highaltitude.log.20110430

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[00:21] <hibby> fsphil: I use a swr meter from time to time - the 817 meter is woefully unreliable
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[00:30] <griffonbot> @nearsys: We're on for a launch Saturday, April 30th, 7 AM. Callsigns KD4STH and K0KU. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/64124512366624768]
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[01:00] <hibby> 4nac2
[01:00] <hibby> **4nec2
[01:00] <hibby> lol
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[01:39] <griffonbot> @W0OTM: Doing last cryogenic test on the cutdown module for the iHAB-4 flight tomorrow. #arhab #hamradio [http://twitter.com/W0OTM/status/64141760598769664]
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[02:33] <griffonbot> @W0OTM: Now thats freakin cold! BUT the cutdown module worked great! #arhab #hamradio http://t.co/BXlAcj2 [http://twitter.com/W0OTM/status/64155461276024832]
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[02:38] <W0OTM> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4voKhzUflM
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[04:37] Action: griffonbot is following: #arhab #ukhas #cusf #atlasballoon
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[07:57] <mattltm> Hi all :)
[08:20] <SpeedEvil> Hi.
[08:21] <mattltm> Hey SpeedEvil :)
[08:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[08:51] <m1x10> Hi all
[08:52] <m1x10> I live in paradise.
[08:55] <m1x10> I am sitting on a table with my laptop with 3G internet usb stick nearby an exotic summer beach
[08:56] <m1x10> Here lie a German family a family from holland and me !
[08:56] <SpeedEvil> :)
[08:56] <mattltm> Im in a back room in chatham. It's windy.
[08:56] <SpeedEvil> I'm in sunny scotland, playing with my new solar panel.
[08:56] <m1x10> its so perfect
[08:56] <SpeedEvil> Currently it's pumping into a 40l barrel, with a 15c rise from 8:30 to 9:30
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[08:57] <mattltm> SpeedEvil: Nice, do you have any details?
[08:57] <SpeedEvil> 18 tube solar collector from ebay - heatpipe - 57*1800 tubes
[08:57] <SpeedEvil> ~1.5kw peak
[08:57] <m1x10> sun, sand, salt, green exotic water, laptop, nescafe, birds singing
[08:58] <m1x10> 7.3mbps connection
[08:58] <mattltm> Pump or gravity flow?
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[08:58] <m1x10> usb stick on a tree 3 meters away from me
[08:59] <SpeedEvil> mattltm: Pump.
[09:00] <m1x10> i just cant work the usb stick with my files
[09:00] <mattltm> Nice
[09:00] <m1x10> stupid laptop
[09:00] <SpeedEvil> mattltm: Withthe solar manifold being horizontal - anything else would be problematic.
[09:00] <m1x10> reboot
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[09:00] <mattltm> I see.
[09:00] <SpeedEvil> mattltm: It's very much an improvised system at the moment - propped up on a huge pile of insulation.
[09:00] <SpeedEvil> mattltm: And the barrel is not actually insulated, and has wind blowing on it
[09:01] <mattltm> I built a solar preheater for a friend last summer using a old bath :)
[09:01] <SpeedEvil> I'm pondering a preheater flat panel.
[09:01] <SpeedEvil> With a low temp and high temp thermal store.
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[09:01] <SpeedEvil> All DIY - nothing actually expensive
[09:03] <mattltm> We used a bath with about 150M of poly pipe in it, a diy panel made from leftover 22mm coper pipe and a small PC watercooler pump.
[09:03] <SpeedEvil> Ah - PC watercooler piumps
[09:03] <SpeedEvil> that's what I was looing for.
[09:03] <SpeedEvil> looking
[09:03] <SpeedEvil> Even the smallest CH pumps tend to be a bit big
[09:05] <mattltm> Yup, nice slow flow to fill the bath with hot water.
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[09:24] Action: fsphil tis awake
[09:27] <m1x10> hi fsphil!
[09:28] <fsphil> hiya m1x10, you still on that beach?
[09:28] <mattltm> Hi fsphil :)
[09:29] <fsphil> mornin mattltm ! good drive back?
[09:29] <mattltm> Not bad ta. Got pulled over on the M4 though :p
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[09:30] <m1x10> yes
[09:30] <mattltm> How didyou get on /P?
[09:30] <m1x10> ill be here until tomorrow
[09:30] <fsphil> "Evening Sir, What's all these antennas? You planning something?"
[09:31] <mattltm> lol. I was doing 81 and he told me to "keep it under 80"!
[09:31] <mattltm> Didn;t give me a ticket though.
[09:32] <fsphil> I passed a copy with a speed camera, though it was on a slow part of the road. weird
[09:32] <fsphil> Doing /P was fun. no voice contacts other than our brief one. but wspr worked fantastically well
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[09:32] <mattltm> Yea, a bit of a role reversal yesterday. I could hear naff all! A whole ton of static though.
[09:33] <fsphil> yea I had the same static
[09:33] <mattltm> Nigey was saying that there was a big sloar flare a few days back.
[09:34] <fsphil> Not sure what caused it .. there was a fairly big thundrestorm in central england at the time
[09:35] <fsphil> I should have a beasier radio for next time
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[09:47] <NigelMoby> Meh
[09:49] <fsphil> it's a lovely morning, don't meh :p
[09:51] <NigelMoby> It's not
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[09:57] <mattltm> lol. Not broken it already Nigey?
