highaltitude.log.20110124

[00:06] <Dan-K2VOL> juxta what radio do you have
[00:20] <natrium42> juxta: sup?
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[00:24] <juxta> Dan-K2VOL, I use an IC-706MKIIG in the chase car
[00:24] <juxta> hey vk5gr
[00:24] <vk5gr> juxta - did the hidden link trick work?
[00:25] <juxta> yup - worked a treat, thanks!
[00:25] <juxta> looks like you locked down embeds to projecthorus.org only though?
[00:25] <vk5gr> excellent - let me know when we can open it up this afternoon
[00:25] <vk5gr> yes for the time being - I can go wider if you like - I need to know the server names however
[00:26] <juxta> hmm - can you unlock the embeds to all?
[00:26] <natrium42> juxta: i can't find a timestamp on your blog posts
[00:26] <natrium42> maybe i am just blind?
[00:26] <juxta> heya natrium42
[00:26] <juxta> you're right - looks like it only shows the date, haha
[00:26] <juxta> I guess that's just the theme
[00:27] <natrium42> where?
[00:27] <natrium42> i don't see anything :S
[00:27] <juxta> in tabs on the left hand side of the blog post title
[00:27] <vk5gr> ok - i think I have now got it open for embedding anywhere - but not displaying on vimeo
[00:27] <natrium42> oh, whoops
[00:27] <Dan-K2VOL> juxta
[00:27] <natrium42> my window was too small, so i didn't see it XD
[00:27] <juxta> vk5gr, yup, that seems to be working
[00:28] <juxta> haha, whoops
[00:28] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd love to hear how you get that working, I have the IC-707 here, which I think is command compatible with your rig
[00:28] <Dan-K2VOL> juxta ^^
[00:28] <juxta> sure, I'll let you know Dan-K2VOL :)
[00:45] <juxta> hey natrium42, I had a play with Kinect the other night
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[01:36] <Zuph> Yahoo, done with Teflon wire!
[02:02] <stilldavid> true baller status. what's the wire for?
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[02:07] <Zuph> stilldavid: Everything on Speedball-1
[02:07] <stilldavid> why teflon? and how much $/ft was it?
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[02:26] <Dan-K2VOL> it wasn't too bad, but the teflon gaurantees that the insulation won't crack in the cold. It was really a holdover from the internal sensor wiring of the envelope, and since we had it we just used it in the payload where stuff isn't liable to move anyway
[02:26] <Dan-K2VOL> stilldavid
[02:26] <stilldavid> ah, so it's to protect from cold.
[02:32] <natrium42> teflon is one of the best materials ever invented
[02:32] <natrium42> if you don't agree, you are wrong
[02:32] <stilldavid> polytetrafluoroethylene
[02:32] <stilldavid> there's a mouthful for you
[02:33] <natrium42> stand back, i am doing science! :)
[02:35] <stilldavid> ...it is the only known surface to which a gecko cannot stick.
[02:35] <SpeedEvil> stilldavid: lava
[02:36] <SpeedEvil> A butter mountain
[02:36] <juxta_> I have teflon tires on my car, they are rubbish
[02:36] <stilldavid> juxta_, hehe
[02:39] <juxta_> I just discovered that we have overvoltage on the mains, stuff here is shutting off :(
[02:40] <Zuph> stilldavid: Wire just won't crack in the cold. Probably not a big deal inside the payload box, but why not, eh?
[02:40] <stilldavid> Zuph, seriously, if you've got it
[02:40] <stilldavid> I'm not planning on it :P
[02:40] <Zuph> It was $6 / 25ft, so not cheap, but not too too bad.
[02:40] <stilldavid> a lot cheaper than I was expecting, actually
[02:49] <stilldavid> anybody know any information about this launch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVzfaC0KL_k
[02:49] <stilldavid> also: why would you inflate anywhere remotely near a barbed-wire fence?
[02:52] <juxta_> heh
[02:52] <juxta_> we've been in that exact situation a few times
[02:52] <stilldavid> http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~lpsu/node/275
[02:53] <stilldavid> my avatar was taken on top of that mountain :)
[02:54] <stilldavid> http://www.flickr.com/photos/stilldavid/626805192/in/set-72157600490920421/
[02:56] <juxta_> wow
[02:56] <juxta_> that's a nice shot :)
[02:56] <stilldavid> just excited for the "small world" moment I just had :)
[03:53] <k-man> do any launches ever happen in NSW close(ish) to Sydney?
[04:06] <Darkside> juxta_: hey
[04:06] <Darkside> talk went well
[04:06] <juxta_> hey Darkside
[04:06] <juxta_> excellent :)
[04:06] <Darkside> great reaction to the video
[04:06] <juxta_> hehe
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[05:13] <stilldavid> Dan-K2VOL: wow! good luck :)
[05:20] <Dan-K2VOL> stilldavid eh?
[05:20] <stilldavid> just reading email.
[05:21] <Dan-K2VOL> ahh
[05:21] <Dan-K2VOL> yes, time to kick some ass and launch balloons
[05:21] <Zuph> Need bigger balloon team!
[05:21] <stilldavid> me too :(
[05:21] <Dan-K2VOL> People? Balloons are make of people! AAAAHHHHH!!!!
[05:22] <stilldavid> I'm an army of one ... trying to debug this stupid APRS tracker
[05:22] <Dan-K2VOL> sorry getting late here
[05:22] <stilldavid> Dan-K2VOL: uh... more red bull?
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[05:34] <Darkside> juxta_: your old payload still works
[05:35] <juxta_> of course it does ;p
[05:35] <Darkside> haha
[05:35] <Darkside> im gonna try and get it to get lock
[05:35] <juxta_> okie doke
[05:35] <juxta_> it takes a while
[05:35] <juxta_> the trimble modules are not very sensitive
[05:37] <Darkside> heh
[05:37] <Darkside> yeeeah
[05:37] <Darkside> anyway, the video was *very* well received
[05:41] <juxta_> awesome :)
[06:10] <Darkside> noooo gps lock where it is
[06:10] <Darkside> oh well
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[11:14] <fsphil> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12253228
[11:15] <fsphil> bit of a waste
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[11:22] <GW8RAK> Bit of a gimic.
