highaltitude.log.20101111

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[00:09] <Laurenceb> launch still on for sat?
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[07:46] <juxta> morning jonsowman, can you ding me when you've got a minute? :)
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[08:00] <jonsowman> ping junderwood
[08:00] <jonsowman> oops sorry
[08:00] <jonsowman> juxta: pong
[08:01] <juxta> heya jonsowman
[08:01] <juxta> good morning :)
[08:01] <jonsowman> morning :)
[08:01] <jonsowman> hows things?
[08:01] <juxta> good good - was going to let you know it turns out those modules I mentioned are lassen SQ's rather than IQ's
[08:01] <juxta> I'm told they're identical except that they're only 8 channel
[08:02] <jonsowman> oh that's fine :)
[08:02] <juxta> ok great
[08:02] <juxta> will let you know when I have a date/ number etc
[08:02] <juxta> I was also going to pick your predictor brain if I could ;p
[08:02] <jonsowman> brilliant, thanks :)
[08:02] <jonsowman> yes of course
[08:03] <juxta> okay - I've setup your standalone predictor but had a few issues
[08:03] <jonsowman> this is an unmodified setup?
[08:04] <juxta> yup
[08:04] <juxta> i fixed the paths etc, but I noticed this too:
[08:04] <juxta> https://github.com/jonsowman/cusf-standalone-predictor/blob/master/predict.py#L505
[08:05] <juxta> if I run predict.py as anything other than root, that throws and exception, but not the one that's being caught, so the script bails
[08:05] <juxta> an* exception
[08:05] <jonsowman> interesting, you have pydap installed I assume?
[08:05] <jonsowman> as well as the other python packages
[08:05] <juxta> yeah
[08:05] <juxta> yep
[08:05] <juxta> I don't know enough python to work out what kind of exception it is - but if i run as root it runs fine
[08:06] <juxta> and if i make it a general catch-all, then it runs as non-root
[08:06] <juxta> ie don't specify the exception type
[08:06] <jonsowman> I'm not really a python person either I'm afraid, never seen that before
[08:06] <juxta> haha, oh well, I don't mind :)
[08:06] <jonsowman> Randomskk is more likely to be able to help
[08:07] <juxta> it seems to work with the general exception type, i just didn't know what was happening there
[08:07] <jonsowman> me neither, that's weird
[08:07] <juxta> yeah
[08:07] <jonsowman> sorry can't help you with that! no idea...
[08:07] <juxta> but the last thing I think that's stopping me from using it is this, when the binary runs: wind_file_cache.c:284: wind_file_cache_find_entry: Assertion `cache && earlier && later' failed.
[08:07] <Darkside> hey juxta
[08:07] <juxta> hey Darkside
[08:08] <Darkside> still sunday?
[08:08] <Darkside> or monday now
[08:08] <juxta> monday
[08:08] <juxta> sunday is a swimming day
[08:09] <Darkside> heh
[08:09] <jonsowman> hmm
[08:09] <jonsowman> brb 2 secs
[08:09] <juxta> okay
[08:09] <Darkside> i guess i'll have sunday to study now :P
[08:09] <Darkside> and get my netbook setup
[08:09] <juxta> hehe
[08:09] <juxta> will you be okay for monday?
[08:10] <Darkside> i might have to do some shift swapping..
[08:10] <Darkside> hmm, better sort that out
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[08:13] <Darkside> SMSed..
[08:13] <Darkside> i'm rostered on from 5pm to 10pm, i can change that to 6pm-11pm, but i doubt i'd get back in tiem for that :P
[08:13] <Darkside> so seeing if anyone else can take it
[08:13] <juxta> ahh right, hehe :)
[08:13] <Darkside> i'm already rostered on for way too many shifts that week as it is..
[08:14] <Darkside> i'm beginning to wish i asked for annual leave, oh well
[08:15] <Darkside> the problem i have is my new manager at work is incompetent, and if i don't sort this out, it won't get sorted
[08:15] <juxta> annual leave? aren't you a causual? ;p
[08:15] <Darkside> nope, perm part time
[08:15] <juxta> oh right
[08:15] <Darkside> i have about 80 hours annual leave atm :P
[08:16] <juxta> didn't realise
[08:16] <juxta> wow
[08:16] <Darkside> when i quit i'll get all that paid out :P
[08:16] <juxta> and you get paid for that too, right?
[08:16] <jonsowman> ive no idea why that assertion fails
[08:16] <Darkside> juxta: yep, when i take leave, i specify how many hours i want to be paid
[08:16] <juxta> yeah, very odd - even when I swap it out with a previously built binary (which works in the hourly predictor) it fails :(
[08:17] <jonsowman> huh
[08:18] <juxta> just changed a path, trying it again now incase I messed up there
[08:18] <earthshine> morning
[08:19] <jonsowman> juxta: if you enable debug in config.inc.php, the UI will write the shell command it issues to /tmp/pred_log
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[08:20] <juxta> yeah, I did that, and added a line to put the output from the script to the log too
[08:20] <jonsowman> then you can sudo -u www-data `cat /tmp/pred_log` from repo root
[08:20] <jonsowman> ah ok
[08:20] <juxta> had to do that to work out that that www-data wasn't allowed to use 'at' to begin with, hehe
[08:20] <Randomskk> juxta: can you paste the python stacktrace when it dies?
[08:20] <juxta> hrm, assertion is still failing
[08:20] <Randomskk> the original version of that code was evil and just did except, I added pydap.exceptions.ServerError to stop it being catchall
[08:21] <Randomskk> it may be that on some occasions pydap actually throws other errors
[08:21] <juxta> i don't get a stacktrace, but I think I can make one come along if i just remove that try block ;p
[08:24] <juxta> Randomskk, i just printed the exception type: exceptions.IOError
[08:24] <juxta> is there a way I can tell python to print a stack trace and exit?
[08:24] <juxta> or just actually remove the try?
[08:25] <Randomskk> IOError, huh what
[08:25] <Randomskk> it should give some kind of message
[08:25] <Randomskk> but yea, just remove the try and except, then you should get it quitting with the error
[08:26] <juxta> okay, 2 secs
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[08:28] <Darkside> juxta: im installing a bunch of stuff on the netbook atm
[08:28] <Darkside> java, python,
[08:28] <Darkside> i've just copied the cygwin install
[08:30] <juxta> Randomskk, ugh, it's not even crashing after i removed that try/except block
[08:31] <juxta> just returning with 'could not locate a dataset...
[08:31] <Randomskk> uhm, that's really odd
[08:31] <Randomskk> is it trying somewhere else
[08:31] <Randomskk> wait
[08:31] <Randomskk> just
[08:31] <Randomskk> try:
[08:31] <Randomskk> stuff
[08:31] <Randomskk> except:
[08:31] <Randomskk> sorry, I mean
[08:31] <Randomskk> ....hm
[08:32] <Randomskk> try except Exception as e:
[08:32] <Randomskk> raise e
[08:32] <Randomskk> oh I see
[08:32] <Randomskk> it's because of line 203
[08:32] <Randomskk> get rid of that try block too
[08:32] <juxta> ah, haha
[08:32] <juxta> okay
[08:33] <Darkside> juxta: what has to be installed via easy-install?
[08:34] <juxta> Randomskk, ugh, it's a permissions error
[08:34] <Randomskk> what error?
[08:34] <juxta> http://pastebin.com/ELc5qTXe
[08:35] <juxta> so that's what's throwing the IOerror
[08:35] <juxta> Darkside, pydap
[08:35] <juxta> I have a newer version with some instructions too
[08:35] <juxta> it's packaged with the dll's too
[08:35] <Randomskk> make sure /tmp/pydap-cache is 777
[08:35] <juxta> i'll email it to you
[08:36] <Darkside> ok
[08:36] <Randomskk> (almost the only time anything should ever be 777)
[08:37] <juxta> yeah, it's throwing the right exception now, hehe
[08:37] <juxta> Randomskk, the GFS dir is hardcoded in that script too
[08:38] <Randomskk> indeed
[08:38] <Randomskk> the script is a hacky hack on top of someone else's hack
[08:38] <juxta> haha
[08:39] <juxta> now I just need to work out why the binary is failing :(
[08:41] <Randomskk> gotta run, good luck
[08:42] <juxta> cheers Randomskk
[08:42] <juxta> jonsowman, exception thing was my fault ;p
[08:42] <juxta> still no idea why that assert is failing though
[08:44] <Darkside> juxta: ill need chasetracker on the day too btw
[08:44] <juxta> oh yep
[08:44] <juxta> got the maps here for you too
[08:44] <Darkside> cool
[08:44] <Darkside> maybe we can sort that sunday
[08:44] <juxta> alright
[08:44] <Darkside> i can get to your place if need be
[08:45] <juxta> either way should work
[08:45] <juxta> i have 2 helium cylinders in the boot
[08:45] <Darkside> haha
[08:45] <juxta> i need to get them up there tomorrow
[08:46] <juxta> I had to install anchor points and tie downs earlier so that the helium people didn't complain about my lack of regard for saefty regulations and whatnot
[08:46] <Darkside> wha?
[08:46] <Darkside> hahaha
[08:47] <Darkside> oh yes, adrian normally gets them
[08:47] <juxta> sometimes
[08:47] <juxta> i often go pick them up but I just grab it and run off real quick before they can see i dont have appropriate restraints
[08:47] <juxta> this time i was getting 2 though, so not much chance of that
[08:48] <Darkside> hahahaha
[08:48] <juxta> plus is probably a good idea to actually have the tie downs there
[08:48] <juxta> is = it's
[08:49] <Darkside> oh man
[08:49] <Darkside> IT WORKDS
[08:49] <Darkside> well, thepredictor
[08:49] <Darkside> SLOW tho
[08:49] <juxta> excellent
[08:50] <Darkside> *very* slow
[08:50] <juxta> heh, well it is a netbook :P
[08:50] <Darkside> haha
[08:50] <juxta> how long does it take to run?
[08:50] <Darkside> a few seconds
[08:50] <juxta> of thats fine
[08:50] <juxta> oh*
[08:50] <Darkside> lol
[08:51] <juxta> it won't hold anything up
[08:51] <Darkside> i might end up using my macbook anyway
[08:51] <Darkside> depends
[08:51] <Darkside> i'll bring both :P
[08:51] <juxta> good idea, incase something dies
[08:51] <Darkside> give the other people in the car something to play with too
[08:51] <Darkside> they can watch the online tracker on my netbook or something
[08:52] <juxta> I think we'll fly the stills camera
[08:52] <juxta> do you have 2 internet doo-dads?
[08:52] <Darkside> ill share wifi
[08:52] <Darkside> if i have power ill just run windows in a VM
[08:53] <Darkside> and then share internet from OSX
[08:53] <Darkside> macbook will get nice and warm lol
[08:54] <Darkside> but it will work well
[08:54] <Darkside> and then i can leave my macbook in the car and take my netbook with me
[08:55] <Darkside> i dunno, ill sort it out
[08:55] <juxta> jonsowman, bah the assert is working now - my fault again! :)
[08:56] <Darkside> aha i see your message capt'n
[08:56] <Darkside> warp speeed 7 go!
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[09:13] <Darkside> hmm
[09:13] <Darkside> cant get vnc connecting into my VM
[09:13] <Darkside> i wanted to get this working so i could VNC into my macbooks vmware fusion session from my netbook :P
[09:14] <Darkside> i guess RDP would be better, but i dunno how to get a RDP Server running...
[09:15] <Darkside> oh wait
[09:15] <Darkside> ..
