highaltitude.log.20110201

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[00:14] <griffonbot> Received email: Solar Balloonman <billings.stephen75@gmail.com> "[UKHAS] Re: Rocketman HAB parachutes"
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[08:26] <earthshine> morning
[08:54] <Darkside> ping juxta
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[09:14] <GW8RAK> Morning All. Just been sent this link and wondering if these guys are on here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12323098
[09:21] <fsphil> I don't think they are
[09:25] <fsphil> 37km is impressive if it's true
[09:25] <Darkside> "thought to" have reached 37km..
[09:25] <fsphil> wonder why the artical is uncertain
[09:25] <fsphil> yea, what's up with that
[09:25] <Darkside> if they had gps tracking, why didn't it work
[09:25] <Darkside> maybe it lost lock at 10km or something
[09:26] <Darkside> n00bs :P
[09:26] <fsphil> haha
[09:26] <fsphil> there's a video on youtube about it, but I'm at work and can't watch it yet
[09:26] <Colin-G8TMV> it looks like they did SMS tracking - the phone may have got confused high up seeming so many cells
[09:27] <fsphil> http://www.youtube.com/user/shefunimecheng
[09:27] <Darkside> bah sms tracking
[09:27] <Darkside> i would never trust phone networks up that high
[09:27] <fsphil> I don't trust them on the ground
[09:28] <Darkside> looks like they didn't have a radar reflector
[09:28] <Darkside> do you guys need to fly them?
[09:29] <fsphil> nope
[09:29] <Darkside> ahh ok
[09:30] <fsphil> maybe for larger balloons, but they'd probably show up on radar anyway
[09:31] <Darkside> not necessarily
[09:32] <fsphil> true, latex doesn't reflect radio too well
[09:32] <juxta> hi Darkside
[09:32] <Darkside> hey juxta did you get my email?
[09:32] <juxta> yeah just saw it
[09:32] <Darkside> i'm a bit iffy about it
[09:33] <Darkside> if the elec eng department is in control of the marketing for it, then fine
[09:33] <Darkside> if its ECMS doing it, then i'd be a bit more concerned
[09:33] <Darkside> i don't like ECMS's marketing department
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[09:49] <Keith_L> morning all.... I would like some newbie questions to high altitude ballooning answered if possible?
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> Keith_L: Shoot.
[09:51] <Keith_L> If we want to launch from cambridge, what do we need to do?
[09:51] <SpeedEvil> You mean the site with the already existing NOTAM?
[09:51] <Keith_L> The Site UKHAS launch from...yes
[09:52] <SpeedEvil> Unsure who deals with that - I've not paid any attention when it's come up before, owing to cambridge being ratehr too far to walk. :)
[09:52] <Keith_L> lol... What about launching from elsewhere?
[09:53] <Keith_L> as we were also considering launching in Wiltshire
[09:53] <SpeedEvil> As I understand it, the process is not onerous.
[09:53] <SpeedEvil> You need to do some simple form-filling, and wait till the beurocracy grinds through and out pops your application.
[09:54] <SpeedEvil> But I've not actually done it.
[09:54] <Keith_L> OK...so relatively easy
[09:55] <SpeedEvil> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:faq has a few details
[09:58] <Keith_L> ok...whats the best material to construct the capsule containing the payload. We were thinking Balsa wood and Polystyrene?
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> Generally just polystyrene is fine
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> It doesn't really have to be very physically strong.
[09:59] <SpeedEvil> Ideally, you want to be happy with it landing on your head.
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[10:00] <SpeedEvil> Or at least be little more than 'Ow!'
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[10:02] <fsphil> imaging it landing on an expensive car too :)
[10:03] <Keith_L> ok
[10:04] <Keith_L> how do you keep the electronics warm? Chemical hand warmers?
[10:04] <SpeedEvil> Generally, the box is fine. The electronics tends to put out most of a watt - several if there is a camera in there
[10:06] <Keith_L> we have two mini 2MP video cameras : http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=777_1&products_id=109557&PHPSESSID=gm7rp1cr29ad0ackd1id4gscu5
[10:06] <Keith_L> and need to get a photo camera. What's the best camera to use?
