highaltitude.log.20101011

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[07:05] <m1x10> morning astronauts
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[07:25] <m1x10> does anyone know if AFSK mark/space freqs can be other than 1200/2200 ?
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[07:36] <juxta_> heya m1x10
[07:36] <juxta_> what's decoding your datastream?
[07:36] <juxta_> ping Darkside
[07:38] <m1x10> hi juxta_
[07:38] <m1x10> I got this radioshield thing: http://wiki.argentdata.com/index.php/Radio_Shield
[07:39] <m1x10> is prints me some aprs messages from various stations around me
[07:39] <m1x10> but it does not do the same with my aprs
[07:40] <m1x10> though my aprs messages are being successfully decodec by aprs.fi and mixW application
[07:42] <juxta_> hmm, I really know enough about ax25 or APRS to offer much advice there
[07:43] <m1x10> know or dont know?
[07:44] <juxta_> oops, don't really know!
[07:45] <m1x10> ah, ok
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[09:12] <Northgate> Hello All
[09:14] <m1x10> hi
[09:15] <Northgate> how are you?
[09:16] <m1x10> A bit boring today
[09:16] <m1x10> and u?
[09:19] <Northgate> still buzzing from fridays launch!
[09:19] <Northgate> first one for me
[09:23] <m1x10> ah
[09:24] <m1x10> My first flight, if everything is ok, will be launched at 2012 summer.
[09:25] <Northgate> well best of luck for that one :)
[09:27] <m1x10> hehe
[09:31] <m1x10> http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/isslivestream.asx
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[09:38] <Northgate> great link
[09:42] <m1x10> yeah
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[10:18] Action: Laurenceb is reading the fldigi rtty code
[10:19] <Laurenceb> it looks fairly sophisticated, but its using a form of fll of the afc... i suspect thats why the afc doesnt work well with ntx2 transmissions
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[10:28] <SpeedEvil> slews too fast?
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[10:36] <Laurenceb> it just jitters all over the place
[10:36] <Laurenceb> i think its as the radiometrix modules use a VCO
[10:36] <Laurenceb> so the phase tracking technique fldigi uses doesnt really work
[10:37] <Laurenceb> as there are weird phase shifts between bits
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[10:51] <SpeedEvil> how does trhat matter?
[10:51] <SpeedEvil> Oh - the phase jitter comes up as frequency jitter
[10:51] <SpeedEvil> which gets past the filter?
[11:00] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:01] <Laurenceb> the afc is basically looking at how the phase shifts over time
[11:01] <Laurenceb> if theres lots of weird phase shifts at each bit edge it gets upset
[11:02] <SpeedEvil> It's assuming there is a nice master clock constantly running basically.
[11:07] <Laurenceb> yeah, only true if your talking to another pc running lfdigi or similar
[11:13] <Laurenceb> it really need to look at signal power in different frequency bins
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> won't just beefing up the filter work?
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> though FFT/... is clearly better.
[11:21] <Laurenceb> yeah - migth just chuck the data into fldigi to test things
[11:22] <Laurenceb> tho i cant work out how to make it beghave like a sound card....
[11:22] <Laurenceb> need 16bit samples out
[11:22] <Laurenceb> and i have 8 bit I and Q registers
[11:22] <Laurenceb> with -ive and +ive frequency centered around 0hz
[11:23] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[11:24] <Laurenceb> you can multiply by a complex exponential and take the real part...
[11:24] <Laurenceb> but youll increase the maximum frequency above the nyquist..
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> Simply take the IQ, plot it as a vector, and multiply by another vector rotating at the desired frequency shift
[11:24] <Laurenceb> guess id need to use ffts
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> The abs value
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> Or am I confused again.
[11:25] <Laurenceb> thats pretty much what i described-
[11:25] <Laurenceb> the maximum frequency goes above the nyquist if you do that
[11:25] <Laurenceb> you need twice as many samples
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> hmm - true
[11:25] <Laurenceb> i think you can do it with a minimaL FFT
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> Interpolation won't work well
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> you'd need to run a sin(x)/x reconstruction or something rather than just simple
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> and at that point, FFT is probably easier
[11:26] <Laurenceb> convert to freucny space, move up and pad with some zeros
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[11:26] <Laurenceb> then ifft
[11:26] <Laurenceb> ill have to try it in matlab
[11:26] <Laurenceb> on python with numpy
[11:27] <Laurenceb> then just connect to the sound card as /dev/fakedsp.py or whatever
[11:28] <Laurenceb> guess i could pipe the output to the actual sound card as well
[11:30] <m1x10> hi
[11:30] <m1x10> my radio receiver is at 144.8mhz
[11:31] <m1x10> is it possible that i receive signal from 145.350mhz
[11:31] <juxta_> depends on how powerful the source is, how close you are to it and how good your radio is
[11:31] <juxta_> but if the conditions are right, yes
[11:32] <m1x10> radio is NRX1 from radiometrix
[11:32] <m1x10> with radioshield i can decode aprs message from the air
[11:32] <m1x10> and i got one message:
[11:33] <m1x10> SV2AGW-9>TP4P73:'2UM!5[>/]"4G}QRV145.350Mhz
[11:33] <m1x10> and
[11:33] <m1x10> SV7GBF-1>APU25N:;SV7GBF-L *081527z4039.97N/02254.50EmECHOLINK 144.725
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> basically, only if _really_ powerful and local
[11:34] <m1x10> dunno where they come from
[11:35] <Laurenceb> google maps
[11:36] <m1x10> the 4039.97N/02254.50E does not work on google earth, needs conversion.
