highaltitude.log.20100927

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[01:12] <W0OTM> howdy
[01:14] <natrium42> hi W0OTM
[01:14] <W0OTM> whats new?
[01:15] <natrium42> not much, you?
[01:15] <W0OTM> updateing website
[01:15] <W0OTM> im not laking the flight path of my new launch
[01:15] <W0OTM> :(
[01:16] <natrium42> laking?
[01:16] <W0OTM> liking
[01:16] <W0OTM> sorry
[01:16] <W0OTM> lol
[01:17] <natrium42> ah, it's so hard to be patient, eh? :)
[01:17] <W0OTM> what do you mean?
[01:17] <W0OTM> grr, I can't type
[01:17] <natrium42> do you mean predicted path?
[01:17] <W0OTM> im not liking the flight path of my next launch
[01:17] <W0OTM> yeah
[01:18] Action: natrium42 hates waiting for better winds
[01:18] <W0OTM> LOL
[01:18] <W0OTM> too much publicity has gone out about the launch
[01:18] <DagoRed> W0OTM: We've been waiting for nearly 2 months to do our high altitude record flight.
[01:19] <W0OTM> DagoRed: whats keeping you?
[01:19] <Darkside> whats the record atm?
[01:19] <DagoRed> Winds, schedules.
[01:19] <DagoRed> Darkside: For Ameteur radio the record is like 128k.
[01:19] <Darkside> heh ok
[01:19] <DagoRed> Our lab record is 121k.
[01:19] <DagoRed> *121k ft
[01:25] <W0OTM> DagoRed: new prediction http://www.w0otm.com/iHAB/iHAB-2/
[01:27] <Randomskk> I wonder how hard it would be to have the predictor output an image file with your prediction in it.
[01:27] <Randomskk> I don't think it'd be that hard
[01:27] <Randomskk> haha so I'll just open an issue on it for jonsowman
[01:27] <natrium42> lol
[01:27] <SpeedEvil> georectification is an annoying issue if you want to do that
[01:28] <Randomskk> hm?
[01:28] <W0OTM> is http://spacenear.us/tracker/ just for WB8ELK?
[01:28] <natrium42> nope, anybody can use it
[01:29] <W0OTM> how?
[01:29] <natrium42> are you using the distributed listening system?
[01:29] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: Generating a simple 1 pixel/.01 degree or whatever image is easy.
[01:29] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: oh, but we don't solve that issue
[01:29] <W0OTM> distributed listening system???
[01:29] <Randomskk> just use google's static maps API
[01:29] <Randomskk> you can encode a polyline and markers in the URL
[01:29] <Randomskk> and it outputs a static image
[01:30] <natrium42> W0OTM, http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[01:30] <DagoRed> W0OTM: Our last prediction had us going to Kansas.... from Ames.
[01:30] <natrium42> you don't really need it as you are using APRS
[01:30] <SpeedEvil> yeah - handing it off makes it simple
[01:30] <natrium42> however, you can repost your positions to the tracker directly, if you want
[01:30] <natrium42> the api is very simple --> http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:tracker
[01:31] Action: DagoRed hopes to have an IRC bot for reporting APRS on the next flight.
[01:33] <natrium42> DagoRed, would be could if you could repost the positions to spacenear.us tracker as it adds predictions etc
[01:33] <DagoRed> natrium42: I should see if we can add that to our falcon software.
[01:33] <DagoRed> nv1k would be our expert for that.
[01:43] <W0OTM> natrium42: ok, so I got it installed
[01:43] <W0OTM> http://www.w0otm.com/iHAB/tracker/
[01:43] <W0OTM> how do I feed APRS live into the tracker?
[01:44] <natrium42> oh, that's the older version, i can give you the new one
[01:44] <natrium42> there is no aprs thingy for it yet
[01:44] <W0OTM> ok
[01:44] <natrium42> need to make it ...
[01:44] <W0OTM> there is a newer one?
[01:44] <W0OTM> LOL
[01:44] <natrium42> should be quite straight forward
[01:44] <natrium42> the one on spacenear.us/tracker
[01:44] <W0OTM> oh good
[01:45] <W0OTM> where is it?
[01:45] <natrium42> i'd have to zip up the files from the server
[01:45] <W0OTM> pls :)
[01:45] <natrium42> hmm, could you see if you can get the aprs data into it first?
[01:45] <natrium42> all you need is to POST or GET it to the server as described in the wiki
[01:46] <DagoRed> W0OTM: We have something that plugs directly into google maps for our falcon stuff. However.... I don't think we do anything right now that posts on the web.
[01:47] <W0OTM> natrium42: are you thinking like having a php script that would take a csv file from aprs.fi and importing into the tracker?
