highaltitude.log.20110207

[00:09] <NigeyS> That is, the voltage is proportional to the inverse of the photocell resistance which is, in turn, inversely proportional to light levels
[00:09] <NigeyS> anyone care to translate into english? :|
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> CdS photocells?
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> Darker = higher resistance
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> It's not linear
[00:16] <NigeyS> yeah photocells, trying to work out the resistor value im better off with running from 3.3 as opposed to 5v with a 10k
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[05:48] <Darkside> juxta: ping
[05:49] <Darkside> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=1b234146d7e61afc7952308e2442baad58fe3e29
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[05:56] <psi_> Hello there.
[05:57] <Darkside> hi
[05:58] <psi_> Hi, i've just seen the web page at http://spacenear.us/tracker/. And I'm looking to do my first HAB.
[05:58] <psi_> Is that page open source? Is there a place to go to find out all I need to know about HAB?
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[05:59] <Darkside> psi_: there are a few ways to use that website
[05:59] <Darkside> as in, you can use dl-fldigi to upload your payloads data to that website
[05:59] <Darkside> what country are you in, if you don't mind me asking
[06:00] <Dan-K2VOL> Also check out arhab.org
[06:01] <Dan-K2VOL> Darkside, we're still running that cryo test, now into about hour 27
[06:01] <Darkside> cool Dan-K2VOL
[06:01] <Darkside> very cool :)
[06:08] <psi_> Hi Darkside, I'm in Australia. I was thinking of making a small site like that untill.... I fgound that small site :)
[06:09] <psi_> Is dl-fldigi a APRS Decoder?
[06:09] <Dan-K2VOL> No
[06:10] <psi_> What is it?
[06:10] <Dan-K2VOL> Dl-fldigi is meant to decode a ton of other ham radio digital comm modes, and take a special spacenear.us formatted packet and post it to the spacenear.us website
[06:11] <Dan-K2VOL> Comes in handy for non-2m band flights
[06:11] <Dan-K2VOL> Like HF, or 433MHz in Europe
[06:11] <psi_> Is it for public use? So could I use it to do a flight and live output?
[06:11] <Dan-K2VOL> Where there's a need for simpler communication
[06:11] <Dan-K2VOL> or slower speeds
[06:11] <psi_> We're going to use 144MHZ APRS here in Australia.
[06:12] <Darkside> psi_: what state
[06:12] <Darkside> are you part of the perth group?
[06:12] <psi_> In NSW near Sydney.
[06:12] <Darkside> ahhh ok
[06:12] <Darkside> did anyone from that group attent linuxconf?
[06:12] <Darkside> shenki and I did a talk about high altitude ballooning there :)
[06:13] <Darkside> anyway, for your first flight, i wouldn't fly just APRS
[06:13] <psi_> I'm very new to this and have not met or discussed HAB with anyone yet. But I want to get into it and do an HD flight.
[06:13] <Darkside> come down to adelaide for a few days :P
[06:13] <Darkside> one of the first things you'll need to deal with is getting CASA approval for launching a balloon
[06:14] <psi_> I have the CASA contact organised already.
[06:14] <Darkside> ok, good
[06:14] <psi_> Just need to build a system.
[06:14] <Darkside> have you looked at launch predictions?
[06:14] <psi_> Do you fly from Adelaide regularly?
[06:14] <Darkside> psi_: yes
[06:14] <psi_> No, I have no launch predictions.
[06:14] <Darkside> project horus does flights roughly every month
[06:14] <Darkside> http://habhub.org/predict/
[06:15] <psi_> Do you launch for fun or science? Purpose?
[06:15] <Darkside> psi_: amateur radio stuff mostly
[06:15] <Darkside> and awesome videos
[06:15] <Darkside> check this out: http://projecthorus.org/?page_id=1470
[06:15] <psi_> That predict site is bloody fantastic. :)
[06:16] <Darkside> where in sydney are you launching from?
[06:16] <Darkside> roughly
[06:17] <psi_> I was going to drive out west and launch afew hours out of sydney for my first flight/
[06:17] <psi_> Maybe near Orange.
[06:17] <Darkside> ok, do you have receiving gear?
[06:17] <psi_> Just don't want to loose it in the ocean.
[06:17] <Darkside> for a first flight, i'd reccommend using the triedand tested systems associated with spacenear.us
[06:18] <psi_> Yes. 2 radios.
[06:18] <Darkside> as in, you have a payload that sends out 300 baud RTTY data, consisting of GPS positions, and other data
[06:18] <psi_> I need to come and play with the toys you guys have in Adelaide.
[06:18] <Darkside> yeah you do :P
[06:18] <psi_> Do you have a schedule?
[06:19] <Darkside> not really :P
[06:19] <psi_> How far does the average HAB drift downwind?
[06:19] <Darkside> there is no 'average' HAB :P
[06:19] <Darkside> all depends on the current wind conditions
[06:19] <psi_> I'm aiming for 100,000 foot is that doable?
[06:20] <Darkside> very
[06:20] <Darkside> our balloons normally reach a bit above 30km altitude
[06:20] <Darkside> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=5fe830203081083315c1f3a95d432a70fd9984e0
[06:21] <Darkside> so theres a prediction for orange, tomorrow
[06:21] <Darkside> at about 11AM
[06:22] <psi_> I think I need that prediction software. Didn't even think to look for it. I was going to call BoM
[06:22] <Darkside> well this one is an online predictor
[06:22] <Darkside> spacenear.us also does live predictions as the flight goes on
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[06:23] <Darkside> those predictions also take into account new data collected from the balloon (wind speed at different altitudes, etc)
[06:23] <psi_> So what is a tried and tested system I can buy?
[06:23] <Darkside> there is none :P
[06:23] <Darkside> we've used a few custom boards
[06:23] <psi_> Or make?
[06:23] <Darkside> the mobsendat board from freetronics is probably the closest thing to a telemetry system there is
[06:23] <psi_> I do have some Arduino boards, but was looking at this for ease of use: http://www.argentdata.com/products/tracker2.html
[06:24] <Darkside> as we had input into the design of that board
[06:24] <Darkside> yeah, APRS will work, but you don't really need it
[06:24] <Darkside> hell, you could stack some arduino shields and make a tracker that way
[06:24] <psi_> The first flight needs to be simple and cheap for me and my mates.
[06:24] <Darkside> good luck on that :P
[06:25] <Darkside> helium isn't cheap :(
[06:25] <Darkside> psi_: do you have an amateur license?
[06:25] <psi_> A G size tank is $414 but may be able to get it cheaper via a family friend.
[06:25] <psi_> My cohorts have 2 HAM licences.
[06:25] <Darkside> ok
[06:26] <Darkside> well, i'd reccomend we talk a bit more
[06:26] <psi_> Where do I source a balloon, and what size do you guys use?
[06:26] <Darkside> depends on the launch
[06:26] <Darkside> i'd suggest starting out with a small launch, with just a telemetry beacon on it
[06:26] <psi_> Hmmm, I have lots of questions.
[06:26] <Darkside> yeah, i have to head off to work in a sec
[06:27] <psi_> Are you often here?
[06:27] <Darkside> i'm always in the channel, just not always watching IRC
[06:27] <Darkside> so feel free to PM me
[06:27] <psi_> OK.
[06:27] <psi_> My 2nd flight is a bit more ambitious.
[06:27] <Darkside> we should organise a launch for you to come along to :P
[06:28] <psi_> ABSOLUTELY.
[06:28] <Darkside> you can get to adelaide?
[06:28] <psi_> Jetstar. Yes.
[06:28] <Darkside> heh
[06:28] <Darkside> true
[06:28] <Darkside> well, there might be a launch coming up, not 100% sure yet
[06:29] <Darkside> always good to come along for a launch to get an idea of what we do
[06:29] <Darkside> and what you need
[06:29] <Darkside> also the chase is fun too :D
[06:29] <psi_> I'm into RC Planes and my 2nd flight needs to have an Autopiloted plane glide back to the start location. Done that before???
[06:29] <Darkside> we try and get to the landing site to watch the land
[06:29] <Darkside> psi_: ahhhhhhh
[06:29] <Darkside> been planning that
[06:29] <Darkside> dropping a plane from 30km is reeeeeeeeealy interesting
[06:30] <psi_> No chasing required!
[06:30] <Darkside> you'd need to make a custom plane to handle the winds
[06:30] <psi_> Nah!!!
