highaltitude.log.20110328

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[00:23] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: Now testing flight antenna in free space. Note 6 foot Tim for scale. Working pretty well #arhab http://t.co/g90L0Ps http://t.co/F3jZZaU [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/52163796382392320]
[00:32] <natrium42> \o
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[01:53] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: flight 1/4wav vert dipole in free space pales in comparison to 5/8wav car mount whip. any suggestions for better antenna? #arhab #hamradio [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/52186399922864128]
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[02:17] <NigelMoby> It's zuph!
[02:17] <Zuph> lulz
[02:18] <NigelMoby> Hey dude
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[02:29] <W0OTM> howdy
[02:30] <W0OTM> http://t.co/FzmForZ
[02:32] <W0OTM> http://yfrog.com/gzbkhgtj
[02:33] <W0OTM> http://yfrog.com/gz2iysj
[03:22] <Zuph> Welp, our sat antenna sucks!
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[07:06] <NigelMoby> Meh morning
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[08:05] <fsphil> not that bad NigelMoby :p
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[08:47] <Dooberry> morn.
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[09:17] <fsphil> tis that
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[09:19] <mattltm-alt> Hi :)
[09:21] <fsphil> ello ello
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[09:31] <Dooberry> what ever happened with that trans-atlantic attempt btw?
[09:31] <Dooberry> i've been off IRC / the radar for the last week
[09:32] <fsphil> they had problems with a gps receiver, and a sat modem
[09:32] <fsphil> but I think they're making progress on those now
[09:32] <Dooberry> ahh ok
[09:33] <Dooberry> ...and your launch?
[09:33] <Laurenceb_> can anyone here recommend a eps editor for linux?
[09:33] <Dooberry> no idea Laurence - i'm a Windows boy although not due to choice; more just out of laziness.
[09:33] <fsphil> my launch window opens up in a few weeks -- everything seems to be ready
[09:33] <Laurenceb_> kj
[09:34] <fsphil> I'm hoping to launch two -- still like the idea of the 'high and far as possible' launch
[09:34] <Dooberry> haha, unless "far" = taking it to Scotland
[09:34] <fsphil> nah, I'm thinking denmark :p
[09:35] <Dooberry> lol
[09:35] <Dooberry> who'd pick up the payload?!
[09:35] <fsphil> for this one, nobody - it's pretty certain to end up in the north sea
[09:35] <fsphil> but I won't have any cameras on it
[09:36] <fsphil> it's just a simple flight to see how high or far it can go
[09:36] <Dooberry> it would be ++epic if it drifted to Denmark though
[09:36] <fsphil> that would be fantastic
[09:37] <fsphil> or norway!
[09:37] <Dooberry> yeah, I was about to say that Norway would be more likely?
[09:37] <fsphil> though tracking it that direction would be almost impossible
[09:37] <Dooberry> I'm no meterologist, but the atlantic winds would push it more that way I would have thought?
[09:37] <fsphil> generally the winds seem to be south-east
[09:38] <fsphil> but mostly just east
[09:38] <natrium42> made an embeddable widget for the tracker: http://spacenear.us/tracker/embed-test.php
[09:38] <Dooberry> oh well, that's part of the run
[09:38] <natrium42> still some things left to fix
[09:38] <Dooberry> *fun
[09:41] <natrium42> nn
[09:41] <Dooberry> ooh nice natrium
[09:42] <Laurenceb_> aha inkscape
[09:42] <Laurenceb_> ooh this is sweet
[09:42] <Laurenceb_> proper gui based vector graphics editing for *nix
[09:48] <Darkside> what were you using before?
[09:48] <Laurenceb_> gimp
[09:49] <Laurenceb_> now i just need to work out the bazillion menus
[09:50] <Darkside> heh
[09:51] <Darkside> i just use omnigraffle on OSX
[09:51] <Darkside> freaking brilliant program
[09:53] <Laurenceb_> hmm stuck already :(
[09:53] <Laurenceb_> i need to edit an eps, i can import it, but its all one object
[10:01] <staylo> Yeah, no support for layers when importing from eps/ai
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[10:11] <Laurenceb_> ive got ti working now - id imported an eps i edited with gnuplot
[10:11] <Laurenceb_> gnuplto rasterises everything
[10:12] <staylo> ah :)
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[10:14] <Laurenceb_> this is very nice XD
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> 'It is likely that six or fewer Shillelagh missiles were fired at Iraqi bunkers; this appears to be the only occasion in which Shillelagh missiles were fired in a combat environment, from the inventory of the aforementioned 88,000 missiles produced.'
[10:16] <SpeedEvil> Fun
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[10:23] <mattltm-alt> Is speedball still having gps antenna problems?
[10:33] <fsphil> from the twitter messages it looks like they've identified the problem at least
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[10:51] <mattltm-alt> So the problem is that the antenna is crap?
[10:52] <mattltm-alt> I was thinking that they should try a cross dipole.
[10:52] <mattltm-alt> Since I guess the polorisation from the sat is circular.
[10:56] <Laurenceb_> what the hell - http://www.reghardware.com/2011/03/28/ipad_2_stronger_than_ipad/
[10:56] <Laurenceb_> how did they make it so flexible
[10:57] <fsphil> or a helical antenna
[10:57] <SpeedEvil> laurence: The glass is 0.6mm thick or something
[11:00] <Laurenceb_> yeah, but its got to be tempeted or something
[11:01] <Laurenceb_> some kind of laminate?
[11:01] <SpeedEvil> It's clearly laminated.
[11:01] <Laurenceb_> oh yeah you can see it shattering
[11:01] <SpeedEvil> I question if it's toughened
[11:02] <SpeedEvil> See that it doesn't have propagating fractures
[11:02] <SpeedEvil> Also - toughening a .5mm thick bit of glass would be challenging.