[11:37] <m1x10> oh ok found online conversion tool
[11:39] <m1x10> ~4km
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> poland?
[11:39] <m1x10> me?
[11:39] <SpeedEvil> I'm just trying to work out in my head where that is
[11:39] <m1x10> the ECHOLINK 144.725 is ~4km from me
[11:39] <m1x10> its in thessaloniki/greece
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:40] <m1x10> try: 40.6661667°, 022.9083333°
[11:42] <m1x10> Also I got an aprs message from a station ~75km away
[11:42] <m1x10> SV2LLJ-2>APU25N:@102128z4037.91N/02204.22E_315/005g009t052r000p000P000h88b10111/NAOUSA WX by SV2LLJ
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> i would suspect that is relayed
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> though I don't know the format
[11:43] <Laurenceb> http://hackaday.com/2010/03/17/im-me-spectrum-analyzer/
[11:43] <m1x10> could be
[11:44] <Laurenceb> "It scans one frequency at a time"
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yeah - I saw that ages ago - I forgot about it
[11:44] <Laurenceb> fail - they are just using the rssi
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:44] <Laurenceb> not grabbing raw baseband
[11:44] <m1x10> SpeedEvil
[11:45] <m1x10> SpeedEvil, although i get aprs decoded from various stations
[11:45] <SpeedEvil> The above with the raw baseband, and the FFT will give you what - simply limited by the clock accuracy and integration time over the whole band/
[11:45] <m1x10> that radioshield thing does not decode messages from my aprs
[11:46] <m1x10> but my aprs get decoded 100% from aprs.fi and mixW application
[11:46] <m1x10> I mail that guy on argentdata.com but he delays a lot
[11:47] <m1x10> and im stuch here now
[11:48] <m1x10> stuck*
[11:48] <m1x10> cant build my aprs receiver
[12:08] <m1x10> no one can help :(
[12:08] <m1x10> what are options do I have to make an aprs receiver?
[12:08] <m1x10> what other options do I have to make an aprs receiver?
[12:08] <m1x10> arduino+radioshield=fail
[12:09] <m1x10> is there any commercial device that can take rf and convert it to aprs ?
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[12:48] <Laurenceb> hmf
[12:48] Action: Laurenceb is trying to work out how to get audio data into fldigi without a loopback cable
[12:48] <Laurenceb> on windows
[12:50] <SpeedEvil> can it open a file?
[12:53] <Laurenceb> not on windows
[12:53] <Darkside> does jack work on windows?
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[12:55] <Laurenceb> i dont have a loopback jack
[12:55] <jshriver> Top of the morning to you all
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[12:58] Action: SpeedEvil ponders...
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1KW-555-cells-WHOLE-3x6-Tabbed-Solar-Cells-Full-KIT-/180537141493?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a08da28f5
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> Damn tempting
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> 1kw of solar cells for 300 quid
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> 400
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> If only I had a bit more sun, I might go for that
[12:58] <jshriver> sounds a little expensive
[12:58] <jshriver> but not bad :)
[12:59] <SpeedEvil> 3? years ago you were looking at 2 quid a watt or so
[13:00] <jshriver> There's a couple very large solar cell companies near wher eI live so can get them fairly cheap
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> neat.
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> Where are you?
[13:00] <SpeedEvil> I'm idly wondering about a low-concentrated array
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> A single strip of cells along the top of the east-west roof, with a couple of mirror strips.
[13:01] <juxta_> m1x10, yes, any radio that can tune to the correct band
[13:01] <juxta_> plus a computer
[13:02] <jshriver> Toledo, Ohio
[13:02] <jshriver> er USA :)
[13:03] Action: SpeedEvil wishes nanosolar would do end-user stuf.
[13:03] <SpeedEvil> f
[13:04] <russss> government will pay you but I think you have to get them professionally installed
[13:05] <juxta_> ping Darkside
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> russss: yes.
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> russss: Which basically means it's pointless for small stuff.
[13:06] <russss> 1kW isn't that small as far as solar installations go
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> It is if you're contemplating the cell costs being the major amount.
[13:06] <juxta_> those cells seem quite cheap
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> I have a large stack of old bus-windows that would suit, for example.
[13:07] <juxta_> what do sizeable inverters cost in the UK?
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> It depends.
