highaltitude.log.20101216

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[00:46] <SpeedEvil> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/5/52/Holyjimbo.jpg :)
[00:47] <natrium42> noooooooooooooo
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[04:06] Action: Hibby is writing his thesis section on AX.25 and TNCs... at 4am
[04:06] <Hibby> because I played EVE this evening instead.
[04:07] <Hibby> my character is significantly better than he was... totally stoked
[04:07] <Hibby> The 750000 skill points I earned thanks to the changes in the game were totally worth it ;)
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[09:45] <TraumaPony> Has anyone here used space blankets for insulation in a balloon?
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[09:58] <fsphil> I think jcoxon did for one of the ballasthalo flights
[10:00] <TraumaPony> hmm
[10:00] <russss> jcoxon uses them extensively, I think
[10:01] <fsphil> they do look the part
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[10:04] <TraumaPony> A'ight, cheers.
[10:04] <TraumaPony> How much of a problem is condensation?
[10:05] <fsphil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/4754754848/
[10:05] <juxta-phone> i had lots of condensation on my first launch when i sealed the camera's opening with a lens filter
[10:05] <TraumaPony> =D
[10:05] <TraumaPony> hmm
[10:05] <juxta-phone> Havent done that simce and it's been fine
[10:06] <TraumaPony> Will a couple of silica gel packets thrown in work well?
[10:06] <juxta-phone> i had a few in there - i dont think the moisture takeup is quick enough
[10:06] <TraumaPony> Hmm, k
[10:07] <juxta-phone> havent had any issues since i left the cams open to the air though
[10:07] <TraumaPony> fsphil: What's the tube for?
[10:07] <juxta-phone> I've heard of other people flushing the payload with helium too
[10:08] <juxta-phone> fsphil, when are you launching again?
[10:11] <fsphil> juxta-phone, this weekend hopefully
[10:11] <jonsowman> how are predictions looking?
[10:11] <fsphil> TraumaPony, not sure -- could be where the ballast is dumped from
[10:11] <TraumaPony> What's he use ballast for anyway?
[10:12] <fsphil> not great, saturdays prediction seems to have settled on the irish sea
[10:12] <jonsowman> :(
[10:12] <fsphil> with a slow ascent it lands in the lake district
[10:13] <fsphil> a quick ascent it lands in belfast -- so rock and hard place really :)
[10:14] <fsphil> I think I'll take the canon out of the payload, and make it a kamikaze flight
[10:15] <fsphil> sunday looks better, making it beyond the lake district -- but that prediction is probably uncertain atm
[10:16] <fsphil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/4754754848/
[10:16] <russss> TraumaPony: don't seal the payload. At altitude most of your heat loss is radiation, not convection anyway
[10:16] <russss> don't use a lens filter, the camera tends to get warm enough to de-ice itself
[10:16] <fsphil> acg
[10:16] <fsphil> copy and paste fail
[10:17] <fsphil> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=3ead0a89ee445050bcb5d9ab1a78e734ddb2e07c
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[10:17] <fsphil> no that's not right
[10:18] <fsphil> bbd, not ddb
[10:20] <fsphil> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=3ead0a89ee445050bcb5d9ab1a78e734bbd2e07c
[10:21] <TraumaPony> russss: Indeed
[10:21] <juxta-phone> fsphil - great
[10:22] <juxta-phone> I can't see the prediction atm but i trust it's good?
[10:23] <TraumaPony> So, just so I've got this straight, it'd be better to put the mylar on the inside of a styrofoam box, with the shiny side pointing in?
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[10:42] <fsphil> probably better on the outside
[10:43] <TraumaPony> But isn't the point to reradiate the heat from the electronics back upon itself?
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[10:52] <fsphil> the box itself will be radiating heat, if it's covered in the foil most of that will be inwards
[10:53] <TraumaPony> hmm
[10:53] <TraumaPony> good point
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[10:53] Nick change: Nigey|Away -> NigeyMoby
[10:53] <NigeyMoby> Moo
[10:54] <fsphil> Oink
[10:54] <NigeyMoby> Ello Phil
[10:55] <NigeyMoby> Dammit we have snow tomorrow and Saturday :(
[10:56] <TraumaPony> Lucky bastards.
[10:56] <TraumaPony> I woke up to the sound of my cpu overheating alarm going off
[10:56] <NigeyMoby> Oh dear, fan break?
[10:56] <TraumaPony> nope
[10:56] <TraumaPony> Just really hot
[10:57] <fsphil> snow forecast for here tonight
[10:57] <NigeyMoby> Yikes, send some heat this way
[10:58] <TraumaPony> Haha
[10:58] <TraumaPony> I'd be glad to
[10:58] Action: TraumaPony has never seen snow ;~;
[10:58] <NigeyMoby> Phil keep ure snow lol
[10:58] <NigeyMoby> Aww its lovely stuff honest
[10:58] <russss> 4 degrees sleet this afternoon
[10:59] Action: russss would rather be somewhere sunny.
[10:59] <TraumaPony> :X
[10:59] <TraumaPony> It was 33c when Iw oke up
[11:00] Action: fsphil likes snow :p
[11:00] <fsphil> not such a fan of slush
[11:00] Action: TraumaPony cries
[11:00] <jonsowman> or ice
[11:00] <fsphil> yea, ice makes things tricky
[11:01] <jonsowman> have to drive southampton to surrey on saturday
[11:01] <jonsowman> hoping the roads are alright
[11:01] <jonsowman> :\
[11:01] <fsphil> I'm driving to get the helium tomorrow, just hope the roads are clear
[11:01] <jonsowman> do you have to go far?