[01:47] <natrium42> yes, or if you can plug into the aprs system directly
[01:47] <W0OTM> natrium42: or are you thinking of a cron script
[01:47] <W0OTM> natrium42: ah ok
[01:48] <W0OTM> natrium42: Ill work on that
[01:48] <natrium42> cool, i think quite a few people are interested
[01:48] <W0OTM> natrium42: u a php coder?
[01:48] <natrium42> aprs.fi is nice, but limited for balloon apps
[01:48] <natrium42> i know some php, yes
[01:48] Action: natrium42 is a computer science grad
[01:49] <W0OTM> natrium42: ok, ill have a look at it. it may not be this week, as I am gfetting ready for a launch next weekend
[01:49] <natrium42> :)
[01:49] <W0OTM> natrium42: but after that, ill have a go at doing both. (import and live feed from aprs.fi)
[01:50] <natrium42> coolz, would be awesome to have that
[01:50] <W0OTM> drop me an email so I can contact you outside of here
[01:50] <W0OTM> w0otm@w0otm.com
[01:51] <natrium42> k, will do
[01:51] <W0OTM> thx
[01:51] <W0OTM> I just completed a redesign of the AllStarLink Portal
[01:51] <W0OTM> where u at geographically?
[01:53] <natrium42> 100 km from toronto
[01:53] <W0OTM> kk, very good
[01:54] <natrium42> not too far from iowa :)
[01:54] <W0OTM> lol
[01:56] <natrium42> sent
[01:59] <W0OTM> thx
[02:01] <DagoRed> W0OTM: http://www.arhab.org/records/records/haltitude.html
[02:02] <DagoRed> Crap, we're currently #12
[03:23] <sYx66> natrium42 are we launching locally?
[03:37] <Darkside> w00t
[03:37] <Darkside> http://robertharrison.org/listen/view.php?reg=/DARKSIDE/
[03:38] <Darkside> :P
[03:48] <DagoRed> nice
[03:49] <Darkside> and the buzzing from last night was just my radio at home
[03:49] <Darkside> which means i'm going to need to drag out tmy other, more reliable HF radio
[04:06] <natrium42> sYx66, yes, we should
[04:06] <natrium42> got balloon and helium
[04:06] <natrium42> and NTX2 transmitter
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[04:47] <Darkside> hmm
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[07:23] <Upu> morning all
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[07:47] <m1x10> morning :p
[07:51] <madEngineer> morning
[08:05] <m1x10> madEngineer new here?
[08:08] Nick change: madEngineer -> nv1k
[08:08] <nv1k> nope, sorry, wrong nick lol
[08:09] <nv1k> been here a few times :)
[08:12] <m1x10> :p
[08:12] <nv1k> can't sleep, again
[08:12] <nv1k> so ragchewing on 80m and IRC
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[08:21] <m1x10> :p
[08:23] <m1x10> from?
[08:24] <nv1k> as in location?
[08:24] <nv1k> Iowa
[08:25] <m1x10> have you managed to flight anything yet?
[08:25] <m1x10> fly*
[08:27] <DagoRed> We have, www.sscl.iastate.edu . Look at HABET. We've done over 120 flights.
[08:27] <m1x10> 120? wtf? :p
[08:28] <nv1k> its actually more like 140 DagoRed
[08:28] <DagoRed> Mission #123 is the one we've been trying to launch. I don't want to confuse anyone.
[08:30] <nv1k> 123 mission
[08:30] <nv1k> quite a few missions have more than one flight
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[08:32] <m1x10> whats those cams at LX-109-C ?
[08:32] <nv1k> what about them?
[08:33] <m1x10> models
[08:33] <m1x10> :p
[08:33] <DagoRed> m1x10: What ever we can find.
[08:33] <nv1k> umm
[08:33] <nv1k> let me look it up quick
[08:37] <nv1k> can't seem to find it
[08:37] <m1x10> np
[08:37] <nv1k> canon something because we ran CHDK on it
[08:38] <m1x10> ah ok
[08:38] <m1x10> the usual :)
[08:38] <nv1k> yeah
[08:38] <m1x10> i see some aprs stuff
[08:38] <nv1k> canon s400 something sounds familiar for some reason
[08:38] <m1x10> what is your aprs system consists of?
[08:39] <nv1k> the old system was garmin gps > opentracker > midland radio
[08:40] <nv1k> new system we are moving to is gps to our own electronics package to a radio
[08:40] <nv1k> and hopefully by the end of the year the radio is integrated with our electronics as well
[08:42] <m1x10> nice, so you first used a ready tracker
[08:42] <m1x10> im building my own at 144.8
[08:43] <nv1k> all it really does is do the modulation
[08:43] <m1x10> its finished on breadboards and now im completing the pcb.
[08:43] <nv1k> our next prototype uses our microcontroller to do the modulation
[08:43] <nv1k> and the next one after that will have an integrated radio
[08:44] <nv1k> nice
[08:44] <m1x10> yeah im like that right now
[08:44] <m1x10> but i cant find any demodulation code on the net
[08:45] <nv1k> yeah demod is a little bit more complicated
[08:45] <nv1k> what microcontroller are you using?
