highaltitude.log.20110119

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[00:48] <NigeyS|> nn all
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[02:02] <juxta> ping Darkside, shenki
[02:03] <Darkside> juxta: pong
[02:03] <juxta> heya Darkside
[02:03] <Darkside> joel is at david's house, picking up some stuff i left in his car
[02:03] <juxta> I was exhausted last night
[02:03] <juxta> how about you?
[02:03] <Darkside> oh yes
[02:03] <Darkside> very much so
[02:03] <juxta> haha
[02:03] <Darkside> im in at uni at the moment, waiting for joel to get here
[02:04] <juxta> alrighty
[02:04] <juxta> when are you guys heading out to bris?
[02:04] <juxta> sunday?
[02:04] <Darkside> sunday
[02:04] <Darkside> 6am >_>
[02:04] <Darkside> will need to get stuff before then
[02:04] <Darkside> long before then
[02:04] <juxta> stuff?
[02:04] <Darkside> arduino payload
[02:04] <juxta> oh yeah
[02:04] <Darkside> stuff to show at the talk
[02:04] <Darkside> should have got that yesterday..
[02:05] <Darkside> was too busy thkining about the broken payload to consider that
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[02:05] <nevyn> broken payload :(
[02:05] <Darkside> well, i mean the gps antenna we snapped off
[02:05] <Darkside> like, the day before we were launching
[02:06] <Darkside> luckily we had a backup gps
[02:08] <natrium42> Darkside: any pics yet? :)
[02:08] <Darkside> natrium42: only the ones i posted yesterday
[02:08] <natrium42> missed them
[02:09] <natrium42> going to check backlog
[02:09] <natrium42> so was
[02:09] <natrium42> mission a success?
[02:09] <nevyn> Darkside: so I have this plan
[02:09] <nevyn> to use a 2M module with the modsendat.
[02:10] <nevyn> and the trackduino firmware
[02:10] <nevyn> to do APRS on the board.
[02:10] <Darkside> oooooooooo
[02:10] <Darkside> oh hell yes
[02:10] <Darkside> are there any modules that'll do that?
[02:10] <Darkside> i know someone in our grup doinf one that would work
[02:10] <nevyn> http://trackuino.blogspot.com/
[02:11] <nevyn> it's a similar board
[02:11] <nevyn> but without some of the funkier sensors we have
[02:11] <Darkside> oh wow
[02:11] <Darkside> so this does APRS?
[02:11] <nevyn> but he's doing ax25 on the 328
[02:11] <nevyn> # 1200 bauds AFSK using 8-bit PWM
[02:11] <nevyn> # Sends out standard APRS position messages (latitude, longitude, altitude, course, speed and time).
[02:11] <Darkside> i thought APRS was AFSK on FM
[02:11] <Darkside> oh shit
[02:11] <Darkside> thats nasty
[02:12] <nevyn> hey it works.
[02:12] <Darkside> heh
[02:12] <nevyn> with a little filter it'd be quite acceptable
[02:12] <Darkside> i know someone who's making an APRS digipeater using a radiometrix module
[02:12] <Darkside> so i might find out how he's doing it
[02:12] <Darkside> AVR based too
[02:12] <nevyn> yes
[02:12] <Darkside> but he's doing DSP stuff, to do receive too :D
[02:13] <nevyn> this is send only
[02:13] <nevyn> recieve would be more tricky
[02:13] <Darkside> don't you need to check if the channel is free?
[02:14] <nevyn> 145.175 is dedicated to aprs beaconing
[02:14] <Darkside> yes
[02:14] <Darkside> but i mean to check if there isnt any other trnamissions going on at the time on that freq
[02:14] <Darkside> im sure APRS had something about waiting for a gap, then transmitting
[02:15] <nevyn> hrm maybe you need recieve.that makes things more complicated.
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[02:16] <juxta> Darkside, some APRS transmitters will check if there's already carrier
[02:16] <juxta> but not all
[02:16] <nevyn> juxta: the question is is it mandatory?
[02:16] <juxta> no
[02:16] <nevyn> that was my understanding.
[02:17] <nevyn> so you can build a tx only tracker.
[02:17] <juxta> the APRS beacon we flew didn't check, ti just blatted out positions as it felt like it
[02:17] <nevyn> then I can track it from my VX-8DR :)
[02:17] <nevyn> juxta: did you fly actual onboard APRS on horus14?
[02:17] <juxta> not on 14
[02:17] <juxta> but on some others we have
[02:18] <nevyn> so horus14 you used the rtty on 70 stuff..
[02:18] <juxta> yeah, on 434mhz and on 151mhz
[02:18] <nevyn> Darkside: is that what you sent from the modsendat as well?
[02:18] <juxta> Darkside built a 2m payload
[02:18] <nevyn> using a radiometrix module?
[02:18] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
[02:18] <juxta> nevyn, yep
[02:18] <W0OTM> howdy
[02:19] <nevyn> hi W0OTM
[02:19] <juxta> hi W0OTM
[02:19] <W0OTM> whats the good word?