[10:07] <SpeedEvil> Canon ones that can be used with CHDK are popular
[10:07] <Keith_L> oh right...so the shooting can be delayed
[10:07] <SpeedEvil> http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK
[10:07] <SpeedEvil> And you can get it to take pics without resorting to stuff like taping the button down
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[10:08] <Keith_L> cool...we were thinking of getting some electronics to activate the trigger at a certain height, but this sounds easier.
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> There is little reason generally not to take picss on the way up too
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> It also helps keep the camera warm, avoiding moisture issues
[10:09] <SpeedEvil> And stuff like the lens not coming out at -20C
[10:10] <Keith_L> So with that software can you set intervals when to take pictures?
[10:11] <SpeedEvil> yes
[10:12] <Keith_L> ok...canon powershot we need!
[10:13] <Keith_L> Is there any way to attend someone elses launch to see the process first hand?
[10:14] <SpeedEvil> Probably, yes. Join the mailing list, to see about who's likely to be lanching, or hang out here. It tends to be more active ~6-10PM
[10:15] <Colin-G8TMV> Keith_L: also get involved with tracking. Are you a Ham?
[10:16] <Keith_L> No I'm not a Ham.
[10:17] <Keith_L> A colleague is doing the electronics and that side of things
[10:17] <Keith_L> I used to use CB radio years ago.... but never progressed to Ham
[10:17] <Colin-G8TMV> then you might want to consider it - at least get involved with some local hams so you have some people to do tracking for you
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> Or if in cambridge...
[10:18] <Colin-G8TMV> You know it's *much* easier now?
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> The tracker still has the last flight.
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[10:18] <SpeedEvil> Mouseover the blue line of flight of the balloon.
[10:18] <Colin-G8TMV> SpeedEvil: I think that might have been a record for number of trackers
[10:19] <SpeedEvil> You will see lines moving - these are pointers to which recievers picked it up.
[10:19] <SpeedEvil> These are people running the fl-digi software, hooked to a radio
[10:19] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I see mouseover doesn't work now, for some reason. But click any point, and see the recievers: line
[10:20] <Keith_L> Yeah...saw that earlier
[10:20] <Keith_L> So we need a ham radio to track?
[10:21] <SpeedEvil> Generally, yes.
[10:21] <Colin-G8TMV> it's the easiest way
[10:21] <Keith_L> we were considering google latitude?
[10:21] <Colin-G8TMV> the alternative is to fly a mobile phone that has been hacked to send SMS messages
[10:21] <russss> you don't generally get mobile coverage at >2km
[10:22] <Colin-G8TMV> Keith_L: most people use a Radiometrx NTX2
[10:22] <Colin-G8TMV> Radiometrix
[10:23] <Keith_L> OK...we will be data logging everything to storage in the capsule. We are considering the telemetry too.
[10:23] <Keith_L> I'll look at that and forward to our technical guy
[10:23] <Colin-G8TMV> You need good reliable telemetry to find it after it lands!
[10:25] <russss> people have had decent success with SMS for locating the payload on the ground though.
[10:25] <Keith_L> I know Google latitude uses GPS to track and displays it on google maps...it's normally accurate withing a meter. But the telemtry option does sound the best to me.
[10:25] <Keith_L> we were looking to use latitude as a second source of position.
[10:25] <Keith_L> a bit of redundancy
[10:26] <fsphil> redundancy is good
[10:26] <SpeedEvil> Google latitude uses GPS tot track - but relies on mobile coverage to get the data back
[10:26] <Keith_L> indeed...so as long as it lands in a good coverage area!!
[10:27] <SpeedEvil> A good coverage area can be a poor coverage area if you're 4cm from the ground, and pointed the wrong way.
[10:28] <Keith_L> ah... that's a good point... not thought that the ground would attenuate!
[10:34] <Keith_L> ok...have alot to think about. I'll defo be back here soon with more questions.... thanks all
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[10:47] <mattltm> Hi guys :)
[10:50] <Darkside> hi
[10:57] <mattltm> Not alot going on in here.
[10:58] <mattltm> Has pico been retrived yet or is it still in it's tree?
