highaltitude.log.20110118

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[00:18] Action: griffonbot is GriffonBot [http://github.com/ssb/griffonbot]
[00:18] Action: griffonbot is following: #arhab #ukhas #cusf #atlasballoon
[00:18] Action: griffonbot is tracking emails sent to ukhas@googlegroups.com
[00:19] <DanielRichman> griffonbot, now be good
[00:19] <DanielRichman> no more random disconnections >.>
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[00:19] <nevyn> hrm
[00:19] <DanielRichman> you have got to be kidding me.
[00:19] <Elwell> it wasn't random, it was a deliberate act of winding you up :-)
[00:20] <nevyn> is the tracking site still supposed to be following the UK launch?
[00:20] <nevyn> or is there a launch in south aust today or did I misread email?
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[00:22] Action: griffonbot is GriffonBot [http://github.com/ssb/griffonbot]
[00:22] Action: griffonbot is following: #arhab #ukhas #cusf #atlasballoon
[00:22] Action: griffonbot is tracking emails sent to ukhas@googlegroups.com
[00:22] <griffonbot> :-)
[00:22] <griffonbot> @Daniel_Richman: #arhab griffonbot :D [http://twitter.com/Daniel_Richman/status/27158906207735808]
[00:22] <DanielRichman> better.
[00:22] <griffonbot> @darksidelemm: http://yfrog.com/h8azzwlj Balloon inflation... #projecthorus #arhab [http://twitter.com/darksidelemm/status/27158951271342081]
[00:22] <DanielRichman> now I need some sleep
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[00:35] <sighmon> shenki: did you get a chance to ask where the balloons were sourced?
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[00:36] <vk5gr> joel looks bored :-)
[00:37] <vk5gr> dont let the balloon go!
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[00:38] <Darkside> heh grant
[00:38] <Darkside> i need DL-FLDIGI help
[00:39] <Darkside> DanielRichman: jonsowman
[00:39] <Darkside> anyone
[00:39] <Darkside> fsphil:
[00:39] <Darkside> whats the command line option to make dl-fldigi listen on all interfaces
[00:39] <Darkside> need this ASAP
[00:41] <vk5gr> sounds like a Terry question - not familiar enough with it myself
[00:42] Nick change: rambo -> DagoRed
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[01:01] <Elwell> heh, is that a standard hozelock garden-hose connector?
[01:02] <Elwell> didn't know they were rated for helium :-)
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[01:09] <Elwell> is that youstream live? ie just away now?
[01:11] <Elwell> I guess so looking at the tracker :-)
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[01:23] <Gillerire> why are there two balloons?
[01:23] <SpeedEvil> Gillerire: there are 4
[01:23] <SpeedEvil> Gillerire: basically it was a case of randomly add balloons until it lifts
[01:24] <SpeedEvil> Well - 2 were planned
[01:24] <SpeedEvil> but the 2 little ones were unplanned
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[01:26] <sighmon> SpeedEvil: do you know the difference between the payloads horus & darkside?
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[01:27] <SpeedEvil> Not off-hand.
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[01:32] Action: SpeedEvil ponders a tiny food warmer.
[01:32] <SpeedEvil> I could actually do with a numerically controlled pie defroster and cooker.
[01:34] <Elwell> mmmm Pie.
[01:35] Action: nevyn suspects one is a modsendat board flying as a test.
[01:36] <nevyn> and the other is a proven design.
[01:43] <Darkside> ok
[01:43] <Darkside> sup all
[01:44] <nevyn> hi Darkside
[01:44] <nevyn> I assume the darkside tracker payload is the modsendat?
[01:46] <Darkside> yep
[01:46] <Darkside> im not receiving that one unfortunately
[01:47] <nevyn> VK5ZSN still is recieving it.
[01:48] <nevyn> is there a mission profile for this launch online.
[01:48] <Darkside> not really
[01:48] <nevyn> payloads frequencies etc?
[01:48] <Darkside> there will be a writeup after
[01:49] <nevyn> so is there anything other than the telemetry flying?
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[01:51] <nevyn> Darkside: so is temp 2 on the darkside payload the onboard DS1820? and temp one is an additional DS1820?
[01:53] <Darkside> nah
[01:53] <Darkside> one is the pressure sensor, one is the DS18b20
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[01:55] <Darkside> hey grant
[01:55] <Darkside> nextg is working well
[01:55] <Darkside> :D
[01:56] <vk5gr> darkside looks like it will land near the paddocks owned by a family of one of the guys in my wifes workplace who is watching the tracker live :-)
[01:56] <Darkside> hahahahaha
[01:56] <Darkside> oh nice
[01:57] <Darkside> hmm why isnt joel on IRC
[01:57] <Darkside> grrrrrrr
[01:57] <Darkside> im gonna ring him :P
[01:57] <vk5gr> wish I was out there with you - did Adrian ZSN come along in the end?
[01:57] <Darkside> also want to check the predicted burst
[01:57] <Darkside> nah
[01:57] <Darkside> hes home
[01:57] <vk5gr> burst is over burrdet
[01:59] <Darkside> not sure about that
[02:00] <Darkside> well, the altitude
[02:01] <nevyn> vk5gr: I see data relayed from ZSN so I'd suggest yes.
[02:02] <Darkside> nah
[02:02] <Darkside> he isnt on teh chase
[02:02] <Darkside> he's back at home
[02:02] <Darkside> hiw 4wd is currently out of service
[02:02] <nevyn> ah.
[02:02] <nevyn> :(
[02:02] <nevyn> sad times
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[02:06] <Darkside> ok
[02:06] <Darkside> we're just grabbing some pies in murray bridge
[02:06] <Darkside> then we'll be off again
[02:06] Action: nevyn likes pie.
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[02:09] <Darkside> haha my payload is more insulated than terry's
[02:09] <nevyn> yeah I did notice this.
[02:10] <nevyn> someone's getting really cold quite quickly
[02:10] <Darkside> kind of sucks really
[02:10] <Darkside> i wanted to drop the mobsendat down to -30 or so
[02:10] <Darkside> :P
[02:10] <Darkside> wow this laptop is getting WARM
[02:10] <Darkside> faaaark
[02:11] <nevyn> Darkside: how is terry's telemetry module working out altitude? is there a barometric on it or is it just using GPS data?
[02:11] <cef> what's the max altitude that horus has gotten to in a setup like this?
[02:11] <Darkside> gps
[02:11] <Darkside> about 35km
[02:11] <Darkside> we're probably gonna hit 30km today
[02:11] <Darkside> ascent rate was a bit fast
[02:13] <Elwell> slower ascent rate generally goes to higer alt?
[02:13] <nevyn> 4.5m/s
[02:13] <nevyn> Darkside: is the modsen altitude report from the gps data or normalised barometric?
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[02:13] <Darkside> gps
[02:15] <shenki> Darkside: yo
[02:15] <sighmon> Darkside: what voltage do things stop working at?
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[02:16] <Darkside> uhmmmmm
[02:16] <Darkside> depends lol
[02:16] <Darkside> i estimate about 4v things will go to shit
[02:17] <cef> that's input to the regulator? the board uses 3.3v, so whatever the regulator needs above that.
[02:17] <shenki> the radio needs more than 3.3v
[02:17] <nevyn> 4v.
[02:18] <nevyn> there's a protection diode before the linear reg
[02:18] <nevyn> so 3.3+headroom + .6v even with a Low dropout reg you need about 4.5v minimum
[02:19] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Juicy-Couture-PINK-MICRO-WAVE-OVEN-w-CUPCAKE-Charm-NITB-/190488970636?pt=Designer_Jewelry&hash=item2c5a07058c - Ok - that oven is too small.
[02:20] <Darkside> shenki: the radio needs 3.8V
[02:20] <Darkside> also
[02:20] <Darkside> i think the voltage meter is after the diode
[02:20] <Darkside> would have t check the schematics
[02:21] <Darkside> yeah it is
[02:21] <Darkside> shenki: we might get there first
[02:23] <cef> wonder how much the battery is affected by the cold?
[02:24] <Darkside> the lithiums, not much
[02:24] <Darkside> we use energizer lithium primaries, they work very very well at ridiculous temperatures
[02:26] <sighmon> Darkside: is the speed airspeed? (not landspeed)
[02:26] <Darkside> nah its land speed
[02:26] <Darkside> well, relative to land anyway, whateber
[02:26] <Darkside> its what the GPS outputs :P
[02:29] <Darkside> shenki: got lunch yet?
[02:29] <Darkside> heh
[02:29] Action: nevyn metions that the barametric is there for higher precision altitude than the gps can provide...
[02:29] <SpeedEvil> only with comparison to a reference pressure
[02:29] <SpeedEvil> good GPS is only a few m out
[02:30] <cef> has anyone thought of automated releasing of balloon pressure as you get near burst height?
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[02:32] <Darkside> cef: we're looked at doing cutdowns
[02:32] <Darkside> also who is who here?
[02:33] <Darkside> who is here from the arduino miniconf group?
[02:33] <cef> me
[02:33] <nevyn> me.
[02:34] <Darkside> haha ok
[02:34] <Darkside> real names?
[02:34] <Darkside> so i know who is who :P
[02:34] <shenki> Darkside: 439 even for simplex comms
[02:34] <vk5fnet> has horus been launched yet?
[02:34] <vk5fnet> hi shenki
[02:34] <nevyn> I know it's not the fashion but /whois works on me.
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[02:34] <Darkside> shenki: ok
[02:34] <shenki> vk5fnet: o/
[02:34] <nevyn> Darkside: Grant Diffey VK3FBAE.
[02:34] <Darkside> shenki: are you till in tailem mebd/
[02:34] <andyg> andyg = @geekscape from Melbourne HackerSpace and part of the LCA2011 Arduino mini-conf.
[02:34] <vk5fnet> shenki: did you sit your license exam yet?
[02:35] <cef> <- Stuart (won't be at the miniconf tho.. can't make it to LCA this year)
[02:35] <shenki> vk5fnet: nup
[02:35] <vk5fnet> hi cef
[02:35] <Darkside> still in tailem bend*
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[02:36] <cef> vk5fnet: haha.. hiding there.. I managed to avoid being drafted for network work at the conf this year by not going. :P
[02:36] <Darkside> no he hasnt yet
[02:36] <Darkside> haha
[02:36] <vk5fnet> cef: likewise. although i hear some folks have issue with our simple setup =P
[02:36] <shenki> vk5fnet: im in
[02:36] <shenki> chase-vk5vzi
[02:37] <shenki> Darkside: we're driving now
[02:37] Action: vk5fnet tracks
[02:37] <cef> vk5fnet: I blame steve. :D
[02:37] <vk5fnet> shenki: not on aprs.fi ?
[02:39] <vk5fnet> cef: i won't. its the personalities all round, TBH.
[02:40] <vk5fnet> cef: not invented here has been a big problem... even when we did it. mostly a function of "previous stuff was undocumented and didn't work"
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[02:41] <vk5fnet> shenki: anyhow, how do we keep track of #14 ?
[02:42] <cef> vk5fnet: true, but you gotta admit that blaming steve has a historical thing about it.. and it almost always works. ;) (yes, I'm being silly)
[02:42] <vk5fnet> ah, here we go; http://spacenear.us/tracker/
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[02:44] Nick change: andyg_ -> andyg
[02:45] <shenki> vk5fnet: no aprs, use http://spacenear.us
[02:45] <vk5fnet> shenki: ta.
[02:47] <cef> 30k!
[02:48] <cef> and pop
[02:48] <shenki> 2[A
[02:49] <Darkside> wow net connection is craaaaaap ou there
[02:49] <cef> Darkside: you were dead on with the 30k figure.
[02:50] <sighmon> Darkside: what speed should the parachute slow descent to?
[02:52] <shenki> same :)
[02:52] <cef> sighmon: that'd depend on the air pressure.. it seems to be slowing down a bit as it drops.. to my untrained eye, this is a good sign. ;)
[02:52] <shenki> sighmon: not much, because of the large payoad an small chute
[02:53] <shenki> we put a small chute on so that it didn't float too long, becaus we've got stuff on tonight
[02:53] <shenki> Darkside: you there?
