highaltitude.log.20110310

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[00:30] <natrium42> yo Dan-K2VOL
[00:36] <Dan-K2VOL> Hey natrium42
[00:41] <natrium42> all well?
[00:44] <Dan-K2VOL> Ugh
[00:44] <Dan-K2VOL> This satellite thing is going to kill me
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> wave then.
[00:45] <Dan-K2VOL> Its like the opposite problem of the Spot tracker - this damn Orbcomm protocol wants me talking to it all day long, setting all kinds of settigns
[00:45] <Dan-K2VOL> All the time
[00:45] <Dan-K2VOL> Am I on cam?
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[00:45] <SpeedEvil> (12:44:30 AM) Dan-K2VOL: This satellite thing is going to kill me
[00:46] <SpeedEvil> You mean it's not really suited to going to sleep for long periods?
[00:47] <Dan-K2VOL> I mean it's just got such a complicated protocol that every week I find one more thing we've failed to implement in the protocol, that it works without, but not necessarily for all of our flight conditions
[00:47] <Dan-K2VOL> Like tonight I discover that I may have to change the destination gateway address once we start relaying through any ground stations on the east side of the Atlantic
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[00:48] <Dan-K2VOL> It's making my arduino be robust, and I want it to be simple
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[00:50] <SpeedEvil> I suppose in a wayit makes sense if you want the satellites to be really, really dumb.
[01:05] <Dan-K2VOL> You got it
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[01:07] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm trying to think but have had too little sleep - any minds care to mull some pros and cons with me?
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[01:09] <Dan-K2VOL> It may help just to type it out, so I will
[01:10] <Dan-K2VOL> I've discovered that the short reports that we send position with are queueing up in the satellite modem until there's a sat pass, then they go out in chronological order
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[01:11] <Dan-K2VOL> However, the oldest positions are the most useful information for us to have after a long loss of signal
[01:12] <Dan-K2VOL> The latest position report is what we'd be yearning for
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[01:19] <Dan-K2VOL> However, the digi m10 currently does a fabulous job of queueing up reports and long messages
[01:20] <Dan-K2VOL> All I do it hand it messages and reports, and it takes care of queueing them in order, with short reports going out before long reports
[01:20] <Dan-K2VOL> Which is good
[01:29] <SpeedEvil> Can you overwrite messages in the queue, or maybe even power cycle to nuke the queue?
[01:32] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[01:33] <Zuph> We don't want to nuke the waiting long reports
[01:34] <Zuph> We can selectively nuke short reports, but then we have to keep track of all corresponding report IDs.
[01:37] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[01:38] <SpeedEvil> Any way of altering priority of messages in queue?
[01:38] <Dan-K2VOL> Good q speedevil
[01:39] <Dan-K2VOL> We can assign a different priority to the message, but only as we put it into the queue
[01:40] <Dan-K2VOL> But actually nevermind that, the priority isn't currently honored by orbcomm, it's only for periods of heavy satellite network load, which seems to never happen
[01:41] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[01:43] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm considering holding the latest position report in the comm controller, and not passing it to the sat modem until there's a satellite detected (the modem raises a pin for this)
[01:46] <SpeedEvil> Sounds sane.
[01:46] <SpeedEvil> Would that use lots of battery though?
[01:48] <Dan-K2VOL> eh, all the darn AVRs are awake 24-7 already, no one had time to implement sleep, though almost all do nothing most of every minute
[01:48] <Dan-K2VOL> Except the flight computer
[01:50] <khotchkiss> Can I ask why people don't build on Linux for such a flight?
[01:50] <Dan-K2VOL> Well, god question
[01:50] <SpeedEvil> Linux uses very large, and comparatively power and hardware expensive hardware/.
[01:50] <Dan-K2VOL> Good
[01:50] <khotchkiss> Just outta curiousity, it seems like a multitude of options are opened up, but I don't have any idea how much that all would weigh haha
[01:50] <Dan-K2VOL> Lol
[01:51] <khotchkiss> Possible a satelite chip even has a driver available?
[01:51] <SpeedEvil> There are no real 'satellite chips'
[01:51] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah it's mainly power and weight
[01:51] <khotchkiss> Gotcha.
[01:51] <natrium42> linox solves everything :D
[01:51] <khotchkiss> Solar power ever a pracitcal option?
[01:51] <SpeedEvil> Advanced linux systems which might suit are complex.
[01:51] <khotchkiss> Given that it could be correctly mounted, etc etcc
[01:51] <Dan-K2VOL> No, not for a flight this short
[01:51] <SpeedEvil> And hard to make, and expensive.
[01:51] <khotchkiss> Ah gotcha
[01:52] <SpeedEvil> For example - my n900 uses a comparable amount to an AVR, when idle.
[01:52] <khotchkiss> I've always seen myself using linux only because I have no lowlevel electronics exp
[01:52] <SpeedEvil> 2-3mA@4V
[01:52] <Dan-K2VOL> ah however your n900 has almost zero I/O
[01:53] <SpeedEvil> But to make a design based around the same CPU is really complex.
[01:53] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: It depends.
[01:53] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: USB, I2C, 6 GPIO lines exposed externally, audio, GPS
[01:53] <SpeedEvil> USB host too
[01:54] <Dan-K2VOL> but basically the reason we don't run linux is that we need lots of I/O, low level bus perhipherals (I2C, SPI), very low power, and very light weight. The size of the PCB is carefully eyed as a threat to weight
[01:55] <Dan-K2VOL> the balloon can only carry 12lbs, and as much of that 12lbs needs to be ballast as possible. Power requires more batteries, which eat into weight, and obviously a PC104 board is not lightweight compared to an arduino fio
[01:55] <Dan-K2VOL> And then you have cost
[01:55] <khotchkiss> Yeah that makes since
[01:55] <Dan-K2VOL> Gumstix springs to mind as the solution!
[01:56] <khotchkiss> 12lbs? Nice, where launching from?
[01:56] <natrium42> murrica
[01:56] <natrium42> :)
[01:56] <SpeedEvil> gumstix is really expensive though.
[01:56] <khotchkiss> "murrica" lol I didn't even get that at first
[01:57] <Dan-K2VOL> Exactly speedevil, you can get tiny low power, but you'll pay hundreds of dollars
[01:57] <SpeedEvil> We're _almost_ there.
[01:58] <Dan-K2VOL> For our flight computer, all the electronics (except sat modem) cost us no more than $60 (excluding modules like XBee and Digi Sat Modem)
[01:58] <Dan-K2VOL> I mean for all the 4 AVR driven PCBs that we custom designed
[01:58] <Dan-K2VOL> However, if you factor in man-hours spent, we're perhaps not coming out ahead on our custom designs
[01:58] <khotchkiss> The price is right there.
[01:58] <SpeedEvil> I mean - you can now get 32 bit 4*4mm processors now with 50K ROM, 50K RAM, with $few
[01:59] <Dan-K2VOL> khotchkiss 12lbs is an international regulation, your country may have chosen to hobble you there
[01:59] <khotchkiss> Thought USA was 6lbs?
[01:59] <Dan-K2VOL> But we're from middle USA
[01:59] <khotchkiss> The laws are written poorly
[01:59] <SpeedEvil> All they need is another few meg of either, and a MMU, and we're there.
[01:59] <Dan-K2VOL> 6lbs per box, 12 lbs total
[01:59] <khotchkiss> Oh? I wish they'd have written it that way.
[02:00] <Dan-K2VOL> Heh yeah not very clear. I think the ICAO is a little better
[02:00] <Dan-K2VOL> They give you a handy chart
[02:00] <khotchkiss> Yeah just as bad for moored flights
[02:00] <khotchkiss> which I wanna do soon, no idea if I am excempt or not yet, have to call notam office
[02:00] <Dan-K2VOL> Where are you khotchkiss
[02:00] <khotchkiss> Virginia
[02:01] <Dan-K2VOL> Oh nice, we're in KY
[02:01] <khotchkiss> Nice!
[02:01] <Dan-K2VOL> We'll be flying over your head on our way out to sea
[02:01] <khotchkiss> Over Lynchburg?
