highaltitude.log.20110418

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[00:23] Action: NigeyS hates soldering
[00:23] <W0OTM> ahhh
[00:24] <W0OTM> boo hoo
[00:24] <W0OTM> :)
[00:24] <W0OTM> want some cheese with that wine?
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[00:28] <NigeyS> haha pls
[00:29] <NigeyS> my tips to big, but its the only 1 i have here
[00:30] <griffonbot> @Hamradio_Ticker: RT @CollegeARC: #hamradio #arhab If you're in the #roc area come to the Imagine RIT: Innovation & Creativity Festival on May 7th... http& [http://twitter.com/Hamradio_Ticker/status/59775822780825600]
[00:41] <NigeyS> does it matter if i have jumpers, and loops going all over the place? :|
[00:41] <Dan-K2VOL> for what
[00:41] <NigeyS> the stripboard for picochu-1
[00:41] <Dan-K2VOL> I don't know sorry
[00:42] <NigeyS> its not exactly .. tidy .. lol
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[03:04] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: Well the spring release looks like a good idea in practice, now to refine it so that the center rope attaches flush to spring top. #arhab [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/59814568058298369]
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[06:41] <Darkside> http://rfhead.net/?p=79
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[09:05] <eroomde> word-up
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[09:10] <eroomde> good morning NigeyS
[09:12] <NigeyS> morning Ed, just chasing up my helium for thursday .. dam knightmare
[09:12] <eroomde> who have you ordered it from?
[09:13] <NigeyS> my dads company has an account with Air Products so it's coming from them
[09:13] <eroomde> cool
[09:13] <NigeyS> just have to make sure their balloon helium is pure enough
[09:13] <eroomde> 996 is the usual pure stuff i beleive
[09:13] <eroomde> we get really pure research grade stuff cos we're special
[09:14] <NigeyS> haha no fair, i dont thinkit's THAT pure, but as their site has no datasheet i have no idea
[09:14] <eroomde> 999
[09:14] <eroomde> the party balloons stuff is what you want to avoid
[09:14] <eroomde> usually it's a helium/air mix
[09:16] <eroomde> but it's it's a to-business account you probably won't have accidently ordered that
[09:16] <NigeyS> yeah that's what im trying to do, ive only found a helium safety datasheet
[09:16] <eroomde> are air supplies and BOC the same thing?
[09:16] <fsphil> I doubt there'd be much difference between balloon-grade helium and pure helium, from a lift point of view?
[09:17] <eroomde> oh yes
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[09:17] <eroomde> but balloon-grade (stuff you get from party shops) is about 1/3 air
[09:17] <NigeyS> eroomde, no, air products are a different company
[09:17] <eroomde> there'd be piss-all difference bwteen 99.996 and 99.999 though obviously
[09:17] <jonsowman> we used air products for Apex I
[09:18] <NigeyS> green top on the cylinder jon ?
[09:18] <eroomde> well if you use BOC in the future then 271088-L is what we get
[09:18] <jonsowman> lemme find some pictures...
[09:18] <eroomde> the 'L' meaning an L size bottle - you might want smaller
[09:19] <jonsowman> NigeyS: http://apex.hexoc.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=18&pos=20
[09:19] <NigeyS> ahh oki, this lot is just for the pico launch, 4 x 36" .. so the mini bottle should be fine
[09:20] <NigeyS> http://www.airproducts.co.uk/balloon_gas/balloonium_cylinders/choose_your_cylinder.htm
[09:21] <NigeyS> morning fsphil !
[09:21] <fsphil> mornin!
[09:21] <SpeedEvil> Howmuch air isinthepartyballoons stuff?
[09:21] <NigeyS> picochu-1 is looking ... amateurish! lol
[09:22] <jonsowman> don't know what purity that stuff is
[09:22] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: time to de-grease the spacebar switch
[09:22] <SpeedEvil> Sigh.
[09:22] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[09:22] <fsphil> I was warned by BOC that pure helium is really really expensive compared to the balloon-grade stuff
[09:23] <fsphil> though I'm not a company so that'll be with non-discounted prices
[09:23] <SpeedEvil> Extra air will just mean that it bursts a bit earlierr
[09:23] <jonsowman> is 996 what BOC call "balloon grade"?
[09:23] <SpeedEvil> If you launch withthe right lift
[09:23] <SpeedEvil> 50% He would get you ~5km lower burst
[09:24] <NigeyS> oo
[09:24] <eroomde> well, get the 996 at least
[09:24] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[09:24] <eroomde> sod the 999, we just get that because it's easier from an accounts point of view with our sponsorship package
[09:24] <jonsowman> eroomde: is the BOC order code that we use 999 then?
[09:24] <eroomde> yes
[09:24] <jonsowman> right
[09:25] <SpeedEvil> 50% He might be good for altitude attempts if the superpressure effect is real
[09:25] <SpeedEvil> err
[09:25] <SpeedEvil> float attempts
[09:25] <eroomde> not sure it makes a difference does it?
[09:25] <NigeyS> son find out, dads calling later to confirm the size etc
[09:26] <jonsowman> for reference, our Apex I cylinder was an X47S, 10m^3 He
[09:26] <jonsowman> which is approx the same as the BOC L-type cylinders iirc
[09:26] <NigeyS> this 1 is an X10s 1.81m^3
[09:27] <NigeyS> which should be ideal for 4 x 36"'ers
[09:27] <jonsowman> good stuff
[09:27] <NigeyS> as for the flight computer, do i get plus points for wacky design and poor soldering?
[09:28] <SpeedEvil> No. You should just twist all the wires together.
[09:28] <jonsowman> as long as it works...
[09:28] <NigeyS> haha twist and hot glue!
[09:28] Action: jonsowman can't speak after Ferret
[09:28] <NigeyS> jonsowman, oh aye it works, just the avr itself to do now, cant do that till the dip socket gets here tomorrow
[09:28] <eroomde> glue adds mass
[09:28] <eroomde> good soldering i quite important though...
[09:29] <eroomde> dry joints tend to become even drier at -40
[09:29] <NigeyS> actually lets weigh it, see how much solder added to the weight
[09:29] <eroomde> and as for dodgy connectors, don't get me started on my rant
[09:29] <jonsowman> ha
[09:29] <NigeyS> eroomde, this is a 2km float .. itll only get slightly cold
[09:29] <eroomde> h'ok then
[09:29] <eroomde> paint it balck too and it'll be toasty
[09:29] <NigeyS> oo .. i was thinking bubble wrap and mylar :|
[09:30] <jonsowman> does painting a payload black give a net warming effect? it makes it radiate more too surely?
[09:30] <eroomde> depends on the thermal mass of the thing inside
[09:31] <eroomde> but yes. you should therefore put a reflector above the payload
[09:31] <eroomde> so it can't see the sky
[09:31] <jonsowman> makes sense
[09:31] <eroomde> and it only sees the ground and the reflection of the ground from above it
[09:31] <eroomde> except you'll need a servo to angle the reflector away from the sun so it can still the sun
[09:31] <eroomde> so... got all that?
[09:31] <jonsowman> haha
[09:32] <jonsowman> maybe I'll just paint them bright colours to aid recovery...
[09:32] <eroomde> much more sensible :)
[09:32] <eroomde> thermal management isn't really an issue for our habs
[09:32] <eroomde> more of an issue for long duration things
[09:32] <jonsowman> yeah
[09:33] <jonsowman> james' crystal oven is neat, I liked that idea
[09:33] <NigeyS> hmm 49 grams without the ntx2
[09:34] <eroomde> i hope it goes up!
[09:34] <NigeyS> if my maths is right, ive got enough lift for approx 120grams
[09:34] <jonsowman> you can always trim bits off the payload casing, PicoAtlas style
[09:34] <eroomde> we needed more balloons than our pulled-out-of-our-bum-assumptions estimation suggested
[09:35] <NigeyS> jonsowman, ill send it up naked if i have to, either way it's going up lol !
[09:35] <eroomde> your grandmaother has died. lol
[09:35] <NigeyS> lol
[09:35] <eroomde> that still makes me giggle ^
[09:35] <eroomde> (from an article on how older people confusedly thing 'lol' means 'lots of love'
[09:36] <NigeyS> im wondering though if the tech sheet says balloon lift ability 66grams .. does that include the weight of the balloon .. or not
[09:36] <jonsowman> eroomde: my parents do that
[09:37] <jonsowman> NigeyS: who knows
[09:37] <eroomde> this one aswell of the iphone's aggressive autocorrect http://damnyouautocorrect.com/images/divorced.jpg
[09:37] <jonsowman> knowing tech sheets/datasheets, two sig. figs. may not be warranted
[09:37] <jonsowman> eroomde: lol
[09:38] <jonsowman> have you still got an iphone?
[09:38] <NigeyS> lol Ed
[09:38] <eroomde> yes
[09:38] <jonsowman> mm me too, my good old 3G
[09:38] <eroomde> i want a map app that actually displays a gps lat/lon that you give it, not jsut the nearest road to the lat/lon
[09:39] <eroomde> that 'feature' makes it a bunch of bollocks for finding things
[09:39] <eroomde> like balloons
[09:39] <jonsowman> yes I agree
[09:39] <jonsowman> I've jailbroken mine and done some fun things with it
[09:40] <eroomde> eg?
[09:41] <jonsowman> ssh server, so my desktop connects at midnight on a cronjob, retrives the sms database, processes it, and backs it up
[09:42] <jonsowman> also it has apt installed, which is clearly the best way to install jailbreak apps :)
[09:42] <eroomde> it had never occured to me to backup my texts
[09:42] <eroomde> now that it has occured to me, i'm still not sure i'd want to :)
[09:42] <jonsowman> haha
[09:43] <jonsowman> very tempted by this when it appears though http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/12/htc-sensation-first-video-hands-on/
[09:45] Action: SpeedEvil is waiting for the nokia meego phone.
[09:45] <SpeedEvil> Though I'm also prepared to be dissapointed.
[09:45] <SpeedEvil> Unless it's very good, I'm sticking with my n900
[09:50] <fsphil> I think I'll be skipping nokia
[09:51] <SpeedEvil> I love the fact I can run gcc on the phone, and rooting is a matter of dwnloading a package from the stock repository, and typing 'root' (or installing opensshd)
[09:51] <SpeedEvil> I'm very uninterersted in WP7
[09:53] <fsphil> there are supposedly other non-nokia meego phones coming out
[09:54] <SpeedEvil> Perhaps.
[09:54] <SpeedEvil> Mrego is somewhat unfortunate.
[09:54] <SpeedEvil> It's a base stack that is designed to be mostly unusable.
[09:55] <SpeedEvil> All the bits that actually make it functional are verndor customisations.
[10:01] <fsphil> that never ends well
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[10:34] <NigeyS> bugger
[10:34] <jonsowman> wassup?
[10:34] <NigeyS> broke my last jst connector :@
[10:34] <jonsowman> :(
[10:34] <jonsowman> they are a right pain
[10:34] <NigeyS> theyre evil!
[10:35] <NigeyS> means cutting the jst off the lipo and adding something a bit less secure
[10:35] <jonsowman> :(
[10:40] <GW8RAK> NigeyS do you have frequency and time details for thursday yet please?