[06:30] <Darkside> wind speeds up that high are pretty intense
[06:30] <Darkside> we've had out payload go 150kph before
[06:31] <psi_> BRB
[06:31] <Darkside> i need to head off to work, will be back on later tonight
[06:31] <Darkside> around 11pm your time i think
[06:32] <psi_> Are you available via phone for afew mins?
[06:32] <Darkside> not right now
[06:32] <psi_> If not, no worries.
[06:32] <Darkside> also try and contact juxta
[06:33] <Darkside> juxta is the project lead for project horus
[06:33] <Darkside> anyway, gtg!
[06:34] <psi_> I have a plane that is pretty robust and can survive the wind.
[06:34] <psi_> CYA
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[06:44] <Darkside> ok
[06:44] <Darkside> on the bus, can talk for a little bit
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[06:44] <Darkside> psi_: i was considering an autonomous glider
[06:44] <Darkside> that would use thermals to get home
[06:45] <Darkside> my current limitation is $$$
[06:50] <psi_> I don't think you need thermals to get home. It would glide back ok I think.
[06:50] <psi_> Have trouble thru the jetstream though. But not for long.
[06:51] <psi_> Could theoretically chase the balloon downwind, then upload the new Fly-To-Home to the glif=der inflight.
[06:51] <Darkside> eek
[06:52] <Darkside> if you can make a reliable uplink
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[06:52] <Darkside> psi_: you totally need to come down to adelaide for a weekend or something :P
[06:52] <psi_> Can uplink with APRS
[06:53] <Darkside> how much data?
[06:54] <Darkside> also what power source were you planning on using?
[06:56] <Darkside> lipos dont work too well at -30 degrees
[06:59] <griffonbot> Received email: discoross <rpanderson@gmail.com> "[UKHAS] operation frequencies"
[07:01] <psi_> Back now. I would have thought a foam box could insulate the batteries.
[07:02] <psi_> Not sure how much data it can uplink.
[07:03] <Darkside> foam boxes only do so much, heh
[07:03] <psi_> What internal temps do you experience. I hear lithium batts work well.
[07:03] <Darkside> lithium primaries work well
[07:03] <psi_> Our 144MHz Tx might put out a bit of heat too.
[07:04] <Darkside> i.e. energizer lithiu aas
[07:04] <Darkside> we've seen -25 C internal temps
[07:04] <Darkside> even with insulation
[07:04] <Darkside> ok, at work now, will be back on later
[07:04] <psi_> CYA
[07:08] <x-f> Darkside, do you have ever used some active heating, like resistors or hand warmers?
[07:09] <x-f> (or anybody else, who has already flown one or more HABs)
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[09:36] <Elwell> x-f: I've seen comments about people using handwarmers within the payloads near the camera
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[10:13] <Darkside> x-f: we've never heated our cameras
[10:13] <Darkside> gopro hd hero's
[10:14] <Darkside> i think they generate enough heat internally to work fine
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[10:15] <eroomde> yes the cameras generate a lot of heat
[10:16] <eroomde> if anything, use them as heaters for the rest of the payload box
[10:17] <Darkside> hehe
[10:19] <jgrahamc> That's partly why I lined my capsule with Mylar film. Reflects to much heat from the electronics it's toasty inside.
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[10:29] <eroomde> yep, toasty is a good thing
[10:30] <jgrahamc> BTW. I'm getting really close to being launchable. Probably looking at being ready in early March. Winds permitting.
[10:31] <eroomde> cool
[10:31] <eroomde> yes the winds are not the most helpful atm
[10:33] <x-f> ok, thanks for information about heating
[10:34] <eroomde> jgrahamc: I hope the neon green shows up on the ground! I've always been a fan of flourescent orange just because it shows up so well from a distance in a field
[10:35] <jgrahamc> Agree on the green, but I have the capsule fluorescent yellow so hoping between the two I can find it.
[10:36] <eroomde> just reading further down your blog, I never thought I'd see a function called get_maidens()
[10:37] <jgrahamc> Ha ha ha. Yes, that was a bit of a lark.
[10:41] <Laurenceb> looks useful
[10:41] <jgrahamc> Has anyone thought about hacking the flash unit from a compact camera to use as a flashing beacon on their HAB?
[10:42] <Laurenceb> the voltages are a bit scary
[10:42] <jgrahamc> Yes, they are. I discovered that the hard way..
[10:46] <eroomde> everyone does
[10:46] <eroomde> but yes, thought about it once for a night launch
[10:46] <eroomde> I think though that back in the days we were doing night launches, we rarely left ourselves with enough time for niceties
[10:58] <Laurenceb> http://peauproductions.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=26_27&zenid=59db5f89e3b0b28de0a99a7dfe54b63d
[10:58] Action: Laurenceb drools
[11:01] <Laurenceb> 122 degree FOV without distortion is pretty insane
[11:06] <SpeedEvil> Ah! They've discovered how to perfectly map a sphere onto a rectangle, without distortion!
[11:06] <SpeedEvil> This will revolutionise the mapmaking industry!
[11:07] <Laurenceb> heh
[11:08] <Laurenceb> its probably a lot easier in SW, but you lose resolution
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[12:08] <SpeedEvil> Posted yesterday - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FJAcCpkPg0
[12:08] <SpeedEvil> reverse engineering the canon language - properly
[12:19] <Laurenceb> seems the ps3eye uses rolling shutter :(
[12:19] <Laurenceb> i had hoped it was global
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> :/
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> Do you care?
[12:21] <SpeedEvil> Every line in the image has a defined shutter time still.
[12:21] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:21] <Laurenceb> its probably dealable with in software
[12:22] <Laurenceb> this idea confuses me a bit....
[12:23] <Laurenceb> basically i was thinking wind tunnel filled with smoke, then ir laser diode aimed in with galvo, and the camera observes the speckle frequency distribution
[12:23] <Darkside> hmm
[12:23] <Darkside> time to play with hamlib
[12:23] <Laurenceb> which should be white noise with a roll off at velocity/voxel size
[12:24] <Laurenceb> so annoyingly that only allows low velocities <1m/s to be measured, but you can get round that by combining multiple frames with differing laser rescan rate
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> Why is asynchronous grabbing of the frame a problem then - witht he rolling shutter?
[12:25] <Laurenceb> so maybe 187fps from a ps3eye, going down to 10fps velocity 'frames'
[12:25] <Laurenceb> makes it harder to work out whats going on...
[12:25] <Laurenceb> but yeah its probably possible to deal with
[12:26] <Laurenceb> annoyingly speckle is a statistical effect, so theres a finite chance you wont get any speckle happening over the observation time
[12:27] <Laurenceb> the data might be quite noisey
[12:27] <Darkside> is this your laser mosquito killer?
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> Hang on.
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> Can't you just treat each line as its own frame?
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> Or do you get 2D information as to the speckle
[12:29] <Laurenceb> probably, yes
[12:29] <Laurenceb> Darkside: no, i actually had a sensible idea for laser galvo
[12:29] <SpeedEvil> Or you can - more or less - probably treat slices of the overall frame time as isochronus.
[12:29] <Laurenceb> scanning anemometer for wind tunnels
[12:29] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:29] <SpeedEvil> For example - add a neutral density filter until you get 100% exposure
[12:29] <SpeedEvil> each 10% of the frame is pretty much at the same time
[12:30] <Laurenceb> or laser intensity
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> True
[12:31] <Laurenceb> i came across an interesting idea- "doppler rainbow imaging"
[12:32] <Laurenceb> project a variable doppler shifted reference beam across the sensor face
[12:32] <Laurenceb> together with an image of the target
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> Ummm... Spinningmirror?
[12:32] <Laurenceb> its relatively simple to arrange like that yes
[12:33] <Laurenceb> then the image of the beam if swiped up the sensor, and you get a sync pattern on each column of pixels
[12:33] <Laurenceb> the sync function is centered on the doppler
[12:34] <Laurenceb> but thats a lot of work compared with speckle
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[12:39] <Laurenceb> also it needs a He-Ne laser for the coherence lenght
[12:40] Action: Laurenceb wishes photonics stuff was cheaper and more widely available
[12:44] Action: SpeedEvil wishes mature nanotech was more widely available.
[12:44] Action: SpeedEvil wants a starship seed.
[12:44] <Laurenceb> heh
[12:45] <Laurenceb> loads of stuff can be done fairly easily with fibre now
[12:45] <Laurenceb> its just silly prices
[12:45] <SpeedEvil> you mean the doped fibre?
