highaltitude.log.20101221

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[00:01] <SpeedEvil> Sorry it diddn't work tim. Still got phone number on it if it gets found?\
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[00:12] <Dave-M0MYA> timbobel, sorry to rub salt in the wounds; I know nothing of your launch, but I wander how far off your landing might have been from the predicted site? I'm just gathering info so I stand a fighting chance when I launch mine :/
[00:12] Action: Dave-M0MYA feels a bit horrible for aksing =)
[00:12] <Dave-M0MYA> *asking
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[00:27] <timbobel> readup is on www.hollandshoogte.nl
[00:28] <timbobel> @Dave: the prediction i think is good for around 75km around the point it says it goes to. It really depends strongly on all kinds of parameters
[00:29] <timbobel> That was around the error i had with HoHoHo-I
[00:29] <timbobel> it landed in a giant lake, instaed of far away from it
[00:31] <Lunar_Lander> did you use the CUSF predictor?
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[00:34] <Lunar_Lander> btw thank you for the thank you to me on the blog :)
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[00:58] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXiCMatQ-8g&feature=related
[00:59] <Dave-M0MYA> timbobel, thanks for the link - for what its worth your project was one of the very first (i.e the first day I heard of all this madness!) that made me want launch my own balloon . Fingers crosses for the retrieval of you payload :/
[01:01] <timbobel> actually everything is a lot of fun, and you can make a launch as simple or complicated as you want. but be sure you have people to help
[01:01] <timbobel> im 100% on my own and that's fairly hard
[01:01] <timbobel> i'd like a cambridge CUSF style 'home base' where 5 people with computers are tracking with a beamer in front of them =)
[01:01] <timbobel> >>> who has experience with the Leaf Maple?
[01:02] <Lunar_Lander> timbobel weren't the two people from the last launch in the car this time?
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[01:03] <Dave-M0MYA> timbobel, I am also pretty lonely in this game, tho I suspect I can gather a few people to help me track it when the day comes. Did you use a NTX-2?
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[01:07] <Dave-M0MYA> I ask because I am interested to hear where you think your big shift came from? =)
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> If the divider fails somehow, that'd do it
[01:07] <Dave-M0MYA> ahhh, yes that make sense
[01:09] <Dave-M0MYA> while I'm at it - anyone got any ideas about frequency stability - I was thinking of a couple of well-calculated-resistors below the crystal on the NTX-2 =)
[01:13] Action: Dave-M0MYA has read further and answered some of his own questions :)
[01:16] <Dave-M0MYA> ah well, off to bed for me - I hope you find your payload timbobel, nn
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[01:38] <Lunar_Lander> wb natrium42
[01:38] <natrium42> hio
[01:38] <Lunar_Lander> timbobel still there?
[01:39] <natrium42> any updates re hohoho?
[01:39] <timbobel> hello
[01:39] <timbobel> well there is a write-up
[01:39] <Lunar_Lander> http://hollandshoogte.wordpress.com/flights/hohoho-iii-12-2010/
[01:39] <timbobel> www.hollandshoogte.nl
[01:39] <timbobel> if you find it you'll get earned
[01:39] <timbobel> thats the status =)
[01:39] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[01:40] <timbobel> i indeed suspect maybe a resistor or pin shorted or something
[01:40] <Lunar_Lander> tim did you hear what happened to the american balloon which launched in the night?
[01:40] <timbobel> also, it could be the NTX2 itself, since it was just a bit eaten by oxigen last flight
[01:40] <timbobel> no, what did?
[01:40] <Lunar_Lander> it came down in Ft. Stewart, Georgia
[01:40] <Lunar_Lander> which is an U.S. Army ground
[01:41] <timbobel> wow there are a massive amount of stations in the usa currently
[01:41] <timbobel> NATRIUM WOW how big is that range
[01:41] <timbobel> how did you manage that
[01:42] <timbobel> OMG FT stewart!!!!!!!!!
[01:42] <timbobel> then what?!
[01:42] <natrium42> timbobel, sorry to hear you lost it
[01:42] <natrium42> hopefully somebody finds it
[01:42] <natrium42> holland is pretty densely populated
[01:43] <natrium42> at least it's a learning experience :S
[01:43] <timbobel> yeah, but, not that part
[01:43] <timbobel> and, there is 20cm snow everywhere
[01:43] <timbobel> great for pictures; not for finding
[01:43] <timbobel> also, there is very little light and its like -10'C
[01:43] <natrium42> is the parachute bright?