[08:45] <m1x10> atmega328
[08:46] <m1x10> I found the radioshield on argentdata.com
[08:46] <m1x10> which does the demodulation
[08:46] <nv1k> yeah
[08:46] <m1x10> i ordered it but still waiting....
[08:46] <nv1k> i looked at that but didn't look too closely
[08:46] <nv1k> does it just output audio?
[08:46] <nv1k> that you have to process on the atmega?
[08:46] <m1x10> you got to put the radio receiver
[08:47] <DagoRed> For APRS, yes it's an audio signal.
[08:47] <m1x10> and it will output just ax25 packekts
[08:47] <DagoRed> Do you have the APRS compression as well, also are using the specified CRC?
[08:47] <nv1k> ahh, so you don't even need to do demod
[08:47] <m1x10> its takes the rf from radio does its magic and outputs ax25
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[08:48] <DagoRed> ahh
[08:48] <nv1k> if it is outputting ax.25 then i'm assuming it is serial into your atmega
[08:48] <nv1k> that should make it pretty easy
[08:48] <m1x10> yeah
[08:48] <DagoRed> The easy way.
[08:48] <m1x10> i havent seen it yet, im waiting to get it.
[08:48] <m1x10> then examine it
[08:49] <m1x10> i foudn that u used Kodak ZX1 Pocket Video Camera
[08:49] <nv1k> we have been pretty happy whenever we have bought from argent
[08:49] <nv1k> ugh, that kodak sucked
[08:49] <DagoRed> Yeah but we need to do something custom for cysat.
[08:49] <m1x10> nv1k: sucked?
[08:50] <nv1k> it hasn't worked well at all for a flight yet
[08:50] <m1x10> whats the problem?
[08:51] <nv1k> doesn't like to stay filiming for any significan't amount of time
[08:52] <nv1k> doesn't like the temperature change either
[08:52] <m1x10> what batteries do u use?
[08:53] <nv1k> lithium
[08:53] <nv1k> lithium primary cells that are good to -50C
[08:53] <m1x10> hmm
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[08:53] <m1x10> does this camera officially accepts lithium?
[08:55] <nv1k> i would assume its stock batteries are lithium
[08:56] <m1x10> hmmm
[08:56] <DagoRed> I'm sure all camera's accept lithiums given that those are the batteries best suited for high drain devices.
[08:57] <m1x10> true
[08:57] <nv1k> cameras aren't particularily high drain
[08:57] <DagoRed> Tell that to the battery manufacturers advertising otherwise.
[09:01] <m1x10> Near Infrared Photography
[09:01] <m1x10> cool
[09:01] <m1x10> did u do that?
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[09:02] <DagoRed> The near infrared stuff was on a teathered mission.
[09:03] <DagoRed> Funny story, some place there was a high altitude balloon with a 2x4 attached to it.
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[09:04] <nv1k> back
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[09:09] <m1x10> teathered ?
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[09:10] <nv1k> the balloon was tethered to the ground
[09:10] <nv1k> about 500ft up
[09:10] <nv1k> for high resolution imaging
[09:10] <nv1k> required a fairly static platform
[09:10] <m1x10> ah
[09:10] <m1x10> http://www.flickr.com/photos/cwilliamson/53668834/
[09:10] <m1x10> thats a IR photo from plane
[09:10] <DagoRed> Cool.
[09:10] Action: DagoRed hates wogahta right now.
[09:11] <m1x10> haha
[09:11] <m1x10> its pretty cool to make IR cams on habs. they could produce great pics.
[09:12] <nv1k> NIR is cool
[09:12] <m1x10> beings watching at NIR are cool. I want NIR eyes :p
[09:14] <DagoRed> Little creepy.
[09:14] <m1x10> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/01/11/40-incredible-near-infrared-photos/
[09:16] <DagoRed> Wow.
[09:16] <m1x10> :p
[09:19] <DagoRed> http://nursemyra.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/bacon-coffe-cup.jpg
[09:20] <m1x10> lo
[09:20] <m1x10> l
[09:21] <m1x10> eat that :)
[09:22] <DagoRed> I would.
[09:28] <m1x10> :p
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[09:33] <m1x10> most of your tracking systems look ready products
[09:34] <nv1k> our old tracking system yes
[09:34] <nv1k> other than our custom software
[09:35] <nv1k> for prediction/tracking
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[14:54] <Laurenceb> http://www.qfpost.com/download.do?get=4c6118fdabc1eac3745a4afcc423a9c5
[14:54] <Laurenceb> ^ bom for autopilot board
[14:55] <Laurenceb> can probably be reduced in cost by a few pounds but all the major stuff has been cross referenced
[14:55] <SpeedEvil> corrupt
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> 5k file
[15:00] <Laurenceb> grr
[15:01] <Laurenceb> http://www.filedump.net/dumped/bom1285599710.pdf
[15:03] <Laurenceb> lesson of the day: never use excel for _anything_
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> :) I don't see any fundamental errors on a quick glance. Looks good.