[12:45] <SpeedEvil> Decent watts of pump diodes are getting cheap too
[12:47] <Laurenceb> i meant couplers and stuff
[12:47] <Laurenceb> but yeah doped fibre too
[12:47] <Laurenceb> you can make a fibre amplifier with just a knife and some tape
[12:48] <Laurenceb> not a very good one but...
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> Do you illuminat the fibre from the side?
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> How does it work?
[12:49] <Laurenceb> no
[12:49] <SpeedEvil> ah
[12:50] <SpeedEvil> So you do need couplers of some form to get the pump in
[12:50] <Laurenceb> you stick the decoherent exciter lasers down it
[12:50] <Laurenceb> as many as you like :P
[12:50] <Laurenceb> then theres a ring with couplers to let the exciter in and dump a small fraction of the circulating light with each pass
[12:51] <Laurenceb> yeah, they really need to be wavelenght specific
[12:51] <Laurenceb> the fully optical repeaters for fibre comms lines are linear and built into the cable
[12:52] <Laurenceb> but use the same basic idea
[12:53] <Laurenceb> ive seen fm done by epoxying some of the fibre ring to an ultrasonic transducer
[12:54] <SpeedEvil> The pump beam is down the same fibre at a much higher power, at different wavelength, and only 'used' at the amplifiers? (comms)
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[12:54] <SpeedEvil> So no need for splitters?
[12:54] <Laurenceb> usually down a separate 'power' fibre aiui
[12:55] <Laurenceb> presumably the transoceanic stuff has DC power for some laser diodes
[12:55] <Laurenceb> it needs a splitter for injecting pump into the start of the doped section of data fibre
[12:57] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_amplifier#Doped_fibre_amplifiers
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[12:58] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - know how they work - was wondering if in practice it was done on the same fibre. As if it's transparent enough at the pump wavelength, and the amount of power used on each pump stage is sufficiently low, ...
[12:59] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah
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[13:03] <Laurenceb> hmm seems like an easy to make fibre laser would be multimode
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[13:08] <SpeedEvil> Umm......
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[13:08] Action: SpeedEvil tries to work that out.
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> Don't the different wavelengths have different intensity profiles in a multimode laser?
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> Also - won't it really screw the coherence lenght?
[13:09] <Laurenceb> yes it will
[13:10] <Laurenceb> it needs a fibre bragg grating to kill all but one mode
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[14:12] <m1x10> Hi all
[14:12] <Dan-K2VOL> hi
[14:13] <m1x10> how r things?
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[14:19] <NigelMoby> Meh
[14:27] <m1x10> The DS18B20 temp sensors need a 4.7k resistor to work.
[14:27] <m1x10> is this the same if I power it at 3v3?
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[14:30] <Darkside> yup
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[14:41] <davidjc> Anyone from around essex or the m11 up to cambridge and know a good helium supplier? Best ive gotten so far is £80 for a T size (3.6m²) cylinder from a BOC outlet. Or is £80 not bad for that size?
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[15:08] <Zuph> Morning HABers
[15:09] <Dan-K2VOL> mornin
[15:09] <Dan-K2VOL> damn rs232
[15:09] <Dan-K2VOL> isn't working to that scope
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[15:13] <Zuph> :(
[15:15] <fsphil> davidjc, that's about right
[15:15] <Zuph> The USB bus, she canna take anymore cap'n.
[15:19] <Dan-K2VOL> lol Zuph, we need more ports damnit! Engage Hi-Speed USB now damnit
[15:19] <Zuph> I'm given 'er all she's got!
[15:19] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm not sure if it needs more power or speed, or that Tim's RS232 cable is wonky
[15:20] <Dan-K2VOL> but I get very intermittent comms with the scope
[15:20] <Zuph> :-\
[15:20] <Dan-K2VOL> or that USB bus doesn't like hosting 11 com ports
[15:20] <Zuph> The scope thinks it's getting constant comm with the computer.
[15:21] <Zuph> hah
[15:21] <fsphil> random fact: rs232 is 50 years old :)
[15:21] <Zuph> That could be.
[15:21] <Dan-K2VOL> Unfortunately I'm afraid we'll be in a race to the end of the dry ice to get there to troubleshoot this evening
[15:21] <Dan-K2VOL> and to the end of the flight batteries
[15:22] <Zuph> Interesting fact to any bystanders: We've got 6 or 7 FTDI cables running into a -40 degree cryo chamber, across the room ~35 feet into a PC that we're all using to debug balloon stuff from work.
[15:23] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: I think the dry ice will easily last until we get out of work. I'd be willing to pick up more on the way there.
[15:23] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Flight batteries are another question entirely, though
[15:24] <Dan-K2VOL> actually I'm a little more concerned about the flight batt pack
[15:24] <fsphil> anything major break Zuph?
[15:24] <Dan-K2VOL> as we really need to see how that performs when trying to transmit
[15:24] <Zuph> fsphil: Lots and lots of little bugs that would have jeopardized the flight.
[15:24] <Dan-K2VOL> I watched it last night try many, many, times to respond to the satellite unsuccesfully
[15:25] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Maybe it just can't pump enough power through 75 feet of feedline and BNC jumpers :-p
[15:25] <Dan-K2VOL> I guess I could just send lots of messages and see if they make it
[15:25] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, seriously
[15:25] <Dan-K2VOL> what a rube goldberg setup
[15:26] <Zuph> Interesting fact to any bystanders: We've got ~75 feet of feedline going through 2 or 3 BNC jumpers to a satellite antenna on the roof of our building, 2 stories up, in an urban downtown area, feeding into our cryo chamber. The sat modem itself has an MMCX to SMA jumper to connect to all that feedline :-p
[15:28] <Darkside> noice
[15:28] <Darkside> now i must sleep
[15:28] <Dan-K2VOL> night Darkside
[15:29] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph good thing I installed logmein on that PC, teamviewer just went belly-up
[15:29] <Dan-K2VOL> heh
[15:29] <Zuph> :(
[15:30] <Dan-K2VOL> this feels like Apollo 1, on the pad, and an endless string of little setbacks
[15:30] <Dan-K2VOL> is your serproxy working out?
[15:31] <Zuph> Hah, in my tired haze last night, I forgot to tunnel the ports out the firewall.
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[15:32] <Zuph> Fortunately, I found enough bugs last night to keep me amply busy in addition to the normal workload.
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[15:33] <Dan-K2VOL> hehe
[15:34] <Dan-K2VOL> I was about to send a test message thru sat modem, but I had to think - is it really 1k we'll be sending every 15 minutes?
[15:34] <Zuph> Heh, in high data rate, yes it will :-p
[15:36] <Dan-K2VOL> have to make sure we obey our data rate schedule, or we'll bust our bank account
[15:37] <Dan-K2VOL> sat modem internal temperature is 35C btw
[15:37] <Zuph> If we stay in high data rate the whole mission through some unfortunate accident, we'll burst our bank account half as much as we have this week.
[15:39] <fsphil> no such thing as Pay-as-you-go for satellite modems then?
[15:40] <Dan-K2VOL> ah true. for the bystanders here, we had a few accidents where we had non-balloon team people puncture a trans-atlantic envelope that was being leak tested, and an entire set of flight batteries (welded, sealed, and soldered in) get turned on and left running by someone when we weren't there
[15:40] <Dan-K2VOL> oh with a hard cap zuph?
[15:40] <fsphil> ooch
[15:41] <Zuph> High data rate over a 72 hour mission runs ~$200.
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[15:41] <Dan-K2VOL> that's about 250 GBP
[15:41] <Zuph> ?
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[15:42] <Zuph> It's about 125 gbp
[15:42] <fsphil> yea, a pound is worth a bit more than the dollar -- something some companies forget occasionally
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[15:46] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph, I mean the losses we incurred this week
[15:46] <Zuph> ah
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[15:48] <fsphil> it's pricey -- is it worth it?
[15:51] <Zuph> That's the question, isn't it? :-p
[16:00] <NigelMoby> Afternoon
[16:03] <fsphil> hiya NigelMoby
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[16:05] <NigelMoby> Not in good mood, seems our cable modem has died and the desires tendering won't work :@
[16:05] <NigelMoby> Tethering*
[16:05] <fsphil> eek! your without t'internet?
[16:06] <NigelMoby> Yup, not amused
[16:07] <fsphil> virgin?