[01:43] <timbobel> bright-red
[01:43] <natrium42> cool
[01:44] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I asked a friend from Georgia
[01:44] <Lunar_Lander> he said that US Army will probably fine him
[01:44] <Lunar_Lander> he said its unlikely that they'll interrogate him
[01:44] <timbobel> really?
[01:44] <timbobel> y
[01:44] <natrium42> lol
[01:44] <Lunar_Lander> yeah he dumped a box of electronics into a military zone
[01:44] <natrium42> i doubt anything is gonna happen
[01:44] <timbobel> indeed
[01:45] <timbobel> even fining wouldnt really be legit
[01:47] <timbobel> nn
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[01:48] <Lunar_Lander> yeah good night!
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[06:04] <TraumaPony> How do you guys heat your enclosures?
[06:05] <TraumaPony> Do you have just a loose heating element, or do you affix it directly to something?'
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[07:33] <Darkside> who says we heat the enclosures?
[07:33] <Darkside> :P
[07:33] <Darkside> most of the parts are rated to -40 or so
[07:33] <Darkside> the transmitters will drift a lot, but you can correct for that on the RX end
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[07:46] <TraumaPony> true
[07:46] <TraumaPony> How long does a typical flight last?
[08:08] Action: Laurence_ just got woken up by cold water pouring over his face
[08:09] <Laurence_> leaking pipes in attic :/
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[08:53] <fsphil> TraumaPony, depends on the ascent speed -- but usually less than 2 hours
[08:53] <TraumaPony> ah, k
[08:54] <TraumaPony> I was planning my battery usage on 10 hours of planned flight, haha
[08:55] <fsphil> well it's good to keep transmitting after landing, to help find it
[08:55] <TraumaPony> Yeah, good point
[08:56] <TraumaPony> We're probably going to have a mobile phone just call up and report its position
[08:56] <fsphil> that's good to have too
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[09:32] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jonsowman!jonsowman@sheeva.hexoc.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk
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[09:46] <Laurence_> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/1/1e/LINUXCUBE.jpg
[09:51] <Randomskk> but but my desktop is a cylinder
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[11:01] <DagoRed> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl2SmdElrOM&feature=sub
[11:01] <DagoRed> our last launch
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[13:39] <m1x10> Hi all !
[13:40] <m1x10> I got 8 days christmas holidays :):)
[13:42] <fsphil> woo-hoo!
[13:44] <m1x10> :):)
[13:44] <m1x10> Im totally happy
[13:44] <m1x10> I also received the usbtinyISP
[13:44] <m1x10> but I cant solder it ! :(
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[14:04] <fsphil> you can solder anything if you try hard enough ;)
[14:05] <m1x10> yes but no tools
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[14:10] <fsphil> ah
[14:10] <fsphil> a good soldering station is well worth it
[14:11] <m1x10> yes Im collecting a few euros to make a present to myself for christmas
[14:11] <m1x10> but a solder station
[14:11] <m1x10> buy*
[14:13] <fsphil> get something decent to clean the tip too
[14:13] <Upu_> Timobel's update his page
[14:13] <Upu_> http://www.hollandshoogte.nl/
[14:13] <Upu_> lost
[14:13] <fsphil> best thing I ever got was a wire-mesh cleaner thingy
[14:14] <m1x10> i took a brass sponge for cleaning the tip
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[14:16] <fsphil> perfect -- the wet sponges never work well
[14:17] <fsphil> it's a shame tim didn't record some of the telemetry, it might have been possible to recover something from it
[14:26] <fsphil> strange the sms backup didn't work
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[14:32] <m1x10> I just sew timbomel's page
[14:32] <m1x10> something went wrong i think
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[14:51] <LunarLander> hello
[14:51] <SpeedEvil> hello
[14:52] <LunarLander> do we have any launchings left this year?
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[14:56] <m1x10> Hi mafia
[15:01] <LunarLander> hi
[15:03] <m1x10> I got 8 days christmas holidays :):)
[15:06] <LunarLander> YAY
[15:08] <LunarLander> see you later
[15:08] <LunarLander> :)
[15:08] <m1x10> :p
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[15:27] <fsphil> looks like no more launches this year unfornatually
[15:27] <m1x10> haha
[15:28] <m1x10> new year will bring new hitech devices - wait and see - !