[02:19] <nevyn> Darkside: you licenced?
[02:19] <nevyn> you havn't heard the word?
[02:19] <juxta> 'pickles' is a good word
[02:19] <nevyn> I've got it on good authority that the bird is the word.
[02:19] <Darkside> nevyn: not yet
[02:20] <W0OTM> LOL
[02:20] <W0OTM> im excited! I got my DTMF controller switch working
[02:20] <nevyn> Family guy has so much to answer for.
[02:20] <juxta> Darkside is a licensed pyrotechnician
[02:20] <nevyn> so so much.
[02:20] <Darkside> wut
[02:20] <W0OTM> now I can turn on/off the 20M beacon, cut balloon, ect
[02:20] Action: SpeedEvil wants to amke a Clarke's giant steel fountain.
[02:21] <Darkside> juxta: wut
[02:21] <juxta> W0OTM, good work - I was looking at doing something similar
[02:21] <juxta> what module are you using?
[02:21] <Darkside> nevyn: no i didnt send APRS, i was operating on 151.3MHZ
[02:21] <W0OTM> home brew
[02:21] <Darkside> and i was sending 300 baud RTTY
[02:21] <nevyn> Darkside: so... if I manage to get off my butt and modify the trackduino firmware for a modsendat could we try it at lca on your board with your module?
[02:21] <W0OTM> ill have plans avail soon
[02:21] <Darkside> no nevyn
[02:21] <juxta> W0OTM, great :)
[02:21] <nevyn> no?
[02:21] <Darkside> wrong frequency, and wrong setup
[02:21] <Darkside> mine is set up to do narrowband RTTY
[02:22] <W0OTM> Im going to create a youtube video of a demo of how if works
[02:22] <nevyn> what module are you using.
[02:22] <W0OTM> I hope to launch here in a couple weeks
[02:22] <nevyn> we'd need that hx1 module for nfm
[02:22] <Darkside> nevyn: i'm using a TX1H VHF 100mW module
[02:22] <Darkside> and i'm not operating it in FM mode
[02:22] <nevyn> I forgot that while all radiometrix modules have the same pinout they don't have the same functions.
[02:22] <nevyn> yeah
[02:22] <Darkside> i'm doing narrowband FSK, with a 425Hz shift
[02:22] <Darkside> its actually not designed for that, but it works anyway
[02:23] Action: nevyn wonders how much a hx1 module is.
[02:24] <Darkside> ring up rfma and find out
[02:24] <Darkside> heh
[02:24] <juxta> I'm not sure the module that Matt got hold of - but it was full TX/RX on 2M, not sure if it was frequency agile or fixed on the APRS freq
[02:24] <juxta> it was fairly expensive though
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[02:28] <Darkside> natrium42: http://imgur.com/a/i7M4j
[02:29] <nevyn> $60ish bucks.
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[02:29] <nevyn> he did ask if I was a licenced amateur.
[02:31] <nevyn> which was novel..
[02:39] <Darkside> haha
[02:39] <Darkside> yeah, i'm not... yet
[02:39] <Darkside> getting there
[02:40] <nevyn> well often vendors studiously avoid asking.
[02:40] Action: nevyn is working on his advanced call
[02:40] <nevyn> still only a F call
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[02:44] <nevyn> so modsendat + gps + radio module a little over $200...
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[02:58] <nevyn> Darkside: do you know where the gps module can be purchased?
[03:10] <Darkside> theres a few places in the UK
[03:10] <Darkside> though tbh any 3.3v GPS module will work
[03:10] <Darkside> joel and i managed to break our FSA03, so I just wired in another module
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[04:50] <nevyn> with a patch cable?
[04:54] <nevyn> Darkside: this is actually not that ugly... http://trackuino.blogspot.com/2010/04/audio-with-arduino-and-pwm.html
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[05:30] <Darkside> nice
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[06:12] <W7AS> What lind of project are you looking at ???
[06:13] <nevyn> me?
[06:13] <nevyn> self contained 2m aprs tracker using the mobsendat board
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[06:16] <W7AS> Hi, Maybe you might know.... On the Taper site and other places, it talks about a "MIM" board, I cant find one anywhere...
[06:18] <W7AS> It uses a PIC programmed as a pactet modem, very lite weight and great for balloon flights
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[07:52] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon <jacoxon@gmail.com> "Re: PicoAtlas - Launch: Monday 17/1/2011 ~ 12:00UTC"
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[08:01] <earthshine> morning
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[08:01] <earthshine> juxta: you there ?
[08:01] <juxta> heya earthshine
[08:01] <earthshine> Hi
[08:01] <juxta> how're you doing?
[08:01] <earthshine> You got the ublox right ?
[08:01] <earthshine> Fine thanks. You ?
[08:02] <juxta> yup, I thought I sent you an email or something to let you know
[08:02] <juxta> all is well here, weather is starting to get nice
[08:03] <earthshine> weather here is cold and damp
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[08:03] <juxta> are you still working on your launch?