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> There are grid-tie inverters for of the order of 600-900 pounds.
[13:07] <juxta_> 1kW?
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> And then there are ones for 150-200 pounds, that don't mention any required certification to actually connect them.
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Grid-Tie-Inverter-SOLAR-700Wp-UK-model-SPECIAL-PRICE-/310215369156?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item483a46e1c4
[13:08] <juxta_> hmm
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> I'm pondering either solar, or what would possibly be more sensible - a battery + night-rate.
[13:09] <russss> "To be used in a 'grid tied' arrangement, simply wire to PV panels and plug into you mains"
[13:09] <russss> simple!
[13:09] <juxta_> hehe
[13:09] <russss> ...
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> With all loads during the day run off battery
[13:09] <juxta_> unless you don't use much power that'd be a bit tricky I would have thought
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> My current power usage is around 200W
[13:10] <juxta_> that is quite low :)
[13:10] <SpeedEvil> dropping to perhaps 160 when I get my new freezer.
[13:10] <juxta_> if you get a grid connect system in the UK, do you sell the surplus energy your produce back to the grid?
[13:10] <russss> yes
[13:10] <juxta_> you* produce
[13:10] <fsphil> SpeedEvil, I've got one of those inverters -- not bad, bit noisy when they're running full power
[13:11] <russss> juxta_: apparently the paperwork is a bit of a fiddle though
[13:11] <juxta_> hmm, what's the rate in comparison to what you buy it from the grid at?
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> I have been looking at various solutions.
[13:11] <russss> I'm not sure actually
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> The rate you can get heat for if you use night-rate electricity with a heat pump and store is really very, very good.
[13:11] <SpeedEvil> About a third of that of gas.
[13:12] <juxta_> hmm, we've got night rates here too
[13:12] <juxta_> but they're not all that much cheaper I dont think
[13:12] <SpeedEvil> there is o often a 2 or 3:1 split here
[13:12] <Darkside> juxta_: did you see my idea about the glider?
[13:12] <juxta_> however we have a decent deal at the moment with selling energy back to the grid
[13:12] <russss> juxta_: I think the government will match a certain amount of whatever you get paid to feed-in. There's some massive scheme going on currently.
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> In principle, I am violently opposed to feed-in tarrifs.
[13:13] <juxta_> yup I did Darkside, that's something I really want to see done :)
[13:13] <Darkside> juxta_: totally possible
[13:13] <Darkside> it will just cost money
[13:13] <juxta_> (some US guys did it too a while ago)
[13:13] <Darkside> i wonder what CASA would think of it
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> They end up taking money from the poorest, and giving it to the rich.
[13:13] <russss> juxta_: also they pay you for the renewable energy that you use, even if you don't feed it to the grid
[13:13] <juxta_> hmm
[13:13] <SpeedEvil> Like e-car subsidies.
[13:13] <russss> yeah, these subsidies suck
[13:14] <russss> but if they exist you might as well use them.
[13:14] <SpeedEvil> True.
[13:14] <juxta_> the situation here is that you basically sell the energy back to the grid at roughly 2.5 times what you buy it for, but it's all paid for by the govt - the electricity company pays for perhaps 10% of it
[13:15] <SpeedEvil> Of course - as a government - the situation is a bit complex.
[13:15] <SpeedEvil> If UK PLC can reduce the importation of external fuel, then it is a net win.
[13:15] <russss> I think the renewables obligation system should be a sufficient incentive
[13:15] <russss> and if it isn't, then maybe microgeneration isn't the most efficient solution
[13:15] <m1x10> juxta_ what r u talking about?
[13:16] <SpeedEvil> As it reduces the requirements for industry to work as hard exporting, making the balance of trade less tough to maintain.
[13:16] <SpeedEvil> Microgeneration is typically hideously bad.
[13:16] <juxta_> you don't need anything fancy to decode aprs m1x10, just a radio that you can tune to the right band
[13:16] <SpeedEvil> unless you happen to be in some climates.
[13:16] <juxta_> (and a PC for the decoding)
[13:16] <m1x10> juxta_ I got the radio on 144.8
[13:17] <juxta_> what frequency does your transmitter TX on?
[13:17] <m1x10> im missing a way to demodulate the asfk
[13:17] <m1x10> 144.8 both
[13:18] <m1x10> i used mixW application which decoded my aprs messages. But I needed to plug the cable inside the sound card!
[13:18] <juxta_> yep, that's pretty standard
[13:18] <m1x10> y
[13:19] <juxta_> y?
[13:19] <m1x10> but i dont want such a thing. I need to have control over the program that decodes my messages
[13:19] <m1x10> y=yeah
[13:19] <juxta_> what do you mean by control over it?
