highaltitude.log.20101112

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[00:21] <juxta> ping Darkside
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[00:26] <Darkside> ping juxta
[00:27] <Darkside> pong*
[00:27] <juxta> how're you doing?
[00:27] <Darkside> not bad
[00:27] <Darkside> sup?
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[00:29] <juxta> just got an email from loney planet, they want to hold off till we get better weather and launch both payloads together. we'll still do a launch to test our gear though, so I wanted tyo see if you'd come along :)
[00:29] <Darkside> sure
[00:29] <Darkside> is the cutdown system ready?
[00:29] <Darkside> could test that :P
[00:29] <juxta> nah
[00:29] <juxta> waiting on RFMA to get back to me still
[00:29] <juxta> they're hopeless
[00:29] <Darkside> RFMA?
[00:30] <juxta> rfma.com.au
[00:30] <Darkside> what for?
[00:31] <juxta> rx modules
[00:31] <juxta> ping earthshine
[00:32] <Darkside> oh i thought you were using the repeater to receive the DTMF
[00:33] <juxta> we considered it
[00:33] <juxta> but we want it fully independant
[00:33] <juxta> independent* even
[00:34] <Darkside> mm
[00:36] <Darkside> so are we still looking at monday?
[00:37] <juxta> yep
[00:37] <juxta> we'll still do a launch to test the offline predictor
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[00:37] <juxta> just a 100gram balloon
[00:37] <juxta> will only get to 14km or so based on the last one we flew
[00:37] <juxta> (but that's fine)
[00:37] <Darkside> damn, the other guy who wanted to chase can't come monday :P
[00:37] <juxta> ah well
[00:38] <juxta> you can ride in my car
[00:38] <Darkside> i could have gone in his car, to add another chase car :P
[00:38] <Darkside> hehe ok
[00:38] <juxta> it'll just be the one car by the looks of thing, but I'll have a navigator too
[00:38] <juxta> you'll have the backseat to yourself
[00:38] <Darkside> :P
[00:38] <Darkside> matt won't be around?
[00:38] <juxta> matt will be in the front
[00:38] <juxta> hehe
[00:38] <Darkside> he isn't taking his 4wd?
[00:39] <juxta> oh
[00:39] <juxta> that matt
[00:39] <juxta> nah, he'll be working
[00:39] <Darkside> ahh
[00:39] <juxta> another matt will be in the front
[00:39] <Darkside> yes... weekday launches :P
[00:39] <juxta> we wont get to the landing site before the balloon does, no chance of that
[00:39] <juxta> so it'll be nice to see how well the predictor works
[00:39] <Darkside> heh yes
[00:40] <Darkside> what ascent rate do you expect?
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[00:40] <juxta> probably go for 5m/s or so
[00:40] <Darkside> ok
[00:40] <juxta> desc will be quite slow
[00:40] <juxta> maybe 3m/s
[00:40] <juxta> might not need to fly a chute
[00:41] <Darkside> just the radar reflector :P
[00:41] <juxta> the radar reflector will probably be enough
[00:41] <Darkside> you're going to fly the finy payload?
[00:41] <juxta> yeah
[00:41] <Darkside> cool
[00:43] <juxta> yeah I think the parachute will be left off, otherwise it'll come down too slowly & end up too far away
[00:44] <Darkside> how high is VK5GHs place?
[00:44] <Darkside> i'm playing with the predictor :P
[00:45] <Darkside> well thats a big straight line
[00:45] <Darkside> heh
[00:46] <juxta> about 300m
[00:46] <juxta> not that it matters
[00:46] <juxta> I dont think we'll launch there anyway
[00:46] <juxta> we might go to the old launch site
[00:46] <Darkside> oh?
[00:46] <juxta> its just around the corner
[00:46] <Darkside> ok, preduction still valid then
[00:47] <Darkside> http://habhub.org/predict/#!/uuid=6c788f1c60a70ac9e8a12094534b8217f21eb140
[00:47] <Darkside> not sure if thats right
[00:47] <Darkside> will have to gun it on the highway..
[00:48] <juxta> go for 5m/s desc
[00:49] <juxta> we dont mind if we get there in time
[00:49] <Darkside> also i think my time is off
[00:49] <juxta> we should recover it OK regardless
[00:49] <juxta> time seems OK
[00:49] <Darkside> lol 1 hour 17 minutes
[00:49] <Darkside> i guess you'll have a yagi?
[00:51] <juxta> got a few
[00:51] <Darkside> :P
[00:51] <juxta> what kind of cable is on your mag mount?
[00:53] <Darkside> RG58
[00:53] <Darkside> fits through doors easily :)
[00:53] <juxta> good-o
[00:53] <Darkside> being able to run a full test on teh day would be good :)
[00:53] <Darkside> backup system lol
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[01:11] Nick change: dave_ -> stilldavid
[01:11] <stilldavid> anyone here familiar with aprs in the us?
[01:12] <SpeedEvil> There are people who have done APRS based payloads here
[01:12] <SpeedEvil> not me though
[01:12] <juxta> hey stilldavid
[01:12] <juxta> we flew APRS recently, but not in the US
[01:12] <stilldavid> ah, well, any info you can share...
[01:13] <stilldavid> I've seen it used in a lot of payloads and am curious about it
[01:13] <stilldavid> like... how does it work? :P
[01:13] <juxta> oh right
[01:13] <juxta> ah - well, what you've probably seen used is the public APRS network
[01:13] <stilldavid> I gather that there's a network of receivers operated by various groups, and it operates on one frequency
[01:13] <stilldavid> yeah, that's what I'm curious about.
[01:13] <juxta> yes - it's operated by the amateur radio community
[01:14] <stilldavid> on one frequency... so how do you know when you can transmit?
[01:14] <juxta> if you have an amateur radio license of the appropriate class you can use it for packet data - generally people use it for telemetry
[01:14] <juxta> you don't - the system is designed to work around collisions
[01:14] <stilldavid> dare I ask how?
[01:15] <juxta> retries :)
[01:15] <stilldavid> if I blast my position on the correct freq say, once a minute, will people get mad?
[01:15] <juxta> in the USA it's somewhat tricky
[01:15] <juxta> I would certainly get in touch with the local hams and speak to them about it, i'll elaborate;
[01:16] <juxta> aprs works on a network of 'digipeaters' basically receive sites that will hear your transmission, and re-broadcast it
[01:16] <juxta> that way it will bounce around the APRS network until it hits an i-gate, which is an internet connected station, and it'll make its way onto the internet
[01:17] <juxta> the trouble is in the USA there happen to be lots and lots of digipeaters - as in hundreds
[01:17] <stilldavid> so very cool that this sort of network exists...
[01:17] <juxta> as you're up in a balloon you'll have massive rangem, and you'll hit heaps and heaps of them
[01:17] <stilldavid> I've seen maps of where some of them are.
[01:17] <juxta> they'll all start relaying the packet around and cause a packetstorm on the network
[01:17] <stilldavid> I was thinking about a ~300mW radio on 2M
[01:17] <stilldavid> it seems to be about the standard.
[01:18] <stilldavid> not sure about interval and such though
[01:18] <juxta> you'll need to be very careful with the path selections you make, or you'll smash the network and nothing will work for anybody else
[01:19] <stilldavid> hmm. well, this is still just a pipe dream at the moment. not sure where I'm even launching from or anything
[01:19] <stilldavid> ZP, so it might be up a while if I can manage a proper ballast
[01:19] <juxta> ahh right, awesome :)
[01:19] <juxta> have you got your license?
[01:19] <stilldavid> I'm hoping for >24 hrs, would be cool to launch in the morning and get 2 full days
[01:19] <stilldavid> KI6YMZ
[01:20] <juxta> cool, you should be ok then, hehe
[01:20] <juxta> best to speak to whoever runs the APRS nodes near you though
[01:20] <stilldavid> I've got another 1200 gram latex balloon to do a telemetry test
[01:20] <stilldavid> will probably drop in an NTX2 for good measure as well
[01:21] <juxta> regarding the TX collisions - some APRS systems are able to listen and make sure the frequency is not in use
[01:21] <stilldavid> does the cu predictor do zp stuff as well? I'm really curious where to launch from
[01:21] <juxta> I think float is being worked on
[01:21] <juxta> but not quite ready yet
[01:22] <juxta> jcoxon would be the man to ask :)
[01:22] <stilldavid> that brings up another question about cut-down. Ideally it could be done from the ground.... what sort of receiving systems have people used?