[10:40] <NigeyS> not set in stone yet but between 10am and 11am .. 434.650 .. i'll post to the ukhas list as soon as it's confirmed
[10:42] <GW8RAK> Thanks, I was just alerting a friend near Llandrindod about it.
[10:42] <NigeyS> ahh brill, should get a great signal if my antenna doesnt fall off, battery doesnt explode, etc etc lol
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[10:55] <eroomde> NigeyS: how did you break it?
[10:56] <NigeyS> with a pair of pliers trying to unplug it from the lipo charger lol
[10:56] <NigeyS> theyre dam tight ya know!
[10:56] <eroomde> gah
[10:56] <eroomde> false economy
[10:56] <NigeyS> hehe
[10:57] <eroomde> http://www.lemo.co.uk/
[10:57] <eroomde> farnell stock these
[10:57] <eroomde> the next payload I build will use them extensively
[11:00] <NigeyS> oh they look rather nice!
[11:01] <eroomde> they are fantastic
[11:01] <eroomde> they click together really positively and are specifically designed to be highly vibration proof
[11:01] <eroomde> they're used in high spec medical, military and other things
[11:02] <NigeyS> :o something tells me theyre not cheap!
[11:02] <eroomde> about £15/half
[11:02] <eroomde> but i've done enough things like this now to be almost unshakably convinced that it's worth it
[11:02] <eroomde> for something that is actually designed to be disconnected and re-connected on anything but a very-infrequent basis anyway
[11:04] <NigeyS> agreed, they have that "i'm not going to break" lookk about them aswell
[11:04] <fsphil> the little jst header yaesu use for the battery in the 817 is totally evil
[11:04] <eroomde> yes, really a bad choice
[11:04] <eroomde> but what can ya do?
[11:05] <fsphil> never disconnect it ever :)
[11:05] <eroomde> any non medical or military connectors tend to just be a bit crappy
[11:05] <eroomde> you wouldn't beleive the number of problems caused by SATA connectors on the SSD on the airship's main computer
[11:05] <fsphil> there are better choices, even for simple battery connectors
[11:05] <eroomde> they're just a crap standard, purely designed to save 5 cents for a production run on a million motherboards
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[11:10] <NigeyS> nooooooo light rain forecast for thursday
[11:10] <eroomde> gah
[11:10] <eroomde> that'll add several grams of mass to the balloons
[11:10] <eroomde> you're at the really crappy end of the volume to surface area ratio
[11:11] <eroomde> ... spectrum
[11:11] <NigeyS> yup, thats somewhat of an understatement, why thursday, the only day this week i preferred to launch and its the only day they forecast bloody rain! :@
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[11:21] <fsphil> the forecasts have been fairly bad lately
[11:21] <fsphil> expect sunshine :)
[11:22] <NigeyS> fingers crossed
[11:22] <NigeyS> just spotted something on google maps which has got me puzzled mind
[11:31] <Laurenceb_> jst connectors are nice
[11:31] <Laurenceb_> just trim off the little tabs with a knife
[11:31] <Laurenceb_> and then they dont lock any more
[11:32] <NigeyS> ya, last time i tried that i had 3 stitches
[11:32] <Laurenceb_> :S
[11:32] <NigeyS> im clumsy like that
[11:32] Action: Laurenceb_ just stabbed himself in the nose with a pair of scissors
[11:32] <NigeyS> lol duh!
[11:32] <Laurenceb_> its bleeding now :(
[11:32] <Laurenceb_> at least i missed my eye
[11:33] <NigeyS> ive done some right silly things, once i used a screwdriver to open a paint tin, slipped and stabbed my hand with the screwdriver, 6 stitches!
[11:34] <Laurenceb_> but yeah, lemo is awesome, but jst has the advantage of being light
[11:34] <Laurenceb_> it is possible to remove unmodified connectors using a flat head screwdriver
[11:34] <NigeyS> light and cheap, nice combo in certain circumstances
[11:35] <NigeyS> good point
[11:35] <Laurenceb_> one option - remove the locking tab at one side, then its easier to remove with a screwdriver
[11:36] <NigeyS> ahhh now that i can probably live with
[11:36] <Laurenceb_> and also dont come lose by its own
[11:36] <Laurenceb_> *wont
[11:39] <NigeyS> lipos dont like being pierced right ?
[11:40] <NigeyS> thinking of putting a strip of gaffa tape on the reverse of the pcb then a layer of bubblewrap, then the lipo ..
[11:42] <Laurenceb_> they certainly dont
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OsBc8RqSKU
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> NigeyS:
[11:43] <NigeyS> bloody hell
[11:44] <NigeyS> make that 2 layers of bubblewrap!
[11:48] <grummund> Hi guys
[11:48] Action: grummund guesses there may be a few space junkies aroung these parts... ;)
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> Hi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
[11:49] <Laurenceb_> one one one one
[11:50] <grummund> "Test what you fly, fly what you test."
[11:50] <grummund> vs. "Test like you fly."
[11:50] <fsphil> Test?
[11:50] <grummund> which is most accurate quote of the NASA principle?
[11:53] <NigeyS> or.. go with ed's principle "throw it down the stairs, then fly it" :D
[11:53] <fsphil> if it survives...
[11:53] <NigeyS> lol
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> grummund: Satisfy congress.
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> grummund: Pork is tasty!
[11:54] <NigeyS> SpeedEvil, !! spot on
[11:56] <grummund> hmm, i guess you guys must take testing seriously then :P
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> Testing is good.
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> grummund: What are you planning on doing?
[11:58] <grummund> apart from planning lunch?
[11:58] <grummund> just writing up a code review...
[12:08] <hibby> that's the htc dream succesfuly returned from near earth orbit, at long last.
[12:08] <hibby> well, returned to my desk anyway
[12:09] <fsphil> it hasn't switched into "kill all humans" mode has it?
[12:12] <NigeyS> woohoo dads gone to BOC and got helium sorted
[12:12] <hibby> lol, nah
[12:12] <NigeyS> .996 % pure He to
[12:12] <hibby> http://www.flickr.com/photos/designiscentral/5374735859/... check this out...
[12:13] <fsphil> 0.996 He? :)
[12:13] <NigeyS> 99.996
[12:13] <NigeyS> :P
[12:13] Action: fsphil donates his old phone to hibby .. cause he needs it
[12:14] <fsphil> I wonder what percentage the balloon gas is
[12:15] <grummund> hibby: are you breeding them?
[12:15] <hibby> not my desk - is a friend's who works in mobile development
[12:16] <hibby> would love it to be mine, though
[12:16] <hibby> looking for some sort of useful device for my intercontinental travel come summer
[12:39] <SpeedEvil> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rough-Guide-To-Being-Understood-Abroad-By-Speaking-Loudly-And-Clearly/dp/184836458X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1303130298&sr=8-3
[12:43] <Randomskk> http://www.amazon.co.uk/oh-hey-i-can-put-anything-i-want-here/dp/184836458X/
[12:52] <eroomde> ok, my irssi definitely can't wrap
[12:52] <eroomde> let me just do a test
[12:53] <eroomde> thisisareallylongwordwithoutspacessoicanseeifwrappingworkscorrectlyonmyversionofirssiwhichisuspectitdoesntasitalwaysseemstodisplaycuturlswithoutwrappingproperly
[12:53] <eroomde> it gets as far as 'corr' in 'correctly' and then stops
[12:53] <eroomde> bumsor
[12:54] <Randomskk> works for me :P
[12:54] <Randomskk> I am 0.8.14 apparently
[12:54] <eroomde> thisisareallylongwordwithoutspacessoicanseeifwrappingworkscorrectlyonmyversionofirssiwhichisuspectitdoesntasitalwaysseemstodisplaycuturlswithoutwrappingproperly
[12:54] <eroomde> haha!
[12:54] <Randomskk> what was the issue?
[12:55] <eroomde> <C-a>, <C-r>, <Enter>
[12:55] <Randomskk> silly screen
[12:55] <eroomde> enables '+wrap+
[12:55] <eroomde> yes
[12:55] <eroomde> screen being not a proper screen
[12:55] <eroomde> instead is gnuseless
[12:55] <Randomskk> I see
[12:56] <Randomskk> is it better/
[12:56] <Randomskk> s#/#?#
[12:58] <eroomde> yes
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[13:00] <eroomde> http://www.panic.com/blog/2010/03/the-panic-status-board/
[13:00] <eroomde> we need such a thing for hab
[13:00] <eroomde> showing... dunno
[13:00] <eroomde> mission stati
[13:00] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: i liberated another vid fro my hdd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzEcSO6oDcY
[13:00] <Dan-K2VOL> mornin
[13:03] <Randomskk> eroomde: definitely
[13:05] <eroomde> Randomskk: would be great for working on time critical projects too
[13:05] <eroomde> i'm not sure we'll get to do anything as awesome as Whitestar (unless we have a big rockoon push) but it'd be cool for that kind of thing
[13:05] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: did you get a python based stm32 bootloading script running?
[13:05] <Dan-K2VOL> beautiful deployment and chute ed
[13:05] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: yea, from day one, it's how I've always bootloaded them
[13:05] <Laurenceb_> nice, i might be ready to use it soon
[13:06] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: it's on all my stm32 github repos, though I didn't actually write the script
[13:06] <Laurenceb_> ok, thanks
[13:06] <eroomde> it was a fairly chaotic deployment! interesting though. we deployed from a vertical speed of basically 0 so there was no dynamic pressure to inflate the parachute for a while, hence the tumbling
[13:06] <eroomde> but fun anyhoo
[13:06] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: im finally assembling Dactyl board http://i.imgur.com/JtsgO.jpg
[13:06] <Randomskk> oh sweet
[13:06] <Randomskk> looking good so far
[13:07] <eroomde> we have since done really high speed deployments and it goes from black to fully inflated in about 8 frames at the same recording speed
[13:07] <Laurenceb_> ive got a bit further since then, just the stm32 to go now
[13:07] <Laurenceb_> and itg-3200
[13:08] <Laurenceb_> atm ive hooked up the i2c bus to a bus pirate through the external connector
[13:08] <hibby> eroomde: very pretty video
[13:08] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: but yeah the chute is lovely. There might be a small chance of getting more like that for other people to use
[13:08] <eroomde> working on it
[13:08] <eroomde> cos it's all good data to test parachute types
[13:09] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: have you used i2c with dma on the stm32?
[13:09] <Randomskk> ye-- hm
[13:09] <Randomskk> uhm, can't remember
[13:09] <Randomskk> I've used the i2c and the dma and may have used them together
[13:09] <hibby> might be one of the goals for next year's hab projects, now that the university are being more cooperative and offering us insurance...
