highaltitude.log.20110415

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[01:56] <SpeedEvil> http://www.spacenews.com/launch/110414-air-force-nasa-and-nro-ink-agreement-launching-with-spacex.html
[01:56] <SpeedEvil> :)
[01:57] <stilldavid> ah, one of my friends is in CO Springs attending that conf
[01:57] <stilldavid> I'm super jealous
[01:57] <Dan-K2VOL> hey stilldavid
[01:58] <stilldavid> hi Dan-K2VOL
[01:58] <stilldavid> How's things? I've been seeing breakaway stuff on the list recently... what's that all about?
[01:58] <Dan-K2VOL> working on a pretty elegant breakaway here now
[01:58] <stilldavid> just for connecting payloads?
[01:58] <Dan-K2VOL> to the balloon
[01:59] <stilldavid> ah, I see. someone doesn't trust the cord to break?
[01:59] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, after the math this afternoon with a little refresher on the old force = mass X acceleration
[02:01] <Dan-K2VOL> well, with the high profile nature of our flight, it doesn't matter who trusts it, we must demonstrate that it is repeatable
[02:02] <Dan-K2VOL> and doing the math provided a very clear picture of what must be applied for the test-
[02:02] <stilldavid> have you decided which mechanism is the most reliably repeatable?
[02:02] <Dan-K2VOL> I think we have
[02:02] Action: stilldavid hopes it's not velcro
[02:02] <Dan-K2VOL> no, it is not
[02:02] <Dan-K2VOL> here I'll post it to twitter, just a sec
[02:03] <Dan-K2VOL> it's compression spring
[02:03] <Dan-K2VOL> calibrated to tip off a ledge in a pipe at precisely 229N
[02:04] <stilldavid> oh, awesome. will like to see a pic. I read about it in (someone's...) email and couldn't really visualize it
[02:06] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: Latest breakaway linkage plan- calibrated compression spring that tips out of a pipe shroud courtesy Dan & Jeff #arhab http://t.co/Em1Ok7z [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/58712667057168384]
[02:06] <stilldavid> nice
[02:26] <W0OTM> howdy
[02:31] <Dan-K2VOL> hola
[02:33] <W0OTM> hola hola
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[02:43] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM may want to add a wind shield on the cutdown
[02:43] <Dan-K2VOL> looks good though
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[06:29] <jcoxon> morning
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[06:48] <fsphil> ah nuts: http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=adec7c43e5f441dc05ee9fcb6fb948595fa4bee9
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[06:49] <jcoxon> oh
[06:49] <jcoxon> fsphil, not too good
[06:49] <fsphil> I could overfill a bit
[06:49] <jcoxon> saturday not an option?
[06:50] <fsphil> I'll have to check again with the people doing the driving
[06:51] <jcoxon> whats the prediction like?
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[06:55] <fsphil> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=a6c6daa0543e194939de11c7281acb942a762322
[06:55] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[06:55] <fsphil> not /just/ as bad as before
[06:56] <jcoxon> safer flight path
[06:56] <fsphil> much
[06:56] <fsphil> I'd be happy to launch it, but I'll see what they say
[06:56] <jcoxon> fsphil, if you were to launch what time roughly?
[06:56] <fsphil> I'm aiming for11:00 BST
[06:59] <jcoxon> okeydokey
[07:00] <fsphil> this is tricky .. the notam lasts a month but this could be the best weekend of the lot :)
[07:00] <jcoxon> my thoughts are that if transport are up for it then go saturday
[07:00] <jcoxon> nice safe flight path, rural landing site
[07:00] <fsphil> I agree
[07:00] <jcoxon> permission to enter Ire airspace
[07:01] <fsphil> hell I could try driving myself but I've not driven that far yet, and I wouldn't be able to track
[07:02] <fsphil> right, work time
[07:17] <Upu> Saturday fsphil ?
[07:18] <Upu> My colinear turned up today, not sure I'll get it up before you launch
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[07:53] <fsphil> Upu, still up in the air -- if you pardon the pun
[07:53] <jonsowman> morning all
[07:53] <fsphil> I'd like Saturday, the other guys like Sunday. But Sunday may have a watery end depending on which way the predictions go :)
[07:54] <fsphil> morning jonsowman
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[08:35] <eroomde> morning all
[08:35] <fsphil> mornin ed
[08:39] <eroomde> all well?
[08:39] <Shuffty> morening
[08:39] <Shuffty> :-)
[08:40] <Shuffty> *morning
[08:40] <fsphil> all well in the land of me :) you?
[08:41] <eroomde> yes not bad thanks. some fun technical projects and some fun baking projects
[08:41] <eroomde> bread is a wonder stuff
[08:44] <fsphil> gotta love it
[08:45] <eroomde> we should eat more of it
[08:45] <eroomde> off to france next week too so I think I'll have plenty of opportunity
[08:46] <jonsowman> lucky
[08:47] <eroomde> I had a revelation this morning in my quest to find somewhere consistantly cool and not too dry for bread to ferment more slowly (which has miraculous effects on flavour and keeping qualities). A cellar!
[08:47] <eroomde> Plus you get lots of natural yeasts in the air from the wines being sotred there too, and good natural humidity
[08:50] <eroomde> bread making it just the right kind of optimisation problem - you have sufficiently few dimensions (say 6: temperature, handling/shaping, amount of water, flour, salt, yeast) for it to be analytically solvable
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[08:56] <NigelMoby> Moooorning
[08:57] <fsphil> Not at all.. mornings are a myth
[08:58] <NigelMoby> Lol hey Phil
[09:01] <NigelMoby> The shagi is complete!
[09:01] <fsphil> muhaha!
[09:01] <fsphil> and you're still sane?
[09:02] <NigelMoby> Well.... that's debateable lol
[09:03] <NigelMoby> How do you attach ures to the radio?
[09:13] <fsphil> crimped on an sma plug
[09:16] <fsphil> I've an sma socket on the board
[09:18] <NigelMoby> Eeek crimping sma is no fun
[09:30] <fsphil> wasn't too bad actually
[09:30] <fsphil> no worse than bnc
[09:34] <eroomde> shagi?
[09:34] <fsphil> it's a 1/4 vertical made from only coax :)
[09:35] <eroomde> i... see
[09:36] <fsphil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/fsphil/5431825038/
[09:36] <fsphil> should survive being thrown down the stairs
[09:38] <fsphil> it'll have a straw over the end to keep it straight during the flight
[09:41] <GW8RAK> Morning fsphil. Are you still launching on Sunday?
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[09:55] <fsphil> GW8RAK, hi hi -- hope so. that's still the plan. I'll know for certain today
[09:59] <GW8RAK> Okay, typically, I was away last week and am cycling on Sunday :(
[09:59] <GW8RAK> But did manage to hear and decode some of last Saturdays launch.
[10:01] <fsphil> yea it was a busy weekend!
[10:01] <GW8RAK> Could listen to the early morning one, but then was away.
[10:01] <fsphil> the apex-ii launch? did you try decoding the 300 baud lines?
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[10:13] <griffonbot> Received email: Solar Balloonman "[UKHAS] Re: Request."
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[10:50] <GW8RAK> fsphil, sorry, got called away. I could hear the 300 baud transmissions, but no decode. The 50 baud was perfect. Did anyone get the 300 baud?
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[10:57] <fsphil> Other than them themselves, I'm not sure
[10:57] <fsphil> I didn't get anything but garbled numbers -- heck I struggled to get the 50 baud one :)
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[11:00] <GW8RAK> I had trouble finding the signal initially, but the 50 came through first time. However, it was interesting that I normally lose signals from EARS between 18 and 21km, but on this occasion, it was okay from 16km all the way up.
[11:01] <jonsowman> you were quite a long way away fsphil
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[11:03] <fsphil> I noticed with the artemise (sp?) flight I saw some very faint lines on the waterfall well below the horizon
[11:03] <Laurenceb_> yeah the dactyl board pitot sensor is working
[11:04] <Laurenceb_> i dont have the itg-3200 yet and i want to populate the mems sensors at one go, so just those to go now XD
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[11:11] <Laurenceb_> its an ltc2481
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[11:14] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: pics?
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[11:16] <Laurenceb_> dont have iphone here atm
[11:16] <Laurenceb_> its very good for macro shots
[11:17] <Laurenceb_> atm ive rigged a bus pirate up to the i2c breakout connector so i can do address scans
[11:17] <Laurenceb_> jst connectors are a pita to disconnect
[11:18] <Laurenceb_> the ltc2481 is pretty sweet
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[11:53] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:53] <Laurenceb_> i think my solder paste is too liquid
[11:54] <Laurenceb_> when i reflow the lsm303dlh and itg3200 i might leave it in the stencil for a few hours to dry more
[11:56] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: is it fridge-cold when you apply it?
[11:56] <Laurenceb_> no, room temperature
[11:56] <eroomde> should really be stored in the fridge (do not confuse for something edible) and be used cold - it's a ot less viscous
[11:57] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/JtsgO.jpg <- you can see on some of the components here its rather in consistent - due it it flowing too much after the stencil was removed
[11:58] <Laurenceb_> less visous? my problem is its not viscous enough
[11:58] <Laurenceb_> duesnt hold the shape of the pads
[11:58] <eroomde> you just said it was loo liquid!
[11:58] <eroomde> gosh, you like your components dense
[11:59] <eroomde> looks very nice anyway - is it the autopilot?
[11:59] <Laurenceb_> yes
[11:59] <Laurenceb_> thanx :P
[12:00] <Laurenceb_> ive populated everything bar the lsm303dlh and itg3200 now - imu parts
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> I think I'd have gone for amore spread-out board onthe first cut. :)
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> Working well though?
[12:01] <Laurenceb_> but they are rather pricey so i want to be 100% sure it works
[12:01] <eroomde> lol me too
[12:01] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: is a braver man than I
[12:01] <Laurenceb_> heh the RF was a nightmare to place
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> What have you tested?
[12:02] <Laurenceb_> all power supplies, the pipot tube (other side), and the si4432 partially
[12:02] <Laurenceb_> *pitot
[12:02] <SpeedEvil> :)
[12:02] <Laurenceb_> si4432 appears to be booting the idle mode from the voltages on the pins and current draw
[12:03] <Laurenceb_> i havent tried transmitting yet but in the time itd take me to write a config script i may as well code it for the stm32
[12:03] <Laurenceb_> - config script for my logic analyser
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> what's the cd4604?
