> MrCraig: http://hexoc.com/u/irssi-example.tar.gz
[18:27] <MrCraig> jonsowman, awesome thanks
[18:28] <jonsowman> rename the dotirssi/ directory to .irssi/ and dump it in your home director
[18:28] <jonsowman> y
[18:28] <jonsowman> in .irssi/config, you need to edit nicknames and alternative nick
[18:28] <jonsowman> oh and real name
[18:28] <MrCraig> ok - will do that much - this package has scripts for sendmail?
[18:29] <jonsowman> the email_notify script does it
[18:29] <jonsowman> you need two perl modules installed
[18:29] <jonsowman> and a suitable MTA running on the server
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[18:29] Nick change: BrainDamage1 -> BrainDamage
[18:29] <MrCraig> MTA?
[18:29] <Randomskk> sendmail ro something
[18:29] <Randomskk> or*
[18:29] <jonsowman> mail transport agent... i suggest exim if you want ease of use
[18:29] <Randomskk> mail transfer agent. postfix, sendmail, mini_sendmail etc
[18:29] <MrCraig> ooh mail thingy application :-)
[18:29] <Randomskk> exim works too I guess :P
[18:30] Action: jonsowman got the acronym wrong :(
[18:30] <Randomskk> did you?
[18:30] <jonsowman> it's transfer, not transport :)
[18:30] <jonsowman> you were right
[18:30] <Randomskk> I thought I got it wrong >_> sweet
[18:30] <jonsowman> haha
[18:30] <jonsowman> wikipedia says you're right
[18:31] <MrCraig> I think you're both wrong and my deliberately dumbed down version is right.
[18:31] <jonsowman> haha :D
[18:31] <griffonbot> @nearsys: We're on for two launches this Saturday from KU, Learned Drive (Engineering). Liftoff at 7 AM #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/66570754937982976]
[18:31] <griffonbot> @nearsys: Launch on Sunday? Geography wants another trip up. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/66570849343389696]
[18:32] <jonsowman> MrCraig: you need Email::Simple and Email::Send iirc
[18:33] <MrCraig> those are perls right?
[18:33] <jonsowman> correct
[18:33] <jonsowman> # cpan Email::Simple
[18:34] <MrCraig> This is going to be my project either for late this evening or tomorrow evening then
[18:34] <Randomskk> you should be able to just yum install them
[18:34] <Randomskk> at least, debian and ubuntu provide packages
[18:34] <Randomskk> I wouldn't know about your dirty package repositories :P
[18:34] <Randomskk> they might have Email::1950
[18:34] <MrCraig> lol
[18:34] <jonsowman> haha
[18:34] <jonsowman> i sense some centos hate here
[18:34] <MrCraig> Interesting theory that, it should yum - but at what version... So far, apache is out of date in the repo, as is mysql.
[18:35] <Randomskk> yes indeed
[18:35] <Randomskk> by "out of date" you mean "stable" and "tested" and "archaic"
[18:35] <Randomskk> I was forced to use centos for weeks for work
[18:35] <MrCraig> I've gotta say, I did request ubuntu servers but the tech's just went ahead and installed centos anyway. I didn't really mind given that I can reimage them anytime I want and I've used fedora as a desktop.
[18:36] <jonsowman> you might want to consider installing debian or something perhaps?
[18:36] <Randomskk> there's nothing technically /wrong/ with centos, I'm just not their target market
[18:36] <Randomskk> i want sexy and modern and they want beige and stable
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[18:37] <MrCraig> my only desire in any linux arena is - I want to install it and it works. Typically when using it as a desktop I've found it's Install it, forums for three weeks, breaks with every update.
[18:37] <Randomskk> that is mostly why I use ubuntu
[18:37] <Randomskk> I haven't had anything break in a few years now, I don't think
[18:37] <MrCraig> Then don't update to 11.x until you've read my most recent blog post
[18:38] <Randomskk> haha I haven't updated to 11.04 yet admittedly
[18:38] <MrCraig> Unity desktop is just plain busted.