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> It's a very misleading test anyway.
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> I don't care about that test - I care about the similar one where it's a whole ipad on the little blocks being pressed on.
[11:04] <mattltm-alt> fsphil: A helical would work nice.
[11:05] <mattltm-alt> Or better still a qfh antenna
[11:05] <Laurenceb_> pity ipad is so lame
[11:05] <russss> SpeedEvil: see also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpbOoQpwAFs
[11:05] <SpeedEvil> It's not lame - ipad is pretty neat. HW wise.
[11:05] <Laurenceb_> yes, hardware wise
[11:06] <Laurenceb_> russss: hes not pressing hard enough :P
[11:06] <russss> heh
[11:06] Action: SpeedEvil idly wonders about a silly thing.
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[11:07] <SpeedEvil> ipad screen + broken n900.
[11:07] <Laurenceb_> lol
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[11:10] <Laurenceb_> toshiba ac-100 is pretty good
[11:10] <Laurenceb_> pity about the screen
[11:11] <SpeedEvil> Idly wondering, as the ipad is damn nearly the only device with 4:3 screen.
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[11:17] <Laurenceb_> heh
[11:18] <Laurenceb_> think ill try using inkscape for diagrams in future
[11:18] <Laurenceb_> its very nice
[11:18] <Laurenceb_> importing graphics from gnuplot as eps works quite well
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[11:22] <fsphil> it can also open certain pdfs pretty well
[11:23] <Laurenceb_> hmm yeah pdf editing XD
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[11:46] <Laurenceb_> http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL_v16/html/Shapes-Boxes.html <-nice
[11:51] <russss> hacky :P
[11:51] <russss> it's a nice piece of software though
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[11:55] <Laurenceb_> wonder if armadillo aerospace are finally launching their STIG yet
[11:58] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: but you're missing out on this - http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/postmodernism-generator/id379838784?mt=8
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[12:02] Nick change: Gillerire_ -> Gillerire
[12:13] <eroomde> hi all
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[13:07] <Dan-K2VOL> mornign
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[13:17] <mattltm-alt> Hi Dan
[13:20] <Dan-K2VOL> hi Matt
[13:22] <fsphil> all recovered Dan-K2VOL?
[13:22] <Dan-K2VOL> yes, I've finally caught up on sleep
[13:23] <Dan-K2VOL> SpeedBall-1 is still languishing
[13:24] <fsphil> uh-oh
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[13:26] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, see yesterday's tweets from me- http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar
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[13:28] <SamSilver> Howdy
[13:33] <mattltm-alt> Dan-K2VOL: Antenna problems?
[13:38] <Dan-K2VOL> indeed mattltm-alt
[13:41] <Zuph> Turns out, we suck at being RF engineers more than we suck at being other types of engineers :-p
[13:42] <GW8RAK> Afternoon guys. Reading the last tweet, do you mean a 1/4 wave vertical or a half wave dipole?
[13:44] <SamSilver> here is a great SA antenna http://zs4bfn.co.za/Antenna.asp
[13:44] <Zuph> GW8RAK: Our current flight antenna is a 1/4 wave dipole. We have a 5/8ths wave car mount antenna for ground testing, and it picks up sats a *lot* better than the 1/4 wave
[13:45] <GW8RAK> Do you mean a dipole with each element being a 1/4 wave, or a 1/4 wave overall length?
[13:45] <Zuph> Orbcomm documentation suggests a 5/8th or 1/2 wave. A quad helix would be best, but we *probably* can't spare the weight.
[13:45] <Zuph> Each element being 1/4 wave
[13:45] <GW8RAK> Okay Zuph. Just confused there. Is this for the downlink?
[13:45] <Zuph> Downlink and Uplink via the Orbcomm Satellite network.
[13:46] <Zuph> Sat -> Balloon is 137 MHz, Balloon -> Sat is 149-150 MHz.
[13:46] <Zuph> Of course, we might also be suffering from a bad SWR meter.
[13:47] <Zuph> Bad SWR meter measures our flight antenna at 1.1:1. Two other SWR meters (Both cheaper rat shack models) measure at slower to 2:1.
[13:47] <Zuph> s/bad/dubious
[13:47] <GW8RAK> Okay. The "problem" with a dipole is that it has a radiation pattern like a doughnut around the centre of the dipole. For this application where satellites are all above, half the radiation is wasted as it goes to the horizon or downwards.
[13:48] <GW8RAK> Could you fix a 1/4wave vertical and groundplane on top of your payload which transmits and receives from the horizon and upwards?
[13:49] <GW8RAK> The maximum of the radiation pattern from this would be upwards at about 45 degrees
[13:51] <Zuph> Well, that isn't too good either. Orbcomm documentation states that the best sat coverage is when the bird is between 25 and 55 degrees above the horizon.
[13:52] <GW8RAK> The 1/4 vertical will perform well in the range of 25 to 55 degrees.
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[13:54] <Zuph> Suggestions on the ground plane? Top of the payload box is 30cm x 30cm, and right below it sits all our RF sensitive electronics.
[13:55] <GW8RAK> The ground plane can be just 4 * 1/4 radials (= stiff wire) spreading out from the central connector. The ground plane will tend to isolate the electronics below it, from the radiating element above it.
[13:57] <SamSilver> the more radials the better > thin copper foil would work
[13:57] <SamSilver> weight a factor though
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[13:58] <Zuph> Right now, we're leaning towards a 1/2 wave dipole, due to the documentation from Orbcomm showing its performance.
[13:58] <Zuph> such an antenna would also work very well with our existing antenna mounting rigging.
[13:58] <mattltm-alt> Hoe about a cross dipole? What polorisation is the signal from the bird?