[15:28] <fsphil> homing-payloads -- they fly home after the balloon bursts
[15:29] <m1x10> lol
[15:29] <m1x10> nice idea thought
[15:29] <m1x10> though*
[15:29] <m1x10> and hard to implement i think
[15:29] <fsphil> very
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb was trying that
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> he had one fliught that had mechanical issues, though showed promise.
[15:30] <SpeedEvil> And hasn't yet launched the fixed version I think.
[15:32] <m1x10> Im building a system at 3.3v
[15:32] <m1x10> now im into that
[15:32] <m1x10> solving problems
[15:41] <fsphil> I wonder if tugging on the parachute lines with a servo would be enough to gain some control
[15:43] <GW8RAK> Isn't there a limitation about building your own UAV? A maximum allowable altitude or something?
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> tha'ts what Laurence was doing
[15:44] <fsphil> would it be considered a uav though?
[15:44] <fsphil> if it just had the parachute
[15:44] <fsphil> more a controlled fall than a flight
[15:44] <GW8RAK> I think to the powers that be, you'd have to argue that it wasnn't rather than them proving it was.
[15:45] <fsphil> yea
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[16:19] Nick change: Upu_ -> [STAR]Atanyi
[16:19] Nick change: [STAR]Atanyi -> Upu
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[16:34] <Laurence_> hi
[16:35] Action: Laurence_ reads scrollback
[16:38] <Laurence_> never go to plumb center
[16:39] <Laurence_> they tried to overcharge me by a factor of about 3
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> Oh noes!
[16:43] <Laurence_> had to get my plumber friend to go in an place the order for me
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> Do not wear nice clothes
[16:43] <Laurence_> heh
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> Also
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> http://www.trademate.co.uk/guest.asp?
[16:44] <Laurence_> most of my clothes are wet and frozen solid now after the pipework in the attic froze :(
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> travis perkins
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> oops
[16:44] <Laurence_> interesting
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> You can regidster with a fake buisness
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> well - for small values of fake
[16:44] <Laurence_> nice plan
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> and then get online prices
[16:45] <russss> I think my travis perkins card is just under my own name.
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> yeah - or that
[16:47] <m1x10> now all my circuit is at 3.3v except the humidity sensor which works at 5v. What neat trick can i do ?
[16:52] <fsphil> find one that works at 3.3?
[16:53] <m1x10> new money?
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[16:55] <Lunar_Lander> hello again
[16:56] <fsphil> sell the old one :)
[16:56] <fsphil> you could have a 5v regulator and power just that with 5v
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[17:01] <m1x10> i dont want to add new components
[17:01] <m1x10> i will remove the humid sensor
[17:01] <m1x10> :p
[17:06] <SpeedEvil> An AAA battery on the 3.3V rail
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[17:14] <m1x10> SpeedEvil why?
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> 3.3+1.5=5
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> For low values of 5
[17:29] <Laurence_> 1+1=3
[17:29] <Laurence_> for low values of 3
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> yup.
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[18:28] <eroomde> s'up all
[18:28] <eroomde> what's happening?
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> Not much.
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> I am being annoyed at ASDA - but that's not relevant.
[18:28] <jonsowman> hi eroomde
[18:28] <jonsowman> how're things
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[18:46] <Burninate> For my project I'm looking for a lightweight, very-wide-angle camera/lense combo w/ 4thirds or APS sensor - what kind of setup are you gentlemen using?
[18:48] Nick change: Burninate -> Burninate-AFK
[18:49] <eroomde> Burninate-AFK: i'm not completely up to date and the digital camera market but my understanding is the the 4thirds sensors are at the higher end of the consumer compact range?
[18:50] <eroomde> eg olympus pen and the panasonic equivalents
[18:50] <eroomde> jonsowman: things are good. having an easy day, had a drinksie thing in london last ngiht
[18:50] <jonsowman> excellent
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> Most people are just using random cameras.
[18:51] <Burninate-AFK> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sensor_sizes_overlaid_inside.svg
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> Canon is good because it can be reprogrammed
[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> right jonsowman ?