[10:58] <NigelMoby> Semi retrieved
[10:58] <SpeedEvil> It fell out, and hit a car.
[10:59] <NigelMoby> Poor pico
[10:59] <SpeedEvil> jc's been in contact with the owner, and seems likley to be able to get it at some point.
[11:00] <mattltm> Cool. Thats good news. Not about the car though. How did it hit a car! I thought it was away from the road?
[11:01] <SpeedEvil> The balloons were not actually deflated
[11:02] <SpeedEvil> So came out of tree,andblew along ground
[11:02] <Colin-G8TMV> not sure it actually hit the car, just gave the driver a shock
[11:02] <NigelMoby> Must've got some altitude though, that field wss fenced off
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[11:15] <fsphil> the gust of wind that freed it might have give it a bit of lift
[11:17] <GW8RAK> it sounds like it may make sense to have a balloon release function which releases the balloons and ensures that dragging can't happen.
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[11:17] <GW8RAK> How to do it for minimal weight could be a problem.
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> And how not to fail on gusts aloft
[11:18] <GW8RAK> lightweight fishing line and a coin cell?
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> ?
[11:18] <NigelMoby> Nichrome would work, not to heavy.
[11:19] <GW8RAK> Attach the balloons with fishing line and short the battery through a heating wire
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> you want to use the main battery really
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[11:20] <GW8RAK> Why the main one? You could drain it and lose beacon transmissions
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[11:20] <SpeedEvil> Well - button cell won't be enough
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> I meant
[11:21] <GW8RAK> Quite possibly.
[11:21] <GW8RAK> But easy to test
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> It won't - there are essentially no high current button cells.
[11:22] <NigelMoby> How much current does it take roughly to heat up?
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> However - a small li-io extra may be an option
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> li-po
[11:22] <GW8RAK> I bow to your superior knowledge. I was jus theorising
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> Hmm
[11:23] <NigelMoby> It'd have to be a 100mah anything else is to heavy
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> String goes through a hole in the top of the payload, and is looped round a pin, so that it goes horizontally. The horizontal bit of string is then looped round a vertical pin, to secure it. A straw sticks out the bottom, and pokes the string off the vertical pin, when it lands, allowing it to detach
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> Hard part is irt's unlikely to be vertical
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[11:25] <NigelMoby> Hmm could work
[11:25] <GW8RAK> Physical release could have problems with orientation.
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> It will
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> Getting it to work when it may be moving hoizontally at 10* the speed vertically is nasty
[11:26] <GW8RAK> Just came up with brilliant idea of an impact release trigger, but landing in trees makes it useless. Doh
[11:27] <NigelMoby> I think the hot wire, activated when below 30m
[11:27] <SpeedEvil> Ideally you'd want something sticking out the bottom that if touched in any direction firmly would pop off
[11:27] <SpeedEvil> NigelMoby: And you have a 100K model from SRTM?
[11:27] <SpeedEvil> NigelMoby: Or a laser-ranger? :)
[11:27] <GW8RAK> That was my idea, but landing in trees would be the problem. However when it then flew off and hit ground it would work
[11:28] <NigelMoby> Get the alt from gps
[11:28] <SpeedEvil> NigelMoby: The earth is, regrettably, not flat.
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[11:29] <NigelMoby> Dam :p
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[11:38] <fsphil> sonar
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[11:41] <NigelMoby> Would work....
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[11:43] <fsphil> would need to be sure it won't see a cloud as the ground though
[11:43] <NigelMoby> Yeah that be bad
[11:43] <fsphil> easily tested though, esp. in this country :)
[11:44] <NigelMoby> Lol yeah normally every time I setup the scope lol
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[12:07] Action: NigeyS recommends smea gets a new isp :|
[12:08] Action: Elwell sets /ignore on JOINS PARTS QUITS
[12:08] <NigeyS> lol
[12:09] <Elwell> esp for slow channels it cuts down the noise substantially
[12:09] <GW8RAK> Wasn't there some discussion about smea recently.
[12:10] <GW8RAK> Logged on and off 2000 times, but never said anything? Or have I got the wrong person?