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[09:59] <NigelMoby> It's decided it doesnt want to send txts...and after 5 hours of checking connections I'm bout ready to throw it at someone lol
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[10:01] <mattltm> It's prob down to that dodgy soldering :p
[10:01] <NigelMoby> Lol
[10:02] <NigelMoby> User error prolly, I was kinda tired last night
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[10:20] <mattltm> I need a signal generator :(
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[11:58] <m1x10> hi again
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[12:45] <m1x10> ping all
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[12:53] <jcoxon> Afternoon
[12:53] <SpeedEvil> Afternoon.
[12:54] Action: SpeedEvil wishes optical transcutaneous glucometry was easier.
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[13:12] <m1x10> hi
[13:12] <m1x10> DS18B20 temp sensor: why it outputs 85C sometimes
[13:12] <m1x10> ?
[13:14] <russss> that means it can't be read
[13:14] <russss> for whatever reason
[13:14] <russss> I think the datasheet explains it
[13:15] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[13:15] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering why the pump for my improvised solar system was making wierrd noises.
[13:16] <SpeedEvil> It turns out it ill do that if it it's getting steam blown back through it
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[13:33] <Laurenceb> wow
[13:33] <Laurenceb> sounds like its getting a bit hot
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[13:34] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> 40l container that was at 11C this morrning.
[13:34] <BrainDamage> what are you using as condenser?
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[13:34] <SpeedEvil> It's not actually meant to be steam :)
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> the large barrel of water
[13:36] <Laurenceb> so whats the setup atm?
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> Old CH pump - 40l barrel - solar panel
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> It's not actually sensibly usable.
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[13:37] <SpeedEvil> It's more for screwing around with, and working out stuff about what I want to do eventually.
[13:38] <Laurenceb> then solar panel returns to barrel?
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[13:39] <Laurenceb> so the water is at boiling point?
[13:42] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power#Dealing_with_launch_costs
[13:42] <Laurenceb> ^so space based solar with flacon9 launch would cost less than coal
[13:42] <Laurenceb> crazy
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[13:48] <BrainDamage> it doubles as orbital weapon
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[13:49] <Laurenceb> the pilot microwave beam idea is smart
[13:53] <m1x10> does anyone have code for the DS18B20 temp sensor?
[13:53] <m1x10> all the examples i find are for paracitic mode while i use the normal.
[13:54] <Randomskk> I would use parasitic mode unless you have the part without it
[13:54] <Randomskk> a lot of them secretly require it
[13:54] <m1x10> Randomskk: show me your code plz
[13:55] <Randomskk> I don't think I have any lying around. I did it ages ago, it wasn't too h ard
[13:55] <Randomskk> there's loads and loads online though, it's a really common part
[13:55] <Randomskk> I think the sparkfun page for that part has sample code
[13:55] <mattltm> m1x10: NigeyS may have some
[13:55] <m1x10> yes all of them use parasitic mode
[13:56] <Randomskk> so did I
[13:56] <Randomskk> I recommend you do too
[13:56] <mattltm> NigeyS may have some sample code that works..
[13:56] <m1x10> no code with normal mode
[13:56] <Randomskk> that should tell you something
[13:57] <Laurenceb> theres a nice atmel app note somewhere about using the uart to drive 1-wire
[13:58] <m1x10> Randomskk in parasitic mode u still need the 4.7k resistor?
[13:59] <Randomskk> probably, I can't remember. it should be in the datasheet.
[14:02] <fsphil> data in the datasheet?
[14:03] <fsphil> it's sooo warm today, nice to see
[14:04] <Randomskk> yea :D
[14:07] <m1x10> If the DS18B20 is powered by an
[14:07] <m1x10> external supply, the master can issue read time slots after the Convert T command and the DS18B20 will
[14:07] <m1x10> respond by transmitting a 0 while the temperature conversion is in progress and a 1 when the conversion
[14:07] <m1x10> is done.
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[14:36] <NigelMoby> M1x
[14:36] <NigelMoby> Github.com/Nigeyuk ... temp sensor code
[14:37] <NigelMoby> Oops nigeysuk that should be.
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[14:41] <mattltm-mob> hey all.
[14:41] <NigelMoby> Baaaaa
[14:42] <mattltm-mob> what's up NigeyS.
[14:42] <mattltm-mob> still not working?
[14:42] <NigelMoby> Nip
[14:43] <NigelMoby> Going to throw it at the cat in a min lol
[14:43] <mattltm-mob> strange. all wired right?
[14:44] <NigelMoby> Yup, voltage is fine, resistor is fine .. just refuses to txt
[14:44] <mattltm-mob> odd
[14:45] <NigelMoby> Very, I even rewired the phone cable
[14:45] <mattltm-mob> I'm sitting in the waiting room whilst the car gets its mot.
[14:46] <NigelMoby> Oo mots are fun
[14:46] <mattltm-mob> Have you checked for anymore shorts?
[14:47] <NigelMoby> Yup, none found, rest of the code etc running fine
[14:47] <mattltm-mob> that is bazaar.