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> With buttons pressed down, or hacked firmware
[18:51] <Burninate-AFK> 1/1.6" is the largest point and shoot consumer format
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> chdk
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> Burninate-AFK: Also - it depends
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> Burninate-AFK: If you're at altitude - in many cases >1024*768 is somewhat pointless due to airblur
[18:52] <eroomde> Burninate-AFK: I don;t have an experience with 4/3rds camera, we tend to try and keep to the cheaper, more ebay-able end of the market given the modifications and risk of loss usually involved
[18:52] <jonsowman> Lunar_Lander: yes, some Canons support CHDK
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> If you want good pictures of the ground pointing straight down from 10km or so - things may differ
[18:53] <eroomde> Burninate-AFK: Canon compacts can take advanatge of an open source firmware called CHDK that allows you to write scripts to make the camera do things. like take a picture every 20 seconds then a 1 minute video, forever, or something like that
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> But if you're pointing at the horizon - 1024*768 is basically plenty
[18:53] <eroomde> I'm not sure I agree with a word of that SpeedEvil
[18:53] <eroomde> sorry
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> Unless you have stabilisation good enough, and point up at stars
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> fair enough :)
[18:53] <Burninate-AFK> I'm familiar with CHDK
[18:54] <eroomde> ok cool. well we're by and large CHDK users here
[18:54] <eroomde> for convenience
[18:54] <Burninate-AFK> Honestly I belong in #lowaltitude :) I'm trying to do 100m high aerial photography for a computer vision project, and I found out that rectilinear wide angle lenses could make things a lot more effective
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> Care to point at any picture that properly exploits - say - >5MP at altitude pointed at the horizon?
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> I'm just going off what I've seen.
[18:55] <Burninate-AFK> SpeedEvil - I understand the economics of it, but part of the reason is that digital camera image quality is proportional to sensor area
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> At 100m - things are utterly differnt.
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> I'm more commenting on the airblur issue.
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> At 100m - this is generally not an issue
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[18:56] <SpeedEvil> And if you have decent glass, and a steady enough cam, you can use as many megapixels as you can get
[18:57] <Laurence_> i wonder how well you could postprocess out the blur
[18:57] <eroomde> if you had a good imu, probably a pretty decent job could be done
[18:57] <Laurence_> if you cut down the resolution - so you just look at a central region
[18:57] <Laurence_> i was thinking no other data
[18:58] <Laurence_> if you could find the point spread function
[18:58] <eroomde> Burninate-AFK: the computer vision parts sounds interesting, would you mind explaining a bit more what the project is about? I quite understand if you'd rather not for commercial reasons or whatever
[18:58] <Laurence_> maybe aim a laser at it from the ground :P
[18:59] <Laurence_> not sure how bright that would be
[18:59] <eroomde> Laurence_: maybe on a different freq?
[18:59] <Laurence_> if you lined it up with a spotter scope
[18:59] <Burninate-AFK> eroomde: Photosynth + small UAV rather than lidar + pilot + plane for forestry
[19:00] Action: SpeedEvil needs to get his LIDAR on ebay.
[19:00] <eroomde> very interesting
[19:00] <Laurence_> eroomde: youd wreck some of the image with a red/green blurry dot
[19:00] <Laurence_> but that might give you an okish point spread function
[19:00] <Burninate-AFK> although I think we've graduated from Photosynth
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> Making a 3D model?
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> Burninate-AFK: Where are you? What are the UAV regulations?
[19:01] <Burninate-AFK> we're satisfied with "point clouds" at the moment, but if it turns out useful we can make surfaces out of them
[19:02] <Laurence_> Burninate-AFK: sorry i havent been following, what are you working on?
[19:02] <eroomde> Burninate-AFK: i'm involved with a 3d recontruction from uav-mounted camera project at the moment too
[19:02] <Burninate-AFK> as far as I can tell, "Avoid the FAA" is how UAV regulations work in the US.
[19:02] <Burninate-AFK> but so far we're legal, line of sight within 400 feet
[19:03] <Burninate-AFK> Laurence_: Photosynth + small UAV rather than lidar + pilot + plane for forestry
[19:03] <Laurence_> photosynth?
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> What sort of forestry apps?
[19:04] <Laurence_> ah forestry
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> Might multispectral be interesting?
[19:04] Action: Laurence_ is working on computer vision atm
[19:04] <Burninate-AFK> we're flexible, this is a noncommercial university lab
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[19:04] <Laurence_> its easier than i feared... gets very boring after a while
[19:05] <Laurence_> stupid mpeg motion interleaving :(
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[19:05] <Burninate-AFK> SpeedEvil: the fact that we get R,G,B out of it rather than just XYZ may make it more useful than a simple "cheap lidar" application - we're investigating that
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[19:06] <Burninate-AFK> We'd like to incorporate NIR eventually... but slow going on that so far
[19:06] <SpeedEvil> Burninate-AFK: What's your weight?