[13:59] <GW8RAK> With the existing dipole having a redundant 1/4 wave length long element, this would equate to 2 short radials, so the only weight gain would be other 2 radials
[13:59] <GW8RAK> Perhaps 30g or thereabouts
[14:00] <mattltm-alt> I would be tempted to try a phased crossed dipole. Works great for WX sat reception.
[14:01] <Zuph> mattltm-alt: Circular, but we get good results with a 5/8ths wave verticle ground plane for testing.
[14:01] <Zuph> Right now, we need a solution that we can bodge together with minimum time, effort, work and precision.
[14:01] <GW8RAK> But the wide frequency split will certainly cause mismatch problems. A folded dipole could overcome that, but you'd need "wide" elements, i.e. not wire.
[14:02] <GW8RAK> If you get good results from the 5/8ths vertical plus ground plane, why not replicate that?
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[14:04] <Zuph> We would if we could. The ground plane is a car roof. Unfortunately, we can't rig up multiple radial ground elements without reconfiguring our payload chain to ensure the antenna won't become fouled in our rigging.
[14:05] <GW8RAK> Just some short radials across the top of the payload box would be sufficient. They may not be the ideal length at about 51cm, but you can fit 42cm in.
[14:06] <mattltm-alt> A cross dipole will be good for circular polarisation.. Here is a link to a simple one.. http://www.west.net/~jay/turnstile.html
[14:08] <imrcly> i still say we fly the entire distance tethered
[14:11] <imrcly> that circular one would it work verticle over horizontal?
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[14:15] <mattltm-alt> I dont see why not
[14:16] <mattltm-alt> Depends on where the bird is in relation to the antenna
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[14:18] <Zuph> Potentially anywhere in the sky.
[14:19] <mattltm-alt> http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14182/img/14182_211_1.jpg
[14:22] <mattltm-alt> I would give it a go. They were origanly designed for circular polorised satalites.
[14:22] <mattltm-alt> Just make sure the correct circular polarisation is used i.e. Clockwise or Anti-clickwise.
[14:24] <mattltm-alt> Wikipedia has a good example of horizontal vs vertical mounting.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnstile_antenna
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[14:36] <griffonbot> @dbsnyder: Explorer Post 632 Flt 2011A was recovered, reached 89720ft traveled 90 miles (101deg) duration 99min #ARHAB will post link to photos [http://twitter.com/dbsnyder/status/52378472714207232]
[14:37] <SamSilver> Please look at this antenna http://www.sanav.com/gps_antennas/dbgca/au2-vhf.htm
[14:39] <SamSilver> GPS Antenna VHF Antenna > 1575.42MHz 130~150 MHz
[14:39] <SamSilver> duel purpose
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[15:12] <griffonbot> @dbsnyder: Explorer Post 632 Flt 2011A flight path http://bit.ly/ej31xK #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/dbsnyder/status/52387465314570240]
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[15:33] <Dan-K2VOL> samsilver that antenna looks nice, but requires a ground plane, (i.e. vehicle roof or large metal plate) not included and looks pretty heavy
[15:40] <Hibby> watching the footage from the stratHAB guys... looking sweet.
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[15:42] <SamSilver> Dan-K2VOL True - was thinking ahead . I am sure WhiteStar will come up with a lighter one for there flight
[15:43] <SamSilver> Hibby > save me the effort and please post link
[15:43] <Hibby> SamSilver: http://127.0.0.1
[15:43] <SamSilver> Thanx
[15:43] <Hibby> ;)
[15:44] <SamSilver> hmmmm
[15:44] <Hibby> ... that's your localhost ip... essentially, I'm watching an AVI on my office desktop...
[15:50] <griffonbot> @fourgreenis: I'm impressed. RT @dbsnyder: Explorer Post 632 Flt 2011A flight path http://bit.ly/ej31xK #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/fourgreenis/status/52397119067271169]
[15:51] <Hibby> they're going to edit it and stick it online, we were just having a brief chat about the progress of their project
[15:53] <SamSilver> Hiddy I look fwd to that
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[16:19] <Dan-K2VOL> did you guys get to use the track.whitestarballoon.com page while it was under load on the White Star launch attempt?
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[16:23] <Dan-K2VOL> wondering how it performed under load, I was out at the launch
[16:31] Action: LazyLeopard missed it, unfortunately.
[16:33] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah was rather late at night
[16:36] Nick change: Zupht0r -> Zuph
[16:36] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Talking about the website?
[16:36] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph yeah
[16:37] <Dan-K2VOL> haven't heard much from anyone who was watching the flight about how things performed, I guess that means it didn't perform irritatingly
[16:38] <Dan-K2VOL> though a few complaints on the slowness and crashiness of mibbit embedded
[16:38] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: FWIW, the servers didn't even *blink* under the load
[16:38] <Zuph> Under 10% CPU for all but the SQL. SQL fluttered between 50% and 0%, depending on where in the update cycle it was.
[16:39] <NigelMoby> I had track.whitestar up the whole time and it seemed fine.
[16:40] <Zuph> Mibbit problems are going to be problems with mibbit, I'm afraid.
[16:40] <Zuph> webchat.freenode has a better performance record, but is more difficult to use, and can't be embedded
[16:40] <NigelMoby> Along with about 12 other browser tabs mind lol
[16:42] <DanielRichman> Zuph: you could just iframe it, right?
[16:43] <Zuph> I suppose, although they might block attempts to do things like that.
[16:43] <DanielRichman> I thought natrium42 embedded it for a while; not 100% sure
[16:44] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph, I know the servers didn't blink, but that's not what matters in the real world, what matters is how the experience was perceived by the users
[16:45] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm not suggesting any changes at the moment, I"m just trying to get a feel for how it went for the viewers
[16:46] <SamSilver> got a thunder shower close by, gonna duck, later byeeeeee
[16:46] <Dan-K2VOL> ttyl sam
[16:46] <Dan-K2VOL> good to hear nigelmoby
[16:47] <Dan-K2VOL> did you have the ustream video up nigel?