[02:54] <shenki> Darkside: please go on 439 simplex
[02:58] <shenki> Darkside: ping?
[03:02] <cef> hope it doesn't land on the road or the railway line.. that'd be annoying.
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[03:09] <sighmon> looks like it'll land pretty close to loxton rd
[03:09] <Darkside> shenki: back online now
[03:09] <Darkside> kind of
[03:09] <Darkside> we ost all signal for a while there
[03:09] <shenki> ok
[03:09] <Darkside> horus/ darkside, and 3G
[03:09] <shenki> get on 439 simplex
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[03:10] <k-man> hi
[03:10] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[03:10] <k-man> did the balloon land already?
[03:11] <k-man> where does one buy a balloon for a high altitude project? i sourced one from china but it was like US$200 delivered
[03:11] <SpeedEvil> see the wiki on the topic
[03:11] <SpeedEvil> it's got links to stuff
[03:11] <SpeedEvil> search balloon
[03:11] <vk5fnet> k-man: what country are you in?
[03:11] <k-man> australia
[03:12] <cef> if you mean horus, according to http://spacenear.us/tracker/ it's still 7k up but coming down.
[03:12] <k-man> awesome
[03:13] <vk5fnet> Altitude: 6120 m Rate: -7.6 m/s
[03:13] <vk5fnet> thats about 30km/h
[03:14] <k-man> does it have a parachute? or is it just the drag of the burst balloon that slows it down?
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[03:16] <cef> parachute
[03:16] <cef> wodner if they'll have net enough (or the right people) to stream the recovery?
[03:16] <shenki> the signal is quite good out here
[03:17] <shenki> Darkside: might be able to ustream it
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[03:19] <cef> hrm.. no telemetry from darkside anymore. :(
[03:20] <Gillerire> no surprise that the red car got there first - red always goes faster!
[03:20] <shenki> the blue car has stopped updating it's location
[03:20] <shenki> dunno where they are
[03:20] <Gillerire> hehe, assumed that
[03:21] <CapnKernel1> Didn't stop at the pub in Perponda?
[03:21] <shenki> we have optus internet
[03:21] <shenki> they are on telstra
[03:21] <Gillerire> are you in red shenki?
[03:21] <shenki> as are our phones
[03:21] <shenki> Gillerire: yes
[03:21] <shenki> so we cant call them
[03:22] <CapnKernel1> Do you have a visual on it yet?
[03:22] <shenki> nope
[03:22] <k-man> i can't find any reference to sourcing a balloon on the wiki (the wiki in the topic right?)
[03:23] Action: cef suggests a higher voltage battery next time..
[03:23] <CapnKernel1> Why higher voltage?
[03:24] <Gillerire> shenki: do you need permission to head into the fields/paddocks?
[03:24] <shenki> Gillerire: pfft :)
[03:24] <Gillerire> excellent ;)
[03:24] <CapnKernel1> How about higher capacity?
[03:24] <cef> the radio needs 3.8v.. so darkside (which is the modsendat) probably stopped transmitting due to low battery
[03:24] <cef> CapnKernel1: there's that option, yes. :P
[03:25] <CapnKernel1> Regardless of voltage you need a certain amount of joules.
[03:26] <CapnKernel1> Less than 2 mins airtime left at that rate of descent.
[03:26] <shenki> thre's some sheep out there
[03:26] <shenki> in the paddock
[03:27] <cef> long as there isn't a bull
[03:27] <CapnKernel1> fierce creatures them sheep
[03:28] <shenki> sighted!
[03:28] <Gillerire> you seen black sheep shenki?
[03:28] <shenki> white sheep
[03:28] <Gillerire> no, the movie black sheep
[03:28] <Gillerire> it's from NZ :)
[03:29] <shenki> oh
[03:29] <vk5fnet> the one with GM in it?
[03:29] <shenki> yes, i think i have
[03:29] <sighmon> has it landed? seems to have stopped updating.
[03:29] <shenki> bbl, going to get ballon
[03:29] <shenki> yes it dropped bellow the horizon
[03:29] <Gillerire> low budget film about crazy mutant sheep
[03:29] <vk5fnet> Gillerire: yes, thats a corker =)
[03:29] <shenki> going to get the balloon
[03:29] <shenki> Darkside: we're parked on the side of the road, closest spot to the balloon
[03:29] <Gillerire> good luck
[03:30] <shenki> -34.9497, 140.0354
[03:30] <shenki> last position we got
[03:30] <vk5fnet> shenki: looks like its in the middle of wheat field
[03:30] <vk5fnet> from the maps satellite images
[03:31] <shenki> vk5fnet: yeah, it's grazed
[03:31] <Gillerire> damn optus
[03:32] <vk5fnet> shenki: on the other side of the rise it changes
[03:32] <vk5fnet> AFAICT
[03:34] <CapnKernel1> horus went so much higher than pico :-)
[03:35] <cef> CapnKernel1: the UK is scared of heights. :P
[03:36] <Gillerire> haha, pico almost headed off to France
[03:36] <CapnKernel1> Yeah, few more mins and would have got its little footsies wet.
[03:37] <CapnKernel1> And we can't have that now, can we my preciouses?
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[03:59] <cef> gone awfully quiet in here...
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[04:05] <cef> g'day bdale
[04:05] <bdale> hi
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[04:07] <cef> you missed the mobsendat launch and landing... they went into a field to retrieve it.. haven't heard from them since.
[04:08] <Gillerire> there was sheep!
[04:08] <andyg> That explains their disappearance
[04:09] <CapnKernel1> all the sheep are disappearing?
[04:10] <CapnKernel1> the balloon landed in the middle of a wheatfield.
[04:11] <CapnKernel1> Which I guess is a bit like landing in a cornfield, bdale, except less.... corny.
[04:12] Action: CapnKernel1 stops to think: Do Americans say "corny"? Don't they say "cheesy" instead? If not, when would you use one and not the other? Can something be both corny and cheesy (and does it stain your fingers?)
[04:13] <cef> hoping that the reason darkside stopped transmitting 5k from the ground was battery capacity related.
[04:13] <Zuph> CapnKernel1: Yes.
[04:13] <Zuph> There are cheese-covered corn puffs here.
[04:13] <Zuph> But not corn-covered cheese puffs.
[04:15] <CapnKernel1> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheezels
[04:17] <Zuph> CapnKernel1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugles Eaten similarly in America.
[04:17] <Gillerire> this is like some kind of cultural exchange
[04:20] Action: cef pokes shenki and Darkside
[04:21] <bdale> corny and cheesy together sounds like nacho cheese Doritos?
[04:22] <bdale> so, sounds like the mobsendat at least more or less worked?
[04:23] <cef> bdale: yeah.. using the project horus code on it.. not Aiko..
[04:23] <bdale> right
[04:26] <cef> bdale: also looks like when it cut out at 5ish km (it's darkside on http://spacenear.us/tracker/ ) is probably due to the battery voltage running too low for the NTX2 radio..
[04:26] <cef> (ie: it should still have been capable of logging info to the microSD card)
[04:26] <shenki> payload recovered \o/
[04:26] <cef> shenki: woohoo!
[04:27] <shenki> tux is intact
[04:27] <shenki> as were both payloads
[04:27] <sighmon> nice!
[04:27] <cef> wins all round then!
[04:27] <shenki> indeed
[04:27] <shenki> very prickly field we had to walk through
[04:28] <shenki> those of us in shorts are suffering
[04:28] <bdale> I bet
[04:28] <cef> shenki: do you know if the horus code logs to sd?
[04:29] <shenki> cef: yep, both the horus payload and the "darkside" one - which was running the MobSenDat board - logged to SD
[04:29] <shenki> as well as the HD video
[04:29] <cef> shenki: cool.. be interesting to see what happened to 'darkside' at the 5k mark in the descent then
[04:30] <shenki> oh, you stopped seeing telemetry?
[04:30] <shenki> i'd guess that it went out of range of the guys who were trakcing it
[04:30] <cef> shenki: on http://spacenear.us/tracker/ ? yes.
[04:30] <shenki> Darkside was the only person following it who was tracking, and he lost 3G connection
[04:30] <shenki> our car had 3G, but we were only uploading data for the horus payload
[04:30] <cef> aha! that makes sense then.
[04:31] <cef> so has Darkside actually caught you guys up yet?
[04:31] <shenki> yeah, they showed up when we were halfway through the fields
[04:31] <shenki> they're in the car behind us now
[04:32] <shenki> bdale: hello
[04:32] <shenki> bdale: im coming to launch rockets with you sunday week
[04:32] <bdale> cool!
[04:32] <shenki> i plan to fly the mobsendat payload, i think
[04:32] <shenki> the one we flew today
[04:34] <cef> wish I was going to LCA.. damn this not having a job business. :(
[04:34] <shenki> heh, yeah :(
[04:35] <shenki> turns out i just missed a phone call about a second interview for a job whilst i was collecting the balloon
[04:36] Nick change: kleinjt_ -> kleinjt
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[04:37] <cef> yeah .. company I was working for went bust back in September.. fortunately had a bit of cash put aside.. occasional contract stuff only pulls in so much atm..
[04:39] <shenki> fair enough
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[04:40] <cef> had 15 weeks long service and 13 weeks leave owed.. hopefully the govt will pay some of that out.. (got a claim in.. still waiting)
[04:41] <cef> still.. the contract work is picking up again since christmas.. that should make things easier. :D
[04:41] <Darkside> OMG
[04:41] <Darkside> INTERNET
[04:41] <cef> Darkside: heh
[04:42] <shenki> Darkside: welcome to half an our ago
[04:43] <Dan-K2VOL> us White Star Balloon guys have had you guys on text to speech at LVL1 hackerspace for the last two hours, it's been entertaining
[04:43] <Darkside> vk5gr: I WISH TO MAKE A COM PLAINT
[04:43] <Darkside> argh
[04:43] <Darkside> dropped out again
[04:43] <Darkside> optus has coverage, nextg doesn't.....
[04:43] <Darkside> gargh
[04:43] <Darkside> oh hey bdale
[04:44] <cef> you guys need one of those battery powered routers with multiple USB mobile broadband dongles in them
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[04:44] <Darkside> aint gonna help much
[04:44] <Darkside> what we need is a big omnidirectional antenna for NextG on teh car roof
[04:44] <Darkside> if we were in one of the 4wd's, we would have had that
[04:46] Action: cef mumbles about Telstra saying they have Australia covered with NextG.... :P
[04:46] <shenki> Darkside: we're gettin fuel
[04:46] <shenki> it's almost empty
[04:47] <shenki> oh, country town: someone has come up to fill our tank. haven't had that since i was a kid :)
[04:47] <Darkside> ahh ok
[04:47] <Darkside> hahahahaha
[04:47] <Darkside> so you're getting fuel at karoonsa?
[04:47] <Darkside> ok
[04:47] <shenki> yes
[04:48] <shenki> we told you on the radio, but evendently you didn't hear
[04:48] <Darkside> yeah
[04:48] <Darkside> oh yep, my radio got buped off
[04:48] <Darkside> bumped*
[04:48] <Darkside> didn't realise
[04:49] <Darkside> net connection is still qite flaky
[04:49] <shenki> ours is good :D
[04:50] <shenki> checked the email, paid a bill
[04:50] <cef> shenki: aren't you supposed to turn off radio transmitting equipment when you're at a petrol station? :P
[04:50] <Darkside> interesting, i can't nslookup spacenear.us on my windows VM
[04:51] <Darkside> so i can't use chase tracker
[04:51] <Darkside> weeeeeird
[04:52] <cef> Darkside: could put 67.225.195.22 in your hosts file.. but that's a horrid hack
[04:53] <shenki> cef: it says "please switch off all mobile phones"
[04:53] <shenki> we have none of them in operatio n:)
[04:59] <shenki> Darkside: the video is _awesome_
[05:12] <sighmon> shenki: can you bring it to hackerspace on wednesday?
