highaltitude.log.20110111

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[00:22] <MaDCaTz> where did you get your NTX2 from?
[00:27] <Darkside> morning juxta
[00:27] <juxta> heya Darkside
[00:33] <juxta> Darkside, one of the guys who's helped out in the past and come along to launches emailed me last night to tell me he was going to LCA and doing the arduino miniconf
[00:33] <Darkside> hahaa
[00:33] <Darkside> cool
[00:33] <juxta> he said the board they were making looked like it could be good for ballooning ;p
[00:33] <Darkside> no shit :P
[00:33] <Darkside> got an pictures of him at a launch?
[00:33] <Darkside> we'll use it in the talk :P
[00:35] <Darkside> shit theres 3 R10s on ebay atm
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[00:35] <Darkside> BUYBUYBUY
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[00:36] <juxta> yeah I have a little alert setup so that I get an email when one is listed
[00:36] <juxta> there's been a lot in the last few weeks
[00:36] <Darkside> yeah i think i'll buy one of those
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[01:46] <Darkside> juxta: ping
[01:47] <juxta> nope, I'm not here :)
[01:47] <Darkside> hah
[01:49] <juxta> I like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzTxR9YoIQ8&feature=related
[01:56] <Darkside> heh
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[04:41] <kylehotchkiss> hey there!
[04:41] <kylehotchkiss> I was curious if anybody has any tips /stories about launching balloons from Virginia
[04:42] <kylehotchkiss> trajectory forecasts show it reallllly windy.
[04:46] <bot779work> if you want a shorter horizontal run, overfill your balloon. give yourself a lot of free lift. It'll rise faster and burst at a lower altitude.
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[04:57] <natrium42> hi kylehotchkiss
[04:57] <natrium42> winds are slower in the summer :)
[04:57] <kylehotchkiss> Sweet!
[04:57] <kylehotchkiss> I'm kinda stuck with what I think is the gulf stream (I'm still in the brainstorming/planning part of this)
[04:59] <natrium42> you mean jet stream, right?
[04:59] <natrium42> better not land in the gulf stream :)
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[05:09] <kylehotchkiss> bahahaha! I'm a noob.
[05:10] <kylehotchkiss> Best time of day for low winds?
[05:14] <natrium42> hmm, good question
[05:14] <natrium42> not sure which is best on average
[05:14] <natrium42> you can always run a prediction and check
[05:14] <natrium42> few days before launch
[05:15] <natrium42> and select the best time
[05:18] <MaDCaTz> discovery science channel
[05:18] <MaDCaTz> about balloons
[05:18] <MaDCaTz> well about solar cells, but they are launchign a baloon lol
[05:48] <juxta_> heya natrium42
[05:52] <natrium42> hi juxta_
[05:52] <natrium42> how are you?
[05:53] <juxta_> I'm well thanks - how about you?
[05:53] <natrium42> likewise
[05:53] <natrium42> playing with kinect
[05:53] <juxta_> playing = hacking?
[05:53] <natrium42> though i havent found a use for balloons yet
[05:53] <natrium42> i intend to use it for my masters thesis
[05:53] <natrium42> just need to find what hasn't been done yet :)
[05:54] <juxta_> ahh, hehe
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[05:54] <juxta_> I noticed you (or someone else?) had made a few mods to the tracker
[05:54] <natrium42> the company that licensed the tech to msft released an official driver
[05:54] <juxta_> it seems faster now, but maybe it's just me
[05:54] <natrium42> oh rly?
[05:54] <natrium42> for some reason there is some bug
[05:54] <juxta_> yeah - especially loading a large path
[05:55] <natrium42> that ocurred with your last launch
[05:55] <juxta_> that seemed much quicker
[05:55] <natrium42> where it stops updating prediction
[05:55] <juxta_> ahh
[05:55] <juxta_> hmm
[05:55] <natrium42> and i have to remove the "buggy" position...