[16:07] <Laurenceb> help
[16:07] <Laurenceb> you might not be one for long now
[16:07] <Laurenceb> without the internet
[16:08] <NigelMoby> How'd you guess
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[16:15] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: NASA study on flight software complexity: http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/418878main_FSWC_Final_Report.pdf
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[16:19] <Dan-K2VOL> Glad to know that Batman was on the job there Zuph
[16:20] <Zuph> ?
[16:22] <Dan-K2VOL> Adam West was the program manager on that pdf http://www.google.com/images?q=adam+west&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=KhxQTeb9C8iSgQeVlNVD&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CFYQsAQwBA&biw=1153&bih=707
[16:22] <Zuph> Ah! Didn't even notice :-p
[16:24] <Dan-K2VOL> You know I wonder how well the balloons would be suited to an available embedded RTOS
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[16:25] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: With a beefier processor, it would work extremely well.
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[16:27] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah there's not much room for us and an RTOS on the current line of 8-bit AVRs we're using
[16:28] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Nope. A lot of the default AVR C library isn't threadsafe either.
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[16:29] <Dan-K2VOL> lol for some reason that conjures up functions that have razorblades hidden in them
[16:30] <Zuph> hah
[16:30] <Zuph> Our homebrew task queuing system isn't too far from a real implementation of co-routines, though.
[16:30] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph, I goofed up the plan to baffle the dry ice chamber vents
[16:30] <Zuph> ruh roh
[16:31] <Dan-K2VOL> I remember why I wanted to partially block the output vent - to prevent that huge slit from allowing as much convective currents to circulate
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[16:32] <Dan-K2VOL> instead when I went in there I blocked the damn fan port, which is tiny
[16:32] <Zuph> Well, it'll be a really cryo test :-p
[16:32] <Dan-K2VOL> I don't think the fan has come on since I left last night
[16:32] <Dan-K2VOL> it's 4 degrees below target still
[16:32] <Dan-K2VOL> however, I'm not terribly worried because we have that mixing fan in there
[16:33] <Dan-K2VOL> so it should be 70 on the bottom
[16:33] <Dan-K2VOL> should NOT
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[16:34] <Zuph> yeah
[16:34] <Zuph> Unless it has frozen again
[16:37] <griffonbot> Received email: Florian Bruhin <me@the-compiler.org> "Re: [UKHAS] operation frequencies"
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[16:39] <The-Compiler> damn hilights :p
[16:40] <fsphil> no escape :p
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[16:48] <m1x10> fsphil: do we know whats the last character sent by a gps sentence ?
[16:48] <m1x10> its a newline char?
[16:48] <m1x10> a null char?
[16:48] <fsphil> newline
[16:48] <m1x10> ok
[16:52] <m1x10> http://imagebin.org/136604
[16:52] <Colin-G8TMV> m1x10: if it's doing NEMA then it sends CF and LF
[16:52] <m1x10> mh
[16:52] <Colin-G8TMV> Cr and LF
[16:52] <m1x10> that could be the cause
[16:53] <Colin-G8TMV> cause NEMA was spec'd back in DOS days
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[16:54] <fsphil> wikipedia agrees :) "<CR><LF> ends the message."
[16:55] <griffonbot> @nearsys: Directions for UltraLight are at making the antenna (did I tell you, an antenna is included with the kit). Will add audio beacon next #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/34656453528649728]
[16:56] <m1x10> finally: i did it :)
[16:56] <m1x10> http://imagebin.org/136605
[16:57] <m1x10> im happy
[16:57] <m1x10> worked much time for adding a whole extra uart device
[16:57] <Zuph> One of the white star guys has developed a GPS simulator that works on linux, windows or arduino. Outputs a NMEA strings based on a set of input waypoints. It's really, really slick.
[16:57] <Zuph> *output nmea
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[17:01] <Dan-K2VOL> It's also open source :-)
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[17:02] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph when we get flying we need to get our code off of dropbox and onto github or something
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[17:05] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Yes. I'll gladly do a github workshop.
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[17:05] <fsphil> github is neat
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[17:06] <m1x10> back
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[17:11] <fsphil> anyone experienced on removing an IC with a hot air gun?
[17:11] <Dan-K2VOL> quite experienced fsphil
[17:11] <Dan-K2VOL> is it important that the IC be OK afterward?
[17:12] <Dan-K2VOL> cause there's a micro-thermite technique that you ignite with the hot air...
[17:12] <fsphil> yea :) I'm not actually trying to remove it, just reflow the solder to repair a bad joint
[17:12] <Dan-K2VOL> :-P
[17:12] <Dan-K2VOL> what's the lead pitch?
[17:12] <Dan-K2VOL> and package type
[17:12] <Dan-K2VOL> like SOIC, BGA QFN etc
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[17:13] <fsphil> PLCC, not sure about he pitch
[17:13] <fsphil> I'm wondering if I should cover the other components near it with foil, to keep the heat away from them?
[17:15] <fsphil> brb, thunderstorm :)
[17:15] <Dan-K2VOL> oh
[17:16] <Dan-K2VOL> fsphil, it's big enough to just use a soldering iron, unless it's a big ground pad under the chip
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[17:19] Nick change: jonsowman_ -> jonsowman
[17:19] <Dan-K2VOL> put lots of flux on the joint- that will help everything flow, and just touch it with the tip of your clean, tinned iron.
[17:20] <Dan-K2VOL> fsphil ^^ I assume youll get these when you return, though you haven't left& what ARE you doing if not unplugging your computer, flying a kite?
[17:20] <Dan-K2VOL> fsphil, here's a nice guide to SMT soldering with a normal soldering iron: http://www.avrfreaks.net/modules/FreaksArticles/files/15/Low%20Cost%20SMD%20Soldering%20Guide.pdf
[17:21] <Dan-K2VOL> so who in Europe wants to go chase SpeedBall-1 when it gets over land there?
[17:22] <Dan-K2VOL> er I should say SpeedBall-# as who knows which one will make it
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[17:26] <Zuph> A note for volunteers: We could end up anywhere from Norway to North Africa.
[17:28] <Dan-K2VOL> oh zuph, they have trains in europe, it shouldn't be a problem
[17:28] <Dan-K2VOL> and I assume a bridge over that lake between europe and africa, right?
[17:28] <Dan-K2VOL> you all may want to ask before going into any backyards of countries that aren't yours
[17:29] <Dan-K2VOL> jeez, am I that bad at international humor or are all of you asleep
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[17:30] <x-f> :)
[17:33] <Dan-K2VOL> hi x-f, where u from?
[17:33] <Dan-K2VOL> haven't seen you around
[17:34] <Dan-K2VOL> and I'm procrastinating at work right now :-P
[17:34] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Whatever happened to licking boot? :-p
[17:35] <x-f> hi, Dan. i'm from Latvia (North-East Europe).
[17:36] <x-f> but i don't have a radio
[17:37] <x-f> i'm lurking here a couple of months already to get answers to questions i haven't yet thinked about regarding our HAB project later this year
[17:37] <Dan-K2VOL> cool x-f!
[17:38] <Dan-K2VOL> nice to see some eastern europe activity.
[17:38] <Dan-K2VOL> where in Latvia are you? I wonder if you'll have trouble retreiving if you cross over into Russia
[17:40] <x-f> yeah, i know - Baltic sea on one side, Russia and Belarus on the other :)
[17:40] <x-f> at least Estonia and Lithuania on top and bottom are friendly countries
[17:40] <x-f> i'm in the middle of Latvia - near Riga, our capital city
[17:42] <Dan-K2VOL> ah, have you been trying out the CUSF flight predictor to see where winds usually take flights from your area?
[17:43] <x-f> yes, of course
[17:43] <x-f> in this time of year they are mostly South-East
[17:43] <x-f> but we are aiming on summertime day with no wind
[17:44] <x-f> (hopefully)
[17:45] <Dan-K2VOL> cool
[17:45] <x-f> there's at least 250-300 km till the border of Russia, i hope it will be enough
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[17:48] <x-f> regarding that east european activity - there was a successful flight in Poland - http://moo.pl/~tygrys/balloon/
[17:49] <x-f> i guess that's the closest i know
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[18:05] <Dan-K2VOL> x- you up for helping to find/retreive another group's balloon if it lands over near you?
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[18:08] <x-f> Dan-K2VOL, definately!