[01:22] <stilldavid> oh, believe me I've looked at everything he's written on the wiki/flickr/anywhere
[01:22] <juxta> hehe
[01:22] <juxta> he's planning a floater launch this weekend
[01:22] <juxta> stilldavid, there's some info on APRS and balloons etc here: http://www.aprs.net/vm/DOS/AIRCRAFT.HTM
[01:23] <juxta> what they say about paths & no more than 1 hop is going to be pretty much essential in the US i would imagine
[01:23] <stilldavid> "UNPROTO PATH" -- what?
[01:23] <rjharrison_> Hey juxta
[01:23] <rjharrison_> Hows uit
[01:23] <rjharrison_> how is it going
[01:23] <juxta> heya rjharrison_ , going well, how about you? :)
[01:24] <rjharrison_> Been a bit under the weather here in the UK for the last few months but feeling a bit better now
[01:24] <juxta> stilldavid, the path settings control what digipeaters do with your packets
[01:25] <stilldavid> cool, just getting to that part. I'll read up and ping if I have more questions
[01:25] <juxta> you really dont want to have them all relaying your data or you'll wipe out the network
[01:25] <rjharrison_> Hopefully have some launches on the the horizon. Though I have to say wx is not good ATM
[01:25] <juxta> ah, glad to hear things are picking up a bit rjharrison_ - wx is being a bit unpredictable here too
[01:26] <juxta> 30 degrees here yesterday I think, raining today
[01:26] <rjharrison_> hehe I heard to had a bit of a drive the other day :)
[01:26] <juxta> no worries stilldavid
[01:26] <juxta> ah yes, i'll grab a photo of the engine mount I broke too ;p
[01:26] <juxta> stilldavid, you're with sparkfun, right?
[01:26] <stilldavid> yeah.
[01:26] <juxta> awesome :)
[01:27] <juxta> did you guys get the last payload back in the end?
[01:27] <stilldavid> well, I work here. I do this on my own time... I'm a web programmer, not an engineer or anything fancy
[01:27] <stilldavid> that was Nate's and it's still MIA.
[01:27] <stilldavid> that's what he gets for not listening to me :P
[01:27] <juxta> ah right - damn, haha
[01:27] <stilldavid> I still kind of have a sliver of hope that it'll show up one of these days
[01:27] <juxta> you're up pretty late rjharrison_
[01:27] <stilldavid> it's got his number on the outside and whatnot
[01:28] <juxta> hopefully, yeah
[01:28] <rjharrison_> Yep woke up due to the wind, thought i'd come and have a play
[01:28] <juxta> wow, must be windy
[01:29] <juxta> i sent you an email a little while ago - what's the news on the car front?
[01:34] <juxta> SpeedEvil, was it you that linked to an IMU board on ebay recently?
[01:35] <SpeedEvil> yes
[01:36] <juxta> do you still have the link handy?
[01:37] <SpeedEvil> 2010-11-08.004247+0000GMT.txt:(12:59:05 AM) SpeedEvil: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CHR6d-IMU-6-axis-3x-Gyro-3x-Accel-w-Filtering-/130437514407?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e5eae84a7
[01:37] <juxta> brilliant, thanks :)
[01:37] <juxta> rjharrison_, still about?
[01:39] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-iMU-T2-USB-VIBRATING-MINI-AUDIO-SPEAKER-iPHONE-/130448559153?pt=UK_Mobiles_Accessories_RL&hash=item1e5f570c31
[01:39] <SpeedEvil> I keep wondering about getting one of those
[01:40] <SpeedEvil> for doing ultrasonic welding with
[01:40] <juxta> naturally ;p
[01:40] <juxta> how does that work SpeedEvil?
[01:41] <SpeedEvil> The magnostrictive alloy that they use is the same one that's used for sonar transmitters, and ultrasonic welders
[01:42] <SpeedEvil> I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terfenol-D
[01:42] <SpeedEvil> The alloy has the highest magnetostriction of any alloy, up to 0.002 m/m at saturation; it expands and contracts in a magnetic field.
[01:44] <juxta> interesting - what's its role in the speaker?
[01:44] <juxta> oh right, I see
[01:45] <juxta> that produces the vibrations and hence the sound
[01:45] <SpeedEvil> yep
[01:45] <juxta> i imagine it's not particularly suited to producing sound?
[01:46] <SpeedEvil> It produces a tiny stroke, but a really high force
[01:46] <SpeedEvil> if you couple this with a massive stiff diaphram, it can be quite efficient
[01:52] <juxta> that sounds quite nifty, i'd like to see it in action :)
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[02:03] <jkomniar> Hey Natrium42, you around?
[02:11] <natrium42> hi
[02:12] <jkomniar> hey - I don't know if you'll remember me, but I'm a Waterloo local who emailed you about a year ago with some questions about you balloon launch.
[02:13] <jkomniar> it's been a while, but we're finally ready to go and hoping to launch up near Goderich in the next couple weeks, weather permitting.
[02:13] <natrium42> cool, what's the payload?
[02:14] <jkomniar> I was wondering though, if you had any good resources re: legality of launch in Canada? I've googled around and found some bits and pieces here in there but I'm still not convinced I have the whole picture. Did you notify anyone of your launch, and if so, who?
[02:14] <jkomniar> Payload is just a simple Cannon camera CHDK'd to take pics for us, and an OpenTracker+/radio to relay location telemetry back to us via APRS.
[02:14] <natrium42> i didn't, but then got contacted by transport canada
[02:15] <natrium42> one sec, will link you to rules
[02:15] <jkomniar> thanks!
[02:15] <natrium42> http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/PART6/602.htm#602_42
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[02:15] <natrium42> t's not clear what "gas-carrying capacity means"... For example, the Kaymont KCI 1200 are specified to 2.99 m^3, which is below 3.256 m^3. But they can be filled beyond the spec...
[02:16] <natrium42> getting permission takes 1-2 months....
[02:17] <jkomniar> So they actually contacted you? Like ... in a bad way? :)
[02:23] <natrium42> more like, made me aware of the rules
[02:23] <natrium42> :P
[02:23] <jkomniar> So I take it you didn't contact a local airport and issue a NOTAM then?
[02:24] <natrium42> nope
[02:24] <Darkside> juxta: oh man
[02:24] <Darkside> i can stalk grant
[02:24] <Darkside> http://users.picknowl.com.au/~wavetel/aprs/adel2.htm
[02:24] <jkomniar> How did they even know it was you then? Were they monitoring your radio transmissions from the craft?
[02:24] <natrium42> my site got pretty popular
[02:24] <natrium42> i think somebody must have complained to them
[02:25] <jkomniar> are you still in the area?
[02:26] <natrium42> yeah
[02:26] <jkomniar> UW? or out of school now?
[02:26] <natrium42> doing masters at UW
[02:27] <jkomniar> You ever go to any of the KWARC meetings? I just met a guy there last week that's doing his masters there too... would be freaky if that was you :)
[02:28] <natrium42> i went twice over a year ago...
[02:28] <natrium42> still need to get my license
[02:28] <jkomniar> Although, in retrospect, you'd probably have mentioned the fact that you did the HALO launch when I was talking to you :)
[02:29] <natrium42> :)
[02:29] <natrium42> btw, i have a satellite tracker that you can borrow
[02:29] <natrium42> as a backup
[02:29] <jkomniar> Got any more launches in the works these days? or too busy w/ school?
[02:29] <natrium42> yeah, very busy time right now :S
[02:30] <natrium42> i was planning to do a launch with a 434MHz transmitter on board
[02:30] <natrium42> 10mW
[02:30] <jkomniar> Forgive the ignorance, but in what context do you mean by satellite tracker? Just wondering why that'd be of use to me ...
[02:31] <natrium42> it's a SPOT (findmespot.com)
[02:31] <jkomniar> We have a 0.8W radio on-board the HAVEN-1 payload, connected to an OpenTracker+ and a Trimble Copernicus GPS
[02:31] <jkomniar> OH, ok.. got it. I thought you were referring to a "mobile" radio receiver kinda thing.
[02:31] <natrium42> cool, you'll be fine
[02:32] <natrium42> it can be used as a backup to your radio
[02:32] <natrium42> not really necessary
[02:32] <jkomniar> We considered those SPOTs originally when were determine how we'd find the craft... didn't like that it wasn't able to operate at altitude though.. didn't want to be blind all the way until the end of the landing.