[05:16] <andyg> If there are links to photographs or video of Project Horus 14, particularly the ModSenDat telemetry board, please post links to http://groups.google.com/group/arduino-miniconf
[05:16] <andyg> Also interested in telemetry data, to see that the MobSenDat performed correctly.
[05:18] <Darkside> oh man
[05:18] <Darkside> about time
[05:18] <Darkside> shenki: SCREENSHOT
[05:18] <Darkside> NOW
[05:18] <Darkside> plzkthx
[05:19] <Darkside> or have you gone out of range too :P
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[05:29] <griffonbot> @projecthorus: Payload retrieved, all intact! Heading back to launch site for debrief. #projecthorus #arhab [http://twitter.com/projecthorus/status/27236015936643072]
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[06:05] <Darkside> ok we are back
[06:05] <Dan-K2VOL> congrats
[06:05] <Darkside> well, back at VK5GH's place
[06:09] <nevyn> yay
[06:09] <nevyn> modsendat data upload!!!
[06:09] <nevyn> data presentation competition for LCA
[06:09] <nevyn> "here's a flight please make it pretty."
[06:10] <CapnKernel1> How high do you think you could go with two balloons filled less?
[06:14] <CapnKernel1> An idea for visualising a flight path: http://jon.oxer.com.au/blog/id/353
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[07:14] <Darkside> oh my god
[07:14] <Darkside> the pictures worked so well
[07:14] <Darkside> the video... OMFG
[07:14] <Darkside> OMFGOMFOMFG
[07:14] <andyg> Upload ! Upload !
[07:14] <Darkside> not the video
[07:14] <Darkside> not yet :)
[07:17] <SpeedEvil> :)
[07:18] <Gillerire> when?
[07:19] <Darkside> well im gonna put some pics up in a bit'
[07:19] <nevyn> hrm.
[07:20] <Gillerire> excellent :)
[07:27] Action: CapnKernel1 mutters about Darkside being a big tease
[07:28] <Darkside> :P
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[07:48] <fsphil> I take it it went well then? :P
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[07:48] <Darkside> oh yes
[07:48] <Darkside> very well
[07:48] <Darkside> i just don;t have the video yet lol
[07:49] <Darkside> 22gb worth, and we ddn't have time to copy it
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[07:52] <fsphil> how'd the vhf tx work?
[07:56] <Darkside> gooood
[08:11] <Darkside> http://imgur.com/a/i7M4j
[08:19] <andyg> Thanks for the photos.
[08:20] <The-Compiler> Darkside: how did the launch go in general?
[08:20] <Darkside> very well
[08:22] <The-Compiler> :)
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[08:36] <Darkside> hmm
[08:36] <Darkside> fsphil: wheres the raw data?
[08:36] <Darkside> nvm
[08:37] <fsphil> found it?
[08:38] <Darkside> nah, i got what i wanted off the main page
[08:39] <fsphil> np -- it's here anyway: http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/view.php
[08:40] <fsphil> good data, very few bad strings
[08:42] <CapnKernel1> I'm impressed that the shape of the flightpath matched the planned one so well.
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[08:45] <Darkside> hey jcoxon
[08:45] <Darkside> the VHF module worked *really* well
[08:45] <jcoxon> great!
[08:45] <fsphil> very smooth!
[08:45] <jcoxon> right i'm about to head off to find picoatlas
[08:45] <jcoxon> there has been rain over night - eek
[08:46] <Darkside> jcoxon: http://imgur.com/a/i7M4j
[08:46] <fsphil> tis naked in the rain
[08:46] <fsphil> I'm sure there was a song about that
[08:46] <fsphil> what's the weather like this-morning
[08:46] <fsphil> ?
[08:47] <jcoxon> clear and sunny
[08:49] <jcoxon> bbl
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[09:59] <griffonbot> @jamescoxon: Picoatlas recovered, enough lift left to launch again! Payload still running #ukhas [http://twitter.com/jamescoxon/status/27304019076579328]
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[10:00] <fsphil> haha
[10:00] <jonsowman> yay :D
[10:01] <fsphil> I wonder why it didn't lift again -- must have got tangled
[10:02] <SpikeUK> Yay too!
[10:03] <jonsowman> anyone else having problems with twitter today?
[10:03] <jonsowman> it won't let me tweet :(
[10:05] <Elwell> The SoundBridge M1001 is no longer available for sale through our store. However, we will continue to sell accessories and provide support via the website.
[10:05] <SpikeUK> jonsowman Twitter is working (via website) for me
[10:06] <jonsowman> hum
[10:06] <Elwell> err pastefail
[10:10] <Elwell> Q -- how does picoatlas compare to mobsendat? look similar sort of sized to my non-trained eye
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[10:16] <Laurenceb__> interesting... maybe the suns heating it again
[10:17] <Laurenceb__> or condensation
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> Woo!
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[10:31] <cef> did anyone answer Elwell's question?
[10:31] <cef> (got disconnected... didn't see if there was a response)
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[10:32] <SpeedEvil> nobody did.
[10:33] <cef> Elwell: got a link to info on picoatlas I can review?
[10:33] <cef> MobSenDat: http://www.freetronics.com/products/mobsendat
[10:35] <cef> it was designed for the Arduino and Rocketry miniconfs taking place before the Linux Conference of Australia 2011.
[10:36] <cef> There'll be a Class G rocket launched with a bunch of these and some other boards in it just after the conference.
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> pocoatlas was a very light launch based around seveal large party balloons, and a lightweight GPS+433MHz transmitter
[10:37] <fsphil> not as dramatic as a rocket, but will travel further
[10:38] <SpeedEvil> depends on the rocket.
[10:38] <andyg> cef: Almost. Those attending the LCA2011 rocketry mini-conf will be able to build their own airframe ... to fly either the MobSenDat, BDale's Telemetrum or a custom payload. There may be over a dozen MobSenDats flying in their own rockets.
[10:39] <cef> andyg: ahh ok.. I thought some were going up in a Class G as well?
[10:41] <cef> and yeah, I forgot about the poeple building their own rockets
[10:41] <fsphil> I'm going to have to make a point of visiting linuxconf some year
[10:42] <cef> fsphil: I was hoping to go this year. sadly the place I was working went bust/broke and left me without a job.
[10:42] <fsphil> ack -- have you been before?
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[10:43] <cef> yeah.. I've been most of them. missed 2007, 2009 and now 2011.
[10:43] <cef> oh and I think I missed 06 as well..
[10:44] <cef> yeah 2006, 2007, 2009 and 2011. :/
[10:46] <andyg> cef: BDale and Keith are putting together a Class J rocket (or maybe just class I), which will carry multiple payloads ... perhaps that's what you were thinking of.
[10:46] <cef> andyg: ahh that's it
[10:47] <fsphil> arduinos in rockets, scary thought :)
[10:48] <SpeedEvil> As long as they're not cguidance.
[10:48] <Darkside> looooool
[10:48] <Darkside> andyg: well we got higher than your rocket will get :P
[10:49] <Darkside> how high will a class J go anyway?
[10:50] <andyg> Not sure. At one stage, I believe BDale mentioned 5 km. But, that might have just been a "wish" ... and not what is possible / allowed for the LCA launch.
[10:50] <fsphil> less chance of loosing a rocket
[10:50] <Darkside> heh
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[10:51] <fsphil> 5km is pretty good
[10:51] <andyg> If we are lucky, we may get some of our work onto AusRoc. And, if they are lucky, they might launch one day.
[10:51] <andyg> The next AusRoc probably won't get as high as 30km ... but, it'll get a far way there.
[10:52] <Darkside> hey, you should do a rocket launch from a balloon-borne platform :P
[10:52] <andyg> The really impossible long-shot for us would be to get something onto a Google Lunar X-Prize launch. I think that will trump a balloon for altitude :)
[10:52] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb has dreams of orbit from a small balloon.
[10:53] <SpeedEvil> With his carbon fibre cylinder.
[10:53] <SpeedEvil> (hypothetical as yet)
[10:53] <andyg> Now that we know people with balloons and people with rockets ... it's just a matter of getting them together !
[10:53] <Darkside> :D
[10:53] <Darkside> i wish i could come to the rocketry miniconf tho :(
[10:54] <Darkside> got a wedding on the day before, back in south australia
[10:55] <eroomde> Darkside: where is there a rocketry miniconf?
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[10:55] <eroomde> andyg: you're into rockets?
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[10:55] <eroomde> jcoxon: recovered?
[10:55] <jcoxon> Morning
[10:55] <jcoxon> Yup
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> Morning! :)
[10:55] <Darkside> eroomde: linux conf australia
[10:55] <eroomde> 74 in channel
[10:56] <eroomde> jcoxon: cool - well done
[10:56] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: this was a 'bare' transponder payload - no camera?
[10:56] <jcoxon> And had enough lift to launch again
[10:56] <fsphil> wb jcoxon, nice work!
[10:56] <andyg> eroomde: I'm into HackerSpaces ... which means getting into everything that you possibly can.
[10:56] <eroomde> :)
[10:56] <eroomde> time quickly becomes the enemy!
[10:56] <juxta> heya jcoxon, congrats yesterday
[10:56] <Darkside> andyg: haha
[10:56] <Darkside> yess
[10:56] <jcoxon> Temperature is the key it seems
[10:57] <andyg> Nice thing about building up a HackerSpace ... is that you get to hang out with a collection of people undertaking a good variety of projects.
[10:57] <fsphil> jcoxon, what didn't it lift itself again? got tangled?
[10:57] <fsphil> what=why
[10:57] <jcoxon> Lost one of the happy bday balloons :)
[10:57] <jcoxon> Yeah on a fence
[10:57] <fsphil> haha
[10:58] <Darkside> aww :P
[10:58] <Darkside> my VHF payloads foam box died today :(
[10:58] <fsphil> nearly had the first multi-hop flight :)
[10:58] <jcoxon> So plan : lighten payload, launch again in 2 weeks
[10:58] <Darkside> i taped it up with clear tape, which appears to have shrunk in the cold
[10:58] <futurity> jcoxon: did you recover it in the end?
[10:58] <eroomde> jcoxon: three balloons too?
[10:59] <eroomde> infact what stae were the balloons in?
[10:59] <jcoxon> 3 or 4
[10:59] <eroomde> popped?
[10:59] <eroomde> state*
[10:59] <jcoxon> Pretty good
[10:59] <eroomde> i wonder then why is started to descend
[10:59] <jcoxon> Some green was rubbed off
[10:59] <jcoxon> Lose a small balloon + sunset
[11:00] <eroomde> nice
[11:00] <Darkside> the height graph was interesting
[11:00] <jcoxon> Keen to try again ed?
[11:00] <Darkside> more like a gaussian curve :P
[11:01] <Darkside> instead of a logarithmic plot
[11:01] <eroomde> jcoxon: yes for sure
[11:01] <eroomde> it's the ideal launch for me atm - not too time consuming!
[11:01] <eroomde> work is only going to get busier for me towards march
[11:01] <jcoxon> If we make it waterproof it could land at night and take off again
[11:02] <eroomde> :)
[11:02] <fsphil> landing on water
[11:02] <fsphil> oooooh
[11:02] <eroomde> I was thinking a pack of small foil party balloons would make excellent tracers for normal launches
[11:02] <fsphil> now that's a good idea
[11:03] <eroomde> just to assess the first 200m of wind
[11:03] <jcoxon> Also ill be grateful for help on the code to make it power saving
[11:03] <eroomde> arduino?