[08:03] <earthshine> yeah
[08:03] <earthshine> its haard though as i'm so darned busy
[08:04] <earthshine> but want to do one probably next month
[08:04] <griffonbot> Received email: Graham GW8RAK <graham.ogle@virgin.net> "Re: PicoAtlas - Launch: Monday 17/1/2011 ~ 12:00UTC"
[08:04] <juxta> oh excellent
[08:04] <juxta> any plans as to the payload?
[08:05] <earthshine> 2 cameras
[08:05] <earthshine> 1 for video one for stills
[08:05] <earthshine> plus a small science payload
[08:07] <juxta> great :)
[08:07] <juxta> what sort of camera are you using for video?
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[08:09] <earthshine> just 2 x A560's
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[08:38] <Elwell> did anyone get the final wight of picoatlas (without its straws & insulation) at launch? don't see it on the wiki writeup
[08:39] <SpeedEvil> The total weight of the payload was 80g, I think.
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[09:34] <earthshine> Predicitions look good for any launches this weekend
[09:38] <junderwood> ... if you don't mind landing on Terminal 5 ...
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[09:45] <Elwell> ach, noone will notice :-)
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[11:13] <NigeyS> do b doooo morning peeps
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[11:14] <SpeedEvil> Hello.
[11:14] Action: SpeedEvil again has no idea what time it is.
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> Woke up at 3AM.
[11:15] <NigeyS> lol i was up at daft oclock to take the cat to the vets, 156fkin quid :@!
[11:15] <Randomskk> what was wrong with the cat?
[11:15] <SpeedEvil> Ow.
[11:16] <NigeyS> umm.. kidney infection, has to go back friday :(
[11:17] <Randomskk> :(
[11:17] <NigeyS> poor thing wont eat
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[11:17] <NigeyS> on the good side, the lipo and charger i ordered last night came this morning :D
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> So - next project is to work out how to lithium power the cat, so it doesn't need to eat?
[11:18] <NigeyS> hahaha now theres a thought!
[11:19] <NigeyS> wonder what the charge time is from a pc usb port
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[11:23] <SpeedEvil> laurence: http://www.cypress.com/?id=205 - and similar - these used to be fillfactory - some of the parts had ROIs that could be set to 1*1 and read out _stupidly_ fast.
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> They also did non-destructive readout, and had OK sensitivity and space capable versions.
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> And they'd sell in ones.
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> They looked really good for star-trackers on incapable hardware.
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> You put a nice lens on it, and then just poll several ROIs around the stars you're looking at.
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> Nearly no data to process, and you can do it really fast
[11:30] <NigeyS> im gonna buy a blimp!
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> If you buy a blimp, it has to by law have a speaker that you can trigger on demand to emit the phrase 'Oh the humanity!'.
[11:34] <NigeyS> pmsl ! deal
[11:34] <NigeyS> hm whats this ..
[11:34] <NigeyS> Description:
[11:34] <NigeyS> Hi-Float makes helium-filled latex balloons float for much longer than untreated latex balloons. Average float time for un-treated balloons is 8-12 hours, with Hi-Float this is extended to up to 5 days.
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> I would imagine PVA glue or something
[11:35] <NigeyS> ahh so its just leakage prevention stuff ?
[11:35] <NigeyS> 50quid a bottle mind
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> Latex is quite porous
[11:39] <NigeyS> ahh got ya
[11:40] <NigeyS> might be worth using on a long duration floater but not for a normal launch
[11:41] <Laurenceb> it may protect them as well
[11:42] <Laurenceb> we've seen descending latex floaters pop at night
[11:42] <Laurenceb> presumably free radical damage
[11:42] <NigeyS> oh, interesting, maybe worth a shot
[11:44] <Laurenceb> but how do they propose to make a latex envelope float?
[11:44] <NigeyS> pass
[11:45] <NigeyS> whats these CHLOROPRENE balloons ?
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[12:59] <NigeyS> elo rocketboy
[13:00] <g8khw-iPhone> Y
[13:00] <g8khw-iPhone> Yo
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[13:34] <Darkside> natrium42: you about?
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[14:29] <Colin_> Is eroomde around?
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[14:58] <eroomde> Colin_: hi
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[15:30] <Colin_> eroomde: see /msg
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[18:17] <jcoxon> evening
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[19:49] <NigelMoby> Evening
[19:50] <jcoxon> evening Nige
[19:50] <jcoxon> NigelMoby,
[19:50] <NigelMoby> Hey James how's you?
[19:50] <jcoxon> not bad thanks and you?
[19:51] <NigelMoby> All good, received the lipo and charger this morning.
[19:51] <jcoxon> thats very good
[19:51] <jcoxon> when did you order it!
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[19:52] <NigelMoby> Yesterday afternoon, talk about speedy delivery
[19:54] <jcoxon> that is good
[19:55] <Colin_> Quick question - where do people buy their NTX2 units from? The Radiometrix online shop doesn't seem to have them
[19:55] <jcoxon> direct from radiometrix by phone
[19:55] <jcoxon> i think they are 13 pounds each
[19:55] <Colin_> Ah, right, they take credit cards?