[12:04] <Laurenceb_> logic level translator for the servos
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> ah
[12:04] <Laurenceb_> 5v vrs 3.3v
[12:04] Action: SpeedEvil ponders a hack.
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> Pull-ups to 5V, and the stm32
[12:04] <SpeedEvil> But isolation is good
[12:05] <Laurenceb_> yeah there were a few hacks, but servos are nasty things
[12:05] <Laurenceb_> i wanted to play it safe and avoid frying the stm32
[12:06] <Laurenceb_> so basically theres 4x pwm input and 4x output
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> :)
[12:07] <Laurenceb_> input - 3K - Schottky diode to 3v3 - pwm capture pin - 30K - pwm out pin - cd4604 - servo out
[12:07] <Laurenceb_> so you can do load of clever things, e.g. fly by wire
[12:08] <Laurenceb_> or fly from the ground and record the control inputs tother with the imu data to sd card
[12:09] <Laurenceb_> or monitor for a sequence of wiggles from the ground then allow the pwm from the ground to pass through by tristating the pwm out pins
[12:10] <Laurenceb_> theres lots of options :P
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> I assume theseare goung to be first flown in a very strurdy padded box. :)
[12:11] <Laurenceb_> its first going to be 'flown' on my desk :P
[12:11] <Laurenceb_> or in my hand rather
[12:12] <Laurenceb_> im almost certainly going to nick a load of code from openpilot
[12:13] <Laurenceb_> after all its basically openpilot on a single smaller pcb
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[12:19] <Laurenceb_> well with combined magno and accel, rs485 and ltc2481 based pitot sensor
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[12:25] <Laurenceb_> interestingly openpilot added a SAW filter on the front of the si4432 rx chain, it costs them 3dB but they think overall it may improve performance
[12:25] Action: Laurenceb_ is unconvinced
[12:28] <eroomde> I can well beleive it
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> guess it depends on the flying environment
[12:29] <eroomde> those wee chips with their fairly unsophisicated matching chains can be really pretty wide
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> apparently they never definitely tested it versus the silabs reference design ive used
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> hmm maybe something for version 2...
[12:30] <Laurenceb_> i certainly want to try the dual antenna support on the si4432
[12:31] Action: SpeedEvil wonders why on ebay - Ammonium Sulphamate is considered 'similar' to SAD daylight bulbs.
[12:31] <Laurenceb_> *shrug*
[12:32] <Laurenceb_> in fact if i had two taoglas flexipcb antennas with u.fl connectors... *drools*
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[12:40] <W0OTM> Hello World
[12:41] <Laurenceb_> #include <stdio.h>
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[13:14] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: Ordered springs from McMaster-Carr, No. 94125K141 48mm long, Compresses 25mm with 256N Load - just right for 230N load! #arhab [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/58880973714096128]
[13:16] <eroomde> where would we be without griffonbot
[13:16] <jonsowman> sarcasm?
[13:16] <jonsowman> :P
[13:18] <fsphil> ah, I was wondering when they where going to order those springs. good to know :)
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[13:32] <Laurenceb_> http://underdesign.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/deadtwitter_logo_700.png?w=700&h=700
[13:32] <Dan-K2VOL> mornin Laurenceb_
[13:33] <Laurenceb_> hi
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[13:36] <Dan-K2VOL> check out our latest breakaway link idea - http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar
[13:37] <NigeyS> hey Dan
[13:37] <Dan-K2VOL> mornin NigeyS
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[13:39] <NigeyS> neat linkage dude!
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[13:45] <StrayVoltage> Nope. /w
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[13:48] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: I'm not really sure I follow your email about breaking loads
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> What sort of load do yoiu plan to launch that needs 23Kg breakaway?
[13:48] <eroomde> in terms of enumerating various mass/acceleration couples
[13:49] <eroomde> or rather I don't see what EOSS and you are disgreeing on?
[13:53] <Dan-K2VOL> To qualify as a flight under ICAO rules as a LIGHT unmanned free balloon, your payload must disconnect from the balloon if a 230N force is applied to it
[13:53] <Dan-K2VOL> SpeedEvil can't just use mass to determine this, you also have to take into account acceleration, force is mass times acceleration
[13:54] <eroomde> in what direction?
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: competition fishing line
[13:54] <Dan-K2VOL> the US regulation is basically identical to ICAO except it uses a very confusable imperial unit
[13:55] <eroomde> And presumably it just means the harness needs a breaking force of 230N
[13:55] <imrcly> SpeedEvil: that is our fallback plan and is what we where going to use for our last launch
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> What's wrong with it?
[13:55] <imrcly> the problem is that it stretches over time and will break
[13:55] <Dan-K2VOL> regardless of what's used, it must actually do what the regulation says. In our experiments in the cryogenic chamber at 40C, normal fishing line is not even close to its advertised numbers, and stretches and breaks over time
[13:55] <SpeedEvil> imrcly: Over a couple of hours?
[13:55] <imrcly> yeah
[13:56] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde correct
[13:56] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: There are also lines made of kevlar and stuff.
[13:56] <imrcly> also testing those
[13:56] <Dan-K2VOL> SpeedEvil, cool, got part numbers?
[13:56] <eroomde> you could also just have strong string and a small coupling to the payload (say aluminium whose properties are more easily characterised) that has the appropriate breaking strain
[13:57] <eroomde> sorry if you've already thought of all this, just thinking out loud
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PE-DYNEEMA-BRAID-FISHING-LINE-60LB-300M-SPECTRA-RED-/280658930024?pt=UK_SportingGoods_FishingAcces_RL&hash=item4158936968
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> spectra I mean
[13:57] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde, the mass acceleration couples are just examples illustrating the point that you can achieve the 230N in many ways, and all of them require MOTION
[13:58] <eroomde> stretchy things could still be sued anyway though right?
[13:58] <eroomde> it'll yeild eventually
[13:58] <eroomde> used*
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> I would strongly suspect the balloon will tear on a load of 23kg
[13:59] <Dan-K2VOL> SpeedEvil, that's fine, however it will not fulfil the requirement of the law
[13:59] <imrcly> i picked up some stuff last night that needs to be tested it is braided and is supposed to not stretch
[13:59] <Dan-K2VOL> and how fast are you assuming that the 23Kg is accelerating in your suspicion?
[13:59] <SpeedEvil> Anyway - the easy way would be a couple of teeny disk magnets
[14:00] <imrcly> ordered them a couple days ago should be in soon
[14:00] <Dan-K2VOL> that's a good way too SpeedEvil, if you can make sure they release completely paralell to eachother as they disconnect
[14:00] <eroomde> hrm, i think parallel would be the upper bound
[14:00] <eroomde> so you'd be fine
[14:01] <Dan-K2VOL> upper bound?
[14:01] <eroomde> any other way and they'll separate with less force - fulfilling the requirement
[14:01] <Dan-K2VOL> heh, however WE don't want it to separate with less force than legally allowed
[14:02] <eroomde> true, but to separate any other way would require a torque to be placed on the magnets, which you can't do with flexible string on either side
[14:02] <imrcly> if we could get something that disconnected at 230N but held at 229N it would be perfect
[14:02] <eroomde> you'll just get an axial force (assuming it's made to a decent tolerance)
[14:02] <NigeyS> ping GW8RAK
[14:02] <Dan-K2VOL> actually just pulling on them form the center will usually result in one side opening before the other
[14:03] <eroomde> that wouldn't be from the centre but OK
[14:04] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde, yes, it would, we've tried, when using a flexible pulling device (string) mounted at the center of two disc magnets they will just NOT pull apart in parallel
[14:05] <Dan-K2VOL> there's always some minute offset in the magnetic field that unbalances them, and one edge stays together until both discs are parallel edge to edge, then they finally completely separate
[14:05] <eroomde> well fine, I guess that's cause of imperfect tolerances still, with that then you coud still characterise the slipping force between the faces
[14:05] <Dan-K2VOL> but it's easily acheivable by mounting them in concentric tubes
[14:05] <eroomde> ah yes, good idea
[14:05] <Dan-K2VOL> which we're going to try
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[14:06] <Dan-K2VOL> check this out http://t.co/Em1Ok7z
[14:06] <Dan-K2VOL> utilizing the old spring constant from newton
[14:06] <eroomde> neat
[14:06] <eroomde> looks good to me
[14:07] <SamSilver> I like the idea mentioned the other day, a strain gauge firing a FET melting nylon string
[14:07] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah I think that has the best chance to of being repeatable and simple
[14:07] <eroomde> i think i suggested a pyro but yep
[14:07] <Dan-K2VOL> I want the pyros for many other things, but this application needs to be passive
[14:07] <SamSilver> credit to eroomde >
[14:07] <eroomde> i was joking when I suggested it though - calibration of the strain guage wouldn't be much fun
[14:07] <Dan-K2VOL> our country makes it impossible to own the pyros though :-(
[14:08] <eroomde> and yes, not nearly as robust as a passive solution
[14:08] <eroomde> I'm sure ours does too
[14:08] <Dan-K2VOL> hahahaha
[14:08] <eroomde> doesn't stop me making them!
[14:08] <NigeyS> haha im gonna stick with magnets!
[14:08] <Dan-K2VOL> really? I was thinking you bought them
[14:08] <eroomde> nope
[14:08] <TangoAlphaWork> where does everyone buy their balloons?
[14:08] <eroomde> the tube with e-match that breaks in half are DIY
[14:09] <Dan-K2VOL> at the weather balloon store in our towns
[14:09] <NigeyS> tangoAlpha random solutions normally
[14:09] <TangoAlphaWork> that's what i thought
[14:09] <Dan-K2VOL> doesn't your town have one TangoAlphaWork?
[14:09] <eroomde> the pin-pusher things we've used for super critical applications are off the shelf though
[14:09] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[14:09] <TangoAlphaWork> no, it's not big enough
[14:09] <TangoAlphaWork> might be a business opportunity if i can get a franchise
[14:09] <NigeyS> what size balloon are you after ?