[02:33] <jkomniar> We're also right on the border of our weight limit at this point to stay within that 115 ft^3 of lifting gas :)
[02:33] <natrium42> that can be fixed --> http://natrium42.com/projects/spot/
[02:33] <natrium42> the biggest problem is that the updates are infrequent
[02:33] <natrium42> every 15 mins at best
[02:34] <natrium42> jkomniar, hehe, cool
[02:34] <natrium42> i guess you can argue how the rule can be interpreted then
[02:34] <natrium42> launching from USA is another option
[02:34] <natrium42> no need to get any permission there
[02:35] <jkomniar> Considered that too but were warry of crossing the border with a trunk full of gas tanks and homebrew electronics ;-)
[02:35] <jkomniar> We all prefer our free time with 0% federal jail involved
[02:35] <natrium42> that's ideal, yes
[02:36] <jkomniar> although, it'd be awesome to launch in Michigan, float over the lake, and park this puppy right in our backyard.
[02:36] <jkomniar> Save the drive all the way out to Goderich
[02:37] <jkomniar> We're considering launching from here: http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.885212,-81.703606&spn=0.050911,0.080509&t=h&z=14 But not sure about how to get permission to launch from this abandoned airstrip
[02:38] <natrium42> how do you know it's abandoned?
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[02:39] <jkomniar> One of the guys on the mission's parents live in Goderich so he's out in that area often and knows it's abandoned now. Said they'd have plowed it back into farmland by now if it wasn't so expensive to rip up all the concrete airstrip.
[02:39] <jkomniar> If you look on Google Streetview, you can kinda tell too... doesn't look like too much is going on over there.
[02:39] <natrium42> nice find then :)
[02:39] <SpeedEvil> Is there a govenemental registry of who owns the land that you could consult?
[02:40] <natrium42> jkomniar, we made friends with a farmer near Lucknow, ON
[02:40] <jkomniar> Potentially, it's just hard to even describe WHERE it is other than in pictures via google sat view. THere's no address on the property to look up.
[02:40] <natrium42> he was nice enough to provide wifi too
[02:41] <jkomniar> But there is a farmhouse right in front.. maybe I can call them up and ask.. I'm sure they'd know what the deal is with the giant disused airstrip in the backyard was.
[02:41] <jkomniar> Hell, maybe it's on their land :)
[02:41] <jkomniar> Interesting - I thought Lucknow was a family farm or something ...
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[02:43] <jkomniar> Or that you just picked it because of the name as a good luck charm :)
[02:43] <natrium42> :)
[02:43] <jkomniar> It'd be sweet to launch in Lucknow and land in Dorking ... I think that'd be pretty fitting for this little project ;-)
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[02:49] <jkomniar> natrium42: so what's your masters work in?
[02:53] <natrium42> image processing
[02:53] <jkomniar> CS?
[02:53] <natrium42> yep
[02:53] <jkomniar> Do you know Craig Kaplan?
[02:55] <natrium42> yes, i have taken a couple of courses with him, why?
[02:56] <jkomniar> He's a friend of mine ... lives around the block from me. Used to go rock climbing with him.
[02:56] <jkomniar> Was just curious if you'd ever crossed his path being into image processing stuff.
[02:56] <natrium42> indeed i have :)
[02:56] <jkomniar> I don't remember exactly what his focus is, but I know it's in the area of digital image/pattern processing
[02:57] <natrium42> he's a cool guy
[02:57] <natrium42> he's into islamic star patterns
[02:58] <jkomniar> yup
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[03:25] <Darkside> juxta: Adrian's away, but his car is still talking to the APRS network :P
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[05:07] <juxta> yeah it always is Darkside
[05:09] <Darkside> haha
[05:09] <Darkside> you should get one in your car :P
[05:09] <Darkside> then we can stalk you
[05:09] <juxta> hurrah being stalked
[05:09] <Darkside> :P
[05:10] <Darkside> or you could just use google latitude :P
[05:11] <juxta> I'll pass :)
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[06:08] <Darkside> juxta: what time were you planning on launching on monday?
[06:10] <shenki> Darkside: 3am
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[06:12] <Darkside> ..
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[07:06] <juxta> Darkside, around midday
[07:06] <juxta> Darkside, that icom r10 i bought was a bit dodgy
[07:06] <juxta> just fixed it, woo
[07:07] <Darkside> nice
[07:07] <juxta> just a dry solder joint :)
[07:07] <Darkside> midday should be fine, i'm still working on getting my shift off too..
[07:07] <juxta> alrighty, let me know how you get on
[07:08] <Darkside> i doubt we'd be back in the city by 6pm, would we :P
[07:09] <juxta> probably unlikely, yeah
[07:15] Nick change: kd0mto -> DagoREd
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[08:17] Topic changed on #highaltitude by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk | - ATLAS Launch 13/11/10 from Churchill College, Cambridge
[08:17] <jonsowman> urgh, seperator fail
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[08:18] Topic changed on #highaltitude by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk - ATLAS Launch 13/11/10 from Churchill College, Cambridge
[08:18] <jonsowman> better.
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[10:33] <Futurity> Morning everyone. Does anyone know if the paper model plane experiment I saw in the news today, was the Steve's launch on Monday?
[10:34] <Laurenceb> that was theregister.co.uk aka"El Reg"
[10:34] <Laurenceb> and tbh im not convinved it flew
[10:36] <Laurenceb> roof got ripped off my shed last night :(
[10:36] <russss> it was 2 weeks ago
[10:36] <russss> as well
[10:37] <Laurenceb> need to make a new roof today before it rains again
[10:37] <Laurenceb> and plywood and roofing felt is expensive :(
[10:37] <Futurity> Thanks for the update. Was it a Cambridge launch do you know?
[10:38] <Laurenceb> no, in spain
[10:38] <Futurity> that explains the terrain in the picture ;)
[10:40] <fsphil> it was like falling with style, but without the style ;-)
[10:40] <Laurenceb> *tumbling randomly
[10:41] <fsphil> still cool having a second module separating from the payload though
[10:41] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:41] <fsphil> and have it recovered
[10:41] <Laurenceb> hah neighbours shed got shredded
[10:41] Action: Laurenceb evil laughter
[10:41] <fsphil> muhaha
[10:41] <fsphil> oddly no damage here, despite the ridiculous wind
[10:42] <Laurenceb> got loads of papers + some expensive pcs etc stored in there, so i need to get it watertight before it rains
[10:42] Action: Laurenceb is waiting for builders merchant to deliver
[10:42] <fsphil> yea - what's it like over there atm? not a cloud in the sky here
[10:43] <Laurenceb> pretty similar here - theres rain forcast later tho
[10:43] <fsphil> yar, same story
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[10:45] <rjharrison_> Futurity no that is nothing to do with us
[10:47] <Hibby> can't see any of this bad weather forecast for glasgow area...
[10:48] <Hibby> expecting 20mph
[11:08] <Laurenceb> who going to be at the launch tomorrow?
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[11:27] <Laurenceb> http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2010/11/11/stoning_tweet_arrest/
[11:27] <Laurenceb> wtf
[11:28] <Laurenceb> another reason to stay off twitter
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[11:32] <Randomskk> anyone have any good ideas for mechanically and thermally connecting some small squares of copper to a larger square of copper, with the small ones perpendicular to the big one, in a waterproof fashion?
[11:33] <GW8RAK> Soldering?
[11:33] <SpeedEvil> welding
[11:33] <GW8RAK> For more strength, brazing?
[11:34] <Randomskk> needs very little mechanical strength really
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> hot-melt glue
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> actually - that fails thermally.
[11:34] <Randomskk> might need a bit of high temperature not-melting-ness though
[11:34] <Randomskk> yea
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> Unless you use silver loaded hot-melt
[11:34] <Randomskk> that could work
[11:34] <GW8RAK> silver solder
[11:34] <Randomskk> or maybe some kind of conductive epoxy
[11:34] <Randomskk> all I have for soldering with is my normal iron
[11:35] <Randomskk> and the cusf one
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> If they made silver loaded hot-melt, I'd use it for most everything.
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: blowtorch
[11:35] <Randomskk> could do with one of those
[11:35] <Randomskk> maybe pick one up and some thick solder
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> plumbers flux, some thick solder, and a gas torch
[11:35] <GW8RAK> How about one of those little flame jet things?
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> depending on the size, maybe
[11:35] <GW8RAK> Plenty of local heat.
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> how big
[11:36] <Randomskk> 25mm a side
[11:36] <Randomskk> so like, small
[11:36] <GW8RAK> Put the large square of copper on the stove top to make sure it doesn't take all the heat away from the bit being soldered.
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> At that size, yeah - it's easier
[11:37] <GW8RAK> Are you making a shielded box?
[11:38] <Randomskk> nearly but it's actually open topped and isn't really for rf shielding
[11:38] <Randomskk> else I'd probably just get an aluminium enclosure from maplins rather than all this fuss
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> just make it out of lots of layers of Al foil
[11:39] <Randomskk> needs to conduct quite a lot of heat
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> Al is lots better from a specific conduction POV
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> Anyway - at that size, any of the mentioned ways above should work
[11:40] <Randomskk> okay
[11:40] <Randomskk> will try to find a blowtorch and some solder someplace. and work out how to hold it in place while doing so
[11:41] <SpeedEvil> what's this for?