[14:48] <NigelMoby> When I can be arsed ill put a 328 on a breadboard with the phone and try that
[14:49] <mattltm-mob> I was going to suggest rebuilding it on a breadboard
[14:49] <mattltm-mob> see it it works.
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[14:51] <mattltm-mob> heard anymore on your yagi?
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[14:53] <NigelMoby> Not yet, ill try later though
[14:57] <griffonbot> @KB1LQC: Only 1 week left until it's #arhab launch at @imagineRIT ! #RIT [http://twitter.com/KB1LQC/status/64342648617582592]
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[15:16] <mattltm-mob> Thrown it out the window yet Nigey?
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[15:27] <hibby> None of the CU spaceflight lot have any links with camb-hams, do you?
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[15:33] <eroomde> hibby: hi
[15:34] <eroomde> hrm, i know a few of them
[15:34] <eroomde> gavin batemant, rob chipperfield
[15:34] <eroomde> etc
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[15:39] <hibby> cool
[15:40] <eroomde> why d'yask?
[15:40] <hibby> they're coming up this way for a dxpedition, is all
[15:40] <eroomde> ah right
[15:40] <eroomde> well, say hi to either of those two
[15:44] <hibby> lol
[15:44] <hibby> will do.
[15:45] <hibby> looks like this tnc can't do it's rtty thang in vhf
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[15:54] <NigelMoby> Ping eroomde
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[16:02] <NigeyS> thats better
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[16:26] <Elijah_> ANSR flight 62 is up, under KA7NSR-11 and -12 if anyone's interested
[16:27] <NigeyS> oh cool, tnx for the info Elijah_ :)
[16:28] <NigeyS> 2 up at the same time ?
[16:28] <Elijah_> Also our onboard crossband repeater is on echolink KC7LED-R and IRLP reflector 9256
[16:28] <Elijah_> It's the same balloon, but we always fly at least 2 beacons on it
[16:29] <NigeyS> ahh got ya
[16:29] <Elijah_> actually there's 3 on this one, N7ERU-13 is a tiny one
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[16:29] <NigeyS> nice! .. what size balloons ?
[16:29] <NigeyS> balloon*
[16:30] <Elijah_> This flight is a 3000g, I believe kamont
[16:30] <NigeyS> wow, altitude record eh? :p
[16:30] <Elijah_> Hehe I doubt it, this is a flight for a bunch of local schools, there's probably 25 lbs of payload or so on it
[16:31] <NigeyS> :o blimey
[16:31] <NigeyS> ping SpeedEvil how's the panel enjoying this lovely sunshine? :D
[16:31] <Elijah_> Our highest was 117K ft, but that was a 3000g with only a lb or so :-)
[16:32] <NigeyS> oh right, be interesting to see how high this gets with that kind of payload weight
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> NigeyS: I had it covered since 1PM, since it was boiling the temporary storage tank.
[16:33] <NigeyS> lol seriously? :o
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[16:33] <NigeyS> guess it worth the money then!
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> I need to work out how I'm going to properly hook itup
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[16:33] <NigeyS> what size tank ?
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Somewhat from an improved quality of life POV - not having to think about using hot water forex.
[16:33] <Elijah_> Evacuated tubes or something?
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[16:33] <russss> SpeedEvil: when we used to have a spare solar panel at my dad's place, we had it working with a gravity-fed header tank.
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> 40l at the moment
[16:34] <russss> (which was a dustbin)
[16:34] <NigeyS> oo 40L is a fair wack of water
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> Without pumping?
[16:34] <russss> yeah, no pumping
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> russss: Was the manifold tube horizontal?
[16:34] <russss> just had the top of the panel attached to a spigot in the top of the dustbin, and vice versa
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> Or do you just mean a once-through system from mains?
[16:36] <russss> we didn't do anything with the hot water, it was an experiment. We should have done.
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> ah
[16:36] <russss> but AIUI most commercial hot water solar systems have a primary + secondary loop, with the primary being gravity fed
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> How does it start up?
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> If the manifold tube is horizontal.
[16:38] <russss> the heat exchanger/tank is above the panel, and the hot water rises up into it
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> Oh - one ofthose.
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> This has a horizontal 22mm pipe as a collector
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> hence no thermosiphon initially
[16:38] <russss> ah
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> Unless I mount it at 30 degrees or so on the roof
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> Which I could do - but...
[16:42] <cuddykid> done a fair amount of work on payload today, fixed a toggle switch onto the outside to enable public to turn buzzer off. Cut out the shapes of components in the polystyrene for secure packaging! However, just weighed payload box with all components but backup tracker (weighs only ~50g) and its coming to 800G. This is without parachute etc... hmm, will it be alright with just a 24" parachute?!
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:43] <Elijah_> I'd say the 24" parachute is plenty, that's not much weight
[16:44] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: you could have a solar powered pump
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: True.