[02:01] <Dan-K2VOL> We'll have a strobe if you want to look for us
[02:01] <khotchkiss> I think I'd want to!
[02:01] <Dan-K2VOL> Likely, we're looking for a due-east route
[02:01] <khotchkiss> wheres your tracker/map?
[02:01] <Dan-K2VOL> ugh, it's in limbo
[02:01] <khotchkiss> It's all good.
[02:02] <Dan-K2VOL> Http://Track.whitestarballoon.org
[02:02] <Dan-K2VOL> Http://track.whitestarballoon.COM
[02:02] <Dan-K2VOL> Sorry
[02:02] <Dan-K2VOL> Google problems
[02:03] <khotchkiss> Haha a wee bit south of where I live, where do ya want it to land?
[02:03] <Dan-K2VOL> huh its actually displaying
[02:03] <Dan-K2VOL> That's odd
[02:03] <Dan-K2VOL> Oh it's NOT IN THE AIR
[02:03] <khotchkiss> http://cl.ly/57WN is what I see
[02:03] <Dan-K2VOL> This is test data recorded from a tennessee balloon group
[02:03] <khotchkiss> Gotcha.
[02:03] <Dan-K2VOL> We're in Louisville KY
[02:04] <Dan-K2VOL> Launching from Columbus Indiana
[02:04] <khotchkiss> I see that workin much better
[02:04] <Dan-K2VOL> Well, it might head your way
[02:04] <Zuph> SpeedEvil: We also wanted to modularized the design as much as possible. None of us really have any experience doing much development outside AVR/Arduino. In fact, I think Dan and I are the only ones with *real* embedded development experience.
[02:04] <khotchkiss> Have yet to see a HAB in va =D
[02:05] <Zuph> SpeedEvil: We were hoping to get more people interested by keeping it modular and on an architecture that people already knew. That turned out to not work so well...
[02:05] <Dan-K2VOL> I do believe it's a mighty rough road from Lynchburg down to Danville
[02:05] Nick change: gartt_ -> gartt
[02:05] <khotchkiss> Would be a long one.
[02:05] <Dan-K2VOL> On a line with a three-mile grade
[02:06] <SpeedEvil> Zuph: Linux still costs a fair premium.
[02:06] <SpeedEvil> In terms of hardware.
[02:06] <Zuph> Right.
[02:06] <Zuph> If we had gone with an ARM or something similar, we would have put a more minimal RTOS on it.
[02:07] <Dan-K2VOL> khotchkiss not ringing any bells eh
[02:07] <Dan-K2VOL> Or whistles
[02:07] <khotchkiss> I know where danville is, long drive for somebody w/o a car!
[02:07] <Zuph> In fact, if this program goes into extra innings, I might spend my summer redesigning our balloon computer with an ARM M3 and actually putting some not-hacked-together software on it.
[02:07] <Dan-K2VOL> Haha it's part of the song, Wreck of the Old 97
[02:07] <Dan-K2VOL> "Well it's a mighty rough road from Lynchburg down to Danville
[02:07] <Dan-K2VOL> On a line with a three-mile grade
[02:08] <Dan-K2VOL> It was down that line where he lost his air-brakes
[02:08] <Dan-K2VOL> You can see what a jump he made"
[02:08] <khotchkiss> SAYY WHAAAAA
[02:08] <khotchkiss> Never heard that one before.
[02:08] <Dan-K2VOL> a very famous old trainwreck folk song
[02:08] <Dan-K2VOL> http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858695731/
[02:08] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[02:08] <khotchkiss> Never thought somebody would sing of lynchburg or danville!
[02:09] <Dan-K2VOL> I used to drive steam engines before balloons. Well, you make a grisly enough disaster, and people like to hear it told over and over, and in the early 20th century, that'd be by song
[02:09] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL is probably the only person south of 50 that still knows the song :-p
[02:09] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[02:09] <khotchkiss> I
[02:09] <khotchkiss> 'm 18 haha!
[02:10] <Dan-K2VOL> Heh I"m only 30, but I keep my interests off the beaten path
[02:10] <khotchkiss> yup!
[02:10] <Dan-K2VOL> Being here, looks like you might too ;-)
[02:11] <khotchkiss> Oh yeah
[02:11] <khotchkiss> space program almost gone or whatever
[02:11] <khotchkiss> helps make hab really relevant
[02:12] <khotchkiss> heaven knows that somebody can rig a rocket to one, maybe put a tennis ball or the like in orbit
[02:12] <Zuph> Heh, getting off the ground is the easy part of getting to space.
[02:13] <Zuph> It's the extra 17,000 mph that's difficult.
[02:13] <khotchkiss> Yeah that's true.
[02:13] <khotchkiss> Well, air pressure is a little lower at 100k feet =0
[02:13] <Zuph> It didn't take a billionaire's fortune to start the first successful private launch platform for nothing.
[02:14] <khotchkiss> Yeah, sadly "privatization of space industry" didn't take off in my opinion. NASA had a good program going
[02:14] <Zuph> Didn't take off? It's taking off right now!
[02:14] <khotchkiss> Which?
[02:16] <Zuph> Lunar X-Prize, SpaceX, Armadillo, Orbital Sciences (arguably), Virgin Galactic, Bigelow Aerospace, I can keep going.
[02:16] <khotchkiss> I think they're getting closer, just long way to go.
[02:18] <Zuph> Long way to go to where?
[02:18] <khotchkiss> Space station.
[02:18] <Zuph> Bigelow Aerospace has two space stations orbiting earth right now.
[02:18] <khotchkiss> WHAT?
[02:18] <khotchkiss> never heard that!
[02:18] <khotchkiss> link!?!?
[02:18] <Zuph> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_II
[02:19] <natrium42> :)
[02:21] <Dan-K2VOL> Uh and Space-X is going to the ISS next year
[02:21] <Dan-K2VOL> :-)
[02:21] <khotchkiss> yup, I had underestimated these projects.
[02:22] <Zuph> To claim that the private aerospace industry is anything but absolutely booming is to supremely underestimate the difficulty of the task ahead.
[02:22] <khotchkiss> True
[02:23] <khotchkiss> Hope it becomes affordable within the next 50yrs.
[02:23] <khotchkiss> * for tourists
[02:23] <natrium42> more robotics plz
[02:23] <natrium42> they have been running experiments on human body since the 60ies
[02:23] <natrium42> it's getting old
[02:23] <Zuph> Hell, $8000, you can put your own satellite in orbit. http://www.interorbital.com/TubeSat_1.htm
[02:25] <khotchkiss> Several weeks of orbit? That could be really useful!
[02:25] <khotchkiss> and I have never heard of Tonga before.
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[05:39] <SamSilver> anyone have a wed site for Taylor University HAB launch?
[05:39] <SamSilver> this saturday
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[08:50] <earthshine> found my NTX2
[08:51] <earthshine> as is usually the way it was right under my nose all along
[08:56] <Laurenceb> lol
[08:57] <Laurenceb> clean your desk :P
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[09:11] <natrium42> Laurenceb: entropy isn't what it used to be...
[09:12] <earthshine> It was on my stairs, underneath my sat nav in a box
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[09:38] <SamSilver> later all
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[09:39] <Dooberry> and on that note, morning all.
[09:58] <fsphil> so it is
[10:02] <russss> ah that tubesat page has more detail now
[10:02] Action: russss wagers that the first launch will fail in some amusing way
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[10:16] <fsphil> as long as it doesn't land on my house
[10:17] <russss> so this is their spaceport http://www.interorbital.com/images/Tonga%20Spaceport%20Site%20Survey%20Small%202.jpg
[10:19] <fsphil> at least it's isolated
[10:21] <fsphil> eek, the diamond 70cm yagis have gone up £20
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[10:25] <NigeyS> James been on this morning ?
[10:26] <fsphil> nope
[10:26] <SpeedEvil> no
[10:26] <NigeyS> dam
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[10:50] <GW8RAK> Morning All.