[11:41] <Randomskk> heat transfer to a heatsink
[11:41] Action: SpeedEvil looks again at screwfix, trying to work out the want/need dilemma.
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[11:52] <Randomskk> http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Soldering-Equipment/Gas-Soldering-Irons/Microjet-flame-gun/66944 maybe
[11:53] <Randomskk> itty bitty flame gun
[11:55] <fsphil> neat
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> Or 3 quid from dealextreme
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> It's just a lighter.
[11:57] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1455
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[12:06] <shenki> TPRO/libogc/lib/wii/. thanks mvanbem for compilation trick ...
[12:06] <shenki> oops, excuse me
[12:11] <GW8RAK> SpeedEvil - quote "It also makes a handy alternative than pepper sprays as a body guard."
[12:15] <Laurenceb> who going to be at the launch tomorrow?
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[12:21] <NigeySWales> afternoon all
[12:21] <NigeySWales> this weather truly sucks!
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[12:54] <GW8RAK> Randomskk - I've just remembered that I've got some spare heatsinks at home. If you want one, let me know.
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[13:10] <Laurenceb> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:chipcon_cc1020_software_define_radio
[13:10] <Laurenceb> a bit more info and updated code there now
[13:12] <Laurenceb> that png is too big lol
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:16] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[13:26] <GW8RAK> The replacement element for my Yagi has arrived, so should have 21 ele up for the launch.
[13:39] <Randomskk> GW8RAK: thanks, but it's okay - I've got the heatsink (big, fan cooled one) but just need more copper to interface with it well
[13:41] <GW8RAK> Hi power transmitter?
[13:42] <jonsowman> Randomskk: do you want ferret now?
[13:42] <jonsowman> so I don't get distracted by it...
[13:42] <Randomskk> go for it
[13:42] <Randomskk> GW8RAK: 100W peltier heatpump
[13:43] <SpeedEvil> You know about recommended clamping pressure, and coefficients of performance?
[13:44] <SpeedEvil> Also that you don't PWM peltier?
[13:46] <Randomskk> aren't readily able to clamp to any pressure
[13:46] <Randomskk> constant power supply though, no pwm
[13:46] <Randomskk> have done far too much on coefficients of performance for heat pumps
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[13:47] <Randomskk> have got thermal compound between it and thick copper on either side though
[13:47] <SpeedEvil> recommended clamping pressure on all I've seen is around 10kg/cm^2
[13:48] <Randomskk> that's a lot of pressure
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> yes
[13:48] <Randomskk> why?
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> IIRC
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> I would guess lateral forces are bad.
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[13:57] <russss> I have some 400W peltiers that I still need to find a use for.
[13:57] <russss> they're pretty crazy
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[14:13] <fsphil> I've a peltier around here somewhere but I could never get it to run for more than a few minutes
[14:15] <Randomskk> couldn't get it to run, or couldn't get it to stay cold for long?
[14:16] <fsphil> stay cold
[14:18] <fsphil> at the time I blamed the condensation that formed on it
[14:18] <russss> if the hot side gets too hot, the peltier effect breaks down
[14:18] <russss> and it just becomes an expensive heater
[14:18] <Darkside> i mounted a heatsink and fan to the hot side od mine
[14:18] <fsphil> I had a nice big heatsink on the hot side
[14:18] <Darkside> and used it as an ice maker
[14:18] <Darkside> lol
[14:18] <Randomskk> it needs quite significant heatsinking to stay cold
[14:18] <Darkside> mine didn't have any 'load' on the cold side, so it worked pretty well
[14:18] <fsphil> it was one of those silly big fan heatsinks for passive cpu cooling
[14:19] <Randomskk> fan, passive
[14:19] <Darkside> mine was only a 45W or something
[14:19] <russss> I was thinking about stacking mine and seeing how cold I could get them, but when I did the maths it was quite unfeasible.
[14:19] <fsphil> this here: http://www.quietpc.com/nz/images/p4flowercub1.jpg
[14:19] <fsphil> fan shaped :)
[14:20] <Darkside> peltiers are really only good for making drink coolers :P
[14:20] <fsphil> (minus the fan in that picture)
[14:20] <russss> the 400W ones can move ~100W of heat I think.
[14:20] <fsphil> My plan was to cool a camera for astro stuffs
[14:20] <russss> so you need 5 of them to remove the output heat generated by one.
[14:20] <russss> and so on
[14:20] <Darkside> hmm that could work
[14:21] <fsphil> could they be used to condense helium?
[14:21] <Darkside> they don get that cold
[14:21] <Darkside> lol
[14:21] <russss> fsphil: well that was my plan.
[14:21] <russss> there are some commercial peltier stacks
[14:21] <Randomskk> they can get that cold
[14:21] <Darkside> >_>
[14:21] <Darkside> wow
[14:21] <Randomskk> they can get very, very, very cold
[14:21] <russss> the other option is to throttle back the peltiers further down the stack so they don't run so hot.
[14:22] <russss> the max temperature drop you can get off one is like 50 degrees C I think
[14:22] <russss> so you only need 4 to condense liquid nitrogen, theoretically.
[14:22] <Darkside> haha
[14:23] <Darkside> ok, sleep tiem for me
[14:23] <Darkside> 1am...
[14:23] <russss> or at least, a stack 4 deep. How many you need on each layer is more tricky.
[14:23] <Randomskk> indeed
[14:23] <Randomskk> if each takes 100W electrical energy, transfers 20W of heat through, then the first layer is a single peltier with 120W coming out the hot side
[14:23] <fsphil> that's gonna consume a fair few watts
[14:23] <russss> yep
[14:23] <Randomskk> to move that you need five on the next layer, each also giving out 120W for 600W out of that layer
[14:24] <Randomskk> to get rid of 600W on the third layer you need 30
[14:24] <Randomskk> which is going to generate 3600W...
[14:24] <russss> you can throttle peltiers back by controlling the current though. So I wonder if you can get a watt or two of cooling.
[14:24] <Randomskk> then for your final 50C drop you need 180 of them, which give out 21600W
[14:24] <russss> heheh
[14:25] <Randomskk> in total you've got 1+5+30+180=216 100W peltiers
[14:25] <Randomskk> 21600W supply power, which is 1800A at 12V
[14:25] <Randomskk> and a 21.6kW heatsink at th eend
[14:25] <Randomskk> indeed, dropping the rate down to a couple of watts is a much better idea
[14:26] <russss> apparently a cryocooler is a more sensible way of liquefying gases at home.
[14:26] <russss> but I have yet to locate a suitable one.
[14:27] <russss> http://benkrasnow.blogspot.com/2008/08/diy-liquid-nitrogen-generator.html
[14:29] <russss> apparently cryocoolers are just stirling engines though, so maybe I could build one...
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[15:27] <bradluyster> Cool! White Star has some Internet media coverage: http://bit.ly/aRkYgn
[15:27] Nick change: bradluyster -> zuph
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[16:40] <Randomskk> haha success
[16:41] <Randomskk> a few lines of python and fldigi's xmlrpc and now I have a control loop that retunes my radio to keep the audio frequency midpoint at 1500hz
[16:41] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:42] <Randomskk> so the afc keeps track of the signal as best it can
[16:42] <SpeedEvil> Will it track signals that cross the desired one?
[16:42] <Randomskk> not my business
[16:42] <Randomskk> I just compare dial frequency to AFC's current frequency
[16:42] <Randomskk> and try to keep the result at 1500 by retuning the radio
[16:42] <Randomskk> so, whatever the AFC follows
[16:43] <Randomskk> (also, only retune the radio at a speed the afc can follow)
[16:43] <Randomskk> (which makes it a little bit non linear)
[16:43] <Randomskk> (but then nothing is linear irl, right)
[16:44] <russss> nice!
[16:44] <Randomskk> now putting it outside in the cold
[16:44] <Randomskk> crystal should cool down, so the frequency will drift, but then it should retune to follow
[16:45] <Randomskk> if this works and then combines with the trackotron for autorotating yagis, tracking will literally consist of going for a pint
[16:45] <Randomskk> and it's returned my radio by about 300hz already to keep it in the middle
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[16:46] <Randomskk> my first attempt was unstable: https://randomskk.net/u/fldigi.png
[16:46] <Randomskk> then I applied some control theory and now it's stable
[16:46] <Randomskk> yay, control theory
[16:46] <Randomskk> 400hz of retuning
[16:47] <jonsowman> nicely done
[16:47] <Randomskk> still going too, but the output is still dead centre and hasn't drifted more than 50hz or so
[16:47] <Randomskk> I could probably tweak it a bit to stay even closer but it might not be needed
[16:47] <Randomskk> think I can just give this to matheson instead of those tripos questions?