[13:20] <m1x10> I mean, mixW is decoding but I need my own app which will parse the messages...make realtime graphs and so on
[13:21] <juxta_> oh right
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[13:22] <juxta_> so you'll need to find an ax.25 decoder that gives you access to the deocded data via a network socket, log file or some other mechanism so that you can interface your apps to it
[13:23] <juxta_> or a TNC, which I guess is what you were building with the arduino shield
[13:24] <m1x10> basically, I need AFSK demodulator+ax25 frame decoder
[13:24] <m1x10> yes its like a TNC
[13:24] <m1x10> but homemade
[13:24] <jonsowman> AFSK demod = KISS mode TNC
[13:24] <jonsowman> why homemade?
[13:25] <m1x10> jonsowman: KISS mode TNC ?
[13:25] <jonsowman> it's a TNC that doesnt to ax.25 decode
[13:25] <jonsowman> so nice and cheap
[13:25] <jonsowman> I've used this one before
[13:25] <jonsowman> http://www.tnc-x.com/
[13:25] <m1x10> doesnt or does?
[13:25] <jonsowman> doesnt
[13:25] <jonsowman> a Terminal-mode TNC will do it, but they're expensive
[13:26] <jonsowman> or at least, more expensive
[13:26] <juxta_> Darkside, writeup is up
[13:26] <m1x10> that radioshield chip does both ax25 and afsk.
[13:27] <m1x10> it works now and prints various aprs messages
[13:27] <m1x10> but it does not work with my station's messages
[13:27] <m1x10> which are decoded from aprs.fi
[13:27] <m1x10> which makes them valid
[13:28] <m1x10> I mean they are valid cause aprs.fi can decode them
[13:28] <m1x10> jonsowman that TNC is huge
[13:28] <m1x10> and does only afsk demodulating?
[13:29] <jonsowman> yes
[13:29] <jonsowman> gives out AX.25 frames over UART
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[13:30] <fsphil> can fldigi demodule afsk?
[13:30] <m1x10> hmm
[13:30] <fsphil> demodulate
[13:31] <jonsowman> not afaik
[13:31] <jonsowman> well no that's a lie
[13:31] <jonsowman> it can
[13:31] <m1x10> jonsowman can u connect to that thing any radio?
[13:31] <jonsowman> if you convince it that it's FSK
[13:31] <fsphil> yea fsk is what I was thinking about
[13:32] <fsphil> I've never used aprs, so no idea about how it's transmitted
[13:32] <jonsowman> m1x10: well yes, you need to feed it audio via a 3.5mm jack
[13:32] <m1x10> ok nrx1 outputs audio
[13:32] <jonsowman> fsphil: APRS is just the string format
[13:32] <jonsowman> AX.25 is the transmission proto
[13:32] <m1x10> yeah
[13:32] <fsphil> ah so it canbe used with any mode?
[13:32] <jonsowman> yep
[13:33] <fsphil> is there a standard mode?
[13:33] <m1x10> ax25 could be said that its the equivalent to ethernet
[13:33] <jonsowman> mostly it's done on 1200baud AFSK
[13:33] <jonsowman> which is required by AX.25
[13:33] <jonsowman> though AX.25 includes other things like bit-stuffing
[13:33] <juxta_> CW APRS, awwyeah
[13:34] <jonsowman> and shoving into (not)-pretty AX.25 frames
[13:34] <jonsowman> listening to FM-txed FSK on SSB is the same as listening to FM-txed AFSK on FM
[13:34] <jonsowman> if that makes sense
[13:35] <jonsowman> ie. you hear mark/space as tones f1/f2, which fldigi can decode
[13:35] <fsphil> (parsing)
[13:35] <fsphil> aah
[13:35] <fsphil> yea that makes sense
[13:36] <fsphil> The whole FM-in-FM gets confusing sometimes
[13:36] <jonsowman> heh you're telling me
[13:36] <jonsowman> :)
[13:42] <Darkside> juxta_: nice
[13:42] <Darkside> just read it
[13:43] <juxta_> i like the pic showing the length of the line
[13:44] <Darkside> hehe
[13:44] <Darkside> joel took that
[13:44] <Darkside> the pictures of the line when its up in the air don't do it justive
[13:44] <Darkside> justice*
[13:44] <Darkside> its really freaking long
[13:45] <Darkside> the HF antenna itself is 21m long
[13:45] <Darkside> (1/4 wave at 7MHz is 10.5m)
[13:45] <juxta_> yeah
[13:45] <juxta_> i think all up 60-70m this time
[13:45] <Darkside> heh
[13:46] <Darkside> also i reckon i can easily miniaturise the HF transmitter
[13:46] <Darkside> like, so you could attach it to your system
[13:46] <juxta_> sweet
[13:46] <Darkside> it would just end up requiring logic level inputs
[13:46] <juxta_> I'm going to work on reducing the repeater down even more
[13:46] <Darkside> so you could easily have it broadcasting the same data on 70cm and HF at the same time
[13:47] <Darkside> you'd just need to program the AD9835 with my arduino pobrary
[13:47] <Darkside> library
[13:47] <Darkside> and i've got a design for a single transistor 40mW amp done up
[13:47] <juxta_> sweet
[13:47] <juxta_> more efficient than the opamp one?