[11:23] <GW8RAK> Since it can't use any GSM functions, all they are doing is using the processing power and cheapness
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> And reasonable lightness
[11:51] <hornblower> The know the value of marketting, certainly
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[13:40] <Laurenceb> df3120 would be more suitable
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[13:59] <NigeyS> afternoon
[14:04] <fsphil> g'day
[14:05] <Colin_> bon apres midi
[14:05] <NigeyS> hey fsphil, Colin_
[14:05] <NigeyS> trust me to wake up with a dam cold again :( bad throat and bar ear sucks!
[14:08] <Colin_> NigeyS: you need to self-medicate from the brown bottle
[14:08] <NigeyS> whisky? :D
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[14:08] <Colin_> single-malt
[14:08] <NigeyS> oh actually i have a bottle of jack from xmas .. hmm
[14:10] <NigeyS> hey jkominar
[14:10] <jkominar> Mornin'
[14:10] <jkominar> (Canada, eh? :)
[14:11] <NigeyS> what time is it there?
[14:11] <jkominar> 9:11am
[14:11] <NigeyS> bah want to swap time zones? :P
[14:11] <jkominar> Just starting the day
[14:11] <jkominar> It's what, 2:30pm there?
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[14:12] <NigeyS> 2:11pm yup :(
[14:12] <NigeyS> hey gw8RAK
[14:12] <jkominar> Hey, at least your day is almost over :p
[14:12] <hornblower> gosh already
[14:12] <hornblower> it's one of those days where you get to 2.11 but still haven't really started achieving anything
[14:12] <NigeyS> jkominar, good point! :D
[14:12] <jkominar> It's probably also not -20C (pre-windchill) over there ;-)
[14:13] <NigeyS> hornblower, know the feeling, been awake since 8am and havent even turned the soldering iron on yet :/
[14:13] <NigeyS> jkominar, feel free to keep your -20 ;)
[14:14] <jkominar> yeah :( tell me about it. Our balloon is nearly ready to go, but weather is probably going to keep us from launching until March now. It's just too damned cold to want to be out side monkeying with small bits and bobs when your fingers go numb after about 30 seconds of exposure.
[14:14] <NigeyS> crikey yeah, but march? thats a loooooong way away :(
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[14:15] <jkominar> It is ... February probably won't be all that much warmer though, and I'm travelling for the last week of it anyhow, so it's looking like March at the earliest at this point
[14:15] <NigeyS> ah that sux, but cant help the weather i guess
[14:16] <jkominar> nope
[14:16] <NigeyS> Moscow's Domodedovo airport - the busiest in the Russian capital - is hit by an explosion with 10 people reported killed.
[14:16] <jkominar> more time to make sure we have everything in order for the launch ...
[14:16] <NigeyS> hm
[14:16] <NigeyS> yup, double check, triple check etc etc :D
[14:17] <hornblower> NigeyS, what are you soldering?
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[14:18] <NigeyS> ive got to put some headers on a ftdi breakout, and some more headers onto the atlas pcb for the pico launch, nothing to major
[14:18] <hornblower> cool. you're launching something pico?
[14:19] <NigeyS> hopefully, if i can keep the weight down
[14:19] <hornblower> what is the dfn of pico?
[14:20] <NigeyS> its a 100g or less payload using foil ballons .. hoping to super pressure at 5km
[14:20] <hornblower> ok fun
[14:20] <hornblower> so you could float across the uk
[14:21] <NigeyS> in theory, mine will probably go swimming though
[14:22] <hornblower> although if in wales the winds should be on your side
[14:23] <Colin_> NigeyS: time for a cutdown system
[14:23] <NigeyS> hornblower, if they blow south im screwed, but anything other than that and i should be ok
[14:24] <hornblower> cool. I guess at 5km the winds are more variable and less inclement
[14:24] <NigeyS> Colin_ been looking into cutdowns
[14:24] <jkominar> NigeyS: So what's on your pico then? With that little weight allowance, I'd assume just a basic tiny tracking mechanism and that's it? Or are you trying to still take pics or something else as well?
[14:24] <NigeyS> very basic, just a ntx2, and gps module, no pics or temp monitoring
[14:24] <fsphil> picopics
[14:24] <NigeyS> lol phil, i got weight issues as it is!
[14:25] <jkominar> Just tape some unexposed film to the bottom of the craft and see what you get!
[14:25] <jkominar> No need for complex mechanical systems
[14:26] <hornblower> temp is always interesting though
[14:26] <NigeyS> true, or a teeny weeny cmos camera
[14:26] <hornblower> you can roughly map it to altitude, I suppose
[14:27] <NigeyS> might be able to do temp, i ordered a 1wire sensor for the ATS launch could use that .. have to see how i'm doing on weight
[14:28] <hornblower> 100g is probably still quite a lot of mass for party balloons anyway
[14:28] <NigeyS> well the 36" balloons will take 66g each, but we're only half filling so im thinking 3 ballons for about 105gm total weight
[14:29] <hornblower> sounds good!
[14:30] <NigeyS> think jame's weight on PicoAtlas was 97g and he had to use 2 large, 2 small, and lose some of the insulation .. ascent rate was very low though, and didnt float
[14:31] <jkominar> So the point of a pico isn't for altitude though right? It's more for float distance?
[14:31] <fsphil> it's a good challenge getting it to <100g
[14:31] <NigeyS> yeah its more the float than altitude
[14:31] <hornblower> mmm. it's like learning to cook in a small kitchen
[14:31] <NigeyS> fsphil, can say that again lol !
[14:31] <hornblower> when you get a big one, you can do some much more thanks to havening learnt to be more organised and careful
[14:31] <jkominar> Because at 100g I'd assume you have little room for any kind of insulation for space-like altitudes, and extra batteries for longer durations, etc.