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[16:48] <NigelMoby> Yup, it paused a few times but overall it was very stable.
[16:51] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Of course real world performance is all that matters. I only mean to eliminate one source of blame for poor performance.
[16:54] <NigelMoby> Hey zuph!
[16:54] <Zuph> Hey NigelMoby
[16:54] <NigelMoby> How you doing Mr?
[16:56] <Zuph> Heh, low on time, but caught up on sleep for once.
[16:59] <NigelMoby> Yey good stuff, sleep is good!
[17:04] <NigelMoby> Reading the list and Twitter, so it deems the sat issue is down to the antenna and not a modem fault?
[17:04] <NigelMoby> Seems*
[17:05] <Zuph> Yes
[17:05] <Zuph> Our 5/8ths wave with a ground plane gives us excellent sat coverage.
[17:06] <Zuph> Our 1/4 wave dipole gives us *marginal* coverage in free space, but crap on the ground.
[17:07] <NigelMoby> Ohh that's interesting, same problem for the gps? Antenna or....
[17:08] <Zuph> Haven't looked at that yet.
[17:09] <Zuph> That's my project for tonight.
[17:10] <NigelMoby> Bet ure really looking forward to that lol
[17:11] <Zuph> hah
[17:11] <Zuph> I'm hoping it's a loose wire or something :-p
[17:11] <NigelMoby> Just remember if it doesn't work you need a bigger hammer ;)
[17:13] <NigelMoby> I bet its something really simple but important enough to cause no lock.
[17:13] <Zuph> Yeah
[17:14] <NigelMoby> Always the way.
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[17:17] <Dan-K2VOL> well nigelmoby the nice thing is that our main payload GPS is working fine
[17:18] <NigelMoby> Well that is good news Dan.
[17:18] <Zuph> oh, btw, Dan-K2VOL, I finally got that Seeed studio order with their version of the openlog
[17:19] <Zuph> Supposedly, it'll do I2C
[17:19] <imrcly> awesome
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[17:19] <Zuph> also **finally** got those PCBs
[17:19] <imrcly> transformers are more voodoo black magic than hf antennas are
[17:20] <NigelMoby> BTW did ustream not archive the launch attempt video?
[17:22] <Dan-K2VOL> nice Zuph
[17:22] <Dan-K2VOL> haha imrcly
[17:23] <Dan-K2VOL> NigelMoby, it's unlikely. the guy who set up the streaming didn't do it thorugh the typical ustream broadcaster interface :-(
[17:23] <fsphil> it's a shame you can't have a local high-resolution copy with u-stream
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> you can.
[17:24] <fsphil> oooh
[17:24] <Dan-K2VOL> we could, just take more work
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> http://www.manycam.com/
[17:24] <SpeedEvil> or similar
[17:24] <Dan-K2VOL> we're already using WireCast, which does the same, I believe
[17:25] <Dan-K2VOL> need to enable that next time
[17:25] <Dan-K2VOL> how was the video NigelMoby?
[17:25] <fsphil> I loved the bit in the car -- worked really well
[17:25] <Dan-K2VOL> really! glad to hear that, I had no idea if it would come out
[17:25] <Dan-K2VOL> that was via Skype on the iphone
[17:26] <NigelMoby> Ah that's a shame but mm. It was good Dan very clear, a few pauses but nothing major
[17:26] <fsphil> must be good gsm coverage -- I doubt that would work here
[17:26] <Dan-K2VOL> could you hear the voice audio coming/going to us in that part too?
[17:26] <NigelMoby> Oh BTW
[17:26] <NigelMoby> In the car
[17:26] <Dan-K2VOL> well, it was good until it was gone on the car trip!
[17:26] <fsphil> the voice in the car was a bit quiet
[17:26] <Zuph> In the car it was skype to my *Android* phone :-p
[17:27] <Dan-K2VOL> it was Skype Video from my iPhone
[17:27] <NigelMoby> Ure number got broadcast brad
[17:28] <NigelMoby> Dan sorry not brad
[17:28] <Dan-K2VOL> the audio was using skype to brad's telephone phone part of his android phone
[17:29] <Dan-K2VOL> I was worried the video would be nothing but a mess with all the road bumps
[17:29] <Dan-K2VOL> we could hardly hear mission control in the car too
[17:29] <Dan-K2VOL> will have to bring headphones next time
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[17:30] <Dan-K2VOL> my number got broadcast nigel?
[17:30] <Dan-K2VOL> the one I spoke to ATC ?
[17:30] <NigelMoby> Also Dan, when it went to answerphone the msg got broadcast including cell number
[17:30] <Dan-K2VOL> I don't know when that happened
[17:31] <NigelMoby> Ahh, I think it was when Skype dropped
[17:31] <fsphil> I must have fell asleep before that
[17:31] <MrCraig> evening
[17:32] <fsphil> ack, there's a big bee flying about my screen
[17:32] Action: MrCraig hands fsphil a swatter
[17:32] <NigelMoby> I tried to mute it in mumble but it wouldn't work
[17:32] <fsphil> ah -- it actually found the open window
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[17:32] <fsphil> that's a first
[17:33] <fsphil> spring is definitely here
[17:33] <MNSP> hello all :)
[17:33] <MrCraig> hi MNSP
[17:33] <NigelMoby> Lol Phil
[17:33] <fsphil> hi hi MrCraig n' MNSP :)
[17:34] <MNSP> trust all is well
[17:34] <fsphil> long day, pesky time change
[17:35] <MNSP> lol, thrown me a couple of times... forgot to change my wristwatch
[17:37] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm looking at Quadrifilar helical antenna designs, has anyone made one?