[13:09] <Randomskk> certainly the spi and dma
[13:09] <Dan-K2VOL> laurenceb_ nice
[13:09] <Laurenceb_> im just thinking about the i2c comms, and how to speed it up
[13:09] <Dan-K2VOL> we just got an ST32 dev board to play with
[13:10] <Dan-K2VOL> and use the bus pirate/i2c bus for the speedball payloads
[13:10] <eroomde> that was a test chute, you see, as an initial step in some work we've been doing (that's also responsible for out quietness the last 18 months) but now we've finished it/ Anyway, there may be more chutes like that and getting data on them at high altitude reynold regeimes would be very interesting
[13:10] <Laurenceb_> problem is most of the comms in i2c address, reg address, i2c start, read address, read
[13:10] <Laurenceb_> hard to dma that
[13:10] <eroomde> but hab rarely needs to poll ADCs at 20KHz
[13:11] <Dan-K2VOL> oh interesting, the AVR will just sleep until the i2c perhipheral sees something addressed for the AVR
[13:11] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: true, it depends on what you're doing exactly
[13:11] <Dan-K2VOL> then wake the CPU up
[13:11] <eroomde> for our parachutes we had 5KHz per channel of 6DOF gyro and accel. It was a real pain!
[13:11] <Randomskk> if you can queue up all the instructions you can write them to ram and then let it go
[13:11] <eroomde> couldn't write to the SD fast enough
[13:11] <Dan-K2VOL> yikes eroomde
[13:11] <Laurenceb_> im tempted to do a timer interrupt at 400000/(~9.5) hz
[13:11] <hibby> eroomde: my mechanical engineering half of my degree suggests I should know what a reynold regime is... to do with laminar and turbulant flow?
[13:11] <Laurenceb_> dont laught
[13:11] <eroomde> hibby: yeah. by regeime i just mean environment
[13:12] <eroomde> so the parachutes behave differently as a function of reynolds
[13:12] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: sure i could, but i have to swap the i2c hardware from read to write mode all this feaking time
[13:12] <Laurenceb_> thats the problem as it cant be done with dma right?
[13:12] <Randomskk> uh
[13:12] <eroomde> and reynolds is to do with inertial forces vs viscous forces which are quite different at lower temps and pressures - everything is a bit more 'kinetic', like marbles bounding around
[13:12] <Randomskk> I'm.. not sure but I think it can be done
[13:12] <eroomde> less like treacle
[13:12] <Laurenceb_> hmm..
[13:13] <Laurenceb_> if so thatd be awesome
[13:13] <Laurenceb_> guess i need to delve into the datasheets
[13:13] <Dan-K2VOL> bbl all forgot my project's beta customer support mobile at home, have to go get it before the latest customers get frisky.
[13:13] <Laurenceb_> before?
[13:14] <Laurenceb_> are the customers female?
[13:14] <eroomde> what's your poroject Dan-K2VOL ?
[13:14] <Dan-K2VOL> heh before they decide it's time to try out the product this morning
[13:14] <Dan-K2VOL> universalcarremote.com
[13:14] <eroomde> hibby: i should qualify all this by saying that i'm not an aeronautical guy
[13:15] <Dan-K2VOL> I've led all the R&D for that,
[13:15] <eroomde> but i did a couple of years of fluids course in part I of my undergrad, which was really just bernouilli and death my dimensionless constants
[13:15] <Dan-K2VOL> and we're doing the final car compatibility checks by sending it out to people with the cars we need to test
[13:15] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: Nice! So a hardware startup?
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[13:16] <Dan-K2VOL> it simply emulates the signal for the original car remote
[13:16] <Dan-K2VOL> replaces your original remote
[13:16] <Dan-K2VOL> if you lost it/want another
[13:16] <eroomde> how does it get it in the first place - high speed sampling?
[13:16] <Laurenceb_> eeek
[13:17] <Laurenceb_> the stm32 reference manual
[13:17] <Dan-K2VOL> even for the 433 euro band, uses the MicRF405 software agile transmitter chip, 200-930mhz
[13:17] <Laurenceb_> page 1 or 1096....
[13:17] <Laurenceb_> *of
[13:17] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: it's so massive
[13:17] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: sexy
[13:17] <Randomskk> and there are additional datasheets for specific devices and for the ST C library
[13:17] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[13:17] <Randomskk> the downside to the stm32 over an avr: so much more complicated
[13:17] <Dan-K2VOL> btw that chip might be a great amateur data tx chip, you can do FSK, OOK and ASK
[13:18] <Laurenceb_> its even more complex than Xscale
[13:18] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: yes i was just thinking exactly that
[13:18] <eroomde> looks perfect
[13:18] <Dan-K2VOL> actually the entire remote might be a great amateur telemetry device guys, it's running a stock Atmega328, and can be re-flashed quite easily& damn i can't believe I hadn't thought of this before
[13:19] <eroomde> looks really easy to do psk31, say, which i think it'd be fun to play with
[13:19] <eroomde> just add gps
[13:19] <Dan-K2VOL> it's antenna matching network is tuned for good output on 300-320mhz AND 433 mhz
[13:19] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: fly one!
[13:19] <eroomde> Would be suyper keen to see how it goes
[13:20] <Dan-K2VOL> haha I don't know if I'm that ambitious, but I'd send prototypes to anyone who wanted to try
[13:20] <Dan-K2VOL> I am tired of working on this design :-P
[13:20] <Dan-K2VOL> been 2 years of it
[13:20] <hibby> eroomde:, interesting, cheers. Will be sure to pass the consideration on to my superiors in the space dept. We're looking at doing some proper freefall experiments which parachute deployment considerations will be key for
[13:22] <griffonbot> Received email: Dan Bowen "[UKHAS] Fwd: {LVL1} Fwd: Important - Nottingham Hackspace Needs Help!"
[13:23] <Dan-K2VOL> that's Nottingham UK there
[13:24] <Dan-K2VOL> bbl
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[13:24] <hibby> the only one that matters :p
[13:27] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: you cant switch from tx to rx i2c with dmma
[13:27] <Laurenceb_> page 745 and previous in the manual
[13:28] <Laurenceb_> you can just do a set number of i2c tx or i2c rx bytes
[13:29] <Laurenceb_> still using dma and configuring the i2c from the dma complete isr would reduce the over head of interrupts
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[13:31] <Laurenceb_> e.g. accel address, reg address, accel address, read 6 registers becomes just 3 isr calls
[13:31] <Laurenceb_> but 9 bytes transferred, so it does help
[13:31] <Randomskk> yea
[13:31] <Randomskk> also you can interrupt on dma complete
[13:31] <Randomskk> so as soon as one dma finishes your isr fires the next
[13:32] <Laurenceb_> yeah thats what im saying
[13:32] <Randomskk> oh, right
[13:32] <Laurenceb_> in fact the i2c only has one isr
[13:32] <Randomskk> of course. didn't read the word 'complete' in your previous message
[13:32] <Laurenceb_> 'i2c ready isr'
[13:32] <eroomde> lol at Dan's email
[13:32] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: im planning on using the openpilot code
[13:33] <eroomde> 'Dear Good Sir. My brother was a prince but as assassinated in Kenya. He left us a hackspace. For just £2k from you you can unlock the new space for his hackspace and make thousands of dollars. please immediately send £2k for this bank account and sort code'
[13:33] <NigeyS> bugger, gonna be late for the doctors, bbl
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[13:34] <Laurenceb_> of course, openpilot uses an RTOS, im planning on doing it with no rtos
[13:35] <Laurenceb_> through use of dma and interrupt, unfortunately itd have to involve nesting dma complete isrs inside a timer interrupt
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> Funky.
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[13:36] <Laurenceb_> its starting to get a little nasty.. but hopefully manageable
[13:37] <Laurenceb_> the kalman filter runs inside a timer interrupt and retreives all the i2c dma data from the sensors
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[13:38] <Laurenceb_> everything else is in some main loop, and things radio and gps are handled using dma
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:38] <Laurenceb_> helps that the si4432 has its own onboard packet generator and fifo
[13:40] <Laurenceb_> itd be silly not to make use of the mental inline coded ekf openpilot have put together
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> Other peoples code is always a wonderful timesaver.r
[13:41] <Laurenceb_> sometimes
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> Until you hit the bugs from using it in untested regiemes.
[13:41] <Laurenceb_> you can spend ages trying to interface with poorly commented/disorganised code
[13:41] <SpeedEvil> yep
[13:41] <hibby> 2.4ghz helical antenna array... am I silly for suggesting such a thing?
[13:41] <Laurenceb_> luckly openpilot in neither
[13:42] <Laurenceb_> atm im investigation having a seperate windspeed estimating ekf
[13:42] Action: SpeedEvil is currently being annoyed that support for powersaving on his wifi card was pulled due to a few people getting problems.
[13:42] <Laurenceb_> using pitot tube, baro and gps altitude
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> And it's now being pulled from the kernel on the latest version, not disabled.
[13:42] <Laurenceb_> oops
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> So backporting.
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> Ah - fun.
[13:42] <Laurenceb_> i want to try using Bernoulli equation to increase pitot accuracy
[13:43] <Laurenceb_> using baro sensors
[13:43] <Laurenceb_> as wind gusts have corresponding ambient pressure changes
[13:43] <Laurenceb_> and pitot tubes are a pain to get working well at low airspeeds and with cheap sensors
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[13:44] <Laurenceb_> so state vector would be absolute altitude, sea level pressure, wind heading, windspeed
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[13:46] <Laurenceb_> then use gps altitude, baro sensor, inertial velocity vector, attitude quaterion and pitot sensor as inputs to an ekf
[13:46] <Laurenceb_> assuming wind is in the horizontal plane and wind heading is slowly varying...
[13:48] <Laurenceb_> dunno how well it would work without real world data, but hopefully itd give massively increased altitude accuracy as well
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[13:58] <W0OTM> Laurenceb_: what you working on?
[13:59] <Laurenceb_> UAV autopilot
[13:59] <W0OTM> where you live?
[13:59] <Laurenceb_> UK
[13:59] <W0OTM> ahh ok
[13:59] <eroomde> less illegal here :)
[14:00] <Laurenceb_> its designed with ground control with a standard rc system in mind
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[14:01] <Laurenceb_> in fact the autopilot board can lose power and itll still be flyable
[14:01] <Laurenceb_> so 'pilot assistance board'
[14:02] <eroomde> in that nice grey area with putting gyros on helicopters :p
[14:02] <Laurenceb_> tbh ill probably be using it to collect a ton of data to test models on the ground
[14:02] <Laurenceb_> like trying the filter i was just ranting about in matlab
[14:10] <Laurenceb_> probably with this - http://www.flyingwings.co.uk/store/product_info.php?cPath=158_121&products_id=791
[14:12] <eroomde> keep kalman and carry on
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[14:14] <Laurenceb_> what do you mean?
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: neat
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: I take it you've seenthe the ps3 move hacks?
[14:17] <Laurenceb_> yeah, i dont quite understand it
[14:17] <Laurenceb_> maybe im slow
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> Well - it's a stm32
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> And not locked firmware
[14:18] <Laurenceb_> oh got you
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> And lots of sensors quite cheap
[14:18] <Laurenceb_> i meant the move + turntable
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> ah
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[14:18] <Laurenceb_> for earths rotation
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[14:19] <Dan-K2VOL> I wonder can you detect the orbit of the earth with a gryo?
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> But only if it's quite good.
[14:19] <Laurenceb_> oh hang on...