[11:01] <fsphil> not tooo far
[11:01] <fsphil> about 30 minutes away
[11:01] <jonsowman> fingers crossed then
[11:02] <fsphil> hopefully next time I can get it more locally
[11:03] <jonsowman> yeah
[11:04] <fsphil> how tricky is it to get a particular ascent speed?
[11:05] <jonsowman> trickier for lower speeds
[11:05] <jonsowman> I've found
[11:05] <jonsowman> getting ~2m/s for atlas was hard
[11:05] <fsphil> yea, it's about 2m/s I'm thinking of for saturday
[11:05] <jonsowman> and I think we overfilled a bit
[11:06] <jonsowman> trust the burst calc neck lift mass
[11:06] <jonsowman> even if it seems like you've not put enough in (which it really does)
[11:06] <fsphil> must remember to bring a good set of scales
[11:06] <jonsowman> yeah fish scales are great, and make sure they're of good enough resolution
[11:07] <jonsowman> I would advise taking actual masses as well
[11:07] <jonsowman> fish scales are hard to use if there's wind
[11:07] <jonsowman> masses are easier in that situation
[11:07] <fsphil> I'll be bringing some bottles with water
[11:07] <jonsowman> if you want to add a safety factor, add 100g max to neck lift
[11:07] <jonsowman> yea, good plan
[11:08] <fsphil> so the goal is to have just enough lift so that it hovers with the dummy weight?
[11:08] <jonsowman> correct
[11:08] <jonsowman> obviously the calc is only as good as the information you give it
[11:08] <jonsowman> so weigh the payload accurately
[11:08] <jonsowman> including the nylon cord and the chute
[11:08] <fsphil> indeed, I'll be weighing all that the night before
[11:09] <fsphil> if I skip the camera it's going to be a bit lighter than I'd planned for
[11:09] <GW8RAK> fsphil, the winds for Sunday will need careful weighing and rate of ascent calculation.
[11:10] <jonsowman> also during the first couple of km's of ascent, the rate will be all over the place due to ground effects
[11:10] <jonsowman> so don't worry, it'll level out
[11:10] <jonsowman> s/level out/settle down/
[11:10] <GW8RAK> I just tried the 2m/s mentioned above and it lands right over on the East coast.
[11:10] <GW8RAK> Looks like you have to get really close to 2.5m/s
[11:10] <fsphil> yea sunday's prediction has a stronger wind
[11:11] <fsphil> saturday might be better, more safety room
[11:11] <jonsowman> what size balloon fsphil?
[11:11] <fsphil> 30km - 35km burst will still place it on land with a 2m/s ascent
[11:11] <fsphil> jonsowman, 1kg
[11:11] <jonsowman> cool
[11:12] <fsphil> the lighter payload may mean a higher burst altitude
[11:12] <jonsowman> what altitude is the burst calc saying for 2m/s
[11:17] <fsphil> 36km, assuming 600g payload
[11:17] <jonsowman> it won't get that high
[11:18] <GW8RAK> fsphil, do you have a cut off time for a flight/no flight decision on Saturday?
[11:18] <fsphil> GW8RAK, Friday night :)
[11:18] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[11:18] <fsphil> I'll know for sure then
[11:18] <GW8RAK> Okay, thanks
[11:19] <fsphil> my only concern atm is the snow
[11:19] <fsphil> if it's deep I might not be able to get to the launch site
[11:20] <GW8RAK> The rain has just about gone through now and it will be interesting watching the temperature falling today.
[11:20] <fsphil> yea
[11:20] <fsphil> falling snow would also cause problems -- the payload would get covered
[11:21] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jonsowman!jonsowman@sheeva.hexoc.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk - HADIE 2 SSDV Launch 18/12/10 from An Creagan, N. Ireland
[11:21] <Laurenceb> superpressure effects start to limit altitude
[11:21] #highaltitude: mode change '-o jonsowman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[11:21] <Laurenceb> and poss uv and free radical exposure
[11:21] <Laurenceb> its hard to get past 36Km
[11:21] <Laurenceb> if the predictor says 36, expect 34 or 35
[11:22] <fsphil> I'm half expecting it to be 20km and dumping in the sea ;)
[11:23] <jonsowman> hope not
[11:23] <fsphil> or it makes landfall, but over the yorkshire dales
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[11:29] <NigeyMoby> Hm
[11:31] Nick change: NigeyMoby -> Nigey|Away
[11:32] <fsphil> heh, it's snowing
[11:32] <fsphil> arrived early
[11:35] <TraumaPony> :<
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[12:03] <fsphil> wasn't that much so far
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[12:27] <NigeyS> meh
[12:28] <Darkside> Laurenceb: we had predicted 32 and we got to 35 once >_>
[12:28] <Laurenceb> interesting
[12:28] <Darkside> that was from underestimating chinese balloons tho
[12:28] <Laurenceb> but <36km
[12:28] <Darkside> yeah :P
[12:29] <Darkside> we're hoping to get something higher than 36 at some point
[12:29] <Darkside> juxta: about?
[12:32] <fsphil> knowing my luck it'll hit 36km
[12:32] <fsphil> good in that it's a good altitude, bad in that it'll be on the north sea ;)
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[13:12] <Upu> get it right eventually
[13:12] <Upu> I want a balloon!
[13:14] <fsphil> woo!