[05:55] <natrium42> not really sure why it happens :S
[05:55] <juxta_> we have the prediction offline these days so I didn't notice it
[05:55] <natrium42> should have saved the data before deleting the position
[05:55] <natrium42> oh welll
[05:56] <natrium42> did you publish any results from horus 13 yet?
[05:56] <juxta_> I was thinking maybe the tracker should calculate the speed based on the coordinates and timestamps it gets, that way if there's a buggy point it can be caught based on it being impossible
[05:56] <juxta_> not yet - they're being kept under wraps for a little while :)
[05:57] <juxta_> I'll publish them once I get the go ahead
[05:57] <natrium42> bah, must be really good
[05:57] <natrium42> looking forward
[05:57] <juxta_> :)
[05:57] <juxta_> did you see the rig?
[05:57] <natrium42> nope
[05:57] <juxta_> 2 secs then, let me find the url
[06:00] <natrium42> no rush
[06:05] <kylehotchkiss> Is there a guide to how to attach a parachute and have it work?
[06:08] <MaDCaTz> have it predeployed
[06:08] <MaDCaTz> thats all i know :P
[06:09] <natrium42> most people go with the cute in line with the payload
[06:09] <natrium42> so payload -- chute -- balloon
[06:10] <MaDCaTz> i have a problem that where i want to launch my baloon, it would burst over land, but stray to the sea
[06:10] <MaDCaTz> i need to make a system to deply at 1km
[06:10] <natrium42> juxta_: got any tips for preventing chute tangling?
[06:10] <juxta_> that sounds a bit close MaDCaTz
[06:10] <MaDCaTz> it will be a big parachute
[06:15] <kylehotchkiss> haha I've just seen screwed up parachutes before and that looks like a bad afternoon
[06:25] <juxta_> natrium42, MaDCaTz - yeah, lots of distance between the chute and everything else :)
[06:25] <juxta_> http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/DSC_0281.jpg
[06:32] <MaDCaTz> hmm
[06:32] <MaDCaTz> too close?
[06:32] <MaDCaTz> it should slow to 10-15kmh in 1km shoudnt it?
[06:33] <MaDCaTz> i cant have the balloon drift too far
[06:33] <kylehotchkiss> drive the oposite direction for a while and laucnh from there?
[06:34] <juxta_> MaDCaTz, have you been running predictions for a while? you'll find that winds vary from day to day
[06:34] <MaDCaTz> im launching from the west coast
[06:35] <MaDCaTz> the last week or so its always gone east, to land in the north sea
[06:35] <MaDCaTz> i need high acent rate, and quick decent
[06:39] <kylehotchkiss> hmm overfill the ballon and forget the chute? lol jkjk
[06:40] <kylehotchkiss> BTW: I appreciate all the hard work that you guys have put into this IRC channel and the wiki.
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[08:42] <Laurenceb_> sup
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[08:56] <perseus> hi, anyone here done tracking with a AR8200 receiver with a Radiometrix NTX2 transmitter?
[08:57] <perseus> would like to know if its possible, but its difficult to test.
[08:59] <Randomskk> I haven't used it, but looking at the specs it "should" work but is likely to not be as good as a normal radio over longer ranges
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[09:34] <MaDCaTz> can you use handhelds then
[09:35] <Darkside> perseus: does the AR8200 do USB?
[09:35] <Darkside> i mean, upper side band on 434MHz
[09:37] <MaDCaTz> im never going to afford a proper reciever :(
[09:37] <MaDCaTz> they all seem well above £300
[09:38] <Randomskk> new, yes
[09:38] <Darkside> heh, i'm bidding on a used Icom R10
[09:38] <Randomskk> well worth watching ebay for an FT-790R
[09:40] <perseus> darkside: yes, USB is supported
[09:40] <Darkside> perseus: then if you use the NTX2 the way we all do, it would be fine
[09:41] <perseus> i've order my ntx2 today, and will test
[09:41] <MaDCaTz> where do you get it from
[09:41] <Darkside> perseus: oooooooh ncie radio
[09:41] <Darkside> nice
[09:42] <perseus> i like my ar8200 mkIII very much :)
[09:42] <Darkside> anyway, take a look to see how all of us drive the NTX2 for narrow bandwidth FSK
[09:42] <Darkside> you should get better range that way too
[09:42] <perseus> but lets hope its good at tracking
[09:43] <perseus> where can i find that info?