[14:09] <Dan-K2VOL> just being funny TAW, no one's city is lucky enough to have a weather balloon store that I know of
[14:10] <Dan-K2VOL> it's getting popular enough that it might be an idea though
[14:10] <eroomde> cambridge UK probably could qualify
[14:10] <TangoAlphaWork> i'm after a balloon that is big enough without being too expensive
[14:10] <TangoAlphaWork> :-)
[14:10] <eroomde> TangoAlphaWork: aren't we all
[14:10] <Dan-K2VOL> heh
[14:10] <eroomde> what is your payload mass and what kind of altitude would make you happy?
[14:10] <SamSilver> what colour?
[14:10] <TangoAlphaWork> my payload is currently 871 grams
[14:11] <SamSilver> I like green
[14:11] <TangoAlphaWork> ideally i'd like a stripey one
[14:11] <imrcly> do you have an example of the ematch cutter thing?
[14:11] <TangoAlphaWork> altitude...as high as possible
[14:11] <NigeyS> 1200g possibly
[14:11] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: http://www.flickr.com/photos/48225359@N03/5536585048/in/photostream
[14:11] <eroomde> you realise there's a no-fly zone over libya right?
[14:12] <SamSilver> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/calc/
[14:12] <imrcly> eroomde: the plan was th cutdown near a city right off the coast
[14:12] <TangoAlphaWork> no one has bought one of the 2200 weather balloons on ebay form the states?
[14:12] <Dan-K2VOL> anyway eroomde, EOSS has led the US ballooning groups to assume that the US law which refers to the impact force as "50lb" means 50lbs mass, applied at jet cruising speeds, rouglhy 500 MPH is when the payload string needs to break
[14:12] <NigeyS> eroomde, they are gonna let the RAF cutdown via tomahawk missile ;)
[14:13] <Dan-K2VOL> ha
[14:13] <NigeyS> be the most expensive cutdown device in history mind!
[14:13] <Dan-K2VOL> hehe eroomde, yeah, we aren't going to push our luck anyway, if we get over land in the Sahara Desert, we're cutting down immediately as close to the coast as possible
[14:14] <Dan-K2VOL> to have some chance of recovery
[14:14] <eroomde> NigeyS: our pyrotechnic pin pushers were £60 each
[14:14] <eroomde> granted a tomahawk costs more
[14:14] <Dan-K2VOL> whoah
[14:14] <eroomde> still, we come a close 2nd
[14:14] <NigeyS> EACH? :o woah!
[14:15] <eroomde> they really HAD to work
[14:15] <imrcly> Dan-K2VOL: check out the prediction for the 18th
[14:15] <eroomde> that was in quantities of 15+
[14:16] <Dan-K2VOL> looking imrcly
[14:16] <eroomde> NigeyS: the military use them like old rope. They're immensely useful and massively reliable
[14:17] <NigeyS> oh i bet, just not as cheap as old rope hehe!
[14:17] <eroomde> :)
[14:17] <NigeyS> btw ed i got some polystyrene balls for the radials
[14:17] <Dan-K2VOL> imrcly hysplit looks broken on my iphone, that doesn't look like more than about a 3 hour flight path
[14:17] <NigeyS> i think they maybe to big though, could only get 60mm :S
[14:17] <Dan-K2VOL> do you see any time symbols on your computer?
[14:17] <eroomde> hitler, he only had one ball. the other, was for the ray-dee-al
[14:17] <imrcly> ok i was seeing the same thing
[14:17] <NigeyS> lol
[14:18] <Dan-K2VOL> let tyler know
[14:18] <NigeyS> im wondering, if i effectively lose the amount of radial that's inside the poly ?
[14:18] <eroomde> nope
[14:18] <NigeyS> says its covered to 20mm, do i have to make the radial an extra 20mm longer to compensate ?
[14:18] <eroomde> polystyrene has a very low density, so an almost identic permittivity as air
[14:18] <NigeyS> perfect then, i can get to work on those tonight
[14:18] <eroomde> any difference would be immesurable, and besides radials aren't tuned
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[14:19] <eroomde> they're just approximating an infinite plane. as long as they're > 1/4 wavelength long they come suprisingly close to the theoretical impedance
[14:19] <NigeyS> okies, ive got them to pretty much the exact size, maybe a few mm out at the most
[14:20] <eroomde> longer is better anyway. no need to sweat over it
[14:20] <NigeyS> phew!
[14:21] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: the EOS definition seems quite nonsensical to me
[14:21] <eroomde> not even dimensionally consistant
[14:22] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde, yes, I agree, however when discussing it with a rep of EOSS they don't seem to understand
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[14:23] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[14:23] <NigeyS> hey W0OTM :-)
[14:23] <W0OTM> howdy
[14:23] <Dan-K2VOL> mornin W0OTM
[14:24] <W0OTM> howdy Dan-K2VOL
[14:25] <W0OTM> whats new in the HAB world
[14:25] <Dan-K2VOL> eroomde, I'm fiddling with wolframalpha to figure out how many newtons the EOSS definition would actually equal
[14:25] <Dan-K2VOL> the problem is figuring out what the acceleration would be
[14:25] <W0OTM> EOSS Def?
[14:26] <W0OTM> since when are they a governing body?
[14:26] <Dan-K2VOL> think I could assume that if the plane hit the string 10m above the payload, that the payload would take 10m of horizontal travel distance up to 800kph to as it swung up parallel to the horizontal motion of the plane?
[14:27] <Dan-K2VOL> the EOSS interpretation of the payload separation impact force US regulation
[14:27] <W0OTM> WHAT?!?!
[14:27] <W0OTM> explain
[14:27] <W0OTM> "force US regulation"
[14:28] <Dan-K2VOL> just a sec, I'll just link
[14:28] <W0OTM> EOSS is an amateur HAB group yes?
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[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, it's one of the oldest, most active and seemingly well respected groups. It's explanation of the FAA regs is the commonly referenced one in the US amateur HAB community
[14:31] <SamSilver> 50lb is a weight > a mass that has had G acted apon
[14:31] <Dan-K2VOL> here is the EOSS annotated Federal Aviation Regulations: http://www.eoss.org/pubs/far_annotated.htm
[14:32] <W0OTM> LOL, well, as an Amateur HAB enthusiast, ill choose to the interpret the FAA regs myself. Its not up to another group of my peers to do it for me
[14:33] <Dan-K2VOL> yes I recall your desire to do that
[14:33] <W0OTM> I know your project is very visible
[14:33] <SamSilver> <Dan-K2VOL> the EOSS interpretation of the payload separation impact force US regulation
[14:33] <W0OTM> but disheartens me that the EOSS (and other peers) are dictating what can and can't do
[14:34] <Dan-K2VOL> they aren't dictating W0OTM, they're helping others understand the regulations
[14:34] <SamSilver> re-read W0OTM
[14:34] <SamSilver> <Dan-K2VOL> the EOSS interpretation of the payload separation impact force US regulation
[14:34] <SamSilver> the opertavie word is impact
[14:34] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: ok, not "dictating", but forcing their "interpretation"
[14:34] <SamSilver> <Dan-K2VOL> the EOSS interpretation of the payload separation impact force US regulation
[14:34] <W0OTM> "interpretation" is very subjective
[14:35] <SamSilver> re read what Dan-K2VOL wrote in full
[14:35] <SamSilver> <Dan-K2VOL> the EOSS interpretation of the payload separation impact force US regulation
[14:35] <W0OTM> SamSilver: no need to spam
[14:36] <W0OTM> anywho, stay below 6lbs and all a mute point
[14:36] <Dan-K2VOL> no, actually that's unrelated to what I'm talking about
[14:37] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: payload separation impact does not apply unilaterally
[14:38] <SamSilver> If I may quote again: [16:27] <W0OTM> WHAT?!?!
[14:38] <SamSilver> 16:27] <W0OTM> explain
[14:38] <SamSilver> 16:27] <W0OTM> "force US regulation"
[14:38] <W0OTM> SamSilver: ok, we all know your C&P works.
[14:38] <NigeyS> lol
[14:39] <W0OTM> SamSilver: unless you have something else to contribute, shutup for now
[14:39] <Dan-K2VOL> come on guys, we can be polite
[14:39] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM ?
[14:39] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: im reading EOSS annotations
[14:40] <Dan-K2VOL> SamSilver, I apologize for the rudeness coming over from this side of the pond
[14:41] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: the EOSS annotations appear to me as how the EOSS group chooses to interpret the FAR. You are just saying that some of the US HAB community chooses to follow their lead?
[14:41] <Dan-K2VOL> yes
[14:41] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: ok, fair enough
[14:42] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: Then I would say your first comment "EOSS interpretation of the payload separation impact force US regulation" isn't accurate. EOSS doesn't "drive" FAA regulation
[14:43] <Dan-K2VOL> wow eroomde, if you apply the 50lb "mass"(23kg) at 500MPH(800kph) accelerating the string and payload over the distance of 10M, it gives you a force of 26700N
[14:43] <Dan-K2VOL> I meant the physics term force
[14:44] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM, it's the section about "impact force"
[14:44] <Dan-K2VOL> in the FAA regs
[14:44] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: Although, I disagree (as we have discussed before) with following others interpretation. In the event you have something bad happen, EOSS will NOT defend you when push comes to shove
[14:44] <imrcly> (iv) Uses a rope or other device for suspension of the payload that requires an impact force of more than 50 pounds to separate the suspended payload from the balloon.
[14:44] <Dan-K2VOL> my concern is that EOSS is operating illegally
[14:44] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: I am VERY much excited about your project!
[14:44] <Gnea> I don't see the problem with recognizing and respecting the regulations that have been set forth by other HAB groups
[14:45] <W0OTM> Gnea: HAB groups aren't a governing body
[14:45] <Dan-K2VOL> Gnea, EOSS is just providing a layman's explanation of the US rules, not making their own rules
[14:45] <W0OTM> Gnea: HAB groups don't make "regulations"
[14:45] <Dan-K2VOL> however I think they are not correctly understanding the regulations
[14:45] <Gnea> W0OTM: there's a difference between governing and spelling out a few rules
[14:46] <Dan-K2VOL> Cool W0OTM
[14:46] <Gnea> Dan-K2VOL: gotcha
[14:46] <imrcly> i just pasted from the regulation they specify a force applied to the rigging
[14:46] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: You and I may not agree on EVERYTHING, but I sure do respect you and your team
[14:46] <imrcly> they never specify if that is including existing payload
[14:46] <Gnea> anyone can spell out rules, that doesn't make them a governing body
[14:47] <W0OTM> Gnea: "rules" have NO effect if they aren't governed
[14:47] <Dan-K2VOL> thanks W0OTM, I also really like how thoroughly you present your flights online
[14:48] <Gnea> W0OTM: right, because anyone can disregard them, go and do something, and piss as many people off without caring
[14:48] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: thank you. We all do our own "due diligence"
[14:49] <W0OTM> Gnea: the governing of "rules" has NOTHING todo with the possibility of pissing people off.