[13:47] <Darkside> probably not lol
[13:47] <Darkside> its class A
[13:47] <Darkside> maybe a bit more efficient
[13:47] <juxta_> haha, oh well
[13:48] <juxta_> it's not the end of the world
[13:48] <Darkside> getting high efficiency at low powers is hard
[13:48] <Darkside> i'm constructing it tomorrow, i'll let you know how it goes
[13:48] <juxta_> sweet :)
[13:48] <juxta_> hey what did your supervisor say?
[13:48] <Darkside> he was tracking it for a few hours :P
[13:48] <Darkside> just wasn't uploading :(
[13:49] <Darkside> also i cleaned all my important components in an ultrasonic cleaner today
[13:49] <juxta_> oh nice
[13:49] <juxta_> how did they come out?
[13:50] <Darkside> should be ok
[13:50] <Darkside> havent tested it
[13:50] <juxta_> i've not yet fully tested mine either
[13:50] <Darkside> i did it in de-ionized water first, then isopropyl alcohol
[13:50] <juxta_> corrosion was quite bad on some bits though
[13:50] <Darkside> i.e. ultrasonic cleaning in both
[13:50] <juxta_> esp where there was power
[13:50] <juxta_> i noticed that your power rails (i think?) on the stripboard suffered most
[13:51] <Darkside> workshop tech reckons because i soldered, then cut the wires, the core of the wires will be eaten away
[13:51] <Darkside> yeah
[13:52] <juxta_> hey do you have a link for that DC PSU you mentioned to me Darkside?
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[13:53] <Darkside> juxta_: hold on
[13:53] <Darkside> http://www.dimensionengineering.com/DE-SW050.htm
[13:53] <Darkside> theres the 5V one
[13:53] <juxta_> nah, not those :P
[13:53] <juxta_> the bench supply
[13:54] <Laurenceb> its a reg in a plastic package
[13:54] <Laurenceb> and extra overpricing
[13:54] <juxta_> yeah, it's a switchmode reg + passives in a package
[13:54] <juxta_> but they're convenient
[13:54] <Darkside> juxta_: what bench supply?
[13:54] <Darkside> ohhhhhhh
[13:55] <juxta_> but I meant the 13.8v bench supply you got
[13:55] <Darkside> uhmm
[13:55] <Darkside> i just ebay'ed it
[13:55] <Darkside> lol
[13:55] <Darkside> Laurenceb: i plan on reverse engineering one of those
[13:56] <Darkside> juxta_: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/12V-10A-Industrial-Switch-mode-Power-Supply-/260670750547?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_PowerAdaptors_SM&hash=item3cb12fff53
[13:56] <Darkside> it was that kind of thing
[13:56] <Darkside> i think mine is 15A
[13:56] <juxta_> righto
[13:56] <juxta_> i thought it might be like that
[13:56] <Darkside> they have a little dial where you can dial up the output voltage
[13:56] <Darkside> mine is set to 13.37V atm
[13:56] <juxta_> hmm, nice
[13:57] <Darkside> drops to about 13v when i draw 6A on transmit
[13:57] <SpeedEvil> Hmm. This is annoying. With the feed-in-tarrif that would be available if I was to qualify it, the panels made from cells above would pay back for me in a year and a half.
[13:58] <SpeedEvil> But as I'd have to buy precertified panels, and actually install them by an accredited installer, more like a decade.
[13:58] <juxta_> yeah, same deal here SpeedEvil
[13:58] <juxta_> it pans out to ~6 years here
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[13:59] <SpeedEvil> juxta_: you're where it's rather sunnier though I suspect
[13:59] <Darkside> juxta_: what approval would you need to get from casa to drop a model glider from a balloon?
[13:59] <juxta_> that's true SpeedEvil
[13:59] <juxta_> Darkside, basically impossible approval, haha
[14:00] <Darkside> juxta_: oh?
[14:00] <Darkside> thats interesting
[14:00] <juxta_> well, im sure you could do it
[14:00] <juxta_> but CASA are horrible when it comes to doing anything nonstandard
[14:00] <Darkside> haha
[14:00] <juxta_> even balloon approval was like asking the world of them
[14:01] <Darkside> just before launch, get someone to jump a fence, run towards it yelling, tie on the glider, then launch the balloon
[14:01] <Darkside> 'there was nothing we could do! he came out of nowhere!'
[14:04] <shenki> juxta_: nice write up
[14:04] <shenki> my photography featured well :D
[14:05] <juxta_> hehe
[14:05] <juxta_> thanks shenki
[14:05] <juxta_> & thanks for your help on the day! :)
[14:05] <shenki> and that dogey J in projecthorus :/
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[14:05] <shenki> juxta_: no worries. it was great fun, i'll be back for more after exams no doubt
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[14:06] <shenki> thanks for haivng me out there
[14:09] <juxta_> fear not, the dodgy J is somewhere in the sea now
[14:15] <juxta_> thanks for snapping that pic of the nodepony Darkside, I'll think of a way to tactfully get it to Simon soon :)
[14:15] <Darkside> :P
[14:16] <Darkside> i should have put the nodepony on top of my HF payload, when i took the shot looking up the line
[14:16] <Darkside> like, had it peering over the side :P
[14:17] <Darkside> ah well, next time
[14:17] <shenki> when's next time?