[09:43] <Darkside> uhmm
[09:43] <Darkside> good point
[09:43] <Darkside> not sure actually, i just know the way juxta does it
[09:44] <perseus> can you explain briefly?
[09:44] <perseus> or not possible
[09:44] <Darkside> uhmmm
[09:44] <Darkside> hold on
[09:45] <Randomskk> I have a diagram
[09:45] <Randomskk> do you have any experience in radio?
[09:45] <Darkside> 47k and 39k..... (taking to myself)
[09:45] <Darkside> Randomskk: do you use 47k and 39k resistors?
[09:45] <Darkside> from a 3.3v logic level
[09:45] <Randomskk> the resistor values are really pretty irrelevant to how it's done
[09:45] <Randomskk> well, unless you want to know the technical implementation details
[09:45] <Darkside> i know juxta also messed with the deviation until it was working nicely
[09:45] <Darkside> i.e. changed the deviation until the shift was correct
[09:46] <Randomskk> yea, but again that is all technical implementation details
[09:46] <Randomskk> aww, I can't find my diagram
[09:47] <Randomskk> well, anyway
[09:47] <Randomskk> perseus: do you have any experience in radio?
[09:47] <perseus> im an engineer, and yes a little experience
[09:47] <Randomskk> like, do you know what FSK is? USB?
[09:47] <Randomskk> FM? and roughly what they look like on a frequency spectrum?
[09:47] <perseus> yes :)
[09:47] <Randomskk> excellent
[09:48] <Randomskk> basically we use a FSK FM transmitter to transmit two tones at FM, one mark and one space
[09:48] <Randomskk> however we don't transmit actual FM tones
[09:48] <Randomskk> we give the FSK FM transmitter two constant voltages
[09:48] <Randomskk> so the output is two discrete frequencies
[09:48] <Randomskk> on a spectrum, it looks like two spikes
[09:49] <perseus> two tones for 0 and 1
[09:49] <Randomskk> two voltages into the frequency modulator
[09:49] <Randomskk> normally for FM transmission you'd apply two tones, so the frequency would change cyclically
[09:49] <Randomskk> e.g., for audio FM transmission you put a sinusoid into the modulator, so the frequency swings at the output
[09:50] <Randomskk> instead, we put DC into the modulator, so the output frequency is constant (for each voltage) and we use two discrete voltages, one for 0 and one for 1
[09:50] <Randomskk> if you listened to this on an FM receiver you'd just get clicks when we changed voltage, but since the output isn't changing it would otherwise be like listening to a DC signal on a loudspeaker
[09:50] <Randomskk> so you don't get anything
[09:51] <Randomskk> instead, we use an SSB receiver, which like AM modulates a carrier wave (though the actual carrier doesn't exist, as with normal SSB operation)
[09:51] <Randomskk> the SSB receiver gets those spikes in the spectrum and outputs tones
[09:52] <Randomskk> such that the output from the radio on our end is two audio tones, one for 0 and one for 1
[09:52] <perseus> makes sense, a real hack of FM for digital use
[09:52] <perseus> ok, which dc values do you use to drive the ntx2?