[14:20] <Dan-K2VOL> I bet the orbit of the sun in the milky way would be quite difficult
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> as the move rotates on the turntable the earths spin axis changes relative to it
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> i get the turntable hack now
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> Oh - neat
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> As it cancells the zero offsets
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> so you can filter it out, yes
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> And you can measure the orientation with the mag
[14:21] <Laurenceb_> yep
[14:21] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: i would have thought you could
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> Not seen above page - I was just meaningthe hacking aspect
[14:21] <Laurenceb_> it was on hackaday a while back - the turntable thing
[14:21] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: the solar system might count as a big gyro?
[14:22] <eroomde> might be detectable from that
[14:22] <eroomde> I did build one that told you your latitude once
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[14:23] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde I suspect it is a big gyro, but I don't think we have enough patience to collect enough data to use it
[14:23] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: really?
[14:23] <Laurenceb_> what sort
[14:23] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: yep
[14:23] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: From wikipedia: 'Another type of torque-free precession can occur when there are multiple reference frames at work. For example, the earth is subject to local torque induced precession due to the gravity of the sun and moon acting upon the earths axis, but at the same time the solar system is moving around the galactic center. Consequently, an accurate measurement of the earths axial reorientation relative to objects outside the frame of t
[14:23] <eroomde> fascinating!
[14:24] <Dan-K2VOL> indeed!
[14:24] Action: SpeedEvil has been idly wondering about really large gyros.
[14:24] <eroomde> so they actually do have to account fro that pheonomena (solar system precession) when calculating earth's tilt
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> (A few tons for energy storage)
[14:24] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: a great big spinny bit of metal with good bearings
[14:24] <Dan-K2VOL> speedevil it would be easier if we lived in a vacuum
[14:24] <eroomde> it was a lab for a dynamic course i took in 3rd year
[14:24] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: True.
[14:24] <eroomde> dynamics*
[14:25] <Dan-K2VOL> as would a lot of things
[14:25] <Dan-K2VOL> and if we lived on a frictionless plane
[14:25] <eroomde> it we would easier if we were all spheres too
[14:25] <Laurenceb_> nice
[14:25] <Dan-K2VOL> ha
[14:25] <eroomde> attached by light inextensible strings
[14:25] Action: SpeedEvil no longer approaches a sphere.
[14:26] <Laurenceb_> lol
[14:27] <hibby> gyros for payload stability on freefall?
[14:27] <Dan-K2VOL> congrats speedevil, ever read the story Flatland?
[14:27] <hibby> :)
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: yes.
[14:27] <Dan-K2VOL> hibby those would take up a lot of your weight allowance
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Ages ago.
[14:27] <Dan-K2VOL> to be effective hibby
[14:27] <hibby> Dan-K2VOL: could be an interesting dedicated experiment
[14:28] <Dan-K2VOL> definitely
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> It'd be a momentum wheel anyway
[14:28] <hibby> it's likely to be the power for the system that'd be the issue
[14:28] <Dan-K2VOL> also RCS thrusters would too
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> hibby: Not really
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> hibby: A teeny teeny battery can provide a few hundred atts for a few seconds
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> w
[14:29] <hibby> 'spose it won't be on for long. Hmm
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> for n-prize rockoon launch i was thinking of compressed air
[14:29] <Dan-K2VOL> speaking of momentum, we have had a good test of the 230N spring release concept
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> in a 2L bottle, then servo aimed nozzle
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> and a pyro release thing
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[14:30] <SamSilver> what if the flywheel was cone shaped then it could be both pappachute and staybilizer
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> 2l bottles are good to what - 150PSI?
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> yes
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> CO2 maybe a little better than air
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> it worked out lighter
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> they won't hold that many mols of gas though at that psi
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> than momentum wheels, and simpler
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> a paintball gas storage tank will go up to 3000psi
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> but its heavy
[14:30] <Dan-K2VOL> and some are light enough to go on a balloon payload
[14:31] <Laurenceb_> dont forget size is no problemn on a hab
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> But is heavier than a 2l bottle which is ~30g or so
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> 50 maybe
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[14:31] <mattltm-alt> Hi all :)
[14:31] <Laurenceb_> mass is the problem
[14:31] <Laurenceb_> you dont need a great dael of momentum to aim a rockoon properly
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> it is, but we did the math, and if you put helium in it, you will get a positive benefit from injecting helium into the balloon, and THEN dropping the bottle as ballast later
[14:32] <Dan-K2VOL> but the 2l isn't worth doing that with
[14:32] <Laurenceb_> what
[14:32] <Laurenceb_> oh i see
[14:32] <Laurenceb_> celver
[14:32] <SpeedEvil> Umm - indeed.
[14:32] <SpeedEvil> what.
[14:32] <SpeedEvil> Or are you meaning as a bouyancy control scheme
[14:32] <Dan-K2VOL> for extending the flight of zero pressure long duration balloons
[14:32] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[14:32] <SpeedEvil> Ah - yeay - that makes sense
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> Though also - hydrogen generators
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> But hydrogen generation at -40c may be questionable
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[14:33] <Dan-K2VOL> it's just barely enough benefit, the problem is that the tank mass is too much to drop all at once to be very useful ballast
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, and keeping chemicals liquid at that temp too
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> you want small granular ballast drops according to NCAR papers
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> to be most efficient
[14:37] <SamSilver> http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/SSOK.html
[14:37] <SamSilver> a floater from a 2000
[14:38] <eroomde> bigger and lower pressure would be better when mass is your constraint
[14:38] <eroomde> hmm do I actually mean that...
[14:38] <eroomde> yes
[14:38] <eroomde> cos of volume /surface area to take the hoop stress
[14:39] <Dan-K2VOL> talking about a balloon or tank eroomde?
[14:43] <eroomde> tank
[14:44] <eroomde> but the balloon is the obvious indicative edge case of that
[14:45] <eroomde> you can get an entire 80kg helium tank's contents into a 500g balloon
[14:49] <eroomde> so all I meant was that 10 soda bottles @ 100psi would probably be lighter than a single paintball tank at 3000psi, assuming i've got the number of moles approximetely equal in each case
[14:50] <Laurenceb_> but probably lighter
[14:50] <Laurenceb_> certainly easier to handle
[14:51] <eroomde> that's exactly what I meant (and said!) - that they'd be lighter
[14:51] <eroomde> for a gives number of moles
[14:51] Action: Laurenceb_ learns to read
[14:52] <Laurenceb_> but yeah i was surprised how practical it was to orientate a rockoon with a 2L bottle of compressed air
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[14:53] <eroomde> oh rockoons now?
[14:53] <Laurenceb_> heh
[14:53] <Laurenceb_> n-prize flu
[14:54] <eroomde> flu?
[14:54] <Laurenceb_> remember the n-prize flu?
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[14:56] <eroomde> no
[14:56] <Laurenceb_> symptoms include believing you can launch a rocket into space
[14:56] <eroomde> oh i see
[14:57] <eroomde> of course you can launch a rocket into space
[14:57] <eroomde> orbit might be harder
[14:57] <eroomde> space, easier
[14:57] <Laurenceb_> well yes in fact with a rockoon its actually quite easy
[14:57] Action: Laurenceb_ books himself an appointment with a doctor
[14:57] <eroomde> i'm not sure it's easy
[14:57] <eroomde> just easier
[14:57] <eroomde> add you own comparative object
[14:58] <Laurenceb_> well yeah itll fly out of control even with fins
[14:58] <Laurenceb_> needs to be spin stabilised and have the compressed air launch thing
[14:58] <Laurenceb_> not exactly easy
[15:00] <Laurenceb_> i recently redid my n-prize sim code with three stages, it was a lot more feasible
[15:01] <Laurenceb_> -~ 75% mass fraction on each stage
[15:02] <eroomde> not sure that's true
[15:02] <eroomde> but nvm
[15:03] <Laurenceb_> well using off the shelf cesaroni reloads with decent nozzles to get an isp of ~260 to 270S
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[15:07] <eroomde> you think you need spin stabilisation and gas launch?
[15:08] <Laurenceb_> yes
[15:08] <Laurenceb_> to do orbital
[15:09] <eroomde> oh right
[15:09] <eroomde> yep that's def harder
[15:09] <eroomde> i think we're just sticking with 100km for the time being
[15:10] <eroomde> really massive impulse short burn motor then 65km of coasting
[15:10] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[15:11] <Laurenceb_> with the standard off the shelf casing?
[15:11] <eroomde> spin would still help alot but can probs get away without it according to mr monte carlo
[15:11] <eroomde> oh gosh no
[15:11] <Laurenceb_> carbon fibre?
[15:11] <eroomde> custom carbon-wrapped carbon casting with a ceramic liner we've been working on
[15:11] <eroomde> built right into the fin can
[15:11] <Laurenceb_> i would have throught youd get a lot higher than 100km then
[15:11] <eroomde> you can massively up your mass fraction by doing that
[15:12] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[15:12] <eroomde> and we'll need all the mass we can to make a robust recovery system
[15:12] <Laurenceb_> but when i looked at it you could approach 100km with the off the shelf casings
[15:12] <Laurenceb_> i see
[15:12] <Laurenceb_> yeah i was looking at disposible
[15:13] <eroomde> disposable recovery?
[15:13] <Laurenceb_> heh
[15:13] <Laurenceb_> rocket
[15:13] <eroomde> oh, not recovery at all
[15:13] <Laurenceb_> why not ablative?
[15:13] <Laurenceb_> silicone rubber + fibreglass seems to be a simple liner material
[15:14] <eroomde> carbon-based ceramics are somewhat ablative
[15:14] <Laurenceb_> ah interesting
[15:14] <Laurenceb_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE0GVbTbtDU
[15:14] <Laurenceb_> ^you do need a liner XD
[15:15] <eroomde> yes indeed
[15:15] <eroomde> we've been building a 5 DOF test stand to do the rocket testing
[15:16] <Laurenceb_> neat
[15:16] <eroomde> www.cuspaceflight.co.uk/testrig.pdf
[15:17] <Laurenceb_> the hard bit with orbital is you need to reorientate the spin axis for stage two and three burn
[15:17] <eroomde> yes, tricky
[15:18] <Laurenceb_> nice, the graphics are really well presented
[15:18] <Laurenceb_> i looked at a folding arm gyro thingy or a small rcs using valve and refrigerant and propellant
[15:19] <eroomde> yeah rotating a gyro internall could be quite effective
[15:19] <eroomde> probably easier than an rcs
[15:19] <Laurenceb_> rcs looked overall easier to me
[15:19] <Laurenceb_> just one valve
[15:19] <Laurenceb_> depends on the details, gyro is more cumbersome
[15:20] <eroomde> what if you spin in the wrong direction?
[15:20] <Laurenceb_> what and despin the stage?