[11:03] <jcoxon> Yeah
[11:03] <eroomde> well it doesn't really matter, only a boot loader. there should be good scope for power saving
[11:03] <fsphil> you could do an atlantic crossing like that .. in multiple hops
[11:04] <eroomde> i guess the gps would be the biggest thing and the ublox 5 modules certainly have some power save modes
[11:04] <jcoxon> Yeah, right better do some non balloon stuff. Bbl
[11:05] <eroomde> jcoxon: we could make the next flight a homage to auston powers
[11:05] <eroomde> austin*
[11:05] <eroomde> http://www.allparty.co.uk/Mr-Willy-Foil-Balloon.html
[11:05] <jonsowman> lol
[11:06] <eroomde> yes me too. machine ahs finished a run so i must get back to it
[11:06] <eroomde> well done again
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[11:14] <futurity> Well done From me as well :)
[11:15] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/ieaGw.jpg <-- this was the problem we had today
[11:16] <Darkside> well, not really a problem
[11:16] <Darkside> but it means i can't really use that payload again
[11:16] <juxta> I dont think that was the tape contracting
[11:16] <Darkside> clear plastic tape around the outside of teh box appears to have contracted
[11:16] <Darkside> oh?
[11:17] <juxta> more likely that the foam collapsed when it went very rapidly from a low pressure region to higher pressure
[11:17] <Darkside> also juxta : http://imgur.com/a/i7M4j
[11:17] <juxta> the tape around the foam would have prevented it from breathing
[11:17] <Darkside> tre
[11:17] <Darkside> true
[11:17] <Darkside> go ahead and use those pics
[11:17] <Darkside> lots of good ones there :)
[11:18] <juxta> cheers, will do :)
[11:18] Nick change: Laurenceb__ -> Laurenceb
[11:18] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/gztFK.jpg & http://i.imgur.com/kqSZX.jpg are my favourites
[11:18] <Darkside> also http://i.imgur.com/5WCSv.jpg
[11:19] <juxta> if you watch the video, just as the payload is about to land you can see the dust trail from our car
[11:19] <Darkside> i dont have the video
[11:19] <Darkside> couldnt get it copied in time
[11:20] <juxta> oh okay
[11:20] <Darkside> also joel and i dont want to release the video just yet
[11:20] <Darkside> when we do, we'll do it with fanfare
[11:20] <Darkside> i.e. on slashdot or something
[11:20] <Darkside> it will be this week
[11:20] <juxta> okay
[11:21] <Darkside> we just need to talk to a few people about it first
[11:21] <Darkside> i.e. what we can do about teh charity situation
[11:21] <Darkside> i mean, the charity they chose is pretty good tbh
[11:21] <Darkside> but they chose it before the floods of course
[11:22] <cef> Darkside: that one that had the foam which contracted.. any damage to the electronics?
[11:22] <Darkside> cef: nope
[11:22] <Darkside> i have it on my desk right now
[11:22] <cef> Darkside: ahh that's all good then. :D
[11:22] <Darkside> software had some bugs, we think it was from the SD card
[11:22] <Darkside> i.e. writes potentially taking far too long
[11:23] <cef> ahh.. that is no fun
[11:23] <fsphil> did the vhf module work better than uhf?
[11:23] <Laurenceb> are there onboard photos?
[11:24] <juxta> onboard video Laurenceb, sounds like we'll release it soonish
[11:24] <Laurenceb> neat
[11:24] <Darkside> fsphil: better signal yes
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[11:25] <Darkside> my dad was receiving it until about 5km altitude
[11:25] <Darkside> and he was about 300km away
[11:25] <fsphil> what range?
[11:25] <fsphil> nice
[11:27] <fsphil> I know we can't use it in the air, but it might be a better option once it's on the ground
[11:27] <Darkside> weeeeeel
[11:27] <Darkside> once its on the ground you're gonna have the problem of the antenna... being in the ground
[11:28] <Darkside> if theres a hill in the way you're got problems
[11:29] <fsphil> mmm, yea hills are annoying
[11:29] <fsphil> I think that's what stopped M0DTS hearing hadie after it landed
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[11:30] <fsphil> I suppose HF wouldn't even help there, if the antenna is lying on the ground
[11:31] <Darkside> yup
[11:32] <fsphil> I can't look at the pictures yet (at work) -- did your vhf antenna survive the landing?
[11:32] <Darkside> hmmm
[11:32] <Darkside> if you could make the payload so it would always have an antenna pointing up
[11:32] <Darkside> make a spherical payload with a weight in one side :P
[11:33] <fsphil> the first launch we did had two payloads, with an antenna out the top and bottom
[11:34] <fsphil> a dipole might work too, each end sticking out the other side of the payload
[11:34] <Darkside> mm
[11:34] <Darkside> its more the spacing above the ground
[11:35] <Darkside> oh man
[11:35] <Darkside> make a little tiny balloon launcher, that fills a tiny balloon from a tiny cylinder of helium
[11:35] <Darkside> which pulls up a thin vertical antenna
[11:36] <Darkside> alternatively, move to a country where there aren'y villages every 3km, and just chase the payload like we do :P
[11:36] <fsphil> muhaha
[11:37] <fsphil> if the winds are calm, a chase is possible here
[11:37] <fsphil> ie, if it doesn't travel too far
[11:37] <Darkside> heh
[11:37] <Darkside> not sure how far we went today
[11:38] <fsphil> I'd love to have a tiny cylinder of helium on a launch -- would make a great altitude control, release some helium during the day, top it up at night
[11:39] <Darkside> hehe
[11:43] <x-f> something to gather moisture from air during the day and then drop it at night as a ballast
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[11:45] <fsphil> would be difficult to gather enough
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[11:47] <Laurenceb> peltier maybe
[11:47] <Laurenceb> but lots of power
[11:47] <NigeyS> meep, jus saw james's tweet, is he launching pico again ?
[11:47] <jonsowman> NigeyS: no
[11:47] <jonsowman> well, not immediately anyway
[11:48] <x-f> Laurenceb, solar panels wouldn't give enough power?
[11:48] <Darkside> was thinking about covering a payload with solar pabels
[11:48] <Laurenceb> probably not
[11:48] <Darkside> but they'd crack when you land prolly
[11:49] <fsphil> the moisture would probably freeze
[11:49] <x-f> ah well
[11:49] <NigeyS> jonsowman, ahh okies, thought he was sending it back up today
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[12:09] <NigeyS> 76*(mass of 1 hydrogen atom)*((speed of light)**2)
[12:09] <NigeyS> hmmm
[12:15] <fsphil> I've got some spare H2 molecules if you need them :)
[12:16] <NigeyS> haha hey phil
[12:16] <NigeyS> was reading that story they managed to contain 38 atoms of anti-matter at cern .. not even enough to warm a cup of T apparently :/
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> even the most basic experiments haven't been done.
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> For example - it's never been shown that antimatter falls downwards.
[12:17] <NigeyS> exactly, its tricky old stuff!
[12:18] <NigeyS> storage of it is another issue, 1 degree above absolute zero .. in a room 100metres across for a gram of it .. knightmare
[12:19] <fsphil> a gram of it would be dangerous
[12:21] <NigeyS> would also take 300million years to obtain.. so no worries..lol
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[12:25] <NigeyS> btw fsphil those follow up images were inconclusive :(
[12:26] <fsphil> ah man .. no movement?
[12:26] <NigeyS> no object ..
[12:27] <fsphil> ooh -- potential then
[12:27] <NigeyS> rogue asteroid in a weird orbit or dust on the ccd ..
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[12:29] <fsphil> how can you tell if it's something that hasn't already been identified?
[12:30] <NigeyS> ill run it through a program called astrometrica, it'll flag it as known if the position is already known.
[12:30] <NigeyS> there are 3 more possible targets in the new images though, m40 is a huge area so always something to follow up on if you draw a blank previously
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[12:32] <Laurenceb> http://www.thorlabs.de/NewGroupPage9.cfm?ObjectGroup_ID=3902
[12:32] <Laurenceb> eek the prices
[12:33] <NigeyS> bloody hell
[12:33] <Laurenceb> think ill take a 50K satellite instead
[12:34] <NigeyS> i concur lol .. over 1k .. thats crazyness
[12:35] <fsphil> I'm in the wrong business
[12:36] Action: Laurenceb wonders if you could do the same thing with an edge emitting led and a fibre glued on
[12:38] <Laurenceb> lol at the weee symbol
[12:39] <Laurenceb> i doubt youd be wanting to chuck any of that away
[12:39] Action: Elwell mutters at amsat-uk's failure to post his rotator kit out
[12:52] <Laurenceb> http://www.wellgenius.com/
[12:52] <Laurenceb> ... seriously
[12:55] <Laurenceb> "After 20 plus years of doing business in China and worldwide, Well Genius is now synonymous to high quality products, great services and experiences"
[12:55] <Laurenceb> oh dear
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[12:57] Nick change: UpuZZz -> Upu
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[13:31] <fsphil> the transceiver version of the NTX2 is quite pricey, £44.50
[13:31] <shenki> Darkside, juxta: http://jms.id.au/~shenki/horus14-flight.png
[13:31] <jonsowman> fsphil: the NiM2?
[13:32] <fsphil> It's the NTR2
[13:32] <jonsowman> oh ok
[13:32] <fsphil> they're the same I think, just different package
[13:32] <fsphil> hmm, NiM2 is £35.75
[13:33] Action: fsphil shrugs
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[13:35] <nevyn> anyone interested in tx boards for the modsendat for 145.175Mhz? (australian APRS frequency.
[13:35] <nevyn> I have this plan to modify the trackduino firmware to make a self contained txing aprs tracker.
[13:36] Action: SpeedEvil starts construction of the deathrauino.
[13:36] <Laurenceb> lmao
[13:37] <Laurenceb> arudino powered electric chair
[13:37] <nevyn> so radiometrix can build 300mw modules for that frequency with compatible pinout.
[13:38] <nevyn> I could recieve and decode it on my HT and that'd be totally awesome.
[13:40] <Laurenceb> http://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/acatalog/Loose_Tube_OS1_Cable.html
[13:40] <Laurenceb> ^cheap
[13:42] <SpeedEvil> That is cheap - but there is cheaper
[13:45] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1937
[13:46] Action: SpeedEvil has some singlemode fibre somewhere.
[13:46] Action: SpeedEvil wonders if he can couple the 50mW green pointer into it.
[13:48] <Laurenceb> thor labs have single mode at £14/M
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> I have wondered about the above for cheapy fake 'starlight'
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> Drill large number of holes in roof.
[13:51] <SpeedEvil> Place 1-5 fibres in holes, to approximate brightness
[13:57] <NigeyS> fsphil, present for ya
[13:58] <NigeyS> www.nigey.co.uk/astro/m31-W-300-X1-Luminance-001-UT023836-C-20.jpg
[13:59] <fsphil> the detail!
[14:00] <NigeyS> yups, thats a 5 min image, single exposure
[14:00] <russss> nice
[14:00] <russss> what equipment?
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[14:01] <NigeyS> thats a 17inch planewave, 20MP ccd
[14:01] <SpeedEvil> neat.
[14:02] <NigeyS> still processing, need some more images to stack i think
[14:03] <fsphil> looks good enough to my eyes
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[14:03] <fsphil> I've seen the dust lanes through the scope, but I've never managed to image htem
[14:03] <fsphil> them
[14:03] <fsphil> that's brilliant
[14:04] <NigeyS> theyre a beauty, just uploadinf another edit, tring to get the dust lanes in the core without gover ott on the gamme :/
[14:04] <NigeyS> going*
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[14:09] <NigeyS> www.nigey.co.uk/astro/m31-W-300-X1-Luminance-001-UT023836-C-20-2.jpg
[14:09] <NigeyS> www.nigey.co.uk/astro/m31-W-300-X1-Luminance-001-UT023836-C-20-3.jpg
[14:09] <NigeyS> dunno which is best
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[14:10] <fsphil> pesky internet
[14:11] <NigeyS> lol didnt know you'd split
[14:11] <fsphil> nor did I -- chatting away to myself :)
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[14:11] <NigeyS> lol
[14:11] <fsphil> what was my last message?