[10:50] <LazyLeopard> G'day
[10:50] <GW8RAK> Who wrote the mods to fldigi to enable it to send data tot he server please?
[10:51] <GW8RAK> And was there any reason to choose RTTY as the "HAB" mode?
[10:52] <NigeyS> morning GW8RAK
[10:52] <Darkside> GW8RAK: reliability, to a point
[10:52] <Darkside> what would you use?
[10:53] <GW8RAK> I guessed that it was down to ease of coding. The reason for asking is that on a Picaxe forum, there's been a discussion about a guy wanting help with RTTY and he's on the right road now.
[10:54] <Darkside> i'm going to do with 'lol picaxe'
[10:54] <GW8RAK> However one of the other "contributors" was going on about some Hellscreiber program he wrote and how it was wonderful. His statements were full of assumptions, as are most peoples, but his assumptions were "not wrong".
[10:55] <Darkside> but i guess C doesn't float everybody's boat
[10:55] <Darkside> ok, hellschrieber has the advantage of being interpreted by a human brain
[10:55] <GW8RAK> Personally, never learnt C and am happy with BASIC.
[10:55] <russss> RTTY is nice because the decoder in fldigi is quite tolerant of frequency shifts
[10:55] <Darkside> which is great for sending text messages in bad conditions - but it would require a human to interpret lat/long coords and input them in somewhere
[10:55] <russss> drifts, even.
[10:55] <Darkside> with RTTY, everything can be done automatically
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[10:56] <GW8RAK> I think that is the bit he is missing. Hellschreiber is easy for an eye to read, while very difficult for a machine.
[10:56] <Darkside> yep
[10:56] <LazyLeopard> Yeah, I think RTTY was chosen because it's easy to do with the common hardware here. It's also dead easy to spot when you're tuning through the band.
[10:56] <Darkside> in this situation, we dont want to have to type in GPS coords every few seconds
[10:56] <GW8RAK> But he didn't let things like that get in the way of his assumptions.
[10:56] <russss> if you want something which is interference-resistant easy for humans to understand then morse is probably even better
[10:56] <russss> +and
[10:57] <Darkside> russss: its surprising how badly fldigi interprets morse code
[10:57] <LazyLeopard> Hellschreiber is a good eye-catcher, but a pain for actual data.
[10:57] <Darkside> at some point i want to try PSK31 from a balloon too
[10:57] <Darkside> LazyLeopard: hellscrieber is a cool altenative to morse code
[10:57] <GW8RAK> I've found a great difference between manual morse and machine generated.
[10:57] <Darkside> where you can just read the text
[10:57] <SpeedEvil> If you absolutely know the send speed, morse should be a lot more reliable. (than it is)
[10:57] <GW8RAK> I've used Hell a lot on HF and it works very well.
[10:58] <Darkside> GW8RAK: i plan on having a play with it once i et it set up at uni
[10:58] <Darkside> once i get an antenna set up at uni*
[10:58] <russss> isn't DominoEX the way to go if you want to get fancy?
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[10:58] <GW8RAK> For reading morse, both manual and machine, I've found that hardware TNC's seem to be better at it than soundcard free software.
[10:58] <russss> I think this is a contentious issue.
[10:58] <GW8RAK> Very contentious.
[10:58] <Darkside> russss: domino is pretty cool
[10:59] <Darkside> i've noticed fldigi gets a bit confused sometimes
[10:59] <GW8RAK> I've used Pactor a lot and with full error correction and high speed, it is very hard to beat.
[10:59] <LazyLeopard> Yeah, there's some fierce PSK/DominoEX rivalry out there. ;)
[10:59] <Darkside> i plan on running some short-range tests sometime this year
[10:59] <GW8RAK> Modes without error correction generally leave me cold.
[10:59] <Darkside> going to get a TX and RX station set up, a few hundred km apart
[10:59] <Darkside> and do some reliability testing
[11:00] <GW8RAK> But cost is the problem with Pactor is the cost.
[11:00] <GW8RAK> If you want to go beyond Pactor 1
[11:00] <Darkside> cost?
[11:01] <GW8RAK> £30 to £50 for a TNC with Pactor 1 and £300 plus for Pactor 2 and upto £750 for a fully loaded Pactor 3 modem
[11:01] <Darkside> bah
[11:02] <Darkside> screw paying for the hardware
[11:02] <Darkside> why can't it be done in software?
[11:02] <GW8RAK> But having acquired a new Pactor 3 modem for a very low price, I have to say that it is wonderful. Compressed data rates upto 8Kbps
[11:02] <GW8RAK> Not licenced outside the designers.
[11:03] <Darkside> bah
[11:03] <Darkside> i prefer the really slow ultra high reliablity modes anyway
[11:03] <Darkside> like JT6M, and the other stuff in the WSPR family
[11:03] <GW8RAK> Horses for courses. Speed is good.
[11:04] <Darkside> as a side-thing while doing my PhD, i'm going to be developing something that can be used on remote outposts to get sensor data back to a base
[11:04] <Darkside> i'm thinking of either developing my own slow mode, or using a WSPR-like mode
[11:04] <GW8RAK> Software and/or hardware?
[11:04] <Darkside> both
[11:05] <Darkside> output power is going to be low, probably <2W
[11:05] <Darkside> and the mode will have to be FSK-based, as my amplifier is *not* going to be linear
[11:05] <GW8RAK> If you can get good compression via a sat phone link, I know someone who would be very interested. Their sat phone bill is about £200K pa
[11:05] <fsphil> sorta on topic: slow-hellschreiber is massively brilliant when the signal is weak, but also inappropriate for hab-ing for all the reasons already mentioned
[11:06] <Darkside> i'm talking really slow data rates here GW8RAK
[11:06] <Darkside> like maybe a few bits a minute
[11:06] <Darkside> i'm going for ridiculously reliable over speed
[11:06] <Laurenceb_> Darkside: what are you working on for PhD ?
[11:07] <GW8RAK> That's a shame. They did have 6 simultaneous sat phone channels for 8hrs a night at one stage
[11:07] <Darkside> Laurenceb_: high resolution water vapour mapping using passive radar techniques
[11:07] <Laurenceb_> ah ionteresting
[11:07] <Darkside> in our case, DAB
[11:07] <GW8RAK> Isn't ridiculous reliability over speed the same as Royal Mail?
[11:07] <Darkside> which may mean I have to go to the UK for a while
[11:07] <Laurenceb_> oh nice
[11:07] <Darkside> you guys have a really nice single-frequency DAB network
[11:07] <Laurenceb_> where will you be based?
[11:07] <Darkside> in adelaide, we have one DAB tower
[11:07] <Darkside> Bath
[11:08] <Laurenceb_> ah yes they do lots of rf stuff
[11:08] <fsphil> haha, drop a stamped addressed envelope with the gps coordinates printed on them once every few minutes
[11:08] <Darkside> hahaha
[11:08] <fsphil> silly latency and packet loss though
[11:09] <Darkside> Laurenceb_: but yeah, in adelaide i'm working on using radar targets as 'fake' towers
[11:09] <Darkside> so i can look at the phase shift between the transmitter, the target, and the receiver
[11:09] <Darkside> and with enough targets scattered around an area, i can build up a water vapour map
[11:09] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[11:09] <eroomde> neat
[11:10] <Darkside> in the UK its a different kettle of fish
[11:10] <Darkside> you need lots of receivers to do a similar thing
[11:10] <Darkside> i aim to make a low-ish cost SDR which can take samples of data and push it off to a processing facility to work out the phase shifts, etc
[11:11] <Darkside> ideally < $1000 or so per unit
[11:11] <Laurenceb_> what frequency is it then? similar to FM?
[11:11] <Darkside> nope, in the UK its 220MHz
[11:11] <Laurenceb_> ah
[11:11] <Darkside> in adelaide its 204MHz
[11:11] <Darkside> the SDR side of the project is pretty interesting too - we use sub-sampling
[11:11] <fsphil> DAB coverage here isn't brilliant
[11:12] <fsphil> very low uptake on receivers too
[11:12] <Darkside> heh
[11:12] <Darkside> the other alternative, just as good, is to use DVB towers
[11:12] <Elwell> been AFK for a while -- did the transatlantic floater ever get launched?