[13:14] <fsphil> not long now then
[13:15] <Upu> yeah just fiddling with the casing
[13:15] <Upu> testing
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[13:18] <jonsowman> payload complete then Upu?
[13:19] <Upu> yeah pretty much
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[13:19] <Upu> just need to cut a few blocks of polystyrene to shape to ensure the camera doesn't move
[13:19] <jonsowman> :D
[13:19] <jonsowman> you had it running with the tracker?
[13:19] <jonsowman> sorry I can't remember
[13:19] <Upu> yeah last week
[13:19] <jonsowman> oh cool ok :)
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[13:20] <jonsowman> zeusbot hates me :(
[13:20] <Upu> I just need to put the lot in the fridge and test it works ok :)
[13:20] <jonsowman> hehe
[13:21] <jonsowman> excellent
[13:21] <jonsowman> where will you be launching from?
[13:21] <Upu> well York I hope just waiting on Rob Harrison getting NOTAM
[13:22] <Upu> Oh I really need to check my code can handle a - in the latitude
[13:22] <jonsowman> hehe yes
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[13:22] <jonsowman> that bug has occured lots of time
[13:22] <jonsowman> s
[13:22] <NigeyS> jonsowman, the tracker keeps going funky for me :(
[13:22] <LazyLeopard> ...but usually just in longitude. ;)
[13:22] <jonsowman> NigeyS: what's up with it?
[13:22] <jonsowman> LazyLeopard: true
[13:23] <jonsowman> if lat goes negative you've got problems
[13:23] <NigeyS> if i run a prediction of my own, and sometimes on clicking a url from others, the map area goes all black
[13:23] <jonsowman> oh predictor
[13:23] <LazyLeopard> ...unless you're launching from somewhere near the equator, anyway.
[13:23] <NigeyS> yeah sorry predictor, keep getting the 2 mixed up
[13:24] <jonsowman> have you got a uuid?
[13:24] <fsphil> launching from a nice warm country ... mmmm
[13:24] <NigeyS> let me get a screenshot ..
[13:24] <jonsowman> fsphil: lol
[13:25] <jonsowman> NigeyS: could do with a uuid please :)
[13:25] <fsphil> I wish I'd put a temperature sensor on this flight
[13:25] <NigeyS> oki 2 secs then
[13:25] <jonsowman> thanks
[13:25] <jonsowman> fsphil: difficult to stick one in quickly?
[13:25] <fsphil> it might not be -- I've got an i2c one I think
[13:26] <NigeyS> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=1f5c4a08b69c62dbfba4b3e1652c20e466cc52ae
[13:26] <NigeyS> it goes black as soon as i hit run prediction
[13:26] <jonsowman> runs fine for me here
[13:26] <NigeyS> hm
[13:26] <fsphil> here too -- what browser?
[13:27] <jonsowman> FF 3.6
[13:27] <jonsowman> 3.6.13 on OS X
[13:27] <SpeedEvil> works here
[13:28] <NigeyS> i.e 8 and same with ff
[13:28] <NigeyS> http://www.nigey.co.uk/images/predictor.jpg
[13:28] <SpeedEvil> FF3.6.13 NigeyS's last URL
[13:28] <SpeedEvil> slackware
[13:28] <Darkside> works in chrome on OSX
[13:28] <jonsowman> hmm weird
[13:28] <jonsowman> fsphil: you using IE?
[13:28] <fsphil> firefox
[13:28] <Darkside> lol landing on torchwood
[13:28] <jonsowman> very odd
[13:29] <NigeyS> very odd, but if i click on an existing uuid it seems ok 99% of the time :|
[13:29] <Darkside> wait, launching from torchwood
[13:29] <NigeyS> haha yeah DS, they filmed torchwood just 10mins from where i live
[13:30] <Darkside> haha
[13:30] <fsphil> in IE 6 I get a black screen briefly, then the map loads
[13:30] <jonsowman> NigeyS: anything abnormal in the debug window?
[13:30] <Darkside> IE6...
[13:30] <Darkside> what the HELL Are you using IE6 for >_>
[13:30] <jonsowman> fsphil: I refuse to support IE6
[13:30] <jonsowman> haha
[13:30] <NigeyS> let me check, iirc it was all fine when i had debug on yesterday
[13:30] <fsphil> unfornatually some of our customers still use it -- but I'm making it difficult for them
[13:31] <Darkside> hmm i might go get ready for bed..
[13:31] <jonsowman> I wrote the predictor with firefox and chrome, it used to compeltely break in IE and not work at all
[13:31] <Darkside> since i can't think of anything else i need to do tonight
[13:31] <jonsowman> I spent quite a while ironing out the issues
[13:31] <jonsowman> thought I'd got them all, but maybe not
[13:31] <NigeyS> hm nope jon debug is fine, it must be an OS / browser issue
[13:31] <jonsowman> very odd
[13:32] <jonsowman> that's the first problem like that anyone has had since I made an effort to make the thing cross-browser
[13:32] <NigeyS> it is indeed, if i close it, and click the uuid link it was on, it shows fine
[13:32] <fsphil> NigeyS, it's landing in London -- probably best you don't see it :)
[13:32] <NigeyS> oh eck lol
[13:32] <jonsowman> NigeyS: anything in IE's javascript error console?