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[15:13] <Laurenceb> last column is supposed to show the best supplier
[15:13] <Laurenceb> <- hates excel
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> I hate this sort of thing - it's so damn annoying.
[15:14] <Laurenceb> ideally itd chuck out an order list for each supplier
[15:14] <Laurenceb> would probably be way easier with just a script
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> It also doesn't really work sensibly for 1.
[15:14] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> If you're ordering 1, then minimums generally kill you anyway.
[15:14] <Laurenceb> need a number of boards entry
[15:15] <Laurenceb> also probability of customs intercept etc etc :P
[15:15] <Laurenceb> could chuck out a cost probability density versus number of boards plot :P
[15:16] <Laurenceb> if you were doing thousands of say motherboards itd make all the difference to do stuff like that
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[15:34] <Laurenceb> http://www.filedump.net/dumped/bom1285601624.pdf
[15:34] <Laurenceb> a bit better
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[15:38] <Laurenceb> ideally the parts would be arranged into different eareas like RF etc
[15:39] <SpeedEvil> FSA03 is hte GPS?
[15:45] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:48] <Laurenceb> thinking of ublox6 with the v2 board, but its crazy expensive getting samples from ublox
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[17:04] <W0OTM> howdy
[17:05] <W0OTM> DagoRed: howdy
[17:06] <W0OTM> DagoRed: Im not interested in achieving the highest altitude
[17:07] <W0OTM> DagoRed: Our ultimate goal is to use unmanned UAV w/ autopilot to track back to launchsite
[17:07] <DagoRed> I figured, but we are for an up coming flight.
[17:08] <DagoRed> Oh... that's what RGS is supposed to do for us.
[17:08] <DagoRed> Here is some of our UAV work http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzVnVLEw2qc&feature=related
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> DagoRed: a tethered balloon may be interesting.
[17:08] <SpeedEvil> DagoRed: Reel it out to 2km or so, then pull it back in.
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> after dropping off the UAV
[17:09] <SpeedEvil> repeat
[17:09] <DagoRed> SpeedEvil: It was used for looking at corn fields to see the spread of diseases in various conditions (one being right after a storm). Our solution was cheaper and more effective than satalite photos.
[17:09] <DagoRed> Our last tethered mission that is.
[17:10] <DagoRed> We have done that in the past with RGS testing.
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> Much as my UAV was planned to do - though that was powered.
[17:10] <DagoRed> NV1K has a simple solution for our automated landing using a parafoil and some servos.
[17:10] <SpeedEvil> Well - in principle powered - I haven't actually opened the box to the battery and soldered it onto the board - so ...
[17:11] <DagoRed> A guy in our lab did a Ph. D thesis on it and is now working at boeing. We're just... doing it better without the extra stuff needed for a Ph. D thesis.
[17:11] <DagoRed> It's cool.
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> I was also considering another rather simpler option.
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> A Beeeg catapult, with a relatively lightweight but dense payload.
[17:14] <SpeedEvil> That popped a teeny chute at apogee.
[17:15] <DagoRed> We have helium we need to get rid of, so why not?
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
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[17:15] <DagoRed> Plus we're not to far from a national gaurd base that can drop them off helicopters or launch them out of artillery if we do things right.
[17:15] <SpeedEvil> I was more looking at solutions that would have a turnaround of a few mins.
[17:16] <DagoRed> Oh, for that we can just throw it off the roof.
[17:16] <DagoRed> Plus we have some engines that can power our payload for testing.
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[17:19] <SpeedEvil> I was interested for openstreetmap.
[17:19] <SpeedEvil> Primarily.
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[17:20] <DagoRed> We use google earth.
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> Google earth has legal problems in deriving data from it in some places.
[17:21] <jerry507_mac> What do you mean
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> You canno derive data from satellite photos and use it in a map.
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> Without permission. At lreast not in the UK.
[17:24] <DagoRed> What if you go through the proper process for making an with googles app engine?
[17:24] <DagoRed> I mean a plugin.
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> you can't.
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> It's not a problem with google earth or the tile access.
[17:25] <SpeedEvil> It's a problem with the usage policy of the data.
[17:25] <DagoRed> I guess we never looked into that.
[17:26] <jerry507_mac> Google Maps is inherently used as a map all over
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> I am unsure if this is a problem in the US - copyright doctrine differes significantly there.
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> jerry507_mac: That does not mean that all the uses made f it are in fact permitted.
[17:26] <DagoRed> SpeedEvil: Do you have the ame issue with mapquest?
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> jerry507_mac: For example, it's forbidden in most all circumstances to ever cache tiles from it.