[11:12] <fsphil> not yet Elwell, though it should be long now
[11:13] <Darkside> just with DVB it means the receiver needs to handle a wider range of frequencies
[11:13] <fsphil> I think they're just waiting on the jet stream
[11:13] <Darkside> DAB means single frequency - which means lower cost
[11:14] <fsphil> how wide is a dab signal?
[11:14] <Darkside> fsphil: approx 1.5MHz
[11:14] <Darkside> its not the bandwidth of the signal thats the problem
[11:14] <fsphil> it's actually wider tha nI expected
[11:14] <Darkside> its more that different DVB towers will use different channels, maybe separated by tens of MHx
[11:14] <Darkside> MHz*
[11:15] <fsphil> true
[11:15] <Darkside> is that what goes on the the UK? differnet areas have DVB stations on different channels?
[11:15] <fsphil> at the moment yes
[11:15] <Darkside> ok
[11:15] <fsphil> but there was talk of changing one of the muxes to use a signal frequency
[11:15] <Darkside> that would mean you'd need a receiver that can tune around
[11:16] <fsphil> but a lot of the old receivers can't handle the 8k mode
[11:16] <Darkside> which means a downconverted, which means more expense.
[11:16] <Darkside> with DAB, its single frequency - you can use a helical filter and an ADC
[11:17] <Laurenceb_> i thought that was the point of DAB
[11:17] <Laurenceb_> multiple transmitters on the same freuqency
[11:17] <Darkside> yeah
[11:17] <Darkside> they share a single transmitter - DAB is basically broadcasting a multi-channel mpeg2 stream
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[11:19] <SpeedEvil> Single Frequency Networks.
[11:20] <fsphil> too many channels unfortunately, the bitrate is appalling in some cases
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> yup
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> Some music stations are on 64K mono
[11:20] <Darkside> that doesnt affect my work :P
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> And it's not even mp3, it's mp2
[11:20] <Darkside> i dont care whats transmitter, heh
[11:20] <Darkside> transmitted*
[11:20] <Darkside> at the moment, we don't even demodulate
[11:21] <fsphil> well it's nice to know DAB has a useful function :)
[11:21] <Darkside> :P
[11:21] <Laurenceb_> i started a PhD working on atmospheric monitoring with GPS, but quit as it was a bit of a joke
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> Why?
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> Fundamentally infeasible, or not going to be productive for you.
[11:22] <Darkside> the UK met office use GPS-based water vapour sensors
[11:22] <Darkside> but they cost a shitload of money per unit
[11:22] <Laurenceb_> sitting in an office with no proffessional guidance
[11:22] <Laurenceb_> *spelling
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Ah
[11:23] <Darkside> the GPS based sensors just can't be widely deployed
[11:23] <Laurenceb_> its very demoralising trying to work like that - might as well work by yourself
[11:23] <Darkside> Laurenceb_: damn :(
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> Yeah. Sounds in principle like an interesting thing - but...
[11:24] <Laurenceb_> thats the problem with PhD, its not 'done for you'
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Did you end up doing the PHD thing?
[11:24] <Laurenceb_> you have to be very careful what you choose and how you manage your managers, if you see what i mean
[11:24] <Darkside> Laurenceb_: i'm pretty happy with my supervisor
[11:25] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: yes, I'm doing a PhD studentship at on medical optoelectronics atm
[11:25] <Darkside> and i'm slowly getting contacts in the DSTO (defence research organization)
[11:25] <Laurenceb_> Darkside: thats very important
[11:25] <Darkside> well my supervisor wrote a paper suggesting further research into what i'm woring on
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Oh - I thought that was actual work-work. :)
[11:25] <Darkside> hence why i'm doing this
[11:26] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: yes but its fun as well :P hence why im working on it XD
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> Progress on that?
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[11:26] <SpeedEvil> Or is it still rather manual as it was last you spoke?
[11:26] <Darkside> Laurenceb_: i'm looking forward to re-learning a lot of signal processing >_>
[11:27] <Laurenceb_> atm im trying to design some experiments to measure path length probability density function through tissue
[11:27] <fsphil> I got a book on signal processing once .. it was so above my head I didn't even hear the woosh
[11:27] <SpeedEvil> Sponsored by Kleenex(tm)
[11:27] <Laurenceb_> using laser coherence interferometry shineyness
[11:28] <SpeedEvil> The guy that invents books that you can know the stuff in them by eating them would get lots of cash.
[11:28] <Laurenceb_> -optical
[11:28] <Laurenceb_> heh
[11:28] Action: SpeedEvil pays for 300 quids worth of stuff from ebay.
[11:28] <SpeedEvil> _huuuuge_ pile of kingspan.
[11:28] <Laurenceb_> ah nice
[11:28] <SpeedEvil> Should at least get me started.
[11:28] <Laurenceb_> did you investigate xtratherm?
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> It's lots more expensive than the seconds stuff.
[11:29] <Laurenceb_> ah
[11:29] <Laurenceb_> are you going to dryline?
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> Vapour barrier, all that shizzle.
[11:31] <Laurenceb_> theres some online calc things for doing moisture levels and so on
[11:31] <Laurenceb_> iirc you are supposed to do that for building regs
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[11:33] <SpeedEvil> You mean air changes?
[11:34] <Laurenceb_> moisture permiability and temperatures of the wall
[11:34] <Laurenceb_> then you see if there are any points where moisture may form, iirc theres a set of internal and external conditions defined in building regs
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> I'm dealing with properly ventilating the cavity, which is annoying.
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> But with proper vapour barriering, it shouldn't be a problem.
[11:35] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[11:36] <Laurenceb_> i did unvented cavities and used the xtratherm as a vapour barrier
[11:36] <Laurenceb_> taped over the joints
[11:36] <Laurenceb_> i also had to have fire breaks behind around windows and doors- runs of phenolic foam
[11:37] <SpeedEvil> I'm basically taking the view that I'm not moving out of here in the forseeable future. And there are no schemes that really will help with insulation.
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> So I'm upgrading all aspects as far as reasonable.
[11:38] <Laurenceb_> yeah, you can probably avoid building regs
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[11:38] <SpeedEvil> With an eye to the regs, but not actually following them - as it would double my costs to hit the U value targets in all cases.
[11:39] <Laurenceb_> yeah they keep taking the U lower and lower
[11:40] <Laurenceb_> it gets pretty hard to meet
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> For example - I'm basically redoing the window-tops, with an extra panel to form a sealed unit. This gets about 80% of the way from single-glazed to 'proper double glazed with low-e'
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[11:44] <SpeedEvil> Interestingly, the nanogel aerogel stuff seems to be available for house cavity fill, so it can't be _too_ expensive.
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> I can't find a source insmall quantities.
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> That would be silly - but awesomely good for obscured windows.
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> It's ironic - the 'green deal' - is exactly what I've been arguing for.
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> However, as it needs to be professionally installed at perhaps 5* the price I'm doing it for, and it's paid back from your energy bills, I'd not save anything.
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> Whih is the primary point.
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[12:12] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: ping
[12:27] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: hi
[12:28] <Laurenceb_> hi there, im trying to use matplotlib
[12:28] <Laurenceb_> have you used it at all?
[12:28] <Randomskk> not really
[12:28] <Laurenceb_> :S
[12:28] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/42un4LTe
[12:29] <Darkside> matplotlib is scary to me
[12:29] <Darkside> i need to get the hang of it sometime to
[12:29] <Darkside> tho*
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> around line 280
[12:29] <Darkside> i want to do some live graphing with it
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> im getting very confused
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> i want to have an xtick for each second of data
[12:29] <Laurenceb_> its sampled at 35.9375
[12:30] <Darkside> i think i'm going to give up and do it all in matlab >_>
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[12:30] <Laurenceb_> at the moment its decided to stop scrolling properly and the ticks seem to appear at 1 seconds then move up in time
[12:30] <Laurenceb_> i havent a clue whats going on
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[12:37] <Laurenceb_> maybe theres some issue with floats vrs int
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[12:46] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/v0uTFGbs
[12:46] <Laurenceb_> works apart from flashing 500ms marks... very odd
[12:47] <Laurenceb_> oh well thats good enough for me :P
[12:47] <Laurenceb_> i dont understand line 278
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[13:01] <SamSilver> howdy
[13:02] <fsphil> hi hi SamSilver
[13:05] <SamSilver> waaasup?