[19:55] <jcoxon> yes
[19:55] <jonsowman> Colin_: they do stock them, they just don't put them on their website
[19:56] Action: Colin_ nods - right I'll probably get a couple tomorrow. ARM are trying to get into partnership with a local school to do a balloon with an Mbed as the flight computer
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[19:56] <jcoxon> cool, it'll be easy with an mbed
[19:57] <Colin_> yup and they are effectively free for us
[19:57] <NigelMoby> I paid 13 plus delivery.
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[19:57] <jonsowman> Colin_: if you explain the educational purposes & school relations there's a fair chance you'll get a couple free
[19:58] <Colin_> what about gps units? which one do people use and which is best?
[19:58] <Colin_> jonsowman: I'll certainly be trying
[19:58] <jcoxon> Colin_, either a lassen IQ or a Ublox based GPS
[19:59] <NigelMoby> Ublox 5 ... lessen iq
[19:59] <NigelMoby> Lessen*
[19:59] <jcoxon> my current favourite is the GPSbee from seeedstudio
[19:59] <Colin_> url?
[19:59] <jcoxon> google :-)
[20:00] <Colin_> what a strange url ;)
[20:00] <NigeyS> bloody mobile predictive txt stuff driving me mad
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[20:01] <NigeyS> lol
[20:01] <NigeyS> jcoxon, have you tried CHLOROPRENE balloons ?
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[20:02] <Colin_> Hmm.. is there a GPSbee source in the uk?
[20:03] <jcoxon> nope
[20:03] <jcoxon> Colin_, no sadly not
[20:03] <NigeyS> http://www.robotshop.com/eu/seeedstudio-50-channel-u-blox-5-gps-bee-receiver.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=GoogleUK
[20:03] <NigeyS> costly mind
[20:04] <jcoxon> NigeyS, i haven't used those balloons - i wonder how heavy they are
[20:04] <jcoxon> whether they can only support their own weight
[20:05] <NigeyS> wondering the same to, they have an impressive lift
[20:05] <NigeyS> 4' (1.2m) Chloroprene Balloons 771g
[20:05] <jcoxon> they weight 771g?
[20:06] <NigeyS> no, apparently thats the lift weight maximum
[20:06] <jcoxon> link?
[20:06] <NigeyS> http://www.signatureballoons.co.uk/printing/helium-lifting-ability.aspx
[20:06] <NigeyS> could posibly be neck lift mind, they dont actually breakk it down
[20:08] <NigeyS> this maybe more what we're after
[20:08] <NigeyS> http://www.ibaonline.net/Portals/0/Helium%20Latex%20Chart.pdf
[20:08] <jcoxon> looking at that now
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[20:10] <NigeyS> spose i could grab 1 and do a tethered test .. if it'll lift and float for 4-5 days i'll eat my shoe!
[20:10] <jcoxon> yeah, lets ask dan
[20:10] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, chloroprene balloons - any experience?
[20:11] <NigeyS> good plan hehe! :D
[20:12] <Dan-K2VOL> Hi jcoxon, none, always used latex or polyethylene
[20:12] <NigeyS> hmm well i may just have to be the guinea pig on this
[20:14] <jcoxon> NigeyS, it seems to be too good to be true really
[20:14] <NigeyS> it does don't it
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[20:15] <NigeyS> certainly wouldnt do a full launch with one without a test of some sort anyway
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[20:16] <jcoxon> NigeyS, the thing is that they still would burst
[20:17] <jcoxon> it seems that a 4ft diameter balloon would weight 100g
[20:17] <jcoxon> and when fully inflated give you a lift of 771g
[20:17] <jcoxon> but that balloon would burst at a very low altitude
[20:17] <NigeyS> yeah i think so, oki, going to stick to tried and tested foil i think, never saw them before so just wondered what they were capable of.
[20:18] <NigeyS> have you seen the lift for an 18" on that chart? 3gms!! lol
[20:19] <jcoxon> NigeyS, so if you were to launch say a 4ft balloon half filled it would be quite a short flight - it would rise up and burst so no burst so no taking advantage that it would last a long time
[20:19] <jcoxon> swap the last burst for 'float'
[20:20] <NigeyS> yeah, would defeat the whole float idea, foil it is, and this lipo weighs more than the pdf sheet says!
[20:21] <jcoxon> yeah you need a super light payload and a few balloons
[20:21] <Randomskk> just cut bits off it
[20:21] <Randomskk> lipos are fine if you cut them a little
[20:21] <Randomskk> you can turn a 1000mAh one into two 500mAh batteries with a pair of scissors basically
[20:21] <NigeyS> oh, might do that, its 5gms overweight
[20:21] <jcoxon> NigeyS, explodes
[20:21] <Randomskk> (don't really do that)
[20:21] <NigeyS> haha nooo i like living!