[13:32] <NigeyS> ah yes
[13:32] <NigeyS> main.js undefined
[13:33] <NigeyS> http://pastebin.com/Fni6UzyH
[13:33] <jonsowman> uh what
[13:34] <jonsowman> ah
[13:34] <NigeyS> double dutch to me..lol
[13:35] <jonsowman> well I understand what it's saying
[13:35] <jonsowman> I've no idea why though
[13:35] <NigeyS> oh good lol, its only recent mind, id say thats started in the last week or so
[13:35] <jonsowman> that main.js is a google maps file
[13:36] <NigeyS> ah
[13:36] <jonsowman> not directly included/used from any of my code
[13:37] <NigeyS> weird
[13:39] <jonsowman> :q
[13:39] <jonsowman> oops. this isn't vim
[13:40] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[13:41] <Darkside> hahahaha
[13:41] <Darkside> :wq!
[13:51] <fsphil> google maps work for you NigeyS?
[14:00] <NigeyS> yups :|
[14:02] <fsphil> weird
[14:38] <TraumaPony> I don't suppose anyone can recommend some good books on spacecraft electronics?
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> yes
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> But I forgot
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> Also - spacecraft electronics and
[14:40] <SpeedEvil> balloon are quite disparate
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[14:41] <SpeedEvil> For balloon, the basic ones are just make sure the connectors are secure, and don't pop off wehn you put on the case.
[14:43] <TraumaPony> Yeah, heh
[14:44] <SpeedEvil> 'most' electronics works OK surprisingly.
[14:44] <TraumaPony> Oh?
[14:45] <SpeedEvil> Caveats are basically limited to some cameras grease freezing up sometimes.
[14:45] <SpeedEvil> and tha'ts not generally a problem if it's taking pictures
[14:45] <TraumaPony> Yeah, we plan to have a heating element or two
[14:46] <SpeedEvil> If the camera is taking pictures, that outputs a watt or several
[14:46] <Elwell> what sorta temps does an average flight go down to?
[14:46] <TraumaPony> Oh, that's good
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> -55C is about the minimum outside temp
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> From memory - it hits that at 18km or so
[14:47] <SpeedEvil> it then rises to -20 or so at 35km which is about the top you can easily hit with a latex balloon
[14:48] <TraumaPony> hrmmm
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> but lithium AA cells ork well at that temp
[14:48] <TraumaPony> We're thinking of using a milk crate as a frame, and then attaching like 6 inches of styrofoam and a few layers of mylar
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> oh - a big one
[14:48] <SpeedEvil> why so large?
[14:49] <TraumaPony> As a test rig
[14:49] <TraumaPony> We need a ~6kg capacity
[14:49] <SpeedEvil> Ideally, you should design the payload so you are comfortable with it being dropped on your head from 35000m
[14:50] <TraumaPony> heh
[14:50] <TraumaPony> it's more a test to see if our electronics work up that high
[14:50] <TraumaPony> We're making a cubesat eventually, and first stage is testing it in a balloon
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> I note that I was surprised to find my freezer will go to -43C
[14:50] <SpeedEvil> I see.
[14:51] <SpeedEvil> http://www.appliancesonline.co.uk/product/RCNAA53P-Hotpoint-Chest-Freezer-White-14752.aspx
[14:51] <SpeedEvil> This was in 10C ambient with the 'freeze' button pressed down - I was expecting a powercut
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[14:52] <SpeedEvil> It's awesome - it took 35 hours to get to -18C when turned off
[14:53] <TraumaPony> Hmm
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[15:29] <Zuph> SpeedEvil: Lucked out on that one. We had to add 4 inches of insulation to our chest freezer. $20 of dry ice keeps it at -40 for 36 hours, though.
[15:57] <fsphil> Cubesats are nifty
[15:59] <TraumaPony> Indeed ^^
[16:05] <fsphil> I wonder how well one of the hab flight computers would work in space
[16:06] <fsphil> an ntx2 should be detectable on the ground
[16:07] <GW8RAK> Cubesats are too big. Have a look at http://mypocketqub.wordpress.com/
[16:07] <russss> the Interorbital Systems tubesat buses actually use radiometrix transmitters
[16:07] <GW8RAK> And the Sprite chipsats
[16:07] <russss> http://www.interorbital.com/images/TubeSat%20Transceiver%20PCB_assembled_components.jpg
[16:07] <fsphil> private blog, can't see the pocketqub one
[16:08] <GW8RAK> Oh of course. They were proposed by the guy who conceived Cubesats, but are only 50mm cube
[16:08] <fsphil> oh excellent
[16:08] <GW8RAK> The Sprite chipsets are 25mm square 4 of them go on one face of the PocketQub.
[16:09] <GW8RAK> Mostly solar cell, but some processing power plus a tx.
[16:09] <fsphil> be enough space for a surface mount atmega644p, camera and transceiver
[16:11] <GW8RAK> http://www.spacecraftresearch.com/MII/MII_overview.html for the Sprites
[16:13] <russss> power/link budget for a camera is a bit tight with that small a surface area
[16:14] <fsphil> only needs to be powered up for a few moments to take the image
[16:14] <fsphil> since it will take so long to downlink it
[16:16] <TraumaPony> Indeed :3
[16:17] <fsphil> aiming it would be the trick
[16:17] <TraumaPony> Well if it was spinning it'd probably pick up the earth eventually
[16:18] <russss> yeah attitude control
[16:18] <GW8RAK> You could power a small electromagnet and it would align with the earth's magnetic field
[16:18] <TraumaPony> nice idea
[16:18] <fsphil> yea
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[16:19] <GW8RAK> Not mine, it's already in use (I think)
[16:19] <TraumaPony> Yeah
[16:19] <russss> spacecraft do use that concept, but generally only for detorquing flywheel stabilisation
[16:19] <russss> I assume because it's quite slow
[16:19] <TraumaPony> Yeah I think it takes a week or two to orient it correctly
[16:19] <GW8RAK> Just downloaded a datasheet marked Confidential. The sheet is blank. Not much point having it on the web is there?