[18:08] <m1x10> fsphil: http://imagebin.org/136617
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[18:10] <Dan-K2VOL> great x-f, if you can, follow @lvl1whitestar for progress updates or @whitestarball for just launch notices
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[18:11] <Dan-K2VOL> and come on to this chatroom if it looks like it's heading your way :-)
[18:11] <fsphil> thanks Dan-K2VOL
[18:11] <fsphil> the kite didn't work :)
[18:11] <Dan-K2VOL> there will be several flights over the next 2 months x-f that may land anywhere in Europe
[18:12] <Dan-K2VOL> fsphil, did the soldering work?
[18:12] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
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[18:13] <fsphil> will try later tonight :) I had tried before with the soldering iron, and it didn't help much -- although I didn't try flux
[18:13] <fsphil> I'm not sure which pin is at fault either
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[18:13] <x-f> Dan, yes, i know, i'm already following those Twitter accounts :)
[18:14] <Dan-K2VOL> nice x-f :-)
[18:15] <Dan-K2VOL> ah if you don't know which pin fsphil, I'd put flux over all pins, and use the solder ball technique with the iron to push a ball of solder along over all the pins
[18:16] <Dan-K2VOL> a flat sided tip works best for pushing the solder
[18:16] <Dan-K2VOL> LOTS of flux
[18:16] <Dan-K2VOL> don't even bother with that technique if you have no flux
[18:16] <fsphil> would that not just leave bridges all over the place?
[18:16] <Dan-K2VOL> you'l just end up with 48 solder bridges
[18:16] <fsphil> I've a flux pen
[18:16] <Dan-K2VOL> not if you have tons of flux
[18:16] <Dan-K2VOL> it's a neat trick
[18:17] <mattltm> What are you soldering fsphil?
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[18:17] <Dan-K2VOL> for the one or two bridges you might get, just add more flux, and try touching one pin with the iron, or use a section of ALREADY SOLDER SATURATED desoldering braid on it
[18:17] <fsphil> mattltm, video chip in an old computer
[18:18] <Dan-K2VOL> do try and rinse the flux off afterward if you want it to keep working for a long time.
[18:18] <mattltm> SMT? I guess not?
[18:18] <fsphil> yea, PLCC
[18:18] <mattltm> Ahh. Ouch.
[18:20] <mattltm> Good tip I use is to tin 2 diaganaly oposite legs, solder them to the board first.
[18:20] <mattltm> Then ge2 2 paperclips and place one each side of the next leg
[18:20] <fsphil> oh it's already on the board, just some of the joints are a bit bad
[18:20] <mattltm> (unfolded)
[18:21] <mattltm> solder the leg in between the paperclips. They work as a heat sink and make it easy.
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[18:22] <fsphil> I'll be doing that shortly too though, got a lovely little surface mount avr to solder
[18:22] <mattltm> Very nice. You need a reflow oven :)
[18:23] <fsphil> if I had the room :)
[18:23] <Tiger^> x-f: check out http://en.copernicus-project.org/
[18:23] <mattltm> http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/oven_art.htm
[18:24] <Tiger^> x-f: (re: near space activity in Poland)
[18:24] <x-f> Tiger^, thanks
[18:24] <mattltm> fsphil: I give you the toaster reflow oven!
[18:25] <fsphil> is that your page? I've seen that before
[18:26] <mattltm> Nope. But I have used an electric grill to mount some SMT chips before :)
[18:26] <fsphil> sweet
[18:26] <mattltm> And a hot air paint gun :)
[18:26] <fsphil> I've got a lovely little hot air gun here
[18:26] <fsphil> well, big hot air gun
[18:26] <fsphil> that solder paste stuff looks really handy
[18:27] <x-f> Tiger^, that Cygnus-2 was your HAB! :)
[18:30] <Tiger^> x-f: yup.
[18:36] <x-f> Tiger^, thank you for such a detailed summary of your project, i've read that page a couple of times already, very useful as a guideline for beginners
[18:40] <Tiger^> x-f: thanks :)
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[19:12] <Dan-K2VOL> fsphil I use an AOYUE hot air soldering station http://www.sparkfun.com/products/76 and solder paste in a syringe for smt work.
[19:12] <fsphil> the station I have is similar
[19:12] <fsphil> how well does the paste work?
[19:12] <Dan-K2VOL> just run a bead of paste along all the pads for your chip and the paste rarely leaves a bridge
[19:13] <Dan-K2VOL> then set the chip down on the paste, preheat the whole setup to about 150C, (or until the paste gets runny) and use a narrow air tip to move along the leads until each flows shiny
[19:14] <fsphil> what do you preheat it with? the air gun?
[19:14] <Dan-K2VOL> very fast and easy. yeah use no nozzle, or just wave your narrow tip around a lot
[19:14] <Dan-K2VOL> or a hair dryer would work
[19:14] <Dan-K2VOL> a heat gun is too hot
[19:14] <fsphil> ooh good idea
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[19:16] <Dan-K2VOL> the only thing that requires practice there is how wide of a bead to lay down on the chip pads. that will just come with practice, too wide and you get a few bridges, too narrow and you get a few pins that don't have enough solder
[19:16] <Dan-K2VOL> bridges are better than not enough though in my opinion - it's easier to remove bridges on a tiny leaded IC than to add just enough solder.
[19:16] <Dan-K2VOL> did you get my tip about using desoldering braid that's already full of solder?
[19:17] <fsphil> yea spotted that, is that to prevent the braid absorbing all the solder?
[19:18] <Dan-K2VOL> yes
[19:19] <Dan-K2VOL> the braid will easily suck all the solder out from under the leg
[19:19] <Dan-K2VOL> if dry
[19:19] <Dan-K2VOL> and adjacent legs too
[19:19] <griffonbot> Received email: Oliver <oliver.jones.digred@googlemail.com> "[UKHAS] Re: Festival appearance"
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[19:23] <Zuph> So, Dan-K2VOL, I had kind of a hairbrained idea at lunch.
[19:24] <griffonbot> Received email: Oliver <oliver.jones.digred@googlemail.com> "[UKHAS] Experts wanted"
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[19:25] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph& do go on...
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[19:26] <Zuph> The scope of our endeavor has gotten so large that it is impossible manage the things to be done, the things in progress, and the things which are completed, let alone the contributors.
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[19:29] <Zuph> I understand that we have to focus as much as we can on the "doing" part, and as little as possible on the tools, but maybe it would hone our efforts to use a bug tracker/ticketing system to keep track of these things. I guess the primary question is whether or not we could find one simple enough to get people to use it.
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[19:33] <eroomde> pivotal maybe?
[19:33] <Dan-K2VOL> I agree zuph!
[19:33] <eroomde> it's intentially lightweight and with a low barrier to use so you actually do
[19:34] <Dan-K2VOL> I think simple is a great feature to look for to lower the barrier for casual contributors
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[19:34] <Zuph> I think ideally people could document/accept responsibility for a task without need for a logon at all.
[19:34] <Zuph> Just put their name in a "name" field.
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[19:35] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah having too many logins already for everyone
[19:36] <Dan-K2VOL> pivotal looks pretty, taking a deeper look
[19:36] <Dan-K2VOL> and free for non-profits
[19:37] <Zuph> It does look pretty
[19:37] <Zuph> It looks like it's geared towards more structured projects, though :-p
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[19:42] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph actually the structure sounds a little appealing - http://www.pivotaltracker.com/features#workflow
[19:43] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Think you can impose some structure on this project?
[19:43] <Zuph> :-p
[19:43] <m1x10> http://i.usatoday.net/tech/graphics/iss_timeline/flash.htm
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[19:44] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph lol I think for speedball-2 construction we could try
[19:45] <Dan-K2VOL> and we could try for the remainder of SB-1 I suppose, this structure seems pretty simple and fast
[19:45] <Dan-K2VOL> hallelujah it allows you to log in with your Google account
[19:46] <Zuph> Oh, brilliant
[19:46] <Zuph> That should get everyone but Jose involved :-p
[19:47] <Dan-K2VOL> hahaha
[19:47] <Dan-K2VOL> I expect him to show up with the drawings on blueprint paper any day now
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[19:48] <Zuph> hah
[19:49] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: have you created a white star project?
[19:50] <Dan-K2VOL> just now
[19:50] <Dan-K2VOL> lol
[19:50] <Dan-K2VOL> well, I've just created a sample project to play with before creating a speedball, but I'll invite you
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[19:53] <Zuph> heh
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[19:59] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
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[20:26] <Elwell> Dan-K2VOL: meh if I can find a cheap enough receiver I may be able to track from mid france (weekends) -- midweek is easier, but it'd have to make it as far as switzerland
[20:27] <fsphil> is there a radio beacon?