[14:49] <Gnea> W0OTM: it doesn't? then why are rules ever made up in the first place?
[14:50] <imrcly> to make science more difficult
[14:50] <Gnea> lol
[14:50] <W0OTM> Gnea: example, I could fly a KKK flag from my payload. Doesn't break any "rules" but surely piss some people off
[14:51] <Gnea> W0OTM: well sure, you could, but then it becomes a difference between "can do something" or "should do something"
[14:51] <W0OTM> Gnea: as it relates to "rules" - "can do something" and "should do something" aren't related in ANY way
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[14:52] <W0OTM> Gnea: "rules" define CAN and CAN'T
[14:52] <W0OTM> Gnea: NOT should an shouldn't
[14:52] <imrcly> no rules define what you can be punished for
[14:52] <Gnea> W0OTM: only if you prefer to keep your focus narrowed in that sense, yes
[14:52] <Gnea> imrcly: agreed
[14:53] <W0OTM> imrcly: correct, if you do something a "rule" says you CAN'T do, then you get punished. Its called governing
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[14:53] <Dan-K2VOL> what country are you in Gnea?
[14:54] <Gnea> Dan-K2VOL: USA
[14:54] <Dan-K2VOL> cool, where in the US
[14:54] <Gnea> Iowa.
[14:54] <W0OTM> Gnea: REALLY
[14:54] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
[14:54] <W0OTM> Gnea: where?
[14:54] <Dan-K2VOL> Gnea, meet your neighbor
[14:54] Action: W0OTM pirks up
[14:54] <Gnea> oh, I knew he was a neighbor :)
[14:54] <Gnea> W0OTM: ISU
[14:54] <W0OTM> Gnea: oh ok
[14:54] <Dan-K2VOL> :-)
[14:54] <Gnea> ;)
[14:54] <W0OTM> :)
[14:55] <W0OTM> Gnea: OH ur one of THOSE guys......J/K
[14:55] <Dan-K2VOL> most people in here are not in the US usually
[14:55] <Gnea> heh
[14:55] <W0OTM> Just note guys, this discussion is JUST for discussion sake
[14:55] Action: Gnea notes that his salt shaker is quite full
[14:56] <W0OTM> I don't mean to alienate anyone, just a good ol debate
[14:56] <W0OTM> Anywho, new payload pics are posted for the iHAB-4 launch
[14:56] <W0OTM> http://www.ihabproject.com/iHAB-4/
[14:57] <Gnea> W0OTM: since we're going for 'just for the record' discussion here, I never meant any disrespect, just wanted to clarify and understand where you were coming from.
[14:57] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: you will be happy to know that even though I don't HAVE to fly a CutDown device, I am anyways :)
[14:57] <W0OTM> Gnea: all good! ur still my buddy!
[14:57] <W0OTM> Gnea: did I meet you at the ARES Meeting in DM?
[14:58] <Gnea> W0OTM: didn't go to that meeting
[14:58] <eroomde> ok, just caught up with the discussion for discussion's sake
[14:58] <Gnea> W0OTM: but I wouldn't be surprised if we know a lot of the same people
[14:58] <Dan-K2VOL> they are handy though aren't they? Wish I had some on many of the latex flights that went too far
[14:58] <W0OTM> Gnea: ok, someone from your team was, didnt catch his callsign
[14:58] <eroomde> I agree, if you witness a colleage or peer explaing something to someone that you know would put them in contravention of the law, you're quite right to call them on it
[14:58] <Gnea> W0OTM: was that the actual meeting-meeting or the 800-run?
[14:59] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: regional EC meeting
[14:59] <Dan-K2VOL> ec?
[14:59] <W0OTM> opps, Gnea : regional EC meeting
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[14:59] <W0OTM> Emergency Corodinator
[14:59] <Dan-K2VOL> k
[14:59] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: question
[14:59] <Gnea> W0OTM: ah, no I didn't make that one
[14:59] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: want your opinion
[15:00] <Dan-K2VOL> what's up
[15:00] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: my cutdown module shorts a 10ohm 1/4 watt resistor accross a 9V bat to melt the string
[15:00] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: it gets PLENTY hot on the ground, do you think it will still get just as warm at altitude?
[15:01] <imrcly> is it going to be in the outside air?
[15:01] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: at 16V, the resistor glows red for about 6 sec
[15:01] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM it would be helped greatly to enclose it in styrofoam
[15:01] <Gnea> eroomde: I'm quite inclined to agree
[15:01] <Dan-K2VOL> wow
[15:02] <Dan-K2VOL> is that a resistance wire or an actual color banded device
[15:02] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: actual color banded device
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[15:03] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: at 9V after about 10 sec, its hot enough to burn ur fingers
[15:03] <Dan-K2VOL> if it gets that hot down here, as long as you can form an oven for it up there it should be OK, though I've only seen people use actual resistance wire, a la Nichrome
[15:03] <NigeyS> afternoon jgrahamc
[15:03] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm that seems a little long to rely on
[15:03] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: ok, well I slid a straw over the resistor
[15:03] <W0OTM> ill find a pic
[15:03] <jgrahamc> Afternoon NigeyS
[15:04] <eroomde> At some point it'll become more effective
[15:04] <W0OTM> http://yfrog.com/h0zhvjfj
[15:04] <Gnea> atmosphere within a styrofoam container typically remains acutely different to outside atmosphere at such elevations when contained properly
[15:04] <eroomde> it wont be able to conduct heat away to the surrounding air (surface area/volume ratio is high at the scale of a resistor) and so will heat up faster
[15:05] <W0OTM> eroomde: even better!
[15:05] <jgrahamc> That's a resistor based cut down?
[15:05] <W0OTM> yes
[15:05] <jgrahamc> Interesting
[15:05] <W0OTM> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oyWSXmmkHk&feature=player_embedded
[15:06] <Gnea> hopefully it won't be too windy that day :)
[15:06] <W0OTM> Gnea: what you mean?
[15:06] <Gnea> W0OTM: I like the cutdown method
[15:06] <Gnea> W0OTM: well, as I recall, that last flight to Chicago was quite a runner
[15:07] <W0OTM> Gnea: thanks, im flying it in couple weeks, I plan to cutdown before burst
[15:07] <W0OTM> Gnea: yes
[15:07] <Gnea> W0OTM: we were afraid that you were going to run into some authority problems over there
[15:07] <W0OTM> Gnea: I was more concerned about it landing in the hood
[15:08] <Gnea> W0OTM: same
[15:08] <W0OTM> Gnea: get jumped by the hommies!
[15:08] <Gnea> :)
[15:08] <eroomde> my only concern about resistors around wires is fatigue failures on windy days
[15:08] <eroomde> the wires can get thrown about a bit
[15:08] <Gnea> W0OTM: yes, I was quite glad that it worked out the way that it did :)
[15:08] <W0OTM> eroomde: I planed on wrapping the wires around the shroud lines, up through the shute, ect
[15:08] <eroomde> this video should illustrate some of the nastiness: http://vimeo.com/1598522
[15:09] <W0OTM> What video camera are people using?
[15:09] <eroomde> W0OTM: OK. When we flew resistors we made a little fixing that hald the string in place around half the perimeter of a bobbin, pressed againsting the resistor
[15:10] <W0OTM> eroomde: I tied a knot around the resistor, and then wrapped the leads around the string
[15:10] <W0OTM> eroomde: http://yfrog.com/h0zhvjfj
[15:11] <W0OTM> eroomde: in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oyWSXmmkHk&feature=player_embedded you can see I used clip leads to connect the resistor to the power lines
[15:12] <eroomde> I see - I guess as long as the resistors legged wrapped around the string dont get too much force applied to them, it's all gravy
[15:13] <jgrahamc> Some of the photos from GAGA-1 show a lot of turbulence at high altitude: shots almost pointing straight down indicating capsule must have been on its side. e.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/53617036@N00/5612037498/in/set-72157626480761750
[15:13] <W0OTM> eroomde: I havnt had one fail yet, although again, havn't flown it yet
[15:14] <W0OTM> Gnea: you use any chat apps? Gtalk, MSN, ect?
[15:14] <eroomde> W0OTM: :P
[15:15] <Gnea> W0OTM: mostly just irc
[15:15] <W0OTM> k
[15:15] <eroomde> If I had a pound (or 1.61 dollars) for every time I've helped with a launch where something failed and I heard 'Well, it worked on the bench...'
[15:16] <W0OTM> eroomde: thats the fun of it!
[15:16] <W0OTM> eroomde: I think I like failing more than success
[15:16] <Gnea> hehe yeah
[15:16] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd wrap it in bubble wrap or styrofoam
[15:16] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: ok, that would hurt anything
[15:16] <Gnea> well, you can't succeed unless you know where to avoid fail, and you can't know fail without failing :)
[15:17] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: wouldnt
[15:17] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM building a cryo chamber is fun, I recommend it
[15:17] <Gnea> or at least seeing the potential, in some cases
[15:17] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: got links?
[15:17] <eroomde> Gnea: I neglected to mention the number of times I've said that too!
[15:18] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: is it true bubblewrap acts like a greenhouse at altitude?
[15:18] <Dan-K2VOL> just a sec
[15:18] <Dan-K2VOL> yes W0OTM, Bill Brown WB8ELK uses only that on his trackers
[15:18] <eroomde> Gnea: I think 'progress' as an engineer is really just the number of unknown unknown decreasing from one project to the next
[15:18] <Dan-K2VOL> they work fine in the day, quite warm. and they go to 40 real quick after sunset!