[09:20] <Darkside> oh man
[09:20] <Darkside> this is lol
[09:21] <Darkside> this will be hillarious to run in the car
[09:28] <Darkside> http://i.imgur.com/p6GVr.jpg
[09:28] <Darkside> then again this is exactly what you do juxta :P
[09:28] <Darkside> just i don't have a PC running it, i have a macbook
[09:30] <NigeySWales> morning Darkside , juxta
[10:07] <eroomde> morning
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[10:12] <juxta> hi NigeySWales
[10:12] <juxta> Darkside, yep, same as what I do :)
[10:12] <Darkside> heh
[10:13] <juxta> except my host machine is in the boot
[10:13] <Darkside> but if i have my macbook running that with the lid closed, it will overheat :P
[10:13] <juxta> really?
[10:13] <juxta> that's unfortunate
[10:13] <Darkside> so i think i'll just leave my macbook running, and only use the netbook when i'm moving around
[10:13] <Darkside> and have the macbooks lid open at all times
[10:14] <Darkside> i'll probably have to sit behind the driver
[10:14] <Darkside> else i won't have enough space
[10:15] <juxta> alright
[10:15] <juxta> i spoke to Chris, he said you had your pick of seats
[10:15] <Darkside> hehe
[10:15] <Darkside> back right, this will be interesting :P
[10:15] <juxta> what antenna will you put on the mag mount?
[10:16] <Darkside> i have a 4.5dBi whip
[10:16] <Darkside> designed for UHF CB, but it will work fine for receive
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[10:18] <Laurenceb> was someone here having issues with firefox on ubuntu 10.04?
[10:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[10:19] <Laurenceb> i cant load large jpegs now :-/
[10:19] <Laurenceb> they get corrupted
[10:20] <NigeySWales> hi Lunar_Lander , Laurenceb
[10:21] <NigeySWales> Laurenceb, what ver of ff?
[10:21] <Laurenceb> bigger than a couple of hundered pixels wide
[10:21] <Laurenceb> 3.6.12
[10:22] <NigeySWales> hm, ive heard a few oddities about that ver of ff on 1.10 not 10.4
[10:23] <NigeySWales> 10.10*
[10:23] <Laurenceb> i see
[10:23] <Laurenceb> theres some pretty weird thigs happening
[10:23] <Laurenceb> maybe 20% of the time a page wnt load fully
[10:23] <Laurenceb> or itll time out when theres nothing wrong with the connection
[10:24] <NigeySWales> :o thats bad! isnt 3.6.12 only a couple of weeks old to ?
[10:24] <Laurenceb> aiui yes
[10:24] <Laurenceb> this all seems to be connected to the latest update - past week or so
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[10:25] <Laurenceb> maybe i should try another browser :-/
[10:25] <NigeySWales> yup, seems to be the trend, have you looked if anything is on launchpad ?
[10:25] <Laurenceb> what that?
[10:25] <Laurenceb> *whats
[10:26] <NigeySWales> ubuntus bug tracker
[10:26] <Laurenceb> ive gtg, will see if its fixable
[10:26] <Laurenceb> i see
[10:26] <Laurenceb> cya
[10:26] <NigeySWales> oki cyl dude
[10:36] <GW8RAK> I had problems last week with Firefox 3.6.12 hanging for 30s or so, but this week it's only happened once. Many other people have reported the same.
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[10:47] <NigeySWales> hey GW8RAK
[10:55] <GW8RAK> Morning NigeySWales
[10:57] <NigeySWales> im confuddled
[10:58] <NigeySWales> i cant fiind a dku-11 only a dcu-11 :|
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[11:06] <Darkside> juxta: damn its warm tonight
[11:06] <Darkside> :(
[11:07] <russss> it was 3 degrees, windy and rainy last night. I am not sympathetic.
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> I suggest you purchase a large freezer, a window, a laptop, and a cushion. Place the window in the side of the freezer, and get in with the laptop.
[11:13] <NigeySWales> lol
[11:16] <eroomde> it's amazing here
[11:16] <eroomde> 38mph winds and huge amounts of rain
[11:16] <eroomde> it's really loud
[11:16] <eroomde> might start a fire and bed in for the day
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> Sunny ATM
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> I need to go outside and fix roofs of outbuildings. :/
[11:19] <NigeySWales> eroomde, you stole my weather? its awful here :(
[11:19] <eroomde> NigeySWales: yeah sorry about that
[11:19] <eroomde> it is rather welsh right now
[11:19] <NigeySWales> nono ure welcome to it, send the sun over though pls :P
[11:19] <eroomde> was going to do a final shop for my trip to sweden but i think that can wait
[11:20] <eroomde> not worth wondering around chichester in this crap
[11:20] <NigeySWales> and i think this t68 i bought is a dud, it wont turn on.. grrr
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> mainscreen not turn on?
[11:20] <NigeySWales> nope, unless it doesnt support powerup when charging :|
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> leave it to fully charge
[11:21] <NigeySWales> will do, you got any idea what cable i need, alien site says says dku-11 but i can only find dcu-11
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[11:23] <SpeedEvil> for what?
[11:23] <NigeySWales> connecting to the arduino
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> have you tried googling both?
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> maybe it's a typo
[11:24] <NigeySWales> yeah loads of hits for dcu but not dku
[11:27] <NigeySWales> must be this 1
[11:27] <NigeySWales>
[11:27] <NigeySWales> 19% buy the item featured on this page:
[11:27] <NigeySWales> Sony Ericsson DCU-11 USB Cable 2.5 out of 5 stars (15)
[11:27] <NigeySWales> £1.49
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[12:14] Action: Laurenceb_ finally has a dcf77 design
[12:14] <Laurenceb_> only one IC - quad opamp
[12:14] <Laurenceb_> xtal filter and jfet for the VGA
[12:15] <Laurenceb_> timer1 in 16bit mode for the vcxo and timer0 as 8 bit for the jfet biasing pwm
[12:15] <Laurenceb_> only spiced the filter part so far, but it looks promising
[12:16] <Laurenceb_> ive ordered some dcf modules and 77.5khz crystals
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> :)
[12:17] <Laurenceb_> finding an appropriate jfet is slightly annoying
[12:17] <Laurenceb_> so many of them
[12:19] <SpeedEvil> Well - generally you'd just want the largest Gm you can, and the smallest capacitance.
[12:20] <Laurenceb_> ant - 300x gain stage & *-1opamp stage - 77.5khz xtal - trimcap to *-1 output - 100k to gnd - variable gain opamp circuit - *100 gain stage maybe some filtering passives - adc
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> Sounds plausible
[12:20] <Laurenceb_> the trimcap cancels out the crystal parasitic capacitance, so you can get good out of band blocking
[12:21] <Laurenceb_> the main thing i need from the jfet is low pink voltage
[12:21] <Laurenceb_> *pinch
[12:21] <Laurenceb_> as i just have +-1.65v supplies
[12:25] <Laurenceb_> oh hang on - http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electronic/fet.html#c3
[12:26] <Laurenceb_> think i got that one wrong - the linear region is near 0v on the gate
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[12:29] <SpeedEvil> you need to apply a large slice of the 'pinch-off' voltage if you want to take it to nearly 'off'
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=869-1205-2-ND ?>
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[12:32] <junderwood> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-11734084
[12:36] <NigeySWales> £8,000 :|
[12:37] <Laurenceb_> im not 100% convinced it flew
[12:37] <Laurenceb_> no decent evidence
[12:37] <Laurenceb_> heh double meaning
[12:38] <NigeySWales> haha, i doubt the plane "flew" back
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> Looking at the first figure on page 2. With ~50mV of signal max, you go from around 1uA@-1V(worst case) to 50uA or so.
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> So 1K to 50K
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[12:40] <SpeedEvil> Yeah - well.
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> 7000 of that was for the trip to spain, and the coke and hookers.
[12:41] <NigeySWales> lol, i never could work out why they went to spain for it
[12:41] <Laurenceb_> hmm looks like i was wrong
[12:42] <Laurenceb_> you only need linear behaviour in current from drain to source
[12:43] <SpeedEvil> yeah - 'balloon and plane landed' = no sep
[12:44] <SpeedEvil> I suppose you almost don't care about distortion
[12:44] <SpeedEvil> Also
[12:45] <SpeedEvil> you can add a couple of caps, hook the JFET to V+ with a couple of 1M resistors, the caps go to the feedback points, then you have 3.3V to play with
[12:46] <SpeedEvil> With the FET only in the AC feedback path, freeing you up for a wider Vgs swing
[12:46] <Laurenceb_> hmm yeah
[12:46] <SpeedEvil> The obvious other wrinkle is two FETs in a potential divider.
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> Then you go from 50:1 - 1:50
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> BF245C looks ok
[12:56] <Laurenceb_> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=1685539
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[13:07] <Laurenceb_> http://i61www.ira.uka.de/users/knoop/VooDoo2/doc/html/index.html
[13:07] <Laurenceb_> ^ interesting - someone suggested using that with a hacked kinect
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[13:37] <NigeySWales> grrr its sodding hammering down and i have to get the veg for dinner :(
[13:39] <Laurenceb_> http://blog.bahneman.com/content/it-was-us-airways-flight-808
[13:47] <NigeySWales> bah all that excitement for a jetliner :/
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[13:50] <Darkside> pfff
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[13:56] <NigeySWales> when is you're launch Darkside ?
[13:56] <NigeySWales> hi jgrahamc
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[13:56] <jgrahamc> Hello
[13:57] <jgrahamc> You're up early, or are you not in CA?
[13:57] <jgrahamc> Whoops. Wrong window :-(
[14:01] <jgrahamc> Are you working on a HAB project Nigel?
[14:02] <NigeySWales> trying to with my very very amateur electronics info lol
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[14:02] <jgrahamc> What sort of flight computer are you planning to use?
[14:03] <NigeySWales> i have the arduino mega
[14:04] <jgrahamc> That's a nice little board.
[14:04] <jgrahamc> What electronics are you having trouble with?
[14:04] <NigeySWales> yeah it seems very popular, and lots of code floating round to so that helps
[14:05] <NigeySWales> mainly just understanding how it all connects up, been getting alot of help with the voltage problems due to the mega being 5v and the gps/ radio etc 3.3
[14:07] <NigeySWales> wb SpeedEvil
[14:09] <Hibby> ground station up here is nearly complete
[14:09] <Hibby> case of power to the preamps and maybe a cable fab or two
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[14:19] <NigeySWales> hmmz does the icom ic-w32e do ssb?
[14:20] <Hibby> nope, not that I can remember
[14:20] <Hibby> fm/am only
[14:21] <NigeySWales> ah oki, tnx hibby
[14:24] <Hibby> anyone know anything about this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8124611/Paper-aeroplane-launched-into-space-captures-breathtaking-images.html ?
[14:25] <jonsowman> Hibby: I just got called by a guy from the Telegraph about that
[14:25] <Hibby> hahah
[14:25] <Hibby> really?
[14:25] <jonsowman> indeed
[14:25] <jgrahamc> Something The Register did called PARIS: http://www.theregister.co.uk/science/paris/
[14:25] <russss> Hibby: yeah we followed it. Telegraph is a bit late
[14:25] <jgrahamc> Don't really understand why it cost £8,000, though.
[14:25] <russss> as usual
[14:25] <Hibby> oh, gordonjcp says hi, 8k?
[14:26] <Hibby> woop
[14:26] <Hibby> 2 messages in one there.
[14:26] <Hibby> aye... 8k? mostly in transport costs?
[14:26] <russss> jgrahamc: I guess they paid the guy who did the radio stuff for them. And they launched from Spain.
[14:26] <jgrahamc> I can imagine that outsourcing the development would have cost £££
[14:26] <russss> and naturally it didn't work correctly.