[20:27] <Zuph> Most of our telemetry will be via satellite
[20:27] <Elwell> oh aye its sat itsn;t it
[20:27] <Zuph> Which we'll be uploading to a public tracking page.
[20:27] <Zuph> We will have a 40M transmitter from WB8ELK on board, though.
[20:28] <Elwell> 40m should be ok
[20:28] <fsphil> cool, if it comes near here I'll get the rig setup
[20:30] <Dan-K2VOL> Elwell, as a warning, HF will be very sparse to save power for the sat modem until final descent, in which case the HF will be spewing bloody murder
[20:31] <Dan-K2VOL> as the satellite modem is unlikely to be able to get sat uplinks scheduled in the short time it takes to descend to ground level
[20:35] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph very nice feature on the Pivotal Tracker is that you can move a story to another project
[20:36] <Zuph> Ooh, nice
[20:36] <Zuph> I like that
[20:36] <Dan-K2VOL> makes it feel a lot less likely to waste time on a less than optimal project breakdown
[20:36] <Zuph> Yeah
[20:36] <Dan-K2VOL> you can split it up differently later - like by module
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[20:37] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Your MIDI file is taking me back to my Wolfenstein 3D days.
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[20:38] <Dan-K2VOL> hahah!
[20:38] <Dan-K2VOL> I do hope the pololu regulators can faithfully reproduce
[20:39] <Dan-K2VOL> I loved wolfenstein
[20:40] <Dan-K2VOL> there's actually a page of Free National Anthem Midi files http://themes.mididb.com/anthems/
[20:40] <Dan-K2VOL> for your listening torture
[20:41] <Dan-K2VOL> perhaps speedball should play the local national anthem upon discovery to ease the liklihood of being disposed as trash
[20:41] <Zuph> heh
[20:44] <fsphil> I keep thinking of the Amiga game, Speedball
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[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:47] <Dan-K2VOL> oh interesting
[20:47] <Dan-K2VOL> hi Lunar_Lander
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> how was testing?
[20:48] <Zuph> Testy.
[20:49] <Zuph> Still going on, technically.
[20:49] <Zuph> I think I'm going to pick up more dry ice after work, too.
[20:49] <Zuph> Lots of stuff still untested :-p
[20:49] <Lunar_Lander> ah :)
[20:49] <Lunar_Lander> how long will the test last?
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[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> hi m1x10
[20:50] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm we're going on somewhere around 36 hours now I think
[20:50] <Zuph> Until it's done, I reckon.
[20:50] <Dan-K2VOL> probably till the flight batteries die (yes, all 50 AA e2 Energizer $$$ Lithiums)
[20:51] <Zuph> Well, if we have things that still need cold-tested inside, we can switch to ground power.
[20:51] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[20:52] <Dan-K2VOL> Lunar_Lander and the ground-flight cutover switching worked fantastically smoothly. We hadn't planned it to, but it surprised us and didn't even hiccup.
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> that is nice
[20:52] <m1x10> hi Lunar_Lander
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> so you have a switch that registers the launch?
[20:53] <Dan-K2VOL> that's a separate issue entirely but actually yes
[20:53] <Zuph> We have a a pull-switch that registers the launch, and a power switch for ground vs. flight power.
[20:53] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm just talking about the switch that changes the power source from external plug to internal batts
[20:53] <m1x10> Lunar_Lander: http://imagebin.org/136617
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> ah I see
[20:54] <Dan-K2VOL> on a flight of this complexity, there is a lot of software checkout and operation that has to be done with the thing all sealed up before launch
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> true
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> cool m1x10 what is it?
[20:54] <m1x10> the control center of my mission :)
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> and it says "Build Succeeded"
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> that is good :)
[20:56] <m1x10> in a few days I will send the 2nd revision of my mainboard
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:58] <m1x10> Lunar_Lander: http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs007.snc6/165784_1567114902610_1377549819_1337320_167858_n.jpg
[21:00] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[21:00] <Lunar_Lander> where is the left rocket?
[21:00] <m1x10> just one
[21:00] <m1x10> the trailder can support 3
[21:00] <m1x10> but it was an exercise
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok
[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> do you actually get to fire the missiles?
[21:02] <m1x10> no
[21:02] <m1x10> too expensive
[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> oh :(
[21:03] <m1x10> i think they will do one fire at Crete this year
[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[21:05] <m1x10> im looking for some electronics tutorial to print
[21:05] <m1x10> on the internet
[21:05] <m1x10> got any interesting link?
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> no sorry
[21:11] <SpeedEvil> xkcd - genius.
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[21:15] <mattltm> Why is it so hard to find a 2M multimode rig these days?
[21:15] <mattltm> Looks like I'll have to get another 857 for the car :(
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:18] <MrCraig> Does voltage on the ntx2 make any significant difference to output?
[21:19] <MrCraig> I'm talking the difference between say 5v and 9v
[21:19] <fsphil> it has an internal regulator, so probably not - as long as the voltage going into the TX pin is the same
[21:21] <MrCraig> oh, they have to match? I thought the tx pin was 2.2v<->3v cmos?
[21:23] <fsphil> any voltage between 0 and 3
[21:24] <MrCraig> So I can supply the module with 9v and use a resistor to drop down to 3 for the TX right?
[21:24] <fsphil> yep
[21:25] <MrCraig> or rather, I was thinking of using a 5 volt regulator and dropping down.
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[21:29] <griffonbot> Received email: Davejay <dave.jones@davejay.co.uk> "[UKHAS] Re: Radio receiver - handheld vs 'mobile'?"
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[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> I got a question to the thread in the newsgroup
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> with one about "detecting balloon burst"
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> is it good to have a mechanism that severs the line from the chute to the balloon remains?
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> so that the remains don't stay with the system
[21:47] <Dan-K2VOL> yes, a nichrome wire cutter
[21:47] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: I think Lunar_Lander is talking about a cutter to active after the balloon has burst.
[21:48] <Dan-K2VOL> that would be my recommendation still
[21:48] <Dan-K2VOL> with some sort of descent sensor
[21:48] <Dan-K2VOL> or tension switch
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> I mean
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> those remains change the variables
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> introduce extra drag
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> and I saw that quite big rubber chunks can stay attached
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> and cause debris on the ground
[21:49] <Dan-K2VOL> that's pretty unpredictable
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:49] <Dan-K2VOL> as sometimes a lot of crap remains or not
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> true
[21:49] <Dan-K2VOL> but I've never seen alarming deviations from predicted sink rate
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:50] <Zuph> If such a system were to fail, wouldn't its added weight add significantly to the risk of fouled chute?
[21:50] <Dan-K2VOL> we're using our zero pressure evelope FOR the descent drag
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> Zuph yeah I think you'd need a cable running up
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> trough the chute hole
[21:50] <Dan-K2VOL> possibly, but that's the same thing as a typical cutdown device
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> and then the cutting system
[21:50] <Dan-K2VOL> just lengthen it enough so it doesn't lay on the chute
[21:51] <Dan-K2VOL> Lunar_Lander, no you have a self contained 4AA lithium battery pack
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:52] <Zuph> But the typical cutdown cuts before the whole system is placed in a dramatic tumble :-p
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> yeah true :)
[21:52] <Zuph> Wouldn't there be a risk of lines tangling such that the cut down would fail in a post-burst tumble?
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> good question
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> if you only have the one load line
[21:53] <Lunar_Lander> and that little cutdown package
[21:53] <Zuph> Do the advantages of attempting to cut away the balloon post-burst exceed the disadvantages of new failure modes?
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> probably not
[21:54] <Dan-K2VOL> well, I don't think the cutdown is going to pose any more problem if activating after burst than it would if it failed to activate at all
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> I just think of that explosive cutdown presented on the UKHAS
[21:54] <Lunar_Lander> could be dangerous on the ground
[21:55] <Dan-K2VOL> if you give the cutdown enough air resistance (styrofoam box) it's going to be dragged down by the payload line
[21:55] <Dan-K2VOL> ah yeah, no explosives would be my recommendation
[21:55] <Dan-K2VOL> no need at all for that
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:55] <Dan-K2VOL> nichrome works VERY reliably
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> leave that for the professionals
[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> the squibs and stuff
[21:56] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah
[21:56] <fsphil> isn't nichrome wire pretty fragile?