[19:07] <Burninate-AFK> max payload (<5min flying time): 1kg, up to 15 minutes with no payload
[19:07] <Laurence_> big
[19:07] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[19:08] <robint91> what is the normal mass of a HAB payload
[19:08] <Burninate-AFK> with a 5000mah battery, empty weight is 1.5kg
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> robint91: varies from 500g to 3kg ish
[19:08] <robint91> oaky
[19:08] <robint91> *okay
[19:09] <robint91> and size?
[19:09] <Burninate-AFK> http://www.aerobot.com.au/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=8
[19:09] <SpeedEvil> robint91: Depends on what sort of sensors you want, and how much you're willing tos pend on ballooon and heluiom
[19:09] <Laurence_> wow thats insane
[19:09] <robint91> SpeedEvil, just to make some calcutation of moment of inertia
[19:10] <Laurence_> thats what you're flying?
[19:10] <Burninate-AFK> yes
[19:11] Action: Laurence_ hates to think how much it costs
[19:11] <Laurence_> http://aerobot.com.au/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=63
[19:11] <Laurence_> i spot ublox
[19:11] <Burninate-AFK> yup
[19:11] <Laurence_> whats the firmware setup?
[19:12] <Laurence_> oh microcopter i see
[19:12] <Laurence_> thats very awesome
[19:13] <Burninate-AFK> It's not that it's difficult to crash, but it's rarely impossible to repair with cheap parts.
[19:14] <Burninate-AFK> a camera OTOH...
[19:14] <Laurence_> yeah - i was planning on a fixed wing foam thingy with push prop
[19:14] <Laurence_> for crash resistance
[19:14] <Laurence_> ive put together an autopilot board with stm32, havent populated any board yet tho
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> I have a paper UAV - http://www.mauve.plus.com/test.png
[19:15] <Burninate-AFK> we've got an EasyStar being set up at the moment as well with Ardupilot
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> Single fan, thrust vectored, basically a climb-optimised helicopter
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> Aim is to get to 5km or so, take a gigapixel pan, and land on the takeoff spot
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> The expensive parts are inside a CF egg, surrounded by foam.
[19:16] <SpeedEvil> Designed to take an impact at full speed at power into concrete.
[19:16] <Burninate-AFK> SpeedEvil: Have you seen this: http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/coanda-effect-saucer-ces-uav
[19:16] <Laurence_> that guy is a notorious fruitcake
[19:16] <Laurence_> - jln labs
[19:16] <SpeedEvil> I'm not aiming at that sort of thing - I basically want very fast vertical ascent
[19:17] <Laurence_> http://i.imgur.com/1miZE.png <- thats what i designed
[19:17] <Burninate-AFK> and yet it flies
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> Hovering is really, really energy inefficient in my design.
[19:17] <Laurence_> its aimed at fixed wing and quad/heli
[19:17] <Laurence_> i have about 20 boards, but im working on a 2nd version with ublox6 and dual antenni
[19:18] <SpeedEvil> neat.
[19:18] <Burninate-AFK> hovering is really, really inefficient everywhere it seems
[19:18] <SpeedEvil> Burninate-AFK: yes.
[19:18] <Laurence_> yeah - prefer fixed wing by far
[19:18] <SpeedEvil> Burninate-AFK: I have a much sillier paper design, which would cost about $50K to make, which is much funner.
[19:19] <Laurence_> im planning on getting some taoglas flexi thinfilm antenni
[19:19] <Laurence_> with ufl connector - then put one of each wing surface
[19:19] <SpeedEvil> About 30Kg of li-ion, 30kg of ducted fans, 80Kg of pilot with balls of steel.
[19:19] <Laurence_> lol
[19:19] <SpeedEvil> Basically a 1m*1m 50Kg or so hoverboard
[19:19] Action: Laurence_ is still working on 434mhz sdr tho :(
[19:19] <Laurence_> too many projects here
[19:19] <Burninate-AFK> Laurence_: on that note - is anyone 'round here working on a solar daytime fixed wing?
[19:19] <SpeedEvil> which can accellerate at ~2G at 0 speed.