[14:26] <NigeySWales> or they did it for 500 and spent the rest on beer lol
[14:26] <Hibby> lol
[14:28] <NigeySWales> although they did some testing in the chamber at quinetiq, that mightve cost a bit
[14:29] <Hibby> so much for a "Laugh" project then :p
[14:31] <jgrahamc> Apparently they use one of these for GPS tracking: http://www.bluetreeservices.co.uk/koolTraxLite.php which is SiRFstar III based which means it fails above the 24km limit
[14:31] <Hibby> less than ideal
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[14:32] <jgrahamc> Although they also mention IIRC using a Lassen IQ as well
[14:33] <russss> they had a relatively fancy tracking system
[14:33] <Elwell> Hibby: (since you brought it up) -- whats 'banned' about launching plane over UK?
[14:33] <russss> so I don't think it was just that.
[14:34] <russss> Elwell: you can't fly model planes above 400 feet, basically.
[14:34] <Hibby> Elwell: from what I remember it's a pretty specific bit of sky you can operate them in,no?
[14:34] <jgrahamc> You are right russ. They also had a couple of beacons, one with a GPS.
[14:35] <russss> the exemption for balloons is very specific that they should be attached to a parachute at all times
[14:36] <Elwell> aaah. Don't suppose having the plane 'attached' to a parachute (even if it was accidentally stowed in the fuselage) would get round that?
[14:36] <Elwell> where are these things documented? club crib notes?
[14:37] <russss> Air Navigation Order, it's fairly readable. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/3015/contents/made
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[14:40] <jgrahamc> Which parts of the ANO are relevant?
[14:41] <Elwell> 2009 No. 3015PART 22BalloonsSection 163 looks likely
[14:42] <russss> and small unmanned aircraft: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/3015/article/166/made
[14:43] <jgrahamc> That rule says that you have to maintain visual contact with the aircraft.
[14:43] <jkominar> Does anyone have any info about the legalities of HAB launches in Canada? I've found some bits and pieces via google searches, but I'm not convinced I have the whole picture.
[14:43] <jkominar> First time here btw - hi everyone :)
[14:44] <jonsowman> hi jkominar
[14:44] <russss> jkominar: the person you want to talk to is natrium but I haven't seen him here in a while
[14:44] <jkominar> Hi jon .. thanks for the invite!
[14:44] <russss> jkominar: http://natrium42.com/ is his site
[14:44] <jonsowman> how is the predictor working for you now jkominar?
[14:45] Action: russss never saw the other cool stuff he made
[14:45] <jkominar> My team has been working on our launch for about a year and a half in our spare time, so we're excited to be nearing our launch window ... hopefully in the next week or two, weqather permitting
[14:46] <jkominar> This is our first attempt at this, and it's been a thoroughly intriguing process :)
[14:46] <jonsowman> good stuff, hope it all goes well :) any details of the payload?
[14:47] <jkominar> Actually, I've unknowingly email coresponded with Naturium42 in the past. He went to the University of Waterloo, just like me, so turns out he's right in my geographical area. I didn't realize that was him until I checked out the site. I'll have to reach out to him via email again. Never discussed regulations with him back then.
[14:48] <jonsowman> jkominar: he is around here a reasonabe amount
[14:49] <jkominar> We'll be launching from an area pretty close to Lucknow, ON where he launched his HALO missions from. Just a bit further north west.
[14:49] <jonsowman> good stuff
[14:49] <jkominar> Any really common gotchas to be aware of from you experienced folks?
[14:49] <Laurenceb_> direction parachute works
[14:50] <jonsowman> :P
[14:50] <Laurenceb_> as a uav workaround
[14:51] <jonsowman> jkominar: lots of useful stuff on the ukhas wiki
[14:52] <jonsowman> jkominar: did clearing the predictor cache solve your problems?
[14:53] <jkominar> Yeah - I'm getting predictions again, thanks!
[14:53] <jonsowman> good stuff
[14:53] <jkominar> Question about the burst calculator on habhub.org: is the resulting neck lift value what I should see pulling upwards with or without the payload?
[14:53] <jonsowman> without
[14:54] <jkominar> ok - that's what I figured.
[14:54] <jonsowman> hang the value of neck lift from the balloon when filling
[14:54] <jonsowman> when it lifts off the ground, you're set
[14:54] <jonsowman> attach the payload and it'll go up at the ascent rate given
[14:55] <jonsowman> I advise reading the UKHAS guides on filling and sealing if you've not done this before
[14:55] <jonsowman> anyway, bbl
[14:55] <jkominar> will do, thanks jon! I'll be around over the next while for sure, as we get closer to our actual launch
[14:59] <eroomde> jonsowman: pong
[15:10] <NigeySWales> hey eroomde !
[15:11] <NigeySWales> hi jkominar
[15:11] Action: NigeySWales sends wind back to eroomde .. keep it there!
[15:11] Action: jkominar waves
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[15:12] <Dave-M0MYA> hello
[15:12] <NigeySWales> hmm what jon said just intrigued me, so you atatch something to the same value weight to the baloon when filling, once it lifts off the ground, swap it out for the payload?
[15:12] <NigeySWales> hey dave!
[15:13] <Dave-M0MYA> ello NigeySWales
[15:13] <Randomskk> NigeySWales: basically, like this
[15:14] <Randomskk> calc says "2kg of neck lift"
[15:14] <Randomskk> get two litre bottles of water
[15:14] <eroomde> hi NigeySWales
[15:14] <Randomskk> water is 1kg per litre
[15:14] <Randomskk> hang them in a plastic bag from the beck of your balloon
[15:14] <Randomskk> then inflate until the balloon just lifts the bottles up (and not more)
[15:14] <Randomskk> then, take your bottles off and replace with payload, done
[15:14] <Randomskk> for more precision, subtract the weight of your neck fitting
[15:14] <eroomde> 'lift off the ground' means: it's just the right side of neutrally bouyant with the ballast you have
[15:14] <NigeySWales> ahh i see, well that explains alot, thanks!
[15:15] <jkominar> but doesn't that leave you with no free lift?
[15:15] <jkominar> just a neutral boyancy?
[15:15] <Randomskk> jkominar: nope. the neck lift is the total lift, and is > weight of payload
[15:15] <eroomde> the ballast is both the payload weight + the calculated free lift
[15:15] <Randomskk> it gives you neutral boyancy for the test mass, but the payload weighs less
[15:15] <jkominar> oh ... I see
[15:16] <eroomde> Randomskk: next launch (decent weather launch) we should make a video tutorial on how to fill and how to launch
[15:16] <jkominar> good tip, thanks!
[15:16] <Randomskk> eroomde: jame's this saturday?
[15:16] <NigeySWales> eroomde, that would be a godsend i think
[15:16] <eroomde> not is the weather is bad
[15:16] <NigeySWales> for noobs like me anyway :/
[15:16] <Randomskk> eroomde: the guys yesterday did a video of the launch, zooming in on everything going on
[15:16] <Randomskk> I believe they were the paper planes people
[15:16] <eroomde> sort of want a really nice day where you can do a few takes and everything is nominal and you can demo positive bouyancy in still conditions
[15:17] <Randomskk> aiui their intention in videoing was so they could repeat the process, they looked like they knew what they were doing and steve was setting it all up properly
[15:17] <Randomskk> clear sky and almost no wind
[15:17] <Randomskk> if we could get the video off them, that'd be nice
[15:17] <eroomde> ok
[15:17] <NigeySWales> 1 thing i couldnt make out, and havent seen a closeup pic of is how the parachute attatches to the main line to keep it vertical on ascent, i assume you guys dont just dangle it over the side of the payload..lol
[15:17] <eroomde> it'll probs go up on projectspaceplanes.com
[15:17] <Randomskk> yea hopefully
[15:17] <eroomde> NigeySWales: good question actually
[15:17] <eroomde> there are a couple of ways
[15:17] <NigeySWales> some1 used a bottle cap but i couldnt visualise it :|
[15:17] <Randomskk> NigeySWales: typically the bottom of the parachute cords go to the payload and then some more cord goes between the top of the parachute and the balloon, but there are other options
[15:18] <eroomde> some lightly dangle, some (including me) put the parachute actually in-line on the suspension
[15:18] <eroomde> as if the parachute were part of the string
[15:18] <NigeySWales> ohh
[15:18] <eroomde> let me show you the nova 18 launch video
[15:18] <eroomde> should make it clear
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[15:19] <NigeySWales> please that would be most helpful
[15:19] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4721830907/in/set-72157624203062811/
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[15:19] <NigeySWales> Dave-M0MYA, the t68i came today, if i have a cable laying around ill try it out later
[15:19] <jgrahamc> Hello, eroomde. Didn't realize it was Ed.
[15:19] <Randomskk> eroomde: I got the connector for the load cell, it's a pretty epic connector
[15:19] <Randomskk> though has a screw end and no obvious way to do strain relief or indeed connect to a cable in any way besides the solder cups
[15:20] <eroomde> they're nice aren;t they. good connectors are so worth it
[15:20] <eroomde> NigeySWales: that's me in the stripey shorts
[15:20] <eroomde> so i'm holding the parachute (orange) right at the beginning of the video
[15:21] <eroomde> and letting it and the balloon up
[15:21] <eroomde> string from parachute apex to the balloon (10m long)
[15:21] <eroomde> then string from bottom of parachute to the payloads (20m long)
[15:22] <NigeySWales> yup, now it makes sense ! :D
[15:22] <jgrahamc> What sort of string are you using?
[15:22] <eroomde> Hi John
[15:22] <eroomde> nylon
[15:22] <eroomde> orange nylon
[15:23] <eroomde> oh hang on it might have been polypropylene. I can;t actually remember
[15:23] <NigeySWales> i was looking at the nylon cord on the site that sold the balloons..
[15:23] <eroomde> I got a 30m length from B&Q, whatever it is. We've never actually run into problems with glass transition temperatures
[15:24] <jgrahamc> IIRC it isn't very thick at all, right?
[15:24] <eroomde> We usually use something between 1 and 2mm diameter
[15:26] <jgrahamc> Seems terribly thin.
[15:26] <Dave-M0MYA> NigeySWales, good stuff, old bean! I thought of you and your phone last night and remebered this:
[15:26] <Randomskk> it's not really taking much load
[15:26] <eroomde> The breaking strain is probably at least and order of magnitude greater than its maximum loading
[15:27] <eroomde> which is the sort of safety factor used in man-rated stuff
[15:27] <Dave-M0MYA> http://finch.am/projects/arduinogsm/
[15:27] <jgrahamc> I assume that weight is an issue so you want the thinnest that won't break.
[15:27] <Dave-M0MYA> which may be a way to go if you struggle with the phone
[15:27] <Dave-M0MYA> just a bit of contingency :)
[15:27] <eroomde> jgrahamc: more or less, but as I say we've still at least a factor of 10, usually
[15:28] <NigeySWales> ohh now that looks fun if i break the phone
[15:28] <jkominar> Any guidelines for how much line length between balloon and chute, and then chute to payload?
[15:28] <jkominar> eroomde: your video link shows quite a long distance in between.
[15:28] <eroomde> jkominar: not in absolute lengths but if you put the chute 2/3 up then the balloon remnants shouldn't tangle with the payload of the chute
[15:28] <eroomde> too much
[15:29] <Randomskk> payload -- 20m -- parachute -- 10m -- balloon has been used
[15:29] <eroomde> so we ran, in that case, 20m from payload to chute and 10m from chute to balloon
[15:29] <eroomde> jkominar: the bigger length is to reduce the time period and angular deviation of the pendulumic swing
[15:29] <eroomde> sorry, *increase* the time period, and reduce the angle
[15:29] <Laurenceb_> NigeySWales: t68 working?