[21:57] <griffonbot> Received email: "=?utf-8?B?Q2hyaXMgSGVtYnJvdw==?=" <chris.hembrow@pixelseventy2.net> "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Radio receiver - handheld vs 'mobile'?"
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[21:58] <Dan-K2VOL> Lunar_Lander here's our demo of the nichrome cutter: http://www.youtube.com/steamfire#p/u/11/35gGb5AWCkw
[21:59] <Dan-K2VOL> fsphil, no it's very sturdy, compared to about any other wire at high temperatures (Glowing yellow hot)
[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> does it turn on when the red LED flashes?
[22:00] <Dan-K2VOL> there's a guy here in Knoxville who'd be willing to make you guys those for cheap, with some customization for your application, to save you the trouble of R&D at the start, Carl Lyster, WA4ADG, ctlyster@comcast.net
[22:00] <Dan-K2VOL> he was on the SNOX team
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> ah thank you
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> lol the video is good
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> "Hot Dog!"
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:01] <Dan-K2VOL> lol that was me
[22:02] <Dan-K2VOL> trying not to swear on the youtubes
[22:02] <fsphil> mmm hot dogs
[22:02] <Dan-K2VOL> Lunar_Lander, I think the light just flashed every 5 seconds of countdown or something. When power is applied it lights up within a second
[22:02] <Dan-K2VOL> the wire lights up
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> very nice
[22:02] <Dan-K2VOL> that's 6v @ 2A I think
[22:04] <Dan-K2VOL> you'd need to cover it in something to shield it from wind gusting while it heats, but a small styrofoam box just larger than the PCB works fine, just poke holes in the box and run the rope through, and tie on to the top bar of the PCB. The PCB will hold the box up
[22:05] <Dan-K2VOL> we're using that INSIDE speedball-1 to cut through our suspension loop that leads up to the balloon
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> that is nice
[22:05] <Dan-K2VOL> both ends will release on speedball, pulling out two separate holes in the payload box
[22:07] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: How much additional dry ice do you think is necessary? 10 lbs or so?
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[22:10] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm really not sure, I'll stop by there in 20 minutes though to check.
[22:10] <Dan-K2VOL> could still have a bunch
[22:10] <Zuph> I know. Else do we have to cold test?
[22:10] <Dan-K2VOL> still below our target test
[22:10] <Dan-K2VOL> temp
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> Dan-K2VOL thanks for the link
[22:10] <Dan-K2VOL> oh the video?
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> there are interesting videos
[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
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[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> and the other ones on the channel
[22:11] <Dan-K2VOL> you're welcome, that's my youtube
[22:11] <Zuph> Sat modem battery draw is all I can think of.
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[22:11] <Dan-K2VOL> thanks for thinking they're interesting!
[22:11] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah that's the main one, hmm
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> Dan-K2VOL
[22:11] <Dan-K2VOL> would be nice to put the top on and see how much the electronics heat things up
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> in "Making a Pitot Tube"
[22:12] <Lunar_Lander> what's the song in the background :)?
[22:12] <Dan-K2VOL> we could run the sat modem cable through a rope hole in the top
[22:12] <Dan-K2VOL> haha beats me, run it through shazam or something
[22:12] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> MTX-V5010
[22:13] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:14] <Dan-K2VOL> MPXV-5010
[22:14] <Dan-K2VOL> sorry I wasn't phonetic with that :-P
[22:14] <Lunar_Lander> xD np
[22:14] <fsphil> Stan the Stand?
[22:15] <Dan-K2VOL> you know Brad, honestly we aren't doing a very good long duration test - the daily temperature will increase markedly with the sun-input
[22:15] <Dan-K2VOL> likely to room temperature
[22:15] <Dan-K2VOL> zuph
[22:15] <Zuph> Stan will hold our payload up on the launch pad for pre-launch checkout.
[22:15] <Dan-K2VOL> fsphil , our team has a sense of fun. The payload will likely also fly with googly eyes
[22:15] <fsphil> sweeeet
[22:15] <fsphil> bobby the balloon
[22:15] <Dan-K2VOL> sounds good!
[22:15] <Dan-K2VOL> we'll draw a smiley on it
[22:16] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: No, but how can we accurately gauge temperature swing?
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[22:16] <Dan-K2VOL> we can look at internal SNOX temps
[22:16] <Lunar_Lander> LOL STAN THE STAND
[22:16] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: But our payload will be black :)
[22:17] <Dan-K2VOL> so was SNOX IV :-)
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> Dan-K2VOL
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> nice x-mas tree
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[22:18] <Dan-K2VOL> Lunar_Lander
[22:18] <Dan-K2VOL> lol wha?
[22:18] <fsphil> love that burst video
[22:18] <Dan-K2VOL> oh boy how far back does my channel go
[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> when the payload is turned on in the newest video
[22:18] <fsphil> with the pitch black sky
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[22:19] <Dan-K2VOL> ahh
[22:19] <Dan-K2VOL> oh yeah fsphil that is a cool one
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> you used all LEDs
[22:19] <Dan-K2VOL> that was all Bill Brown's hardware, I just helped him assemble and launch that one
[22:19] <NigelMoby> Virgin media need to go run and jump
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> red, green, yellow and blue
[22:19] <fsphil> no better NigelMoby?
[22:19] <Dan-K2VOL> LEDs for which Lunar_Lander?
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> the most recent video
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> there you switch on the systems
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> and the LEDs are all over the electronics
[22:20] <Dan-K2VOL> ah, those will al be removed for flight
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[22:20] <Dan-K2VOL> a very aggregious waste of power
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:20] <NigelMoby> Nope Phil they sending new modem out Friday :/
[22:20] <Dan-K2VOL> gtg all, ttyl
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> are the white LEDs some kind of strobe?
[22:21] <Dan-K2VOL> yes
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> oh cu later
[22:21] <Dan-K2VOL> it's in place of a xenon strobe
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:21] <Dan-K2VOL> Carl Lyster also built that
[22:21] <Dan-K2VOL> 5v 60mA
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> xenon strobe needs hi voltage I think
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:21] <Dan-K2VOL> xenon strobe module will create high voltage, which can jump over to 12v power lines in the thin air
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> not good
[22:22] <Dan-K2VOL> unlikely at 35,000 ft, but I've had it happen on UX-3 at 95,000 ft
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[22:22] <fsphil> that's a heck of a payload
[22:22] <Dan-K2VOL> when a camera flash went off that wasn't supposed to in the payload an fried everything
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> sparking is a big problem up there
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[22:22] <Dan-K2VOL> lol fsphil, it is. would be a bit simpler if we weren't trying to collect so much science data
[22:23] <Dan-K2VOL> ttyl
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[22:24] <Lunar_Lander> interesting that he has the mainboard vertically
[22:25] <Zuph> All the flight boards are horizonal
[22:26] <griffonbot> Received email: Davejay <dave.jones@davejay.co.uk> "[UKHAS] Re: Radio receiver - handheld vs 'mobile'?"
[22:26] <MrCraig> Well, I just tried the transmitter driven by the PIC for the second time - and discovered that my brother theifed my only remaining jacking cable when he came to stay a couple weeks back - so I can hear the grunting sound but can't push it into the PC.
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[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> a german group made a vertical payload in 2004
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> they had the batteries on top
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> subsequently, the batteries smashed the boards on impact
[22:27] <Zuph> hah
[22:27] <fsphil> MrCraig, mic input?
[22:28] <MrCraig> you mean use a mic?
[22:28] <fsphil> yea
[22:28] <fsphil> it's not perfect but it works :)
[22:28] <MrCraig> I'll give that a shot in a few mins thanks - I'd not considered it.
[22:29] <Elwell> wq2
[22:30] <Elwell> ahem
[22:30] <MrCraig> though I doubt it's going to work right out of the stable - my electronics skills would be considered heresy by many and I should read the PIC datasheet again.
[22:30] <fsphil> Elwell, command not recognised
[22:32] <Elwell> fsphil: lagged ssh
[22:33] <fsphil> hey I've typed a lot worse into an irc channel :)
[22:33] <fsphil> ping Upu
[22:34] <Upu> pong
[22:34] <Upu> evening
[22:34] <fsphil> oh that was quick
[22:34] <Upu> yeah it flashed up
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[22:34] <fsphil> you've one of those little cameras that tim used?
[22:34] <Upu> yep newer version but effectively the same
[22:35] <fsphil> are they any good?