[16:19] <TraumaPony> lmao
[16:20] <russss> the problem is successfully downlinking your image once you've taken it uses quite a lot of power
[16:21] <TraumaPony> indeed
[16:21] <russss> and if you don't have attitude control you'll need to use an omni antenna which is dumping half your tx power into space
[16:21] <TraumaPony> cubesats are 100mm^3 right?
[16:21] <GW8RAK> Yes
[16:21] <fsphil> line of sight, even at low power it should work fairly well
[16:22] <TraumaPony> I wonder how much power you can draw from a 100mm^2 solar panel above the atmosphere
[16:22] <GW8RAK> Depending on where they are deployed, you could use other satellites as intermediate relays.
[16:22] <GW8RAK> Cubesats have a max power budget of 1W
[16:22] <GW8RAK> IIRC
[16:23] <fsphil> that's a fair bit
[16:23] <russss> if you do the maths you need significant RX gain to get decent bandwidth out of a 500mW signal
[16:23] <fsphil> yea, it's not going to be fast
[16:23] <TraumaPony> Approximately how much?
[16:24] <TraumaPony> I haven't done that yet
[16:24] <TraumaPony> As in, learned it.
[16:24] <russss> it's relatively simple
[16:24] <russss> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-space_path_loss
[16:24] <TraumaPony> 1/r^2?
[16:26] <TraumaPony> Ah that's simple enough
[16:26] <russss> yeah, the FSPL formula is proportional to 1/r^2
[16:27] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUDuPWRiRug&feature=channel
[16:27] <TraumaPony> What would be an example frequency so I can work it out?
[16:27] <TraumaPony> ~400mhz?
[16:27] <russss> ~433MHz is what those tubesats appear to transmit at
[16:27] <TraumaPony> omg pwn
[16:28] <russss> do it for ~3GHz as well and you'll see why deep-space probes use higher frequencies :)
[16:28] <russss> wait, no, that's a lie
[16:28] <russss> my brain just inverted
[16:28] <GW8RAK> Max solar radiation on a cubesat is 3W while average is 1.4W
[16:29] <russss> deep-space probes use higher frequencies because of the noise floor
[16:31] <TraumaPony> Ah
[16:31] <russss> which is another component of the link loss formula
[16:32] Action: TraumaPony is doing a BE in avionics, focusing on spacecraft communications, haha
[16:33] <fsphil> the voyager probes use 8.4ghz
[16:34] <GW8RAK> One big advantage of higher frequencies is that high gain aerials at both ends are easier to make.
[16:35] <TraumaPony> How come?
[16:35] <TraumaPony> Don't they have trouble penetrating the atmospere?
[16:37] <GW8RAK> Some frequencies are definitely out, but a 10m dish has 50+dB of gain.
[16:37] <fsphil> only certain frequencies are absorbed
[16:38] <russss> yeah, dish antennas are easier to make and easier to aim too
[16:39] <GW8RAK> The future Square Kilometer array will have about 100dB of gain.
[16:39] <GW8RAK> I wonder if Moonraker will be supplying the parts?
[16:39] <fsphil> shame too, because making a huge dipole would be easy in space :)
[16:41] <TraumaPony> heh
[16:41] <TraumaPony> Isn't a dipole just two strands of wire seperated 180 degrees?
[16:42] <fsphil> yea
[16:42] <fsphil> each wire being a quarter of the wavelength
[16:42] <fsphil> well, sorta
[16:43] <TraumaPony> What I still haven't figured out is how the hell antennas work if no current flows through them
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> cubesats - yeah - you can go a lot smaller
[16:43] <SpeedEvil> I did some BOTE designs for a 10g sat - it can be surprisingly capable
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[16:44] <SpeedEvil> roughly pointed 3 degree or so FOV 2MP camera, ...
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> 30
[16:45] <fsphil> current does flow in the antenna, I'm just not sure how
[16:45] <TraumaPony> o.O
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> hardest part is comms
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> As you're not getting that image back simply
[16:46] Action: Zuph learned today that the Voyager probes use propulsive RCS thruster to maintain pointing.
[16:46] <Zuph> And they've only used half their fuel so far.
[16:47] <TraumaPony> Zuph: Hax
[16:47] <TraumaPony> SpeedEvil: How slow would it be?
[16:47] <TraumaPony> ~15 minutes?
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[16:48] <SpeedEvil> TraumaPony: no - weeks over multiple orbits
[16:48] <TraumaPony> Ah.
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> TraumaPony: Even if you have a modestly large groundstation and are able to hit say 150kbps - over a 3 min LEO window, that's 2.7 megabytes only
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> And the sat could easily get gigabytes of imagery a day
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> And even store it
[16:49] <TraumaPony> Well, you could just have it take one pic every orbit
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering about for a slightly more capable system instead of RF, going optical.
[16:50] <TraumaPony> Hmm
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> something capable of squirting a 622mbps laser down to a large light-bucket
[16:51] <TraumaPony> Now that would be interesting
[16:54] <fsphil> I'm going to try optical on a future hab flight
[16:55] <fsphil> small solar cell in the eyepiece of a telescope as the receiver
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> I have a design for a laser ranger, which would be very close.