[14:32] <fsphil> when I consider that hadie:2 was 510g -- and I can't think of much I could remove from that
[14:32] <NigeyS> hornblower, yeah, this is a good learning curve before my main launch
[14:32] <fsphil> well, apart from the Canon A560
[14:32] <hornblower> I got an A560 down to 61g once
[14:33] <NigeyS> :o
[14:33] <hornblower> it took a great deal or surgery
[14:33] <hornblower> of*
[14:33] <fsphil> I bet
[14:33] <hornblower> oh and that was without battery
[14:33] <hornblower> but i think for a minimal payload you'd want a common battery anyway
[14:33] <NigeyS> oh phil did i say james's found me a vreg that might fix the vdrop ? should save me having to use the 2nd lipo
[14:33] <hornblower> a smidge more mass efficient
[14:34] <fsphil> you did -- I hope it works
[14:34] <NigeyS> me to, saving 22grams would be a god send !
[14:36] <Randomskk> NigeyS: running at 3v3 off a lipo?
[14:36] <hornblower> I suspect there must be some chdk cameras that one could operate on and get down to <50g
[14:37] <NigeyS> yeah, but with the vreg and diode its dropping to 2.95 :/
[14:37] <hornblower> if the other half of the payload could be squeezed into 50g...
[14:37] <NigeyS> 50g is hard, lipo is 22gms, gps is 25 .. then you got cables and insulation :/
[14:38] <Randomskk> NigeyS: what vreg are you using? I'd have thought most could do 3v3 from a lipo without significant difficulty
[14:38] <Randomskk> drop the diode? just use a mated connector or such
[14:38] <NigeyS> its a ld1117 ?
[14:38] <hornblower> I suspect gps and lipo and radio could all be brough down lighter. I guess it would take some work though
[14:39] <NigeyS> Randomskk, found this though, should be ideal .. LM1086CT-3.3/NOPB
[14:40] <NigeyS> hornblower, gps and antennae are 1 unit, short of removing the battery you cant save weight on it
[14:41] <hornblower> NigeyS^
[14:41] <NigeyS> dam thats tiny
[14:42] <hornblower> that's just bought for a good chunk of extra mass allowance :)
[14:42] <hornblower> bought you*
[14:42] <fsphil> I bet it works better than your current antenna ;-)
[14:43] <NigeyS> lmao fsphil i think a wire coathanger would work better than the current 1 !
[14:44] <hornblower> oh it definitely would
[14:44] <hornblower> if you just chop it to the right length :)
[14:44] <NigeyS> :p
[14:44] <NigeyS> i actually ordered a new gps unit for the pico last night
[14:46] <NigeyS> http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=210
[14:48] <Colin_> NigeyS: that is okay for a pico, but doesn't work for a big balloon since it stops at 18,000 m alt
[14:50] <NigeyS> yup, thats fine, have a different unit that doesnt have the alt problem for a HA launch
[14:54] <hornblower> I'm now starting to work on a payload to launch into a storm cloud. I've done a rough design, started some PCBs, and met with someone who knows about storm cloud dynamics to try and profile a good mission strategy - where and when to launch, what to expect, how much armor the payload will need. Should be lots of fun!
[14:55] <NigeyS> that's ambitous, but sounds like a neat idea :D lightning protection is a must mind lol !
[14:55] <fsphil> a balloon might not survive that
[14:56] <fsphil> all the big lumps of ice flying about
[14:56] <hornblower> that will be one of the interesting things, yep
[14:56] <fsphil> definitely worth a try though
[14:56] <fsphil> if we only had more storms in this part of the world...
[14:56] <hornblower> they're so stretchy that I'm hoping they might be able to take some bashing at the relatively under-stretched altitudes where most of the ice is
[14:57] <NigeyS> fsphil, if we get a hurricane now i'm blaming you! :p
[14:57] <hornblower> I'd love one!
[14:57] <hornblower> well, once the payload is built
[14:57] <fsphil> haha
[14:57] <NigeyS> lol
[14:58] <NigeyS> go down to the gulf of mexico in the summer, plenty down there for ya ;)
[14:58] <hornblower> who knows, I may yet
[14:58] <NigeyS> or..
[14:58] <NigeyS> whats that place where they get all the tornados ?
[14:59] <hornblower> tornado aleey
[14:59] <hornblower> alley*
[15:00] <hornblower> the great plains between the rockies and the other ones whose name i formget
[15:00] <NigeyS> thats the1, plenty of storms there for ya
[15:01] <hornblower> might be worth practicing on british storms first
[15:01] <NigeyS> we dont really get "Storms" as such .. not comparable to anything in the states
[15:03] <hornblower> lightningy thingamies then :)
[15:04] <NigeyS> haha we get them £100 to whoever surrounds their payload in copper sheet :p
[15:04] <hornblower> I'm a bit apprehensive about how difficult it might be to inflate and handle a balloon in a storm. Experience is lacking!
[15:05] <Laurenceb> hi all
[15:05] <NigeyS> hi laurenceb
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[15:35] <fsphil> I wonder if a lipoly can be trickle charged with a small solar cell
[15:35] <fsphil> without any fancy circuitry
[15:36] <fsphil> could power a simple radio beacon for weeks after landing
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> no
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> At least - you need to add a 4.2v shunt reg
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> and to shutoff the load at 3v
[15:40] <fsphil> ah, so it can't be totally drained or bad things hapen
[15:40] <fsphil> +p
[15:41] <fsphil> I think I was told that before
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[16:46] <Zuph> Morning, HABers
[16:46] <hornblower> hey Zuph
[16:46] <hornblower> how's progress
[16:46] <hornblower> tis brad, isn't it?
[16:46] <fsphil> evening Zuph
[16:46] <Zuph> Yep
[16:47] <hornblower> This is eroomde, except from a machine that doesn't have my private rsa key to ssh into the machine i run my eroomde nick from. so... silly technology (or me)
[16:48] <hornblower> (I made the comment about integrating mass flow in balloon size estimation on the blog)
[16:48] <Zuph> Ah ha
[16:49] <Zuph> Good ideas for mass flow, and I'm interested to see how your sensor works out.
[16:50] <Zuph> We had a member of the hackspace community donate a calibrated orifice to us, so if we had some really good pressure sensor and tanks of air, we could do actual measurements of volume. Unfortunately, at this point the cost+time to benefit function is no longer converging.
[16:50] <hornblower> a calibrated orifice!
[16:51] <Zuph> Well, didn't donate as much as let us borrow.