[09:52] <Randomskk> yes, essentially
[09:52] <Randomskk> we use typically 2.0V and 2.2V
[09:53] <MaDCaTz> why is it possible to transmit long range like this? but we couldnt transmit FM radio to listen to on a normal radio
[09:53] <Randomskk> MaDCaTz: essentially it is just a lot easier
[09:53] <Randomskk> we could transmit FM, but it is much harder to generate a 1kHz tone on a simple microcontroller than it is to generate two DC levels
[09:53] <Randomskk> and any imperfections in your generated tone could lead to more harmonics and such
[09:54] <Randomskk> perseus: commonly people use a potential divider from a logic level output on a microcontroller to generate the voltages
[09:54] <perseus> ok
[09:54] <Randomskk> then we transmit RTTY at 50 or 350 baud. the 0.2V shift gives about 350Hz spacing between the two frequencies.
[09:55] <Randomskk> MaDCaTz: someone is actually working on transmitting FM so it will be interesting to see how well that works
[09:55] <perseus> ok, if fiddled with the dl-fldigi program
[09:56] <perseus> the spacing of 350Hz you set in the RTTY settings?
[09:56] <Randomskk> yes, though if you were flying a balloon we make up a payload file so fldigi can autoset to your parameters when in HAB mode
[09:57] <perseus> ok, thats great
[09:57] <perseus> i'm planning to use a PIC for the micro
[09:58] <Randomskk> eh, they work, they have been used before without problems, if you are familiar with them they're not a bad choice
[09:58] <Randomskk> my personal preference is for things like avrs and arms but that's just me
[09:59] <perseus> do you use the logical levels of RS232 just with a voltage divider
[10:00] <Randomskk> essentially. you want your 0 to be 2V and your 1 to be 2.2V, sort out components as appropriate
[10:00] <Randomskk> it doesn't really matter which way around you have it
[10:00] <Randomskk> since fldigi can reverse with a button, and radios can tune LSB or USB and do the same
[10:01] <Randomskk> which way is 'correct' is just whatever you choose for your convention
[10:01] <perseus> ok, thanks Randomskk, you helped out a lot.
[10:01] <perseus> i'll come back when i have more to tell/ask
[10:02] <Randomskk> okay :)
[10:04] <perseus> 09:52 < Randomskk> such that the output from the radio on our end is two audio
[10:04] <perseus> tones, one for 0 and one for 1
[10:05] <perseus> 09:52 < perseus> makes sense, a real hack of FM for digital use
[10:05] <perseus> 09:52 < perseus> ok, which dc values do you use to drive the ntx2?
[10:05] <perseus> 09:52 < Randomskk> yes, essentially
[10:05] <perseus> 09:52 < Randomskk> we use typically 2.0V and 2.2V
[10:06] <fsphil> one problem with FM is selectivity -- any nearby strong signal will blind the receiver
[10:06] <perseus> sorry if i accidentally pasted stuff. just tried to copy in irrssi
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[11:28] Action: Laurenceb is having no luck compiling linux for the parrot photo frame
[11:29] <Laurenceb> arm-v4t-linux-uclibcgnueabi
[11:29] <Laurenceb> [ERROR] Could not retrieve 'cloog-ppl-0.15.7'.
[11:29] Action: Laurenceb hasnt got a clue
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[12:14] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: ping
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[14:11] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: not got that far et
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[14:11] <SpeedEvil> yet
[14:11] <Laurenceb> im still trying to compile
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[14:12] <Laurenceb> oh bus pirate uses bit banged i2c for some stupid reason - the enable hardare i2c macro is commented out in the headers
[14:12] <Laurenceb> and so it cant deal with clk hold
[14:12] <Laurenceb> fail
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[14:24] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: im getting http://pastebin.com/DDaL4JXs http://pastebin.com/RQ1nMFHe
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[14:27] <SpeedEvil> Sorry - I have no idea whatsoever - I haven't started trying to compile stuff.
[14:28] <Laurenceb> i thought it was the path but thats not fixed it
[14:29] <Laurenceb> cant find an email for the developer or id ask for a .img
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> you saw the IRC channel?