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> PIN diode?
[17:01] <fsphil> not actually sure, the cell it just sold as a very small PV panel
[17:01] <fsphil> it/is
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> yeah - PIN diodes can be do many MHz
[17:05] <fsphil> BPW34
[17:06] <fsphil> yea, PIN diode
[17:08] <fsphil> I'll be using a fairly low frequency though, only about 10khz
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> maxim-ic has some good app-notes
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[17:12] <GW8RAK> Has anyone considered using microwaves and a Gunn diode for the downlink?
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[17:13] <SpeedEvil> downlink on?
[17:14] <GW8RAK> on a balloon?
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> Not licence free
[17:14] <GW8RAK> Pointing would be the biggest problem.
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> Well - till you get to - IIRC - 300GHz
[17:14] <GW8RAK> 24.150GHz is
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> For ariel use?
[17:14] <GW8RAK> Yes
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> quantum noise gets higher, and the background sky noise does too IIRC
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> Of course - dishes get way easier
[17:15] <GW8RAK> But very easy to modulate with a video signal.
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> yes
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[17:18] <GW8RAK> The allocation is 100MHz wide, so drift wouldn't automatically make it illegal
[17:20] <ejcweb> jonsowman: Are you around?
[17:26] <ejcweb> or Randomskk?
[17:29] <GW8RAK> Licence free 2.4Ghz transmitter for £11.
[17:39] Action: Randomskk is kind of
[17:41] <Randomskk> ejcweb: kind of
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[17:43] <Randomskk> have to go soonish though, then back home a bit after that
[17:44] <Randomskk> if you say something I'll read it and reply when I can
[17:44] <ejcweb> Randomskk: I was just thinking about starting some coding for the Android tracker that we were chatting about a while ago.
[17:45] <Randomskk> oh, as in the rtty decoding and sentence uploading?
[17:45] <Randomskk> or the other way around
[17:45] <Randomskk> the rtty transmitting?
[17:45] <ejcweb> Yep, the transmitting. Just wanted to check what data protocol it was... RTTY then?
[17:46] <ejcweb> I wasn't entirely sure how that works in terms of just playing tones out to the Radiometrix board.
[17:46] <ejcweb> But don't worry if you've got to disappear now.
[17:47] <Randomskk> it's called rtty, we use it with about 350Hz shift between the space and the mark frequency
[17:48] <Randomskk> essentially it's a case of transmitting two tones 350hz apart to the ntx2, and ideally about 1khz or 1.5khz centre frequency
[17:48] <Randomskk> you toggle between the tones at about 50 baud
[17:48] <Randomskk> and typically use 7 or 8 bit character encoding, exactly as in rs232
[17:48] <Randomskk> the start and stop bits are also as in rs232
[17:49] <Randomskk> basically you are transmitting rs232 with one tone for a low voltage, another tone for a high voltage, and at 50 baud
[17:49] <ejcweb> rs232 being 'standard' serial, right?
[17:49] <Randomskk> yes
[17:49] <ejcweb> Cool.
[17:49] <Randomskk> I don't think it really matters what tone you pick for mark or space as fldigi can reverse it, but I think space is the higher frequency - you might want to look that up
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[17:50] <ejcweb> Ok. Well as long as i've got the basic details right then it will be no problem at all to change in the code.
[17:50] <Randomskk> indeed
[17:50] <ejcweb> And the RTTY protocol is documented on the Wiki somewhere?
[17:50] <Randomskk> yea, though what you actually send is essentially
[17:51] <Randomskk> $$payload_name,message_number,HH:MM:SS,latitude,longitude,altitude,any,other,data*checksum
[17:51] <Randomskk> checksum is a crc16 ccitt but worry about that later, it will annoy you
[17:51] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol
[17:51] <Randomskk> http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol
[17:51] <Upu> evening
[17:51] <Randomskk> Upu beat me to it
[17:51] <Randomskk> hi
[17:51] <ejcweb> Thanks both :)
[17:52] <Randomskk> ejcweb: if you need to get me, privmsgs and highlights generate alerts to my phone when I'm not on irc, and otherwise alert me if I am, plus they get recorded so I'll reply asap
[17:53] <Randomskk> anyway bbl
[17:53] <ejcweb> Sure. Well I think that'll give me enough to go on for a while.
[17:53] <ejcweb> Bye.
[17:57] <fsphil> wow, ice out there is unreal -- one of the most interesting journeys home so far :)
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[18:13] <Upu> yeah it's not good
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[18:52] <jonsowman> hi ejcweb
[18:52] <jonsowman> sorry missed you earlier, was afk
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[19:01] Nick change: laurence_ -> Laurenceb_
[19:01] <Laurenceb_> hi
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[19:02] <fsphil> jonsowman, she's away again: http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=f70c6cce04a63ea17dd9d5b82157b8fbe8919f7a
[19:02] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:02] <natrium42> whoa
[19:02] <fsphil> g'day jcoxon
[19:03] <natrium42> hi all
[19:03] <fsphil> hullo natrium42
[19:03] <Upu> evening
[19:03] <Upu> interesting prediction
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[19:03] <ejcweb> hey jonsowman, don't worry. currently working away trying to figure out the finer details of 16 bit pcm sound arrays...