[15:30] <eroomde> in short it makes a slight better platform for cameras
[15:30] <jkominar> yup - makes complete sense
[15:30] <Dave-M0MYA> ahhhh - I always wondered why the string was so long!
[15:30] <NigeySWales> yup, it musve been completely flat and needed to charge a bit, runs fine, just looking for a local stockist for the cable
[15:30] <eroomde> Dave-M0MYA: yup. You can really get away with whatever you want
[15:30] <NigeySWales> my payload may be saved by a £5 phone, crazy eh!
[15:30] <Dave-M0MYA> makes perfect sense
[15:31] <eroomde> check out the 'Nova 10 Launch' video at the top of this page
[15:31] <eroomde> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/media
[15:31] <jkominar> and you attach the load line directly to the parachute, or does it run *through* it down to the actual payload?
[15:31] <eroomde> we wanted the platform to be super stable
[15:31] <Dave-M0MYA> I think the guy who did the "Brooklyn Space Program" attached his payload directly to the neck
[15:31] <Dave-M0MYA> at times the whole setup got inverted!
[15:31] <eroomde> so we had about 100m between balloon and payload, and massive streamers to damp swinging and twisting
[15:31] <eroomde> jkominar: it doesn;t run through, we attach at either end
[15:32] <eroomde> so the parachute is load bearing
[15:32] <Dave-M0MYA> ahh, streamers, also something I hadn't considered
[15:32] <jgrahamc> Interesting how strong thin climbing rope is: http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/productdetail/id_product/26773 2mm but 120 daN.
[15:33] <NigeySWales> 120 for 2mm :o
[15:33] <jkominar> Yeah - that what we were planning too ... that way you don't have to make some sort of soft connection between the parachute and the load line to keep it up and away from the payload during the ascent
[15:33] Action: Dave-M0MYA got a lot of shiny new electronic bits for his payload in the post today =)
[15:33] <NigeySWales> what arrived dave?!
[15:34] <Dave-M0MYA> :D NTX-2, LM135 temp sensors, and my FTDI UART prototyping board
[15:34] <Dave-M0MYA> just waiting for those darned connectors now, and my RH sensor
[15:34] <jgrahamc> I have a photo of the BallastHalo5 parachute in this blog post: http://blog.jgc.org/2010/07/ballasthalo-5-launch-afternoon-out.html
[15:35] <NigeySWales> oo you're gonna having fun tinkering then :D
[15:35] <Dave-M0MYA> nope - I have been making wine today
[15:35] <Dave-M0MYA> only just this moment sat down in the shack
[15:35] <jgrahamc> I need to buy an NTX-2 for my project. What's the best supplier in the UK?
[15:35] <Dave-M0MYA> radiometrix seems to be the cheapest
[15:35] <jgrahamc> They sell direct? Hadn't realized that.
[15:35] <Dave-M0MYA> a funny way of ordering, but very friendly and helpful
[15:36] <Dave-M0MYA> give them a ring and they'll get you sorted - ordered mine yesterday, came today
[15:36] <jgrahamc> Will do. Cheers. Although probably should wait for pay day first.
[15:36] <eroomde> yes their ordering system is 'charming' but they're efficient
[15:36] <Dave-M0MYA> in fairness, I ordered stuff from Farnell last night at about 10pm and it was here by lunchtime today!
[15:37] <NigeySWales> send some wine up dave it'll be nice and chilled on the way back down :p
[15:37] <Dave-M0MYA> lol
[15:38] <Dave-M0MYA> I am gonna make some toothpick people - one of me and one of the girl that really should be mine. Nothing says "I love you" like a voodoo doll thats been sent into space =D
[15:38] <NigeySWales> haha nice !
[15:39] <NigeySWales> i have a personal addition going in my payload, a promise i made to some1.
[15:39] <jgrahamc> I'm sending up a tiny Paddington Bear (to get my kids interested) wearing a space suit made by my mother (to keep her happy). Such a complex project!
[15:40] <NigeySWales> jgrahamc, my fiance wouldnt let me send her teddy :(
[15:40] <Dave-M0MYA> ha! that's spot on
[15:41] <eroomde> bears in space are not a good idea!
[15:41] <NigeySWales> ?
[15:42] <eroomde> it has the same affect as proximity to kitties (c.f. http://xkcd.com/231/ )
[15:43] <NigeySWales> haha !
[15:44] <NigeySWales> way out of my depth here and dont plan on using it but what exactly i sstv ?
[15:44] <jgrahamc> slow scan TV
[15:44] <eroomde> slow scan television
[15:44] <NigeySWales> just out of curiosity
[15:44] <eroomde> it's a way of sending pictures over low-bandwidth channels
[15:44] <jgrahamc> Is there anyone on who has a full ham license?
[15:44] <NigeySWales> so possible from a balloon payload?
[15:45] <eroomde> such is approximately 3KHz wide amateur radio bands
[15:45] <eroomde> NigeySWales: yes
[15:45] <eroomde> jcoxon flew just such a thing this year
[15:45] <NigeySWales> oh
[15:45] <eroomde> jkominar: yes
[15:45] <eroomde> sorry, jgrahamc yes, I do (M0TEK)
[15:45] <NigeySWales> eroomde, im guessing its a tad on the complex side?
[15:45] <Randomskk> I do apparently, M0RND
[15:45] <eroomde> NigeySWales: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/sets/72157624065248931/
[15:45] <eroomde> all sent via the radiometrix
[15:46] <eroomde> NigeySWales: it's not conceptually that tough, but it's certainly more work to implement
[15:46] <NigeySWales> crikey thats better quality than i thought
[15:46] <jgrahamc> Jolly good. What's the difference in syllabus (briefly) between full and intermediate? I can't see any use to the foundation license, so that begs the question of intermediate or full?
[15:46] <eroomde> NigeySWales: fsphil has been doing some really good work on digital sstv methods
[15:46] Action: Laurenceb_ wonders is more bandwidth would help
[15:47] <NigeySWales> digital.. mmm.. that would be great!
[15:47] <eroomde> jgrahamc: a bit more knowledge of the topologies of different types of mixers, ampifiers, filters and so on
[15:47] <eroomde> more in the way of regulations, Q-codes etc
[15:47] <eroomde> but it's not more than a couple of hours of cramming if you have a sciencey background
[15:48] <Randomskk> get the book, read it over an evening or maybe two
[15:48] <NigeySWales> you have to all that to get a license :o
[15:48] <Randomskk> the exam is multiple choice, no practical
[15:48] <NigeySWales> do+
[15:48] <eroomde> NigeySWales: this is for the full license
[15:48] <Randomskk> NigeySWales: a full license. foundation is much easier
[15:48] <eroomde> the foundation and intermediate are very easy indeed
[15:48] <jgrahamc> Which I do. Also, I studied electronics.
[15:48] <Randomskk> but like, the full exam still isn't that hard. it's very readily memorisable from the book and then doing the exam
[15:48] <jgrahamc> Which book is recommended?
[15:48] <Randomskk> there's like, a book. rsgb do it I guess?
[15:48] <jgrahamc> So, there's no longer a morse requirement?
[15:48] <Randomskk> it's the sequel to "foundation now" and something intermediatey
[15:48] <eroomde> yep, it'll be a walk in the park. just have to grok the topologies and cram the regulatory stuff
[15:48] <eroomde> jgrahamc: no morse
[15:49] <NigeySWales> oh i see, didnt realise you it had different levels as such, wow
[15:49] <Randomskk> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advance-Licence-Manual-Alan-Betts/dp/187230995X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c
[15:49] <jgrahamc> Pity. I have my grandfather's beautiful morse key that he used throughout WWII which I keep wanting to use.
[15:50] <Elwell> anyone know about french baloon launch regs?
[15:50] <Elwell> (launching in .fr, not who made the thing...)
[15:50] <eroomde> jgrahamc: nothing to stop you from learning!
[15:51] <jgrahamc> Whereabouts in France?
[15:51] <eroomde> i find it amazin that i can throw an arbitrary length of wire out of a 2nd storey window and pick up people sending morse in arizona
[15:51] <NigeySWales> :o what?!
[15:52] <NigeySWales> there was me amazed i could pick up more from my arduino on an am radio 2 ft away last night lol
[15:52] <Elwell> jgrahamc: uhm probably puy de dome (63) as its a bit less hilly than round here (betweeen Jura and the Alps)
[15:52] <NigeySWales> morse*
[15:52] <jgrahamc> OK, that's decided then. I'll study for the full license then.
[15:53] <jgrahamc> elwell: nice area. You speak French?
[15:53] <Randomskk> you do need the intermediate first, jgrahamc
[15:53] <Elwell> un peut
[15:53] <Randomskk> (and foundation)
[15:54] <jgrahamc> elwell: this thread talks about some people who've done this in France (http://forums.futura-sciences.com/astronautique/12370-construction-dun-ballon-de-haute-altitude.html)
[15:55] <eroomde> Elwell: A launch from there might take the balloon towards dijon, with the usual wind conditions
[15:55] <jgrahamc> randomskk: understood. Just wanted to gauge how much more difficult the full was
[15:56] <Randomskk> okay. really not much more difficult
[15:56] <eroomde> Elwell: I suspect if it lands in a grand cru vinyard that might go down worse than if it lands on a person :)
[15:56] <Randomskk> ...well. more difficult, but still not hard
[15:57] <Elwell> eroomde: also there's a big gap in APRS coverage in the middle -- I'd be more confident if there were more receivers (going on aprs.fi plots)
[15:58] <Elwell> well, they've harvested just now anyway :-)
[15:59] <eroomde> Elwell: true. My family (one half anyway) are from Mersault and we have a house in Savigny - I'd be happy enough to set up an aprs i-gate there
[15:59] <eroomde> that'd cover that patch nicely. though we are in a bit of a valley
[16:00] <eroomde> I'd be more convigning if I spelt Meursault correctly :)
[16:00] <Elwell> well, once I get my licence I plan to stick a gateway at home too
[16:00] <eroomde> convincing* I give up.
[16:03] <Elwell> eroomde: Savigny .ch or .fr?
[16:03] <eroomde> .fr
[16:03] <eroomde> Savigny-les-Beaune
[16:03] <Elwell> ok I'll wave in about 20 mins
[16:03] <eroomde> :)
[16:03] <eroomde> I'm in West Sussex (UK) right now - I live here
[16:03] <eroomde> but go out there a lot
[16:04] <Elwell> ah, not the one just south of geneva - no I won't thats a bit north
[16:04] <eroomde> You're going past on the autoroute?
[16:05] <Elwell> yeah, geneva -> clermont ferrand. Just trying to decide between normal 'go south round Lyon' or head in and cut off St Etienne
[16:06] <eroomde> Have never taken that route, so I can't much help. Do you work in Geneva then?
[16:06] <Elwell> yeah
[16:07] <Elwell> right, offski anyway
[16:07] <eroomde> see you
[16:11] <NigeySWales> cya Elwell
[16:12] <NigeySWales> eroomde, looking around, is there some kind of shortage of totex baloons or something? :|
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[16:22] <eroomde> NigeySWales: I think so a bit
[16:22] <eroomde> Well I think Kaymont are being awkward
[16:22] <NigeySWales> ohh
[16:22] <eroomde> so Totex from the far east are becoming a supplier
[16:22] <eroomde> i think they're more expensive though
[16:22] <NigeySWales> well i wont need mine for a while was looking for price info and noticed lots of out of stock notices
[16:24] <eroomde> it's best to email steve directly I think
[16:24] <Laurenceb_> launch is 100% on for saturday then?