[15:19] <Gnea> eroomde: I tend to prefer avoid saying it, I find that it clutters the progression of progress if overused
[15:19] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: what "science
[15:19] <Gnea> eroomde: agreed :)
[15:19] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: what "science" is causing bubblewrap to do that?
[15:20] <eroomde> Gnea: I was recently out in switzerland with work where we had a robotic airship. the number of completely random problems was astonishing. one day it decided it wouldn't boot up correctly unless it was facing south, for example
[15:20] <Gnea> eroomde: awesome.
[15:20] <eroomde> I thought so
[15:21] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM, at high altitudes the low density air has little ability to carry away heat. Radiation from the sun is absorbed heats very efficiently as the primary heat loss is via re-radiation
[15:22] <eroomde> i'd picked a crap prior on a non-linear estimator that fused some of our sensor data, it turned out. that caused some out of range errors on a logger which upset a kernal module on the linux board which was (again my fault) doing some stuff that would be better done in user space. In the end it just made the thing crash
[15:22] <eroomde> took a devil of a time to debug
[15:22] <Dan-K2VOL> so the bubble wrap fends off what little air-cooling there is, and bounces back a lot of the IR radiation that the boards are re-radiating
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[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: conducrtion is actually almost as efficient at low pressures
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: It doesn't really fall off until the mean free path grows over the size of your container
[15:23] <Dan-K2VOL> do explain then
[15:23] <jgrahamc> Debugging is very satisfying though eroomde
[15:23] <eroomde> so bubble wrap would still be a good idea SpeedEvil . lower thermal mass of stuff for the resistor to heat up
[15:23] <SpeedEvil> Or something like that. Convection drops way off
[15:24] <Gnea> eroomde: I bet, was that using an embedded distribution?
[15:24] <eroomde> nope, Arch running on a Core 2 Duo PC104 board
[15:24] <eroomde> it was doing computer vision (3D reconstruction) on board so it needed lots of omph
[15:24] <imrcly> time to build a vacuum chamber around the cryochamber it seems
[15:24] <Gnea> nice
[15:24] <eroomde> jgrahamc: yes, in moderation. I'd rather avoid the bugs in the first place!
[15:25] <jgrahamc> Good philosophy
[15:25] <Dan-K2VOL> nah it's not worth the effort in my opinion to go to much trouble to test in vacuum. if you've got a chamber already, by all means
[15:25] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: conduction is driven by collisions of atoms. It doesn't matter much if the gap rises between collisions, because the individual atoms move further.
[15:25] <eroomde> well, it's frustrating when it's a problem with both crap maths and crap programming. one of the other in isolation i find easier to handle
[15:25] <Dan-K2VOL> there's very little effects that have been seen at altitude due to vacuum that aren't either very expected and understandable
[15:25] <eroomde> or*
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[15:26] <Dan-K2VOL> However SpeedEvil, you have less atoms
[15:27] <eroomde> also remember gravity is 1% lower at 32km so convection reduces
[15:27] <eroomde> now let's discuss what colour to paint the bike sheds
[15:27] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: sure.
[15:27] <NigeyS> pink!
[15:28] <eroomde> actually yes, in the context of hab it should be lurid and bright
[15:28] <jgrahamc> eroomde: "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes
[15:28] <Dan-K2VOL> are you launching bike sheds eroomde?
[15:28] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[15:28] <NigeyS> lol
[15:29] <jgrahamc> eroomde: that was in 1949
[15:29] <eroomde> Dan-K2VOL: we once launched out of a baike shed if that's close enough
[15:29] <eroomde> jgrahamc: yes I remember reading that :)
[15:29] <Dan-K2VOL> heh
[15:29] <eroomde> I met him once at a wireless society dinner
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[15:29] <eroomde> it's starnage sitting next to someone credited with inventing 'The Subroutine'
[15:29] <eroomde> strange*
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[15:30] <jgrahamc> Yes, amazing.
[15:30] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM here's an entertaining video closeup of a nichrome wire cutdown operating in a cryo chamber at 40C. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/12659392
[15:32] <Dan-K2VOL> that will be inside our payload box, so there shouldn't be any air currents, but we still may put some fiberglass fluff insulation around it to make sure it's got nothing to complain about
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[15:33] <imrcly> i do know that it is possible to blow onthe nichrom just with breath enough to make it not affective also
[15:34] <Dan-K2VOL> it's easier at our air pressure to do that than at high altitude, but either way, insulation will solve that
[15:35] <Dan-K2VOL> W0OTM we have extra nichrome if you would like some to try out
[15:36] <imrcly> you can also get a few hundred feet on ebay for real cheap
[15:36] <Gnea> W0OTM: just an FYI, my callsign is KD0FHS, and I've only been recently getting into HAB within the past year - just so you know, I'm not the veteran that many of you fellows are. :)
[15:37] <eroomde> I'm a hopeless ham
[15:37] <Gnea> but I do enjoy debating, learning and making new friends
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Aha!
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: http://www.electronics-cooling.com/2002/11/the-thermal-conductivity-of-air-at-reduced-pressures-and-length-scales/
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> 1. Take T=300 K, and d=1 cm. To get a tenfold reduction in thermal conductivity, the pressure parameter should be about 10-5. This means that the pressure should be below 0.3 Pa.
[15:39] <jgrahamc> A 'hopeless ham' eroomde ?
[15:40] <eroomde> practice makes parma
[15:40] <eroomde> I'll get my coat
[15:40] <eroomde> I meant that I am useless as an amateur radio enthusiast
[15:40] <eroomde> I really just got my license to help with ballooning
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[15:40] <eroomde> I've never had an urge to chin wag on the local repeater
[15:40] <jgrahamc> Aah. A bit like me. I have the license, but never have time to talk to anyone.
[15:41] <jgrahamc> Seem to remember RocketBoy saying there were two types of hams: talkers and makers. I'd be the latter.
[15:41] <Dan-K2VOL> agreed, I use amateur radio as a data comm tool
[15:42] <eroomde> yep, definitely at the maker end
[15:42] <eroomde> super resolution direction finding has really wetted my noodle recently
[15:42] <Gnea> eroomde: I got my license to learn more about radio and electronics in general, stumbled upon ballooning and have been hooked ever since
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[15:42] <eroomde> and there doesn't seem to yet be an open hardware super resolution DF system yet
[15:43] <eroomde> so... gap in the project market
[15:43] <Gnea> like an over-glorified software defined radio?
[15:43] <Dan-K2VOL> SpeedEvil, lovely units, Newtons per milliKelvin?
[15:44] <eroomde> well, certainly it's software defined but it's really about accurately determining what direction a signal is coming from with an array of antennas
[15:44] <eroomde> say, sub-degree accuracy from an array of 8 verticals
[15:45] <eroomde> we can multiplex in time and in frequency, but we don;t really do spatially. no reason why we shouldn't! we could fly a bunch of balloons at the same freq that way
[15:45] <Gnea> I do talk on the radio now and then when the necessity dictates it, but getting more into the data side of things lately... I like the idea of being able to call someone up on a repeater when things start to shift
[15:45] <jgrahamc> You ought to apply for a job at Hanslope Park
[15:46] <eroomde> I suspect a lot of ham interest would come from peope who take their competitions seriously. being able to spatially resolve would *massively* help with pile-ups
[15:47] <Gnea> yeah, that's one problem I've been trying to sort, especially while mobile and not on a repeater
[15:47] <eroomde> jgrahamc: I know that the military already have this tech
[15:47] <eroomde> it's not really publically available though
[15:47] <Dan-K2VOL> SpeedEvil, I don't understand that article, and the graph that might be helpful labels pressure in a non-sensical unit
[15:47] <Dan-K2VOL> N/mK that even wolfram alpha has no idea what it mean
[15:47] <Dan-K2VOL> s
[15:47] <eroomde> or you have mechanical solutions like pointing a yagi, but that's quite a lot less elegant and flexible than an electronically stearable array, i think
[15:48] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm not great at unit conversion
[15:48] <SamSilver> bbl
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[15:49] <Dan-K2VOL> ttyl SamSilver
[15:49] <SamSilver> k
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[15:50] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: It's not a sensible unit because it depends on the dimension that you care about
[15:51] <eroomde> Gnea: there's some really really lovely maths that lets you find out where signals are coming from with an array of antennas, and there's also some really juicy RF hardware design, array optimisation, and signal processing. it'd be a meaty meaty project, but a lot of fun!
[15:51] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: the pressure at which conduction between two parallel plates spaced 1cm apart falls to 1/10th differs from that at 10cm
[15:51] <Gnea> eroomde: true, but I think it's worth the consideration
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[15:52] <NigeyS> eroomde,
[15:52] <eroomde> yo
[15:52] <NigeyS> http://twitpic.com/4l60ud .. how's that ? lol
[15:53] <eroomde> a thing of beauty!
[15:53] <NigeyS> :D yey .. not perfect but if it saves someones eyesight ...
[15:53] <jonsowman> wow that's amazing
[15:53] <NigeyS> lol it has big balls
[15:53] <Gnea> NigeyS: SWEET antenna!!
[15:54] <NigeyS> jonsowman, its so hard to keep those radials straight!
[15:54] <jonsowman> yeah
[15:54] <eroomde> yes, you might want to re-inforce them
[15:54] <NigeyS> tnx gnea, hopefully if the adapter gets here tomorrow it'll be out for testing sunday!
[15:54] <eroomde> if you'd be unwilling to throw it down the stairs it might be unwise to launch it!
[15:54] <Gnea> NigeyS: awesome, what time do you think it'll fly?
[15:55] <NigeyS> eroomde, i was thinking that, what would you suggest .. something underneath the radials ?
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: anyway - conduction between two plates spaced at 1cm at 0.3pA is about a tenth of atmospheric - conduction at 3pA is about 0.6 times normal, conduction at 30pA is about 99% of sea-level.
[15:55] <NigeyS> Gnea, it'll be a june launch i think
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> Pascals, not picoamps
[15:55] <eroomde> i'd get some long thick cable ties
[15:55] <eroomde> or similar
[15:55] <eroomde> and use them as splints
[15:55] <eroomde> likewise for the vertical
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: I was doing research on this a bit ago WRT home-made dewars.