[19:03] <fsphil> indeed -- I didn't think a balloon could reach escape velocity :)
[19:03] <natrium42> it's just very improbable
[19:03] <natrium42> but can happen
[19:04] <Laurenceb_> lol
[19:04] <Laurenceb_> the prediction
[19:04] <Laurenceb_> it seems to be oriting
[19:04] <natrium42> maybe air molecules aligned a certain way so that the balloon passed through them without collision
[19:04] <natrium42> and then some air molecules were bombarding it from one side
[19:05] <natrium42> causing it to reach escape velocity
[19:06] <Laurenceb_> could happen
[19:06] <jonsowman> ejcweb: sounds fun
[19:06] <jonsowman> fsphil: cache cleared
[19:06] <jonsowman> see if that's any better :)
[19:15] <fsphil> ta
[19:18] <fsphil> sunday looks like fun: http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=e3d8e4afc788891b7fd6b627112a96cbc87fc159
[19:19] <jonsowman> good flight path
[19:20] <fsphil> and recoverable, there's a regular ferry to stranraer
[19:31] <fsphil> some pretty large peaks though
[19:42] Nick change: NigeyS -> Nigey|Away
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[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> is Laurenceb here?
[19:54] <Upu> fsphil interesting if you like hiking in Scotland
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> That bit is very picturesque
[19:55] <Upu> that said
[19:55] <Upu> I could get someone to collect that
[19:56] <Upu> http://www.cossescountryhouse.com/
[19:56] <Upu> I know the people who own that
[19:57] <fsphil> oh nice looking place
[19:57] <Upu> yeah it's lovely
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> Taken on the one day in 2008 when it was sunny.
[19:57] <fsphil> haha
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> (And no, it's not quite that bad)
[19:58] <Upu> hey when we went it only rained for 23 of the 24 hours
[19:58] <fsphil> I was in Edinburgh in the summer a few years back and nearly melted
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> At least the rain subdues the midges.
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> Scotland
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> the country of differences
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[19:59] <fsphil> indeed, cause I was there last year in October and froze :)
[19:59] <fsphil> they get a very nippy wind from the north sea
[19:59] <Upu> http://picasaweb.google.com/upuaut/201009Scotland#5520396125254207138 was a nice day you could see all the way to Ailsa Crag
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> my english teacher told me about Ireland being tricky too
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> they were hiking there with a grad class
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> first day was OK
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> second day was
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> well
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> rain and mud
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:00] <fsphil> the Atlantic keeps temperatures here fairly average
[20:00] <fsphil> but damp
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> do they really have coconuts on the south coast of Ireland?
[20:02] <Upu> yeah an lephrucorns
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[20:02] <fsphil> yea
[20:02] <fsphil> never been down that far but I've heard of them
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[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> we were told that in geography because the gulf stream runs past there
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:04] Nick change: Elwell_ -> Elwell
[20:05] <fsphil> we've a higher latitude than st.johns in canada - if it wasn't for the gulf stream we'd get worse weather than them :)
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[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> xD yeah
[20:09] <fsphil> I'm more tempted to do the long flight
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[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> a flight with low ascent rate?
[20:12] <fsphil> yea
[20:12] <fsphil> 2m/s
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:12] <fsphil> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=f70c6cce04a63ea17dd9d5b82157b8fbe8919f7a
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:14] <Lunar_Lander> that's surely worth it
[20:15] <Upu> 1.5
[20:15] <Upu> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=438688cbc1153fd12961ce258718a3689e620526
[20:15] <fsphil> 5 hour flight
[20:15] <fsphil> wow
[20:16] <Upu> you'd get that back too :)
[20:16] <fsphil> that's practically in your garden that :)
[20:16] <Upu> well if my garden is "Yorkshire" then fair shout
[20:16] <fsphil> such a slow ascent would probably burst above 30km
[20:17] <Lunar_Lander> is flight safety OK with a slow ascent?
[20:18] <fsphil> possibly
[20:19] <fsphil> at 2m/s it will take almost an hour to get above 7km
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[20:19] <fsphil> though it's a very small target -- pretty harmless
[20:20] <jcoxon> fsphil, you are falling into my sort of flight
[20:20] <fsphil> the long ranges ones? yea :)
[20:20] <Upu> you putting a camera in it ?
[20:21] <fsphil> debating it -- probably though
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> there was a flight of that kind in Germany in 2005
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> but by accident
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> they weighed it off with too less gas
[20:24] <jcoxon> wow, massive jump in my flickr views
[20:26] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[20:26] <jcoxon> fsphil, i'll try and use globaltuners to help out with tracking
[20:26] <jcoxon> you thinking sat or sun?
[20:27] <fsphil> Saturday is the safest I think
[20:27] <fsphil> if it bursts between 30km and 35km it should land on solid ground
[20:27] <jcoxon> okay
[20:27] <ejcweb> jcoxon: Out of curiosity, did the jump in views happen within the last 2 days or so?
[20:27] <jcoxon> ejcweb, today
[20:28] <jcoxon> normally i get about 20 and today 299
[20:28] <jcoxon> which is a jump for me
[20:28] <Upu> any idea why ?
[20:29] <ejcweb> I wondered if it was because of the recent Google HAB launches to publicise the Nexus S...
[20:29] <jcoxon> ejcweb, could be
[20:29] <fsphil> hmm, jcoxon I've got 69 views today -- up from 14
[20:30] <Upu> I've never looked at my stats
[20:30] <Upu> for the blog
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> Google launched balloons?