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> I'm sort-of-looking for small DC pumps
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> OTOH - the groundfos pump I have only uses 40W
[16:45] <NigeyS> cuddykid, you'll prolly want a 30" +
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> So I'm also sort-of-looking for a VFD
[16:45] <cuddykid> ahh :S
[16:45] <cuddykid> hmm, will it be like a missile with the 24"? lol
[16:45] <NigeyS> gtg bbq .. back later :)
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[16:46] <Elijah_> I believe this is a 40" spherechute on this flight, and we've flown that with over 30 lbs of payload
[16:47] <Elijah_> figure the area to weight ratio, you're way over with 24"
[16:47] <Laurenceb> http://www.datasheetarchive.com/AN2263-datasheet.html#
[16:49] <Laurenceb> http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-32/DSA-630972.html
[16:49] <cuddykid> Elijah_, hopefully it'll be alright
[16:50] <Laurenceb> the last section - motor esc
[16:53] <Elijah_> I think it'll be a great plenty
[16:53] <Laurenceb> "For the testing, a load of 1600W from a vacuum cleaner motor has been used."
[16:53] <Laurenceb> hmm probably a universal motor
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[16:54] <Laurenceb> not induction
[16:54] <Elijah_> a 1600W vacuum cleaner? That sounds like kind of a lot :-)
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> It's not really atypical
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: They are invariably uiniversal
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> series wound
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[16:55] <Laurenceb> VFD = variable frequency?
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> In other words - I have some stereo class D amps of about the right power, and a huge variety of transformers
[16:56] <Laurenceb> but how far can you take the frequency and it still work?
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> No clue.
[16:57] <Laurenceb> oh i understand now - induction motors have to rotate at some constant X the frequency
[16:57] <Laurenceb> *
[16:58] <Laurenceb> and as you load them they develop a phase lag
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> It's more a slip
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> 'normal' induction motors might run at 1425Hz - not 1500Hz which would be the truly synchronus speed - at rated power
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> 'fan' or pump motors are designed to run with a lot more slip
[17:00] <Laurenceb> interesting
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> It's all in the reference frame - the rotor is really a brake
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> Against the rotating field
[17:02] <hibby> doctor who ;)
[17:12] <Elijah_> Looks like it burst at 88K ft, not as high today
[17:15] <Elijah_> The onboard computer generates landing predictions under KA7NSR (no ssid)
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[17:22] <m1x10> hi
[17:22] <mattltm> hi :)
[17:22] <m1x10> what could be a possible reason that the ubx responds are timed out?
[17:25] <m1x10> if (millis() - startTime > 3000) {
[17:25] <m1x10> Serial.println(" (FAILED!)");
[17:25] <m1x10> return false;
[17:25] <m1x10> }
[17:25] <m1x10> Timeout if no valid response in 3 seconds
[17:26] <m1x10> this is what i mean
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[18:09] <hibby> dead unit
[18:09] <hibby> we had that
[18:10] <hibby> I think increasing my nec simulation to 1 degree was a bad plan
[18:12] <m1x10> cheeeeeck
[18:12] <m1x10> Volts: 3255
[18:12] <m1x10> Temperature (C): 16
[18:12] <m1x10> Barometric pressure (mb): 1007
[18:12] <m1x10> $PUBX,00,181227.00,4002.57304,N,02348.83536,E,93.512,G3,11,26,2.715,234.49,-1.524,,1.48,2.51,1.52,5,0,0*7C
[18:13] <hibby> looks positive
[18:13] <hibby> using the modified tinygps to parse it?
[18:13] <m1x10> nop
[18:13] <m1x10> my own
[18:13] <hibby> I wrote my own parser, it randomly wouldn't work, so I gave in and used the library
[18:29] <Laurenceb> http://wandel.ca/homepage/computer-from-behind.jpg
[18:29] <Laurenceb> welcome to the internets
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[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:19] <NigeyS> evening
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[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> hello NigeyS
[19:23] <NigeyS> hi kev
[19:25] <LazyLeopard> hiya
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> hi LazyLeopard
[19:28] <LazyLeopard> Up to much?
[19:29] Action: LazyLeopard needs to do something about an HF antenna for taking hiking...
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[19:30] <NigeyS> m1x10 have you fixed your temp sensor code now ?
[19:31] <m1x10> i think yes
[19:31] <m1x10> but not 100% sure
[19:31] <m1x10> i have 1 degree difference from my car's sensor
[19:47] <NigeyS> well the sensors are .5 degree accuracy so id say thats not a bad result :)
[19:51] <m1x10> what about the tmp36 http://www.ladyada.net/learn/sensors/tmp36.html
[19:51] <m1x10> ?
[19:51] <m1x10> looks very good
[19:53] <NigeyS> .1 degree, seems pretty good
[19:54] <m1x10> it does not need any resistors
[19:55] <m1x10> and its coding is a couple of lines
[19:55] <m1x10> not like the DS18B20
[20:01] <Randomskk> it's also an analog signal, liable to all sorts of issues
[20:01] <Randomskk> aand isn't anything like 0.1 degree C accuracy
[20:02] <Randomskk> +/- 2C accuracy over its range, +/- 0.5C linearity, resolution depends on your ADC, noise depends on your local environment and ADC
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[20:04] <mattltm> Hi all :)
[20:04] <NigeyS> hey matt
[20:05] <LazyLeopard> Hiya mattltm
[20:05] <fsphil> yooyoo
[20:05] <mattltm> Hey LazyLeopard, fsphil :)
[20:06] <m1x10> Randomskk: is it good then?