[16:24] Action: Laurenceb_ is ordering train tickets
[16:24] <NigeySWales> ah oki
[16:24] <Laurenceb_> £30 return from derby - not horrible
[16:26] <NigeySWales> hm that yaseu 790 still at £46 with 3 days left :D
[16:33] <Laurenceb_> right booked
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> NigeySWales: Never bid early - only snipe.
[16:33] <Laurenceb_> plusbus is neat
[16:34] <Laurenceb_> http://www.plusbus.info/derby-plusbus
[16:34] <NigeySWales> SpeedEvil, learnt my lesson on that a while back, ill wait till the last minute or so, any idea what these normally go for? i dont to overbid
[16:34] <NigeySWales> +want
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> No clue.
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> Look at completed auctions.
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: how large is that area - population?
[16:36] <SpeedEvil> I get a days travel in Fife - ~500 square miles - for 6.80
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> yes, but plusbus is £2.60
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> added to your rail fair
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> that's a neat tie.
[16:37] <SpeedEvil> It's not linkable here
[16:38] <NigeySWales> under £100 seems to be reasonable
[16:38] <SpeedEvil> Or poke Laurenceb with a sharp stick until he delivers a USB stick. :)
[16:39] <jgrahamc> OK. I am going to sign off. See you all another time.
[16:39] <SpeedEvil> wave!
[16:40] <NigeySWales> bye jgrahamc !
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[16:48] <NigeySWales> hi Zuph
[16:48] <Zuph> hello
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[17:56] <Randomskk> eroomde: you're completely right, proper connectors are totally where it is at
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[17:57] <Randomskk> this connector is really nice but now I'm looking at proper ethernet ones and they are also excellent
[17:58] <Randomskk> IP68 is clearly the way to go
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> IP99
[18:00] <SpeedEvil> Protected against relatavistic sprays of hot antimatter.
[18:04] <Zuph> Connectors are a pain :(
[18:04] <eroomde> Randomskk: after the blimp I managed to persuade the group that 20% of the budget for blimp v2 should be on connectors
[18:05] <eroomde> not one of them blinked an eyelid
[18:05] <eroomde> as soon as you've experienced using connectors on complex mechatronics things in the field, you *KNOW* that good quality connectors are where it's at
[18:06] <eroomde> it's a good way to spot the armchair engineers - they balk at the idea
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[18:10] <SpeedEvil> yeah
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[18:10] <SpeedEvil> Unless you can live with soldering everything, then connectors are a bitch.
[18:10] <NigeySWales> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/11734434
[18:10] <NigeySWales> heh
[18:11] <jerry507_mac> I don't like connectors generally
[18:12] <jerry507_mac> I have rarely found connectors with better reliability than wires
[18:12] <jerry507_mac> So I avoid both as much as possible
[18:12] <russss> I am pro-connectors.
[18:12] <Zuph> We probably spent a pretty dedicated week and a half to scouring the internet before we found a series of connectors which met our specifications, was available, wasn't impossible to assemble with hand tools, and wasn't $10 a set.
[18:12] <russss> having worked as a sound engineer
[18:12] <jerry507_mac> Lol
[18:12] <jerry507_mac> Sound connectors tend to be better than most
[18:12] <Zuph> So, me and connectors aren't on good terms right now.
[18:12] <jerry507_mac> But they're ridiculously big
[18:13] <jerry507_mac> We found some nice circular connectors finally
[18:13] <jerry507_mac> They are terrible for low pin counts because they're huge but they get more manageable as the number of pins goes up
[18:14] <jerry507_mac> Zuph: But that's what you need to do if you're going to use them :)
[18:14] <jerry507_mac> You should be proud for actually finding decent connectors
[18:16] <Randomskk> Zuph: is $10 a set not enough or too much?
[18:16] <jerry507_mac> That's a lot
[18:16] <jerry507_mac> 5$ per gender, blech
[18:17] <Zuph> *Someone* needs to aggregate a short-list of connectors which are available and appropriate for amateur/hobbyist use. 90% of the work was wading through connectors which meet spec, but aren't sold by distributors, or require $500 tools to assemble, or have housings and connectors available, but not crimp connectors, etc. etc.
[18:17] <Zuph> Randomskk: $10 is way too much!
[18:17] <Randomskk> jerry507_mac: the connectors I'm eyeballing are £20+ per gender
[18:17] <Zuph> The connectors we ended up with are about $0.75 a set.
[18:19] <jerry507_mac> So you want to spend 40$ on a complete pair of connectors?
[18:19] <Randomskk> £
[18:19] <jerry507_mac> Lawl
[18:20] <jerry507_mac> Frankly that's pretty crazy
[18:20] <Randomskk> you should see the connectors
[18:20] <jerry507_mac> One pair of connectors would be pretty close to the most expensive thing on our balloon
[18:20] <Randomskk> this isn't really for ballooning directly
[18:21] <jerry507_mac> Is it for some kind of government project?
[18:21] <jerry507_mac> Only way that makes sense :)
[18:21] <Randomskk> haha
[18:21] <jerry507_mac> So what makes them so expensive?
[18:22] <Randomskk> they are totally waterproof and dustproof ethernet connectors
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[18:22] <Randomskk> well, rj45
[18:23] <jerry507_mac> I've looked at those before, I recall them being pricey when I looked too
[18:25] <Randomskk> mmm
[18:25] <Randomskk> these other connectors are what are on our load cells, can't change them, £12 for the connector + £4 for a cable gland
[18:25] <Randomskk> and solder cups at that, bit of a pain
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[18:50] <eroomde> jerry507_mac: not crazy at all
[18:50] <natrium42> who?
[18:51] <eroomde> we're look at connectors for airship v2 that are £20 ea, say
[18:51] <eroomde> and there are an awful lot on quite a complex mechatronic beasie like that
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[18:51] <jerry507_mac> I'm sure there are a lot of complicated connectors out there
[18:52] <jerry507_mac> Doesn't mean I'd ever pay 20$ for a male/female pair
[18:52] <eroomde> it really does seem to cost that much to get connectors that can be reliably plugged and unplugged hundreds of times in the field, that can take direct sunlight, very low temps, decent current etc
[18:52] <eroomde> this is what I mean about 20% of the budget on connectors
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[18:52] <eroomde> and the blimp is a several tens of thousand euro prooject
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[18:54] <jerry507_mac> Why do you need so many connectors?
[18:54] <jerry507_mac> That is probably the number one question you look at
[18:54] <eroomde> just the way it works out when you see all the things that need connections
[18:56] <jerry507_mac> So integrate them
[18:57] <jerry507_mac> Wherever possible
[18:57] <eroomde> good idea - we'll try and take a fully assembled airship through heathrow airport
[18:57] <eroomde> and see if they'll put it in the hold for us
[18:57] <jerry507_mac> That's what shipping companies are for
[18:58] <jerry507_mac> Sounds like for the amount you're spending on connectors, you could integrate and pay for the shipping
[18:59] <eroomde> i don;t believe so - there is a life of maybe five to ten field trips in thsi thing to variosu bits of the world
[18:59] <eroomde> we check the thing in baggae dissassembled
[19:00] <jerry507_mac> It sounds like you're driving your choice of connectors from an arbitrary choice you made to be ultra portable
[19:00] <eroomde> well I'm not making myself clear then as that's quite incorrect
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[19:01] <Randomskk> integrating has its own problems, too
[19:01] <jerry507_mac> It does, it takes a lot longer
[19:01] <jerry507_mac> But it's cheaper, weighs less and costs less
[19:01] <jerry507_mac> Said twice for impact :)
[19:01] <Randomskk> it's not always cheaper, especially when you need to update or redo a part of the system
[19:01] <jerry507_mac> *It's smaller
[19:01] <Randomskk> a fully integrated system requries a full replacement to update any given part
[19:01] <eroomde> a) man hours >> components in terms of price
[19:02] <eroomde> b) the trips have different requirements so flexibility of reconfiguration is a must
[19:02] <jerry507_mac> Funny thing is, it's actually not particularly expensive to ship stuff air freight across the world
[19:02] <eroomde> c) needing to get up to remote sites with glaciers is why we're funded - ultra-portability isn't an arbitrary design decision, its a massive design driver - they don't drop off shipping containers to these places
[19:03] <jerry507_mac> You're obviously happy with your choice
[19:04] <jerry507_mac> But you're on the 80%+ part of the curve
[19:04] <eroomde> oh for sure
[19:04] <jerry507_mac> Where the last 20% of your performance on a single system is 20% of your entire budget
[19:04] <jerry507_mac> Which is crazy for 80% of requirements
[19:04] <eroomde> if we weren't they could do this kind of thing off the shelf
[19:06] <eroomde> it's the same kind of desin drivers you get for military hardware - and it's mil-spec rated connectors that are the ones that cost £20 a pop.
[19:10] <jerry507_mac> Also, what kind of glacier are you flying to that has checked baggage?
[19:11] <jerry507_mac> The military has long since had major efforts to reduce the number of connectors necessary
[19:12] <jerry507_mac> Both for weight and reliability issues
[19:12] <eroomde> alps, various in norway
[19:12] <jerry507_mac> Car industry is the same way, actually
[19:13] <jerry507_mac> I can only think of a few places where connectors have remained a significant part of a products design
[19:13] <eroomde> yep but car industry spends billions on development on a car and once it's designed it's rarefly altered
[19:13] <eroomde> this is quite different
[19:14] <jerry507_mac> You're at least using some kind of bus right?
[19:14] <jerry507_mac> CAN or something
[19:14] <eroomde> this is 3 or 4 post docs for a few months having to constantly reconfigure things and test new things - it's a research vehicle
[19:14] <jerry507_mac> So you can standardize your connectors to a single four pin unit or something
[19:14] <eroomde> where possible of course
[19:15] <jerry507_mac> It should always be possible
[19:15] <eroomde> but there are 3 x 400MBit cameras on booms for the stero mapping
[19:15] <eroomde> just for example
[19:15] <eroomde> which is an entirely different thing to getting signals to the rear tail control surfaces
[19:16] <jerry507_mac> For any application with a data rate less than 1mbit, you can use the same bus
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[19:17] <eroomde> yes i know
[19:17] <jonsowman> hi rjharrison_
[19:17] <eroomde> but this is a different argument that physical connectors
[19:17] <rjharrison_> Hi
[19:17] <rjharrison_> Hows it going
[19:17] <jonsowman> very well thanks, yourself?
[19:17] <rjharrison_> I gather all went well yesterday
[19:17] <jonsowman> yep perfect launch
[19:17] <rjharrison_> evening ed
[19:18] <jerry507_mac> Bus choice and connector choice go hand in hand
[19:18] <jerry507_mac> If you've decided you want to use a lot of connectors, then you should still work to minimize their size and complexity where possible
[19:19] <jerry507_mac> Not to mention get your volume discounts
[19:23] <eroomde> jerry507_mac without meaning offense you're teaching your grandmother to suck eggs here. This is both true and obvious but there are other considerations here - for example it's high sensitive to mass trim so instead of having batterys 3m away from the main pods you have to run both 20A capable camble aswell as signals down to the end. That's a tricky thing to achive with a single, standard connector. I can promise you though that we're not making this
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[19:26] <rjharrison_> evening jcoxon
[19:26] <rjharrison_> I gather you were in cambridge yesterday
[19:26] <rjharrison_> Are we going to see action at the w/e
[19:26] <jcoxon> nope
[19:27] <rjharrison_> Oh opps
[19:27] <jcoxon> wasn't in cam
[19:27] <jcoxon> but planning to launch sat
[19:27] <rjharrison_> Cool
[19:27] <rjharrison_> Full ttracker
[19:27] <rjharrison_> Bloody windy here atm
[19:28] <rjharrison_> jcoxon, do you need any thing from me
[19:28] <jcoxon> not that i can think of
[19:28] <rjharrison_> Cool, i;ll clear the data down and everything else
[19:29] <jcoxon> thanks
[19:29] <rjharrison_> supper
[19:29] <eroomde> I should say (reading back to spot the cause of your ire) that 20% on connectors is not from the 30k euro as that includes some super expensive discrete components like the thermal camera which is about half of that money on its own, and is being provided by the funding agency. To give you an idea, the connector budget for us is about, in your money, $1300. Which I think is a bargain, truthfully.