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> We're more balloon.
[19:20] <Laurence_> Burninate-AFK: not that i know of
[19:20] <Laurence_> its not _that_ hard tho
[19:20] <Laurence_> theres thin film panels readily avaliable
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> I had a design that looked OK.
[19:20] <Laurence_> i looked at high altitude 24hour solar using cheap materials, but its only borderline possible
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> Using monocrystalline cells inside a transparent cylindrical fuselage.
[19:21] <Laurence_> the avaliable lipo capacities kill it
[19:21] <Burninate-AFK> it's only recently been done by professionals
[19:21] <Laurence_> yeah, with lithium sulphur
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[19:21] <SpeedEvil> Professionals aren't the only awesome people though.
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=961876
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> 225mg r/c plane
[19:21] <Laurence_> but with lithium sulphur its not too hard
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> for example
[19:22] <Burninate-AFK> but using expensive materials, an 8h solar cruising plane with a 1kg payload would be amazing
[19:22] <Laurence_> its not really practical with lipo
[19:23] <Laurence_> try as you might with the aerodynamics its only just going to fly
[19:23] <Laurence_> also varta have put a hold on polyflex
[19:23] <Laurence_> we're try to order some at work
[19:23] <Laurence_> *trying
[19:23] <SpeedEvil> I forgot - where is your actual work.
[19:24] <Burninate-AFK> I've been looking at something along these lines: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1233987
[19:24] <Laurence_> medical tronics company on nottingham uni campus
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I thought the medical thingy was a contract, not an actual job
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> Burninate-AFK: yeah - sink rate is where it's at for solar power
[19:26] <Burninate-AFK> Are these three equally valuable for min/max shopping purposes: sink rate, wing loading, W/kg
[19:27] <Laurence_> varta polyflex is 220Wh/Kg
[19:27] <Laurence_> but its virtually impossible to source
[19:28] <Burninate-AFK> Oh, I meant airframe
[19:28] <Laurence_> thats the highest energy density of anything other than lithium sulphur aiui
[19:28] <Laurence_> qinetiq used lithium sulphur on zephyr
[19:28] <Burninate-AFK> we're talking about 24h solar, I see
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[19:28] <n900evil> argh laptop died
[19:28] <Laurence_> theres a company in oxford making it, but research quantities only
[19:29] <Laurence_> thats where qinetiq got their cells
[19:29] <Laurence_> sorry im ranting on about 24hour
[19:29] <n900evil> 10w/kg isthe hard minimum to get levelflight if your airframe sinks 1m/s
[19:30] <Laurence_> yeah - 24hour is especially hard as you want it to fly high
[19:30] <Laurence_> so it needs to be extra large and slow
[19:31] <Laurence_> without falling apart on liftoff
[19:31] <Laurence_> if you want somethng thats just large and slow at ground level its easier, but a pain if its windy
[19:31] <Laurence_> - for sunlight only
[19:32] <Burninate-AFK> happily, sunlight corresponds to aerial photography :)
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[19:32] <arghevil> ok - backup laptop
[19:33] <arghevil> I was looking at conventional solar cells - 0.3mm thick mounted in gimbals
[19:33] <arghevil> And round - in a cylindrical fuselage
[19:33] <arghevil> Silly - but not in principle insane.
[19:33] <arghevil> Till it crashes, when you're fucked
[19:33] <Burninate-AFK> got the gimbals arghevil?
[19:33] <Burninate-AFK> I could use transparent gimbals for camera protection
[19:34] <arghevil> naah - simple ones - couple of bearings, some CF tube
[19:34] <arghevil> Or bamboo
[19:35] <Laurence_> for your house?
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> LOL
[19:36] <arghevil> Propulsion efficiency is the other thing you care about.
[19:36] <arghevil> I was wondering about flapping.
[19:36] <arghevil> It's in principle a lot more efficient
[19:37] <arghevil> Small tiny prop is horribly inefficient - you want to be moving air not much faster than your airframe is going, or you loose oodles of power.
[19:38] <Laurence_> yeah
[19:38] <Laurence_> thats a really important factor
[19:38] <Laurence_> also you need to look at weird airfoils
[19:38] <Laurence_> and get the right angle of attack and wing loading
[19:38] <arghevil> Also - genetic optimisation. Breed them!