[15:21] <Laurenceb_> its actually more complex than i first described, its a form a control moment gyroscope
[15:21] <Laurenceb_> and needs two bearings, thats why its complex to do
[15:21] <Laurenceb_> *of
[15:22] <Laurenceb_> it may be possible to launch stages off a non spun martlet... i really havent looked at it that hard
[15:24] <Laurenceb_> but yeah rockets are hard, especially building custom casings and nozzles, but thats where you get tons of performance relative to off the shelf
[15:28] <eroomde> yeah
[15:28] <eroomde> we need the autoclave basically
[15:29] <griffonbot> @nearsys: Just tested yellow photometers, one with polaroid film. It's a bit hazy at KU, so the results may not be the best. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/60001907225268225]
[15:29] <eroomde> but i have spent the last few mins wondering about an integrated cmg to go in a rocket
[15:31] <Dan-K2VOL> which is why Space-X is amazing to have flown about 4 rocket flights in their entire history and now have the contract to supply the international space station and launch air force satellites
[15:33] <eroomde> what is why sorry?
[15:34] <Dan-K2VOL> oh I was just reading through all your rocket commentary, it's a lot of work and testing
[15:35] <Dan-K2VOL> just marveling that anyone could do it from scratch with so few test flights and become the market favorite
[15:35] <eroomde> yeah i guess
[15:35] <eroomde> though they've realised too that one has to spend money to make it
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[15:37] <eroomde> ie. they started messing around with say $20M where armadillo might have started messing around with $50k
[15:37] <eroomde> which is a very useful lesson in itself, I think
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> $100M
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Was the initial investment
[15:38] <eroomde> i'm sure they didn't start with that did they?
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> SpaceX
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[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Leon Musk got a largish slice of cash out of paypal.
[15:39] <eroomde> that might have been once nasa decided to throw them some COTS stuff, which would have helped a great deal yes, but not what they had when they had a blank sheet of paper. or am I wrong?
[15:39] <eroomde> Elon*
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:39] <zuph> hah, not just largish. A *huge* chunk of cash
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - >>$100M
[15:40] <eroomde> well anyway, it just goes to show: you have to spend money to make it, and if you wan to actually build an actual rocket to launch commercial sats then you need to be willing initially spend enough money to build a rocket than can launch sats
[15:40] <SpeedEvil> Yup.
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> Fundamentally - things go a _lot_ faster if you can actually employ a lot of skilled people to bend metal.
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> I mean - friction stir welded Al-Li tanks are clearly good stuff.
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> But they're not the way you go if you're looking to do it on the cheap.
[15:41] <eroomde> yes. having enough money to throw money at a problem which you know is solvable with enough money is really useful
[15:42] <eroomde> so your smart guys can work on the problems that smart guys are good at solving
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> Yep.
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> Rather than how to fix the roof with a couple of tarps, so they can get on with building rockets.
[15:42] <eroomde> quite useful on the blimp, where i've been used to CUSF style of working. Spening $1000 on somethat that would save me a week's work was a no brainer
[15:43] <eroomde> a bit addictive
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
[15:43] <eroomde> that's partly why we got digressed the last 18 months with this ESA stuff
[15:43] <Randomskk> if only we all had massive budgets, right? :P
[15:44] <eroomde> we can now say 'Look, we can do this for ESA, it works bitches, your sponsorship money is safe'
[15:44] <eroomde> this is not the exact wording ^
[15:45] <Dan-K2VOL> heh
[15:45] <zuph> I don't know, my grant committee loves being called bitches.
[15:45] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> They pay good money for that zuph.
[15:45] <Dan-K2VOL> I don't have the money to be called bitches yet.
[15:45] <Dan-K2VOL> but someday...
[15:46] <eroomde> but yep, we're going to need some cash to do this rockoon
[15:46] <zuph> The money they give me is enough to let me know that I *am* the bitch. They don't have to specifically enumerate it.
[15:47] <eroomde> so it's time to figure out what we're gonna do. cusf was never a club, was always meant to be a project. and this was the goal of the project. just a bit scary now that we've arrived at the point where we can do it
[15:47] <Dan-K2VOL> ha
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> :)
[15:47] <Dan-K2VOL> hey Zuph your thesis defense is in a little while isn't it?
[15:47] <eroomde> don't do a PhD
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> Wish I had time for my rocket project.
[15:47] <eroomde> you don't get holidays
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> (and cash)
[15:47] <zuph> Yep, 2:30
[15:47] <eroomde> this makes projects hard
[15:48] <Dan-K2VOL> good luck friend
[15:48] <Dan-K2VOL> got it in the bag?
[15:48] <eroomde> yeah good luck zuph !
[15:48] <eroomde> what's your title?
[15:48] <SpeedEvil> Good luck indeed zuph.
[15:48] <zuph> "A Security Hardened Field Device for SCADA Systems"
[15:48] <eroomde> what's scada?
[15:48] <zuph> Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> It's what you use to run uranium centrifugers.
[15:49] <zuph> Yep.
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Stuxnet's target.
[15:49] <eroomde> ah cool
[15:49] <Dan-K2VOL> scada: what everyone asks about when zuph describes his thesis
[15:49] <zuph> And electric grids, and water treatment systems, etc.
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> Wind farms.
[15:49] <eroomde> laser fence posts?
[15:49] <zuph> Actually, Stuxnet is the reason we got funding for this project.
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[15:49] <SpeedEvil> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/18/wind_turbine_hack/
[15:49] <fsphil> You're welcome ;-)
[15:50] <eroomde> it's like when everyone would suffext 'and helps in the fight against terrorism' in the US around 2003 at the end of their grant proposals
[15:50] <eroomde> just to get funding
[15:50] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[15:50] <eroomde> a study into silk-worm mating cycles (makes silk -> strong than steel -> body armour -> helps in the fight against terrorism)
[15:50] <zuph> Exactly, actually.
[15:51] <zuph> Thank you, money-flush minor government agencies.
[15:51] <eroomde> it's like The Wire
[15:51] <Laurenceb_> why do you need scada to run centrifuges
[15:51] <eroomde> it's da game, bra
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> I suppose there is a complex reason why 'changer the passwords to a non-obvcious one, and use a firewall' isn't sane?
[15:51] <Laurenceb_> oh not that
[15:52] <Laurenceb_> i mean you could run a centrifuge farm off ardunios ffs
[15:52] <zuph> A centrifuge farm of arduinos would count as SCADA, if they were networked to a central control location
[15:52] <SpeedEvil> The VFDs and stuff all speak SCADA as I understand it.
[15:52] <Laurenceb_> i thought scada was a specific system?
[15:52] <zuph> Nope, very generic term.
[15:53] <Laurenceb_> i see ok
[15:53] <Dan-K2VOL> soo, our balloon?
[15:54] <zuph> It's become pretty specific, to help executives understand and feel good about their systems and processes, but the straight IEEE definition is very generic.
[15:54] <eroomde> has this got anything to do with profibus?
[15:55] <zuph> "A system operating with coded signals over communications channels so as to provide control of remote equipment." The authoritative dictionary of IEEE Standard Terms.
[15:55] <Laurenceb_> when i worked at blue cicle cement the plant was run over econet with a load of model Bs
[15:55] <Laurenceb_> well.. they converted the econet to something more modern at various points
[15:55] <Laurenceb_> as you moved away from the control room
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[15:59] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL / zuph : does it still look like a launch this season is possible?
[15:59] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde, it is!
[16:00] <Dan-K2VOL> in fact UTC 21st around 0000 is a path to africa
[16:00] <eroomde> ok cool
[16:00] <Dan-K2VOL> but it goes through the NAT airline lanes :-(
[16:00] <eroomde> how 'hard' is your flight computer and data store btw?
[16:00] <Dan-K2VOL> stock Avr and sd card
[16:00] <eroomde> e.g. if it were not to make it, could it survive a few months out at sea and still survive assuming it washed up?
[16:00] <Dan-K2VOL> we're not doing anything extra
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> oh I thought you meant radiation
[16:01] <eroomde> oh sorry, no, don't care abour radiation
[16:01] <zuph> eroomde: Probably. As long as the SD card survives, we get complete forensic data.
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> no, the box would fall apart in a week or two in the ocean being battered by waves
[16:01] <eroomde> not this side of the world anyway
[16:01] <zuph> Basically, anything an SD card can survive, we can get data from.
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> and the guts would sink
[16:01] <Laurenceb_> unless you land in the sea off fukishima
[16:01] <eroomde> we had an sd survive a couple of months in salt water
[16:01] <eroomde> got the piccies off when the payload washed up
[16:02] <eroomde> flight computer didn't fare so well tho
[16:02] <Dan-K2VOL> well we'll only get pics if people get motivated here and finish the damn video camera circuits
[16:02] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3863616068/in/set-72157622038400075
[16:02] <fsphil> you're adding a camera?
[16:02] <Dan-K2VOL> I've got too much to worry about with the comm controller code to work on the antenna or cam
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[16:02] <Dan-K2VOL> it's always had a cam
[16:03] <fsphil> aah.. I missed that bit
[16:03] <Dan-K2VOL> it's just been neglected severely the whole project until the end
[16:03] <Dan-K2VOL> it was considered a secondary payload that would fly without
[16:04] <fsphil> yea, pics are nice but optional
[16:05] <natrium42> pics or it didn't happen :P
[16:06] <Dan-K2VOL> that's my view natrium42
[16:06] <natrium42> :)
[16:07] <Dan-K2VOL> as the world won't really care if there isn't a video of the london eye as we get hit by a doubledecker bus
[16:07] <Dan-K2VOL> on landing
[16:07] <Dan-K2VOL> I mean, they won't pay attention to it if there isn't video
[16:07] <eroomde> yes
[16:07] <eroomde> agreed
[16:07] <eroomde> i am a pic-happy person
[16:08] <eroomde> I did this to a powershot a couple of years ago because we made a 40km attempt and it still had to have a bloody camera or it didn't happen http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/images/stripped_down_cam.jpg
[16:08] <eroomde> even if we were fighting for every gram
[16:09] <zuph> That's about how our cameras have been looking :-p
[16:10] <fsphil> did you ever launch that? how high did it get?
[16:10] <eroomde> 210g down to 61. i couldn't figure out how to loose anymore without really getting irreperably vicious
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[16:10] <eroomde> fsphil: yes, and not very
[16:10] <eroomde> burst about 32
[16:10] <eroomde> we made a little case for it out of polystyrene
[16:13] <eroomde> i think that was around nova 9 though - quite a while ago
[16:13] <eroomde> camera got lost in one of the moves we've done since then
[16:14] <fsphil> I'd like to have a go at >35km some day, though it's almost certainly not a payload that'll be recovered.
[16:14] <Dan-K2VOL> our Jaz vid cam dies in the cold. Lovely thing for a balloon cam to do
[16:15] <Dan-K2VOL> if someone will build a power reset for it though it does recover after it gets power cycled
[16:15] <eroomde> that's a bit scary
[16:15] <eroomde> what's a jaz cam?
[16:16] <Laurenceb_> yuo dont want to know
[16:17] <zuph> Cheap, crappy camera you give to your 12 year old daughter.
[16:18] <Laurenceb_> and she says 'im 12 years old and what is this'
[16:25] <Dan-K2VOL> very crappy
[16:25] <Dan-K2VOL> i'm just a little sad that the resolution of the cam is 320x240
[16:26] <Dan-K2VOL> but it's all the group could came up with, and I have bigger fish to fry
[16:26] <SamSilver> bbl
[16:26] <eroomde> flip micro to the rescue
[16:26] <eroomde> just keep it away from your gps
[16:27] <Dan-K2VOL> well, if you could overnight mail a flip micro wired up for control with sample arduino code...