[16:47] <jonsowman> hehe
[16:47] <jonsowman> I wish
[16:47] <Randomskk> seriously though this is both way cooler and way more useful
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:48] <jgrahamc> What's the trackotron? I was wondering about mounting a yagi on a powered telescope mount for automatic tracking. Is it that?
[16:48] <Randomskk> jgrahamc: yes
[16:48] <russss> I'd like to see the code
[16:48] <jgrahamc> Randomskk: cool. Do you have pictures of that somewhere?
[16:48] <Randomskk> russss: http://pastie.org/1293053
[16:48] <russss> jgrahamc: in reality you can receive pretty well with a decent omni antenna though
[16:49] <russss> Randomskk: oh, the XML-RPC API is pretty good then
[16:49] <Randomskk> jgrahamc: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4082160869/
[16:49] <jgrahamc> Sure, but there'd be something wonderful about watching the yagi pick up GPS information and reposition itself.
[16:49] <Randomskk> russss: it's pretty fantastic
[16:49] <Randomskk> how easy is s.main.set_frequency()
[16:50] <jgrahamc> Randomskk: that's very nice.
[16:50] <Randomskk> I mean it could do with a little tidying up and commenting and I'm not entirely sure the min/max change crap is needed
[16:50] <Randomskk> but it's 21 lines in total, took a few minutes to write and works
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[16:50] <Randomskk> <3 python
[16:50] <russss> Randomskk: although there's no reason why that couldn't be integrated into fldigi
[16:50] <Randomskk> very true
[16:50] Action: russss will try that next time he tracks a launch
[16:51] <russss> which won't be tomorrow unfortunately
[16:51] <Randomskk> I mean I could probably do that in c++ and put it in dl-fldigi
[16:52] <jgrahamc> What radio are you using?
[16:52] <Randomskk> it totally has some steady state error, perhaps I should add an integral gain
[16:52] <Randomskk> jgrahamc: icom ic7000
[16:52] <Randomskk> but many radios are compatible with hamlib
[16:52] <Randomskk> the python script is just talking to fldigi
[16:53] <jgrahamc> Those do look pretty awesome. Now where's that £1,000 I left lying around.
[16:53] <Randomskk> :P
[16:53] <Randomskk> quite
[16:53] <russss> yeah, my FT-817 was a bit cheaper than that and fldigi controls it fine (using a £5 cable from hong kong)
[16:54] <Randomskk> I'm using a FTDI breakout board and a short 3.5mm mono cable
[16:54] <Randomskk> you just.. it's bizarre
[16:54] <Randomskk> you hook tx and rx together to the tip
[16:54] <Randomskk> and gnd to the sleeve
[16:54] <Randomskk> and that's it
[16:54] <Randomskk> all this crap online has tonnes of transistors, diodes, resistors, capacitors, random crap
[16:54] <Randomskk> totally pointless
[16:54] <russss> heh
[16:54] <Randomskk> hams will massively overcomplicate anything
[16:55] <Randomskk> or the icom cable, costs £££, god knows what it does, massive thing
[16:55] <Randomskk> this works flawlessly
[16:55] <jgrahamc> I have an FTDI USB cable that just gives you serial. Really nice. They stuck the FTDI chip inside the USB connector.
[16:55] <Randomskk> yea, I have/had something like that once
[16:56] <jgrahamc> Huh. Didn't realize that the IC7000 has built in RTTY decoding.
[16:56] <Randomskk> never used it
[16:57] <russss> IC7000 has everything up to and including the kitchen sink
[16:57] <Randomskk> except an internal battery pack
[16:57] <jgrahamc> BTW Thanks to folks here for answering my questions about the full ham license. Ordered the recommended book and will study for it.
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[17:25] <Randomskk> okay, done better
[17:25] <Randomskk> https://gist.github.com/674384
[17:25] <Randomskk> with comments and stuff
[17:25] <Randomskk> 57 lines :|
[17:25] <Randomskk> it totally works though
[17:28] <fsphil> nice, should make this an option on fldigi
[17:28] <Randomskk> I know right
[17:28] <Randomskk> maybe I'll do it in c++ one of these days
[17:28] Action: Randomskk puts it on his list
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[17:42] <m1x10> Hi all
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> Hi!
[17:43] <m1x10> How are you SpeedEvil?
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> I am tidying up today.
[17:43] <SpeedEvil> I now have one box of screwdrivers, not 14 scattered around the house with various tools in.
[17:44] <fsphil> g'day m1x10
[17:45] <m1x10> Hi fsphil
[17:45] <m1x10> got 3 days off
[17:45] <m1x10> im home
[17:45] <fsphil> excellent
[17:45] <m1x10> just took a long hot shower
[17:45] <m1x10> :)
[17:47] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/autotune_plot.png
[17:47] <Randomskk> :D
[17:47] <m1x10> Hi Randomskk
[17:47] <fsphil> haha, graphs rule
[17:48] <Randomskk> the audio signal is being kept to 1500 +/- 10Hz even as the transmitted signal varies by like several hundred hz
[17:48] <Randomskk> the axis on the y1 is a bit shit
[17:48] <russss> good graph
[17:49] <Randomskk> silly gnuplot
[17:50] <russss> I've been trying to wean myself off gnuplot and onto matplotlib for my ad hoc graphing needs
[17:50] <russss> but gnuplot is simpler.
[17:50] <Randomskk> same but I keep forgetting to do that
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[17:54] <Randomskk> aha
[17:54] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/autotune_plot.png
[17:54] <Randomskk> way better
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> Ban autotune!
[17:55] <russss> heh
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> Looking good!
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> That's what - sticking it in freezer?
[17:56] <Randomskk> nah, out the window into the cold, then back inside on a radiator
[17:56] <Randomskk> could have done with leaving it on the radiator for longer really
[17:56] <Randomskk> it drifted another couple hundred hz
[17:56] <Randomskk> was getting bored though
[17:56] <SpeedEvil> ah
[17:56] <Randomskk> still some nice exponentials there
[17:57] <Randomskk> and more importantly a pretty flat green line, especially considering that the axis is 200hz total
[17:57] <Randomskk> and the audio passband is about 3khz :P
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> You don't want it too tight, or it'll hun on noisy signals
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> hunt
[17:58] <Randomskk> it's just getting feedback from the afc, which I don't control
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> ah
[17:59] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: so you get the afc output from fldigi?
[18:00] <Laurenceb> i see
[18:00] <Randomskk> yea
[18:00] <Randomskk> and the dial freq
[18:00] <Laurenceb> hmm could use that with sdr
[18:00] <Randomskk> compare to determine the audio frequency
[18:00] <Randomskk> then just retune to get the error down
[18:00] <Randomskk> the code is really simple https://gist.github.com/674384
[18:00] <Laurenceb> whats the dial frequency?
[18:01] <Randomskk> the frequency the radio itself is tuned to
[18:01] <Laurenceb> ah
[18:01] <Randomskk> the supressed carrier, for ssb
[18:01] <Randomskk> suppressed even
[18:01] <Laurenceb> thats the input box in fldigi?
[18:01] <Randomskk> yes
[18:01] <Randomskk> and the AFC frequency is what it calls the log frequency
[18:01] <Laurenceb> oh neat
[18:01] <Laurenceb> that sounds like an easier way to interface with fldigi
[18:01] <Randomskk> the xml is so so easy
[18:01] <Randomskk> xml-rpc even
[18:01] <Randomskk> well, in python
[18:02] Action: Laurenceb wonders about c
[18:02] <Randomskk> s = xmlrpclib.ServerProxy("http://localhost:7362"); freq = s.main.get_frequency(); s.main.set_frequency(f+100)
[18:02] <Randomskk> I understand C has a fairly okay xml rpc lib too
[18:03] <Laurenceb> s.main.set_frequency(new_freq) so you are getting fldigi to do the actual retuning?
[18:03] <Randomskk> yea
[18:03] <Randomskk> it has rig control via hamlib
[18:03] <Randomskk> thus my script doesn't care about what radio you have or anything
[18:03] <Laurenceb> guess i could do that with the serial
[18:03] <Randomskk> fldigi requires rig control to be set up for it to know the dial frequency
[18:03] <Randomskk> (it polls the radio)
[18:03] <Laurenceb> but i can only adjust in steps of 225hz
[18:04] <Randomskk> that's not a big deal ultimately
[18:04] <Randomskk> like I said, the passband is pretty wide
[18:04] <Laurenceb> fldigi will let me set a frequency with no radio attached
[18:06] <Laurenceb> ill see if i can reads it with python
[18:07] <Laurenceb> ah it does, awesome
[18:09] <Laurenceb> is there a way to set the frequency?