[20:06] <Randomskk> m1x10: meh, it's a temperature sensor, it works
[20:06] <Randomskk> there are better
[20:06] <Randomskk> I would use a DS18B20
[20:06] <Randomskk> depends what you need though
[20:06] <Randomskk> for actually accurate temperature measurement maybe an SHT15 and calibration or something
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[20:10] <m1x10> DS18B20 needs much more software and extre components
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> you can drive itr fromone GPIO
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[20:23] <mattltm> Lol. TX @ 20W on 160M kills my adsl modem :)
[20:24] <LazyLeopard> Uh oh...
[20:24] <fsphil> pesky photons, getting into the tubes
[20:24] <Randomskk> transmitting 35X on 2m with the antenna next to my nixie clock destroys it, it's great
[20:24] <LazyLeopard> Overhead phone lines?
[20:24] <Randomskk> it fades, flickers, resets a few times to 1111, then eventually dies
[20:24] <Randomskk> once I stop transmitting it picks right up
[20:24] <mattltm> LazyLeopard: Yes :p
[20:25] <LazyLeopard> Work very well as antennae, don't they. ;)
[20:26] <LazyLeopard> ...particularly when they're strung for miles and miles across the countryside.
[20:26] <mattltm> Yup.
[20:26] <benoxley> Good evening
[20:27] <mattltm> I wonder how many people in this area just lost their internet for 5 seconds?
[20:29] <NigeyS> lol
[20:29] <NigeyS> hi benoxley
[20:29] <benoxley> wanted to ask a quick question if anyone can help :)
[20:30] <benoxley> I'm looking at building a system to put in balloon necks to control float height of balloons to increase flight times as a second-year project. Does this seem like a good idea or are there more sensible ways of doing it?
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> You mean a valve?
[20:31] <benoxley> pretty much
[20:31] <SpeedEvil> The simplest way to control ballloon height is a string tied to an elephant.
[20:31] <benoxley> coupled with a differential pressure sensor
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[20:31] <SpeedEvil> Why differential?
[20:32] Nick change: im -> Guest59101
[20:32] <benoxley> gives a better idea of how much gas escapes based on how open the valve is
[20:32] <Randomskk> normal latex balloons?
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> I question ifthat's true.
[20:32] <benoxley> Randomskk: yes
[20:32] <Randomskk> won't the internal pressure be equal to ambient anyway?
[20:32] <Laurenceb> im currently working with a 26pc01smt diff pressure sensor
[20:32] <SpeedEvil> It will give you an idea of internal pressure of course.
[20:32] <benoxley> it should be slightly higher
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: no
[20:33] <Laurenceb> +-1psi
[20:33] <Randomskk> didn't think there was very much difference in it, though I guess it will be a bit higher
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: It's ~1-4mB (based on the data found by the earlier accidental latex floater)
[20:33] <Randomskk> fair enough
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> Someone was planning onputting a differential pressure sensor in a balloon.
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> A graph of diameter/pressure at low temeperature would be interesting
[20:34] <benoxley> do you think it would work as a system for achieving sustained flight?
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> No.
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> You can extend the flight quite a lot.
[20:34] <Randomskk> all you can do is let gas out
[20:34] <benoxley> thats what i mean
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> But you would need ballast too.
[20:34] <benoxley> not completely endless
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> And theballoon also degrades.
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> With UV
[20:35] <benoxley> "extended" flight then
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[20:36] <benoxley> why would you need ballast?
[20:38] <eroomde> to reduce your mass to account for a loss of helium
[20:38] <eroomde> through diffusion
[20:38] <benoxley> how considerable is the rate of diffusion?
[20:39] <eroomde> imagine you could see how far apart my hands are right now. well, that's how considerable it is
[20:39] <benoxley> lol
[20:40] <eroomde> but you'd need to consider it if you were looking for say 12h+ floats
[20:40] <benoxley> I wasn't looking for much above that really
[20:40] <eroomde> given you only need a tiny bit of diffusion from being neutrally bouyant to become negatively bouyant
[20:40] <Randomskk> I'd imagine telem and recovery gets pretty tricky after 12 hours in the air
[20:41] <benoxley> mhm
[20:41] <Randomskk> then again, some of the ballasthalo launches did get a fair amount of airtime...
[20:41] <eroomde> < 12 hrs
[20:41] <eroomde> and only one floated
[20:41] <Randomskk> fair bit less
[20:41] <eroomde> the others were just very low vertical rates
[20:41] <eroomde> i remember as i filled them.
[20:42] <benoxley> would you say it would make for an interesting third-year individual project though?
[20:42] <benoxley> well, more about worthwhile than interesting
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[20:43] <SpeedEvil> I'd also wonder about lightweight hydrogen generator modules
[20:43] <eroomde> benoxley: if you could make a good model for float behaviour, yes
[20:43] <eroomde> i think it might otherwise be a bit light on mathemtaical rigour
[20:44] <eroomde> but if you could model the thermodynamics of floating, and design a control algorithm for ballast dropping, say, that would be super cool
[20:44] <SpeedEvil> Float bhaviour is balloon mechanics + ideal gas + standard atmosphere + radiativeheat balance + thermoelastic proertires of latex, it's not complex.
[20:44] <SpeedEvil> actually...