[22:35] <griffonbot> Received email: "Rob, M0DTS" <rswinbank@gmail.com> "Re: [UKHAS] Re: Radio receiver - handheld vs 'mobile'?"
[22:35] <Upu> quality is so so
[22:35] <Upu> but they are £50
[22:35] <fsphil> eek
[22:35] <fsphil> I thought they where cheaper
[22:35] <Upu> vs £300 for a Go Pro HD
[22:35] <Upu> I think with delivery it was £50 you can get cheaper ones
[22:36] <fsphil> I was thinking of something to film the balloon burst
[22:37] <Upu> yeah only issue is I just ran it flat
[22:37] <Upu> and you get about 2 hours just
[22:37] <Upu> in a nice warm room
[22:37] <Upu> so mines going to have some external power
[22:38] <fsphil> it's an HD camera?
[22:38] <Upu> well internal to the payload
[22:38] <Upu> no
[22:39] <Upu> if this works and I get it back I might get a GoPro HD
[22:40] <Upu> but that is alot of money
[22:40] <fsphil> yea, a big risk launching that
[22:40] <fsphil> but the videos are amazing
[22:41] <Darkside> :D
[22:45] <Upu> its going to happen
[22:45] <Upu> I just want to test everything a few times first
[22:45] <Upu> I'm doing this for the pics :)
[22:46] <Upu> anyway I'm calling it a night o7
[22:46] <fsphil> night Upu!
[22:46] <MrCraig> night Upu
[22:47] <fsphil> I don't think I'd risk a gopro here, there's just to much water around
[22:47] <RocketBoy> the issue with the GoPros is the massive wide angle/fish eye effect - I hate the footage were the earth curvature goes negative when its in the bottom half of the frame - yuch
[22:47] <fsphil> hehe .. also the curved horizon is a bit of a cheat too :)
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> hello RocketBoy
[22:48] <RocketBoy> fsphil: yeah if its anywher above the centre of the frame
[22:48] <RocketBoy> Lunar_Lander: yo
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
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[22:55] <RocketBoy> busy - what with work, balloon developments and balloon sales
[22:56] <RocketBoy> I seem to sell several balloons a week now
[22:58] <natrium42> RocketBoy: is it just to UK?
[22:58] <RocketBoy> natrium42: nope - about 50% of my sales are into europe
[22:58] <natrium42> ah, cool
[22:59] <RocketBoy> sometimes further afield
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> he sold one to Germany :)
[22:59] <RocketBoy> several
[23:00] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:04] <fsphil> as a hobby it's really taken off lately
[23:04] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:05] <RocketBoy> anyone know why the outer layer of MLI is gold on spacecraft?
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: People should be cautious about it bursting, and crashing to earth though.
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> RocketBoy: gold has lower IR remissivity
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> AIUI
[23:05] <MrCraig> yeah - I thought I was getting involved in something pretty unusual until I discovered #ukhas and then I start coming across people doing it all over.
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:05] <fsphil> SpeedEvil, :p
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> 69 entities.
[23:06] Action: SpeedEvil remembers when all this was fields.
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[23:07] <RocketBoy> SpeedEvil: ta - that sounds right
[23:07] <MrCraig> I've not even built the payload yet for mission 1 and already I'm planning to bust the altitude record in mission 2 <grin>
[23:07] <fsphil> a fields with gophers
[23:07] <fsphil> -s
[23:08] <fsphil> ooh sounds like a challenge MrCraig !
[23:08] <Lunar_Lander> the 40 km one?
[23:08] <MrCraig> If you're up for it fsphil :-)
[23:09] <fsphil> it'll be the one after the next :)
[23:10] <fsphil> I wonder how much weight the shield of the ntx2 is...
[23:10] <MrCraig> wow, going for gold there
[23:10] <fsphil> it's no fun if there's no pics though!
[23:11] <MrCraig> solder it veeery close to the board to save on the gram or so of pcb leg?
[23:11] <fsphil> lol
[23:11] <fsphil> forget the pcb, solder the IC directly
[23:11] <MrCraig> smooth
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[23:14] <fsphil> to be honest I'll just be happy to recover it again afterwards :)
[23:14] <MrCraig> yeah - shame about the yorkshire moores landing
[23:15] <fsphil> pesky hills
[23:16] <MrCraig> How long until google updates their photography and you can scan google maps for it sector by sector? :-/
[23:16] <fsphil> well if where I live is anything to go by, never
[23:17] <fsphil> I'll be over in the summer and have a look about
[23:17] <MrCraig> :-( I fear the same thing happening to my first flight. I'm trying to make the decision on camera because if I lose a payload I'd like it to be the cheapest camera the world has ever seen, but if I recover fine I want it to be the highest quality camera possible.
[23:18] <fsphil> I was lucky with that, the Canon A560 I used was of ebay -- about £10
[23:18] <fsphil> cheap and good
[23:19] <fsphil> the sd card cost more !
[23:19] <MrCraig> I think I'm safe to go for one of these 'throw away snaps' camera's with high mega-pixel. They're cheaper because they don't have exciting lenses but I figure infitite focus is fine, a lense isn't going to matter up top.
[23:19] <MrCraig> ouch yeah, that's going to be the cost - memory.
[23:19] <fsphil> very true
[23:20] <fsphil> the gps and the sd card where the most expensive bits of hadie 2
[23:20] <MrCraig> which gps?
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[23:20] <fsphil> well, not counting the balloon and the gas but they don't count :)
[23:20] <fsphil> fsa03
[23:21] <fsphil> nice little module, but fragile antenna
[23:21] <MrCraig> btw, remember when I needed the lassenIQ cable? Well I bought one - because of packing and the mistake I made on the shopping cart, that little cable ended up costing around £15 lol (weeps)
[23:21] <fsphil> ooch!
[23:21] <fsphil> does it work?
[23:21] <MrCraig> well I've not tested it on the device but I did test continuity - it's fine.
[23:22] <fsphil> little tiny headers are scary
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[23:23] <fsphil> there are some cheap-ish gsm modules out there, but the connector is a nightmarish little surface mount thing
[23:24] <MrCraig> I have an old pay as you go mobile that isn't worth the mazuma effort - I think I can either recover partial circuitry from it, or else just use the entire pcb with the micro attached to it's keypad. I'll investigate that before launch but it's not part if my plans at the moment.
[23:25] <MrCraig> also - in terms of cheap-ish - A friend told me about a mobile deal for <£3 so if a phone can be canibalized that'd be the way to go.
[23:25] <fsphil> some of the nokia phones have a ttl serial port on the boards
[23:25] <MrCraig> this thing is a motorola that sings "hello moto" as it starts up hehe.
[23:27] <fsphil> £3 for a phone is crazy
[23:28] <MrCraig> tbh - more scarey even than the connectors is the amount I have to learn here. I don't trust my circuitry, I need to learn kicad or eagle, I need to learn how to export to g-code and cut the board. I need to learn to code the chip. Loads to do.
[23:28] <MrCraig> yeah I thought so too, it's some deal where the website gets a commission and gives back a percentage - combined with a discount deal.
[23:28] <fsphil> there are advantages to strip-board
[23:28] <MrCraig> oh?
[23:28] <MrCraig> no software to learn? lol
[23:28] <fsphil> it's easy for people like me who don't want to learn eagle :)
[23:29] <MrCraig> I'll be honest I'm happy to learn it, it's just fining time and I'm itching to get going on this project.
[23:29] <fsphil> keeps me from using those funky smd devices though
[23:29] <MrCraig> I may buy coppercad - it doesn't do the schematic part, just designs the copper pads.
[23:29] <NigelMoby> Eagle is evil!!!
[23:29] <fsphil> every time I start an eagle project, something goes bad
[23:29] <MrCraig> Ever tried target 3001?
[23:30] <Lunar_Lander> LOL HELLO MOTO
[23:30] <fsphil> never heard of it
[23:30] <MrCraig> it's marketing is cheap and cheery but it seems to be pretty potent - it's commercial but has a feature limited freebie.
[23:30] <MrCraig> lol it plays a tune too Lunar_Lander
[23:30] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[23:31] <MrCraig> yeah - if I can replace the prom in it I want to replace the tune with the prodigy hotride
[23:31] <fsphil> appropriate choice
[23:31] <MrCraig> then it definately earns a place on the balloon
[23:32] <MrCraig> hehe
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[00:00] --- Tue Feb 8 2011