[13:05] <SamSilver> helium?
[13:09] <fsphil> that, and rain clouds today :)
[13:09] Action: SpeedEvil has been outside screwing random bits of wood onto other random bits of wood to make non-random strutures.
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> wind->rain->snow->calm+sunny->wind+rain+snow+sunny
[13:10] <fsphil> take that entropy!
[13:11] <SamSilver> SpeedEvil can we take a stab at what them structures are?
[13:12] <fsphil> a boat!
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/
[13:12] <SamSilver> sat tracker?
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> Basically, I'm covering two sides of my house almost entirely in lean-tos.
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> So I can move the entirety of the contents out of one half, and then sort the insulation.
[13:13] <fsphil> ah - nifty
[13:14] <SamSilver> I thought the inlaws were moving in
[13:16] <fsphil> eek!
[13:16] <SamSilver> a boat is now sound like a real good idea
[13:16] <SamSilver> sounding
[13:16] <fsphil> your garden seems to be very high up
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[13:52] <m1x10> Hi all
[13:53] <griffonbot> Received email: daveake <caltekuk@gmail.com> "[UKHAS] Sample GPS Data"
[14:01] <fsphil> g'day m1x10
[14:03] <Dooberry> afternoon.
[14:03] <jgrahamc> afternoon all
[14:08] <SamSilver> Hi there welcome
[14:12] <Dooberry> argh, can't get motivated with work today at all
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[14:12] <Dooberry> my "flagged items" are just growing and growing...
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[14:20] <SamSilver> can anyone help with a conversion chart or site - i want to convert dBm > Watt
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> 1dBm=.001W
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> 10dB=.01W, 20dB=.1W, 30dB=1W, ...
[14:23] <SamSilver> thanx Speed - found this .> http://h-peters.com/dbmtomw.html
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> m = milliwatt
[14:23] <SamSilver> I was being lazy and using fourm as my search engine
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[15:24] <Laurenceb_> grrr
[15:24] <Laurenceb_> what could cause a pipe to appear empty for ages then suddently have loads of data
[15:25] <Laurenceb_> its like its filling up with several KB of data before releasing it :S
[15:27] <SamSilver> ages = milli secs ??
[15:27] <Laurenceb_> minutes
[15:27] <Laurenceb_> then about 50KB all at once
[15:27] <Laurenceb_> ill pastebin the code
[15:28] <SamSilver> FIFO registers
[15:28] <SamSilver> k
[15:28] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/MhEr53kr
[15:29] <Laurenceb_> lines 22 and 23, those have been tested from the terminal and they work ok
[15:29] <Laurenceb_> chuck out a load of data at a consistent rate
[15:30] <Laurenceb_> ppg.stdout.readline() on the other hand...
[15:30] <SamSilver> eeeek Python
[15:30] <Laurenceb_> waits for minutes then i get a ton off data at once
[15:31] <Laurenceb_> heh
[15:32] <Laurenceb_> i tried altering the bufsize, but no luck there
[15:36] <SamSilver> line 20 is doing what? = delay .... but in what format?
[15:39] <Laurenceb_> seconds
[15:40] <Laurenceb_> hmm i can kill the ppg process and the behaviour is unchanged.. odd
[15:42] <SamSilver> I am doing a lot of head scratching this side
[15:42] <Laurenceb_> heh me too
[15:43] <Laurenceb_> if i kill the ppg process i get the same bursts of data, but with the first string = ''
[15:43] <Laurenceb_> ie empty
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[15:47] <SamSilver> i have to run an errand but will be back shortly - i will run the problem in my subconscience
[15:47] <SamSilver> brb
[15:48] <Laurenceb_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/375427/non-blocking-read-on-a-stream-in-python
[15:48] <Laurenceb_> heh thanks
[15:49] <Laurenceb_> "select is also not useful in that Python's reads will block even after the select, because it does not have standard C semantics and will not return partial data. – Helmut Jan 27 at 14:51"
[15:49] Action: Laurenceb_ fails to understand
[15:49] <earthshine> Who's going to maker Faire UK this weekend?
[15:51] <Laurenceb_> http://docs.python.org/library/select.html
[15:51] <Laurenceb_> A time-out value of zero specifies a poll and never blocks.
[15:51] <Laurenceb_> grrr why doesnt it work then
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[16:08] <SamSilver> back
[16:09] <SamSilver> but none the wiser
[16:09] <Laurenceb_> ok, its reading between 800 and 1300 lines each burst
[16:10] <Laurenceb_> from accel
[16:10] <SamSilver> so it is time that is deciding when to dump
[16:10] <SamSilver> not KB of data
[16:11] <Laurenceb_> when i kill ppg, its around 409 lines
[16:11] <Laurenceb_> it should be ablout 2 lines, as accel churns out lines of data slightly faster
[16:12] <SamSilver> could you use the EPOLLPRI function to force it
[16:13] <Laurenceb_> it seems to me that ppg.stdout.readline() is causing delays
[16:13] <Laurenceb_> then accp.stdout has accumulated a load of data when program execution gets there
[16:14] <Laurenceb_> and ppg.stdout.readline returns immediately after that until the ppg.stdout pipe is emptied
[16:14] <Laurenceb_> almost like a sort of hysteresis
[16:15] <Laurenceb_> maybe its the way blocking behaviour is handled in python
[16:15] <Laurenceb_> it tried to read once, theres no data, so the process goes to sleep for a while....
[16:15] <Laurenceb_> but not for 30 seconds grr
[16:15] <Laurenceb_> this makes no sense
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[16:18] <SamSilver> *head-scratching and head shaking*
[16:19] <Laurenceb_> hmm apparently direct use of stdout isnt recommended
[16:19] <Laurenceb_> in the subprocess docs
[16:20] <Laurenceb_> Use communicate() rather than .stdin.write, .stdout.read or .stderr.read to avoid deadlocks due to any of the other OS pipe buffers filling up and blocking the child process.
[16:20] <Laurenceb_> but communicate waits for the process to quit :S
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> fflush?
[16:23] <Laurenceb_> how would that ehlp?
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> dunno
[16:24] <Laurenceb_> fflush in the child process?
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> I'm only marginally concious.
[16:24] <Laurenceb_> heh
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> I've been moving lots of tiles around
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> tiles are heavy
[16:28] <fsphil> yea, moved a few this weekend
[16:28] <fsphil> no fun
[16:30] <Laurenceb_> ah yeah
[16:30] <Laurenceb_> sys.stdout.flush()
[16:30] <Laurenceb_> fixed, thanks
[16:30] <Laurenceb_> in both child processes and it works
[16:30] <fsphil> hmpf .. it's snowing
[16:31] <fsphil> always remember to flush
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> Argh.
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> Mar 10 15:57:40 lily kernel: [253731.811805] journal_bmap: journal block not fou
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> nd at offset 29708 on sdb1
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> Mar 10 15:57:40 lily kernel: [253731.811814] Aborting journal on device sdb1
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> Makes me a sad panda.
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> (rootfs)
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> rsyncing critical stuff now.
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> hardware fail is annoying
[16:34] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/eMwi0.png
[16:34] <Laurenceb_> so pretty
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[16:35] <SpeedEvil> You're faking a bluetooth thingy from the video?
[16:36] <Laurenceb_> no thats a secondary recorder for reference
[16:36] <Laurenceb_> gui is in wxpython
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> interestingly on the screenshot i get x ticks at integer seconds, but theres glitchy 500ms ticks on the gui
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> ah
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[16:42] <spacefelix> Hey guys:
[16:42] <spacefelix> NASA Centennial Challenges has made it to hackerspaces.org: http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Centennial_Challenges
[16:48] <Laurenceb_> cya all
[16:48] <Laurenceb_> thanks for the help
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> Wave
[16:48] <spacefelix> Fire.