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[12:12] <Elwell> no, he said he spoke french :-)
[12:12] <Elwell> (but thats all I have in my logs)
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[12:22] <NigeyS> huh there was an icarus launch today ? :|
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[12:26] <SpeedEvil> No
[12:27] <NigeyS> so whats that on the tracker then? :|
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[12:30] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[12:31] <mattltm> Any reason whey pyro cutdowns are a bad idea?
[12:32] <NigeyS> theyre explosive ...
[12:32] <mattltm> and thats a bad thing :)
[12:33] <NigeyS> might put some people off..lol
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> I heard nothing of the icarus flight in here.
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[12:34] <NigeyS> nor me, todays date / time on the tracker .. how odd
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> It popped up on the tracker only for 7 sentances, 3 hours into a flight
[12:34] <NigeyS> ok thats spooky
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> I'd guess a test.
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> Not a real flight
[12:36] <NigeyS> must be
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[12:38] <mattltm> Is there a UK source for the GPSbee?
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> Also - the reciever is in south africa
[12:40] <Colin-G8TMV> mattltm: no
[12:40] <mattltm> Thanks Colin.
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[12:43] <SpeedEvil> http://www.kaper.us/articles/ARTICLE_010313_DavidWoodhall_R.html
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[12:50] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: YouTube - Whitestar prelaunch prep visit to SpacePort Indiana http://bit.ly/fGnYo6 #arhab #WSB #SpacePortIndiana [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/32420395286011904]
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[13:49] <Dan-K2VOL> Morning all
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[13:50] <NigeyS> morning Dan
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[13:50] <marek_> :)
[13:50] <NigeyS> hi marek
[13:51] <Dan-K2VOL> Hi NigeyS
[13:51] <marek_> hi nigey
[13:51] <marek_> :)
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[13:52] <marek_> what do u think about "project space planes" those paper planes?
[13:54] <davidjc> what is the heaviest payload you could get away with on a 350g balloon?
[13:55] <Dan-K2VOL> Use liftwin to find out
[13:55] <Dan-K2VOL> eoss.org
[13:55] <fsphil> depends on what altitude you want to get to
[13:55] <davidjc> what would be considered a "good" m/s accent rate?
[13:55] <Dan-K2VOL> And the heaviest payload you can "get away with" is 5.4 kg
[13:56] <Dan-K2VOL> By law
[13:56] <Dan-K2VOL> That's pretty much standard by international law
[13:56] <Dan-K2VOL> Though some countries are less
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[13:57] <davidjc> Just I have a 500g payload and did some numbers and came out with a 0.56m/s accent rate for a 350g balloon, this seems quite slow? or my numbers are wrong
[13:57] <fsphil> have you played with the burst calculator? http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/calc/
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[13:58] <davidjc> no, thanks for the link
[13:59] <fsphil> you can increase the ascent rate but you sacrifice the altitude and use a lot more helium
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[14:00] <davidjc> thanks for that link , much easier than doing the numbers myself each time
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[14:05] <davidjc> is there a calculator to work out decent rate?
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[14:11] <x-f> this one might be useful - http://www.onlinetesting.net/cgi-bin/descent3.3.cgi
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[14:11] <sasasa> Hi
[14:11] <sasasa> flight still ongoing ?
[14:11] <davidjc> thanks x-f
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[15:01] <NigeyS> must be the day for dodgy internet connections!
[15:03] <fsphil> silly router in my case
[15:04] <NigeyS> that router is always playing up !
[15:08] <fsphil> yea, been meaning to replace it
[15:08] <fsphil> I think it's probably an openwrt bug rather than a hardware problem
[15:09] <NigeyS> ahh, i miss my openwrt linksys, stuck with virgin medias d-link piece of crap :/
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[15:16] <davidjc> In the UK is randomsolutions.co.uk the best site for buying balloons from?
[15:17] <NigeyS> i think you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere else that sells them.
[15:19] <fsphil> yea, I didn't see anywhere else
[15:20] <NigeyS> i did look, but all i got was a headache :/
[15:23] <NigeyS> hi jgrahamc
[15:23] <jgrahamc> Hello
[15:32] <x-f> hey, jgrahamc, you have a nice blog - very well documented progress of your project
[15:32] <jgrahamc> Thanks. Hope people are enjoying it. Trying to share as much as a I can.