[20:45] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: ok, less talk, go and figure it out
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> I have no energy for this stuff at themoment, and no budget.
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> It's all going into renovations.
[20:46] <Randomskk> any ideas on improving a ~1M resistor from parts I might have lying around my room that do not include resistors?
[20:46] <eroomde> improvising*?
[20:46] <Randomskk> oh, yes
[20:46] <Randomskk> well I meant "improv"ing
[20:46] <griffonbot> @W0OTM: IHAB-4 payload recovered. #arhab #hamradio [http://twitter.com/W0OTM/status/64430549833486336]
[20:46] <Randomskk> but sadly that's another word
[20:47] <eroomde> at what frequency?
[20:47] <Randomskk> basically DC. it's just a touch sensor with a darlington pair
[20:47] <benoxley> this might me a bit insane / stupid but what if you stored a small amount of liquid helium on the payload to refill the balloon?
[20:47] <fsphil> I made a resistor with some wires, a pencil and paper once :)
[20:47] <Randomskk> but 2" of wire hanging off the base is enough to pick up energy from my room that's enough to trigger the sodding thing
[20:47] <Randomskk> should really do a capacitive sensor but that's more code and I'm shortish on time
[20:48] <Randomskk> all I have is two 10k resistors for some reason :/
[20:48] <Randomskk> fsphil: have you seen the drawdio?
[20:48] <fsphil> nah
[20:48] <Randomskk> uses that + an oscillator to make music (well, sound) as you draw
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[20:48] <Randomskk> so the pitch varies with trace length/resistance
[20:49] <fsphil> haha, like that
[20:49] <Randomskk> http://drawdio.com/
[20:50] <eroomde> benoxley: you'd have to have a cryogenic storage thing on your balloon
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> Or a hydrogen generator
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> Little block of water and sodium
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> mush them together, wait a bit for the hydrogen to finish evolving, drop the ballast
[20:50] <eroomde> sodium might get upset on the way up
[20:51] <eroomde> but NaOH + AL might be interesting
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> I've also wondered about other things.
[20:51] <eroomde> it'd be hot too
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> Add butane to the balloon
[20:51] <eroomde> that also lets you dump ballast as water
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> Well - propane, probably
[20:51] <eroomde> so you both add helium and make the thing lighter simultaneously
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> Hmm - on reflectionIshould go and look at a phase diagram possibly
[20:52] <Laurenceb> i tried NaOH +AL for filling balloons once
[20:52] <Laurenceb> its a pita as the reaction is so exothermic and reaction rate increases exponentially with temperature
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[20:52] <SpeedEvil> and you need to deal withthe water evolution
[20:53] <Laurenceb> i guess dripping NaOH onto alu scrap kind of works
[20:53] <Laurenceb> but you need a large condeser
[20:53] <Laurenceb> and it tends to foam up a lot
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: 'sodium would get upset on the way up' ?
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I was assuming something like a longish length of layflat tube as a condensor
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> which got dropped as ballast
[20:54] <Laurenceb> at one point i investigated a huge lenght of trailing layflat tube
[20:54] <Laurenceb> made from really thin polythene
[20:54] <Laurenceb> then use a fan to blow air up it
[20:55] <Laurenceb> and try and get varying levels on condensation/ice on the inside
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> You'd really need to test it at low temperatures though.
[20:56] <SpeedEvil> And at low pressure too, otherwise convection will dominate
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[21:02] <Randomskk> oh man, my room is full of radiation. the scope picks up 1.4V pk-pk 50hz ac
[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> back
[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> what are you discussing?
[21:03] <Lunar_Lander> SpeedEvil and Laurenceb
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> I forget
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[21:03] <SpeedEvil> hydrogen generators
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> interesting
[21:04] <griffonbot> @nearsys: The KU flight reached 101,188 feet with 7 BalloonSats. Recovery was in an opened field, no trees this time. Look for a report soon. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/64434962362937345]
[21:04] Action: SpeedEvil is depressed that you need such low pressures for a thermos to work.
[21:04] <SpeedEvil> At a pascal, thermal conductivity starts to crash, for scales of 1cm
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> and low pressure sensors
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> SpeedEvil do you know the Pirani gauge?
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> Vaguely.
[21:06] <Lunar_Lander> my professor said we can't use that
[21:06] <SpeedEvil> I'm more familiar with the Biriani guage.
[21:06] <Lunar_Lander> as it needs high voltage and is too heavy
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> For what?
[21:07] <Lunar_Lander> Pirani has a hot wire in it
[21:07] <Lunar_Lander> air molecules colliding with the wire cool it down
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> so the current needed to heat the wire to a set temperature changes with pressure
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> and that is used to measure very low pressures
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> wiki says 0.5 to 1*10^-4 torr
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> I don't recall the voltage being high
[21:08] <SpeedEvil> 0.5 torr is too small I think
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:09] <SpeedEvil> 0.5 torr is about 700Pa
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> I just checked, I found no evidence about HV either
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> but do you know how I remembered that gauge?
[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> I read about it in a paper about using the V-2 rocket in the USA as a research vehicle
[21:10] <Laurenceb> oh a hot wire sensor?