[14:19] <juxta_> soon
[14:19] <juxta_> will have at least 2 launches in the next month or so
[14:20] <Darkside> cool
[14:23] <juxta_> I want to get the repeater down to say 100g
[14:23] <Darkside> heh
[14:23] <shenki> juxta_: what is it currently?
[14:23] <Darkside> i'll see about making a 40mW HF transmitter board you can use
[14:24] <Darkside> juxta_: how many free IO lines does your atmega have?
[14:24] <juxta_> 200g or so shenki
[14:24] <juxta_> Darkside, heaps
[14:24] <Darkside> ok, it needs 4 for this
[14:24] <Darkside> SDATA, SCLK, FSYNC, and FSEL
[14:24] <Darkside> first three to program the chip, the last will be toggled for mark and space
[14:25] <juxta_> yup, that should be easy done
[14:25] <Darkside> so at the same time as you flip the pins for your NTX2, you do the same for the AD9835
[14:25] <juxta_> awesome
[14:26] <juxta_> so the board will be basically the AD9835 + filter + amp?
[14:26] <Darkside> yep
[14:26] <juxta_> that sounds great - we can fly it in future so that we can have 2 telemetry systems :)
[14:27] <Darkside> i might be able to make a small higher power amp, not sure yet
[14:27] <Darkside> half a watt or so would be nice
[14:27] <Darkside> but it would need more batteries
[14:28] <Darkside> aww littlebird dont sell the ad9835 breakouts
[14:28] <shenki> Darkside: time to make a surface mount pcb
[14:28] <Darkside> shenki: yeah
[14:29] <Darkside> its on my list of things to do..
[14:29] <Darkside> tbh i'd prefer one for the AD9834
[14:29] <Darkside> since it can do some cooler things
[14:31] <Darkside> like give a swquare wave output, which is what you need to drive a class E power amp
[14:32] <m1x10> http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/isslivestream.asx: interview !
[14:34] <Darkside> ok, sleep time for me i think
[14:34] <Darkside> want to do stuff tomorrow
[14:35] <Darkside> nn all
[14:35] <juxta_> sleep here too, night :)
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[15:19] Action: Laurenceb is trying to work out how to remove the 4000hz freuency limit in dl-fldigi
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[15:36] <SpeedEvil> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11511886 :)
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[16:51] <chile> hi
[16:51] <chile> can someone tell me what calculations i need to determine the parachute size?
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[16:53] <fsphil> there's some information on the wiki that might help: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:parachute_sizing_chart
[16:53] <jcoxon> evening
[16:53] <fsphil> hi hi jcoxon
[16:54] <jcoxon> hey fsphil
[16:55] <fsphil> I see the predictions are getting closer to landfall
[16:56] <jcoxon> yeah
[16:56] <jcoxon> was just about to run it again
[16:56] <chile> thanks fsphil
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[17:13] <jcoxon> fsphil, you still around this evening?
[17:26] <fsphil> yep jcoxon, should be no problem
[17:26] <fsphil> showing one of the drivers the launch site, but should be back well before
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[17:53] <jcoxon> fsphil, ooo latest prediction up
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[18:24] <m1x10> I dont believe it
[18:24] <m1x10> I want to cry
[18:25] <m1x10> it was not working because both stations were too close
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:36] <m1x10> 300mW in 1 meter distance
[18:36] <m1x10> with high gain antennas
[18:36] <m1x10> ok
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[18:47] <fsphil> woo, back from the launch site. mist on the ground, very spooky
[18:47] <fsphil> took the ft-790r out, could hear the signal all over the town, and on one particular hill about 5km away
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[18:48] <Hiena> Nice. How much of the output juice?
[18:49] <fsphil> 10mw
[18:49] <Hiena> Over 5km range? Cool. What did you used? Yagi?
[18:50] <fsphil> nah just the little rubber duck that comes with the radio
[18:50] <fsphil> fair enough it was just one particular hill it worked on
[18:50] <fsphil> just must have been a lucky spot
[18:50] <fsphil> the neat thing is the payload is sitting on my desk
[18:52] <Hiena> Well, i use 400Mhz 30mW modules with the short antenna, and i would be damn happy if i could make connections over 300m.
[18:52] <Randomskk> hmm. I want to dissolve a bit of paint on something metal, lack vodka, could scrape it off with my knife but it takes ages and hurts my hands, would gin soften it any? >_>
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: Sometimes oil works well
[18:52] <Hiena> Usually the flghtlog full of holes.