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[15:33] <x-f> and thank you for that!
[15:35] <jgrahamc> I also do it for the selfish reason that it keeps me working on the project. If I think that lots of people are following it then I have to finish it!
[15:36] <x-f> i had to read through all your GAGA posts, to finally find out what does "GAGA" stand for :)
[15:38] <jgrahamc> Good point. I probably should repeat that again.
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[15:41] Nick change: TraumaPony -> TraumaKitteh
[15:47] <Laurenceb> lady?
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[15:48] <NigeyS> identity crisis?
[15:48] <Laurenceb> GAGA?
[15:48] <NigeyS> lol
[15:53] <Laurenceb> i dont get why anyone would willingly listen to her
[15:56] <fsphil> Queen?
[15:57] <NigeyS> she / he / it is err .. crapp tbh
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[16:04] <Laurenceb> lady gaga
[16:08] <x-f> GAGA as a HAB project, not THAT creature.
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[16:32] <sbasuita> rah, rah, ah, ah, ah
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[16:44] <Laurenceb> i am putting together a massively unorional piece of sh*t haha
[16:44] <Laurenceb> *unoriginal
[16:45] <NigeyS> lol
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[17:11] <natrium42> Laurenceb: come on, respect your own thesis
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[17:57] <NigeyS> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/01/space_debris/
[17:57] <NigeyS> fun
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[17:59] <SpeedEvil> Interesting
[18:01] <NigeyS> very, about time the mess was cleared up! .. although how that "net" distinguishes between a satellite and space junk i'll never know!
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> It doesn't
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> Any satellite hitting it will be destroyed
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> It will need to be manoevered so it does not hit satellites
[18:05] <NigeyS> oh that'll be fun :|
[18:08] <NigeyS> oh an i see discovery is back on the pad, fingers crossed nothing else decides to break!
[18:08] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> Me too.
[18:09] <NigeyS> can you remember the launch date.. 23rd / 24th feb ?
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> never knew it
[18:12] <NigeyS> 24th .. and theyre planning 135 so atlantis is going up again !
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[18:47] <SAIDias> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160540292331
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[18:47] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> If you're interested in using the same modes, look at the pecs of the tthing, and see if it can do ssb on 433
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[19:23] <MrCraig> evening all
[19:26] <lindi-> I heard you had problems with GPS at high altitudes? which receivers have you tested?
[19:26] <SpeedEvil> Tere is a list on the wiki
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:gps_modules
[19:28] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: ok, how do they react when you hit this COCOM limit?
[19:28] <SpeedEvil> lindi-: Various ways.
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> They either blank the output, or won't generate a position until you go under the limits and power cycle.
[19:29] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: if it emits an error message I can take a look at the binary
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> lindi-: binary?
[19:29] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: I had to modify the firmware already to do RTK
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> Most of the above modules have been used in NMEA mode
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> ah
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> In general, it's not that urgent a problem, as there are a number of GPSs that do it 'right'
[19:30] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: ok
[19:30] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: I was just curious
[19:30] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:31] <lindi-> it's just difficult for me to test
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> We're doing at the moment reception of balloon transmitters at 433MHz and 10mW from around a dozen stations at once.
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> Up to 400Km away
[19:31] <SpeedEvil> Fun.
[19:32] <lindi-> 433MHz, hmm, I think I'm remote controlling my power sockets from computer with that :)
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> Probably.
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> It's enormously longer ranged once you get above the ground clutter, and use a decent receiver and antenna.
[19:32] <lindi-> I could use a balloon as a relay to extend the range...
[19:33] <lindi-> (just joking)
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> I've wondered about using correlation of the recieved signal, to accurately position the balloon.
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> But that requires really good phase measurements, which aren't trivial.
[19:37] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: indeed
[19:37] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: would be interesting to hear how well RTK-GPS would work in a balloon
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> In some ways, we really don't care about position. At all. +-100m is just fine in the air.
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> +-10m is OK on the ground generally
[19:39] <lindi-> sure but it'd be interesting still
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> yup.