[16:51] <Zuph> He owns a company that does gas flow measurements.
[16:51] <hornblower> sounds like a good thing to have. just to say you have one. will let you know how the mass flwo rig works out
[16:52] <Zuph> He also gave us quite a lesson on compressible fluid dynamics.
[16:53] <hornblower> Fluids cares me too
[16:53] <hornblower> scares*
[16:54] <Zuph> heh
[16:54] <Zuph> We're at the "Fuck it, let's fly something." stage :-p
[16:54] <hornblower> I sympathise
[16:55] <fsphil> that happened me
[16:55] <fsphil> and it ended up in yorkshire .. so beware :)
[16:55] <Zuph> Hopefully our balloon ends up in Yorkshire!
[16:55] <hornblower> I am super interested in the mass flow system as I'm working towards launching into a storm cloud, and I think inflation will have to be into a very well tather tarpaulin envelope
[16:55] <hornblower> so we won't be able to directly measure neck lift
[16:57] <Zuph> Ah, yes.
[16:58] <Zuph> What sort of data do you hope to get back from the storm cloud?
[17:00] <hornblower> gamma ray flashes mainly
[17:01] <hornblower> and temp, pressure, humidity, high dynamic range gps data, all to try and measure conditions inside
[17:01] <hornblower> but the gamma ray flashes are what piqued my interest
[17:01] <hornblower> your ice sensor is of particular interest in that regard
[17:04] <Zuph> It's of interest to us too. We have no idea if it will work or not :-p
[17:05] <Zuph> We have no way to test clouding conditions at that altitude. We know it detects pretty much any kind of smoke, dust, or water vapor (well, breath) here on the ground, though.
[17:06] Nick change: Burninate-AFK -> Burninate
[17:08] <hornblower> test
[17:08] <hornblower> (ping - had connection issues)
[17:09] <hornblower> could someone please pong back?
[17:09] <jonsowman> pong
[17:09] <hornblower> ta
[17:10] <hornblower> Zuph, http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDAQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ssec.wisc.edu%2F~xjin%2Findex_files%2FXinetal_MODISclouds.pdf&rct=j&q=detecting%20cloud&ei=ObI9Td3FMsfPhAex4NXhCg&usg=AFQjCNGYEK7yG9jxl_zpwTMjdSSSPUkhvA
[17:19] Nick change: hornblower -> edmoore
[17:20] <Randomskk> perhaps a more obvious alt nick
[17:21] <edmoore> potentially
[17:31] <Zuph> edmoore: We're really concerned about our dewpoint calculation. We don't think we can isolate our temperature sensor and barometer enough :-\
[17:35] <Zuph> brb
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[17:46] <russss> android-powered satellite? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12253228
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[18:13] <fsphil> woo, found my box of resistors!
[18:17] <NigeyS> lol bout time
[18:17] <NigeyS> think this chip might be dead phil :(
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[18:19] <fsphil> noooo
[18:19] <fsphil> but the led is still flashing?
[18:20] <NigeyS> yep
[18:20] <NigeyS> thats whats puzzling me
[18:20] <fsphil> does it begin flashing immediately after power on?
[18:20] <NigeyS> after a few seconds
[18:20] <fsphil> hmm
[18:21] <fsphil> it sounds ok -- that pause is probably the bootloader waiting for a program
[18:21] <fsphil> did you wire up the reset pin?
[18:21] <NigeyS> yups, that works now the auto reset
[18:21] <fsphil> so the led stops blinking when you try to program it
[18:22] <NigeyS> yeap flashes really fast, stops, then after a while goes back to every 1 second
[18:24] <griffonbot> @nearsys: First day of class. I'm teaching Introduction to Astronautics. This class has a BalloonSat lab. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/29605577432764416]
[18:25] <fsphil> I can't find much info other than the lilypad bootloader runs at 19200 baud by default
[18:26] <NigeyS> ill set the port speed to that then
[18:27] <fsphil> what is the programmer type?
[18:27] <NigeyS> its the 3.3v ftdi breakout from sf
[18:28] <fsphil> what's selected in the software?
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[18:28] <NigeyS> the board type in the ide ?
[18:28] <fsphil> yea
[18:29] <NigeyS> lilypad with atmega168
[18:29] <NigeyS> which it is as i got a halogen lamp and a magnifying glass, def a 168
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[18:30] <NigeyS> no joy at 19200 either, this is weird
[18:31] <Zuph> Afternoon, Dan-K2VOL
[18:31] <Dan-K2VOL> Hola zuph
[18:31] <Zuph> Get enough sleep?
[18:32] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph, yeah, had to go in late to work to do it tho
[18:33] <Zuph> :(
[18:33] <Dan-K2VOL> Damn these corporeal bodies
[18:33] <Zuph> To be fair, I only got enough sleep by virtue of sleeping through my alarm.
[18:33] <Dan-K2VOL> Haha
[18:33] <Dan-K2VOL> did you see the email from Gary Felix?
[18:34] <Zuph> No.
[18:34] <Dan-K2VOL> Huh thought I forwarded it to white star
[18:35] <Dan-K2VOL> Not that interesting
[18:36] <Zuph> heh
[18:36] <Zuph> I don't see it on white star
[18:38] <Dan-K2VOL> Forwarding again now
[18:38] <Dan-K2VOL> It bounced, from my whitestar.org addr
[18:39] <Zuph> huh
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[18:43] <Dan-K2VOL> I really like our tow balloon idea brad
[18:44] <Dan-K2VOL> we can use carl's flight computer for the tow balloon - it has a built-in cutdown circuit already I think
[18:44] <Zuph> Excellent. Can it trigger a camera?
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[18:49] <Dan-K2VOL> Likely, he has a heater trigger on there too
[18:49] <Dan-K2VOL> Well, cam can just run
[18:49] <Dan-K2VOL> The flip video cams can run for like 6 hours to an SD card at HD
[18:49] <Dan-K2VOL> Quality
[18:50] <Zuph> Alrighty.