[18:38] <Randomskk> oh god, yea
[18:38] <Randomskk> sticking with gnome for now I feel
[18:38] <MrCraig> They skipped an RC or two and went right to release - and if you sit in #ubuntu it's chocked with upset.
[18:38] <MrCraig> I did a roll back.
[18:41] <Randomskk> can't you just select gnome from the login screen
[18:41] <Randomskk> and thus not use unity
[18:42] <jonsowman> that's what i intend to do
[18:42] <jonsowman> though I tried to upgrade from the alternate install iso
[18:42] <jonsowman> and it really wasn't happy
[18:43] <MrCraig> Randomskk, to be honest for me it was kinda pointless anyway because the new kernel doesn't boot on the old hardware i'm making do with.
[18:44] <MrCraig> Last month my battered old car finally died as did my "just over 1 year so out of warranty" laptop
[18:44] <Randomskk> fair enough
[18:46] <MrCraig> Gonna see if I can pick up a netbook on payday, and then plan a second flight :) (rent-a-car for chase)
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[18:58] <Randomskk> it's not looking good for AV
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[19:00] <Randomskk> and indeed AV lost
[19:00] <jonsowman> D:
[19:02] <Randomskk> won in cambridge though
[19:02] <Randomskk> one of eight areas so far declared
[19:03] <gb73d> i voted for AV, anything to upset the applecart for the big 2
[19:04] <Laurenceb> :(
[19:04] Action: Laurenceb voted for AV
[19:04] <Laurenceb> everyone i know votes for it.. guess i mix with an unusual crowd :P
[19:04] <Laurenceb> *voted
[19:06] <MrCraig> didn't vote - because the voting card that came through was for my landlord and I've not been stood still long enough to correct them.
[19:07] <cuddykid> I voted for AV, however, not a democrat or labour supporter
[19:09] <MrCraig> I have to be honest, even if it causes some frowns, I wasn't at all interested in politics until just over a year ago - the televised thingy interested me to actually read the manifesto's and I was swayed (naively?) to being democrat
[19:11] <Laurenceb> democrat?
[19:12] <Laurenceb> thought you were uk
[19:12] <MrCraig> I am
[19:12] <MrCraig> lib-dem I should say
[19:12] <Laurenceb> ah
[19:12] <Laurenceb> well theres the english democrats
[19:12] <Laurenceb> whatever they are
[19:13] <fsphil> odd, I don't know anyone who voted No either
[19:13] <MrCraig> I think cleggy got a bit of a bum deal really - because all his "promises" were financial ones, and he didn't get any financial control in the government.
[19:13] <Laurenceb> the daily mail and sun reads, thats who voted no
[19:13] <Laurenceb> *readers
[19:17] <MrCraig> A friend from work was thinking of voting no because he'd heard from some rumour mill that it would help the BNP get in. (His first language is not english and he's a bit of an old chap now so he can get confused easily)
[19:17] <MrCraig> That's got to have started in the daily mail.
[19:19] <fsphil> aah the daily fail
[19:21] <gb73d> i hope the coalition does soon
[19:21] <MrCraig> hey phil
[19:21] <MrCraig> hope the coalition what gb73d? reads the mail?
[19:21] <fsphil> hi hi MrCraig
[19:23] <gb73d> daily fail obviously
[19:24] <MrCraig> Curious, can I ask what they've done most specifically that got on your bad side? (no judgements just naive curiosity)
[19:25] <eroomde> chaps, #politics if you want to talk about that. this isn't the place
[19:25] <MrCraig> *nods @ eroomde
[19:26] <fsphil> Unless you are planning an Attach-A-Politician-To-A-HAB day
[19:26] <MrCraig> now there's a thought!
[19:27] <MrCraig> Ok here's a semi hab related question. I understand it's hideously ambitious but would like to understand to just what degree it is, to get a payload into space on a rocket launched from a balloon?
[19:28] <MrCraig> I'm talking orbit breaking and drifting off
[19:28] <eroomde> well, you need to get it to > 8km/s velocity
[19:28] <fsphil> Escape velocity?