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb has done some fun SDR GPS stuff
[19:39] <Laurenceb_> hello
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> At least got to a position from a raw log of GPS signal, and lots of matlab.
[19:39] <Laurenceb_> yep
[19:40] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: SDR?
[19:40] <Laurenceb_> yes, sige sampler from sparkfun
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> edmoore was planning a custom-GPS, to avoid the limits - for rocketry.
[19:40] <Laurenceb_> software defined radio
[19:40] <Laurenceb_> itd be easy to cheat
[19:40] <Laurenceb_> log the raw data and process in matlab on the ground
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> sige - micro - spi flash
[19:41] <lindi-> with something like USRP?
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> sige sample from sparkfun
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> *sampler
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> talking of matlab - http://perso.telecom-paristech.fr/~cardoso/guidesepsou.html
[19:41] Action: Laurenceb_ drools
[19:41] <lindi-> "this USB device captures raw GPS data to a binary file on your computer."
[19:42] <lindi-> I don't do non-free software sorry so matlab is kind of out :)
[19:42] <Laurenceb_> octave then
[19:42] Action: Laurenceb_ uses both pretty interchangeably
[19:42] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: ok so that sige sampler basically records pseudorange/phase/doppler data?
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> I have some samples of http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/3447 somewhere - GPS frontend - that I hope to do something with someday
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> lindi-: no - it samples the baseband
[19:43] <Laurenceb_> no, a few mhz of baseband
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> lindi-: nothing complex.
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> lindi-: then you pull it out, and do all the normal signal processing digitally.
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[19:43] <Laurenceb_> costas loop and delay locked loop
[19:43] <lindi-> ok so you need a lot of memory?
[19:43] <Laurenceb_> to use the provided driver, yes
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> as its a massive fudge
[19:44] <lindi-> ah but you have an x86 in the balloon?
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> someone was supposed to be writing a linux driver.. not sure what happened
[19:44] <lindi-> micro = microcontroller?
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> the sige is spi interfaced, so stick a micro between it and the flash
[19:44] <Laurenceb_> yes
[19:45] <Laurenceb_> probably easier with the maxim one speedevil has
[19:45] <lindi-> ok
[19:45] <Laurenceb_> as sige samples are a pain tog et
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[19:45] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: do you know anything about cheap RTK-GPS antennas?
[19:45] <lindi-> trimble seems to be the cheapest brand
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> You mean other than simple helix antennas?
[19:46] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: I think they need to have a stable phase center
[19:47] <lindi-> but I really don't know about hardware that much
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure about antennas, never looked at them.
[19:47] <lindi-> I think antenna is my bottleneck at the moment
[19:49] <Laurenceb_> i worked on a commercial sdr gps project, and we couldnt even get hold of the sige sales rep
[19:49] <Laurenceb_> used maxim in the end
[19:49] <lindi-> :)
[19:49] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: what's the commercial motivation for doing sdr gps?
[19:49] <Laurenceb_> limits
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> itar etc
[19:50] <lindi-> altitude limits?
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> and speed
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> well itar doesnt apply directly
[19:50] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: aha, can't you just modify the firmware of existing gps devices? ;)
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> Stuff like jerk, and filtering.
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> but the us stuff is itar
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> For example, if you have a IMU, if you tie it intimately into the GPS state engine, you can get lots better performance.
[19:51] <Laurenceb_> also you cant charge UKP1M for a hacked $50 gps
[19:51] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: anyways thanks for the sparkfun link, I didn't know you could build your own GPS receiver that easily
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> Firmware hacking can be hard.
[19:51] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: UKP1M?
[19:51] <Laurenceb_> yeah, all the hardware acceleration is undocuments
[19:51] <Laurenceb_> £1000000
[19:51] <lindi-> ah
[19:51] <Laurenceb_> what youll pay for a custom mil spec gps
[19:51] <lindi-> well I'm trying to do this as cheaply as possible
[19:52] <Laurenceb_> heh
[19:53] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: http://finhack.org/2010/finhack2010-rtklib-lindfors.odp is a quick intro on what I have done so far
[19:54] <Laurenceb_> ah openoffice
[19:54] <Laurenceb_> Stallman is happy
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[19:54] <lindi-> I don't think stallman likes openoffice :)
[19:54] <Laurenceb_> ah wow
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> lindi-: I assume you're not happy with a soldering iron?