[16:53] <fsphil> water?
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[17:00] <SamSilver> g night all
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[17:05] Nick change: Zupht0r -> Zuph
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[17:20] <griffonbot> Received email: Josh Taylor <joshingwiththemedia@gmail.com> "[UKHAS] Follow my project!"
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[17:56] <mattltm> Hiall :)
[17:56] <khotchkiss> hola
[17:56] <mattltm> Ops :)
[17:59] <mattltm> Hola khotchkiss :)
[17:59] <mattltm> Como estas?
[18:00] <khotchkiss> Actually I speak english, but Que tal sounds right!
[18:00] <khotchkiss> Que pal?
[18:00] <khotchkiss> I zoned out too much in senior high
[18:00] <mattltm> lol.
[18:00] <mattltm> Muy bien. - Really well
[18:01] <mattltm> Buenísimo - Great!
[18:01] <mattltm> ¿cuánto hace algún tiempo loco con su cabra?
[18:01] <khotchkiss> ahora esta rainyo?
[18:01] jgrahamc (58d30f4a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.211.15.74) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[18:01] <mattltm> how much for some crazy time with your goat?
[18:02] <mattltm> That one got me in trouble in Cuba!
[18:02] <mattltm> :P
[18:02] <khotchkiss> LOL!
[18:02] <mattltm> I hate the rain :P
[18:02] <khotchkiss> I hear the french call people from spain "spanish cows" - funny hearing the insults of other places.
[18:04] <staylo> They call brits 'rosbifs' (roast beefs), must have a thing about cows :)
[18:04] <khotchkiss> <3 a good roast beef sandwich
[18:09] <Dooberry> coudl do with one of those right about now...
[18:09] <Dooberry> 'ola btw.
[18:09] <khotchkiss> The H is silent after all.
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[18:35] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:35] <Zuph> Evening jcoxon
[18:37] <jcoxon> hey Zuph
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[18:38] Action: MrCraig creeps quietly into the room and sits in the corner observing.
[18:38] <Zuph> Thanks for all your work. If this thing continues into next year, I promise to write a parser that puts data in robertharrison.org directly :-p
[18:38] <jcoxon> haha
[18:39] <jcoxon> actually this code will be quite useful for any non-radio telemetry
[18:39] <jcoxon> such as sms
[18:39] <jcoxon> Zuph, looking at the raw logs i think it worked last night
[18:39] <jcoxon> certainly stuff appeared on the mpa
[18:39] <jcoxon> map*
[18:39] <Zuph> Looks like it, even though I didn't think we were doing a test :-p
[18:39] <Zuph> (I had to stay home and work on my thesis)
[18:40] <jcoxon> hehe
[18:40] <jcoxon> pah - real life
[18:40] <Zuph> pah indeed.
[18:40] <Hiena> Hmmm, today's hindsight: If you are out of acidification component for your cookie dough, go for the muriatic acid.
[18:40] <jcoxon> Zuph, improving JS?
[18:41] <jcoxon> jetstream
[18:41] <Zuph> Ah, let me check
[18:42] <Zuph> Not really. Some marginal choices the 13th and 14th, but they'd have to improve pretty dramatically.
[18:45] <jcoxon> hehe i remember when you guys were going to launch in december!
[18:46] <Zuph> Oh, those were the days!
[18:46] <Zuph> Maybe if all of us were jobless and had a limitless supply of amphetamines!
[18:46] <jcoxon> haha
[18:46] <Zuph> Well, this is Kentucky, maybe the supply of amphetamines isn't so limited :-p
[18:47] <jcoxon> sims tonight?
[18:48] <Zuph> You bet.
[18:48] <Zuph> Hopefully Dan isn't too cranky :-p
[18:48] <fsphil> All work an no play :)
[18:48] <jcoxon> eek
[18:48] <fsphil> +d
[18:49] <jcoxon> tonight i'm going to do some crazy parastic nmea work on my SPoT transmitter
[18:50] <Zuph> :)
[18:50] <Zuph> I'm interested in seeing where that goes. Seems like the next best thing to orbcomm.
[18:50] <jcoxon> so natrium42 has one approach
[18:50] <jcoxon> which i can't get to work
[18:50] <jcoxon> so i'm going down my route
[18:51] <jcoxon> where i'm going to replace the gps module
[18:51] <jcoxon> with an arduino
[18:51] <fsphil> that's pretty bold
[18:51] <jcoxon> and then fake gps to send data
[18:51] <jcoxon> well i just need to cut one pin (the gps tx pin)
[18:51] <Zuph> I like it
[18:51] <jcoxon> and replace it with the tx pin from the mcu
[18:52] <fsphil> ah so it's just serial ttl?
[18:52] <jcoxon> yea
[18:52] <jcoxon> h
[18:52] <jcoxon> now the spot mcu pulls up a pin high when it wants GPS
[18:53] <jcoxon> so we'll monitor that pin with an interrupt
[18:53] <jcoxon> it pulls it high, the arduino gives it fake GPS
[18:53] <jcoxon> while its not interrupted the arduino just gets gps data passed to it via the main flight computer
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[18:56] <jcoxon> this is the perfect job for a seeeduino film
[18:56] <jcoxon> as it'll fit inside the SPoT case
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[18:57] <SAIDias> hello world
[18:58] <mattltm> Hi SAIDas :)
[18:58] <jcoxon> right bbl
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[18:58] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[18:58] <W0OTM> Hi
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[19:00] Action: fsphil got a new monitor -- everything's sooo wide
[19:04] <mattltm> What res fsphil?
[19:04] <fsphil> 1920x1080
[19:04] <fsphil> my old 4:3 died last week
[19:04] <fsphil> well, earlier this week
[19:04] <Zuph> Not a day too soon.
[19:04] <mattltm> Ohh nice :P
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[19:05] <fsphil> I've resisted the 16:9 screens for ages -- I didn't like them
[19:05] <fsphil> but I have to say when it's sitting here now, it's fantastic
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[19:07] <mattltm> lol
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[19:08] <StrayVoltage> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250785018514 <- Heh, cheap coax.
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[19:25] <MrCraig> happy bidding StrayVoltage
[19:28] <StrayVoltage> MrCraig: I fear that the shipping costs to where I live would be much higher than what the item's worth. :P
[19:28] <MrCraig> where do you live ish?
[19:28] <StrayVoltage> Norway.
[19:28] <MrCraig> ahh yeah, that'd be bad
[19:28] <StrayVoltage> ;)
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[19:43] Action: Laurenceb stabs a python
[19:46] <Laurenceb> i guess asynchronous interprocess comms is generally annoying
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[19:54] <mattltm> Shhhh!
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[19:59] <jcoxon> evening again
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[20:04] <mattltm> Powerpoles are a nightmare to solder!
[20:04] <mattltm> I need to get a better iorn
[20:06] <mattltm> Aha. that one was better :)
[20:07] Gnea (~gnea@unaffiliated/gnea) joined #highaltitude.
[20:10] <SpeedEvil> Pineapples are harder.
[20:13] <mattltm> Nom Nom :)
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[20:30] <griffonbot> @nearsys: I think the disseration will be on using BalloonSats to encourage interest in becomiong an aerospace engineer #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/45944531643932672]
[20:32] MrCraig (~MrCraig@host86-163-173-240.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving.
[20:33] <griffonbot> @Opinionatedcath: Wow !!Cal State Fullerton is 20-9 all-time against #SEC opponents #LSU #CUSF #baseball http://tiny.cc/l9i8f [http://twitter.com/Opinionatedcath/status/45945371142266880]
[20:33] <jcoxon> hehe
[20:34] <jcoxon> perhaps griffonbot should not allow anything with #baseball
[20:34] <jcoxon> as obviously CUSF is something else
[20:39] <mattltm> lol
[20:43] <jcoxon> ping natrium42
[20:45] <jcoxon> hmmmm i think that SPoT only provides power to the GPS when someone presses one of the message buttons
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> Seems unlikely.