[17:38] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: yeah, made one for listening to APT weather sats
[17:40] <NigelMoby> Evening Jon
[17:40] <jonsowman> evening :)
[17:40] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: what are you wanting one for?
[17:40] <MrCraig> evening jonsowman
[17:41] <jonsowman> evening MrCraig
[17:41] <NigelMoby> What's a quad....thingy?
[17:41] <MNSP> googled it just now
[17:42] <MNSP> very dapper looking
[17:42] <MNSP> I mean that in traditional sense of dapper not schoolboy
[17:42] <jonsowman> http://www.hexoc.com/pages/sgs-weather/satellite-receiver.php
[17:42] <jonsowman> towards the bottom
[17:43] <jonsowman> that's a 137MHz centre QFH
[17:43] <NigelMoby> Very odd looking thing
[17:44] Nick change: laurence__ -> Laurenceb
[17:45] <MNSP> look a bit like vertical wind turbine thingys
[17:45] <MrCraig> why are antenna so expeeeensive and yet wire coat hangers so cheap?
[17:45] <jonsowman> MrCraig: hehe, yeah, we looked at buying a QFH but they're silly expensive
[17:45] <jonsowman> so we built one instead :)
[17:46] <MrCraig> I don't know the acronym - but yeah constructing has to be cheaper with most as I'm learning
[17:47] <jonsowman> quadrifilar helicoidal
[17:47] <jonsowman> "QFH" is quicker to type :P
[17:47] <MrCraig> still bemused lol - I don't know a lot about the different types as yet, still some learning to do
[17:47] <NigelMoby> Much easier to say to :p
[17:47] <jonsowman> NigelMoby: haha indeed
[17:47] <MNSP> what were you thiking of making MrCraig.. am thinking about my first own Yaggi
[17:48] <Dan-K2VOL> jonsowman I'm trying to figure out how to get better received gain on orbcomm
[17:48] <MrCraig> Thinking of a Yagi too
[17:48] <MNSP> you seen the vid linked from ukhas?
[17:49] <MrCraig> yes
[17:49] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: right. not too familiar with orbcomm but the QFH is a pretty good antenna. I assume it's circularly polarised
[17:49] <MrCraig> the woman with a slightly irritating voice video right?
[17:49] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah Right Hand CP
[17:49] <jonsowman> yeah
[17:49] <jonsowman> we found them very good for listening to NOAA weather sats
[17:49] <Dan-K2VOL> but to fly on a balloon I've got to figure out if it can be made as light as a moth's wing
[17:50] <MNSP> yes mrcraig, she makes it look simple, but I watched it again last night...
[17:50] <Dan-K2VOL> while having higher gain than an equal weight dipole
[17:50] <MNSP> and theres a few things she says, that info is avail on net
[17:50] <MrCraig> *nods
[17:50] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: yeah we looked into this quite a bit a while back
[17:51] <jonsowman> they're not the easiest antenna to construct in a lightweight manner
[17:51] <Dan-K2VOL> and I bet the final decision was too heavy and too difficult?
[17:51] <jonsowman> that was part of it
[17:51] <jonsowman> we used eggbeaters instead in the end
[17:51] <jonsowman> have you considered those?
[17:52] <MNSP> now its not everyday you hear that in a serious conversation
[17:52] <Dan-K2VOL> I've heard of them, any suggested links? I'm no RF guru
[17:53] <Dan-K2VOL> ha MNSP yeah, that seems to be the case for alot of these balloon convos
[17:53] <jonsowman> http://davehouston.net/eggbeater.htm
[17:54] <Dan-K2VOL> like - "the freezer won't warm up beyond 50C even with the power off!"
[17:54] <Dan-K2VOL> (i.e. the dry ice-air circulation fan power)
[17:54] <MNSP> btw mrCraig, the chap I go tmy ft790 from recomended this chaps site : http://www.g0ksc.co.uk/
[17:54] <MNSP> he sells and provides free info too
[17:54] <MrCraig> thanks mnsp
[17:55] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: I'll try and get some more info on the eggbeaters we used
[17:55] <jonsowman> Matt_soton will know more
[17:56] <Dan-K2VOL> thanks jonsowman
[17:56] <Dan-K2VOL> do they work well without groundplane?
[17:56] <jonsowman> I couldn't say really
[17:57] <Dan-K2VOL> did they work on the balloons OK?
[17:57] <jonsowman> our receiving one was mounted on a car roof, which is of course an excellent groundplane
[17:57] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: yep
[17:57] <jonsowman> http://balloon.hexoc.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=17&pos=45
[17:57] <jonsowman> best pic I can find at the mo
[17:58] <jonsowman> payload groundplane was ali foil
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[18:00] <Dan-K2VOL> thanks johnsowman
[18:01] <MNSP> interesting pics jonsowman
[18:01] <jonsowman> MNSP: :), was from the first Apex payload
[18:01] <MNSP> raises questions... what is the average age of HABers (is that a word?)
[18:02] <MNSP> but perhaps more relevant is camera lens exposed or not?
[18:02] <jonsowman> I've no idea, I was 17 when benoxley, Matt_soton and I started Apex I
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[18:02] <jonsowman> MNSP: on Apex I it wasn't, but we've since learned that is a bad idea
[18:02] <jonsowman> Apex II has exposed cam lenses
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[18:03] <Matt_soton> the box of apeex I had foil on the bottom as a ground plane
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[18:03] Action: MrCraig is 32 2 days before launch day
[18:04] <jonsowman> Matt_soton: yeah
[18:04] <jonsowman> what design did we use for the ants?
[18:04] <Matt_soton> two loops seperated by some delay line
[18:04] <jonsowman> website etc?