[14:12] <NigeyS> <fsphil> that's brilliant
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[14:20] <fsphil> right .. so my super idea for HAB-astrophotography: a tilt sensor to detect when the payload is still, and trigger an exposure. keep it opened until the payload begins to move again
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[14:20] <fsphil> a bit random, but a lot simpler than trying to stabilise the camera
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[14:20] <NigeyS|> gay
[14:20] <fsphil> haha
[14:20] <fsphil> not just me then
[14:20] <fsphil> the internet sucks
[14:20] <NigeyS|> nope, took an age to reconnect :|
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[14:20] <nevyn> gimbal mount!
[14:20] <nevyn> with gyro's
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: MEMS gyros are quite good these days
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> Even teh cheap ones
[14:20] <nevyn> or self righting robot.
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[14:38] <fsphil> the trick is aiming the camera, quickly enough
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[14:45] <nevyn> at apogee?
[14:48] <Laurenceb> just record gyro data and unblur
[14:48] <Laurenceb> providing its not moving too much
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[14:51] <jcoxon> afternoon
[14:52] <fsphil> g'day jcoxon
[14:53] <NigeyS|> james :)
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[15:25] <jcoxon> anyone got feedback on the receiving of hte payload yesterday
[15:26] <NigeyS|> went the wrong way for me :(
[15:26] <fsphil> only comment I remember was to add a couple more $$'s
[15:26] <Colin_> yeah, all payloads need a preamble to let the rx get a lock
[15:28] <jcoxon> yeah i tried that last time
[15:28] <jcoxon> the delay was a late addition
[15:28] <jcoxon> i'll add that in
[15:28] <jcoxon> got a lot of points on the map despite the low altitude of the flight
[15:28] <fsphil> someone mentioned the frequency jumping, but with no insulation that was always going to happen
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[15:29] <Colin_> also... if you are going to leave gaps in the telemetry data then it might be a good idea to send pairs with gaps rather than a gap between every one
[15:30] <fsphil> oh, or repeat it like last time
[15:32] <jcoxon> seems like the transmitter was pretty strong for hte flight
[15:32] <fsphil> you managed to track it down to almost the ground
[15:32] <Colin_> yes, LazyLeopard was copying until almost the landing
[15:33] <jcoxon> fsphil, yeah i was on the only hill in suffolk
[15:33] <jcoxon> with a big yagi
[15:33] <jcoxon> i think we need to set some guideliens for micro payload launches
[15:36] <jcoxon> cause they could easily go wrong :-p
[15:36] <jcoxon> foil + pylon = baddness
[15:37] <fsphil> an expensive bang
[15:37] <fsphil> so launch as far away from anything as possible
[15:37] <jcoxon> yes and insure a relatively good ascent rate (better then yesterday)
[15:37] <LazyLeopard> Yes, I tracked it quite a long way down, considering. Also, at one point it made a sudden frequency shift of about 1kHz up, which threw me for a few cycles.
[15:38] <jcoxon> its drying out currently
[15:38] <NigeyS|> i need to find some large open fields in barry then
[15:39] <jcoxon> i'm just trying to work out if ATC want to know or not
[15:39] <jcoxon> if you are going to call them you really need a NOTAM in place
[15:39] <jcoxon> or they are going to get confused
[15:39] <fsphil> I had a notam and they where confused :) they couldn't find it, had to go looking
[15:40] <NigeyS|> eek
[15:40] <LazyLeopard> My last successful line was M6LEP : PICO,1044,16:30:51,51.9726,+1.1951,485,0,10,6;2*5ED8
[15:40] <jcoxon> not bad at all LazyLeopard
[15:41] <LazyLeopard> I was hearing but not decoding for a few lines after that.
[15:41] <jcoxon> i got it down to 155m
[15:42] <jcoxon> but i was a lot closer
[15:45] <jcoxon> i think we'll try again in about 2 weeks time
[15:45] <jcoxon> with more balloons and a lighter payload
[15:45] <jcoxon> and an earlier launch - to get some altitude
[15:45] <jcoxon> seems that solar heating is important
[15:47] <eroomde_> jcoxon: do you havde some leave atm?
[15:47] Nick change: eroomde_ -> eroomde
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[15:49] <eroomde> hi Dan-K2VOL
[15:49] <eroomde> how're tricks?
[15:49] <Dan-K2VOL> Hi eroomde
[15:49] <jcoxon> eroomde_ today yes, back tomorrow
[15:49] <jcoxon> afternoon Dan-K2VOL
[15:50] <jcoxon> eroomde, am in suffolk
[15:50] <Dan-K2VOL> Hello jCoxon
[15:51] <Dan-K2VOL> Jcoxon how did you feel the picoatlas did compared to your plan
[15:52] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, we learnt a lot about these sort of balloons
[15:52] <jcoxon> didn't go to plan :-p
[15:52] <Dan-K2VOL> what was supposed to happen
[15:52] <jcoxon> but payload recovered and a bit of work and i think another attempt will do better
[15:52] <jcoxon> indeed
[15:52] <futurity> jcoxon: dependin on the launch date, i may be free to help out
[15:53] <jcoxon> launch is much easier
[15:53] <jcoxon> :-)
[15:53] <jcoxon> just writting up some of my thoughts
[15:53] <eroomde> yeah one person could do it really
[15:53] <jcoxon> little ideas such as we should use a straw instead of tubing to fill
[15:53] <jcoxon> to stop pulling out the internal valve
[15:53] <jcoxon> however
[15:53] <jcoxon> it might be worth pulling it out at the end as you can then seal the balloon a lot better
[15:55] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, it was a good test of the payload as well
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[15:56] <Dan-K2VOL> So were they supposed to superpressure?
[15:56] <jcoxon> that was the thinking
[15:56] <jcoxon> but we didn't have enough lift
[15:56] <jcoxon> so had to add more smaller balloons
[15:56] <Dan-K2VOL> ah curious
[15:56] <jcoxon> so its hard to distinguish whats what
[15:56] <Dan-K2VOL> How light was the payload?\
[15:57] <jcoxon> 99g
[15:57] <jcoxon> but i'm going to get that lower next time
[15:57] Action: SpeedEvil wonders how really cheap bin-bags stack up against proper balloons.
[15:58] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, interestingly at recovery the balloons had enough lift to fly again
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> Sealing's an issue of course.
[15:58] <jcoxon> the farmer put it in his barn and it was on the roof
[15:59] <junderwood> Legal situation looks pretty clear.
[15:59] <junderwood> Exceptions from application of provisions of the Order for certain classes of aircraft
[15:59] <junderwood> 164. The provisions of this Order other than articles 68, 74, 96(1), 97, 98, 144(1)(b) and (c),
[15:59] <junderwood> 155(1) and (2) shall not apply to or in relation to—
[16:00] <junderwood> (a) any small balloon;
[16:00] <junderwood> ‘Small balloon’ means a balloon not exceeding 2 metres in any linear dimension at any
[16:00] <junderwood> stage of its ight, including any basket or other equipment attached to the balloon;
[16:00] <jcoxon> yeah
[16:00] <jcoxon> saw that myself
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[16:00] <junderwood> just make sure the payload is close to the balloon
[16:00] <jcoxon> yeah
[16:00] <jcoxon> thats what we did
[16:00] <Dan-K2VOL> 99g not bad, you know our satmodem is only 45g
[16:01] <jcoxon> we just chatted with the ATC before hand as well
[16:01] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, its the battery that its the killer
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> heh you bet
[16:01] <jcoxon> i used 2000mAh lipo which is 40g
[16:01] <jcoxon> so i can save weight with better power saving
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> i'm surprised lipo survived freezing
[16:01] <jcoxon> it probably won't work again :-p
[16:01] <Dan-K2VOL> A 3000mah e2 AA lithium is only 14.5g
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: I have - accidentally - cycled some li-po down to -45 and back again 3 times
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: worked fine after
[16:02] <jcoxon> yeah but they add up
[16:02] <jcoxon> say 3 of those
[16:02] <Dan-K2VOL> don't add em up, use a boost converter
[16:02] <jcoxon> yeah thats an option
[16:02] <jcoxon> it was nice to be able to test and charge the payload
[16:02] <Dan-K2VOL> Sparkfun has some handy examples
[16:03] <Dan-K2VOL> That is nice
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[16:03] <junderwood> A 2m sphere has a volume of about 4m^3 which would give you a lift of about 4kg at ground level
[16:03] <fsphil> rechargable means solar is an option
[16:03] <Dan-K2VOL> have you guys ever achieved superpressure?
[16:03] <junderwood> or 1.65 kg at 10 km
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> 3000mAh@1.5V@14.5g = ~321W/Kg
[16:03] <jcoxon> junderwood, not a sphere
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> Wh
[16:03] <jcoxon> they are flattened a bit
[16:03] <junderwood> I'd like to see you inflate a 2m cube :)
[16:04] <jcoxon> junderwood, hehe
[16:04] <junderwood> Sorry. Was talking theoretically
[16:04] <jcoxon> junderwood, yeah i know :-)
[16:04] <Dan-K2VOL> jcoxon, you must you chat on a blackberry making your rounds, you're always here :-P
[16:04] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, day off today :-)
[16:05] <Dan-K2VOL> I shouldn't talk, I'm at work myself!
[16:05] <Dan-K2VOL> Nice
[16:05] <jcoxon> certainly can't chat from work
[16:05] <jcoxon> :-p
[16:06] <jcoxon> not here as often as i used to be (when i was a student)
[16:06] <Dan-K2VOL> hey, there's a public archive of the National Scientific Balloon Facility's papers here in the US, which covers their operations from the 1950s to the mid 1980s
[16:06] <Dan-K2VOL> However, it's all on physical paper
[16:06] <jcoxon> isn't stilldavid going to view them
[16:07] <Dan-K2VOL> ahh yes, that's what I was going to mention
[16:07] <Dan-K2VOL> To see if there was anything you guys would like to see
[16:07] <stilldavid> I'm headed there Thursday morning
[16:07] <Dan-K2VOL> in the table of contents
[16:07] <Dan-K2VOL> Hi stilldavid
[16:07] <Dan-K2VOL> That's great
[16:07] <stilldavid> hey Dan-K2VOL :)
[16:07] <Dan-K2VOL> I've made a google spreadsheet of the desirable items, and am still sifting through to try and prioritize to not overload you, my friend
[16:08] <stilldavid> I'm slated to be there from 8:30-12, and I can always go back!
[16:09] <Dan-K2VOL> :-D I don't want to wear your patience, a lot of it looks like it *might* be interesting, or it might be boring crap. What are you taking in for photograpy?
[16:09] <jcoxon> we need to crowd-source converting it to text
[16:09] <stilldavid> I have a nikon with a wide angle lens
[16:10] <Dan-K2VOL> Actually I'm willing to pay for processing via a service like scanR.com to start with, to save time
[16:10] <stilldavid> I'm really not sure what to expect, so play it by ear I suppose
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[16:10] <Dan-K2VOL> Stilldavid what's your google docs email address of choice
[16:10] <stilldavid> uh, stilldavid@gmail.com seems to work the best for docs
[16:11] <Dan-K2VOL> anyone else want to peek at the to-scan list too? Google docs addresses
[16:12] <stilldavid> Dan-K2VOL, are you worried about doing OCR?
[16:12] <jcoxon> jacoxon@googlemail.com
[16:13] <Dan-K2VOL> that would be the plan, so they can be searchable PDFs eventually
[16:13] <Dan-K2VOL> https://nldr.library.ucar.edu/archon/?p=collections/findingaid&id=18&q=&rootcontentid=2602#id2602
[16:15] <fsphil> how wide would a 350g latex balloon get before bursting?
[16:15] <fsphil> (thinking about the <2m exemption)
[16:15] <Dan-K2VOL> Hehe, you could just make a 2m belt with a tack in it
[16:16] <eroomde> fsphil: depends on how much helium you put in it
[16:16] <jcoxon> i don't think it would stay in that exemption
[16:16] <fsphil> probably right
[16:17] <eroomde> a 100g payload at 2m/s ascent gets you to 31km
[16:17] <eroomde> but they have a burst dia of 4.1m
[16:17] <Dan-K2VOL> Have you guys seen the mentions of the mini Ghost flights?