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> #df3120
[14:31] <Laurenceb> oh wow
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[17:32] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8XjIkdUQns
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[17:36] <griffonbot> Received email: oblong <toroblong@hotmail.com> "Hello Everyone - newbie here"
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[17:41] <W0OTM> howdy
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[17:47] <W0OTM> grr why does the predictor do this? http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=aeb8b6dc14be88a345987e4c11a06e8735975386
[17:49] <jonsowman> bad NOAA data
[17:49] <jonsowman> try again now
[17:50] <W0OTM> hmm, that worked. what did you do?
[17:51] <W0OTM> is it possible I get bad data from NOAA for my region?
[17:51] <W0OTM> seems to happen alot
[17:52] <jonsowman> the data is downloaded to the habhub server, and sometimes the data has bad bits in it
[17:52] <jonsowman> for reasons unknown
[17:53] <jonsowman> the predictor caches the bad data so it breaks all the time
[17:53] <jonsowman> i just cleared the cache
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[17:54] <W0OTM> ahh, is there a way a user can clear the cache?
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[17:55] <W0OTM> would be a cool enhancement to maybe check a box that say "Refresh NOAA Data"
[18:02] <jonsowman> open a github issue for it :)
[18:02] <jonsowman> http://github.com/jonsowman/cusf-standalone-predictor
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[19:56] <priyesh> exit
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[20:18] <griffonbot> Received email: "Lee West" <aiqy65@googlemail.com> "RE: Guidance for a 'Code' Virgin"
[20:18] <jonsowman> Randomskk: ^^ hehe that email
[20:19] <jonsowman> "[...] I can upload the ferret code and happily get RTTY (ferre"
[20:19] <Randomskk> hah
[20:19] <Randomskk> ohgod
[20:19] <jonsowman> I know right
[20:19] <Randomskk> I guess dodgy interrupts due to softserial messing up delay timing?
[20:19] <jonsowman> could well be
[20:20] <jonsowman> I need to put a big notice in the readme saying "this is not finished!!111one"
[20:21] <Randomskk> indeed
[20:22] <jonsowman> I can't even guess what's happening with that ferret code
[20:22] <jonsowman> he's using the one from Nova18
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[20:22] <jonsowman> not librtty
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[20:27] <The-Compiler> fsphil: ping
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[20:31] <The-Compiler> fsphil: just a random idea, as I guess you haven't found the payload yet: Have you already tried to run the predictor with the last position and altitude you had? I somehow remember an option to calculate the descending part only, maybe it was in some predictor binary for linux though
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[21:01] <fsphil> The-Compiler, the live predictor pretty much did that - used the strings it received on descent
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[21:02] <fsphil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/fsphil/5339784169/
[21:02] <The-Compiler> fsphil: hmm okay, is that predictor something you coded by yourself?
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[21:02] <fsphil> jonsowman and others did that, I think its a CUSF project
[21:03] <fsphil> I don't know how accurate it is - it was moving east a little with each new position
[21:03] <The-Compiler> neat, any wiki page or anything about that?
[21:04] <fsphil> the source code for the stand-alone version is here: https://github.com/jonsowman/cusf-standalone-predictor
[21:04] <The-Compiler> kthx!
[21:05] <fsphil> I don't know if the live version is the same, but natrium42 might be the one to ask
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[21:07] <fsphil> I managed to decode a bit more of the last image: http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/ssdv/images/2011-01-09--12-53-36-hadie-07.jpeg
[21:08] <fsphil> turns out fldigi works better with a narrow filter than the default
[21:08] <fsphil> narrower
[21:09] <NigeyS> nom nom nom that pizza was lush!
[21:09] <NigeyS> hey phil
[21:10] <fsphil> hiya NigeyS ! mmmm yea pizza is always goood
[21:10] <NigeyS> yush dominos kicks ass!