[18:10] <Laurenceb> ie set the frequency that appears in fldigi remotely
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[18:11] <Randomskk> yea, using the xmlrpc
[18:12] <Laurenceb> set_frequency doesnt seem to work
[18:12] <Randomskk> main.set_frequency() should do it?
[18:12] <Randomskk> :/
[18:12] <Laurenceb> what is the frequency in units of?
[18:13] <Randomskk> hz
[18:13] <Randomskk> well log.freq is khz
[18:14] <Laurenceb> hmm maybe it oesnt work if there no rig control setup
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[18:17] <Laurenceb> maybe i need to set it to rig control via xmlrpc
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[18:19] <Laurenceb> aha that works now XD
[18:20] <Laurenceb> ok shouldnt be too hard to setup a python script to run the sdr via dump.c
[18:21] <Laurenceb> so, lines 27 and 28, thats the frequency entry text box in hz, and the actual decoder in real KHz
[18:21] <Laurenceb> i.e. audio frequency + whatever fldigi thinks the carrier is
[18:22] <Randomskk> well
[18:22] <Laurenceb> im going to have to wait until it needs retuning by +-225hz
[18:22] <Randomskk> yea, but just set the gain to like 1/225
[18:22] <Randomskk> hmm or perhaps that won't quite work
[18:22] <Randomskk> well, play with those constants
[18:26] <Laurenceb> also i need to be able to manually tune it to start things off...
[18:27] <Laurenceb> slightly complex
[18:31] <Laurenceb> i know - ill only make it retune if the signal is above the squelch level
[18:40] <Laurenceb> looks like i need to use subprocess...
[18:40] <Laurenceb> http://docs.python.org/library/subprocess.html#module-subprocess
[18:40] Action: Laurenceb is confused
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[18:40] <Laurenceb> i needs to spawn ./dump and have a pipe to its stdin
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[18:58] <jkominar> Anyone have a moment to explain the difference between the GFS and GFS HD prediction model choices on the predictor tool?
[19:00] <Laurenceb> http://pastie.org/1293391
[19:01] <Laurenceb> or somethig like that - havent tested it
[19:03] <Laurenceb> actually no - a few hz error will integrate up until you have to retune
[19:03] <Laurenceb> stupuid
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[19:06] <fsphil> jkominar, the HD has more altitude layers, or something :)
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[19:15] <Dave-M0MYA> evening
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[19:24] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: s.modem.get_carrier() is easier ?
[19:28] <Laurenceb> who'll be at the launch tomorrow?
[19:28] <natrium42> i'll go if you go
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[19:29] <Laurenceb> ill be arriving about 10.40am, wondering if anyone will be passing by the station
[19:29] <natrium42> d'oh
[19:29] <Laurenceb> there is a bus, so i could head up to churchill
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[19:48] <Dave-M0MYA> jonsowman: I was just snopping round the ferrety bit of your github and noticed you made a few changes about an hour ago. No more ferret2?
[19:48] <Dave-M0MYA> *snooping
[19:49] <Dave-M0MYA> tho super-lots-of-kudos on the arduino rtty library!
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[20:03] <Randomskk> does anyone know why it would be a bad idea to have the NTX2 transmit at 0V input level rather than around midband?
[20:05] <Randomskk> <jonsowman> Dave-M0MYA: don't use it yet :) still a huge work in progress and doesn't work yet
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[20:06] <Dave-M0MYA> okeydoke - I figured there may be thngs afoot
[20:08] <Dave-M0MYA> while I've got your attention Randomskk, can you tell me how the analogue output of the arduino is coupled to the input of the NTX-2?
[20:08] <Randomskk> hah
[20:08] <Randomskk> I have just been whining about that
[20:08] <Randomskk> basically the arduino doesn't have an analogue output
[20:08] <Randomskk> it fakes it by doing a square wave at 62kHz with varying duty cycles
[20:08] <Randomskk> then smooths that through a capacitor to try and get an analogue voltage
[20:08] <Randomskk> which.. well, meh
[20:09] <Randomskk> it 'works'
[20:09] <Randomskk> the doing so totally messes complicated things up
[20:09] <Randomskk> uhm
[20:09] <Dave-M0MYA> yeah, thats whats getting me - does it need to go thru a LPF to convert is to DC?
[20:09] <Randomskk> my suggestion is to use a potential divider
[20:09] <Randomskk> and not PWM
[20:09] <Dave-M0MYA> as per HoHoHo?
[20:09] <Randomskk> not sure what HoHoHo used
[20:09] <Randomskk> but like, arduino through potential divider to ntx2
[20:10] <Randomskk> when arduino's at 0V, the ntx2 sees 0v
[20:10] <Randomskk> then arduino goes to 5v, ntx2 sees some small voltage that gives the shift you want
[20:10] <Dave-M0MYA> yup, that sounds a good approach
[20:10] <Dave-M0MYA> you don't like the PWM cos it messes up timings elsewhere in the sketch?
[20:10] <Randomskk> yes
[20:11] <Dave-M0MYA> yeah, I can agree with that =)
[20:11] <Dave-M0MYA> so as it stands, its direct coupled and the high frequency of the PWN is good enough to approximate DC?
[20:11] <Randomskk> well on ferret there is a capacitor to act as a LPF
[20:12] <Dave-M0MYA> ahhhhhh!
[20:12] <Randomskk> if the PWM is at 1kHz, the default arduino frequency, the harmonics are dreadful
[20:12] <Randomskk> massively awful
[20:12] <Randomskk> at 62.5kHz it's quite a lot better
[20:12] <Dave-M0MYA> I can imagine
[20:12] <Randomskk> but we do have a lpf
[20:12] <Randomskk> dunno if it's doing much
[20:12] <Randomskk> maybe it is
[20:12] <Dave-M0MYA> =)
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[20:16] <Dave-M0MYA> Randomskk: Perhaps I was thinking of ALIEN: http://alienproject.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/a-motherload/
[20:16] <Randomskk> that kind of works but is really a bit meh
[20:17] <Randomskk> you can do it with just one divider and one output pin fairly happily
[20:17] <Dave-M0MYA> ahh, gotcha
[20:17] <Dave-M0MYA> and this is why you want to know about driving the TXD pin at 0V?
[20:18] <Randomskk> indeed
[20:18] <Dave-M0MYA> and so the circle of questioning is complete =)
[20:19] <Dave-M0MYA> but as for answering your question - I'm afraid I don't have an answer :/
[20:20] <Dave-M0MYA> Without seeing the schematic of the NTX-2, the only thing I can think of is that you might loose some linearity in the PA
[20:20] <Dave-M0MYA> have you tried it just to see what happens?
[20:21] <Randomskk> it works just fine
[20:21] <Randomskk> is running now and has been for a while
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[20:24] <Dave-M0MYA> good stuff =)
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[20:33] <fsphil> I'm fairly sure the ntx2 has an lpf already
[20:33] <Dave-M0MYA> for what purpose?
[20:36] <NigeySWales> hey all
[20:37] <Dave-M0MYA> evening NigeySWales
[20:37] <NigeySWales> hey dave :D
[20:37] <fsphil> to stop it producing RF outside it's channel I suppose
[20:38] <fsphil> -'
[20:38] <fsphil> howdy NigeySWales
[20:38] <NigeySWales> hey phil, hows you ?
[20:39] <fsphil> not bad - just back from a birthday, ate too much cake :)
[20:39] <fsphil> how's things over there?
[20:40] <NigeySWales> haha wheres my cake :p .. all good here, although i did wake up this morning wondering if my chimney was still going to be there, the winds last night were hurrendous
[20:40] <fsphil> wasn't it just
[20:40] <fsphil> any damage?
[20:41] <jonsowman> Dave-M0MYA: we decided we'll write the arduino rtty lib for potential divider-type RTTY
[20:41] <NigeySWales> not to us, but locally quite a bit, a few buildings in town were rendered unsafe so some roads closed :/
[20:41] <jonsowman> rather than PWM
[20:41] <NigeySWales> hey jon, RE your email thank you !!