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[19:34] <jcoxon> busy day on the channel it looks like
[19:35] <eroomde> quite
[19:35] <jcoxon> anything exciting
[19:35] <eroomde> nearly bought that yagi and boom. but then remembered I'm not spending money till next year
[19:35] <jcoxon> hehe
[19:36] <eroomde> I found a bug in wxpython on osx - i'm not sure if that counds as exciting
[19:36] <eroomde> I suspect not
[19:37] <eroomde> you? all chopped up successfully?
[19:37] <jcoxon> busy busy day
[19:37] <jcoxon> so many pictures
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[19:38] <Randomskk> eroomde: what yagi are you looking at?
[19:38] <eroomde> chopped off*
[19:38] <eroomde> Randomskk: same as you - with the fold-up-able elements
[19:38] <Randomskk> it is quite neat
[19:38] <eroomde> then the accessory boom and phasing harness for stacking
[19:38] <Randomskk> ah nice
[19:39] <eroomde> jcoxon and I yesterday got excited at the idea of a power-rangers style meeting of everyone with their yagis
[19:39] <Randomskk> hehe
[19:39] <eroomde> which compined with these booms
[19:39] <Randomskk> by our powers combined...
[19:39] <eroomde> into a ultra-mega-yagi-zoid
[19:39] <Randomskk> in a sense it's sad that a single handheld yagi is sufficient to track a balloon for the entire radio horizon
[19:40] <Randomskk> or even just a vertical
[19:40] <Randomskk> and one it's off the horizon or not line of sight you're stuffed even with many yagis
[19:40] <jonsowman> make the horizon further away then
[19:40] <jonsowman> :P
[19:40] <eroomde> yep, though it can really really make a difference sometimes
[19:40] <eroomde> eg bh5
[19:41] <eroomde> people were only just getting snippets of the descent - the most crucial bit
[19:41] <Randomskk> true
[19:41] <eroomde> with a bit more reach we might have got a whole string
[19:42] <eroomde> and in really high humidity or cloudy conditions it makes a difference
[19:42] <Randomskk> it also looks damn cool and lets you get silly S meter readings
[19:44] <eroomde> hmm. i think s-meters measure absolute power rather than SNR?
[19:44] <Randomskk> more yagis would pick up more absolute power though, wouldn't they?
[19:44] <eroomde> as they're a function of the AGC
[19:45] <eroomde> sure, but i've never got more than very little from a balloon in flight
[19:45] <eroomde> even with great SNR
[19:45] <eroomde> it's still only about S1
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[19:45] <Randomskk> true
[19:46] <Randomskk> meant to ask about this, actually: how do you actually connect the multiple stacked yagis?
[19:46] <eroomde> that was quite a nit-picking point, i ask more out of curiosity as it's not something i've thought about much
[19:46] <eroomde> you need to phase them together - which is to say change their impedance
[19:46] <eroomde> so that you still present 50 ohms to the transceiver
[19:47] <eroomde> you can do this with 1/4 lengths of specific co-ax (specific in the sense of r1 and r0 ratio of the conductors)
[19:48] <eroomde> if memory serves that's a good link - can't check myself as my vm is crippling the rest of my mac and don;t want to open it up
[19:48] <Randomskk> okay, thanks
[19:49] <jonsowman> Randomskk: what's the irssi config option for hilighting the whole line on mention?
[19:49] <jonsowman> do you remember?
[19:49] <eroomde> oh me too please
[19:50] <Randomskk> /help hilight
[19:50] <Randomskk> -line: Hilight the whole line with the hilight color.
[19:50] <Randomskk> not sure how to edit an existing one
[19:50] <Randomskk> it's per-highlight
[19:50] <Randomskk> you just put -line in there and it does the whole line
[19:51] <jonsowman> thanks
[19:51] <jonsowman> can you mention me please
[19:51] <jonsowman> :)
[19:51] <jcoxon> sugar this balloon is going to go far...
[19:51] <Randomskk> jonsowman: hi jonsowman
[19:52] <eroomde> Randomskk: can you try me?
[19:52] <Randomskk> eroomde: sure
[19:52] <eroomde> and again?
[19:52] <Randomskk> eroomde: repeat
[19:53] <eroomde> nvm. will play with this later
[19:53] <eroomde> hi rjharrison_ sorry, wasn't ignoring you
[19:53] <eroomde> just working my way back through the stack
[19:53] <jonsowman> not working
[19:53] <jonsowman> google time
[19:53] <eroomde> jonsowman: me neither. shout if you find a fix
[19:53] <jonsowman> will do
[19:56] <Randomskk> my config file has
[19:56] <Randomskk> hilights = ( { text = "Randomskk"; nick = "no"; word = "no"; } );
[19:58] <jonsowman> so does mine
[19:59] <jonsowman> hilights = ( { text = "jonsowman"; nick = "no"; word = "no"; } );
[19:59] <Randomskk> and nothing else?
[19:59] <jonsowman> nowt else
[20:00] <jonsowman> brb
[20:00] <Randomskk> also set hilight_nick_matches to no
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[20:00] <Laurenceb> hi
[20:00] <Randomskk> yo
[20:01] Action: Laurenceb just finished the sdr enclosure - used milliput to solve the threaded holes issue
[20:01] <Randomskk> nice
[20:01] <Laurenceb> milliput into the holes, then drill when it hadnt fully gone off
[20:01] <Laurenceb> and stick the M2 machine screws in then ake them out and leave to set fully
[20:01] <Laurenceb> seems to be pretty strong
[20:02] <Laurenceb> im kind of annoyed at seeedstudio tho
[20:03] <Laurenceb> they hadnt even threaded them as M3 - it was some really odd thread inbetween the two
[20:04] <eroomde> 2.5?
[20:04] <Randomskk> eroomde: try /set hilight_nick_matches off
[20:04] <Laurenceb> http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/aluminium-case-for-small-projects-1137025-mm-p-154.html?cPath=119_123
[20:04] <Randomskk> (after having set a hilight on 'ermoode')
[20:05] <Laurenceb> eroomde: is there such a thread size?
[20:05] <eroomde> 2.5 is surprisingly common as there's there's >x2 tensile strength difference between M2 and M3
[20:05] <Laurenceb> interesting
[20:05] <eroomde> yep you see them around quite a lot
[20:06] <eroomde> i know - annoying huh?
[20:06] <Laurenceb> i might try and get the milliput out and find some m2.5 machine screws then at some point
[20:06] <eroomde> catches people out the first time
[20:06] <Laurenceb> i guess they shipped it with the wrong screws - easy mistake to make
[20:06] <Laurenceb> rather than using a weird tap
[20:07] <jcoxon> rjharrison_, any chance you could clear view.php
[20:07] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: what time are you launching?
[20:07] <Laurenceb> on saturday
[20:07] <jcoxon> 14:00 - 14:30
[20:07] Action: Laurenceb has booked train arriving 10.40am
[20:08] <eroomde> in time for brunch
[20:08] <Laurenceb> heh awesome
[20:08] <Laurenceb> i didnt think of that - churchill brunch is brilliant
[20:08] <Laurenceb> brb
[20:08] <jcoxon> we are going to met at 12:00
[20:09] <eroomde> you'll need to find a churchill native to pay
[20:09] <eroomde> well you can pay cash but it's more expensive
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[20:16] <fsphil> I hope the weather improves before then
[20:20] Action: LazyLeopard suspects the trees will have far fewer leaves by the morning... It's howling out there...
[20:21] ech0s (57033dc9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.3.61.201) joined #highaltitude.
[20:21] <ech0s> hello
[20:21] <NigeySWales> 60mps gusts already down here :(
[20:21] <NigeySWales> hi ech0s
[20:21] <fsphil> yea nasty here atm
[20:21] <ech0s> i'm planning a launch
[20:22] <NigeySWales> i blame eroomde, he sent us this weather!
[20:22] <ech0s> now i'm focusing on radio modules
[20:22] <ech0s> do you think this radiometrix TX2-433-40-5V it's good for high altitude?
[20:23] <ech0s> i saw tha t ukhas are reccomending the NTX2 as radio module
[20:23] <eroomde> sorry about that
[20:23] <NigeySWales> yup, i have the 434.650 ntx2 as recommended by these guys
[20:24] <ech0s> do you think that the older TX2 is as good as the NTX2?
[20:25] <eroomde> ech0s: avoid the TX2
[20:25] <eroomde> the reason is because, as you can see on the block diagram on the radiometrix product page, there is no voltage controlled oscillator on the input
[20:26] <eroomde> so you can't actually set the frequency, instead it looks like it just turns the radio off and on
[20:27] <eroomde> this is bad as we tend to use amateur radio protocols like RTTY to communicate from the balloon to the ground, and they have quite specific frequency requirements - you jump between one frequency and another frency say 300Hz higher - the jumps back and forth, which sound like a warble, are how the data is encoded
[20:28] <ech0s> yeah i know :)
[20:28] <eroomde> with the NTX2, you have the voltage controlled oscilaltor on the input, which allows you to put a certain voltage in and get a certain frequency out. By toggling the input between two specific voltages you can generate the two specific frequencies for radio teletype
[20:28] <eroomde> oh sorry right - didn;t know if you were a ham or not
[20:28] <ech0s> lol
[20:29] <eroomde> h'ok, well the summary for hams is that you want the one with the vco
[20:29] <ech0s> thank you for your explanation
[20:29] <eroomde> which is the ntx2
[20:29] <ech0s> ok, thank you very much!
[20:29] <eroomde> np :)
[20:29] <eroomde> didn't mean to sound patronising
[20:29] <ech0s> i'm trying to make this project as cheaper as possible...
[20:30] <ech0s> don't worry :D
[20:30] <eroomde> sure, quite understand! you could use an OOK protocol lik hellschreiber
[20:30] <eroomde> ad use the tx2
[20:30] <eroomde> sorry my typing isn't great
[20:30] <ech0s> i just wanted to know if TX2 has some problems up there
[20:31] <eroomde> if it's the same sort of thing as the ntx2 in terms of components and layout, it should be fine - we almost all use the ntx2 and it's one of the most reliable bits
[20:32] <ech0s> ty
[20:32] <eroomde> where abouts are you based, if you don't mind me asking?
[20:32] <ech0s> is there a reliable cheap gps unit too?
[20:32] <ech0s> i'm italian
[20:32] <NigeySWales> plus if you buy a ntx2 it comes in a funky lil black hard case :D
[20:33] <eroomde> w're all big fans of the ublox 5 chipset for which there's a gps called the FSA03
[20:33] <ech0s> there is a much more troble launching balloons
[20:33] <ech0s> here in italy becaus of terrain
[20:33] <eroomde> several gps units use the ublox 5 chipset but the FSA03 seems to be popular here, and cheap
[20:33] <eroomde> however the old venerable gps is the Lassen iQ
[20:33] <eroomde> i think you can fin d them for a bit cheaper than ublox 5. they're not as good and you need an external antenna. but they do the job
[20:34] <NigeySWales> lassen.. how much am i regretting buying that thing! lol
[20:34] <ech0s> why?