[16:18] <eroomde> unless the rules only apply to controlled airspace (< 60,000ft)
[16:18] <Dan-K2VOL> The small superpressure balloons that stayed up for nearly 2 years?
[16:18] <jcoxon> i've heard of them
[16:19] <Dan-K2VOL> I think that you guys are on the right track to do that sort of thing with the mylar balloons
[16:19] <Dan-K2VOL> if you can stop them from blowing up all the time
[16:19] <jcoxon> hehe
[16:20] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, yeah, well this is just an idea to play with - no massive plans for it
[16:20] <jcoxon> but its nice and easy to do
[16:20] <fsphil> 2 years??? nice!
[16:20] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph and I really want to do a global circumnavigation with a tiny superpressure balloon after we do x-atlantic
[16:22] <Dan-K2VOL> we were thinkin that you'd only need a telemetry transmission once a day
[16:22] <jcoxon> Dan-K2VOL, haha, step by step
[16:22] <stilldavid> Dan-K2VOL, that sounds awesome! is there weather that would take it all the way around?
[16:22] <Dan-K2VOL> So you could solar charge a battery all day for the transmission
[16:23] <Dan-K2VOL> Oh definitely, the dear old jet stream. It will wander quite aimlessly for large parts of the year, but it'll keep moving easterly in general
[16:23] <Dan-K2VOL> You need 2A, but only for a few 1 second long bursts
[16:23] <Dan-K2VOL> Once a day
[16:23] <jcoxon> sounds great
[16:24] <Colin_> Dan-K2VOL: you would need repeats to ensure reception
[16:24] <Colin_> and what band are you thinking of using?
[16:25] <Dan-K2VOL> that's why I say a few. It's a 2-way satellite modem, the sat will tell it if it got it or not, and it will retransmit if needed
[16:25] <stilldavid> I still feel like the sat modem is cheating :P
[16:25] <Dan-K2VOL> the Digi m10 is on the Orcomm network, which runs on 149MHz
[16:25] <Dan-K2VOL> A vertical 1/4 wave 30 gauge wire dipole works great
[16:26] <Colin_> what is the coverage like? Or can it work out when there is a sat in view?>
[16:26] <Dan-K2VOL> It's global
[16:27] <Dan-K2VOL> In most places within 1000 miles of major cities you'll have coverage of sats every 15-30 min at most
[16:28] <Dan-K2VOL> using orbcomm can be confusing, as they use the sats as dumb relays to their ground stations, not as a skynet
[16:29] <Colin_> right - home time - bbl
[16:29] <Dan-K2VOL> But if you're in the air for a long time, it doesn't matter, you don't even need to transmit to tell if the satellite overhead is in range of a ground station, it will broadcast a continuous beacon that it's got no ground link, and you'll just go back to sleep
[16:29] <Dan-K2VOL> Using only 60 ma for about 10 seconds
[16:29] <Dan-K2VOL> For the RX
[16:29] <Dan-K2VOL> Jealous of you euros, it's only lunch time here at work
[16:31] <Dan-K2VOL> The Digi m10 even has a feature called "Sleep until next predicted sat pass"
[16:31] <Dan-K2VOL> It's a very cool unit
[16:32] <Dan-K2VOL> Though you really have to scale back your telemetry wishes - we can't afford more than about 80 kB per trans-atlantic mission - and I mean we CAN"T afford more. I can't tell data to cost rates, as they are under NDA
[16:32] <jcoxon> eek
[16:32] <Dan-K2VOL> that's allocation for 72 hours
[16:34] <fsphil> might be safer to use the amateur aprs satellites
[16:34] <Dan-K2VOL> for these big ZP flights it works out to something like 10% of total actual mission cost
[16:34] <fsphil> (from a price point of view)
[16:34] <Dan-K2VOL> Haha right
[16:34] <fsphil> not reliable enough?
[16:34] <Dan-K2VOL> How about from a weight point of view
[16:34] <Dan-K2VOL> You'll either need something like 50 watts of power, or a yagi high gain antenna to track the sat
[16:35] <Dan-K2VOL> amateur satellites piss me off with their uselessness
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: what's the minimum economic packet size?
[16:35] <fsphil> mmm yea
[16:35] <fsphil> though I think they could be done with less power, but that's just speculation
[16:36] <Dan-K2VOL> actually speedevil it's 6 bytes
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> Dan-K2VOL: that's not bad at all
[16:36] <Elwell> some 2009 pricing here > http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1250
[16:36] <Dan-K2VOL> 6 bytes or smaller go through orbcomm like a greased pig
[16:37] <Dan-K2VOL> But - the next size packet is ~110 bytes, and it requires significantly more back-and-forth acking with the sat to send
[16:37] <jcoxon> bbl
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[16:38] <Dan-K2VOL> I think the 6 byte packets are like SMS text messages on cell phones, they piggyback on acks and protocol signalling messages
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> 6 bytes is plenty for lat/lon/height update though really
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> well - as update packets
[16:43] <Dan-K2VOL> yeah, 6 bytes ain't enough for the full info, but 2 of them are
[16:43] <Dan-K2VOL> Which is what we're using for part of White Star's SpeedBall-1 telemetry
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[16:57] <Dan-K2VOL> Our proposed double 6-byte telemetry downlink format: http://wiki.whitestarballoon.com/doku.php?id=telemetry:satellite:v1#atc_data_reports
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[17:02] <Dan-K2VOL> I never did hear - have you guys ever gotten a succesful superpressure float?
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[17:57] <NigeyS|> wb fsphil
[17:58] <fsphil> thanks NigeyS| !
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[18:02] <jcoxon> Evening all
[18:03] <NigeyS|> wb James
[18:03] <Colin_> Hi James
[18:04] <NigeyS|> james, whats the orange thing on the underside of this board ?
[18:05] <jcoxon> Just a capacitor
[18:05] <NigeyS|> funky colour!
[18:06] <jcoxon> Yeah, I tried to make it as flush as possible
[18:06] <NigeyS|> :D
[18:11] <DanielRichman> hey, griffonbot
[18:11] <griffonbot> hi
[18:11] <DanielRichman> how's it going?
[18:11] <griffonbot> @Daniel_Richman: griffonbot still working (!) #ukhas [http://twitter.com/Daniel_Richman/status/27427938848743424]
[18:11] <DanielRichman> yeaaaaaaaah
[18:13] <fsphil> hehe
[18:13] <fsphil> is it feeling better?
[18:13] <Colin_> Hmm... is #ukhas another irc chan?
[18:14] <jcoxon> No, a Twitter hashtag
[18:15] <Colin_> Oh, Ta
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[18:30] <Laurenceb_> eww twitter
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[18:30] Action: Laurenceb_ avoids such things
[18:31] Action: Colin_ likewise
[18:32] <Laurenceb_> twitter and facebook
[18:32] <Laurenceb_> youtube is also quite bad but i suppose it does have a use.. vimeo is somewhat more sane
[18:33] Action: Colin_ puts up with minimal facebook to keep in touch with his kids
[18:33] <jcoxon> Twitter is useful for ballooning
[18:33] <Laurenceb_> http://xkcd.com/202/
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[19:04] <natrium42> jcoxon: did you get payload back?
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[19:28] <NigeyS|> james soldering that ntx2 on was a pain! lol
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[19:52] <Brian_J_Hoskins> Evening all
[19:53] <NigeyS|> hi Brian_J_Hoskins
[19:53] <Brian_J_Hoskins> Do any of you guys have experience with measuring air pressure from sea level all the way up to 30Km? In particular, I'm hoping to get some info on sensor choice
[19:54] <Brian_J_Hoskins> I've found a couple of sensors I think will do the job, but just wondered if anyone else has successfully used a particular sensor for this application in the past.
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[19:57] <NigeyS|> hmm not sure brian, but stick around im sure someone has used what your looking for
[19:58] <Brian_J_Hoskins> Thanks NigeyS| . I'm going to keep looking around for info in the meantime as well. I'm sure someone here will have done this experiment though.
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[20:15] <Brian_J_Hoskins> Okay I'm off for the night, but I'll leave my client in here in case anyone comes forward with some advice about pressure sensor choice. Cheers!
[20:17] <NigeyS|> no probs nn Brian
[20:17] <Brian_J_Hoskins> g'night
[20:18] <Brian_J_Hoskins> If anyone does come back with info, here's what I've been looking at: http://uk.farnell.com/honeywell-s-c/asdx015a24r/sensor-pressure-15psi-absolute/dp/1796922
[20:18] <Brian_J_Hoskins> It's quite pricey but it looks like it includes all of the signal conditioning electronics inside, so all I need to do is feed the output into an ADC
[20:18] <Brian_J_Hoskins> And 0 -15PSI would, I think, cover sea level to 30KM
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[20:33] <omni96> Hey there...can anyone refer me to HAB autopilots?
[20:33] <stilldavid> autopilots?
[20:34] <omni96> so the HAB will be able to land in a predefined area
[20:34] <stilldavid> it doesn't exactly work like that :)
[20:34] <stilldavid> it's like a hot air balloon - at the mercy of local winds
[20:35] <stilldavid> there are tools to fairly accurately predict where it will travel and land, but it's not an exact science
[20:36] <omni96> yep...i live in israel so a 60km deviation is too much
[20:36] <stilldavid> depending on the winds it won't necessarily travel that distance
[20:36] <fsphil> you can have it burst early too by using a quick ascent
[20:36] <omni96> can i predict the winds at the 20+ km height?
[20:37] Action: fsphil lives in N.Ireland... the coast is 30km in most directions :)
[20:37] <fsphil> have you seen this omni96? http://habhub.org/predict/
[20:38] <SpikeUK> ?lightson ff0000
[20:38] <omni96> yepp but my worst case will be if it lands in gaza or jordan
[20:38] <Zuph> Heh
[20:38] <fsphil> yea that could be a problem :)
[20:38] <Zuph> Most HABers don't have to worry about a possible international incident when they launch :-p
[20:38] <omni96> no problem...just a challenge :)
[20:39] <omni96> i was thinking about using a paraglider
[20:39] <stilldavid> I'd be stoked if I could get a HAB to cross an international border! (from Colorado, USA)
[20:39] <omni96> i know its crazy...but umm it crazy!!
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[20:39] <fsphil> lol
[20:39] <Zuph> stilldavid: Right there with you :-p
[20:39] <fsphil> you may yet stilldavid
[20:39] <sbasuita> i think Laurenceb_ was working on a return to launch site glider?
[20:39] <jkominar> We have plans to launch from southern ontario in the spring and on a wind day, we'd easily end up in upstate New York :)
[20:39] <sbasuita> or was it SpeedEvil ?
[20:39] <stilldavid> fsphil, once I get this ZP envelope up :)
[20:40] <fsphil> I'm looking forward to that!
[20:40] <stilldavid> gotta let Zuph do all the hard work first though
[20:40] <Zuph> hah
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[20:40] <jkominar> We don't envision the chats with the US border guards going well with gas tanks and homebrew electronics in the trunk.
[20:40] <NigeyS|> lol noooooo
[20:41] <omni96> it sucks
[20:42] <omni96> and if it lands in the desert there's no way to get a cellular signal there
[20:42] <Zuph> Any APRS coverage in the desert out there?
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[20:43] <sbasuita> omni96: radio tracking is pretty common anyway
[20:43] Nick change: SpikeUK_ -> SpikeUK
[20:43] <omni96> radio tracking using amatur radio operators?
[20:43] <Colin_> omni96: before you do *anything* else I suggest you ask your Aviation Authority if they will let you do a launch.
[20:44] <omni96> we are already did that
[20:44] <omni96> gone through the regulations
[20:45] <omni96> it seems the <2kg is not considered an "unmanned free air balloon"
[20:45] <Colin_> I suggest that you actually ask them - rather than just reading the regulations
[20:46] <omni96> my friend is doing all the birocracy
[20:46] <omni96> he called too
[20:47] <sbasuita> omni96: well it would depend on israel's laws if you would need some radio license. In the UK we use license free bands which are power-restricted.