[20:22] <Randomskk> (though you can trim the foil around the edges, don't do that either :P)
[20:22] <Randomskk> they don't explode as much as burn vigorously
[20:22] <NigeyS> nono, ill just err, send it to weight watchers or something :P
[20:23] <jcoxon> NigeyS, also remember that lift weight is fully inflated
[20:23] <jcoxon> you'll only want to inflate it to say 50%
[20:24] <NigeyS> ah was going to ask roughly how much you inflated, couldnt quite tell from the video
[20:25] <jcoxon> about that
[20:25] <Colin_> Has anyone tried a pressure relief valve of any sort on a foil type balloon
[20:25] <jcoxon> difficult to say
[20:25] <NigeyS> i'm just waiting on a programmer cable, and some headers then i can start the code
[20:26] <jcoxon> NigeyS, i flashed that chip with the arduino bootloader - you just need a usb to serial convertor(3.3v)
[20:26] <jcoxon> Colin_, no, i want the pressure :-)
[20:26] <Colin_> but isn't pressure a bad thing above a certain limit?
[20:27] <jcoxon> my current (pretty much un tested theory) is that the pressure will result in a reduction in lift to an equalibrium where it'll float
[20:27] <jcoxon> the key point is that latex can't really do this
[20:27] <Dan-K2VOL> That's correct jcoxon
[20:27] <jcoxon> but foil can withstand the 'super-pressure'
[20:28] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, i mean untested with foil party balloons :-)
[20:28] <Dan-K2VOL> ah yes. Have you been able to test the burst pressure of them jcoxon?
[20:28] <Colin_> jcoxon: surely after the envelope is at it's max volume extra pressure doesn't make any difference
[20:29] <Dan-K2VOL> Colin_ The extra pressure isn't what makes the difference, what makes the difference is the fact that the helium is now restrained from becoming less dense as it rises
[20:29] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, i haven't yet but I will
[20:29] <Dan-K2VOL> Thus it will eventually reach an altitude where it is equally dense as the air
[20:29] <jcoxon> only been playing with this idea for a few weeks
[20:29] <Dan-K2VOL> maybe not that high
[20:30] <Colin_> err... no, once the volume stops increasing the lift won't change. The mass of the gas remains constant
[20:30] <Dan-K2VOL> Colin_ helium lifts only because it is less dense than air. When you make air lesser and lesser dense, but leave helium stoppered up at the same density, you'll lose lift
[20:30] <Colin_> Dan-K2VOL: yes, I understand that
[20:31] <Dan-K2VOL> Until you have reached a point where the lift is so low that it no longer climbs
[20:32] <Colin_> To get a hover you want constant (max) volume and a constant weight right?
[20:32] <Dan-K2VOL> no, you want lift equal to weight
[20:33] <Colin_> so, you err on the side of caution and slightly over fill from the expected max volume - then you let some of the gas bleed off through an over pressure valve to prevent a burst
[20:33] <jcoxon> Colin_, but the foil won't burst :-)
[20:33] <jcoxon> latex will
[20:33] <Colin_> Dan-K2VOL: as my example climbs that will happen - when the density of the air has reduced the lift
[20:34] <Colin_> jcoxon: the foil might burst - but more likely the filler seal will fail
[20:34] <Colin_> I'm suggesting a pressure relief valve to prevent that
[20:34] <Dan-K2VOL> yes, it will reach a float, but I don't think it will at the altitude you're thinking it will
[20:35] <Colin_> sure, it will hover slightly higher because some of the gas will be vented, but it will still hover
[20:35] <Dan-K2VOL> A pressure relief valve would be great for a superpressure balloon, but you're going to need it to be able to superpressure, or it's not going to stay in the air for many days
[20:35] <Colin_> in theory you will get a faster ascent because the envelope will have more volume initially
[20:36] <Colin_> Err.. I'm talking about superpressure balloons here - not latex ones
[20:36] <jcoxon> Colin_, but if you vent gas you aren't super-pressuring
[20:37] <Colin_> Yes you are, maybe to a lesser degree but it's still pressurised
[20:37] <Dan-K2VOL> he could be
[20:37] <jcoxon> yeah okay :-)
[20:38] <Dan-K2VOL> that would be a fine way to do it, you just likely won't last for years in the air like the all-sealed NASA GHOST balloons did
[20:38] <Colin_> more gas than required for the hover gives a fater ascent - but you then need to get rid of some to prevent a burst at the hover alt
[20:38] <Colin_> s/fater/faster/
[20:39] <jcoxon> yeah i get that
[20:39] <Colin_> Dan-K2VOL: I guess that depends on how good the valve is
[20:39] <jcoxon> the answer to your first question is no no one has tried it (at least on an amateur level)
[20:39] <Dan-K2VOL> Colin_ however, just to make sure we're on the same page, you said "once the volume stops increasing the lift won't change. The mass of the gas remains constant" that's not the case, when the volume stops increasing, there will still be excessive lift, which will carry the balloon higher and higher, with the pressure differential increasing, and lift continually decreasing until you reach lift=weight
[20:39] <Dan-K2VOL> Which may or may not be above your pressure overflow valve's release point
[20:40] <Colin_> ah, maybe I should have said "displacement" rather than lift
[20:40] <jcoxon> just to add to the fun... day/night cycles :-p
[20:40] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd ask around the GPSL mailing list, I'd be surprised if it hasn't been tried, these ballooning experiments seem to often go undocumented on the interweb
[20:41] <NigeyS> oh jcoxon did you pgoram in 3 cycles to picoatlas? i saw it jumped from cycle 0 to cycle 2, was there a cycle 1 ?