[18:50] <Dan-K2VOL> Forwarded. I replied already to it
[18:50] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/solar-charger-shield-p-594.html?cPath=155
[18:50] <Dan-K2VOL> Asking a ton of detailed questions
[18:51] <Dan-K2VOL> Very nice
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[18:51] <Dan-K2VOL> I like pre-made circuits
[18:51] <jcoxon> evening
[18:51] <NigeyS> hi jcoxon !
[18:51] <Dan-K2VOL> No need to reinvent the wheel, we've got new ground to break!
[18:51] <Dan-K2VOL> Hi jcoxon
[18:51] <NigeyS> jcoxon, this avr maybe dead :|
[18:52] Action: jcoxon is fielding emails of issues with dl-fldigi
[18:52] <jcoxon> NigeyS, what!
[18:52] <jcoxon> it worked when i sent it to yo
[18:52] <jcoxon> u
[18:52] <jcoxon> they are quite tought
[18:52] <jcoxon> tough
[18:52] <NigeyS> i got the ftdi, but the ide refuses to upload a script, constant timeouts
[18:52] <Dan-K2VOL> Hey UKHASers, here's a great site for foil balloon stuff: http://www.balloonkits.com/
[18:52] <Dan-K2VOL> If you haven't seen it
[18:52] <NigeyS> still a blinking led mind..
[18:53] <Dan-K2VOL> you can buy rolls of sealable foil
[18:53] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Well, we still will want to remake it lighter :-p
[18:53] <NigeyS> oo thanks Dan-K2VOL :D
[18:53] <jcoxon> NigeyS, it ain't dead then
[18:53] <jcoxon> tx and rx the right way round?
[18:53] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph, def, but the schematic is the hard part
[18:53] <Zuph> Yah
[18:53] <NigeyS> jcoxon, im at a loss, ive checked everything, solderings good, powers good, rx and tx are right way round..
[18:53] <jcoxon> really the right way round
[18:53] <jcoxon> so you've connected rx to tx and tx to rx?
[18:54] <NigeyS> yup, tried it both ways believe me! lol
[18:54] <NigeyS> beenn on this for 4 hours now
[18:54] <Dan-K2VOL> NigeyS, check out the paragraph about 7/8ths of the way down that details the technical process
[18:54] <jcoxon> and when you click up load to board on the ide to you power up the board when it says its compiled the binary?
[18:55] <jcoxon> so plug in the power when the white writing appears at the bottom
[18:55] <NigeyS> its powered anyway, the board is connected to the reset pin so it autoresets to upload the sketch
[18:55] <jcoxon> have you tried disconnecting htat?
[18:55] <jcoxon> cause thats not how i do it
[18:56] <Dan-K2VOL> if someone is going to be around in 4 hours, we'd like to discuss some superpressure math with you guys, see if we're all on the same page. Seems like we came up with a nice method to get the balloons to altitude without popping, and to calculate the target altitude
[18:56] <NigeyS> yups, let me try a total poweroff, then power on ..
[18:56] <jcoxon> i don't have your fancy ftdi
[18:56] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, i won't sadly
[18:56] <jcoxon> perhaps the ukhas list would be a good place to post
[18:56] <Dan-K2VOL> ah good idea, I'll sign up for it
[18:57] <NigeyS> avrdude: ser_send(): write error: sorry no info avail
[18:57] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph might have more time to explain now, but briefly for you jcoxon, we figured out how to calculate the precise amount of lift required for a non-bursting superpressure float
[18:58] <jcoxon> thats impressive
[18:58] <jcoxon> NigeyS, what have you selected in teh ide as teh board?
[18:58] <Zuph> Well, "figured out how" and "devised a method to" are slightly different :-p
[18:58] <NigeyS> lilypad with 168
[18:59] <Dan-K2VOL> Which isn't much for climb speed, so the adding a tow balloon that cuts away a few thousand feet before target pressure altiude
[18:59] <Dan-K2VOL> Gtg
[18:59] <jcoxon> NigeyS, did i give you a 168 or 328?
[18:59] <NigeyS> 168
[19:01] <jcoxon> i really don't think teh avr is broken
[19:01] <jcoxon> if it still flashing that led
[19:01] <NigeyS> nup not working on, turning of and powering on just gives write error
[19:01] <jcoxon> as thats teh code i added before i sent it to you
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[19:01] <jcoxon> how about if you do this
[19:01] <NigeyS> yeah thats the thing im pickled on, led wouldnt flash if it was b0rked
[19:02] <jcoxon> 1) power up the board
[19:02] <jcoxon> 2)
[19:02] <jcoxon> short the 2 reset holes together
[19:02] <jcoxon> 3) keep them shorted then click upload
[19:02] <NigeyS> k lemme try
[19:02] <jcoxon> only when "Binary Sketch size: xxxxx appears
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[19:02] <jcoxon> unshort them
[19:03] <jcoxon> then step back and wait
[19:03] <NigeyS> k
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[19:06] <NigeyS> nope.. im lost now, no clue whats going on
[19:07] <jcoxon> i could flash you another chip if you wanted
[19:08] <jcoxon> or send it back to me to check it
[19:08] <NigeyS> i might order a 328 with bootloader and try that, but if the leds working .. hmm
[19:09] <jcoxon> have you cheacked the ftdi is working
[19:09] <jcoxon> by connecting tx to rx and seeing in the terminal if it echos the data back?
[19:09] <NigeyS> let me try
[19:10] <jcoxon> you can use the ide's serial terminal
[19:10] <NigeyS> oki
[19:15] <Zuph> So, jcoxon, Dan-K2VOL and I have been excitedly talking about a Sat-modem balloon payload for maximum linger time.
[19:15] <Zuph> We think we can get a Sat modem + GPS + flight computer + lipo + solar panel in under 200g.
[19:16] <Zuph> With a reliable superpressure envelope, we think we can deal with once daily position reports.
[19:19] <Zuph> We've also been reading up some NASA archived research, and some Aerostar publications on superpressure envelopes.
[19:19] <fsphil> that would be impressive
[19:19] <jcoxon> very impressive
[19:19] <jcoxon> just need a super-pressure envelope
[19:19] <Zuph> Essentially.
[19:20] <jcoxon> yeah
[19:20] <jcoxon> bbiab
[19:21] <Zuph> We think we have a lead on some plastics which may work. If not, off the shelf large mylar blimp balloons might do the trick, with accurate enough static lift measurement.