[18:52] <Randomskk> Hiena: it's all about the other end - we get 500km+ out of 10mW 434mhz
[18:52] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: not got any oil either :/
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: cooking oil
[18:53] <Hiena> Randomskk, heatgun.
[18:53] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: catered accommodation
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> how large a bit of paint?
[18:53] <Randomskk> well the thing is covered in paint
[18:53] <Randomskk> but it's tiny
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> what sort of metal
[18:53] <Randomskk> 9mm diameter roughly circular
[18:53] <Hiena> Randomskk, a bullet?
[18:54] <Randomskk> not sure what metal, could be a brass alloy of some kind
[18:54] <fsphil> jcoxon, wow that's brilliant
[18:54] <Randomskk> Hiena: no, clothes poppers
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: sure it's not enamel?
[18:54] <Randomskk> it conducts
[18:54] <Randomskk> oh, the paint?
[18:54] <Randomskk> no
[18:54] <Randomskk> it could be. it's black and scrapes off into little flakes
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> I'd have at it with a small wire brush
[18:55] <Randomskk> if I was at home I'd probably dremel it with a mildly abrasive tool
[18:55] <Randomskk> but none of that handy here
[18:56] <Hiena> How about toothpaste?
[18:56] <Randomskk> I do have toothpaste but I wouldn't have thought it would have much effect
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> As plato once said - What is man without powertools?
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[18:56] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, Mcgyver.
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> The A-team.
[18:57] <Hiena> Nah, they use power tools heavily.
[18:58] <Hiena> Randomskk, any nail polish thinner around there?
[18:58] <Randomskk> someone else could have some I guess, but I don't and no one on my corridor does
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> I'd go with heat first
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> hold it over a lighter
[18:59] <Randomskk> best I have available there is a soldering iron
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> don't go over dull red
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> in a dark room
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> oh - that too
[18:59] <Randomskk> that worth trying?
[18:59] <Hiena> Randomskk, how is some hot bleach or declogger bath?
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> It will certainly remove the paint.
[19:00] <Randomskk> hmm. I'll give the soldering iron a go
[19:00] <Randomskk> Hiena: cleaned, catered accommodation :(
[19:00] <Hiena> Salt water and 9V cell?
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> salt water and brass and 9V will leach out the zinc
[19:02] <Hiena> Hmm, any ketchup and salt there? I used it as oxide remover.
[19:02] <Hiena> Also the vinegar and salt mix works.
[19:03] <Hiena> If there some oxide under the paint it would crack it up.
[19:03] <Randomskk> soldering iron doesn't appear to have had much of an effect
[19:04] <jonsowman> you trying to get the black paint off those poppers?
[19:04] <Randomskk> yea
[19:04] <jonsowman> hmm
[19:04] <Randomskk> scratching them off with a knife is really slow and gives my hand cramps from holding them tightly
[19:04] <Randomskk> but we seriously lack chemicals around here
[19:04] <jonsowman> I can imagine
[19:04] <jonsowman> yeah
[19:10] <Hiena> How hard is that paint?
[19:11] <Randomskk> fairly tough.
[19:11] <Hiena> I would try fix up some abrasive from sand and toothpaste.
[19:12] <Randomskk> how'd that work?
[19:13] <Hiena> Like some semi-liquid sandpaper
[19:13] <Randomskk> they are really tiny, it's hard to rub anything on them with any force
[19:13] <SpeedEvil> Do you have any hotmelt glue?
[19:13] <SpeedEvil> And a rotating thing - even a fan will work
[19:13] <Randomskk> hmm. not with me
[19:13] <Randomskk> ugh, the amount of stuff I have at home
[19:13] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:13] <Hiena> Apply to a piece of cloth and rub the poppers on it.
[19:14] <Randomskk> we don't think the gin is likely to work then? >_>
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> Take the gin, and use it to gulp down the poppers.
[19:14] <Randomskk> haha
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> Maybe digestive acid will work.
[19:14] <Randomskk> well, if nothing else works...
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> Also - enay can be remarkably useful.
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> ebay
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> I've recently purchased more stuff frrom there - though less pointless than usual.
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> Frying pan.
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> It's at least gonna get more use than most ebay purchases.
[19:16] <Randomskk> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50x-Snap-fastener-press-studs-popper-8mm-nickel-silver-/260670199580
[19:16] <Randomskk> hmmm
[19:16] <Randomskk> £1 plus 69 pence delivery for 50 nickel silver poppers
[19:16] <Randomskk> reckon they'd conduct?
[19:16] <Randomskk> nickel plated, it says
[19:16] <SpeedEvil> Well - nickel and silver are both conductive.