[20:41] <NigeyS> program*
[20:41] <Dan-K2VOL> Either way, you should try it, so we can tell if it's a good way to conquer the world via balloon.
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[20:41] <Colin_> Anyway - I think the first one we try will be a simple payload on a latex type balloon
[20:42] <jcoxon> Colin_, hehe good plan
[20:42] <jcoxon> simple latex 1.5g up and down
[20:42] <Colin_> then maybe add a camera for a second flight
[20:42] <jcoxon> 1.5kg
[20:42] <jcoxon> oops
[20:42] <jcoxon> NigeyS, yes i did though i made a small mistake in the code which meant that it dropped into night mode between 1600 and 1700 (the usual using < instead of <=
[20:42] <Colin_> although we might try lots of telemetry data chans since thats low risk
[20:43] <jcoxon> NigeyS, now fixed
[20:43] <NigeyS> ahh woopsie :P
[20:43] <Colin_> temperate etc
[20:44] <NigeyS> right coffee, and hunt for some lightweight foam
[20:44] <Colin_> jcoxon: one of the tings we will want to do is get the school involved in tracking other launches
[20:44] <Colin_> to keep their interest up
[20:45] <jcoxon> Colin_, great idea
[20:45] <jcoxon> also teaches stuff about radio
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[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:45] <Colin_> I'm hoping the camb-hams will allow us to use Flossie
[20:45] <jcoxon> hehe they'll love it
[20:46] <Colin_> well we might move on to running a foundation course I suppose once we get them hooked
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[20:48] <NigeyS> hmm foam off an ironing board might be light enough
[20:53] <Dan-K2VOL> We're doing some calibration of the pitot tube system, used a known volume bag to inflate while measuring
[20:54] <Dan-K2VOL> Improved the tube itself by making it much thinner, using semirigid plastic tubing so we don't have to use that fat plastic nozzle for support
[21:01] <Lunar_Lander> pitot tube?-> measuring air density?
[21:02] <Dan-K2VOL> The end goal is measuring the volume of gas you've put into a balloon as you're filling it
[21:02] <Dan-K2VOL> The direct measurement is airspeed in the fill tube
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[21:07] <Lunar_Lander> ah, very nice
[21:07] <Lunar_Lander> so that we can finally get an exact measurement of inflation
[21:08] <Dan-K2VOL> Lunar_Lander yes. It's really simple hardware, and if it works it will be very easy to duplicate. Our goal is to make it widely available if it works
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> that is cool
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> and it will prevent over- and underinflation
[21:10] <stilldavid> Dan-K2VOL, I'm hitting NCAR tomorrow, will be printing out the list before I leave work
[21:10] <Dan-K2VOL> before you leave work today?
[21:10] <stilldavid> Zuph, ^^^^
[21:11] <stilldavid> yeah. I can make modifications tomorrow morning, but no printer at home :)
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> Dan are you US- or UK-based?
[21:11] <Dan-K2VOL> ahh, no phone that can read google docs? :-P
[21:11] <Dan-K2VOL> Lunar_Lander, US
[21:11] <stilldavid> well, yeah, but it's nice to have something I can check off and such
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> ah cool
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> I'm GER-based :P
[21:12] <Dan-K2VOL> Gotcha. How many hours from now stilldavid?
[21:12] <stilldavid> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=time+until+jan+20+8am+mst
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> and stilldavid, you'll actually visit the NCAR?
[21:12] <Dan-K2VOL> Stilldavid lol I mean till you print it
[21:13] <stilldavid> ah, ~4 hours. and I can always look again tomorrow
[21:13] <stilldavid> Lunar_Lander, yeah, I've got an appointment to browse the archives at NCAR
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> hey that's cool
[21:13] <Dan-K2VOL> K I will clean it up after I leave work in an hour
[21:13] <stilldavid> they have some balloon-related materials that might be interesting
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:13] <Lunar_Lander> and which they probably don't have online yet
[21:14] <Dan-K2VOL> Correct
[21:14] <stilldavid> Dan-K2VOL, just holler if you need more time, didn't mean to put the pressure on :)
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> you surely have Morris' Scientific Ballooning Handbook already?
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:14] <Dan-K2VOL> haha
[21:14] <Dan-K2VOL> the 1970s NCAR book?