[18:04] <Matt_soton> cant remember
[18:04] <MNSP> sorry jon I understand what you mean about apex 1
[18:04] <Matt_soton> there are sources
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[18:05] <jonsowman> I had a link at one point
[18:05] <Matt_soton> we made a quad helicodial antenna as well i remember
[18:05] <jonsowman> yeah we were talking about that :)
[18:05] <Matt_soton> that worked well
[18:05] <jonsowman> it did
[18:06] <Matt_soton> so you were
[18:06] <jonsowman> :P
[18:07] <Matt_soton> http://on6wg.pagesperso-orange.fr/Doc/Antenne%20Eggbeater-Engl-Part1-Full.pdf
[18:07] <Matt_soton> i remember using tha
[18:07] <jonsowman> yeah that's the one
[18:07] <jonsowman> Dan-K2VOL: ^^ see that link
[18:07] <jonsowman> thanks Matt_soton
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[18:09] <MNSP> looking at that reminds of something else... how many use radar reflectors?
[18:09] <MNSP> The one I wanted was a bugger to find, turns out they don't seem to sell them in uk
[18:10] <jonsowman> it's not a requirement in the UK (unlike some other places - US perhaps?)
[18:10] <jonsowman> I wouldn't bother if I were you
[18:10] <MNSP> yeah that was my understanding
[18:10] <MNSP> but am sure it asks if you do in the caa form
[18:11] <jonsowman> probably, has been a long time since I've filled one of those out, thank goodness
[18:11] <jonsowman> but there's no need to put one on
[18:11] <MNSP> lol, have a proper look at that was first thing I did when I got interested in this
[18:12] <fsphil> it asks, but I always just put "None"
[18:12] <MNSP> no, it was clear on their that it wasn't a requirement
[18:12] <MNSP> lol hello fsphil
[18:12] <MNSP> right dineer time...
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[18:13] <Dan-K2VOL> thanks jonsowmand and matt for link
[18:13] <Dan-K2VOL> it's not a requirement for the small balloons
[18:14] <russss> I suspect that adding a radar reflector will probably make the balloon more dangerous than not having one :P
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[18:15] <Dan-K2VOL> russss, I'm not sure what you mean?
[18:15] <russss> well, in terms of adding more bulk/weight to it
[18:16] <russss> I dunno
[18:16] <russss> I'm not sure how easy it is to spot a small radar reflector on plane/ATC radar anyway
[18:16] <Dan-K2VOL> if it's tuned for the correct frequency, it will show up fine. if not, it will not
[18:17] <Dan-K2VOL> they require it for the purpose of spotting it on radar, otherwise they wouldn't require it. It's only needed on larger balloons, and will be superseded by ADS-B (Mode-S) anyway when airlines get around to implementing it
[18:17] <russss> we have ADS-B in this continent
[18:18] <Dan-K2VOL> really
[18:18] <russss> http://www.radarvirtuel.com/
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> Surely just a large square of foil will work?
[18:18] <Dan-K2VOL> are all airliners outfitted with cockpit display of ADS-B traffic?
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> ideally a crossed diamond
[18:18] <Dan-K2VOL> SpeedEvil, yeah you need the corner-cube
[18:18] <Dan-K2VOL> for something this small
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> I suppose.
[18:18] <russss> Dan-K2VOL: I believe that it's a requirement for most commercial airliners
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> Or use my wacky idea.
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> A Al-foil balloon.
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[18:19] <Dan-K2VOL> it's not here
[18:19] <Dan-K2VOL> unfortunately
[18:20] <Dan-K2VOL> yet
[18:20] <Dan-K2VOL> the airlines keep lobbying to push the implementation date later and later
[18:20] <Dan-K2VOL> cause of cost
[18:20] <Dan-K2VOL> russss having the ADS-B transmitter and implementing the reception and display of traffic on the cockpit display are very different things
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[18:21] <Dan-K2VOL> I have much less use for the fact that airliners are implementing the transmitters, than I would implementing the receivers. I want my balloon to be received on the cockpit display when it's over the middle of the atlantic near an airliner
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[18:22] <russss> yeah I believe I read that all/most commercial airliners which are operating in EU airspace need to have ADS-B display by ~2014
[18:22] <russss> but I can't find a citation now
[18:23] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah that's not now :-)
[18:23] <Dan-K2VOL> it will be much safer to fly balloons with ADS-B transmitters than with radar reflectors
[18:23] <russss> it's a lot harder to get visibility into how many aircraft have ADS-B displays on
[18:23] <russss> :P
[18:23] <Dan-K2VOL> and they're low powered
[18:25] <russss> I think they have to get type certification for each aircraft so that pilots can use it for situational awareness
[18:25] <russss> and that's a slow process
[18:25] <Dan-K2VOL> ah
[18:26] <russss> http://www.eurocontrol.int/cascade/public/subsite_homepage/homepage.html
[18:26] <russss> not terribly readable
[18:26] <russss> but I know the ADS-B implementation is a lot further along in Europe than it is in the US
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[18:28] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, a lot of things are I think
[18:28] <Dan-K2VOL> one of these days I'm going to move over there :-P
[18:32] <Zuph> When Sarah Palin declares herself lord overseer of the United North American Plutocracy, I'll flee to Germany :-p
[18:33] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[18:33] <NigeyS> lol
[18:34] <Dan-K2VOL> hey you guys over there in europe - why don't we hear about any ambitions to do a trans-continental flight from europe to the Pacific?