[20:34] <NigeySWales> it has tiny tiny pins and i could only get a smd header from the states
[20:35] <NigeySWales> brb
[20:38] <DanielRichman> I vaguley recall getting a cable as a free sample
[20:38] <eroomde> ech0s: my recommendation would be the FSA03 - it's a completely integrated unit
[20:38] <eroomde> and the helical antenna is nice
[20:39] <eroomde> and the ublox really is a robust gps chipset.
[20:39] <ech0s> i'll have a look on that
[20:39] <ech0s> i'm planning for a fast ascent and descent
[20:40] <ech0s> heare in italy we don't have so much space :D
[20:40] <ech0s> i think i'll add a flight termination unit
[20:44] <Laurenceb> FSA03 seems rather hard to obtain
[20:44] <Laurenceb> not sure if flcom are still making them
[20:44] <Laurenceb> *falcom
[20:45] <Laurenceb> ublox are shipping ublox6 samples, but pricey
[20:45] <NigeySWales> i found 0 stockists of the falcom when i was looking :(
[20:46] <ech0s> i found fsa03 on ebay
[20:46] <Laurenceb> im not 100% sure they are still making them
[20:47] <ech0s> they also sell it on an italian shop bu they are pricey
[20:47] <ech0s> http://www.futurashop.it/?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Velleman&gclid=CPm3vcnghJoCFdGR3wodcCfzFA
[20:47] <ech0s> i'm looking for ublox6
[20:48] <eroomde> Laurenceb: what's better about ublox 6? I thought they were just ublox 5 with a compass or something
[20:48] <eroomde> or in any case some kind of thing that made it easier for OEMs to integrate into satnavs but not actually useful for us
[20:48] <Laurenceb> its got a configurable timebase output
[20:48] <Laurenceb> up to 10khz
[20:49] <Laurenceb> also 5hz output (as opposed to 4 or 2 with flash) and 30 to 40% lower current draw
[20:49] <eroomde> oooh that bit's got my attention
[20:49] <Laurenceb> but they changed some of the firmware options and ubx config
[20:50] <Laurenceb> so you have to get special expensive version to do precision timing and raw output
[20:50] <Laurenceb> *versions
[20:51] <Laurenceb> im not sure how much that is really the case
[20:51] <Laurenceb> ublox5 said similar stuff, but if you sent them a nice email they would be happy to send you a new firmware binary with the features you wanted
[20:52] <eroomde> 40% lower current!
[20:52] <Laurenceb> yes 5 did eat a lot
[20:52] <eroomde> gps is the most thirsty thing on a minimal flight computer
[20:53] <Laurenceb> their engineers have been really helpful whenever ive exchanged emails
[20:53] <Laurenceb> bbl
[20:56] <eroomde> you can get it down to 23mA in power save mode
[20:56] <eroomde> which is nice
[20:56] <eroomde> but worst case during aquisition is about 150mA which is pretty dire
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[21:00] <rjharrison_> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/11734434
[21:00] <NigeySWales> hi rjharrison_ !
[21:00] <rjharrison_> Hi NigeySWales
[21:00] <jonsowman> rjharrison_: someone from the Telegraph called me about that today
[21:02] <rjharrison_> hehe :)
[21:02] <LazyLeopard> ...and the Mail ran a splash, too.
[21:03] <LazyLeopard> I pointed the (US-side) friend (who pointed me at the Mail story) at El Reg's page full of articles...
[21:04] <jcoxon> i got an email from the telegraph as well
[21:05] <NigeySWales> howcome it ook them SO long to pick up the story
[21:05] <NigeySWales> took*
[21:05] <jonsowman> beats me
[21:05] <eroomde> you assume they do research
[21:06] <NigeySWales> good point :p
[21:06] <eroomde> zis vas your first miztek
[21:06] <NigeySWales> lol
[21:06] <jonsowman> eroomde: mm true
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[21:10] <jcoxon> ping junderwood
[21:10] <jcoxon> oops
[21:10] <jcoxon> i wanted juxta
[21:11] <jcoxon> sorry
[21:11] <jonsowman> I keep doing that
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[21:11] <jcoxon> jonsowman, predicted flight path seems to be holding
[21:12] <jonsowman> jcoxon: great to hear
[21:12] <jonsowman> Churchill are fine with sat
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[21:12] <Randomskk> I'll phone cambridge tower tomorrow I guess
[21:12] <jcoxon> the only issue really is ground weather
[21:13] <Randomskk> are we trying this alternative launch method? I think it would handle worse launch weather, though obviously there's a limit
[21:13] <jcoxon> ping natrium42
[21:13] <Randomskk> filling's still a pita too
[21:13] <jcoxon> Randomskk, yes
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[21:13] <jonsowman> we'll do the NOTAM tomorrow
[21:13] <jcoxon> i was thinking - we could fill in one of the courts in churchill
[21:13] <jcoxon> then walk it out
[21:13] <Randomskk> yea probably
[21:13] <jcoxon> as we need to get the fill right to get 2m/s
[21:13] <eroomde> jcoxon: i think the high clearence might be prohibitive
[21:14] <eroomde> height*
[21:14] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:14] <jcoxon> or perhaps by the moller centre, there is a bit wih quite a lot of cover at the walk throuh from the carpark
[21:15] <eroomde> yes
[21:16] <eroomde> or on the other side there is a concave impression
[21:16] <eroomde> just off the path
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[21:16] <eroomde> baked by a glass corridor
[21:17] <eroomde> http://www.cambridge2000.com/cambridge2000/images/0003/P3310407.jpg
[21:17] <eroomde> the white bit about 1/3 of the way along
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[21:35] Action: Hibby has 70cm working on the ground station. Hurrah!
[21:35] <Laurenceb> tbh im not convinced by El Reg
[21:35] <Hibby> jcoxon: how's saturday looking?
[21:36] <Laurenceb> in fact i wouldnt put it past them to have planed the glider in those woods
[21:36] <Laurenceb> *planted
[21:36] <GW8RAK> With this wind, I'm glad my aerials aren't up.
[21:36] <jcoxon> looking okay
[21:36] Action: Hibby read up, never mind
[21:36] <GW8RAK> Either they or the rotator would break.
[21:36] <jcoxon> http://habhub.org/files/output12896586001289509725.kml
[21:36] <Laurenceb> whats the wind looking like 2morrow?
[21:37] <Hibby> Mine are paid for by the tax payer
[21:37] <eroomde> :)
[21:37] <Hibby> ..."mine"
[21:37] <Laurenceb> wow ok, strong
[21:38] <Hibby> wind up here's not too bad oddly
[21:38] <jcoxon> for saturday we are going to need to rely on other hams
[21:38] <jcoxon> as this is going to move very fast
[21:38] <GW8RAK> Currently blowing 35knot plus with gusts to 45.
[21:38] <GW8RAK> It's windy.
[21:38] <Laurenceb> jcoxon: are you actually planning to land in denmark?
[21:38] <Hibby> jcoxon: predicted direction is?
[21:39] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, not sure where it'll land...
[21:39] <jcoxon> not aiming to get it back
[21:39] <Laurenceb> is it ballasted?
[21:39] <jcoxon> no
[21:39] <jcoxon> its to test my new flight computer
[21:39] <jcoxon> and to test the concepts of long range 70cm
[21:39] <Laurenceb> ah, but you'll lose it lol
[21:39] <jcoxon> i've got 10
[21:39] <Laurenceb> fsa03 onboard as well?
[21:39] <jcoxon> yup
[21:40] <jcoxon> never going to get another chance to fly
[21:40] <jcoxon> work etc
[21:40] <Laurenceb> your throwing away a precious fsa03 - they mnight not be made anymore !
[21:40] <Laurenceb> guess it was cheap
[21:40] <jcoxon> got a spare
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[21:40] <GW8RAK> Can;t you find a day when it will end up in North Wales?
[21:40] <Laurenceb> yeah -i have a few
[21:40] <jcoxon> GW8RAK, that won't happen till next summer
[21:41] <jcoxon> grrr don't have a ruler
[21:41] <GW8RAK> Unfortunately.
[21:41] <GW8RAK> But hopefully a launch over here will stay in the UK
[21:41] <Laurenceb> GW8RAK: theres a lot of flight corridors in that direction
[21:42] <Laurenceb> i think we prefer things to stay to the east
[21:42] <GW8RAK> That is the big problem. I've tried to get advice from the CAA, but nothing. So after Christmas, I'm just going to apply and they can approve or reject.
[21:44] <Laurenceb> other issue with wales is all the hills
[21:44] <Laurenceb> breaks up the signal once it gets low
[21:44] <GW8RAK> That's why I'm having a backup mobile on board
[21:44] <GW8RAK> From here, there is an excellent radio horizon.
[21:44] <fsphil> when applying for the notam for a floating flight, should you mention that fact?
[21:44] <jcoxon> no
[21:44] <Randomskk> once floating it makes no difference, you're already so high
[21:44] <fsphil> yea
[21:44] <jcoxon> it'll just confuse matters
[21:44] <fsphil> I've a flight coming up in december, considering making it a floater
[21:45] <fsphil> the last notam I got mentioned I was only allowed 100km range
[21:45] <jcoxon> that is true
[21:45] <jcoxon> this flight for example is off out of the UK
[21:45] <jcoxon> so the current feeling is that its okay
[21:45] <fsphil> well I suppose a floating flight from here will briefly leave the UK
[21:46] <jcoxon> its a little grey purely as its not really normally done
[21:47] <fsphil> the plan is to have a cut-down to stop it going beyond england
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[21:51] <fsphil> though to be honest if the winds are right it doesn't need to be a floater
[21:51] <fsphil> but that's no fun
[21:51] <jcoxon> anyone registered on global tuners?
[21:56] <GW8RAK> No, but just googled it.
[21:56] <fsphil> just did, waiting authorisation
[21:57] <fsphil> been meaning to do that for ages
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[22:15] <griffonbot> Received email: SebSahlin <seb.sailorboy@gmail.com> "Re: GPS/Balloon tracing help"
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[22:29] <NigeySWales> hi juxta
[22:29] <juxta> morning
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[22:38] <jonsowman> juxta: yo
[22:38] <jonsowman> you got the predictor working in the end then?
[22:38] <juxta> morning jonsowman, yep, working a treat now :)
[22:38] <jonsowman> excellent
[22:38] <juxta> let me find the line in question that was throwing things...
[22:38] <jonsowman> what was the c assertion issue?
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[22:39] <juxta> https://github.com/jonsowman/cusf-standalone-predictor/blob/master/predict.py#L236
[22:39] <juxta> when I changed the path in that line I put a space in between '-i' and the path
[22:39] <jonsowman> ahhh
[22:40] <jonsowman> yes that breaks things
[22:40] <juxta> I see that now ;p
[22:40] <jonsowman> hehe sorry
[22:40] <jonsowman> I wouldn't have spotted it
[22:40] <juxta> no worries, my mistake, I just spaced it because I thought it looked neater :)
[22:41] <jonsowman> glad it's all working anyway
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[22:41] <NigeySWales> grr someone has bumped the 790 price up to 70 quid with 3 days left :(
[22:42] <jonsowman> NigeySWales: still pretty cheap on the whole
[22:42] <NigeySWales> oh aye, definately
[22:42] <NigeySWales> i missed 1 .. 3 days ago that went for 90 i think it was
[22:45] <eroomde> £150 was about the going rate, a couple of years ago at least
[22:45] <jonsowman> oh I want a radio
[22:45] <jonsowman> I can't afford one :(
[22:48] <NigeySWales> 150 is about all i can afford this close to xmas
[22:52] <juxta> jonsowman, whoops, got distracted there
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[22:52] <juxta> thanks for you help in getting it all working again
[22:52] <jonsowman> no worries I didn't really do anything!