[15:55] <Gnea> NigeyS: alright
[15:55] <eroomde> they're flexible but tough
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: It's a bit annoying.
[15:55] <NigeyS> eroomde, ah good idea, i have some long nylon ties here
[15:56] <Dan-K2VOL> it sounds it, but how well does a plate 1cm away translate?
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: what do you mean?
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: Conduction between two plates is an ideal and is approximate for containers of the same scale
[15:57] <Dan-K2VOL> there's no plate to conduct to here, and I don't see references to how they avoid radiation
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: radiation is irrelevant and independant.
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> The pressure dependance of conductivity is related to scale.
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> As the size rises, the pressure needed to get the same thermal conductivity between the sides falls.
[16:00] <Dan-K2VOL> so can expound upon how the bubble wrap works so well when it provides hardly any insulation?
[16:00] <Dan-K2VOL> can you
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> It'a a radiation barrier
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> so it should work about identially at sea level as 75000 ft
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> identically
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> given the same radiation input
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> Radiation is enormously more important at altitude - and at low temperature - as the outsides are much colder
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> And as convection drops away as being a consideration
[16:03] <Dan-K2VOL> more important?
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[16:08] <eroomde> yes it's more important. a bit of foil would work better than bubble wrap forex
[16:09] <eroomde> well, not sure about 75000ft, but >100000ft certainly
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[16:13] <Dan-K2VOL> Bill's intended purpose for the bubble wrap is to allow solar radiation IN and not allow air movement
[16:14] <Dan-K2VOL> I think foil would be counterproductive on the solar radiation part
[16:14] <eroomde> definitely would
[16:14] <Dan-K2VOL> unless you used black foil
[16:14] <Dan-K2VOL> that might be nicer actually
[16:14] <eroomde> but you may aswell use something black if you care about solar radiation
[16:14] <eroomde> and let it radiate to the inside
[16:15] <eroomde> you beat my to it
[16:15] <Gnea> you don't have to use foil everywhere
[16:18] <Gnea> if you wanted to focus radiation inlet, perhaps 'gulping' pockets of radiation would be feasible. I'm not sure if that is Bill's intention or not.
[16:19] <eroomde> i'm not yet convinced any of this is particularly solving a problem
[16:20] <eroomde> or at least, a problem that needs to be solved
[16:20] <eroomde> but it'd be interested to see a solar collector on a hab
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[16:26] <Gnea> I wasn't sure if that would help solve a problem or not, I just threw it out there for 'food for thought'
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[16:29] <Gnea> https://picasaweb.google.com/jgiglierano/HABWorkshop3611#5581933585916322402
[16:31] <eroomde> https://picasaweb.google.com/jgiglierano/HABWorkshop3611#5581933585916322402
[16:31] <eroomde> beats teddies
[16:31] <Gnea> https://picasaweb.google.com/kb0mgq/HABETFlightL125A# :)
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[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Polythene bubblewrap is likely to be long-wave-IR transparent
[16:34] <Gnea> would that go around the outside or inside of the payload?
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> There is always the other silly solution.
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/40-x-150mm-Vacuum-Dewar-Flask-Liquid-Nitrogen-Cryogenic-/380242222904?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_Supplies_ET&hash=item588833df38
[16:36] <Gnea> depending on how much energy you wish to expend on a flight
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[16:42] <griffonbot> @fsphil: No hadie:3 launch this weekend. Can't get enough people for the chase team, despite an excellent prediction for Saturday. #ukhas #arhab [http://twitter.com/fsphil/status/58933133998960640]
[16:42] <fsphil> meh, people. who needs them :)
[16:43] <jonsowman> :(
[16:43] <LazyLeopard> Oh dear :(
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[16:43] <fsphil> ah well, I probably should have given them more than 3 days notice
[16:44] <fsphil> at least they'll be ready for next time
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[16:52] <NigeyS> meh like it hasnt just taken 45mins to build a shelf for the payload box :|
[16:52] <NigeyS> that mylar stuff is horrid to work with
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> I've been building shelves for my wardrobe.
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> Also took ages more than it should.
[16:53] <NigeyS> oh crikey, keep me away from REAL shelves, i dont do straight lines well!
[16:54] <fsphil> a shelf?
[16:54] <fsphil> I use a tripod ... Trisha the Tripod
[16:54] <NigeyS> yeah, to keep the beacon electronics and the main payload seperate
[16:55] <fsphil> aah for inside the payload box
[16:55] <NigeyS> yups, ill take pic in a min, i need my coffee first, my shagis pretty much done, i dont think ill attempt to crimp an sma though!
[16:55] <fsphil> you'd need a proper crimp tool - but it really is easy
[16:56] <fsphil> as long as you remember to put the little metal slieve on first
[16:56] <NigeyS> ah yes, that helps!
[16:56] <fsphil> yep. guilty of doing that the first time :)
[16:56] <NigeyS> oh phil , it has balls! http://twitpic.com/4l60ud
[16:57] <fsphil> goodness gracious!
[16:57] <NigeyS> lol
[16:57] <fsphil> brb, doggie walk time
[16:57] <NigeyS> have fun
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[17:04] <Zuph> Holy Crap
[17:04] Action: Zuph has a weekend of *free time*
[17:04] Action: NigeyS faints
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[17:15] <Zuph> It's raining, too, I can't even do the yard work I've been putting off :-p
[17:16] <LazyLeopard> Could use some rain here...
[17:17] <Zuph> We've had too much. Air show's going to be pretty boring if it keeps up tomorrow. I can hear the Jets doing practice runs between the waterfront and the airport.
[17:17] <Dan-K2VOL> hey Brad, want to hotplate the PCBs for speedball-2?
[17:18] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[17:19] <Zuph> Hey Dan, want to laser cut me some stencils for the PCBs for Speedball-2?
[17:19] <Zuph> :-P
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[17:44] <griffonbot> @apexhab: Apex II Launch 3 planned for this summer #apexhab #ukhas [http://twitter.com/apexhab/status/58948711178440704]
[17:44] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: what power source do you have to use for nichrome wire?
[17:47] <W0OTM> What video camera are people using to get video for the duration of the flight?
[17:48] <jonsowman> we flew a GoPro HD camera the other day
[17:49] <W0OTM> how long will it record?
[17:49] <jonsowman> I think it was ~4hours ona 32GB SD card
[17:49] <jonsowman> *on a
[17:49] <jonsowman> it was still recording when we found the payload
[17:49] <jonsowman> 720p 60fps
[17:49] <W0OTM> really
[17:49] <W0OTM> nice!
[17:50] <jonsowman> this one
[17:50] <jonsowman> http://gopro.com/cameras/hd-hero-naked-camera/
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[17:50] <jonsowman> it says 4hr21 on a 32GB card at 720p 60fps
[17:50] <jonsowman> same recording time for 1080p 30fps
[17:51] <Gnea> the hero is pretty decent
[17:52] <Dan-K2VOL> w0Otm it's 4 Energizer Lithium AA batts
[17:52] <Dan-K2VOL> in series
[17:53] <Dan-K2VOL> They (and your lithium 9V) will need to be kept above 20C to supply enough current.
[17:54] <Dan-K2VOL> during the day that's easy, just a little insulation (styrofoam box, bubble wrap) and/or painting them/container black
[17:54] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: a 9V isn't enough to get nickrome wire to even get hot
[17:54] <Dan-K2VOL> at night it's pretty hard to keep a standalone cutdown device box warm
[17:55] <Dan-K2VOL> the 30ga nichrome wire we use is about 2 ohms per inch
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[17:55] <Dan-K2VOL> it will be quite brightly lit with about 3 inches
[17:55] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: do me a favor, short out a 9V with it and see what happens
[17:55] <Dan-K2VOL> don't believe in math?
[17:55] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: not really :)
[17:56] <Dan-K2VOL> not engineer eh
[17:56] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: nope, banker
[17:56] <Dan-K2VOL> oh
[17:56] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: im serious, will you test that for me
[17:56] <Zuph> W0OTM: Alkaline 9v isn't, lithium is.
[17:56] <Dan-K2VOL> well, if you start trusting math I'll short a 9v for you on ustream this evening
[17:57] <W0OTM> Zuph: huh?
[17:57] <Dan-K2VOL> I would highly recommend against the 9v lithium anyway due to its small storage capacity
[17:57] <Zuph> Lithium 9v battery can supply enough current to light up the nichrome.
[17:57] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: Im not using Lithium
[17:57] <Zuph> An alkaline 9v won't, though.
[17:57] <Dan-K2VOL> if it's got enough power to make your 10 ohm resistor glow red, it'll do wonders with a 6 ohm nichrome wire
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[17:57] <Dan-K2VOL> you had better in flight
[17:58] Shuffty (~Shuffty@188-221-227-102.zone12.bethere.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[17:58] <W0OTM> Zuph: ahh, gotha, BUT a 9V alkaline will glow a resistor
[17:58] <Zuph> W0OTM: Well, then that same battery will glow the nichrome.
[17:58] <Zuph> Guess you have better 9V alkalines than me :-p
[17:58] <W0OTM> Zuph: An alkaline 9v won't, though.
[17:59] <Dan-K2VOL> then why are you talking about alkalines in the first place
[17:59] <W0OTM> anywho, Dan-K2VOL, I am not flying Lithium 9V anymore
[17:59] <Zuph> If a 9V alkaline will glow a resistor, then that same alkaline will glow nichrome (assuming you didn't kill it with the resistor). If it doesn't, you're doing it wrong.
[18:00] <Dan-K2VOL> what's the plan w0otm
[18:00] <Dan-K2VOL> well zuph, if the resistance is the same and the diameter is small of the nichrome
[18:00] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: I want to design a vehicle that will insulate a alkaline well enough
[18:01] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: alkaline are cheaper :)
[18:01] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: I get 2 cutdowns on a single 9V alkaline before its dead
[18:01] <Dan-K2VOL> that's certainly possible, but you'll just spend your money on insulation and heliume to lift more insulation
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[18:01] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: only use the resistor once though
[18:02] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: the resistor is pretty toast after about 15 sec
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[18:04] <griffonbot> @nearsys: No Pella launch, we have rain instead. Am now experimenting with photometers, possibly photopolarimeter for near space. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/58953772579303425]
[18:06] jcoxon (~jcoxon@cpc1-lanc4-0-0-cust720.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:06] <Dan-K2VOL> to try these things without wasting too many balloons, build a simple cryo chamber - just pile 10lbs dry ice in a large, very thick (3-4 inches) styrofoam box, meant for shipping foods/medical supplies, make a wood or cardboard shelf over it, put a wireless thermometer inside, and a computer fan next to the dry ice. place experiment on the shelf next to thermometer, and close lid tightly. turn fan on until temp is 40 to 50C
[18:07] <Dan-K2VOL> w0otm that will give you a good worst-case scenario test, i.e. no incoming solar radiation
[18:08] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:08] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: did you find me a link for a cryo chanber?