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> yes, 1975 I think
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> by Alvin Morris it is
[21:14] <stilldavid> http://www.gasballooning.net/BT-1777%20Scientific%20Ballooning.pdf
[21:15] <Dan-K2VOL> I don't think many amateur balloonists have read it due to the dense math and non-searchable PDFs that seem to exist
[21:15] <stilldavid> go go gadget internet, eh?
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> actually
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> the NASA Goddard Balloon Database has it and the NCAR has it
[21:15] <stilldavid> this one has some decent OCR on it looks like
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> the NASA scan is not so nice IMO
[21:15] <Dan-K2VOL> nice, I'll have to check that one out
[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> the NCAR scan is nice and clean
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> stilldavid I don't think it's OCR, it's just the typewriter
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> some other papers from the Goddard Database have OCR and it looks really ugly
[21:16] <stilldavid> hm, well, it was searchable for me :)
[21:17] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> here's the NCAR scan: http://nldr.library.ucar.edu/views/?collId=technotes&itemId=TECH-NOTE-000-000-000-252
[21:18] <Dan-K2VOL> Ah yes, nice find Lunar_Lander, I'd been suffering with a reaaaaaly crappy scan of it for years
[21:18] <Zuph> Just saw the ping.
[21:18] <Dan-K2VOL> found it here too http://www.xlta.org/library/noaa/Scientific_Ballooning_Handbook_Part1.pdf
[21:18] <Zuph> stilldavid: We'll keep you busy tomorrow :-p
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, that is the same link as there
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> Dan-K2VOL only that you also need Part 2 too ;)
[21:19] <Dan-K2VOL> Just showing the example
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> but you surely already have the link
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:19] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: What are your feelings on hot air soldering MLF packages?
[21:20] <jcoxon> hmmm this ublox 5 gps modules power saving mode saves 4mA
[21:20] <stilldavid> Zuph, I have no doubt
[21:20] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph: i've done it on our TX module, but you have to either use the X-Ray to look for shorts, or have some spares for blowing up :-)
[21:21] <Dan-K2VOL> And now that we have that dental x-ray, we need to figure out a way to use it
[21:22] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Galen's wife said she might be able to get us some scintillation material, all we'd need to do after that is mount a long exposure digicam behind it.
[21:23] <Dan-K2VOL> AWESOME!!!
[21:23] <Zuph> Yeah
[21:23] <Dan-K2VOL> stilldavid do you have a tripod?
[21:23] <stilldavid> I sure do
[21:24] <Dan-K2VOL> Cool, I was thinking that would be better than an arm cramp
[21:24] <stilldavid> hah, yeah. I'm really curious how the setup is going to be, if there's a big desk I can set up on or what
[21:25] <stilldavid> all of it, really. if the archives are in some basement or something or what
[21:25] <Dan-K2VOL> We're going to go through the list shortly and make sure they're not already online too
[21:25] <Dan-K2VOL> I know they aren't in bulk, but individually they might have appeared through different sources
[21:26] <Dan-K2VOL> Some of them seem familiar
[21:27] <stilldavid> I should offer to volunteer to digitize them with their (probably) fancy machines and whatnot
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> couldn't that damage the cam?
[21:27] <Dan-K2VOL> Interesting idea. Did they say that you could only photgraph them?
[21:28] Action: stilldavid digs up email
[21:28] <stilldavid> "You may take pictures for personal use, that isn't a problem. The materials are under copyright, so that cannot be used for any other purpose without permission."
[21:28] <stilldavid> so no posting to the public Internet :(
[21:29] <Zuph> Bah
[21:29] <Zuph> Copyright law.
[21:29] <stilldavid> I'll ask permission in person to see what the status is
[21:29] <Dan-K2VOL> We'll see, I think that's their blanket "we haven't yet bothered to look at the copyright of these docs are"
[21:29] <stilldavid> exactly
[21:29] <Dan-K2VOL> I wouldn't
[21:29] <stilldavid> no?