[19:38] <Laurence_> lots to optimise
[19:38] <Laurence_> heh yeah
[19:39] <Laurence_> its really take a custom prop
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybv2_5jIn_0
[19:41] <m1x10> for the LD33v regulator what is the minimum input voltage so it outputs a stable 3.3v ?
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[19:44] <Laurence_> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10005
[19:44] <Laurence_> highish thrust imo
[19:46] <arghevil> I'm unsure
[19:46] <arghevil> If you need a custom prop
[19:47] <arghevil> I think you want as low a drag prop as you can get at a relatively low disk loading, but really high diameter
[19:47] <Laurence_> yeah, prop is as important as the wing
[19:47] <Laurence_> i cant really be bothered to make something like this tbh
[19:48] <Laurence_> very hard
[19:48] <Burninate-AFK> One thing I've wondered, without any knowledge of aerodynamics
[19:48] <arghevil> Arguably more so
[19:48] <Laurence_> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11888
[19:48] <arghevil> There is no one hard bit.
[19:48] <Laurence_> ^interesting motor
[19:48] <arghevil> It's all hard.
[19:48] <Burninate-AFK> Could you reverse a delta wing and pin it onto a sailplane without inducing serious drag?
[19:49] <Burninate-AFK> The intent would be to add as much lightweight area as possible for solar panels
[19:49] <Burninate-AFK> without increasing or significantly decreasing lift
[19:50] <arghevil> I think the answer is basically no
[19:50] <arghevil> http://www.drivecalc.de/PropCalc/index.html
[19:50] <arghevil> is also useful
[19:50] <arghevil> propcalc - PropCalc computes the performance data of propellers with a given geometry, notably in-flight thrust and power drain across the utilizable airspeed range. PropCalc comes with a database that contains the polars of current airfoils as well as geometrical data of a number of propellers.
[19:50] <arghevil> possibly of questionable accuracy - but still av rey good starting point
[19:51] <arghevil> Burninate-AFK, Or rather - yes - but you will also massively increase drag
[19:52] <Burninate-AFK> to put it another way:
[19:52] <Burninate-AFK> What if you took a twin tail aircraft and lengthened the wing by a few feet for the section between the tails
[19:53] <Burninate-AFK> anyway, I gtg guys
[19:53] <Burninate-AFK> cya
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> cu
[19:57] <robint91> what is the average spin of a hab?
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> Varies - a spin a second is not uncommon
[20:02] <robint91> okay
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander> the only countermeasure would be a sail or something with high drag
[20:02] <Lunar_Lander> Project Horus once tested that
[20:02] <robint91> Lunar_Lander, a reactionwheel?
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> that would be possible too, but I think it would be too heavy
[20:03] <SpeedEvil> Or that - but that's lots more complex
[20:03] <SpeedEvil> a fan on a stick would work too
[20:03] <robint91> http://i.imgur.com/2fyYU.png
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> I once even saw a nitrogen powered RCS for balloon payloads
[20:03] <SpeedEvil> How do you desaturate the momentum wheeel though
[20:04] <robint91> SpeedEvil, land :p
[20:04] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[20:06] <SpeedEvil> Consider something really simple - a diamond of fabric on the payload
[20:07] <SpeedEvil> to act as an airbrake
[20:07] <robint91> would it work in nearspace
[20:07] <robint91> with thin air
[20:08] <SpeedEvil> The air is what spins it in the first lace
[20:08] <SpeedEvil> place
[20:08] <robint91> it keeps it spinning because there isn't any moment to change the rotation speed
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:10] <SpeedEvil> the string gets wound up due to the balloon and/or payload getting spun up due to wind-shear
[20:10] <SpeedEvil> and then you get a rotational pendulumn thing going on
[20:11] <robint91> SpeedEvil, why would the string wound up?
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> because the balloon gets spun due to wind-shear
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> differential windspeeds on different sides of the balloon
[20:12] <robint91> mhh
[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> it is a torsional pendulum!
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> You could also add a fishing swivel
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50-BARREL-SWIVELS-SIZE-8-/300503815155?pt=UK_SportingGoods_FishingAcces_RL&hash=item45f76c53f3
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> Though I dunno how you'd pick one for really low torsion
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> Or cheat
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13517
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> and a ball bearing
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> LOL
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> Dimensions: 0 in x 0 in x 0 in
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> Weight: 0 oz
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[00:00] --- Wed Dec 22 2010