[18:08] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: pics or plans
[18:08] <Dan-K2VOL> the plan is in the text I just typed
[18:08] <Dan-K2VOL> they can be dirt simple
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[18:09] <Dan-K2VOL> there's pics on our flickr pool, but I'm at work and cant sort through them at hte moment, but they're at the beginning of our photos
[18:09] <W0OTM> ok, ill troll through them :) thanks
[18:09] <fsphil> hullo jcoxon
[18:09] <Dan-K2VOL> ours is pretty overkill though
[18:09] <W0OTM> maybe all do some cryo testing this weekend (since its raining)
[18:09] <Dan-K2VOL> and I do not recommend using a chest freezer, I'd just use all foam
[18:09] <Dan-K2VOL> nice
[18:10] <jcoxon> fsphil, no launch :-(
[18:12] <fsphil> jcoxon, afraid not. not this weekend anyway, as long as the predictions are good then it shouldn't be long
[18:12] <fsphil> I'm basically ready to go anytime
[18:13] <fsphil> I'll be putting together the 869mhz beacon this week, and will probably launch it and hadie on the same weekend
[18:14] <fsphil> I don't expect to get that one back, so it can basically be launched anytime regardless of predictions
[18:15] <jcoxon> shame - i was all set to climb up a hill to listen out
[18:15] <jcoxon> :-p
[18:15] <fsphil> well, unless it's heading out over the north atlantic
[18:15] <fsphil> I know! I'm disappointed too
[18:15] <fsphil> the saturday prediction improved and everything
[18:16] <fsphil> oooh easter holidays soon
[18:16] <jcoxon> launch then :p
[18:16] <jcoxon> hehe
[18:16] <jcoxon> just teasing
[18:17] <fsphil> I hope to :)
[18:18] <fsphil> actually no thats ages away
[18:18] <fsphil> forget that
[18:20] <jcoxon> hmmm now i've got a free weekend
[18:22] <fsphil> same here
[18:24] <fsphil> I'll make sure this thing is well tested though
[18:26] <fsphil> I suppose there's still a chance for sunday, but I'm not counting on it
[18:26] <Shuffty> No launch on Saturday/Sunday :-(
[18:26] <jcoxon> what you waiting on for that?
[18:27] <fsphil> getting someone who can drive after it, while I work the radio bits n' bobs
[18:27] <jcoxon> fair enough
[18:28] <fsphil> this is where having an actual team is good :)
[18:29] <fsphil> I might see if the cirrus guys are busy next weekend
[18:29] <jcoxon> yes i've wondered why a NI team hasn't formed
[18:29] <fsphil> I don't think many people know about it
[18:29] <fsphil> I'll have to publicise it a bit better
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[18:31] <Shuffty> How do you go about linking in with spacenear.us?
[18:31] <NigeyS> hey james
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[18:32] <NigeyS> fsphil, http://twitpic.com/4l7u46 shaaaaaaaaagi
[18:32] <fsphil> Shuffty, dl-fldigi will upload received data to spacenear.us (via rjharrison's server) - but it needs to know about the payload first
[18:33] <fsphil> oooh that's nifty
[18:33] <NigeyS> those desolder spikey tools are great, specially as rg58 has very soft outer
[18:33] <fsphil> looks like most of the braid survived
[18:33] <fsphil> very
[18:34] <fsphil> it just fell apart on me
[18:34] <NigeyS> i lost about 5 braids max
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[18:34] <Shuffty> I made my aerial by soldering crimp connectors together.. :-)
[18:37] <NigeyS> hey Shuffty
[18:37] <Shuffty> hey nigeys
[18:37] <Shuffty> :)
[18:39] <jcoxon> right a
[18:39] <jcoxon> cya
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[18:39] <NigeyS> meh just as i msged him lol
[18:40] <Shuffty> http://twitpic.com/4l7x5f
[18:40] <NigeyS> oo thats funky
[18:40] <NigeyS> mines similar, but it has balls
[18:41] <jonsowman> I'm liking all the pink payloads and related kit recently
[18:41] <Shuffty> Did you use coat hangers?
[18:41] <Shuffty> :-)
[18:42] <NigeyS> jonsowman, blame upu he started a trend! lol
[18:42] <jonsowman> hehe
[18:42] <NigeyS> Shuffty, http://twitpic.com/4l60ud
[18:42] <NigeyS> meh got 1 of those annoying head spinning things going on, you guys ever get that ?
[18:43] <Shuffty> http://twitpic.com/4l7ycs
[18:43] <fsphil> hmm.. since I seem to have some extra time before launch I may brighten hadie up a bit
[18:43] <NigeyS> ohh now thats something ive not seen before, a good idea Shuffty !
[18:44] <NigeyS> fsphil, acrylic paint, awsome stuff!
[18:44] <Shuffty> I love that... I have to sday I think I looked at that photo (or something similar) when trying to make mine
[18:45] <NigeyS> theres a few, jgraham, and upu, and jon have all done the same / similar design .. seems to be tried and tested well
[18:45] <eroomde> has anyone seen 'source code'?
[18:46] <NigeyS> a film Ed ?
[18:46] <eroomde> mmm
[18:46] <Shuffty> http://twitpic.com/4l7zin
[18:46] <Shuffty> last photo I promise.
[18:46] <Shuffty> :-)
[18:46] <fsphil> photos are good
[18:47] <NigeyS> yush!
[18:47] <Shuffty> :-) ... I have 100's of photos - thats pretty much all I do!
[18:47] <fsphil> is that satellite coax and an F-plug?
[18:47] <Shuffty> yes
[18:47] <Shuffty> :-)
[18:47] <Shuffty> :-S
[18:48] <Shuffty> Sat coax will work fine wont it? I have rg58 too, but it fit the f-plug better
[18:48] <fsphil> Not sure it's 50 ohm, but if it's only a short run it shouldn't matter much
[18:49] <fsphil> but don't quote me on that - do some range testing :)
[18:49] <Shuffty> I'll strip it out and use the other tonight..
[18:49] <Shuffty> just to be sure
[18:49] <jonsowman> the loss is fairly significant
[18:50] <fsphil> even for a short cable?
[18:51] <Shuffty> What about the copper core for the aerial itself - should that be of any spec?
[18:51] <Shuffty> http://twitpic.com/4l81j5
[18:52] <Shuffty> Where I'm at currently.. :-)
[18:52] <W0OTM> Shuffty: what band?
[18:52] <fsphil> ooh snap with the battery holder :) love those block ones
[18:52] <fsphil> 70cm, 434mhz
[18:53] <NigeyS> triple snap!
[18:53] <Shuffty> ?
[18:53] <Shuffty> lol
[18:53] <W0OTM> would it scale for 2m?
[18:54] <Shuffty> What were you refering to with "70cm, 434mhz" fsphil?
[18:54] <fsphil> Shuffty, the band
[18:54] <Shuffty> Ah..
[18:54] <Shuffty> :-)
[18:55] <fsphil> I assume that's what the question was anyway -- either that or what music you like
[18:55] <Shuffty> Sorry W00TM
[18:55] <Shuffty> :-)
[18:55] <fsphil> I guess all these antennas we're using would scale up to 2m. though the coax 1/4 wave would drive you insane separating out that much braid
[18:56] <NigeyS> lol i def wouldnt sit there doing 1 for 2m
[18:56] <Shuffty> http://twitpic.com/4l830n
[18:56] <NigeyS> i found it theraputic at first, bloody annoying after 45 minutes
[18:56] <fsphil> yay ft-790 ftw
[18:57] <Shuffty> :-)
[18:57] <NigeyS> \o/
[18:57] <NigeyS> yours should be here tomoz phil
[18:57] <fsphil> should be, if royal mail don't route it via shetland or something
[18:57] <NigeyS> with my adapters and whatever i ordered from farnell .. cant actually remember :|
[18:57] <NigeyS> haha prolly come via bangkok !
[18:59] <fsphil> tis a shame there isn't a small balloon that stays <2m that can get to a good altitude
[18:59] <fsphil> could launch it whenever
[18:59] <NigeyS> well. i was thinking
[19:00] <NigeyS> ihave a few bits here, and this locosys gps
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[19:00] <NigeyS> thats gotta stay below 18km so maybe a pico
[19:01] <NigeyS> could even launch that from the park down the road
[19:02] <NigeyS> jonsowman, do we know how high the mylar balloons go when fully inflated ?
[19:02] <Upu> evening
[19:02] <NigeyS> hey Upu
[19:02] <Upu> yes I am Upu and pink was my idea
[19:03] <fsphil> Upink
[19:03] <NigeyS> see what uve done, started a huge trend, you should claim copyright and charge us all lol
[19:03] <Upu> I should have got M6PNK
[19:03] <NigeyS> haha
[19:03] <fsphil> hehe
[19:03] <fsphil> well hadie is staying silver :p
[19:03] <Shuffty> I got the idea of pink from ava...
[19:03] <fsphil> sod you lot with your colours n' stuff
[19:03] <Upu> taken by a woman interestingly enough
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[19:04] <NigeyS> lol phil
[19:04] <Shuffty> But that said, it's the only colour gafa I have other than white.
[19:04] <Shuffty> :-)
[19:04] <NigeyS> i saw odd paint the other day ..
[19:04] <NigeyS> flourescent blue :|
[19:04] <Shuffty> I still think the sock idea has legs
[19:04] <Shuffty> :-)
[19:04] <BrainDamage> just go pink floyd https://dummidumbwit.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/pig_chimney.jpg
[19:05] <Zuph> Sennheiser, your wry German humor insults me.