[19:16] <Randomskk> apparently it is silver in appearance, nickel plated and made of spring steel
[19:16] <SpeedEvil> They will conduct - how much current is an interesting question
[19:17] <Randomskk> well
[19:17] <Randomskk> yes, I suppose so
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> I would say 100mA will prob ably be reliable
[19:17] <Randomskk> this whole wearable electronics/conductive thread business is a bit dodgy when it comes to higher currents
[19:17] <Randomskk> I need about half an amp max
[19:17] <Randomskk> and it's going through conductive thread
[19:17] <Randomskk> which is 16 ohms per foot
[19:17] <Randomskk> though I'm using wire for the long run
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> ah
[19:17] <Randomskk> runs*
[19:17] <Randomskk> however, four of five poppers
[19:17] <Randomskk> or*
[19:18] <Randomskk> screw stripping this shit then, ordering those from ebay
[19:19] <Randomskk> for a grand total of £1.69, my time is worth more than that
[19:19] <Randomskk> good call on ebay
[19:28] <SpeedEvil> What are you making inthe way of wearable clothes?
[19:28] <SpeedEvil> err
[19:28] <SpeedEvil> electronics
[19:31] <Randomskk> putting about 30 bright white LEDs into the rim of my long coat
[19:31] <Randomskk> ...to start with
[19:31] <Randomskk> seemed like an easy enough project to get playing with while still being a bit interesting
[19:32] <Randomskk> check out http://vimeo.com/14205709 though, I really like what they've done with an rfid antenna that makes your underwear vibrate when rfid readers are near
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[19:39] <Laurenceb> hi
[19:39] <Laurenceb> anyone here know how to join two arrays in numpy?
[19:39] <Randomskk> you can concat them
[19:39] <Randomskk> ndarray concatenate(a1, a2)
[19:39] <Laurenceb> aha
[19:40] <Randomskk> or you can stack, hstack() vstack() and dstack()
[19:40] <Laurenceb> i was trying joined=array([array1,array2])
[19:40] <Laurenceb> doh
[19:40] <Randomskk> that counts as a separate thing - a list of arrays
[19:40] <Randomskk> which is also sometimes useful
[19:40] <Laurenceb> trying to hack up a interface between the cc1020 and dl-fldigi
[19:40] <Laurenceb> yeah
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: :)
[19:41] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: you mean the bottom of the coat?
[19:41] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: around the edge?
[19:41] Action: Laurenceb likes the atmega128 RF board on sparkfun
[19:41] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: yea
[19:41] <Randomskk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/5045136461/
[19:42] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: which?
[19:42] <Randomskk> ah
[19:42] Action: SpeedEvil plays the Knight Rider theme.
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: Coat of many colors! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PKG5000-3mm-Colorful-Slow-Flashing-Flash-RGB-LED-SCF3-/390112253854?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5ad480979e
[19:43] <Randomskk> only £240 for 5000 of them :D
[19:44] <Randomskk> very tempted by actual RGB LEDs so I could light up any colour I want
[19:44] <Randomskk> tempted to do an undershirt like that if this works, hook it to a mems microphone, heatbeat monitor, etc
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> It would be awesome if you could get - cheaply - LEDs that were addressible on a bus.
[19:44] <Laurenceb> TypeError: only length-1 arrays can be converted to Python scalars
[19:44] <Laurenceb> ^huh
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> For example - 3 wires - V+, gnd, one-wire connction
[19:45] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: make sure you are using numpy's concat, e.g. numpy.concatenate or such
[19:45] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: that'd be really neat.
[19:45] <jcoxon> blinky?
[19:45] <Randomskk> tiny microcontroller die
[19:45] <Randomskk> BlinkM and ShiftBrite exist
[19:45] <Laurenceb> same error
[19:45] <jcoxon> oh thats it
[19:45] <Laurenceb> with numpy.concatenate
[19:46] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: :/ maybe stack would work better?
[19:46] <Randomskk> hstack or vstack that is
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sil-Lux-Niagara-suspension-ceiling-lamp-LED-RGB-/190385064771?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c53d58b43
[19:47] <Randomskk> pretty
[19:47] <Randomskk> http://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy/reference/generated/numpy.concatenate.html
[19:50] <Laurenceb> woh its numpy.concatenate((a,b))
[19:50] <Laurenceb> stupid python
[19:50] <Randomskk> oh, right
[19:51] <Randomskk> forgot about that. all the numpy functions require a single parameter for the array inputs because they are weird
[19:51] <Randomskk> well, I think it's due to being able to accept an arbitrary number of inputs
[19:52] <Laurenceb> i was looking at extending the bandwidth of the fldigi waterfall
[19:52] <Laurenceb> hunted around in the source to find the 4000hz limit... not 100% sure i worked it all out
[19:53] <Laurenceb> will have a go at recompiling at some point
[19:53] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, welcome to the fun of hacking fldigi
[19:53] <Laurenceb> ideally i want a 50khz waterfall
[19:53] <jcoxon> :-p
[19:53] <Laurenceb> is soo overcomplex
[19:53] <jcoxon> hehe
[19:53] <jcoxon> its a big program
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[20:02] <jcoxon> ping fsphil
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[20:48] <m1x10> gnite all
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[00:00] --- Tue Oct 12 2010