[19:54] <Laurenceb_> you did the openmoko gps?
[19:54] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: I modified the firmware only
[19:55] <Laurenceb_> ah
[19:55] <Laurenceb_> hang on...
[19:55] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: I try to avoid soldering iron if possible
[19:55] <Laurenceb_> at one point openmoko was sdr
[19:55] <Laurenceb_> for the gps
[19:55] <Laurenceb_> this looks like ublox
[19:55] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: yeah gta01 required a non-free daemon
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: SDR is a bit overstating it - somewhat. The ftontend had correlators and stuff.
[19:55] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: that's why I didn't buy it but waited for gta02 :)
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> Which we got sort-of-working, but not really.
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> Then GTA02 was announced to have a different GPS, and the project kinda tailed off
[19:56] <lindi-> yeah I remember when I was wondering on whether to buy gta01 or not
[19:56] <lindi-> I'm very happy that I waited :)
[19:57] <Laurenceb_> itd be interesting to use it as a SDR-GPS testbed
[19:57] <lindi-> Laurenceb_: gta01?
[19:57] <Laurenceb_> but without good documentation, a real pain
[19:57] <Laurenceb_> yes
[19:57] <lindi-> ok
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: It's not simple SDR - and the specs were never fully worked out.
[19:58] <Laurenceb_> it many ways with something undocumented, itd be better to start from scratch
[19:58] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> We got to the point that with a 12 hour averaging, you could in principle get a position to about 1500km
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> Which - well...
[19:58] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: very useful
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> Hadn't worked out how to extract the nav messages and timing.
[20:00] <lindi-> my current plan is to test if a rotating receiver could be used to cancel out phase center variations that depend on the signal direction
[20:01] <lindi-> since my "do it cheaply" plan really does not include a proper calibration setup for modeling the antenna
[20:01] <lindi-> (and I don't know the math either)
[20:02] <SpeedEvil> http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/legos/legos.html
[20:02] <SpeedEvil> proper calibration setup
[20:02] <lindi-> SpeedEvil: heh
[20:03] <lindi-> not a bad idea
[20:04] <SpeedEvil> I'm pondering doing that with my n900
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[21:28] <fsphil> every little reboot helps: http://i.imgur.com/MCu2D.jpg
[21:29] <natrium42> lol, why would they run windows?
[21:29] <fsphil> no idea
[21:29] <fsphil> but it's not working for them
[21:30] <natrium42> it makes no sense to use it over linux
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[21:42] <Laurenceb_> its probably windows with an interface written in flash
[21:42] <natrium42> LOL
[21:42] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[21:42] <natrium42> <3 Laurenceb_
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> heh
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> ie6 set to run at bootup
[21:46] Action: fsphil is putting android on a freerunner, just cause
[21:49] <The-Compiler> hehe
[21:50] <fsphil> was very disappointed with the freerunner
[21:50] <fsphil> it's a pretty lousy phone
[21:51] <Laurenceb_> but but but
[21:52] <Laurenceb_> STALLMAN SAYS
[21:52] <fsphil> he's saying nothing, cause you can't make calls half the time
[21:52] <fsphil> yay, it booted
[21:53] <Laurenceb_> tbh i dont see the point of smartphones
[21:53] Action: Laurenceb_ prefers netbook + "dumb" phone
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> It can be awkward to carry a netbook everywhere.
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> Phone just goes in pocket.
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> runs fldigi, ...
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[21:56] <fsphil> I was thinking of putting something on this phone for tracking with
[21:57] <fsphil> not fldigi, but just something that queries the position and displays
[21:57] <Dan-K2VOL> Look for APRS apps possibly, there are several for iPhone
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[22:02] <fsphil> hmm, it's connecting to the wifi network but not getting online
[22:02] <fsphil> it's fairly slow but it looks good
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[22:23] <Laurenceb_> fsphil: so its failing
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[22:28] <fsphil> yea
[22:28] <fsphil> can't get wifi working at all, or make calls :)
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[00:00] --- Wed Feb 2 2011