[17:26] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[17:27] <DagoRed> Well... that is different.
[17:27] <DagoRed> Clearly you need to have a server hosted in the US and your problems are solved.
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> Nearly all satellite or ariel photography services other than nationally sponsored ones have terms and conditions that preclude tracing.
[17:27] <jerry507_mac> I don't see anything in the terms
[17:27] <russss> AIUI it's the same problem in the US
[17:27] <SpeedEvil> Doesn't work so well for a UK based project.
[17:28] <jerry507_mac> http://maps.google.com/help/terms_maps.html
[17:29] <russss> jerry507_mac: the question is of copyright law, and whether a traced map is considered a derivative work
[17:29] <jerry507_mac> Maybe those are different for the UK
[17:29] <SpeedEvil> you must not:...(b) copy, translate, modify, or make derivative works of the Content or any part thereof;
[17:29] <russss> and it's implicit, regardless of terms and conditions
[17:29] <jerry507_mac> Yea, you can't copy their data but why would you want to?
[17:30] <jerry507_mac> If you're using their application, you're not going to be copying their source data
[17:30] <jerry507_mac> And it's actually in their terms to not allow access to the bulk data
[17:31] <jerry507_mac> But it's not illegal to take screen shots of their application, for instance
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> yes, it is.
[17:32] <russss> a screenshot is a derivative work
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> Apart from private use.
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> perhaps.
[17:32] <jerry507_mac> You can hit print in their app
[17:33] <russss> sure, they accept that you can do it for personal use (although it's notably not mentioned in their license)
[17:33] <jerry507_mac> Plus they have the API
[17:33] <russss> but if you try and do anything commercial with that data they'll sue you
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> Hitting print in the app does not give you any rights that are not in the licence.
[17:33] <jerry507_mac> Haven't you seen the multitude of services that use the maps API?
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[17:33] <SpeedEvil> And it is limited for some uses in what you can do with it.
[17:33] <russss> the maps API has a separate license
[17:33] <russss> which gives you some more rightsd
[17:34] <SpeedEvil> See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ#Why_don.27t_you_just_use_Google_Maps.2Fwhoever_for_your_data.3F
[17:34] <russss> but it's still google's data
[17:35] <jerry507_mac> See, your confusion is that you are trying to use their data, and not their application
[17:35] <jerry507_mac> You're trying to download images and use them elsewhere
[17:35] <jerry507_mac> We are using Google Earth, the application
[17:35] <SpeedEvil> Using the application is impractical in some circumstances.
[17:36] <SpeedEvil> And just as you're using the application does not make things legal.
[17:36] <jerry507_mac> No, the fact we're not using it illegally makes it legal :)
[17:36] <SpeedEvil> For example - go and mark up all the trees you see in an image. Send that to someone as a kml of 'trees'.
[17:37] <SpeedEvil> You have now created a derived dataset.
[17:37] <SpeedEvil> Which is explicitly forbidden.
[17:37] <jerry507_mac> No
[17:37] <jerry507_mac> Simply, no
[17:38] <jerry507_mac> You have a skewed concept of what derived data is
[17:38] <SpeedEvil> That's the legal opinion the openstreetmap projectr has gotten from actrual lawyers in the field.
[17:39] <jerry507_mac> A set of street directions produced using Google maps would also be a derived data set then
[17:39] Action: DagoRed can see the ice weesel argument comming.
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> yes, it is.
[17:39] <jerry507_mac> Looking at the data and thinking about it would be derived data
[17:39] <jerry507_mac> USING the data would be derived work
[17:39] <jerry507_mac> You're telling me every possible usage of the data is illegal
[17:40] <jerry507_mac> Doesn't that signal in your head your thinking is skewed?
[17:40] <SpeedEvil> Looking at the data is not a problem.
[17:40] <jerry507_mac> Thinking about it in any way is
[17:40] <jerry507_mac> Making any action based on it
[17:40] <SpeedEvil> For some wierrd reason, trhe courtrs generally hold that there is a difference betrween information stored in your head is different from that on paper or computer.
[17:41] <SpeedEvil> Anyway - the above is the opinion of actual copyright lawyers working in the field.
[17:42] <jerry507_mac> Fantastic
[17:42] <jerry507_mac> My opinion is based on the widespread usage of Google Maps, Google Earth and the Google Maps API
[17:42] <DagoRed> Lawyers.... they don't understand computers yet so how can they know the laws for them?
[17:42] <jerry507_mac> By hundreds if not thousands of businesses across 50 states and however many countries
[17:42] <SpeedEvil> Simply because people are not complying with the license conditions does not give you a license.
[17:43] <jerry507_mac> And that google hasn't sued any of them, and continues to expand the availability of their content and services
[17:43] <jerry507_mac> And this is America
[17:43] <jerry507_mac> We invented suing people
[17:43] <jerry507_mac> We sued you guys for the rights to say we invented it, and won
[17:43] <russss> so
[17:44] <russss> talk to a lawyer
[17:44] <jerry507_mac> I don't need to?