[20:42] <jonsowman> NigeySWales: no worries :)
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[20:44] <Laurenceb> i really dont get the arduino obsession
[20:44] <Laurenceb> its like deliberately crippling
[20:44] <jonsowman> they're easy for people new to this kind of thing
[20:44] <Laurenceb> you can easily get nice pwm if you do it properly
[20:44] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: I should point out that I totally agree, I think the only idea here is to do a half decent reference design for arduino to make it easy for new people to understand what's going on
[20:45] <Dave-M0MYA> jonsowman, Good on you all. I think you'll be doing a lot of people a good turn with that one
[20:45] <Laurenceb> guess so, why not a lib or something
[20:45] <Laurenceb> to do the pwm properly
[20:45] <Randomskk> because it still cocks it up due to arduino
[20:45] <Laurenceb> :(
[20:45] <Randomskk> basically their millis() relies on timer0 having a 1khz clock source
[20:45] <Randomskk> as does their micros()
[20:45] <Randomskk> and their delay() relies on the above
[20:45] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: will you be around 2morrow moring ?
[20:45] <Laurenceb> i see
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[20:45] <Randomskk> you can change the frequency to get higher frequency pwm (which is essential, else it goes awful)
[20:46] <Randomskk> but then millis() is wrong, delay works incorrectly, other things may be affected
[20:46] <Randomskk> even if you only change it for pwm then change it back again
[20:46] <jonsowman> Dave-M0MYA: that's really the idea - lots of people seem to be using ferret for reference and for ideas
[20:46] <Randomskk> I'll be around but not sure how early, jonsowman probably has a better idea
[20:46] <jonsowman> and I'd prefer that it was a solid, reliable, well written thing
[20:46] <Randomskk> basically this is all because we did ferret because it was very quick and that's what we needed
[20:46] <jonsowman> meeting James at 1200GMT at Chu
[20:46] <Laurenceb> will people be going to churchill brunch?
[20:46] <Randomskk> then everyone started using ferret because there wasn't much else as a reference
[20:46] <Randomskk> so now we want to do a good ferret
[20:47] Action: Laurenceb will be hungry :P
[20:47] <Randomskk> brunch on saturdays? perverse
[20:47] <Randomskk> selwyn brunch is sunday
[20:47] <jonsowman> it really is
[20:47] <jonsowman> nom nom
[20:47] <Laurenceb> jonsowman: you at Churchill?
[20:48] <Dave-M0MYA> sounds like an accurate appraisal of the situation =) I think that a simple, well documented approach would be well received by folk who just want to do RTTY on arduino - not just for HABS
[20:48] <Laurenceb> jonsowman: did we meet at a launch once... im trying to remember
[20:48] <NigeySWales> dave, sparkfun order shipped today
[20:49] <jonsowman> Laurenceb: I don't think so
[20:49] <jonsowman> and no, I'm at Selwyn
[20:49] <Dave-M0MYA> yay NigeySWales! I have been waiting 8 days since mine shipped
[20:49] <NigeySWales> apparently it can take upto 3 week :/
[20:49] <NigeySWales> weeks*
[20:50] <Randomskk> the trick is to use fedex express
[20:50] <Randomskk> order monday night, get it wednesday morning
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[20:50] <NigeySWales> :o
[20:50] <NigeySWales> i choose normal int mail .. that was $12 on its own!
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[20:54] <fsphil> it's usually pretty quick, I've had two orders from then arrive within a week
[20:54] <jcoxon> evening
[20:54] <jcoxon> just back from work
[20:54] <jcoxon> going to be along night
[20:54] <fsphil> evening jcoxon!
[20:54] <Randomskk> yo
[20:54] <fsphil> much still to be done?
[20:55] <NigeySWales> evening jcoxon
[20:55] <jcoxon> a little
[20:55] <jcoxon> gps is being a little funny - not getting a lock but getting time
[20:56] <jcoxon> i think its just my double glazing + the weather
[20:56] <jcoxon> been running some scenarios through my head
[20:56] <jcoxon> think its sensible to aim for an 18km float
[20:56] <jcoxon> so we need to launch a little later
[21:04] <fsphil> what's the ground forecast like?
[21:04] <jcoxon> 11km/h SW winds
[21:04] <jcoxon> not rain
[21:04] <fsphil> mm not so bad then
[21:04] <jcoxon> yeah we'll be carefull to fill in cover
[21:04] <jcoxon> ping DanielRichman
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[21:06] <DanielRichman> jcoxon: hi
[21:07] <DanielRichman> am (failing to) multitask so responses may be delayed
[21:09] <jcoxon> was wondering if you could add #atlasballoon to griffonbots twitter tracking
[21:10] <jonsowman> I don't trust griffonbot any more
[21:10] <jonsowman> :P
[21:10] <Randomskk> do we know why it randomly breaks now?
[21:10] <Randomskk> I do have my old python twitter irc bot thing that pastes tweets from a particular user to the channel
[21:10] <Laurenceb> autotune seems to be working
[21:10] <Randomskk> could set that up as a backup but then we'd get spammed if both work >.> also, one user only
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[21:10] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: oh sweet
[21:10] <Randomskk> brb washing up
[21:11] <Laurenceb> need to neaten it up
[21:11] <Laurenceb> fldigi afc with mfsk64 is hardly perfect
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[21:12] <Laurenceb> it fact its really annoying - keeps misaligning the FSK symbols by +1
[21:12] <jcoxon> bbl
[21:15] <Laurenceb> but other than that it works, just need some proper error handling etc
[21:15] <Randomskk> sweet
[21:15] <Randomskk> your sdr project seems really really neat
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[21:16] <Randomskk> how does it compare to an 817 for sensitivity?
[21:16] <Laurenceb> i used the modem stuff from XmlRpc Control - simpler
[21:16] <Randomskk> rather than log frequency?
[21:16] <Laurenceb> iirc 817 is 2dB or something
[21:16] <Randomskk> the RTTY modem doesn't seem to have a carrier frequency
[21:16] <Laurenceb> it just gives you the audio frequency
[21:16] <Randomskk> it errored when I tried to use it
[21:16] <Randomskk> with an error about the rtty thing
[21:16] <Laurenceb> oh :(
[21:17] <Randomskk> yea :(
[21:17] <Randomskk> what's yours?
[21:17] <Randomskk> (sensitivty)
[21:17] <Laurenceb> 6.5 iirc
[21:17] <Randomskk> not too bad
[21:17] <Laurenceb> but you can get arbitrarily good with an lna on the front
[21:17] <Laurenceb> well - down to 0.5 or so
[21:18] <Laurenceb> hmm thats annoying as i need to control the modem
[21:18] <Laurenceb> modem.set_carrier
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[21:19] <Randomskk> I just retune the radio slowly so the afc can keep up
[21:21] <Laurenceb> works for me
[21:21] <Laurenceb> - modem.set_carrier with custom RTTY
[21:21] <Randomskk> hm
[21:21] <Randomskk> does get_carrier work?
[21:22] <Randomskk> and give the current centre freq?
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[21:22] <Laurenceb> http://pastie.org/1293713
[21:23] <Laurenceb> i manually retuned it there as well
[21:23] <Randomskk> huh, and that's on rtty?
[21:23] <Laurenceb> yep
[21:23] <Randomskk> odd. oh well
[21:23] <Randomskk> will play
[21:24] <Randomskk> still, the current way does work, is just a little silly
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[21:29] <DanielRichman> I might be able to debug griffonbot at some point
[21:29] <DanielRichman> if it breaks again (can't right now) can try some tcpdumping; need to work out if twitter is even sending the data
[21:30] <DanielRichman> jcoxon: yeah I can do that
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[21:31] <Laurenceb> how do i use Popen.poll() ?
[21:31] <Laurenceb> in python
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[21:31] <Randomskk> haven't used it
[21:32] <Laurenceb> i want to check if a subprocess is still running.. cant get my head around how to use the poll object
[21:32] <Randomskk> I think you call poll()
[21:32] <Randomskk> then check returncode
[21:32] <Randomskk> as in
[21:32] <Randomskk> child.poll()
[21:32] <Randomskk> if child.returncode:
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[21:45] <kladol> @james DUTCH-MILL tracker standby @14.00 gmt
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[22:19] <jcoxon> hmmmm
[22:19] <NigeySWales> ?
[22:19] <jcoxon> gps is being funny
[22:19] <jcoxon> no lock and was outside
[22:19] <NigeySWales> which one you using ?
[22:20] <jcoxon> fsa03
[22:20] <jcoxon> haven't had a problem beore
[22:20] <NigeySWales> ooh, was going to say ive not read anything but good things about those
[22:20] <jcoxon> oh others have had issues with the antenna
[22:20] <NigeySWales> ahh
[22:20] <NigeySWales> have you got a spare just in case?
[22:20] <jonsowman> oh dear, is it being annoying?