[20:47] <omni96> power restriction here is about <3watt for license-free equipment
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[20:48] <sbasuita> omni96: that's more than you'll ever need ;)
[20:48] <omni96> wait what?
[20:48] <sbasuita> we use 10mW
[20:49] <omni96> and that is enought for about 30-60km deviation?
[20:49] <sbasuita> that is enough for hundreds of km
[20:49] <sbasuita> since you always have line of sight to the balloon
[20:49] <sbasuita> you'll need to be closer when it comes down to the ground of course
[20:49] <sbasuita> so generally the idea is to chase it
[20:49] <omni96> i remember when i used to make gliders
[20:49] <omni96> its a nightmare....and we didn't have a gps
[20:50] <omni96> so why not simply case it and have a guide with a pair of googles?
[20:51] <sbasuita> a pair of googles?
[20:51] <Zuph> omni96: It gets very hard to see.
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[20:51] <Zuph> omni96: It looks like a bright star in the daytime. No way you can see it from a moving vehicle.
[20:52] <omni96> so i could have a second person
[20:52] <omni96> with the goggles
[20:53] <Zuph> Right. Even with binoculars, it would be impossible to keep in view from a moving vehicle.
[20:53] <Zuph> You're much better of doing some radio-direction finding.
[20:53] <omni96> so the second person will stay put
[20:53] <omni96> yeah that's a better idea
[20:54] <omni96> but i read on ukhas that ill need the 400$+ yeasu
[20:54] <Colin_> omni96: go read some of the stuff on the ukhas web site - it tells what has been done and what worked.
[20:54] <Zuph> When the balloon falls to the ground, all you'll have is a bearing unless the person has laser range finders in their eyes.
[20:54] <Colin_> omni96: you don't need to buy one - find a local Ham who already has one and get them interested
[20:55] <Zuph> Small HF transmitter could work too :-p
[20:55] <omni96> small hf?
[20:55] <NigeyS|> better still, dont tell anyone your launching, and im sure the military will track it down for you ;)
[20:55] <omni96> yeah it actually happened about a month ago
[20:56] <NigeyS|> eek, did they shoot it down ?
[20:56] <omni96> a weather balloon was over the reactor at dimona
[20:56] <omni96> they send an f16 imediatlly
[20:56] <omni96> sent*
[20:56] <NigeyS|> not the kinda area to lose a weather balloon
[20:56] <Dan-K2VOL> In israel?
[20:56] <omni96> yepp
[20:57] <Dan-K2VOL> Funny, we launched one within sight of a nuclear reactor in the USA and they waved at us
[20:57] <NigeyS|> lol
[20:57] <omni96> lol
[20:57] <stilldavid> seriously?
[20:57] <Dan-K2VOL> Yep, the Watts Bar Nuclear Power Plant in TN
[20:57] <Dan-K2VOL> When I was leading the UTARC group
[20:57] <omni96> this is crazy
[20:57] <omni96> i wish it was like that here
[20:58] <Zuph> haha
[20:58] <Zuph> The story has a bittersweet twist to it :-p
[20:58] <Dan-K2VOL> Truth be told, we had scouted the location the day before, and the guards surrounded us and took us into custody for questioning
[20:58] <fsphil> if a weather balloon is a risk to a nuclear power station, then there are bigger problems :)
[20:58] <omni96> it can take pictures
[20:58] <Dan-K2VOL> After about a half hour of that, they realized we were just the bumbling nerds we said we were
[20:58] <omni96> ariel photography is forbidden
[20:58] <NigeyS|> lol dan
[20:58] <stilldavid> the guys at EOSS had a payload land on the south runway at Denver International
[20:59] <Zuph> hah! I bet those were not happy air traffic controllers.
[20:59] <Dan-K2VOL> Similarly NSS landed one on O'Hare
[20:59] <stilldavid> didn't I read somewhere that one hit a car on a kansas freeway?
[20:59] <NigeyS|> wonder what would happen if 1 landed on the white house lawn
[20:59] <Dan-K2VOL> only one amateur one i've heard of has been hit by a car
[20:59] <Dan-K2VOL> Don't remember where, but the ppl on the GPSL yahoo group would
[21:00] <stilldavid> that's where I read it, I think :)
[21:00] <Dan-K2VOL> Cracked the windshield, and the recovery crew immediately paid cash for the windshield and GTFO
[21:00] <NigeyS|> :o
[21:04] <stilldavid> probably the best action given the circumstances
[21:05] <Zuph> We already can't get insurance for our hobby :-p
[21:06] <omni96> stick a honda logo on the front of the payload and take it to your favorite insurace agency
[21:07] <Dan-K2VOL> By the way, Brian_J_Hoskins asked earlier about a pressure sensor to 100kft, someone just mentioned one they've used on the GPSL yahoo group list this week, if any of you know him, let him know he can check out the message archives
[21:07] <Elwell> or some borrowed licence plates from someone you don't like
[21:07] <Dan-K2VOL> Well, I'm not worried about the cost of the payload
[21:07] <omni96> and if they ask to many questions say "thats how i roll"
[21:07] <Zuph> It's the cost of the thing the payload lands on :-p
[21:07] <Dan-K2VOL> I'm worried about the cost of the person's medical bill that slipped on the ice when they got beaned in the head by a flight computer
[21:08] <stilldavid> Dan-K2VOL, Zuph what's this? http://www.flickr.com/photos/0seeker0/5365231009/in/pool-1578126@N22/
[21:08] <Zuph> Or the cost of the thing that the ball of flaming nichrome and alcohol lands on.
[21:08] <omni96> maybe a softer payload case will do the trick
[21:08] <Zuph> stilldavid: Top temperature sensor
[21:08] <stilldavid> ah, and the foil bit?
[21:08] <Zuph> We're measuring the temperature of the helium at the top of our envelope
[21:08] <Zuph> stilldavid: Solar Sheild
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[21:08] <Dan-K2VOL> A poorly designed infrared solar shield
[21:08] <stilldavid> okay, cool.
[21:08] <Zuph> We want the temperature of the helium, not the temperature of the sun beating down on our black thermistor.
[21:08] <Dan-K2VOL> It should have much better ventillation paths
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[21:09] <stilldavid> makes sense.
[21:09] Nick change: laurence_ -> Laurenceb_
[21:09] <Dan-K2VOL> Sort of like the James Webb Space Telescope
[21:09] <Laurenceb_> someone pinged me?
[21:09] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: No worries, there will be so many other competing paths of interference, the solar shield quality is just a drop in the bucket :-p
[21:10] <Laurenceb_> lost scrollback my keyboard keeps going inactive :(
[21:10] <omni96> do you know what a krembo is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krembo
[21:10] <omni96> i'm planning of putting one of these in the payload
[21:11] <Dan-K2VOL> Interference?
[21:11] <omni96> its gonna probably explose or something but it more practical then atmosphere cooled beer
[21:12] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Rebooting Xbee, stagnation in the corner, bouncing around, horrific envelope failure, you know.
[21:12] <Dan-K2VOL> Yes, and I want to remove as many impediments to success as possible
[21:12] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: Well, you know what *you* could do...
[21:12] <Zuph> :-p
[21:13] <Dan-K2VOL> buy it a ticket on Virgin?
[21:13] <Dan-K2VOL> Ohh I get it, yes, the royal YOU
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[21:14] <Zuph> No, Dan, the singular you. It's *your* job to get every little thing buttoned up, after all :-p
[21:14] Action: stilldavid points fingers
[21:14] <stilldavid> but hey, how is the temp sensor going to be attached to the envelope?
[21:14] <Dan-K2VOL> hehe, someday when I'm rich, I'll pay you all to do this for day jobs
[21:14] <Zuph> We have Mark build a threaded pipe into the top of our balloons.
[21:14] <Zuph> *had
[21:15] <stilldavid> I remember that. any pics of that?
[21:15] <Zuph> stilldavid: None online yet. Give me a sec.
[21:15] Action: stilldavid is ballooning and should be working
[21:15] <Dan-K2VOL> Yes, should be ah, on my phone right now
[21:15] <stilldavid> Zuph, no rush
[21:15] <Zuph> me too.
[21:16] <natrium42> then who was phone?
[21:16] <stilldavid> banana phone.
[21:16] <Dan-K2VOL> I think i'm gonna have to just make a whitestar flickr account so I can upload crap that automatically goes into the photo pool. Flickr is such a pain in the ass, you'd think it would integrate better w twitter
[21:16] <stilldavid> I'd hope not! <3 flickr
[21:16] <stilldavid> also: see gdzlla
[21:17] <Dan-K2VOL> I also really hate yahoo accounts, with their hostage webmail system
[21:17] <Dan-K2VOL> Sad that flickr is on them now
[21:19] <Zuph> stilldavid: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradluyster/5367643063/
[21:19] <stilldavid> and it's airtight? or will you put a cap on it/
[21:20] <stilldavid> I see... alright, cool.
[21:20] <Dan-K2VOL> you see the cap in the photo you pointed out originally
[21:20] <stilldavid> not sure I'm going to mess with that (I wouldn't even know what to do with the data)
[21:20] <Dan-K2VOL> The cap holds the sensor
[21:20] <stilldavid> got it.
[21:20] <Dan-K2VOL> No, I wouldn't bother. You won't need to once we get the data
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[21:20] <Dan-K2VOL> it will tell us all how much solar radiation is trapped by mark's balloon material
[21:21] <stilldavid> ah, so you're just going to log it on a flight or two and use the data?
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[21:21] <stilldavid> as in, it's not going to be a part of the control loop
[21:22] <Dan-K2VOL> Well, all 5 balloons have the sensor port, so likely will sensor it on all 5 for statistical analysis, but flight 1 should give really critical helium heating data to use for predicting how much ballast to drop at sunset
[21:22] <Dan-K2VOL> It could in future flights trigger the sunset ballast
[21:22] <stilldavid> I see.
[21:22] <Dan-K2VOL> Or directly determine the amount of sunset ballast based on day/night temp diff
[21:23] <Dan-K2VOL> Yours doesn't have the port
[21:23] <Zuph> Also, Mark claims the helium cools below ambient on the way up (due to rapid expansion). It would be interesting to see the affect/magnitude of that.
[21:23] <stilldavid> no, so I'll probably either hard code the sunset time or use an ambient light sensor in addition to detecting descent
[21:23] <Dan-K2VOL> BTW we're looking at having SpacePort Indiana buy balloons from NSC Aero and us pay to ride on them, if these don't hold gas
[21:24] <stilldavid> if you do, let me know. I'll still probably launch Mark's, but would be interested in another
[21:24] <Dan-K2VOL> Ah, really for the most part I woudn't bother making it that complicated, as long as you can ballast at a reasonable rate, you can just react to the fall
[21:24] <Zuph> I intend to give Brian a call as soon as this professor leaves the lab :-p
[21:24] <Dan-K2VOL> for starters
[21:24] <Dan-K2VOL> Cool -)
[21:26] <Zuph> Dan-K2VOL: See where we were featured on Make Blog?
[21:28] <stilldavid> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/01/measuring_a_weather_balloons_volume.html
[21:29] <stilldavid> congrats :)
[21:31] <Zuph> stilldavid: Thanks. The method still has a ways to go before it is as accurate as we'd like, but we think it has promise.
[21:31] <Zuph> Especially for something put together from spare parts.
[21:31] <stilldavid> never would have thought to use a differential pressure sensor
[21:32] <Zuph> I think we have to credit Dan-K2VOL with the inspiration.
[21:40] <Dan-K2VOL> Zuph: I did, just got out some replies that came in on our blog from that
[21:40] <Dan-K2VOL> Very cool
[21:40] <Zuph> Absolutely. Any idea how that happened?
[21:40] <Dan-K2VOL> eh?