[19:06] <Zuph> Don't ship me wireless headphones with a .5m cable on the transmitter, and tell me to move the transmitter at least 1m from the TV.
[19:06] <Shuffty> ;-0
[19:06] <fsphil> d'oh!
[19:06] <NigeyS> lmao
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[19:08] <Shuffty> Has anybody etched there own pcb's for a hab project?
[19:08] <NigeyS> i think juxta makes his own
[19:08] <fsphil> I've done a couple but not for hab stuff yet
[19:09] <Upu> I got one made by Olimex
[19:09] <Shuffty> How much did it cost upu?
[19:09] <Zuph> Shuffty: Nothing that has flown, but our ground support board is homemade. Our Cutdown and Flasher are also home etched, but not by me.
[19:09] <NigeyS> some nasty chemicals involved iirc ?
[19:09] <Upu> about £30 I think
[19:09] <Upu> got 2 boards at the same time
[19:09] <Zuph> Muriatic Acid and Hydrogen Peroxide
[19:09] <Shuffty> Hmmm - I quite fancy having a go...
[19:09] <Zuph> Not too bad, with gloves
[19:09] <NigeyS> oh yey, id order that and have mi5 give me a call :(
[19:09] <Upu> my dads garage still bears the stains from last time I did my own etching
[19:10] <Zuph> Muriatic acid is sold as a pool supply in hardware stores, here :-p
[19:10] <NigeyS> :o
[19:10] <Shuffty> :-)
[19:10] <Zuph> $6 a gallon, or so.
[19:10] <BrainDamage> you can use ferric chloride which is much less nasty than muriatic acid, but it has the problem that it stains, A LOT
[19:11] <BrainDamage> sodium persulfate also works, is pretty clean, but needs constant heating to be effective
[19:11] <Shuffty> Feric acid is the one I've seen used on youtube.
[19:11] <eroomde> i gave several ties with yellow splotches thanks to ferric chloride
[19:11] <Shuffty> :-)
[19:11] <Shuffty> lol
[19:12] <fsphil> I'm not sure what I'm using, but it's a completely clear liquid
[19:12] <Shuffty> For etching phil?
[19:12] <fsphil> yea
[19:12] <fsphil> lemme see if I can find a name
[19:12] <Zuph> You can neutralize muriatic acid with baking soda, which is why I like it.
[19:12] <Shuffty> I think seeing as your not launching tomorrow, I'll go and buy some supplies
[19:14] <Dan-K2VOL> as a more sobering note, the chemical name for muriatic acid good old Hydrochloric Acid
[19:14] <Dan-K2VOL> is*
[19:17] <Zuph> Sobering? You mean awesome, right?
[19:18] <Dan-K2VOL> heh
[19:18] <Dan-K2VOL> what's the concentration anyway
[19:22] <fsphil> heh, I found the sheet that came with the etchant and it simply calls it 'etchant'
[19:23] <fsphil> comes as white crystals, mixed in water
[19:23] <Dan-K2VOL> ha
[19:23] <Dan-K2VOL> do they not have to provide a Materials Safety Data Sheet for all chemicals purchased in the UK as in the US?
[19:24] <fsphil> I may just have lost that
[19:24] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
[19:24] <fsphil> I got it at Maplin though - they probably didn't bother including it
[19:26] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: I think pool supply HCl is like 6 molar.
[19:32] <BrainDamage> fsphil: it's probably sodium persulfate or amonium sulphate
[19:33] <BrainDamage> does it become blueish as it etches away copper?
[19:36] <fsphil> it does yea
[19:37] <fsphil> sodium persulfate sounds familiar
[19:38] <fsphil> I have it labelled on the container, will check it out later when I'm out in the shed
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[19:47] <fsphil> woo! found a little usb thing I've lost for about 4 weeks while searching for something totally unrelated
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[20:08] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: you busy?
[20:09] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: want a good laugh?
[20:09] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: I have a DVR of some local chatter on our simplex freq about Mexicans and looser white people. www.w0otm.com/201104061452-127069-7739.mp3
[20:10] <W0OTM> Dan-K2VOL: This is the reason I stick to productive parts of our hobby...
[20:12] <Dan-K2VOL> will have to listen later, still at work
[20:15] <fsphil> yikes
[20:17] <fsphil> and it gets worse
[20:18] <W0OTM> fsphil: unbelievable!
[20:27] <Zuph> Haven't heard anything quite that bad locally :-p
[20:28] <Shuffty> listening now...
[20:28] <Shuffty> W00tm - did you record this?
[20:30] <fsphil> nor here
[20:30] <fsphil> but then I don't monitor it a huge amount
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[20:32] <Shuffty> i love this photo! http://www.flickr.com/photos/fsphil/5367747739/in/photostream
[20:32] <Dan-K2VOL> isn't there some sort of poor behavior citation you can report hams for? I seem to recall receiving one for the SNOX balloon flights :-P
[20:32] <fsphil> lol Shuffty, it's all moved around a bit since then
[20:33] <Shuffty> :-)
[20:35] <Shuffty> hey fsphil - your jpeg DC-only decoder... what does it run on?
[20:35] <fsphil> Built with C, it should run anywhere. That screenshot is in Linux
[20:36] <fsphil> was a little test for the SSDV encoder to make sure I was decoding the data properly
[20:37] <Shuffty> my son loves ascci art.. keeps shouting me to come look at what he's made - he'd love that. :-)
[20:37] <Shuffty> *ascii
[20:38] <fsphil> I was amazed it worked to be honest :)
[20:41] <Shuffty> :-) still listening to the ham radio thing... this guy certainly has a big chair...
[20:45] <fsphil> ooh it's still going, I though it had stopped. was wondering why I could hear W0OTM calling :)
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[20:59] <Shuffty> When looking at components, how what does the mA part of "3.3V @ 75mA" mean?
[21:00] <Shuffty> Current?
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[21:00] <fsphil> yea, milliamps
[21:01] <Shuffty> ok... so the lower the mA, the less it'll drain the batteries/
[21:01] <Shuffty> ?
[21:01] <Shuffty> I know I sounds thick..
[21:01] <Shuffty> :-) hey ho
[21:04] <fsphil> sorta :)
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[21:04] <fsphil> the power used is a combination of voltage and current
[21:05] <fsphil> if you're comparing things with the same voltage, then yea a lower mA wil mean less power used
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[21:17] Action: NigeyS plays w0otm 's link
[21:17] <NigeyS> er W0OTM 's
[21:17] <NigeyS> fs
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[21:54] <W0OTM> LOL
[21:54] <W0OTM> what you think?
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[21:54] <jiffe98> anyone used one of those spot GPSes ?
[21:55] <jiffe98> wondering how reliable those might be for keeping track of a balloon
[21:55] <fsphil> without modification, not terribly well. at least not in the air
[21:55] <fsphil> from what I've heard the gps doesn't work above a certain altitude
[21:56] <SpeedEvil> People have hacked them though.
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> You can connect them to a micro, and use them as a really, really slow satellite modem
[22:00] <jiffe98> gotcha
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[22:52] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[22:52] <fsphil> yo yo
[22:55] <Lunar_Lander> today the door rang and I got a red package
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[22:56] <natrium42> http://nig.gr/5FR
[22:56] <natrium42> ?
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> no :)
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> one by sparkfun
[22:58] <natrium42> ah....
[22:58] <natrium42> so it wasn't as pretty?
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> well
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> it had customs stickers and stuff
[22:59] <natrium42> D:
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> and I needed to pay 8.84 euro
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> but was ok
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[23:00] <natrium42> krass, ist vom laster gefallen?
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> xD!
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> no it came by german mail
[23:02] <natrium42> normal
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[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> hi NigelMoby
[23:03] <natrium42> NigelMobyDick
[23:03] <NigelMoby> Hey kev
[23:03] <NigelMoby> Lol Ello natrium
[23:03] <natrium42> hi!
[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> NigelMoby I was insulted at the supermarket today
[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> morons
[23:04] <natrium42> at aldi?
[23:04] <natrium42> combi?
[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> edeka
[23:04] <natrium42> combi > aldi
[23:04] <natrium42> aaah
[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> they were looking for alcohol
[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> and when I walked by "did he at least stink?" "Kevin was his name right?"
[23:05] <NigelMoby> Oh dear, that's not nice
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/B000BOK5BE/ref=cm_cmu_up_thanks_hdr :)
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> Check last three images.
[23:06] <Dan-K2VOL> natrium42 what's with that url shortner
[23:06] <natrium42> touch
[23:07] <natrium42> Dan-K2VOL: it does produce very short urls! :P
[23:07] <Lunar_Lander> NigelMoby and the ratio was unfair
[23:07] <Lunar_Lander> was five vs. one
[23:07] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
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[23:08] <NigelMoby> Nice crack....
[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> I'm wondering if I should bother them about the sale of goods act.
[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> maybe I should have gone to the other aisle and called "Sergey, Dimitry, let's go"
[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> One should not expect a reasonably premium stainless product to die in a couple of years.
[23:09] <NigelMoby> Lol kev
[23:10] Nick change: Zuph_ -> zuph
[23:10] <NigelMoby> True speedy, especially if only cutting herbs
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> Well...
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> I have used it as a spoke-shave a couple of times.
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> I'm sure that's utterly unrelated though.
[23:11] <SpeedEvil> It's _really_ good as a spoke shave.
[23:11] <NigelMoby> Lol
[23:14] <Lunar_Lander> but NigelMoby
[23:14] <Lunar_Lander> my sparkfun stuff came
[23:14] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[23:15] <NigelMoby> Bout time
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> with a green sticker
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> two actually
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> one with the federal eagle and one with "8.84 euro"
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[23:17] <fsphil> the top of the sparkfun boxes that arrived here are usually buried in labels
[23:17] <fsphil> have to cut them to get inside
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> how do your customs stickers look like?
[23:18] <fsphil> all three got through without customs looking at them
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> my spherachutes chute also was there
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> and that time I had to go there to bring in the PayPal sheet to show them how much it was
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[23:32] <Lunar_Lander> jonsowman available?
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[23:49] <Lunar_Lander> hi Shuffty
[23:49] <Lunar_Lander> damn
[23:50] <Lunar_Lander> NigelMoby ?
[00:00] --- Sat Apr 16 2011