[21:29] <Dan-K2VOL> I'd rather you not get thrown out on your ear when they learn you're interested in more than personal use :-)
[21:29] <stilldavid> I don't feel comfortable sharing them beyond here, though
[21:30] <stilldavid> oh, fair point
[21:30] <Dan-K2VOL> We can agree not to post them publicly
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[21:30] <Lunar_Lander> good idea
[21:31] <Dan-K2VOL> The stuff that we're actually interested in will be scientific reports made by a US government agency. They cannot copyright the docs they create
[21:31] <Dan-K2VOL> I think that there may be copyrighted other things in there, manuals, specsheets, stuff from vendors
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[21:32] <Dan-K2VOL> but we can keep a lid on the results and discuss later if any are clearly not copyrightable
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[21:33] <Dan-K2VOL> I think the reason this is available at all is the Freedom of Information act
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:33] <Dan-K2VOL> one of the few things I like about our US govt
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[21:34] <Dan-K2VOL> Well, I shouldn't say that, but one of the few radical changes they've made in the last 20 years that have really benefitted citizen science
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> like the NIST copying reports for free also
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> they have some nice papers on balloon radiosondes
[21:36] <Dan-K2VOL> that's cool
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> I mean they are from the 1930s
[21:36] <Dan-K2VOL> I hope we can all centralize this amateur ballooning info someday
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> but still nice reads
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:37] <stilldavid> well, I'll be shooting in JPG fine resolution
[21:37] <stilldavid> am thinking of a way to keep everything straight and in order
[21:37] <Dan-K2VOL> Hmm
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> here is another thing: http://www.geophysica.fi/index.php?action=authorsearch&name=V%E4is%E4l%E4
[21:38] <Dan-K2VOL> You don't happen to have an Eye-Fi card do you? :-P
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> by the inventor and founder of the Vaisala radiosonde company of Finland
[21:38] <stilldavid> Dan-K2VOL, I wish :(
[21:38] <stilldavid> I have the cable to save to my laptop
[21:39] <stilldavid> well, and the software
[21:39] <Dan-K2VOL> Hmm, could you take the pics via the software, and just put them into folders for each doc? (maybe index number the docs so you don't have to do much typing there)
[21:40] <Dan-K2VOL> Just trying to think of the fastest, easiest way
[21:40] <stilldavid> I'll have to play with the software
[21:40] <Dan-K2VOL> What model cam is it?
[21:40] <Dan-K2VOL> U have mac or PC?
[21:41] <stilldavid> nikon, mac
[21:43] <natrium42> what nikon?
[21:43] <natrium42> nikon has an sdk to do tethered capture
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[21:43] <stilldavid> natrium42, I've used it before with my last camera
[21:43] <Dan-K2VOL> I wonder if there's a way to do it with a single keypress
[21:44] <natrium42> ok, okay
[21:44] <stilldavid> there is :) let me install it again tonight and play with the new cam and see how it goes
[21:44] <Dan-K2VOL> Cool
[21:44] <natrium42> is it D7000?
[21:44] <stilldavid> natrium42, yeah
[21:44] <natrium42> cool, they just released the sdk for it
[21:44] <natrium42> not too long ago
[21:44] <stilldavid> http://www.flickr.com/photos/stilldavid/3032917132/in/set-72157608527965705/
[21:44] <stilldavid> I used the capture software for that shoot
[21:44] <Dan-K2VOL> Do you guys have an OCR app? We may need to take the pics as TIFFs instead of JPGs depending on the OCR app
[21:45] <stilldavid> we wound up putting the camera in a plywood box with a plexi front
[21:45] <stilldavid> making it inaccessible
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[21:51] <NigeyS> hey phil!
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> jpeg is easy to convert
[22:01] <Dan-K2VOL> The point is how does OCR software like JPGs and JPGs converted to TIFF etc
[22:01] <stilldavid> Dan-K2VOL, it's jpg or RAW
[22:02] <stilldavid> RAW files are ~22MB per
[22:02] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah lol sounds like JPG it is!
[22:02] <stilldavid> :)
[22:02] <stilldavid> I can batch resize jpgs a lot easier if need be
[22:02] <stilldavid> it would take hours on my macbook pro to batch export raw files
[22:04] <Dan-K2VOL> headin home now, 5PM here. Will catch up with you stilldavid in a little while
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[22:04] <stilldavid> cool, see ya in a bit Dan-K2VOL
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[22:15] <SpeedEvil> In practice - at very high res - it works fine
[22:16] <fsphil> hiya NigeyS
[22:16] <NigeyS> hey fsphil
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[22:23] <Elwell> stilldavid: nice pic (can shot)
[22:23] Action: Elwell used a slightly lower-tech rig for scanning QSL cards for the radio club
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[22:26] <Elwell> http://www.flickr.com/photos/elwell/5343800866/in/set-72157625667743349/
[22:27] <griffonbot> @LVL1WhiteStar: White Star and our home hackerspace @lvl1hackerspace featured in this week's LEO magazine: http://leoweekly.com/news/hacktory #arhab [http://twitter.com/LVL1WhiteStar/status/27854620277608450]
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[22:32] <stilldavid> Elwell, hrm?
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[22:33] <Elwell> none of this hi-res decent camera malarkey. quickcam pro clamped to a piece of floorboard in a workmate. Mk2 version had a plastic tray for a white background
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[22:57] <juxta> how well does it work Elwell? :)
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[23:16] <Elwell> juxta: see the snaps in same set.
[23:17] <Elwell> all I wanted was a digitised small res copy front n back of the (several thousand) cards that are kicking round the shack
[23:18] <stilldavid> ah, QSL cards
[23:18] <fsphil> do you send out QSL cards?
[23:18] <Elwell> I've done 4-500 so far, now need to work on a script to extract the 2 parts of adjacent images and stitch em together
[23:18] <Elwell> fsphil: club does, aye
[23:19] <Elwell> (thursday evenings 20:30 > 22:00 CET normally on HF)
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[00:00] --- Thu Jan 20 2011