[19:28] <eroomde> so the question is how easy is it to do that
[19:28] <eroomde> balloons are just a distraction when you have a problem like that
[19:28] <MrCraig> uhuh velocity and distance are the biggest questions. I presumed a sounding rocket would do it
[19:29] <MrCraig> I guess the most effective way is simple old ground based rockets - but wouldn't it be nice to take advantage of the reduced fuel costs of launching from 30km or so
[19:29] <eroomde> sounding rockets tend to come back
[19:30] <NigeyS> eroomde, isnt our escape velocity 11km/s ?
[19:30] <eroomde> MrCraig: do the sums on this
[19:30] <eroomde> starting from 30km higher makes not a nat's fart worth of a dent in how much energy you need to put in
[19:30] <MrCraig> ok - so realistically speaking, a pointless concept.
[19:30] <eroomde> and adds the ludicrous complication of having to lift a rocket launch tower under a balloon
[19:31] <fsphil> I suppose for just getting a payload >100km for a few minutes it might make sense for a balloon launch
[19:31] <eroomde> yes
[19:32] <eroomde> suborbital is totally different
[19:33] <eroomde> between 1 and 2 orders of magnitude less energy required
[19:34] <MrCraig> Well my thinking was really (though I see from the responses it was a bad line of thought) of the google lunar x prize delivery system. Many of the teams are trying to get piggy-back on commercial sat launches but the cost is stupidly high. Was just wonder if it could be reduced.
[19:34] <eroomde> i think piggybacking on a commercial launch would cost about 1/1000th (no exaggeration) of the cost to develop a reliable orbital launch system
[19:35] <MrCraig> *nods
[19:35] <eroomde> you can launch a cubesat for £20k
[19:35] <eroomde> to build yourself an orbital rocket would probably cost you hudreds of millions
[19:35] <eroomde> except maybe one that can launch tiny payloads
[19:35] <MrCraig> ok - well that answers the question lol
[19:36] <MrCraig> oh well
[19:36] <fsphil> would be nice though
[19:36] <eroomde> it's always worth doing some brief order-of-magnitude sums when considering these things
[19:36] <eroomde> like ballpark energy difference between 100km parabola and 100km orbit
[19:36] <MrCraig> actually that's really why I asked here - because it was a notion not even a concept yet, and who better to ask? :)
[19:37] <gb73d> too much like hard work to think about atm
[19:38] <fsphil> tie a string to the next shuttle launch with the payload attached, hope they don't notice
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: I somewhat disagree - I think it's possible to develop a very small rocket with very bad margins for ~50K
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: But this would be 1-5Kg payload.
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> And that figure is neglecting all but cost of materials.
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander> jonsowman or anybody else
[19:39] <jonsowman> hello Lunar_Lander
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander> a friend asked me
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> how reliable are the predictor outputs?
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> hello jonsowman :)
[19:40] <jonsowman> as good as the data you give it :)
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:40] <jonsowman> if you're really careful with parameters, get the fill dead on, and run the predictor just before launch, you can expect ~10km accuracy
[19:41] <jonsowman> quite possibly less
[19:41] <jonsowman> it's impossible to give an absolute accuracy though
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> true
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> thanks!
[19:41] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:42] <jonsowman> np
[19:42] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: £500
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> You can get an idea of atmospheric instability by trying launches ~1km around the launch point
[19:42] <Laurenceb> for 10 gram payload i found
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: impressive.
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> cool idea SpeedEvil
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> jonsowman he says: "The weather forecasts aren't accurate for ~10 km"
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> well now he said: "it should be OK"
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[19:43] <jonsowman> what?
[19:43] <Laurenceb> most of the cost is npr reloads and the balloon
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> don't know what he meant
[19:43] <Laurenceb> *hpr
[19:43] <jonsowman> me neither
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> he said "Well, the weather forecasts are not accurate in the 10 km range"
[19:43] <MrCraig> The predictor gets reasonably high resolution wind data from the met?