[21:41] <Dan-K2VOL> Oh make? John Baichtal follows us on twitter
[21:41] <Dan-K2VOL> Likely that
[21:42] <Dan-K2VOL> BTW stilldavid and others, this method, if it works out, will be able to tell you the LIVE volume total AS YOU INFLATE with helium on the launchpad
[21:42] <Dan-K2VOL> Very cheaply and easily
[21:43] <stilldavid> I'm a big fan of the "empty the tank and pray" method, but that's good to hear!
[21:43] <Dan-K2VOL> A holy grail of inflation techniques
[21:43] <Dan-K2VOL> Heh, I've ended up facedown in the mud from that technique david
[21:43] <Dan-K2VOL> After chasing a bouncing payload across a plowed farmfield for 100 yards
[21:43] <stilldavid> I uh, pray silently to myself, but cool :)
[21:44] <Dan-K2VOL> I caught it, but only with the last flying leap
[21:44] <stilldavid> hah, did your payload go all NASA on you?
[21:44] <Dan-K2VOL> Yep
[21:44] <stilldavid> #toosoon
[21:44] <Dan-K2VOL> Haha
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[21:46] <Dan-K2VOL> that was the fault of trusting very precise inflation math, and grabbing the wrong size balloon
[21:47] <Dan-K2VOL> I put enough helium in to lift a 300g balloon + payload, but the extra weight of the 500g balloon took all the free lift away
[21:47] <Randomskk> the easiest way definitely seems to be to measure lift
[21:47] <Dan-K2VOL> Easiest, and most error prone
[21:47] <Randomskk> the measurement is less sensitive to all sorts of error, and isn't integrated which is always bad from an error point of view
[21:47] <Randomskk> I'd say it's much much less error prone than integrating air speed from a pitot tube
[21:48] <Randomskk> the main source of error there is going to be wind blowing on the balloon, which is readily observed so you wait for a lull or measure indoors
[21:48] <Dan-K2VOL> we'll find that out later, but the problem with lift measurement is wind, which creates unknown and highly variable lift and drag vectors
[21:48] <Randomskk> very sensitive scales are readily and cheaply available
[21:48] <Randomskk> I think ed mentions most of my concerns with this method, which fundementally comes down to fluid flow being complicated
[21:49] <Dan-K2VOL> I've used that method on about 30 flights, and I'm sick of it's problems
[21:49] <Dan-K2VOL> The lift measurement
[21:49] <Dan-K2VOL> however it might be made easier by computer force vector analysis on the anchor point
[21:49] <Randomskk> it's certainly not ideal. we're looking at getting an industrial mass flow meter
[21:49] <Dan-K2VOL> There's a project for someone
[21:50] Action: fsphil is starting to think that keeping everything on his desk is not a good storage system
[21:50] <Randomskk> the other issue you may experience is that the helium is changing temperature rapdily as it comes out of the compressed cylinder
[21:50] <Randomskk> and with that, volume
[21:50] <Dan-K2VOL> yes, the pitot tubes would have temp sensors on them
[21:50] <Randomskk> that's reasonable, if you use that to look up a rho
[21:51] <Dan-K2VOL> or we could all just buy tiny laser scanners to poke up in the balloons during inflation :-P
[21:52] <stilldavid> fsphil, always works for me
[21:52] <stilldavid> http://www.flickr.com/photos/stilldavid/1375390437/
[21:52] <stilldavid> from a few years ago :P
[21:52] <fsphil> it's never failed me before stilldavid -- but I've gone and lost my last atmega :)
[21:52] <fsphil> aaah that looks familiar :D
[21:52] <Randomskk> that looks positively tidy
[21:53] <Randomskk> though right now my desk is super tidy
[21:53] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/anns_l11_1.JPG
[21:53] <stilldavid> I'll have to take one of my desk at work right now... it's downright scary
[21:53] <stilldavid> Randomskk, WHO ARE YOU!? unpossibly clean :P
[21:53] <Randomskk> this was the day I moved back to uni
[21:53] <stilldavid> and is that twitter I see?
[21:53] <Randomskk> so just unpacked
[21:54] <Randomskk> and yes :p @adamgreig
[21:54] <Randomskk> (I do now have a swivel chair that I stole from jonsowman)
[21:54] <Randomskk> (muhaha)
[21:55] <NigeyS|> fsphil, it's alive! www.nigey.co.uk/images/hab/IMAG0076.jpg
[21:56] <Laurenceb_> Randomskk: sweet PC
[21:56] <fsphil> like the terminator! only with one eye...
[21:56] <NigeyS|> lol
[21:56] <Randomskk> Laurenceb_: dual 24" 1920x1200 is the only way to go
[21:57] <Laurenceb_> niiiceee
[21:57] <Laurenceb_> ubuntu?
[21:57] <Randomskk> yea
[21:57] <Randomskk> it's like, i5 750 (quad core 2.67ghz), 8gb ddr3 ram, 2tb disk space, ati hd5770 or something
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> nice
[21:58] <fsphil> here's me at the moment: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fsphil/5367747739/
[21:59] <jonsowman> i don't have a picture of my desk at the mo
[21:59] <jonsowman> :(
[21:59] <Randomskk> you should take one
[21:59] <Randomskk> and post it to flickr
[21:59] <Randomskk> then give us all the link
[21:59] <fsphil> yea, it's all the rage
[21:59] <Randomskk> fsphil: definitely a bit messier though you win on screen count :P
[21:59] <jonsowman> haha
[21:59] Action: Laurenceb_ has a 15'' laptop :(
[22:00] <Randomskk> I have a few laptops lying around that I don't use much. considering getting a macbook air so the cool kids will like me again, actually
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[22:01] <fsphil> aarg, fedora/linux/xorg/ati/amd/gnu .. whoever is to blame for my desktop crashing
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> you missed the pope.
[22:02] <fsphil> if anyone sees an atmega in that picture, let me know
[22:03] <stilldavid> http://www.flickr.com/photos/stilldavid/5367759319/
[22:03] <stilldavid> as of 3 minutes ago
[22:03] <fsphil> no clutter around the keyboard, that's actually not bad
[22:03] <stilldavid> I need typing space :)
[22:04] <stilldavid> and there's a meeting around the asteroids machine right now... bbl
[22:04] <Dan-K2VOL> BTW, I gotta run, workday over, but has anyone thought about using sodar to measure the volume of a balloon?
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[22:04] <fsphil> now that is not something I'd ever hear at my office...
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[22:04] <Randomskk> sodar?
[22:04] <Dan-K2VOL> sort of like sonar
[22:04] <Dan-K2VOL> But for open air
[22:04] <Dan-K2VOL> You beep and record the echo back
[22:05] <Randomskk> right
[22:05] <Dan-K2VOL> measure the resonance of the helium bubble or something
[22:06] <Randomskk> that might get you distance but making it build up a 3d model seems tricker than it's worth
[22:06] <jonsowman> http://hexoc.com/u/desk.jpg
[22:06] <jonsowman> sorry for awful quality
[22:06] <Randomskk> pretty sure that macbook wasn't on your desk five minutes ago :P
[22:06] <fsphil> dinky laptop!
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[22:07] <jonsowman> Randomskk: hehe, looking at ram specs
[22:07] <Randomskk> :P
[22:07] <Randomskk> see everyone, 2x24" is clearly the way to go
[22:07] <NigeyS|> jonsowman, pico..hasntgotanameyet is half built :D
[22:07] <jonsowman> :)
[22:08] <NigeyS|> under 70grams to
[22:08] <fsphil> picochu
[22:08] Action: fsphil gets his coat
[22:08] <NigeyS|> haha nice 1 phil
[22:08] <jonsowman> lol
[22:08] <Randomskk> haha
[22:08] <Randomskk> now you have to die
[22:08] <jonsowman> very good
[22:09] <fsphil> indeed
[22:09] <NigeyS|> phil we could lose the led, save 1/3rd of a gram ;)
[22:09] <fsphil> got have a blinky light
[22:10] <Randomskk> use smd ones
[22:10] <Randomskk> smaller, lighter
[22:10] <NigeyS|> oh ok! :D
[22:10] <Randomskk> :P
[22:10] <jonsowman> Randomskk: I put autojump on this machine
[22:10] <jonsowman> bit addicted to it
[22:10] <NigeyS|> impossible to solder to!
[22:10] <Randomskk> pfft
[22:10] <NigeyS|> <-- noob!
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[22:31] <fsphil> ooh, got an email from the local-ish amateur club - they're doing the intermediate course
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[22:41] <Colin_> fsphil: which club?
[22:43] <fsphil> mid-ulster amateur radio club
[22:43] <fsphil> local-ish in the sense that they're about 20 miles away
[22:44] <LazyLeopard> Good luck! When?
[22:45] <fsphil> thanks! within a few weeks, not sure how long it lasts though
[22:45] <Colin_> it's not much more than the foundation
[22:46] <Colin_> I think CDARC does it in two Saturdays
[22:46] <Colin_> incl practical
[22:46] <LazyLeopard> Bromley does it in three days rather than two for Foundation.
[22:46] <fsphil> our foundation was done in two nights
[22:46] <fsphil> this one is longer, but I've arranged to skip some of the practicals
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[22:47] <fsphil> too much travelling if I went every night
[22:47] <Colin_> you should be able to do the kit part of the practical on your own and just get it adjuciated
[22:47] <fsphil> I think that's their plan - will know more soon
[22:47] <LazyLeopard> So long as the paperwork gets signed off...
[22:50] <fsphil> don't you get to choose the project?
[22:50] <griffonbot> Received email: Solar Balloonman <billings.stephen75@gmail.com> "Re: PicoAtlas - Launch: Monday 17/1/2011 ~ 12:00UTC"
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[22:54] <NigeyS|> hey James
[22:54] <jcoxon> evening
[22:54] <jcoxon> that wasn't a fun journey
[22:54] <NigeyS|> oh?
[22:56] <Colin_> jcoxon: M25 broken again?
[22:56] <jcoxon> A23 closed
[22:56] <jcoxon> so had to go on a big diversion
[22:57] <NigeyS|> eugh nasty
[22:57] <Colin_> you end up on the 272?
[22:58] <jcoxon> then A24
[22:58] <Colin_> yeah, it's not too bad if you know it
[22:58] <Colin_> bit of a pig otherwise in the dark
[22:58] <jcoxon> hehe
[22:59] <jcoxon> NigeyS|, you going to stick your payload in my new ukhas micro payload section?
[22:59] <NigeyS|> yups, sure will, atm its got a nice name of pico..nonameyet .. lol
[22:59] <NigeyS|> http://www.nigey.co.uk/images/hab/IMAG0076.jpg .. it is however alive
[22:59] <Colin_> jcoxon: where is the pico flight report posted?
[23:00] <jcoxon> NigeyS|, ooo if you bend the regulator up straight then the radiometrix will sit nicely down over the resistors
[23:00] <jcoxon> NigeyS|, gosh - what a nice pcb
[23:01] <NigeyS|> will try it, and yush, the atlas pcb is perfect, very good job sir :D
[23:01] <jcoxon> Colin_, i've just written a few points: http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:picoatlas:picoatlasi
[23:01] <jcoxon> will write a proper report later
[23:03] Action: Colin_ nods
[23:05] <Colin_> good job it didn't float for longer - you would have had to ask the Harwich harbour pilot for the loan of his boat
[23:06] <Colin_> right - work in the morning so sleep now - G'night all
[23:12] <fsphil> I give up, no sign of this chip anywhere.
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[23:27] <jcoxon> Randomskk, jonsowman do you have images from the launch yesterday?
[23:27] <Randomskk> a few
[23:27] <jonsowman> I don't
[23:27] <Randomskk> http://twitter.com/adamgreig
[23:27] <jonsowman> my phone camera is /so/ bad that it's not worth it :p
[23:28] <Randomskk> there are like one or two more elsewhere but they're not great
[23:28] <jcoxon> hehe
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[23:38] <jcoxon> what do people think about a payload that shutsdown over night
[23:38] <jcoxon> guess you just don't know it'll wake up
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[23:53] <fsphil> hmmm not a good idea
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[00:00] --- Wed Jan 19 2011