[19:23] <eroomde> Zuph: I've done a smidge of reading on this too
[19:23] <eroomde> there's an especially useful paper by Pellegrino
[19:24] <eroomde> the interesting and easy-to-explain conclusion is that at our small scale, and with low gore count (eg 16) then basically a perfectly spherical pattern is 'optimal'
[19:24] <eroomde> and a lot easier to make than pumpkins
[19:25] <eroomde> http://www-civ.eng.cam.ac.uk/dsl/publications/Anisotropic%20viscoelastic%20behaviour.pdf
[19:25] <eroomde> oh no not that one
[19:26] <Zuph> eroomde: Interesting. All the papers we found last night considered a "small" balloon to be anything under half a million cubic feet, and stayed steady with the pumpkin shape.
[19:27] <Zuph> We're assuming that our balloons will be so small that seam strength won't be a *huge* issue, so we don't have to worry *too* much about shape.
[19:27] <eroomde> this one http://www-civ.eng.cam.ac.uk/dsl/publications/Optimization%20pumpkin%20balloons%20SMALL.pdf
[19:28] <eroomde> yes that's the conclusion too
[19:28] <eroomde> well, for a small gore count you need to care more about seam strength than with a large gore count, for a given size
[19:28] <eroomde> but basically we're at a much happier end of the cube/square law, for once, as you point out
[19:28] <Zuph> Yeah, absolutely.
[19:29] <Zuph> With a 200 gram payload, it doesn't take a lot to get to 12km.
[19:30] <eroomde> party balloons?
[19:30] <eroomde> (lots of them)
[19:30] <Zuph> Heh
[19:30] <Zuph> We found some hobby blimp balloons of pretty sizable volume
[19:30] <Zuph> We calculated we would need 10.
[19:31] <Zuph> Our back-of-the-envelope calculations show that if you have enough lift to rise through clouds and temperature inversions easily, you probably have enough lift to pop your balloon.
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[19:31] <Zuph> So a tow balloon is probably necessary. NASA uses tow balloons on large superpressures, so there's at least some merit to the idea.
[19:32] <eroomde> mmm, that makes a lot of sense
[19:32] <eroomde> we've used tow balloons before for the same reason
[19:32] <eroomde> on Nova 10 iirc
[19:32] <Zuph> Another potential problem: Mark Caviezel claims that the rapid ascent cools the helium well below ambient temperature. In a super-pressure, this could cause you to rise above your target altitude, then when your helium heats up to ambient, you burst your envelope before you can settle down.
[19:33] <eroomde> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/media
[19:33] <Zuph> So, we want to make our own envelope, and put a pressure sensor and relief valve on it until we can accurately model things.
[19:33] <eroomde> at the top is Nova 10 (given we've launched about 19 Novas now, our site needs an update)
[19:34] <Zuph> Neat
[19:35] <eroomde> She was pretty. Like a bayeux tapestry comet
[19:35] <Zuph> The interesting thing (for us) about using a tow balloon, is that you can mount a camera on the tow balloon, and observe exactly what happens as your superpressure envelopes pressurize.
[19:35] <Zuph> hah
[19:35] <Zuph> What were the streamers for?
[19:36] <eroomde> http://www.astronomynotes.com/solarsys/pics/halley-bayeauxb.jpg
[19:36] <eroomde> the streamers were for passive stabilisation
[19:36] <eroomde> it was to test a star tracker
[19:37] <eroomde> so it got taken to 25+km, loose the tow balloon, leaving a very very low positive vertical rate under the other balloon, with very low yaw and roll rates, which the start tracker needed
[19:37] <eroomde> so really the star tracker just needed a dark sky and stable picture
[19:38] <eroomde> that also explains the 100m harness
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[19:38] <Zuph> Neat. How well did it work?
[19:40] <eroomde> unfortunately the high alt winds were stronger than expected and it got to it's radius-from-launch-site cutdown criteria before it had gathered enough data to really make good conclusions
[19:40] <eroomde> but it seemed to work fine and subsequent ground tests had it working well too
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: so you're planning to launch over a thunderstorm to find antimatter?
[19:41] <Laurenceb_> is this PhD related - are you doing one?
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[19:42] <eroomde> no, this is strictly amateur science
[19:43] <eroomde> i'm an engineer, we don't do PhDs in antimatter
[19:43] <eroomde> we do proper things
[19:43] <Laurenceb_> heh
[19:43] <eroomde> like steam engines
[19:43] <Laurenceb_> http://www.isengard.co.uk/
[19:44] Action: Laurenceb_ is enjoying his steam engine pron
[19:45] <Zuph> They're taking the hobbits to Isengard?
[19:46] <eroomde> my reaction too
[19:46] <fsphil> to Isengard?
[19:46] <eroomde> followed by Isen-Isen-Isen-Isen a la the dance remix
[19:47] <Zuph> eroomde: At any rate, if we can find a source of material and a method to seal the material, this summer may be superpressure summer
[19:47] <Laurenceb_> someone spends too much time on albinoblacksheep
[19:48] <eroomde> Zuph: awesome
[19:48] <eroomde> I'll look up our zp roller welding element
[19:48] <eroomde> it's a decent unit
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> jaxa have made some really nice automatec rool to rool balloon seaming/cutting setups
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> unfortunately ~0 documentation avalaible on the www
[19:50] <Zuph> eroomde: I've been meaing to ask about that device's construction.
[19:51] <eroomde> hurl an email my way some time
[19:51] <Zuph> What's the address?
[19:51] <griffonbot> @nearsys: Trash cans do not work as near space chambers. I'll post a picture of what happens when you evacuate one. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/29627470269386752]
[19:51] <eroomde> eddymoore at gmail
[19:52] <Zuph> alright
[19:53] <eroomde> Zuph: we have some pics from the early days of the construction, but none from when it was finished
[19:53] <eroomde> sadly
[19:53] <eroomde> but for what it's worth
[19:53] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3741612405/in/set-72157621632629963/
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[19:55] <eroomde> so we rolled from one wheel onto the other, with the heating element on the upper table
[19:57] <eroomde> and a sort of teflon arrangement between sheets of the concetina of balloon. it's a bit difficult to explain but you get the idea
[19:58] <Zuph> Huh, interesting.