[20:45] <jcoxon> thats what i thought initially
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> At least I'd imagine it'd want to maintain it in warm state.
[20:46] <jcoxon> i can only probe nmea stream once i press on of the buttons
[20:46] <SpeedEvil> I suppose a fairly cold state would work.
[20:47] <fsphil> the gps may have a battery power input
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> You ideally don't want the 5-10 min lock time from truly cold.
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> Also - it does do daily reports too doesn't it?
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> Have you looked to see if there are commands sent to it?
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> the GPS
[20:48] <jcoxon> i haven't let me see..
[20:48] <SpeedEvil> http://www.arrl.org/hr-607 - US proposing to ban 433
[20:49] <Randomskk> yea, I saw that on /., what are they thinking
[20:49] <Randomskk> not ban, sell it off :|
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> Well - post selloff it'll be banned.
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[20:51] <Hiena> Well, that was foreseeable.
[20:51] <jcoxon> $PNMRX103,GGA,1,GLL,0,GSA,1,GSV,0,RMC,0,VTG,0,ZDA,0*10
[20:52] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, so it sets the message rate
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> Do you have a datasheet for the GPS?
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> And can you measure current?
[20:53] <jcoxon> searching for that string i found a data sheet
[20:53] <SpeedEvil> :)
[20:53] <jcoxon> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCYQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stargps.ca%2FGPS-NX01-Manual.pdf&ei=yDl5TabxHsu1hAfE6e36DQ&usg=AFQjCNExU_v3cwlULo7KsNzE8ds4Oc0unA
[20:54] <jcoxon> its a NemeriX NS1030A
[20:56] <jcoxon> the fact that it sends this command when you press a button suggests to me that its a cold start
[20:56] <mattltm> Here goes... I may be about to brick a HTC desire :P
[20:56] <fsphil> good way of saving battery power
[20:57] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:57] <jcoxon> also as its a simplex tx'er you actually have no way of knowing if your message has got through
[20:57] <jcoxon> so it can take its time
[20:57] <jcoxon> looking at natrium's captured data it sends its boot data after a break
[20:57] <jcoxon> http://natrium42.com/projects/spot/
[20:57] <jcoxon> scroll to the bottom
[21:01] <fsphil> how long does it take for the message to get through, on average?
[21:02] <jcoxon> with a good sky view about 10mins or so
[21:02] <jcoxon> can be quickier
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[21:05] <fsphil> I guess the five minutes gives it plenty of time to get a lock
[21:05] <jcoxon> exactly
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[21:07] <fsphil> not a bad idea for a long-duration beacon
[21:07] <jcoxon> so now what i need to do is work out how to cut off the GPS stream
[21:07] <jcoxon> and replace it
[21:07] Action: jcoxon powers up a GPSbee
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[21:13] Nick change: SpikeUK_ -> SpikeUK
[21:15] <natrium42> jcoxon: yo
[21:18] <jcoxon> oooo
[21:18] <jcoxon> just in time
[21:18] <jcoxon> natrium42, so on the spot
[21:18] <jcoxon> does it power up the gps when it requires it?
[21:18] <jcoxon> thats what it seems to do
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[21:33] <mattltm> Phone dead :(
[21:33] <jcoxon> thats not good
[21:34] <mattltm> Nope. Dead Android :(
[21:34] <jcoxon> i was going to share my happy news
[21:34] <jcoxon> but i hold off
[21:34] <jcoxon> as we mourn your phone
[21:35] <mattltm> Thanks. I may have to cremate it.
[21:35] <jcoxon> not rescuable at all?
[21:35] Action: mattltm goes to find a gas torch
[21:35] <mattltm> I've tried 6 diferent roms
[21:36] <mattltm> The official rom gets right near the end then fails with a corrupt file error
[21:39] <jcoxon> i've just successfully transplanted the nmea stream from a ublox gps to the SPoT device
[21:39] <mattltm> Very cool :) Well done.
[21:40] <jcoxon> i must say it gets very upset without a gps stream :-p
[21:40] <fsphil> eek mattltm !! yay jcoxon !!
[21:41] <jcoxon> fsphil, now i have to real world apply this
[21:47] <mattltm> fsphil: Yup, eek!
[21:47] <mattltm> Sounds like O2 will replace it though.
[21:52] <Laurenceb> youre trying to resolder a rom?
[21:52] <Laurenceb> "mattltm goes to find a gas torch"
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[21:57] <mattltm> lol. No i'm going to cut my HTC in to tiny bits :)
[21:58] <Laurenceb> fair enough :p
[21:58] <Laurenceb> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/10/through_metal_comms_n_power_reinvented/page2.html
[21:58] <Laurenceb> ^interesting
[21:59] <Randomskk> you'd think putting ultrasonics through metals'd be obvious for comms (though admittedly power transfer less so, and its applications to submarines equally less so)
[21:59] <Laurenceb> yeah lol
[21:59] <Laurenceb> i was reading through the article thinking it was something really cool
[21:59] <Laurenceb> then ultrasound... so
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[22:19] <fsphil> some of the questions on hamtests don't make sense
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[22:20] <SpeedEvil> Such as?
[22:20] <fsphil> lemme get the one that confused me...
[22:20] <fsphil> Your callsign is 2D0ABC. Whilst on holiday at a friends house in England you should use the callsign
[22:21] <fsphil> A. 2D0ABC/P
[22:21] <fsphil> B. 2E0ABC/P
[22:21] <fsphil> C. M/2D0ABC/A
[22:21] <fsphil> D. 2E0ABC/A
[22:21] <LazyLeopard> D
[22:21] <fsphil> so you change the regional identifier?
[22:22] <LazyLeopard> Yeah. D = Douglas = Isle of Mann
[22:22] <fsphil> that's the correct answer -- didn't know that
[22:22] <fsphil> so in England, I'd use M6VIM?
[22:22] <LazyLeopard> Yes.
[22:23] <LazyLeopard> ...but once you're 2I0VIM (or whatever) you'd use 2E0...
[22:23] <LazyLeopard> Also, /A for an alternate location with a postal address, and /P for some random locatin the postie won't visit... ;)
[22:24] <LazyLeopard> ...whic is why B isn't correct ;)
[22:25] <fsphil> I picked A :)
[22:25] <fsphil> but I knew the /P was probably wrong
[22:26] <LazyLeopard> ...though the licence does use the word "may" rather than "shall" so, technically, you could leave the suffix off...
[22:26] <fsphil> that's right
[22:27] <LazyLeopard> however, it tends to be frowned upon, especially by older hams who're used to the old days when the licence said "shall" and you had to pay extra to use /M. ;)
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[22:30] <fsphil> I probably need to learn the resistor colour codes
[22:31] <LazyLeopard> Good idea ;)
[22:31] <LazyLeopard> Especially the weirder multipliers ;)
[22:31] <Randomskk> it's easy
[22:31] <Randomskk> there's a mnemonic
[22:32] <Randomskk> "bad boys race our young girls, but violet generally wins" for instance
[22:32] <Randomskk> is one
[22:32] <Randomskk> (you have to remember that the first b is for black, though)
[22:32] <fsphil> I've heard a few :)
[22:32] <Randomskk> you can make it racist and very very offensive with a few choice substitutions too
[22:33] <fsphil> I can probably remember that one though
[22:33] <Randomskk> I can just about remember that one, though I learnt it only after learning the much more offensive variant
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[22:34] <Laurenceb> lol
[22:35] Action: Laurenceb hasnt got a ham license
[22:35] <Randomskk> you can have mine if you like, I never use it
[22:35] <Randomskk> :P
[22:35] <Laurenceb> guess its overall worth it, but some/most of the stuff bores me
[22:35] <Randomskk> I suspect you know most/all the stuff
[22:35] <Randomskk> and the pass mark is low enough that you can just forget about the rest
[22:36] <Randomskk> licensing conditions and ionosphere propagation involve remembering loads of useless crap (debatable I guess)
[22:36] <Randomskk> but you can get all those questions wrong (or rather, 25% multiple choice average) and still pass
[22:37] <fsphil> the pass mark is really low
[22:37] <Randomskk> srsly
[22:37] <fsphil> the examiner was moaning about it :)
[22:37] <Laurenceb> ok, not bad
[22:38] <Laurenceb> do you have to be affiliated with a club?