[16:27] <Dan-K2VOL> ;-)
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[16:28] <W0OTM> Hello World
[16:28] <Dan-K2VOL> the problem at white star at this point is finding anyone willing to DO anything, I think they've all basically given up hope or gotten tired of making it a priority over the rest of life
[16:29] <Laurenceb_> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13109493
[16:29] <Laurenceb_> the hell
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[16:33] <zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Just give me a few days to make the rest of life shut the hell up.
[16:34] <Dan-K2VOL> :-) I know zuph, you've been a real trooper, I've not said anything to you cause I know you've got stuff more important going on
[16:35] <hibby> Dan-K2VOL: whereabouts in the US is it you're based? KY?
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[16:35] <zuph> hibby: aye
[16:35] <zuph> Louisville
[16:35] <Dan-K2VOL> yes hibby
[16:35] <Dan-K2VOL> middle-eastern part (though called the midwest)
[16:35] <edmoore> Dan-K2VOL: Fire alarm. Talk to me about c t here
[16:35] <edmoore> This is me on iPhone btw
[16:35] <hibby> nice. I'm working in Cincinnati all summer. Might have to come and checkout your setup, lol
[16:36] <zuph> hibby: Please do! :)
[16:36] <Dan-K2VOL> heck yeah! that's only a 3 hour drive from here
[16:36] <Dan-K2VOL> what brings you here
[16:36] <hibby> GE Aviation
[16:36] <Dan-K2VOL> ohh that's a big plant up there
[16:37] <zuph> Dan-K2VOL: If it takes you more than 90-120 minutes to get to cincy, you're doing it wrong :-p
[16:38] <Dan-K2VOL> haha darn I thought I had to go through indianapolis the whole time!
[16:39] <hibby> aye, looks to be good
[16:39] <hibby> 10 week placement doing global supply chain managemnt (felt it was time for a change...)
[16:40] <zuph> Neat
[16:40] <Dan-K2VOL> cool, where are you normally hibby
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[16:40] <zuph> I'll be driving right by the place in a few weeks to pick up cheap Swedish flat-pack :-p
[16:41] <hibby> Dan-K2VOL: Glasgow, Scotland :)
[16:41] <hibby> Who was talking about gegier tubes? http://hackaday.com/2011/04/17/radiation-sensor-shield-for-the-arduino/
[16:42] <Dan-K2VOL> cool, let us know when you're here
[16:42] <Dan-K2VOL> heck you might even get to go to a white star launch if we take any longer!
[16:42] <hibby> won't be till july
[16:42] <hibby> who knows, I might even be able to contribute something useful
[16:43] <Dan-K2VOL> definitely welcome, and there's a hackerspace in Cincinnati as well that's a good place to hang out - where the sumobot competition was held
[16:43] <Dan-K2VOL> if you saw that stream
[16:44] <hibby> ah, cool.
[16:45] Action: fsphil misses robot wars
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[16:46] <MrCraig> hi all
[16:46] <fsphil> ullo
[16:48] <MrCraig> fsphil: how was the hadie-3 flight?
[16:48] <fsphil> delayed :)
[16:48] <MrCraig> ahhh
[16:48] <edmoore> fsphil: me too- I used to do robot wars!
[16:48] <edmoore> Got me into engineering
[16:48] <fsphil> lack of people availability
[16:49] <MrCraig> Well I'm afraid I couldn't volunteer to help in the end, I was roped into family stuff saturday and breaking down on the m25 sunday.
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[17:20] <fsphil> eroomde, coolies! in a regional event or the tv show?
[17:29] <NigeyS> phil
[17:29] <NigeyS> j96.95% pure the He from Boc
[17:29] <NigeyS> after about 20 million phone calls!
[17:31] <fsphil> lol
[17:31] <fsphil> 96.95%?
[17:31] <NigeyS> i think.. ang on, my hedas mashed a min
[17:31] <NigeyS> head's
[17:32] <fsphil> I had a look at the cylinders here, and it just says "He + air"
[17:33] <griffonbot> @dbsnyder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baXkvInpmA0 High Altitude Balloon Burst #arhab [http://twitter.com/dbsnyder/status/60033330552377345]
[17:34] <NigeyS> right
[17:34] <NigeyS> 99.5% purity
[17:34] <NigeyS> .05 is o2
[17:35] <fsphil> is that the balloon gas or their purer He?
[17:35] <NigeyS> balloon gas
[17:36] <NigeyS> seriously it took 6 phone calls to get that figure from them
[17:36] <fsphil> sounds about normal for a big company!
[17:37] <fsphil> that's pretty pure to be honest
[17:37] <fsphil> good to know
[17:37] <fsphil> I thought it was more like 95%
[17:38] <NigeyS> me to, all they had in their datasheet was relative density which says 0.14 (l = air)
[17:38] <NigeyS> like.. wtf is that all about :|
[17:44] <fsphil> all still go for Thursday then?
[17:45] <NigeyS> if they get my account set up and no hicups with the avr then im good to go
[17:45] <NigeyS> cant do the avr till the dip sockets get here tomorrow
[17:46] <NigeyS> i laughed at their delivery charge, £42.50
[17:46] <NigeyS> theyre only 5 minutes down the road
[17:47] <fsphil> lol
[17:47] <NigeyS> but!
[17:47] <NigeyS> they still charge £11.50 for you to pick it up! lol
[17:47] <fsphil> that's .. odd
[17:47] <NigeyS> very!
[17:48] <fsphil> By a nice fluke I practically live next door to a boc dealer
[17:48] <NigeyS> so totall cost of He .. £83 + vat
[17:48] <fsphil> that's pretty good
[17:48] <NigeyS> yeah, thats a V cylyinder
[17:49] <NigeyS> no good for a latex hab but ideal for quite a few pico launches
[17:49] <fsphil> be good for a low-ascent rate latex launch
[17:49] <fsphil> for an altitude record attempt maybe
[17:50] <fsphil> where you able to get the filler attachment from BOC?
[17:50] <NigeyS> i get to rent 1 for £11.25 lol
[17:50] <NigeyS> per month btw! woo bargain..lol
[17:51] <fsphil> You can buy them for a wee bit more :)
[17:51] <NigeyS> yup, prolly will at some point
[17:51] <NigeyS> i left my flux pen and new solder tips at mums :(
[17:51] <fsphil> oi noi!
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[17:52] <NigeyS> i know! will get dad to pop em in letter box on his way to work
[17:52] <NigeyS> hey LazyLeopard
[17:52] <LazyLeopard> hiya
[17:53] <fsphil> brb, wiring up nest box lights -- carefully as the bird is sleeping in it ...
[17:53] <NigeyS> eek dont go electricuting the dam birds now phil!
[17:53] <fsphil> mmm kfc
[17:53] <NigeyS> haha thats mean!
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[17:53] <NigeyS> mc'chicken is nicer ;)
[17:57] <NigeyS> ello BrainDamage
[17:57] <BrainDamage> hi
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[18:34] <fsphil> let there be light
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[18:35] <jonsowman> evening fsphil
[18:35] <fsphil> hiya jonsowman
[18:37] <jonsowman> how are things?
[18:38] <fsphil> all seems to be going well here today ... nothing's broke so far...
[18:38] <fsphil> you?
[18:38] <jonsowman> haha
[18:38] <jonsowman> yes all good thanks
[18:39] Action: NigeyS stands on hadie 3 .. something to fix now .. ;)
[18:40] <fsphil> nah that thing's invincible now :p
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[18:40] <NigeyS> lol wouldnt be surprised, you chucked it down the stairs yet ?
[18:40] <fsphil> not the stairs but it did slide of my desk
[18:40] <NigeyS> lol
[18:40] <NigeyS> im gonna do it with ats-1 ..
[18:41] <fsphil> indeed -- it's good advice to think like that
[18:41] <NigeyS> parachute drop test.. just without the chuite
[18:41] <NigeyS> chute*
[18:42] <fsphil> the stripboard could break like last time, but it would take a really bad impact for that to happen
[18:42] <jonsowman> hehe I remember that
[18:42] <NigeyS> yuhuh, thats stuff's pretty darn tough
[18:42] <fsphil> silly when I look back on it
[18:43] <fsphil> I had the antenna pointing out the bottom, the board lying flat above it. so the antenna nicely focused all the impact energy onto the middle of the board
[18:43] <jonsowman> still worked afterwards didn't it?
[18:44] <fsphil> all the individual parts worked perfectly, but the board needed some wor
[18:44] <fsphil> k+k
[18:44] <fsphil> -k
[18:44] <fsphil> too many ks
[18:44] <jonsowman> hehe
[18:44] <fsphil> most of hadie:2 was parts from the first one
[18:44] jcoxon (~jcoxon@cpc1-lanc4-0-0-cust720.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:44] <jonsowman> evening jcoxon
[18:44] <fsphil> g'day jc
[18:44] <NigeyS> hey J
[18:45] <NigeyS> i win .. less characters!
[18:45] <jcoxon> afteroon
[18:46] <eroomde> fsphil: re: robotwars: both
[18:46] <jcoxon> so i switch onto nights on thurs evening
[18:47] <NigeyS> ouch!
[18:47] <jcoxon> so will have to stay up all thurs night and friday morning to be ready for nights on friday
[18:47] <jcoxon> which is slightly conventient
[18:47] <fsphil> lol
[18:47] <NigeyS> intravenous coffee!
[18:47] <jcoxon> as PBH are launching
[18:48] <eroomde> pbh are on thurs evening jcoxon ?
[18:48] <jcoxon> yup
[18:49] <jcoxon> night of 21/22
[18:49] <eroomde> what are they launching?
[18:49] <jcoxon> 52000cubic ft ZP balloon
[18:49] <jcoxon> with CW on 30m and 40m
[18:49] <jcoxon> + ARPS
[18:49] <jcoxon> APRS*
[18:49] <eroomde> long-range?
[18:49] <jcoxon> for long duration + distance record breaking
[18:49] <eroomde> aiming for trans-a then
[18:50] <jcoxon> i don't think they care for that
[18:50] <eroomde> ok
[18:51] <jcoxon> though i think they'll take the prize if offered :-p
[18:51] <jcoxon> its a massive balloon
[18:52] <NigeyS> james, will you be able to run a float prediction for me for thursday 10am ?
[18:53] <jcoxon> yup
[18:53] <jcoxon> give me 10
[18:53] <NigeyS> thans :D
[18:53] <NigeyS> thanks*
[18:54] <jcoxon> what alt?
[18:54] <NigeyS> lets go with 5km and see what we get
[18:54] <jcoxon> lat /lon?
[18:55] <NigeyS> 51.606147,-3.305224
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[18:55] <SAIDMacbookPro> howdy
[18:55] <eroomde> hi SAIDMacbookPro
[18:55] <NigeyS> hey SAID
[18:55] <eroomde> hey what kind of computer are you using?