[19:59] <Zuph> Dan recently came across a similar commercial device.
[19:59] <eroomde> !
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[19:59] <Zuph> $300
[19:59] <eroomde> our actually rolling welder was off the shelf
[19:59] <Zuph> http://triton-packaging.amazonwebstore.com/Band-Sealer-Bag-Closer-Inox-Apolo/M/B001V9MDHC.htm?traffic_src=froogle&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=froogle
[19:59] <Zuph> Oh, really?
[20:00] <eroomde> yes. similar to that
[20:00] <eroomde> we just made the table for it to go on
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[20:00] <eroomde> the idea is that it's all terribly nice and automated. I shaln't comment on the reality
[20:00] <Zuph> hah
[20:00] <Zuph> Dan actually had a chance to peek at the Aerostar factory floor.
[20:01] <Zuph> They have a similar device, but it moves along the table, rather than moving the plastic.
[20:01] <eroomde> i think the easier solution, if you have a hangar available
[20:01] <Zuph> One person feeds the joint in, another makes sure the weld occurs correctly, and a third manager the output.
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[20:01] <Zuph> They just go back and forth all day long.
[20:01] <eroomde> hicksville? i.e. cheap labour?
[20:02] <Zuph> Their factory is a room about 30 feet wide by 400 feet long.
[20:02] <Zuph> It was 3 old women working the machine when Dan saw it :)
[20:02] <eroomde> lol
[20:02] <eroomde> it's a bit like packing parachutes for the SRBs
[20:02] <eroomde> just some old women and a very very long taable
[20:02] <Zuph> Bingo
[20:03] <eroomde> I really do hate packing paachutes
[20:03] <Zuph> At any rate, at the hackspace, we've got a room about 30 feet wide by ~120 feet :)
[20:03] <eroomde> wow
[20:03] <eroomde> steal it
[20:04] <eroomde> And great for packing chutes too, I imagine!
[20:04] <Zuph> The room?
[20:04] <eroomde> yeah
[20:04] <Zuph> We've got free access to it already :)
[20:04] <eroomde> very nice indeed
[20:05] <eroomde> we've still been unsuccessful in our quest to find a hangar for CU Spaceflight
[20:05] <eroomde> it'd be ideal
[20:05] <eroomde> for working and to inflate in (in still air)
[20:05] <Zuph> Yeah
[20:06] <Zuph> For small superpressures, we think we'd just inflate in the space, and walk it out the garage door. I think that's pretty reasonable for a 1.4 m^3 balloon.
[20:06] <eroomde> well, you'll have a perfect balloon building room, it sounds like
[20:06] <eroomde> diddy super pressure!
[20:06] <Zuph> Spaceport Indiana has also generously allowed us to use their hanger :)
[20:06] <eroomde> quite a set-up!
[20:06] <eroomde> sounds ideal
[20:06] <Zuph> It's not heated, which is definitely a downside this time of year, but still...
[20:07] <eroomde> on launch day you generate your own heat
[20:07] <Zuph> Not enough when it's -15c out.
[20:07] <eroomde> panic -> heat
[20:08] <eroomde> hmm, wrap up warm then too I guess :)
[20:08] <eroomde> after storm hab I kind of want to send up something to investigate the northern lights
[20:08] <eroomde> that will be a chilly launch
[20:10] <Zuph> heh
[20:10] <Zuph> yeah
[20:10] <eroomde> Zuph: what sort of endurance do you think you can get from a 200g payload?
[20:11] <Zuph> eroomde: With once daily TX, we think we can get 12 days without solar panels.
[20:11] <eroomde> very exciting :)
[20:11] <Zuph> With solar panels, we hope to extend that nearly indefinitely.
[20:12] <eroomde> yeah. you could stick the payload to the underside of one of those a300 cells
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[20:12] <Zuph> If we make quality envelopes, we could be looking at months of lingering :)
[20:13] <eroomde> that would be an awesome achivement
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[20:13] Nick change: SpikeUK_ -> SpikeUK
[20:13] <Zuph> That's why we're so excited about this :)
[20:13] <Zuph> This Sat Modem is a magic little box.
[20:14] <eroomde> which one are you using?
[20:14] <eroomde> ah piss i need to dash. must carry on this convo soon!
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[20:15] <Zuph> eroomde: agreed!
[20:15] <Zuph> eroomde: Digi M10, for reference
[20:21] <Elwell> Zuph: they look cool
[20:21] Action: NigeyS throws avr out the window f********
[20:21] <Elwell> pricey?
[20:22] <Zuph> Elwell: Modem is $150.
[20:22] <Elwell> ah, 200 eur - found it
[20:23] <Zuph> Elwell: Service is a little on the expensive side. We're under NDA for actual quote, but on the order of $5-10 per Kilobyte.
[20:24] <Elwell> Zuph: yeah, saw that the other day. was it you who mentioned the small packet size possibility?
[20:25] <Zuph> Probably Dan-K2VOL
[20:26] <Zuph> The message format is weird.
[20:26] <Zuph> Reports are 6 bytes, and are easy, quick and reliable.
[20:26] <Zuph> But you may receive a report more than once, and they're relatively expensive.
[20:26] <Zuph> Messages are larger, but less reliable, and slower.
[20:27] <Elwell> ah, ive done inmarsat stuff on boats - similar thing i guess, periodic reporting cheap (relative term...) vs polled stuff
[20:28] <Zuph> Well, Messages aren't polled, they're just bigger.
[20:28] <Zuph> GlobalGrams are polled, and they're a bitch.
[20:34] <Zuph> It's a magic box. 45 grams, and it does everything from handshaking to element calculation to Doppler shift.
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[20:51] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph we can actually use a polled mode for sending reports and messages as well, but I don't think we can for globalgrams
[20:52] <Dan-K2VOL> The problem is that we need to actually send a poll request packet from our end to do the poll
[20:55] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Right.
[20:55] <Zuph> But you have to poll each incoming sat for globalgrams, I though.
[21:01] <Dan-K2VOL> we don't
[21:02] <Zuph> We aren't using globalgrams.