[17:44] <russss> if you're following google's terms and conditions, probably not
[17:44] <jerry507_mac> You're more than free to use your Open Street Maps
[17:44] <jerry507_mac> We're more than free to use the products and services Google offers us, and will happily continue to do so
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> According to the AUP of google.
[17:47] <jerry507_mac> use the Service or Content with any products, systems, or applications for or in connection with (i) real time navigation or route guidance, including but not limited to turn-by-turn route guidance that is synchronized to the position of a user's sensor-enabled device; or (ii) any systems or functions for automatic or autonomous control of vehicle behavior.
[17:47] <jerry507_mac> Not doing that
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> You cannot use them legally in ways that breach these terms, or you tisk legal action. For some this may not be an issue.
[17:47] <jerry507_mac> Map data, traffic, directions, and related Content are provided for planning purposes only. You may find that weather conditions, construction projects, closures, or other events may cause road conditions or directions to differ from the map results. You should exercise judgment in your use of this Content.
[17:47] <jerry507_mac> Doing that, in fact
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> You are permitted to use the directions they providce. You cannot derive your own information from that dataset.
[17:49] <jerry507_mac> So what you're telling me is that I couldn't look at the map and make my own directions?
[17:49] <DagoRed> " You should exercise judgment in your use of this Content." They are just saying they are not liable for incorrect information.
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[17:50] <Laurenceb> hi
[17:51] <DagoRed> I'm impressed, in general to avoid using google is a challenge. But I'm not seeing the neccessity.
[17:52] <jerry507_mac> Nope
[17:52] <jerry507_mac> Not unless you want to directly use their images
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[17:54] <jerry507_mac> Even OpenStreetMaps says that directly in their little sales pitch
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[17:55] <DagoRed> jerry507_mac: It's cool as long as you still use google maps API directly or google earth, as long as those pieces of software are doing the displaying correct?
[17:56] <jerry507_mac> It's cool as long as you're not copying their data
[17:56] <DagoRed> Ok.
[17:57] <jerry507_mac> OpenStreetMaps exists because people want to copy the data sets from services like Google and their suppliers, which is obviously illegal
[17:58] <DagoRed> I know nv1k was looking at a tile server so we could have a map without an internet connection for recovery.
[17:58] <jerry507_mac> The differentiation is that if you make a KML file with all the trees labeled and then proceed to load it up in every copy of Google Earth known to man is that... you're still using Googles stuff
[17:58] <jerry507_mac> You're not copying the tile data out and loading it up in your own program
[17:59] <jerry507_mac> Yea, that's probably pretty illegal
[18:02] <jerry507_mac> It'd be easier for us to get a data modem and use that
[18:04] <jerry507_mac> I did notice this though:
[18:04] <jerry507_mac> http://code.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/mapsdata/
[18:05] <DagoRed> I'm off to class
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[18:23] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_catalyzed_nuclear_pulse_propulsion
[18:23] <Laurenceb> makes me think nuclear hand grenades
[18:26] <Laurenceb> guess it depends on how many antiprotons... seems slightly worrying
[18:28] <m1x10> hey there
[18:28] <m1x10> antiprotons..nuclear propulsion...did i joined a physics channel ? :p
[18:28] <m1x10> i got a question
[18:29] <m1x10> gyroscope=counts how many degrees i turn on an axis per second. Correct?
[18:30] <m1x10> Why would I need such a thing on the payload?
[18:30] <m1x10> What is the value of having such an information?
[18:30] <m1x10> or is it just for our fun?
[18:32] <Laurenceb> there isnt a great deal of value
[18:32] <Laurenceb> if its a UAV however...
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[18:36] <m1x10> I think we are not have anything to do with UAVs here
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[19:34] Nick change: SpikeUK_ -> SpikeUK
[19:40] <jcoxon> evening
[19:40] <DanielRichman> hi
[19:41] <jcoxon> hey DanielRichman
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[19:58] <W0OTM> howdy
[19:58] <jcoxon> hey W0OTM
[19:58] <W0OTM> jcoxon: howdy
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[20:01] <W0OTM> when using the aprs.fi API, what is considered "excessive" use?
[20:01] <jcoxon> i'm not actually sure
[20:01] <jcoxon> never really used it
[20:01] <W0OTM> k
[20:02] <jcoxon> how about once a minute
[20:02] <jcoxon> thats not too bad
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[20:03] <jcoxon> bbiab
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[20:05] <LazyLeopard> Guess it'll depend a bit where along the data path the "excessive" label cuts in. I wonder whether one likely bottleneck isn't the radio-to-network gateway.
[20:09] <m1x10> bye all
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[20:10] <fsphil> woo, my amiga lives! now to get dl-fldigi working on it ... *g*
[20:29] <Upu> Evening all
[20:30] <SpeedEvil> Evening.