[19:44] <Randomskk> we're not exactly predicting weather here
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> that the weather systems move within 10 km of the trajectories?
[19:44] <Randomskk> MrCraig: US NOAA, not MET
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> well anyways
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> that BalloonTrack from EOSS
[19:44] <jonsowman> the broad wind patterns are what matters
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> that is different because it uses data from a radiosounde launch
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> right?
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> Weather system gradients are quite low generally
[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:45] <Laurenceb> and the point of balloon launch is massively lower drag and higher isp
[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[19:45] <Laurenceb> theres no way you can do small launches without a balloon
[19:46] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I disagree.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> You can swap the balloon for a slow-burning stage.
[19:46] <Laurenceb> its like launching into a brick wall
[19:46] <Laurenceb> gravity losses
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> It's not _that_ bad
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> gravity losses for a minute at mach 0.8 are only 600m/s or so.
[19:47] <Laurenceb> but you need a huge stage
[19:47] <Laurenceb> that gets hard - off the shelf hpr reloads are at least obtainium
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> Oh.
[19:48] <Laurenceb> diy propellant is 1) illegal in uk 2)very hard
[19:48] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming self-devloped moderate margin kerosene/H2O2 or similar of ~2-2.5Km/s delta-v
[19:48] <Laurenceb> to get right and not go boom
[19:48] <SpeedEvil> DIY solid is illegal
[19:48] <Laurenceb> yeah but that starts to get crazy complex
[19:49] <SpeedEvil> It's fairly complex, yes.
[19:49] <Laurenceb> CF casing spin stabilised solid is only maybe an order of magnitude harder than CUSF martlet
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> It gets a lotr less complex once you decide that you can live with 4 or 5 stages.
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> Which really relaxes the margins.
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> As long as you can have lots of commonality between the stages.
[19:51] <Laurenceb> it gets horrible
[19:51] <Laurenceb> ablative engines only scale to small sizes if the burn times are low
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I was assuming regeratively cooled.
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> I had a prototyepe testr of electrodeposited engine which worked well
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> At least the electrodeposition stage.
[19:52] <Laurenceb> yeah
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> What would make it _lots_ easier would be a nice supply of Ir/Rh bar.
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately, that's rather spendy.
[19:53] <Laurenceb> i recently redid my two satge sim code and got it working with unmodified off the shelf reloads by adding a third stage
[19:54] <Laurenceb> also the tolerances became sane
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> MOAR STAGES!
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> One design I had even had a 'just in case' stage.
[19:54] <Laurenceb> also third stage is the payload :P
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> Any stage other than the first could fail to light or underperform, and it would reach orbit.
[20:04] MNSP (Mit@cpc1-lutn3-0-0-cust700.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:04] <MNSP> hi all :)
[20:05] <MrCraig> hey MNSP
[20:05] <MNSP> Alright mate :)
[20:05] <MNSP> been a while
[20:05] <MrCraig> yeah - I've been a little distant for a while, busy with work and life.
[20:06] <MrCraig> hows things?
[20:06] <MNSP> fair play, happens to us all
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[20:06] <MNSP> yeah good, got most of my gear, am just messing with arduino code
[20:07] <MNSP> trying to get my telemetry string to come out right :/
[20:07] <MNSP> you?
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[20:11] <MrCraig> My BT-broadband still sucks, I made the mistake of trying to watch a short video clip online and got disconnected. :-/
[20:11] <jonsowman> exactly the reason we switched to Be* at home MrCraig
[20:12] <MrCraig> jonsowman, once my contractual time is up - I'm going to scream at virgin to install here (because they declined when I asked) or else I'll be doing the same.
[20:12] <MrCraig> I have my gripes with virgin too, but to be fair, 2-3 years after buying out ntl/telewest they were getting the bill right and seemed stable.
[20:13] <MNSP> lol, I used to work fo ntl as a fault engineer ;) was kept busy
[20:13] <MrCraig> probably by me <grin>
[20:14] <MNSP> actually it was faults management centre, was on the phone when ppl would call in with something not working
[20:14] <MrCraig> ntl neeeever got my bill right, and never worked more than two months without needing a call to technical.