[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> they had three pressure gauges: an aneroid, then a Pirani and then a Philips cold-cathode one for the lowest pressues
[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> *pressures
[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> yeah Laurenceb
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirani_gauge
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> Pirani guage is related to my moaning about thermoses.
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> (but biryani looks tasty too!)
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> The conduction to the pirani guage only goes down much when the mean free path gets much over the diameter of the filliment
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
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[21:13] <Laurenceb> surely you want diff pressure tho?
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: Balls!
[21:13] <griffonbot> @Hamradio_Ticker: RT @w0otm: IHAB-4 payload recovered. #arhab #hamradio [http://twitter.com/Hamradio_Ticker/status/64437256223596544]
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: Another fun gauge is the levitated ball gauge.
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: you take a ball bearing. Now you electromagnetically suspend it.
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: Now, you spin it so the speed hits about mach 0.5.
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> And then measure the spin decay.
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> sounds interesting
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> This is anice pressure measurement, as it's independant of gas species.
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> Most other vacuum gauges are sensitive to gas mix,which is unfortunate
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> iHAB-4 already over?
[21:25] <fsphil> cool .... http://www.thinktankphoto.com/products/pixel-sunscreen-v2.aspx
[21:29] <Lunar_Lander> did iHAB-4 fly?
[21:29] <Lunar_Lander> cool fsphil :)
[21:29] <fsphil> I was just gonna make one out of cardboard :)
[21:30] <fsphil> £57 .. cardboard's looking good
[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> I had a thought as well
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> that "wood looks unprofessional and unscientific"
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> but wood is light and not unprofessional at all
[21:31] <Lunar_Lander> what do you think?
[21:32] <fsphil> sometimes it doesn't have to look professional
[21:32] <fsphil> as long as it works
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> and think of Balsa!!
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> very light, yet strong
[21:34] <fsphil> doesn't fold up as well as cardboard though
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> but I mean on a HAB
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:34] <fsphil> ooooh
[21:34] <fsphil> tis a bit hard :)
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:35] <SpeedEvil> Call it cellulose composite.
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> this is Ranger 4: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/1964_71394L.jpg
[21:35] <Lunar_Lander> the top capsule was to impact the moon and deliver a seismometer
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> and the sphere is made of balsa
[21:36] <fsphil> was it made of balsa?
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:36] <fsphil> sweet!
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> In older reentry capsules wood was popular
[21:36] <fsphil> so they've actually had a spacecraft where part of it was made of wood
[21:36] <SpeedEvil> IIRC phenolic impregnated oak
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> "Ranger 4 was a Block II Ranger spacecraft virtually identical to Ranger 3. The basic vehicle was 331 kg, 3.1 m high and consisted of a lunar capsule covered with a balsawood impact-limiter, 650 mm in diameter, a mono-propellant mid-course motor, a 5080 lbf (22.6 kN) thrust retrorocket, and a gold- and chrome-plated hexagonal base 1.5 m in diameter. A large high-gain dish antenna was attached to the base. Two
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> wing-like solar panels (5.2 m across) were attached to the base and deployed early in the flight. "
[21:37] <fsphil> so even today there's bits of wood on the moon
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> Wood will outgas like anything in space though.
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> SpeedEvil and do you know what they glue to the outside of the Ariane fairing?
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil yes: ". Due to an apparent failure of a timer in the spacecraft's central computer and sequencer following launch the command signals for the extension of the solar panels and the operation of the sun and earth acquisition system were never given. The instrumentation ceased operation after about 10 hours of flight. The spacecraft was tracked by the battery-powered 50 milliwatt transmitter in the lunar landing
[21:37] <Lunar_Lander> capsule. Ranger 4 crashed upon the far side of the Moon (15.5°S 229.3°E) at 9600 km/h at 12:49:53 UT on April 26, 1962 after 64 hours of flight."
[21:39] <Randomskk> amazing what you can do on a few mW :P
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil I read that Luna 2 probably melted on impact
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> maybe Ranger 4 met the same fate
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> I mean, a high-velocity impact with the moon
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> that immense kinetic energy
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> yeah rn :)
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> Randomskk
[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:39] <fsphil> 50mw.. they're spoiled!
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> but that was all the little capsule could deliver
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> as the main transmitter had no power as you read
[21:40] <fsphil> 10mw is enough for anyone :)
[21:40] <Laurenceb> i have some of the original time magazines about Ranger4
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[21:41] <Laurenceb> somewhere...
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil btw, Ranger 3 and 5 missed the moon
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> so ranger 4 delivered the only balsa to the lunar surface
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:41] <fsphil> not surprised.. it's quite a small target from this distance
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> well
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> the trajectory was worked out
[21:41] <Laurenceb> got a bazillion time magazines going from ~1950 to ~1980 in boxes somewhere
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> but Ranger 5 malfunctioned and couldn't correct its course
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> and in Ranger 3 the rocket computer malfunctioned
[21:42] <Laurenceb> tho pretty useless as almost all the photos of cool stuff can be found online now
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil the direct injection technique of the Soviet E-1 probes was much more difficult
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> as you surely remember, Luna 1 missed the moon by 6000 km
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> just because the upper stage burned about one second too long
[21:44] <Laurenceb> explorer one was interesting
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:44] <Laurenceb> spin stabilised upper stages
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> actually the US could have had a satellite earlier in '57
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> when they fired an Jupiter-C with a dummy 4th stage
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> they would have needed a live stage and would have been in orbit
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> but von Braun was strictly forbidden to attempt that
[21:50] <Laurenceb> so anyway, you want to measure diff pressure inside the envelope vrs outside?