[18:34] <Dan-K2VOL> or do the winds not support that very well
[18:34] <NigeyS> its kinda hard, we'd have to go the long way round :/
[18:34] <Dan-K2VOL> I mean cross to the other end of asia
[18:35] <fsphil> travelling over the north sea is about as good as we get :)
[18:35] <D00berry> Bloody hell - £29.99 for an Android phone, brand new off T-Mobile
[18:35] <D00berry> http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/pay-as-you-go/t-mobile-pulse-mini/
[18:35] <NigeyS> phil often tries to go over the north sea ;)
[18:35] <D00berry> (sorry for interrupting :p)
[18:35] <fsphil> almost got there too ;-)
[18:35] <Dan-K2VOL> ha nice fsphil
[18:36] <Dan-K2VOL> you know we'll have some leftover balloons after this season
[18:36] <fsphil> ooooh
[18:36] <NigeyS> Dan-K2VOL, me and phil are going to attempt a couple of flights to germany .. but non ZP
[18:36] <fsphil> non ZP but I'm thinking of ways to have it float
[18:36] <fsphil> something like jcoxon's idea of the pin-hole
[18:36] <NigeyS> that had been on my mind, pin-hole stuff
[18:36] <Dan-K2VOL> well we might consider selling extras here, depending on what the rest of the group wants to do
[18:37] <NigeyS> meh beat me lol
[18:37] <NigeyS> problem here is we have alot more land to cross
[18:37] <fsphil> That would be a very neat project
[18:37] <fsphil> yea, more countries
[18:37] <NigeyS> quite a few countries that prolly need avoiding altogether aswell
[18:38] <fsphil> I don't think there's such a thing as a europe-wide notam
[18:38] <Dan-K2VOL> nonsense, the ICAO says that if you're an Unmanned Light Balloon you don't have to ask permission of any country to cross
[18:38] <NigeyS> cant we stick a NATO sticker on it and just fly anywhere we want? lol
[18:38] <Dan-K2VOL> not sure about the notams
[18:38] <fsphil> good point Dan-K2VOL
[18:39] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd fly ADS-B over that much dense airways though
[18:39] <Dan-K2VOL> or a radar reflector
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[18:41] <fsphil> easier to put a reflector on there
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[18:42] <NigeyS> wonder how far a u.k launched balloon has gone
[18:43] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd like to do some research on getting cheap ADS-B transmitter built/bought if the agencies won't allow us to build, perhaps we can pool resources and buy a few to borrow out to groups when they want to fly.
[18:43] <Dan-K2VOL> this summer
[18:43] <fsphil> just googling for them -- I can't even find an expensive transmitter
[18:44] <fsphil> I think the ballast halo flights have been the most distant
[18:44] <NigeyS> ah yes
[18:44] <NigeyS> could be a project to kick off mattltm's hackerspace ...
[18:45] <fsphil> yea - not a one-man job that
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[18:46] <NigeyS> nope, we're kinda spread out a bit mind
[18:47] <fsphil> unless it can all be done over a manic weekend :)
[18:47] <NigeyS> haha that'd be fun
[18:48] <NigeyS> i can be T-boy ... bout the only thing i can do properly im afraid :P
[18:48] <NigeyS> http://www.lxavionics.co.uk/transceivers.htm
[18:48] <NigeyS> hmm
[18:52] <fsphil> oddly pricey
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[18:55] <NigeyS> definately not cheap kit
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[18:57] <imrcly> that thing weighs more than a package on a baloon can be
[18:57] <NigeyS> yup, it appears to be built to be somewhat indestructable
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[18:58] <imrcly> nm it is light enough
[18:58] <imrcly> maybe hack the box remover the screen
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[19:01] <NigeyS> possibly, power hungry little bugger though isnt it
[19:01] <imrcly> that lcd is probably most of it
[19:01] <imrcly> or atleast a significant portion
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[19:02] <NigeyS> true, heck of a difference in the idle and tx usage, from 150ma to over an amp :|
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[19:07] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[19:08] Lunar_Lander (~lunar_lan@p54882AA6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[19:08] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:11] <fsphil> I wonder if ADS-B needs a proper aviation callsign
[19:11] <fsphil> hiya lunar
[19:18] <MrCraig> hi Lunar
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> how's the life?
[19:19] <MrCraig> the life?
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> L)
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:20] <MrCraig> well I keep my mind on habbing and food
[19:21] <MrCraig> how about you?
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> mine too
[19:22] <Lunar_Lander> I begun a lab book to note all the stuff I do every day
[19:23] <MrCraig> That's cool - I meant to start one too
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[19:23] <MrCraig> I think I'm going to run out and take care of the second of the things I keep on my mind.
[19:24] <MrCraig> be back in a little bit sirs
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:24] <MrCraig> :-)
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[19:29] <D00berry> Anyone just see University Challenge?
[19:30] <Laurenceb> yes
[19:30] <Laurenceb> they were _fast_
[19:30] <fsphil> shall iplayer that later :)
[19:30] <D00berry> indeed. The girl from Cambridge was also pretty hot.
[19:30] <Laurenceb> lol
[19:31] <Laurenceb> in more ways than one
[19:31] <D00berry> Although she screwed up the astronomy questions
[19:31] <Laurenceb> 100 vrs 10^2 was a stupid point
[19:32] <D00berry> yeah, she got a little heated on that one
[19:32] <Laurenceb> i would have said 100 too
[19:32] <D00berry> She learnt a valuable lesson though...
[19:32] <D00berry> Don't mess with Paxman.
[19:32] <Laurenceb> heh
[19:34] <D00berry> Unfortunately my alma mater doesn't ever do too well on University Challenge
[19:35] <D00berry> (Aberystwyth)
[19:37] <Laurenceb> alma mater lulwut
[19:38] <Hibby> D00berry: they have a very active canoe club though :)
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[19:38] <D00berry> haha, I never knew that!
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[19:44] <Hibby> there you go. There are far better things to excel at than UC
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander> D00berry is that on youtube or so?