[20:14] <MNSP> lol, me
[20:14] <MNSP> that was some years back tho
[20:14] <MrCraig> lol - were you one of the ones who just hung up before answering, or the ones who just repeated "yep" until the call ended? lol
[20:15] <MrCraig> My school leaving job was in a taxi cab office (a larger than typical one) - several of our staff took jobs there, and I know what they were like in our office.
[20:15] <MNSP> neither mate, I was good at my job, they were gonna make me a supervisor for the section about 6 months into the job
[20:16] <MrCraig> wow that's impressive.
[20:16] <MrCraig> Then I never spoke to you :-/
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:17] <MNSP> mate they even let me choos my own task force (two girls n me) to deal with all the worst case one to clear up over a coupla weeks
[20:17] <MrCraig> if only I could get a choice of two girls to work with. *sigh*
[20:17] <MNSP> :D
[20:18] <MNSP> I need to sort a launch site and fill in my form soon!!!
[20:18] <MrCraig> exciting! :-)
[20:18] <MNSP> I know that was a drastic change of subject
[20:18] <MrCraig> well it's on topic :)
[20:19] <MNSP> lol, yeah I guess
[20:19] <MrCraig> I'll be listening in - but with no vehicle probably not even from the near by hill, I'm in a valley.
[20:19] <MrCraig> Will give it a shot though.
[20:20] <MNSP> $$MNSP, 99 Time: 21:20:27 Lat/Long(float): 51.89375, -0.38124 Alt: 157.10
[20:21] <MNSP> just need to figure out a few things first
[20:21] <MrCraig> I hear that
[20:22] <MNSP> like why I seem to be loosing zeros in the time eg 21.45.07 is 21.45.7
[20:22] <MNSP> you sending another up soon?
[20:22] <fsphil> %i instead of %02i ?
[20:23] <MrCraig> This weekend I'll be doing the sums and stuff - I want to resent artemis-1 for a second flight but needs to come in on budget after some unexpected costs.
[20:24] <MNSP> Serial.print(" Time: "); Serial.print(static_cast<int>(hour+ 1)); //+1 for BST!!
[20:24] <MNSP> Serial.print(":"); Serial.print(static_cast<int>(minute)); Serial.print(":"); Serial.print(static_cast<int>(second));
[20:24] <fsphil> you need snprintf :)
[20:24] <MNSP> bearing in mind I'm not a programmer but hacking other ppls
[20:24] <MrCraig> Question - are you actually doing anything with the time data in your code? If so, understood - if not, why are you casting to int in the first place and not just handling as a string?
[20:24] <MNSP> ah, right-o
[20:25] <MNSP> errrm its from the mikal Hart code
[20:25] <MNSP> http://arduiniana.org/libraries/tinygps/
[20:28] <MrCraig> *nods, well if you're hacking code together I guess you use what works for you. I'd not want to sway you from that because there are no doubt other dependencies on the variables you're using and I'd end up getting you into a muddle before getting anything working.
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[20:29] <MNSP> oh its not elegant but I am sorta making it work
[20:29] <MrCraig> I had considered decoding the data myself (in pic asm land) but because I wasn't doing onboard data logging or anything clever like navigation I just retransmitted the data from the GPS device with a little formatting.
[20:31] <MNSP> actually thats something else I'd like to do is capture to SD onboard
[20:31] <MrCraig> oh, marginally cool news... using a pen tip instead of an actual too - I got the cnc mill to draw a pattern from some of the sample files that come with the software.... that means - it's now time to learn eagle :) hmm, wasn't that supposed to be good news?
[20:31] <MrCraig> SD capture would be nice - and a benefit if you're sending any sensors or plan to in the future.