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb I was talking about atmospheric pressure first
[21:53] <Laurenceb> ah
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> but differential pressure between balloon and outside would be very interesting as well!
[21:54] <Laurenceb> hmm well two piranis would probably be too inaccurate
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb yeah the Piranis were only for the atmospheric pressure :)
[21:55] <Laurenceb> i see
[21:55] <Laurenceb> ive been using pc01smt from honeywell
[21:56] <Laurenceb> but you need to drive it
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> with what exactly?
[21:56] <Laurenceb> erm interface it
[21:56] <Laurenceb> amplifier and adc
[21:56] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
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[22:22] <griffonbot> @refsvik: Tx to #ukhas for help before MOSCUS launch on apr14. http://bit.ly/iFuey0 Norw. Security Authority only allowed low alt. flight w/cutdown. [http://twitter.com/refsvik/status/64454605953695744]
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[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> damn
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> finally
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> that blog post is done
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[22:48] <hibby> haha
[22:49] <NigeyS> Nato air strike has killed Saif al-Arab, son of Col Gaddafi, Libyan government spokesman says
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> I wrote about "Strato-Jump" and Nick Piantanida for my german audience
[22:49] <NigeyS>
[22:49] <NigeyS> oops
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> because it is the 45th anniversary of Strato-Jump III today
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> the flight that killed him
[22:55] <Upu> NigeyS they are going after Gadaffi no matter what they say
[22:55] <Lunar_Lander> NigeyS & Upu wasn't his son killed weeks ago already?
[22:55] <Upu> no
[22:56] <Upu> basically here is your issue :
[22:56] <Upu> US military bases : http://ipatriot.info/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/86b97_50-us-bases-in-the-middle-east-a.jpg
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[22:57] <Upu> and this : http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/images/article-images/shaw_oil_corridor.gif
[22:57] <Upu> doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together
[22:57] <Upu> humanitarian my ass
[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:57] <Lunar_Lander> still I heard that Gaddafi's son was killed some weeks ago
[22:58] <Upu> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13251570
[22:58] <Laurenceb> well this is out of order
[22:58] <Laurenceb> just as bad as iraq
[22:58] <Upu> "Colonel Gaddafi himself was in the large residential villa which was hit by the strike, the spokesman added, but he was unharmed."
[22:58] <Upu> so defending the civilians
[22:58] <Upu> honestly maybe I'm getting old but its just one lie after another
[23:00] <Upu> maybe there are still looking for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction
[23:00] <Upu> anyway sorry politics, back on topic :)
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[23:11] <NigeyS> before we totally go backon topic, agree with you 100% Upu :)
[23:11] Action: NigeyS plods on with his 433mhz beacon
[23:12] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[23:12] <NigeyS> ill ustream it if it works
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[23:16] <hibby> ooh, is it alive yet?
[23:19] <NigeyS> just setting up
[23:22] <NigeyS> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nigeyuk
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[23:35] <NigeyS> oops batterys low
[23:35] <hibby> hahah
[23:35] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[23:35] <hibby> noticed it's off
[23:36] <Lunar_Lander> video feed off
[23:37] <NigeyS> fixed :)
[23:37] <hibby> also spotted
[23:37] <hibby> then advert o'clock
[23:37] <NigeyS> lol the ads are hilarious
[23:38] <hibby> usually get away without them on firefox, but the office machine don't have that
[23:38] <hibby> and I cba installing
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> do you see that "social stream" on the right?
[23:39] <hibby> aye
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> "Erica I could watch this all day.22 minutes ago
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> Kelsey
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> Kelsey Do you have any dogs? Have you seen the Shiba Inu puppies?22 minutes ago
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> Katie
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> Katie Hahaha, that was really funny.22 minutes ago
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> Emma
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> Emma This is really cool.22 minutes ago
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> Morgan
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> Morgan I saw posts about this show on Twitter, Facebook, Myspace, and AIM! Nuts!"
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> XD
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[23:39] <hibby> I should look at mine- i got pissed and ustreamed me drunkenly sleeping/being hungover
[23:40] <hibby> I think I angered our ISP as the downspeed's been fsking slow lately.
[23:43] <NigeyS> lol
[23:43] <NigeyS> lost ma drill bit cutter grrrrrrr
[23:43] <SpeedEvil> Drill bit sharpner you mean?
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> Hmm - interesting. http://opencores.org/donation
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> Collections for an opensource linuxable processor.
[23:48] <SpeedEvil> I've donated a little.
[23:49] <hibby> is that not what sparc was, in a way?
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> I think the sparc is justthe core
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> IIRC
[23:52] <SpeedEvil> this is core + USB + ...
[23:52] <hibby> oh
[23:52] <hibby> soc kind of stuff
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:54] <SpeedEvil> I question if they can actually make anything competitive - but I've donated a little anyway, as it's a worthy project.
[00:00] --- Sun May 1 2011