[22:39] <Randomskk> no
[22:39] <LazyLeopard> The evening I took my Intermediate there were two others also taking it. If all the wrong answers we gave had been on one paper it still wouldn't have failed...
[22:40] <Laurenceb> ok, that would have been annoying
[22:40] <Randomskk> it was ridiculous
[22:40] <Randomskk> it's like 40% or something
[22:40] <Randomskk> no one in CUWS history has failed the foundation
[22:40] <LazyLeopard> The tedious bit with the Foundation and Intermediate is getting the practical bits signed off...
[22:40] <Randomskk> going back a good time
[22:41] <Randomskk> 1932ish
[22:41] <Laurenceb> what license do you need to be able to do nice stuff like high wattages of 434mhz?
[22:41] <Randomskk> well, I say that. we haven't had foundation exams that long :P
[22:41] <Randomskk> ideally full I guess
[22:41] <Randomskk> foundation is like, 1W? or is it 5W
[22:42] <jcoxon> 10
[22:43] <Laurenceb> not bad
[22:43] <fsphil> intermediate is 50
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[22:44] <Randomskk> https://services.ofcom.org.uk/amateur-terms.pdf
[22:44] <Randomskk> scroll down to Table A for foundation, etc
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[22:45] <Randomskk> on 434, we're talking 10W e.r.p. for foundation, 40W e.r.p. for intermediate, same again for full
[22:45] Nick change: spacefelix_ -> spacefelix
[22:45] <fsphil> plus with the intermediate, you get to build your own transmitters and play about in the microwave bands
[22:45] <Randomskk> wait, sorry, misread a little bit
[22:45] <Randomskk> 434-434 is 400W for full
[22:45] <Randomskk> and 50W for intermediate
[22:45] <fsphil> 400w is a *lot* of RF
[22:45] <Randomskk> 431-432 is the 40W e.r.p.
[22:46] <Randomskk> yes
[22:46] <Randomskk> yes it is
[22:46] <Randomskk> and those are all PEPs
[22:46] <LazyLeopard> Mostly 10W for foundation, mostly 50W for Intermediate, and mostly 400W for full, but some bands (6 and 4 metres and parts of 70cms, for instance) have loerw limits.
[22:46] <Randomskk> which they define as "Peak envelope power is the average power supplied to the antenna by a transmitter
[22:46] <Randomskk> during one radio frequency cycle at the crest of the modulation envelope taken under normal
[22:46] <Randomskk> operating conditions."
[22:49] <Laurenceb> surely you can make a mini death ray with 400W
[22:50] <LazyLeopard> Hmmm... and part of top band is 32W
[22:50] <jcoxon> mwhahahahaha
[22:50] <jcoxon> http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=02vhBoDslO1BaEqCUR9sUikleajn0x2u4
[22:50] <jcoxon> fake GPS
[22:50] <jcoxon> hahahahahaha
[22:50] <jcoxon> see point 5
[22:51] <fsphil> sweet
[22:52] <natrium42> jcoxon: ooh, awesome
[22:52] <natrium42> jcoxon: so what was the problem?
[22:52] <jcoxon> so i've done my own method
[22:52] <jcoxon> i've cut a trace - disconnecting the gps from the mcu
[22:53] Action: Laurenceb doesnt understand
[22:53] <Laurenceb> oh so you inject data?
[22:53] <Laurenceb> nice
[22:53] <jcoxon> and i have an arduino monitoring TP23
[22:53] <Laurenceb> sweet
[22:53] <fsphil> that's proper hacking
[22:53] <natrium42> jcoxon: just the TX trace from GPS?
[22:53] <natrium42> don't need the RX trace, eh?
[22:53] <jcoxon> if it is HIGH it then sends an nmea stream over serial to Tx
[22:54] <jcoxon> TX being TP20
[22:54] <jcoxon> currently its just printing 2 nmea strings at 1hz
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if they have any filters to find abnormal spots
[22:54] <natrium42> awesome
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> For example, ones flying:mach 1
[22:54] <natrium42> SpeedEvil: as long as we keep it low profile...
[22:54] <natrium42> :P
[22:55] <jcoxon> so now i can get my flight computer to pass the position to the SPoT arduino
[22:55] <jcoxon> which it can convert to nmea and when required send it to the SPoT
[22:55] <jcoxon> also we can encode altitude in latitude
[22:55] <jcoxon> if we have it as km
[22:56] <jcoxon> e.g. 20.0001 latitude = 20km
[22:58] <jcoxon> glad that worked as i wasn't enjoying hacking up a ?100 device
[22:59] <jcoxon> the only other wire to add is to trigger a OK message
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[23:02] <jcoxon> actually my flight computer could do the job itself
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[23:02] <natrium42> yeah, less power consumption
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[23:03] <jcoxon> i'm thinking that power cycling isn't really needed
[23:03] <natrium42> use OK and HELP messages
[23:03] <natrium42> don't even need tracking
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[23:05] <jcoxon> interestingly on powerup the SPoT looks for some nmea
[23:05] <jcoxon> if it gets some it'll continue to boot up
[23:06] <natrium42> probably a sanity check
[23:06] <jcoxon> yeah
[23:07] <natrium42> so it doesn't need
[23:07] <natrium42> $PNMRX600,0,NemeriX NS1030A, SW Release Version 4.0.14_PROD, Welcome On Board! *0
[23:07] <natrium42> ?
[23:07] <jcoxon> its working without that
[23:07] <natrium42> kk
[23:07] <jcoxon> i'm just doing this
[23:07] <natrium42> good job :)
[23:07] <jcoxon> Serial.println("$GPGGA,123519,4807.038,N,01131.000,E,1,08,0.9,545.4,M,46.9,M,,*47");
[23:07] <jcoxon> Serial.println("$GPGSA,A,3,04,05,,09,12,,,24,,,,,2.5,1.3,2.1*39");
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[23:08] <jcoxon> with a delay of 1 second after the strings
[23:08] <jcoxon> in a while loop reading the SEL1 pin
[23:08] <natrium42> it sends every message 3 times btw
[23:08] <jcoxon> super simple
[23:08] <jcoxon> yeah
[23:08] <jcoxon> once its got its GPS data it doesn't look again
[23:09] <natrium42> oh, but HELP is sent once
[23:10] <natrium42> but repeated all the time a la tracking
[23:10] <natrium42> but you could work the buttons
[23:10] <jcoxon> that was my plan
[23:10] <natrium42> :)
[23:11] <jcoxon> we could just send OK messages and just decode the altitude from it
[23:12] <jcoxon> wow
[23:12] <jcoxon> it just tx'ed from inside my room
[23:13] <jcoxon> i get no GPS signal in here
[23:14] <natrium42> :D
[23:14] <natrium42> see how much the built-in gps sucks?
[23:14] <jcoxon> oh yes
[23:14] <jcoxon> that must be the limiting factor with these devices
[23:14] <jcoxon> right - no more hardware hacking tonight
[23:15] <jcoxon> i'll break it if i try any mor
[23:15] <jcoxon> e
[23:15] <natrium42> but cool, maybe your way to hack it is better
[23:15] <natrium42> no decreased performance with the satellite tx
[23:16] <jcoxon> natrium42, i couldn't have done it without all your schematics
[23:16] <jcoxon> got 3 screens on my desk showing all those images
[23:16] <jcoxon> :-p
[23:16] <natrium42> team effort!
[23:16] <natrium42> bbl, coffee shop
[23:16] <jcoxon> cya
[23:24] <jcoxon> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBjOIjc5qn0&feature=player_embedded
[23:24] <jcoxon> awesome
[23:30] <jcoxon> night all
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[00:00] --- Fri Mar 11 2011