[20:33] <MNSP> oooo cool with the cnc
[20:33] <MNSP> I'm hoping to put up a couple of temp sensors
[20:34] <MrCraig> Cool :-) make sure and transmit their readings too though
[20:36] Action: Laurenceb just got an email inviting his to visit the 'powerbus'
[20:37] <MrCraig> what's the powerbus ?
[20:38] <Laurenceb> a bus equipped with deisel power station
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[20:38] <Laurenceb> so much wtf
[20:38] <MrCraig> o.O
[20:39] <MrCraig> hi mattltm
[20:39] <Lunar_Lander> hi mattltm
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[20:42] <MNSP> mattltm is being a ninja ;)
[20:43] <mattltm> Boo!
[20:43] Action: MrCraig jumps out of his skin.
[20:43] <mattltm> Oh, you want to put that back on!
[20:43] <MrCraig> hehe
[20:45] <MNSP> hows it going?
[20:46] <mattltm> Good. But I have just found out that I have to work tomorrow :(
[20:46] <fsphil> I just found out eurovision is on next week :(
[20:46] <MrCraig> You have to work too many weekends :-(
[20:48] <MNSP> LOL fsphil, I wonder how your mind works sometimes
[20:49] <mattltm> MrCraig: Tell me bout it. Joys of being the boss!
[20:50] <MrCraig> Ahh I knew I made the right choice becoming an engineer again.
[20:52] <griffonbot> @estoddard: RT @RITBlimp: Check out the #arhab launch at #RIT this Saturday! Please RT! http://j.mp/mNSTAf [http://twitter.com/estoddard/status/66606296744464384]
[21:03] <Laurenceb> at least its not a orbo powerbus with eestor capacitors and driven by david icke
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> I still want David Icke to be real.
[21:10] <SpeedEvil> No - wait - eestor.
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[21:17] <MNSP> $$MNSP, 1, 21:16:52, Lat/Long(float): 51.89377, -0.38120 Alt: 162.30
[21:17] <MNSP> fsphil, you are a superstar :)
[21:17] <MNSP> char timestr[20];
[21:17] <MNSP> sprintf(timestr,", %02d:%02d:%02d,",hour,minute,second);
[21:17] <MNSP> Serial.print(timestr);
[21:18] Action: SpeedEvil tries to work out how to sell mirro film on ebay.
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[21:19] Action: MrCraig ponders: is it time to start buying shares in hydrogen storage tech yet?
[21:19] <SpeedEvil> I prefer to store mine conveniently bound up with oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and other elemnents, in the form of extra-mature cheddar.
[21:19] <MNSP> $$MNSP, 25, 21:19:04, Lat/Long(float): 51.89374, -0.38123 Alt: 164.5 -- Note I can now see the 0 in the seconds :)
[21:20] <MrCraig> SpeedEvil: efficient bio fuel, nice.
[21:21] Action: MNSP wonders if SpeedEvil looks like Wallace? :p
[21:26] <SpeedEvil> I look nothing like Mel Gibson.
[21:26] <MNSP> LOL now that I wasn't expecting
[21:28] <SpeedEvil> I lived under the Wallace monument for a bit though.
[21:30] <MNSP> times were hard? :P
[21:31] <SpeedEvil> Stirling University.
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[21:31] <W0OTM> Hello
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> hello W0OTM
[21:48] <W0OTM> iHAB-5 on Sunday
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[21:58] <MNSP> right, that's me done. night chaps :)
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[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> cool W0OTM !
[22:12] <Laurenceb> have you heard what happened when they turned on osamas laptop?
[22:12] <Laurenceb> "Your symantec AV trial expired 435 days ago"
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> LOL
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> for real or comedy?
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[22:14] <Laurenceb> erm its a joke
[22:14] <Laurenceb> i dont think theyd actually say that at a press conference
[22:15] <Lunar_Lander> lol
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[22:39] <MrCraig> goodnight habbers
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[23:38] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3-x-120mah-3-7V-Lipo-Akku-battery-260A-nine-Eagles-/220768070976?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item3366cd6d40 - interesting - hadn't quite seen li-ion this narrow befroe
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[00:00] --- Sat May 7 2011