[21:02] <Dan-K2VOL> The balloon must address the message to a particular satellite by it's ID number, and also include in the header which gateway for that satellite to downlink it to in the future
[21:02] <Dan-K2VOL> right
[21:02] <Dan-K2VOL> if it's out of range, we just let it be so, I'd say, for now
[21:02] <Zuph> I mean, to send a message to the balloon
[21:03] <Zuph> The balloon must ask each sat, "Do you have a globalgram for me?"
[21:03] <Dan-K2VOL> I can't recall, but that sounds plausible
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[21:07] <Dan-K2VOL> BTW I hate that no debugger works for arduino without massive hacking
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[21:12] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: There's a reason I programmed the flight computer in C and used AVR-GCC from the start :-p
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[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> http://winzenflyer.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/tracking-wb8elk-11/
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[21:37] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph, yes, I'd have preferred the comm controller to be done in C as well, however no one with C skills volunteered to program it :-)
[21:38] <Zuph> Funny :-p
[21:38] <Dan-K2VOL> though at this point, I've probably gotten enough back into it by supervising the work recode that I could do it in C
[21:39] <Dan-K2VOL> I do eventually want to make this a library for arduino, which I think will require C or C++
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> hey dan and Zuph
[21:40] <Zuph> Hola
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> did you see my blogpost?
[21:42] <Zuph> yep
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:42] <Dan-K2VOL> Where is it?
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> http://winzenflyer.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/tracking-wb8elk-11/
[21:51] <Dan-K2VOL> Nice Lunar_Lander
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[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> I wonder how Bill would like it
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[22:01] <fsphil> woo, 1200 baud from an ntx2. nice :)
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> cool
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[22:32] <Nigey> fsphil, different error in linux..lol
[22:33] <fsphil> heh, was it at least a useful error?
[22:33] <Nigey> programmer not responding
[22:33] <Nigey> so not really..lol
[22:34] <Nigey> only other thing i can think of is the usb cable
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> hey fsphil and Nigey
[22:34] <Nigey> hey Lunar
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> did you already read my writeup on Bill's flight?
[22:34] <fsphil> can't see it, if the loopback test worked
[22:34] <fsphil> hiya LL
[22:35] <Nigey> fsphil, well.. in that case im out of ideas
[22:36] <Nigey> not yet lunar, been trying to program the avr for the last err.. 7 hours
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[22:36] <fsphil> could still be an ide setting problem
[22:36] <Colin_> Nigey: is this your serial? if it works just looping the tx to rx bit doesn't work for another dervice then maybe it's control lines - or maybe even voltage levels
[22:37] <Nigey> usb .. its an ftdi breakout .. i di think about power but power levels seem ok
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[22:38] <Nigey> normally i get this error if the wrong board is set in the ide .. selected the right board but nada
[22:39] <Colin_> Nigey: not power - signal voltage levels, 3v3 vs 5v or even 12v
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[22:40] <Nigey> hm they are all ok between 3.25 and 3.3 .. tested them as much as i could
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[22:49] <fsphil> there are different bootloaders, all I can think of is the one that's on there is not the same as the lilypad
[22:49] <fsphil> or at least what the ide calls the lilypad
[22:50] <Nigey> possibly but thats the 1 james said he put on there
[22:53] <fsphil> the other possibility is the baud rate of the bootloader is not what is expected
[22:53] <fsphil> it's configured for a particular crystal speed when it's flashed
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[22:54] <Nigey> hmm. afaik its using the internal crystal
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[23:33] <griffonbot> Received email: shnarg2 <shnarg2@gmail.com> "[UKHAS] Launch Locations"
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[23:35] <fsphil> I just discovered a bug in the hadie code, the baud rate was actually 257 not 300
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[23:43] <fsphil> who's launching next? james again?
[23:43] <NigeyS> think so yeah
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[23:46] <Lunar_Lander> NigeyS does your code work?
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[23:48] <NigeyS> no idea, the chip wont talk to me lol
[23:48] <Lunar_Lander> damn
[23:48] <Lunar_Lander> Darkside are you flying? you are on the tracker
[23:48] <NigeyS> maybe i should introduce it to mr lump hammer
[23:49] <fsphil> Mr.230V
[23:49] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:49] <NigeyS> lol even better phil ;)
[23:49] <NigeyS> or worse! mr pussy cat
[23:49] <fsphil> eep!
[23:50] <NigeyS> yeah hes a vicious sod, he'd probably eat it
[23:50] <fsphil> my sisters cat give me a good scratch the other day
[23:50] <NigeyS> kick the cat !
[23:50] <NigeyS> cat meet foot, meet window ;)
[23:50] <fsphil> nah, I just tease it with a laser :)
[23:50] <NigeyS> lmao cruel sod!
[23:50] <NigeyS> and on that note.. bed time
[23:50] <fsphil> it loves it
[23:51] <NigeyS> this colds killing me :(
[23:51] <fsphil> plenty of rest, and drink loads!
[23:51] <fsphil> of water that is :p
[23:51] <Lunar_Lander> and onion soup
[23:51] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[23:51] <NigeyS> haha, yup will be doing, might not be aroudn tomoz, see how i feel, thanks all for the help today, shame the chip wont play ball but nm!
[23:51] <fsphil> chicken soup.. mmmm
[23:51] <NigeyS> mmmmmm
[23:51] <NigeyS> --gone!
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[23:52] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:52] <Lunar_Lander> fsphil did you read my writeup on bill's ascent?
[23:52] <fsphil> I wonder if the 1200 baud mode would work at distance
[23:52] <fsphil> haven't, where'd you post it?
[23:53] <Lunar_Lander> http://winzenflyer.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/tracking-wb8elk-11/
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[23:56] <fsphil> 7 hours and 35 minutes .. that's madness :)
[23:56] <fsphil> good write-up, I hadn't heard why it was underfilled
[23:57] <Lunar_Lander> yeah bill came on for a moment as I said there
[23:57] <Lunar_Lander> and he said, there was a gust of wind while weighing off
[23:57] <Lunar_Lander> and thanks :)
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[00:00] --- Tue Jan 25 2011