[22:52] <jonsowman> am planning to implement some of the new features at Xmas
[22:53] <juxta> I was actually thinking too - you mentioned the binary tends to get slow/crash when there's a large amount of gfs data to scan?
[22:53] <jonsowman> I did?
[22:53] <juxta> oh
[22:53] <juxta> someone did
[22:53] <juxta> maybe not you
[22:53] <juxta> haha
[22:53] <jonsowman> I don't think I've had that issue... there's a cronjob to keep the cache size down
[22:53] <juxta> yeah
[22:55] <jonsowman> it just seems to crash on bad data
[22:57] <juxta> the issue I most commonly find is that I run a few predictions, variations on the same scenario (just altering asc rate, max alt etc), then it'll start to crash
[22:57] <jonsowman> hmm
[22:57] <jonsowman> that definitely shouldn't happen, it should just used cached data
[22:57] <juxta> yeah, that was my thinking too
[22:57] <juxta> i'll try replicate it now
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[23:00] <jonsowman> okay
[23:00] <NigeySWales> the predictor is open source?
[23:00] <The-Compiler> yep
[23:00] <NigeySWales> wow
[23:00] <jonsowman> indeed
[23:01] <juxta> it's making a liar out of me jonsowman :)
[23:01] <jonsowman> hehe typical
[23:01] <Randomskk> the caching is a "feature" it has to be said
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[23:02] <Randomskk> it patches into the loaded version of the http library to override its caching mechanism to force it to cache GFS data which is otherwise marked by noaa as "no-cache"
[23:02] <jonsowman> juxta: if it happens again give me a shout
[23:02] <juxta> will do
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[23:04] <juxta> jonsowman, i like the way the debug lists what model was used :)
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[23:04] <jonsowman> yes, it's useful to have that. I implemented that and showing the time that the prediction was run because of user feedback after the release
[23:05] <juxta> good thinking
[23:06] <juxta> what are the new planned features if I can ask?
[23:06] <jonsowman> http://github.com/jonsowman/cusf-standalone-predictor/issues
[23:06] <jonsowman> roughly sorted by priority
[23:07] <juxta> oh nice
[23:08] <juxta> the NOAA server status thing will be really good
[23:08] <jonsowman> heh yes
[23:08] <jonsowman> I just have absolutely no time to sit down and work on it during Uni terms
[23:09] <eroomde> jonsowman: without wishing to cause upset, the holidays aren;t much better this year :)
[23:09] <Randomskk> what D:
[23:10] Action: jonsowman jumps out of window
[23:10] <eroomde> it's ok, it's not bas bad as 3rd and 4th year where you have exams in week 0 of easter term
[23:10] <eroomde> you can say goodbye to any notion of a lent vacation
[23:10] <jonsowman> cry
[23:10] <jonsowman> forgot about that
[23:10] <Randomskk> well sure but at least 3rd and 4th year sound otherwise interesting and mostly not dull
[23:10] <eroomde> mmm 2nd year is a bit of a stinker
[23:11] <eroomde> gosh i get a funny feeling in my stomach just thinking about it
[23:11] <Randomskk> :|
[23:11] <eroomde> eutectic mixtures
[23:11] <eroomde> those bloody air-conditioning units
[23:11] <eroomde> where you have to calculate the dew point and entropy and other bullshit in various different parts
[23:11] <eroomde> aaaaaaargh
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[23:11] <jonsowman> havent got to that yet
[23:11] <jonsowman> will look forward to it. D:
[23:12] <eroomde> oh god it gets so much worse
[23:12] <juxta> sounds like you have fond memories eroomde ;p
[23:12] <eroomde> it's an aweful year
[23:12] <eroomde> juxta: in our course you don't specialise till 3rd and 4th year
[23:12] <juxta> yeah, similar here
[23:13] <eroomde> so you spend the 2nd year as an electronics or info theory or control kind of a guy having to suffer horrible thermodynamics of steam machines and stuff
[23:14] <juxta> ahh, right - we don't have to generalise so much I dont think
[23:14] <Randomskk> I don't think we could generalise any more while still being engineering
[23:14] <eroomde> essay questions of peritectic points! haha it's all coming back!
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[23:14] <eroomde> oh lord I hope to never have to suffer that again
[23:14] Action: SpeedEvil drops a turbogenerator eroomde.
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> ^on
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[23:15] <eroomde> oh deary me chaps. yeah try and grok michaelmas over the christmas vac cos it just comes think and fast in lent
[23:16] <jcoxon> this is depressing talk
[23:16] <eroomde> sorry this is hardly the conversation to have with you in week 4 blues
[23:16] <Randomskk> 'week 4'
[23:16] <jcoxon> not like you guys are doing a 'difficult' subject :-p
[23:17] <Randomskk> :P
[23:17] <jonsowman> urghhh
[23:18] <eroomde> yeah we can leave jcoxon to his degree in memorization
[23:18] <eroomde> whilst we worry about thinking-based problems
[23:18] <Randomskk> we have tables for that kind of stuff
[23:18] <jonsowman> lol
[23:18] <Randomskk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2X52rS-ZLE is kind of unfortunate, this expert witness won't divide 3 by 16 without his formula sheets
[23:19] Action: jcoxon isn't going to rise
[23:19] <eroomde> All together now, come on jcoxon
[23:19] <eroomde> 1,2,3: The toe bone connected to the heel bone,
[23:19] <eroomde> The heel bone connected to the foot bone,
[23:19] Upu (~Upu@ubn.upuaut.net) left irc:
[23:19] <eroomde> The foot bone connected to the leg bone,
[23:19] <jcoxon> did take me 6 years to learn that
[23:19] <eroomde> :p
[23:19] <jonsowman> hehe
[23:19] <juxta> hey jcoxon, when you get a chance to post those modules, could you send them by some express mail of some kind? I'll pay for the difference of course :)
[23:20] <jcoxon> haha of course
[23:20] <jcoxon> i'm so sorry
[23:20] <juxta> no problems :)
[23:20] <jcoxon> i just don't really exist between 9 - 5
[23:20] <jonsowman> juxta: out of interested, are you able to get hold of any lassen headers as well as the GPSes?
[23:20] <jcoxon> considering i start at 7.30 and finish at 7
[23:20] <jonsowman> s/interested/interest/
[23:20] <juxta> ahh that's a long day :(
[23:21] <juxta> jonsowman, not sure - better shoot off an email :)
[23:21] <jonsowman> if you wouldn't mind :)
[23:21] <jcoxon> the lassen headers are avaliable at toby.co.uk
[23:22] <jcoxon> hehe arhab.org flight announcement has assigned me an image, they kept getting annoyed that i didn't have a logo
[23:23] <jcoxon> http://www.arhab.org/ARHABlaunchannouncements.html
[23:23] <Randomskk> haha nice
[23:23] <jonsowman> a good choice
[23:23] <juxta> hehe, they assigned one to us too
[23:23] <juxta> not sure what it ended up being
[23:24] <LazyLeopard> Heh ;)
[23:24] <NigeySWales> jcoxon, i had to order my lassen headers from SF toby had sold out :/
[23:24] <jcoxon> oh
[23:24] <jcoxon> toby are usually the best for connectors
[23:24] <jonsowman> juxta: well if you can get the headers I'll grab a few of those from you too if that's alright
[23:25] <juxta> of course :)
[23:25] <eroomde> these are gonna have some serious airmiles
[23:25] <jonsowman> thank you very much :)
[23:25] <NigeySWales> i had an open order at sf anyway so didnt mind
[23:26] <eroomde> jonsowman: so you ever use wxpython?
[23:26] <jonsowman> I'm not a python person... yet
[23:26] <eroomde> i seem to have run into a fairly obvious bug on osx
[23:26] <jonsowman> I'm learning it
[23:26] <eroomde> oh ok
[23:26] <jonsowman> what's the bug?
[23:26] <eroomde> it runs fine on ubuntu and windows, but borks on osx
[23:26] <jonsowman> oh
[23:26] <jonsowman> how odd
[23:26] <eroomde> getting Menu object to display on snow leopard... so quite fundamental
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[23:27] <eroomde> nothing seems to inherit properly from wx.Menu
[23:27] <jonsowman> sounds fairly drastic
[23:27] <NigeySWales> jonsowman, if you cant get hold of any header i ordered 4, can send you 2 ...
[23:27] <jonsowman> NigeySWales: that's very kind of you
[23:27] <eroomde> and google is entirely swamped by messages saying 'wxPython is just borked on snow leopard don;t even bother' which isn't very reassuring
[23:27] <jonsowman> I'll see if juxta can get hold of some first :)
[23:28] <jonsowman> eroomde: heh
[23:28] <NigeySWales> okies :)
[23:29] <jcoxon> jonsowman, Randomskk, i'm thinking i might track from suffolk for the flight, after the launch
[23:29] <jonsowman> alright
[23:30] <jcoxon> rather than do an all nighter in cambridge like the old days
[23:30] <jonsowman> hehe don't blame you
[23:30] <jonsowman> we will see about the trackatron at CUED, I think Iain is on that
[23:30] <jcoxon> great
[23:30] <Randomskk> he is either on that or saying you need to get on that, jonsowman :P
[23:30] <jonsowman> point
[23:30] <jcoxon> tomorrow i'll submit to southgatearc
[23:31] <jcoxon> to recruit some listeners
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[23:33] <jcoxon> 1.5mm vent hole drilled
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[23:34] <fsphil> which way is it heading first jcoxon?
[23:35] <jcoxon> its going east
[23:35] <jcoxon> very east
[23:35] <fsphil> haha
[23:35] <fsphil> I'll try but don't hold much hope
[23:35] <jcoxon> towards norwich then out to sea the skimming the netherlands
[23:35] <jcoxon> then onwards
[23:35] <jcoxon> still a role for people even if out of radio range
[23:35] <fsphil> I'm on globaltuners now
[23:35] <jcoxon> great
[23:35] <jcoxon> there is a good netherlands radio
[23:35] <jcoxon> well placed at least
[23:36] <jcoxon> just need to loop it back into dl-fldigi
[23:36] <jcoxon> on osx i use soundflower to do that
[23:37] <juxta> what sort of flight time are you expecting jcoxon ?
[23:37] <jcoxon> well it depends if it floats
[23:37] <jcoxon> so we launch at 14:30
[23:38] <jcoxon> and it starts floating at 17:30
[23:38] <jcoxon> then in theory it should fly until ~ 07:00
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[23:39] <fsphil> drat, their' html5 player uses mp3 -- no workie in firefox
[23:39] <jcoxon> juxta, i worry that its just too long a flight
[23:39] <jcoxon> who knows where it'll go
[23:40] <juxta> :D
[23:40] <juxta> hehe
[23:40] <juxta> what's the situation with international notams?
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[23:41] <jcoxon> so this will fall under a lightweight balloon under ICOA rules
[23:42] <jcoxon> which allows it to cross borders
[23:43] <eroomde> night all. probably won't be online for a couple of weeks now
[23:43] <jcoxon> cya
[23:43] Nick change: mazzanet_ -> mazzanet
[23:43] <Randomskk> seeya
[23:44] <jcoxon> have a good time
[23:44] <eroomde> ty!
[23:44] <jonsowman> night eroomde, enjoy Sweden
[23:44] <jonsowman> Sweden...?
[23:44] <juxta> night eroomde
[23:44] <jonsowman> memory fail.
[23:44] <juxta> (where are you going?)
[23:44] <fsphil> urg, the sharing software uses mono
[23:47] <fsphil> and only supports oss, no alsa or pulseaudio
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[00:00] --- Fri Nov 12 2010