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil ?
[20:06] <fsphil> hi hi hi
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[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> I got news about the temperature sensors
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> we need to find out their heat capacity
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> and a friend of mine who also does physics suggested the following way
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> the sensor is heated in a box or so which is at 50°C
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> then, it is placed in a box at 0°C and subjected to an air stream of the same velocity as the ascent rate of the balloon; thus we get the time needed for the sensor to read the temperature
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil what do you think?
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[20:10] <fsphil> overkill? the temperature won't change that quickly
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> The time constant will depend on pressure too.
[20:12] <jonsowman> natrium42: pign
[20:12] <jonsowman> uh, ping
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[20:14] <MNSP> hello all :)
[20:14] <jonsowman> hi MNSP
[20:14] <fsphil> hilo
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil SpeedEvil yeah, need to go back to thinking for that
[20:15] <MNSP> lol, somebody said the other day we should all say High instead of hi
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[20:16] <jonsowman> heh
[20:17] <MNSP> I don't think that idea flew ;)
[20:17] <jonsowman> oh god
[20:17] <MNSP> Im pretty sure It wont take off either
[20:17] <MNSP> I've got more if you want them
[20:17] <jonsowman> I'm fine thanks
[20:17] <jonsowman> :P
[20:18] <MNSP> :D
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[20:52] Nick change: _ -> Guest99985
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[20:57] <mattltm> Ok, so new SSD or a Raptor?
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[21:05] <fsphil> do you need speed more than capacity?
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[21:07] <fsphil> also silent is very nice :)
[21:08] <MNSP> it was my last set of puns fsphil
[21:08] <MNSP> no one said a word since
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[21:10] Action: LazyLeopard fires a few peanuts at MNSP...
[21:11] <mattltm> OUCH! Watch where your throwing them!
[21:14] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[21:14] <MNSP> LOL yum
[21:15] <LazyLeopard> Must've been a rebound! ;)
[21:15] <MNSP> def.. Monkeys Never Spit Peanuts
[21:16] <Laurenceb> are whitestar ever launching ?
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[21:17] <NigeyS> think theyre pending GPS and hf antenna fixes laurence
[21:18] Action: NigeyS prods mattltm
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[21:20] <mattltm> Ouch! What is with you people!
[21:20] <mattltm> :0
[21:21] <NigeyS> lol
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[21:25] <NigeyS> W0OTM, nice trailer btw :)
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[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> hi W0OTM
[21:34] <Lunar_Lander> the "iHab-4" link on your site links to the i-HAB3 recap
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[21:38] <mattltm-mob> ah ha!
[21:38] <NigeyS> wb
[21:40] <mattltm-mob> I'm going to do that blade for you now.
[21:40] <NigeyS> ooo tyty
[21:40] <NigeyS> want a hammer ?
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[22:02] Nick change: mattltm_ -> mattltm
[22:02] <NigeyS> wb...again..lol
[22:02] Nick change: mattltm -> mattltm_mob
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[22:09] <mattltm-mob> ping NigeyS
[22:10] <NigeyS> pong
[22:11] <mattltm-mob> back up?
[22:11] <NigeyS> indeedy
[22:11] <NigeyS> ty sir :)
[22:11] <mattltm-mob> cool. I've put you onto an empty cluster.
[22:12] <NigeyS> i might get lonely !
[22:12] <mattltm-mob> let's see how it goes.
[22:12] <NigeyS> oki dokie, cheers for that Matt
[22:12] <mattltm-mob> no pros
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[22:13] <mattltm-mob> I like the dc at night.
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[22:14] <NigeyS> ah yes, nice and peaceful!
[22:14] <mattltm-mob> lol. the night team are playing gltron
[22:15] <mattltm-mob> on one of the clusters
[22:15] <NigeyS> haha they have to much free time tell them!
[22:15] <mattltm-mob> at the highest speed setting!
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[22:16] <mattltm-mob> that's mental.
[22:16] <NigeyS> i can barely play it at the low setting!
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[22:16] <W0OTM> Hello
[22:16] <W0OTM> sorry, was gone
[22:16] <mattltm-mob> right. Im going to have a go.
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[22:18] <NigeyS> hey W0OTM
[22:18] <W0OTM> Hey h ey
[22:19] <NigeyS> how goes it ?
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[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> hi W0OTM
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[22:32] MNSP (Mit@cpc1-lutn3-0-0-cust700.9-3.cable.virginmedia.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving... Bye for now :)
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[22:46] <MrCraig> fsphil
[22:46] <MrCraig> oh he left
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[23:00] <W0OTM> Lunar_Lander: howdy
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[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> hi W0OTM
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[23:13] <Lunar_Lander> hi juxta
[23:13] <juxta> hi Lunar_Lander
[23:13] <Lunar_Lander> W0OTM the "i-HAB4" link on your site leads to the i-HAB3 recap
[23:14] <juxta> on the laptop at the momentm I think my battery is about to go dead too
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> ohh!!
[23:17] Action: Lunar_Lander gets a Mr. Fusion for the laptop
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> here
[23:17] Action: Lunar_Lander fills it with trash and old beer
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> that should be enough for the rest of the week
[23:21] <natrium42> juxta, yo
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[23:22] <natrium42> D:
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> hi natrium42
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[23:30] <natrium42> hi lunar
[23:37] <W0OTM> Lunar_Lander: thx, fixed
[23:39] <Lunar_Lander> :) you're welcome
[23:41] <natrium42> sup W0OTM?
[23:41] <natrium42> any cool hacks?
[23:46] <MrCraig> night all
[23:46] MrCraig (MrCraig@host86-161-119-216.range86-161.btcentralplus.com) left #highaltitude.
[23:47] <natrium42> already?
[00:00] --- Tue Mar 29 2011