[20:30] <fsphil> but my most popular pics are nestbox pics
[20:30] <fsphil> nothing to do with hab
[20:30] <ejcweb> Lunar_Lander: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19871-google-goes-to-space-by-balloon.html
[20:30] <jcoxon> ejcweb, you were there first
[20:31] <ejcweb> I know. I like the think they 'stole' the idea from me. Especially as the Google guy quoted in the article emailed me after we did ours.
[20:31] <ejcweb> :P
[20:31] <jcoxon> !
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> thieves!
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> espionage!
[20:32] <ejcweb> I'll email them and say I'll stay quiet about it if they donate a Nexus S...
[20:32] <Lunar_Lander> yay!
[20:32] <jcoxon> did noisebrige get there first first
[20:32] <fsphil> lol
[20:32] <ejcweb> jcoxon: I believe so.
[20:34] <jcoxon> oh well
[20:34] <jcoxon> first in the UK!
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:35] <Lunar_Lander> you know what we can do?
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> the "First Stratosphere Balloon Launching in the Central African Republic"!
[20:36] <Upu> lol
[20:36] <ejcweb> Interestingly, they're using/used an Android for the ground-based decoding.
[20:36] <jcoxon> Lunar_Lander, hehe, that would be a challenge
[20:37] <jcoxon> i've done west africa launch
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> you did?
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> with that AMMA project?
[20:37] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:37] <Lunar_Lander> nice
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> I heard though that one balloon shelter exploded due to a hydrogen cylinder being handled wrongly
[20:38] <jcoxon> not when i was there
[20:38] <jcoxon> we only used He to my knowledge
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:38] <Lunar_Lander> I don't remember when that happened
[20:38] <jcoxon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/3290746460/in/set-72157614028027899/
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:40] <Upu> I should have put some LEDS on my board
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> the first balloons in Africa
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> how was working there?
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> very hot and humid?
[20:41] <jcoxon> yeah it was a bit warm
[20:41] <jcoxon> working with CNES was awesome
[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[20:42] <jcoxon> and learnt to launch ZP balloons with the Uni of Wyoming
[20:42] <jcoxon> of predictor fame
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/3289962501/in/set-72157614028027899/
[20:42] <Lunar_Lander> balloon failure?
[20:42] <jcoxon> no
[20:42] <jcoxon> rapid fire shutter of release
[20:42] <jcoxon> its just the He bubble
[20:43] <ejcweb> jcoxon: How did you come about being involved in that project?
[20:43] <jcoxon> Prof Pyle is the atmos chem prof and is a fellow at Catz
[20:43] <jcoxon> he invited me
[20:43] <jcoxon> after hearing about the first few launches
[20:44] <ejcweb> Cool. I think he was one of my lecturers last year actually.
[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> and what was the experiment?
[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> only meteo recordings?
[20:45] <jcoxon> Lunar_Lander, oh we were looking at halocarbons in the upper atmos
[20:45] <Lunar_Lander> ah nice
[20:46] <jcoxon> amma were looking at why the west african monsoon was reduced in recent years
[20:46] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[20:46] <jcoxon> and if that was related to drought
[20:46] <Lunar_Lander> was it?
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[20:47] <jcoxon> i think they are still working on that one
[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:48] <Lunar_Lander> and did they use grab samples or an spectrograph or GC?
[20:48] <jcoxon> GC
[20:49] <Lunar_Lander> ah cool
[20:49] <jcoxon> dual
[20:49] <jcoxon> impressive work
[20:49] <jcoxon> the techs got it down to 16kg
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> and the launch pictures look like it was like 5 minutes before rainstorm
[20:50] <jcoxon> yeah well it rained in the evenings
[20:50] <jcoxon> (hence the monsoon part)
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> now I used the big image
[20:50] <Lunar_Lander> the balloon was a simple one with no valve I see
[20:51] <jcoxon> there were multiple balloons
[20:52] <Lunar_Lander> ah OK
[20:53] <jcoxon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/3290662906/in/set-72157614028027899/
[20:53] <jcoxon> this one had a secondary balloon that lifted the payload just off the ground
[20:53] <jcoxon> to stop it dragging as the the main balloon was a released
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> I just thought it similar to Stratoscope II
[20:54] <Lunar_Lander> but that one had the launch balloon on top of the main balloon
[20:56] <jcoxon> Lunar_Lander, do you want a video of a launch (just found one)
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> I would like to have one
[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:57] <jcoxon> going to take a bit of time
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> no problem
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> maybe you can help me with something else in the meantime
[20:59] <Lunar_Lander> I think Laurenceb once posted a PDF with info about an electrostatic dust collector for a balloon
[20:59] <Lunar_Lander> do you know the link maybe?
[21:02] <jcoxon> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/projects:aerosol
[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[21:05] <jcoxon> Lunar_Lander, http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/5266574141/
[21:07] <Lunar_Lander> thank you very much jcoxon !
[21:12] <ejcweb> jcoxon: "This video was taken 8 minutes ago in Niger." !
[21:13] <jcoxon> hehe, indeed
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[21:18] <jcoxon> right time to fire up this gpsbee
[21:19] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> btw jcoxon
[21:27] <Lunar_Lander> I had repeatedly tried to contact african scientists
[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> they don't answer
[21:28] <fsphil> mental note: don't touch metal component immediately after soldering
[21:29] <Lunar_Lander> lol
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[21:32] <jcoxon> right this is how ublox gps modules should work
[21:32] <jcoxon> time in 20 seconds from cold start
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[21:44] <jcoxon> oooo HO-68 CW beacon on 435.790
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[22:07] <Darkside> heh
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[22:10] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
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[00:00] --- Fri Dec 17 2010