[21:10] <NigeyS> feel fat now though lol
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[21:45] <jcoxon> evening all
[21:45] <fsphil> hullo jcoxon, how's things?
[21:45] <jcoxon> good thanks
[21:45] <jcoxon> you?
[21:46] <fsphil> not bad. having a lazy evening
[21:46] <jcoxon> fair enough
[21:49] <jcoxon> anything heard from hadie:2?
[21:50] <fsphil> not a peep I'm afraid
[21:50] <jcoxon> have you added it to the wiki launch list?
[21:50] <fsphil> ah, was just looking at that
[21:51] <fsphil> noticed a few that had been found after a few weeks in the wild
[21:51] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:51] <jcoxon> take long to rebuild?
[21:52] <fsphil> it shouldn't - I've been thinking of what I could do differently, and the antenna is definitely tops
[21:52] <jcoxon> interesting
[21:52] <fsphil> going to test that bit to death
[21:52] <jcoxon> i really like 1/4 wave GP
[21:52] <fsphil> that's what I had
[21:52] <jcoxon> how did you construct it?
[21:52] <fsphil> I might have just made it wrong
[21:52] <fsphil> it was a chassis SMA socket, the one with the four holes
[21:53] <fsphil> a wire soldered to the centre pin, and four to the holes
[21:53] <fsphil> there's a picture of it on a friends camera, trying to get a copy
[21:53] <jcoxon> i usually take a bit of coax
[21:53] <jcoxon> strip it back down to the central core to make my antenna
[21:54] <jcoxon> then solder on radials to the coax
[21:54] <fsphil> how do you keep the radials in position?
[21:54] <fsphil> that's a much better idea than what I did
[21:54] <fsphil> the solder joint was probably too weak
[21:54] <jcoxon> i tape them to the bottom of the payload
[21:55] <fsphil> a bit of flexing and I bet it broke
[21:55] <jcoxon> its not that easy to strip down 17cm of coax :-p
[21:55] <fsphil> oh I know, had to strip and then fold back 17cm to make the bazooka vertical
[21:56] <fsphil> I like the idea of fixing the radials to the payload
[21:58] <fsphil> I found that having a narrow filter in dl-fldigi helped decoding - I ran through some captured audio and managed to decode about 5 more image packets
[22:00] <griffonbot> @nearsys: AE360 sensor directions are complete. Organizing class materials. Need to write a robotics article next. #ARHAB #robotics [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/24948816755032064]
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[22:22] <fsphil> how goes the pico project?
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[22:24] <jcoxon> have started construction
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[22:24] <jcoxon> as our seeedstudio order is still stuck in customs (will be delivered tomorrow) i'm having to use an arduino pro rather then super light seeeduino film
[22:24] <jcoxon> but that doesnt matter too much
[22:24] <jcoxon> easier to prototype
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[22:26] <fsphil> still on for a monday launch?
[22:26] <jcoxon> yeah should do
[22:26] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[22:26] <jcoxon> back in 30 mins
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[22:38] <griffonbot> Received email: John Underwood <john@jcu.me.uk> "Re: Guidance for a 'Code' Virgin"
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[23:05] <jcoxon> back
[23:08] <fsphil> wb
[23:09] <fsphil> I just realised i forgot to take a copy of the CHDK script. d'oh!
[23:09] <jcoxon> oh no!
[23:09] <fsphil> definitely, making a checklist this time :)
[23:10] <jcoxon> there is a checklist on teh wiki that is a good start
[23:10] <fsphil> ah brilliant, missed that
[23:12] <fsphil> a sun shade for the laptop screen too
[23:12] <jcoxon> yes
[23:12] Action: jcoxon has wired up the gps to the arduino
[23:20] <fsphil> what are you receiving the 868mhz signal with?
[23:21] <jcoxon> i've got a radio modem pair
[23:21] <jcoxon> and going to use steve's tv antenna which is nearly 868
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[00:00] --- Wed Jan 12 2011