[18:55] <SAIDMacbookPro> its me
[18:55] <NigeyS> lol Ed
[18:56] <NigeyS> ahh its w0otm ?
[18:56] <SAIDMacbookPro> yeah
[18:56] <NigeyS> hey dude
[18:56] <SAIDMacbookPro> just got OSX installed on my Compaq laptop
[18:56] <SAIDMacbookPro> :)
[18:56] <eroomde> ah nice!
[18:56] <NigeyS> schweet!
[18:56] <SAIDMacbookPro> it was a new Compaq, and I never used it...now that I have OSX on it, I might use it
[18:57] <NigeyS> i quite like OSX, just not a huge fan of Apple hardware
[18:57] <eroomde> it seems to think it's a Macbook Pro
[18:57] <eroomde> NigeyS: I'm the opposite
[18:57] <eroomde> i've got burned enough times now by OSX doing weird and illogical things
[18:58] <fsphil> I used to like Macs, but kinda went off them recently
[18:58] Action: jcoxon loves osx
[18:58] <eroomde> by which I mean where it isn't linux
[18:58] <NigeyS> yikes
[18:58] <jcoxon> but doesn't like iOS
[18:58] <eroomde> linux just behaves a lot better
[18:58] <jcoxon> eek
[18:58] <fsphil> NigeyS, that transmitter carries all the digital channels for the area :p
[18:58] <jcoxon> linux never behabes
[18:58] <jcoxon> behaves*
[18:59] <eroomde> also i am writing kernal module drivers at the mo, and that re-inforces that knowing linux is just useful and powerful
[18:59] <eroomde> you can't put osx on your robot
[18:59] <NigeyS> fsphil, oh thats nice to know if i get my payload stuck to it ! lol
[18:59] <eroomde> it does behave!
[18:59] <fsphil> meh, tv's overrated anyway ;-)
[18:59] <NigeyS> lol
[19:00] <NigeyS> if DTv goes down in mid wales sometime thursday guys its only picochu-1 taking a nap up the tower
[19:01] <jcoxon> i'll run my script on thurs night to rip the pbh track and plot it on spacenear.us
[19:01] <jcoxon> as it looks prettier then their interface
[19:01] <jonsowman> :)
[19:02] <eroomde> yes
[19:02] <eroomde> there's lots of re-inventing the wheel porrly
[19:02] <fsphil> massively
[19:02] <NigeyS> not exactly big on web design are they
[19:02] <fsphil> the burst calculator on the predictor seems to give funky values after a couple of goes
[19:03] <jonsowman> oh dear
[19:03] <NigeyS> it wasnt me!
[19:03] <jonsowman> fsphil: what happens?
[19:04] <fsphil> screenshot, one sec
[19:04] <jonsowman> ta
[19:04] <fsphil> http://i.imgur.com/P3Lif.png
[19:04] <fsphil> works the first time, after that gives weird answers
[19:05] <fsphil> like something's not being cleared
[19:05] <jonsowman> hmmm
[19:05] <jonsowman> ok i'll have a poke in a bit, eating at the mo
[19:05] <fsphil> nice
[19:06] <NigeyS> thats how it looks on my mobile
[19:07] <NigeyS> not funky values, but anytime i run it, the overlay stays over the map thingy
[19:07] <jonsowman> NigeyS: mobile compatibility is on the todo list
[19:08] <jonsowman> when I get time, which probably won't be till the summer
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[19:09] <NigeyS> ah that'd be really good :D
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[19:11] Nick change: GW8RAK_ -> GW8RAK
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[19:19] <SAIDMacbookPro_> yeah!
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[19:20] <jcoxon> NigeyS, can't get predictions further than thurs 00:00 launch
[19:20] <jcoxon> http://spacenear.us/float-prediction/
[19:21] <jcoxon> follow the red spots
[19:21] <NigeyS> ohh
[19:21] <jcoxon> all the other spots are old data - ignore
[19:21] <jonsowman> fsphil: I can't replicate the problem at all in chrome
[19:21] <jcoxon> tomorrow would be an awesome day to launch
[19:22] <jcoxon> it would go about 100km in 24hrs
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[19:22] <NigeyS> oo that looks sweet! .. can't do tomoz :( dammit
[19:22] <jcoxon> okay well looking at the paths its going to go north
[19:22] <jcoxon> which is a very strange trajectory
[19:23] <jcoxon> but will be in range of a number of stations
[19:23] <jcoxon> i'll try and get a bit better prediction
[19:23] <NigeyS> kind of similar to the standard predictor, had it going north then swinging west
[19:24] <jcoxon> i'll sort it to move float alts in a bit
[19:24] <jcoxon> need to get more data
[19:24] <NigeyS> okies, thanks James
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[19:30] <Laurenceb> eroomde: have you seen any work on minefield clearance using blimps with thermal cameras?
[19:30] <Laurenceb> sure i saw something along those lines a couple of years ago, lost the bookmark sorry
[19:34] <NigeyS> mines give of heat?
[19:34] <NigeyS> off*
[19:34] <Elwell> alot, over a v short time interval once triggered
[19:34] <NigeyS> haha i mean before they explode..lol!
[19:34] Action: Elwell gets coat
[19:35] <NigeyS> lol aww
[19:35] <Elwell> I'd have thought they'd be lost in background of whatever they were buried in.
[19:35] <Laurenceb> it requires bear earth
[19:36] <Elwell> you may see a change in heating/cooling profile over day compared with say stones
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[19:36] <Laurenceb> then the sun heats the earth and you do thermal tomography
[19:36] <Laurenceb> by comparing images over the course of the day
[19:36] <Elwell> yeah thats what I meant
[19:36] <NigeyS> that's neat!
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[19:38] Action: Laurenceb gets annoyed by wolfram alpha
[19:38] <Laurenceb> how do you enter partial diff equations?
[19:38] <Laurenceb> 2*d^2(T(z,t,r))/(dz*dr) <-it doesnt like that
[19:39] <NigeyS> http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/howto/SolveAPartialDifferentialEquation.html
[19:39] <Laurenceb> doh
[19:39] <NigeyS> dunno if thats any help at all
[19:40] <Laurenceb> yeah thats how :P
[19:40] <NigeyS> :D
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[19:42] <Laurenceb> tho i need d^2
[19:43] <NigeyS> sorry i can only give you C^2 :p
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[20:30] <fsphil> nice float predictions
[20:30] <fsphil> jonsowman, will try in chromium
[20:30] <jonsowman> ta fsphil
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[20:31] <W0OTM> ok need some help
[20:31] Lunar_Lander (~lunar_lan@p54A06F5B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:32] <W0OTM> I have a "roll-up dipole" for 2M (made out of 300ohm twin lead)
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:32] <W0OTM> Does it really matter what orientation I fly the antenna
[20:32] <W0OTM> vertically vs inverted
[20:32] <W0OTM> is it really going to make a difference in the radiation pattern
[20:33] <W0OTM> aimed toward the ground or toward the sky
[20:34] <fsphil> jonsowman, nor me. just firefox so far
[20:34] <W0OTM> do j-pole antenna generally have a 360degree pattern?
[20:34] <jonsowman> hum
[20:34] <jonsowman> that's interesting
[20:34] <jonsowman> fsphil: ff4?
[20:35] <fsphil> W0OTM, I'd say a horizontal dipole would be pretty unpredictable on a swinging payload
[20:35] <fsphil> jonsowman, yes - but also seen on ff3
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[20:35] <fsphil> I'll see what steps are needed to cause it
[20:35] <jonsowman> right
[20:36] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM as far as I know
[20:36] <jonsowman> thanks fsphil, I've got got ff installed here
[20:36] <jonsowman> *not got
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> http://winzenflyer.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/basic-balloon-systems/
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[20:37] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: so I shouldn really have any issues with having the antenna aim up or down?
[20:37] <zuph> Thesis advisor was right; Masters Defense is softball.
[20:38] <fsphil> Lunar_Lander, letter arrived this-morning. looks good!
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> thanks!
[20:38] <zuph> W0OTM: Not as far as I have read.
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> and you're welcome fsphil :)
[20:39] <W0OTM> zuph: ok, thx
[20:40] <zuph> W0OTM: We did some testing with our sat modem j-pole, and didn't notice a significant difference.
[20:40] <zuph> W0OTM: That said, we're in a noisy urban environment, and we don't have the equipment to properly test anything.
[20:41] <zuph> W0OTM: For all we know, our J-pole might have compared favorably to a coat hanger with tin foil.
[20:41] <fsphil> typically I can't reproduce it in ff4 now either
[20:41] <W0OTM> zuph: ok, well I have 2 VHF j-poles im flying next flight, one will be vertial up and one will be aimed downward
[20:42] <jonsowman> fsphil: haha
[20:42] <W0OTM> zuph: I guess I will be able to do side by side comparisons
[20:42] <zuph> W0OTM: Make sure they're far enough apart not to interfere with eachother.
[20:43] <W0OTM> zuph: 40ft
[20:43] <W0OTM> z
[20:43] <zuph> hah, sounds good :-p
[20:44] <W0OTM> zuph: 40ft of vertical seperation - 350ma
[20:45] <zuph> Honestly, I'm a terrible ham. RF is complete mystery magic to me.
[20:46] <Lunar_Lander> http://winzenflyer.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/basic-balloon-systems/
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[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> NigelMoby here`?
[20:50] <NigelMoby> Almost, give me 5 mins. :)
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:58] <jcoxon> ping NigelMoby
[20:59] <eroomde> this looks like fun: http://newscenter.ti.com/Blogs/newsroom/archive/2011/04/13/texas-instruments-makes-designing-with-tms320c5000-dsps-easier-with-new-credit-card-sized-development-tools.aspx
[20:59] <eroomde> $89 for board and full dev environment is pretty good!
[21:00] <eroomde> could make the basis of a really high performance uplink
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[21:02] <zuph> eroomde: Quit it. I'm already sold on figuring out this damn ARM. Don't give me a DSP to play with too.
[21:03] <jcoxon> NigelMoby, basically it'll be a crazy notherly flight path
[21:03] <eroomde> zuph: yep tell me about it
[21:03] <jcoxon> in 24hrs nearly reaching the faroe islands
[21:03] <eroomde> dsps are pretty sexy though
[21:03] <eroomde> small bit of c, run fast and parallel
[21:03] <eroomde> 600 million MACS!
[21:04] <eroomde> stick that up your arm pipe and smoke it
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> hi NigelMoby
[21:04] <zuph> eroomde: Yeah. They make me feel pretty stupid, though. Last time I messed with one was detecting DTMF tones in high school :-p
[21:04] <eroomde> 8870 chips for that
[21:04] <eroomde> or whatever they are
[21:05] <zuph> Well that wasn't the point of the arbitrary assignment, was it?
[21:06] <eroomde> lateral thinking
[21:06] <zuph> It was a 1 hour whiffle ball course in "Engineering." Closest anything my school got to actual comp. sci or ECE.
[21:07] <zuph> Used some weird TI dev board with a bunch of audio inputs and outputs, and some LEDs.
[21:07] <zuph> And some IDE that was like LabView for 8 year olds.