[20:30] <Upu> dunno if anyone would mind having a quick look at this and tell me if I've made any school boy errors on it :
[20:30] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/avafcv1/avafc1.png
[20:30] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/avafcv1/atmega3.bmp
[20:30] <Upu> other than not converting a bmp to a job that is..
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[20:32] <SpeedEvil> what are the 27prf?
[20:33] <Upu> filter on the serial ports from the GPS
[20:33] <Upu> not essential but recommended on the data sheet so...
[20:34] <Upu> its my first proper PCB and it just looks far too complicated to me :)
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> 27pF?
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> Seems high
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> I don't see anything fundametnally obvious.
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> err
[20:35] <SpeedEvil> low
[20:35] <Upu> yep datasheet says 27pF / 33ohm resistor
[20:35] <Upu> it works without them
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[20:36] <SpeedEvil> you want to avoid HF noise I suppose.
[20:36] <SpeedEvil> It's a possibility that tehy found it jams it.
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[21:10] <chris_99> hi guys, where do you guys in the UK get your balloons from?
[21:11] <sbasuita> chris_99: steve randall aka rocketboy
[21:11] <Randomskk> aka randomengineering
[21:12] <sbasuita> http://www.randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Engineering/Welcome.html
[21:12] <Randomskk> ^ indeed
[21:12] <chris_99> thanks :)
[21:12] <sbasuita> hmm so a senior science dude at school approached us and said he wants us to enter a balloon project in some national science competition
[21:13] <jcoxon> sbasuita, interesting
[21:13] <Randomskk> do it, you might win prizes
[21:13] <Randomskk> or meet beautiful women who are impressed by science, I guess?
[21:13] <Randomskk> competitions are great
[21:13] <sbasuita> http://www.thebigbangfair.co.uk/nsec/
[21:14] <jcoxon> do it
[21:14] <sbasuita> need to get back to work on alien
[21:14] <sbasuita> nothing happened over the summer
[21:15] <jcoxon> i think DanielRichman has been up to stuff
[21:15] <jcoxon> that said he is a machine
[21:15] <sbasuita> oh yeah
[21:15] <sbasuita> he's been doing some circuit work i think
[21:15] <jcoxon> wouldn't take him long to make an apollo rocket
[21:15] <sbasuita> but need to get a proper plan together
[21:16] <sbasuita> also need to do something impressive to do well in this comp i think ;)
[21:16] <Randomskk> land on the moon
[21:17] <sbasuita> http://www.thebigbangfair.co.uk/nsec/2010_results/senior_category.cfm
[21:17] <Randomskk> don't lie on the floor like that for photos, though
[21:17] <Randomskk> I think last year's young engineer of the year is in my cohort here
[21:17] <Randomskk> for making some piece of drivel with an xbee and a picaxe and a gps
[21:18] <sbasuita> :P
[21:18] <jcoxon> wholly poo: vitro models using fish macrophages to investigate latency in Tuberculosis
[21:18] <Randomskk> the outcome of all this crap always seems to be "kids can't actually do anything real, but lookit them try"
[21:19] <Randomskk> "here, they tried to do some science, but it's a bit like a school science fair, still let's inspire them, here is some prizes and some dude to shake your hand, good luck becoming a Real Scientist"
[21:19] Action: Randomskk is not bitter
[21:19] <sbasuita> how hard is air sampling?
[21:19] <jcoxon> sbasuita, depends what you are looking for
[21:19] <sbasuita> jcoxon: return of samples to surface?
[21:20] <Randomskk> oh actually I think that James Buckley in the Highly Commended section is the guy from cambridge I was talking about
[21:20] <jcoxon> sbasuita, not too hard i guess
[21:21] <sbasuita> jcoxon: yeah, i assume the hardest bit will be sealing test tubes
[21:21] <jcoxon> but the people who won the cusf prize did exactly that
[21:21] <sbasuita> jcoxon: did they publish any information?
[21:21] <sbasuita> or maybe we could get in touch
[21:21] <jcoxon> nothing yet iirc
[21:21] <sbasuita> i think that would be a good payload since it combines engineering, tech, science etc
[21:22] <sbasuita> DanielRichman: what do you think?
[21:23] <Randomskk> he is asleep I think
[21:23] <Randomskk> 21:05:14 <DanielRichman> Will be back tomorrow
[21:23] <jcoxon> sbasuita, check out micro-dirac
[21:23] <Randomskk> that is, 22:05
[21:23] <sbasuita> Randomskk: you're right, he's not on skype
[21:24] <jcoxon> this is what i flew in africa
[21:24] <jcoxon> http://rsi.aip.org/resource/1/rsinak/v71/i12/p4553_s1?isAuthorized=no
[21:25] <sbasuita> interesting
[21:25] <jcoxon> i didn't make it of course :-p
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[21:25] <jcoxon> how about something medical
[21:25] <jcoxon> but on a balloon
[21:25] <jcoxon> i know that sounds silly
[21:26] <Randomskk> basically target climate change or people dying
[21:26] <Randomskk> preferably from cancer
[21:26] <Randomskk> climate change is probably easier
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[21:26] <Randomskk> CO2 sensor?