[22:21] <jcoxon> yeah i've got a spare
[22:22] <NigeySWales> i havent tested my lassen yet but i know i wont get a signal inside, even my mobile doesnt get a signal in most of my house :(
[22:23] <jcoxon> not to worried,
[22:23] <jcoxon> its getting time
[22:23] <NigeySWales> ah
[22:23] <jcoxon> so i think its just a sat issue
[22:24] <NigeySWales> if you dont get a lock does it still report number of satellites, or is that after lock ?
[22:24] <jcoxon> with the current setup it seems to only report number after lock
[22:24] <NigeySWales> dam
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[22:28] <NigeySWales> hm im debating if i need a RTC on my raduino
[22:28] <NigeySWales> assuming i can log time to sd from the gps
[22:29] <jonsowman> I assume raduino was a typo, but that's quite clever
[22:30] <NigeySWales> lol i can't spell today
[22:30] <jonsowman> good name for an arduino flight computer
[22:31] <jonsowman> anyway, as for the RTC
[22:31] <jonsowman> you can get the time from the GPS providing it has lock
[22:31] <jonsowman> some GPSes will continue to output time even when they lose lock
[22:31] <jonsowman> ie. they have an RTC on board but it's not battery backed
[22:31] <NigeySWales> ah of course, no lock no time .. hmm
[22:31] <NigeySWales> oh mine will have
[22:31] <NigeySWales> battery
[22:32] <jonsowman> right, but whether the GPS continues to "guess" the time even when it doesn't have lock depends on the GPS
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[22:32] <NigeySWales> oh i see
[22:32] <jonsowman> it's "guess" will be more than good enough for logging purposes
[22:32] <NigeySWales> perfect, will save a bit of hasle then :D
[22:33] <NigeySWales> hassle*
[22:33] <jonsowman> it is likely to have a drift in the order of microseconds per hour
[22:33] <jonsowman> maybe milliseconds if it's a bit rubbish. but still
[22:33] <NigeySWales> oh i can live with that, temp will only be logged every 5 minutes anyway
[22:33] <jonsowman> yup
[22:33] <jonsowman> in which case, if the GPS outputs time in a no-lock state, that will do you fine :)
[22:33] <NigeySWales> or would you recommend a longer interval ?
[22:34] <jonsowman> shorter if anything
[22:34] <jonsowman> gets you a prettier graph
[22:34] <NigeySWales> true, i do like pretty graphs lol
[22:34] <jonsowman> if you've got the space to decrease logging period, you might as well
[22:34] <NigeySWales> i was looking at a pressure sensor, then saw the price of them
[22:34] <jonsowman> pressure sensors are a bit annoying
[22:34] <NigeySWales> i have a new sandisk 2gb sd to use so space is fine
[22:35] <jonsowman> you pay a lot if you want one that goes down to ~0mbar
[22:35] <jonsowman> if you are happy to have one that will bottom out at ~100mbar, then you are alright
[22:35] <jonsowman> freescale do lots, we got them free samples
[22:35] <NigeySWales> :o !
[22:35] <jonsowman> they are surface mount things
[22:35] <jonsowman> about 5mm x 5mm
[22:36] <jonsowman> analogue out
[22:36] <NigeySWales> and i thought the gps unit was tiny !
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[22:37] <NigeySWales> ive been thinking ahead a bit, the first launch will probably be no cams, just a test of the hardware, debating a lower altitude for it
[22:37] <jonsowman> as in a smaller balloon?
[22:37] <jonsowman> or planning to cut down?
[22:38] <NigeySWales> id like to the easy route and use a smaller balloon, but as i have to build a cut down, may go for that, be a good way to test the cutdown to
[22:38] <NigeySWales> +go
[22:39] <jonsowman> yep, cutdowns are neat
[22:39] <jonsowman> you have to decide how to trigger them though
[22:39] <NigeySWales> yeah, at the mo i have no clue, it's been at the bottom of the list until now
[22:39] <fsphil> jcoxon, do you want to try the area intersection code on this flight?
[22:40] <NigeySWales> i did rule out the pyro version though Jon, i kind of like my eyesight etc intact!
[22:40] <fsphil> upu tested a neat cut-down with nichrome wire
[22:41] <ejcweb> jonsowman: a) Hi, b) All 'okayed' now at the Churchill end.
[22:41] <jonsowman> hehe, there are lots of ways
[22:41] <jonsowman> ejcweb: excellent, thank you! also, hi
[22:41] <jonsowman> did you see my email?
[22:41] <jcoxon> fsphil, i didn't sadly
[22:41] <jonsowman> pushed meeting back to 1pm at the bar
[22:41] <ejcweb> Yep, that's fine.
[22:41] <jonsowman> excellent
[22:42] <ejcweb> It was just a matter of making sure that the porters had word from the maintenance dept to say that we were allowed the key.
[22:43] <jonsowman> ah right, I thought something like that might be required
[22:43] <ejcweb> Next time I'll know who to contact straight off.
[22:43] <fsphil> jcoxon, no probs - it can be tested on the ground anyway
[22:43] <jonsowman> thanks for doing that
[22:43] <jonsowman> :)
[22:43] <ejcweb> np
[22:43] <jcoxon> thanks ejcweb
[22:48] <NigeySWales> hm nichrome wire seems out
[22:51] <Upu> it works with nichrome
[22:52] <Upu> well I've not flight tested it
[22:52] <Upu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptSeH6F3VEo
[22:52] <NigeySWales> oh? was reading that nichrome doesnt always work leaving it partially cut
[22:52] <Upu> twist it round the wire
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[22:53] <Upu> sorry twist the nichrome round the cord
[22:53] <Upu> Takes about 2 secs using 4 AA's
[22:53] <NigeySWales> oo that does look effective!
[22:54] <Upu> or try this :
[22:54] <Upu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmf-xIO7qZ8&NR=1
[22:54] <Upu> :)
[22:54] <NigeySWales> that's cool! the noise...!
[22:55] <Upu> though the best way is to use some explosive ones
[22:56] <fsphil> heh, nichrome wire? *pop* .. what nichrome wire? :)
[22:56] <NigeySWales> i think me and explosives dont get on lol
[22:56] <Upu> I've not done much with it to be honest as we got really busy at work
[22:56] <Upu> though I have ordered my flight computer PCB's
[22:57] <NigeySWales> awsome :D
[22:57] <Upu> Hi btw :)
[22:58] <fsphil> o/
[22:58] <NigeySWales> 10metre reel of nichrom, £2.00 .. cheap stuff
[22:58] <NigeySWales> nichrome*
[22:59] <NigeySWales> hey fsphil :)
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[23:05] <fsphil> Anyone know if I stick a few extra elements on the end of my yagi - matching the existing ones, will it increase the gain
[23:05] <fsphil> ?
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> Seems logical.
[23:05] <NigeySWales> hm theres an idea, turn a 10 into a 13 ..
[23:07] <fsphil> just comparing my 9el to the bigger version -- seems the only difference are the extra director elements
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[23:13] <fsphil> yikes, £71.95 for a phasing harness
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[23:20] <juxta_> ping Darkside
[23:22] <Darkside> pong
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[23:24] <Darkside> juxta_: ?
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[23:45] <Dan-K2VOL> hey StillDavid
[23:46] <jcoxon> hey Dan-K2VOL
[23:46] <zuph> hey everybody
[23:46] <zuph> :-p
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[23:53] <Dan-K2VOL> Buenos noches aviator
[23:53] <Dan-K2VOL> s
[23:53] Action: jcoxon is having GPS issues again
[23:53] <jonsowman> oh dear :( what's up?
[23:54] <jcoxon> why is it 24hrs before launch the gps always stops working
[23:54] <jcoxon> just can't get a lokc
[23:54] <Dan-K2VOL> ugh that sucks
[23:54] <Laurenceb> if i try to flush a write to a fifo in c, what happends, return non zero?
[23:54] <jonsowman> that's unfortunate
[23:54] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: power supply?
[23:54] <Dan-K2VOL> make sure it's not wrapped in an anti-static protection bag, that got us on a UTARC flight
[23:54] <Laurenceb> ublox5 is sensitive to theat
[23:55] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, its returning time
[23:55] <jcoxon> well its returning time since boot
[23:55] <Laurenceb> how many sats
[23:55] <Laurenceb> oh non then
[23:55] <jcoxon> yeah
[23:55] <fsphil> it will get the time with a weak signal
[23:55] <fsphil> bad antenna?
[23:55] <Laurenceb> yes, the RF stuff wont work well with noisy power supply
[23:55] <jcoxon> my fear
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[23:58] <jcoxon> just powered up my lassen to see if it can out do the ublox
[00:00] --- Sat Nov 13 2010