[21:07] <eroomde> I think that's what this is, as far as I can tell
[21:07] <zuph> Yeah, but this one has teeth.
[21:08] <eroomde> true
[21:08] <eroomde> their ide though looks like a crap eclipse
[21:08] <zuph> :(
[21:08] <eroomde> they seem to want to ordinarily charge you thousands of dollars for the priviledge
[21:08] <eroomde> eclipse is growing on me
[21:08] <eroomde> for a died in the wool vim person
[21:09] <eroomde> i'm having to be a bit promiscuous atm
[21:09] <zuph> Any decent C/C++ plugins?
[21:09] <eroomde> grudgingly I admit that eclipse is the thing to use for lisp/scheme work
[21:09] <zuph> I haven't looked at eclipse in years.
[21:09] <eroomde> yes, it's got decent c/c++ plugins now
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> NigelMoby http://winzenflyer.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/basic-balloon-systems/
[21:09] <eroomde> it's called CDT
[21:10] <eroomde> (c development tools)
[21:10] <eroomde> and git and mercurial plugins too!
[21:10] <zuph> Might have to look at it. I'm using Code::Blocks right now, and don't really like it.
[21:10] <eroomde> everything the body needs
[21:10] <eroomde> i used code::blocks at a job once
[21:10] <zuph> Oooh, excellent.
[21:10] <zuph> (Re: git)
[21:10] <eroomde> seems not bad if you want something quick and light
[21:10] <eroomde> but not idea;
[21:10] <eroomde> l
[21:11] <eroomde> anything which hides you from direct contact with gdb has got to be worth it
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[21:12] <zuph> Yeah. Still haven't gotten gdb/code::blocks to behave with avr
[21:12] <eroomde> not surprised!
[21:13] <eroomde> there is a very good guide though on developing and debugging with eclipse and gcc-avr
[21:13] <eroomde> it has a good plugin
[21:14] <zuph> I will have to look into that.
[21:14] <zuph> I have a feeling that I'll have to maintain an install of eclipse if I intend to do any serious ARM development, anyway.
[21:14] <eroomde> yeah
[21:15] <eroomde> or shell out for something like rowley
[21:15] <eroomde> which is actually a good option
[21:15] <zuph> I also have a feeling that I'll need a nicer laptop soon too.
[21:15] <mattltm> Hi all :)
[21:15] <eroomde> we use rowley for all our arm stuff - it's excellent
[21:16] <zuph> I'm a sucker for the free stuff. Mostly I'm a sucker for not paying anything. They have anything free for students, while I can still ethically claim to be one?
[21:18] <eroomde> I blagged four licenses fo frizzle
[21:18] <eroomde> ymmv
[21:18] <eroomde> and 4 JTAGS
[21:20] <eroomde> but actually openjtag and eclipse have come on a lot in the last four years
[21:20] <zuph> So I've been reading.
[21:20] <eroomde> when i looked in 2006 trying to get a working complete tollchain took about 2 weeks and required you to be a kernel hacker and compiler expert
[21:21] <zuph> Yucck :(
[21:21] <zuph> I've got all the parts laying around to build an FT2232 based JTAG debugger. Just need to route and etch a board.
[21:21] <eroomde> we have code sourcery, forex, now
[21:21] <eroomde> bit of an effort though?
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[21:22] <eroomde> maybe i'm just getting old but i'm increasingly tending to just want to pay for a solution so i can get on with trying out an idea. that said sometimes i want to DIY for absolutely no good reason
[21:22] <eroomde> it comes and goes
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[21:23] <zuph> Heh, if it weren't a pretty simple board, I'd just buy the thing from Olimex.
[21:23] <eroomde> Olimex :)
[21:23] <eroomde> used to get them to make our PCBs
[21:23] <eroomde> Badger 1, my first ever professionally fabbed board, was from them
[21:24] <eroomde> i remeber the drill holes and the traces were like 0.5mm misaligned
[21:24] <zuph> They seem like the best deal going for PCBs in europe.
[21:24] <eroomde> which looked fugly as anything
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[21:24] <zuph> Heh, I just got some PCBs from Seeed that are almost as bad
[21:24] <eroomde> sure in europe, but gold phoenix is cheap wherever you are :)
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[21:24] <zuph> Yeah, <3 gold phoenix
[21:24] <eroomde> me too
[21:24] <Laurenceb> i used seeedstudio for my last board
[21:24] <Laurenceb> cant complain
[21:24] <zuph> All of white star's boards are from them.
[21:24] <eroomde> what a wonderful thing they are
[21:25] <eroomde> just very fuss free
[21:25] <Laurenceb> well silkscreen is a bit iffy but who cares
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[21:25] <eroomde> and you can get pretty colours
[21:25] <zuph> I like Seeed for low quantity, small stuff. But gold phoenix is great for the next level up.
[21:25] <eroomde> red pcbs fly better
[21:25] <Laurenceb> lol
[21:25] <LoJaume> hello from Catalonia
[21:25] <Laurenceb> wherezat?
[21:26] <zuph> I wish they didn't charge that damned panelization fee, though.
[21:26] <eroomde> what was the turnaround on seedstudio laurenceb?
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[21:26] <Laurenceb> 2 weeks iirc
[21:26] <eroomde> not bad
[21:26] <eroomde> hello LoJaume !
[21:26] <Lunar_Lander> hello LoJaume
[21:26] <jonsowman> waiting for some seeed boards at the moment
[21:26] <Laurenceb> LoJaume: you live in the land of cats?
[21:26] <zuph> eroomde: For US, 5 days turn around, plus 2-4 shipping.
[21:26] <eroomde> whatcha making jonsowman >
[21:26] <eroomde> ?
[21:26] <zuph> 2-4 weeks shipping
[21:26] <LoJaume> jeje, no, Catalonia is in Spain
[21:27] <Laurenceb> jonsowman: awesome
[21:27] <eroomde> but not strictly part of spain, depending on who you talk to?>
[21:27] <LoJaume> yes, eroomde
[21:27] <jonsowman> :)
[21:27] Action: Laurenceb is trying to solve http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=+p%28z%29*T%28z%2ct%2cr%29%2bC*D[T%28z%2ct%2cr%29%2ct]%3dc%28z%29%28d^2%28T%28z%2ct%2cr%29%29%2fdz^2%2b2*D[D[T%28z%2ct%2cr%29%2cz]%2cr]%2bd^2%28T%28z%2ct%2cr%29%29%2fdr^2%2b%281%2fr%29*d%28T%28z%2ct%2cr%29%29%2fdr%29&incParTime=true
[21:28] <LoJaume> I'm learning how to track a balloon
[21:28] <Laurenceb> maybe i should give up and go to bed
[21:28] <zuph> jonsowman: I just got a very similar board back from Seed. ENC28J60, AVR and some GPIO coming out for a PIR sensor.
[21:29] <Laurenceb> - thermal diffusion through a vertically stratified material - theres boundary conditions as well :-/
[21:29] <Laurenceb> this was a bad idea...
[21:29] <jonsowman> zuph: sounds good, the enc28j60 seems like a great little controller
[21:30] <zuph> Yeah. I tried to breadboard it, and let the smoke out of a couple, said "screw it" and ordered up a board :-p
[21:30] <jonsowman> I didn't even try breadboarding this
[21:30] <jonsowman> the hardware is (touch wood) relatively simple, just SPI to the AVR and a magjack
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[21:31] <zuph> Yeah, that's what I thought too. I probably screwed up one of the bajillion voltage sources into the enc.
[21:31] <jonsowman> hah yes there are /many/
[21:32] <eroomde> those chips look great
[21:32] <jonsowman> eroomde: they do. it was either that or the wiznet w5100 or similar
[21:32] <zuph> Going to just do UDP, or try for a tiny TCP implementation?
[21:33] <jonsowman> zuph, looking at the AVR port of uIP
[21:33] <jonsowman> http://code.google.com/p/avr-uip/
[21:33] <jonsowman> it handily also has a driver for the enc28j60
[21:34] <zuph> jonsowman: Last time I looked at it (admittedly, about a year ago), it seemed pretty convoluted.
[21:34] <zuph> I like uIP, though. Using some code from that on my M. Eng project.
[21:34] <jonsowman> I'm expecting it to be a bit of work, yeah
[21:34] <jonsowman> ultimate goal is HTTP POST to a server
[21:34] <zuph> ah
[21:34] <LoJaume> ehmmm, where I can read info about uploading positions in http://spacenear.us/tracker?
[21:35] <jonsowman> zuph: there are DNS reolver and DHCP examples too, might give that a go :)
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> LoJaume did you read this already? http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[21:37] <jonsowman> *resolver
[21:37] <zuph> jonsowman: Neat, I'll have to follow that :-) Mine doesn't *need* anything that complicated, though.
[21:37] <LoJaume> Lunar_Lander, thanks for info. I hadn't read.
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> you are welcome!
[21:38] <jonsowman> zuph: I'm hoping that avr-uip helps quite a bit
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[21:39] <jonsowman> I think the enc28j60 driver should... had a read through the sauce
[21:39] <eroomde> there's a lot of code in the avr-iup source - wouldn't fancy trying to code that lot up from scratch I must say
[21:39] <jonsowman> eroomde: no definitely not
[21:40] <jonsowman> the enc28j60 is fairly complex as well.. it can do clever things like pre-filtering incoming packets
[21:41] <eroomde> run your own packet sniffing?
[21:42] <jonsowman> indeed
[21:42] <eroomde> was looking at the 28j60 back when i follishly thought i had time to do the test stand data logger board
[21:42] <eroomde> about 1wk before leaving cam
[21:42] <jonsowman> heh
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> NigelMoby
[21:42] <fsphil> I think I just missed a fireball
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> jonsowman news: http://winzenflyer.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/basic-balloon-systems/
[21:42] <eroomde> fsphil: huh?
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> meteroite?
[21:42] <eroomde> a meteor?
[21:42] <fsphil> yea
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[21:43] <fsphil> saw the blinds light up and then flicker
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> oh shit
[21:43] <fsphil> no cars about
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> this must has been a big one then
[21:43] <jonsowman> Lunar_Lander: cool :)
[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> thanks :)
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[21:47] <LoJaume> ok, the dl-fldigi software uploads positions to server. What about balloon side? Any link to read info?
[21:48] <fsphil> (re: meteor -- probably false alarm, my motion camera didn't record anything - it points at the ground but it usually picks up lightning)
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:49] <fsphil> I so need an all-sky camera :)
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> LoJaume you mean that how the balloon does produce signals for the dl-fldigi to read?
[21:51] <LoJaume> yes.
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> jonsowman can you help maybe?
[21:51] <Elwell> ah bugger - meant to try and get the ISS on radio tonight
[21:51] <Elwell> just noticed pass is over :-(
[21:51] <fsphil> ack
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> LoJaume sorry I don't have that info at hand, I hope someone else in here has
[21:53] <LoJaume> ok, ok, zenx anyway
[21:53] <jonsowman> it is explained to some extent on the tracking guide on the ukhas wiki
[21:53] <LoJaume> yes jon, i'm already reading it.
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[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[00:00] --- Tue Apr 19 2011