[21:26] <Randomskk> nah, though
[21:26] <Randomskk> a graph of CO2 isn't that impactful or novel
[21:26] <Randomskk> you want something that solves the problem rather than measuring it for a competition
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[21:27] <sbasuita> Randomskk: you say that, but look at the 2010 winner
[21:27] <sbasuita> Tom created a system of mapping the beach and built up a dataset of 13,000 points so that erosion can be monitored in the future.
[21:27] <sbasuita> that's purely measurement
[21:27] <sbasuita> but i take your point
[21:28] <jcoxon> sbasuita, you could expand on the emergency balloon concept
[21:29] <sbasuita> jcoxon: actually i was just pondering that
[21:29] <jcoxon> as in : natural distater
[21:29] <Randomskk> I like the idea of providing emergency comms for disaster areas, too
[21:29] <sbasuita> you could go for the comms, imagery, etc
[21:29] <jcoxon> launch balloon - comms, mapping etc
[21:29] <jcoxon> exactly
[21:29] <Randomskk> you could take ariel photos and be a repeater for people on the ground
[21:29] <sbasuita> surely you'd want to tether though
[21:29] <Randomskk> plus, provide wireless internet and cell phone
[21:29] <sbasuita> ah that could be very interesting
[21:29] <Randomskk> sbasuita: or just launch several and recover etc
[21:29] <Randomskk> one can run ones own gsm now
[21:29] <Randomskk> check out how they did it at burning man, but basically some USRPs and a laptop and some antennas and you are sorted
[21:29] <jcoxon> how about create a 'zigbee' messaging system
[21:30] <Randomskk> VoIP backhaul
[21:30] <sbasuita> i like the idea of an inflatable, instant comms infrastructure
[21:31] <Randomskk> plus mapping
[21:31] <Randomskk> reference OSM's efforts to do emergency mapping
[21:31] <Randomskk> balloon with camera could provide the imagery
[21:31] <sbasuita> mmm
[21:31] <jcoxon> sbasuita, how about this
[21:31] <jcoxon> use the balloon as repeater for a personal locator
[21:32] <jcoxon> so every one has gps+radio
[21:32] <jcoxon> the balloon acts as a repeater
[21:32] <jcoxon> so an emergency team can monitor everyone
[21:32] <sbasuita> wow
[21:33] <sbasuita> there are loads of possibilites with this idea
[21:33] <Randomskk> you could wholesale nick that other dude's idea and do it for duke of edinburgh groups
[21:35] <jcoxon> sbasuita, so you'd need a high power light weight uplink
[21:35] <jcoxon> then a balloon rx
[21:35] <jcoxon> which then downlinks everything to base
[21:36] <sbasuita> could turn the whole thing into a distributed mesh network
[21:36] <Randomskk> everything is better when turned into a distributed mesh network
[21:36] <sbasuita> hack the olpc software
[21:36] <sbasuita> ; )
[21:36] <Randomskk> DanielRichman and I spent a long time talking about doing the distributed listener thing as a mesh network
[21:36] <sbasuita> DO IT
[21:36] <jcoxon> why?
[21:36] <Randomskk> we decided not to
[21:37] <Randomskk> but we did evalate the idea heavily
[21:37] <jcoxon> there is no additional benefit as its not like we have un reliable critical links
[21:37] <Randomskk> check out tapestry, chimera, other next-gen distributed hash tables
[21:37] <jcoxon> sure the chase car is an issue
[21:37] <jcoxon> but actually the key listeners are ground stations with home broadband
[21:37] <sbasuita> yeah, in practical terms it wouldn't be useful in the majority of situations
[21:37] <Randomskk> jcoxon: yea. it allowed all sorts of quite exciting ideas, but nothing actually important
[21:37] <Randomskk> also technically it was a very fun thing to toy with
[21:37] <Randomskk> but yea, pointless.
[21:38] <Randomskk> tapestry/chimera is super duper mega ultra neat
[21:38] <sbasuita> anyway i've gtg now
[21:38] <Randomskk> it's like, very clever
[21:38] <sbasuita> cheers for the ideas
[21:38] <Randomskk> gl if you do enter
[21:38] <sbasuita> thanks
[21:38] <jcoxon> yeah keep us updated
[21:40] Action: jcoxon got some supplies today
[21:41] <jcoxon> some transistors, ds18b20s, photoresistors and headers
[21:41] <jcoxon> now just need the boards to arrive
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[23:48] <Dan-K2VOL> hola
[00:00] --- Tue Sep 28 2010