highaltitude.log.20100925

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[08:55] <m1x10> yo all
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[09:10] <earthshine> morning
[09:15] <fsphil> morning!
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[09:46] <MrCraig> dunno if this is useful to anyone, but Argos are doing a clearance of refurbed 10mp Alba digital camera's - 39 of them at £29.99 each via ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ALBA-SL1031-10MP-DIGITAL-CAMERA-SILVER-REFURB-/330453334045?pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_DigitalCameras_DigitalCameras_JN&hash=item4cf08db81d
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[10:14] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
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[10:25] <MrCraig> So, any transmitter between 433Mhz and 434Mhz is both license exempt and permitted for airborne use within 500mW - that about right?
[10:26] <DanielRichman> I don't think so
[10:26] <DanielRichman> I think that it's only license exempt if the specific transmitter has been declared/made so
[10:27] <DanielRichman> though I may be wrong. The rules are a bit of a pain to understand
[10:27] <DanielRichman> especially due to the mix between EU, UK, and various other certifications and rules
[10:27] <DanielRichman> and the differences between them all
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[10:31] <MrCraig> Well I'm passing by RS Components today, and figured I could stop in to stat buying components. They have two transmitter modules that state they are license exempt and operate on 433Mhz and 433.62Mhz - although they are exempt I don't understand if they are legal for airborne use
[10:32] <MrCraig> They're AM too
[10:34] <MrCraig> The UK sux for legislation :-/
[10:50] <fsphil> aye
[10:50] <MrCraig> well I'm gonna pick up both those modules anyhow - they're only around £5 each so if it's a bad choice it's no biggie
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[10:51] <nathan7> hi, high-flying world!
[10:51] <fsphil> afaik, anything in the 433.x band can be used in the air -- as long as it's been certified, which is must be for them to sell it
[10:51] <MrCraig> Still need to get myself a transciever to listen for the thing
[10:51] <MrCraig> hi nathan7
[10:53] <MrCraig> I made a bit of a mistake - the first time I read from the uk-has site about which radio's are suitable, I went on over to ebay and searched for the yaesu 790 and found one at £100! The mistake I made was not buying that one right there and then.
[10:53] <MrCraig> :-)
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[10:57] <fsphil> yea there hasn't been one on ebay for a while now
[10:58] <MrCraig> I don't mind splashing out a little extra for a more expensive model, but it sticks a thorn in my side that I missed that chance cos £100 seems to be a bargain for anything on 70cm and SSB enabled.... though I don't fully understand why ssb either. Still so much to learn
[11:00] <MrCraig> right - can't sit here all day long (nice as it would be) - stuff to go do. be back laters.
[11:00] <fsphil> later!
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[11:10] <Darkside> hmm
[11:10] <Darkside> anyone have the rest of this code: http://ukhas.org.uk/code:interrupt_driven_nmea?
[11:10] <Darkside> http://ukhas.org.uk/code:interrupt_driven_nmea
[11:11] <Darkside> since that's incomplete, and there's a few things there i'm still not sure about
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[11:13] <Laurenceb> hi
[11:15] <Darkside> hey Laurenceb
[11:15] <Darkside> do you have the rest of the interrupt driven nmea code?
[11:15] <Darkside> http://ukhas.org.uk/code:interrupt_driven_nmea
[11:15] <Darkside> since that's incomplete - there's a few definitions missing, and a few other things i'm not sure about
[11:17] <Darkside> the definition of the gps_type struct is one, and the variable 'minutes' is another (or is it a define?)
[11:19] <Laurenceb> take the header from here http://ukhas.org.uk/code:i2c_ubx
[11:19] <Laurenceb> minutes is a macro - sorry should have been capitalised
[11:20] <Laurenceb> 1/60 i think
[11:20] <Darkside> the gps struct isnt the same
[11:21] <Darkside> i think the one from the interrupt_driven_nmea has the lat and long as floats
[11:21] <nathan7> awesome
[11:21] <Darkside> gps.latitude=(float)atoi(buffer);
[11:21] <nathan7> uh, wrong chan >_<
[11:21] <Laurenceb> yes - ubx uses integers
[11:22] <Darkside> hmm
[11:22] <Darkside> ok, i can probably modify stuff to make it work then..
[11:22] <Darkside> hopefully it won't cause the problems with -lm that i've had before
[11:23] <Darkside> when -lm is on the linker list, my RTTY timing goes to hell
[11:23] <fsphil> is that code doing float conversion in an interrupt?
[11:23] <Darkside> nope
[11:24] <Darkside> actually.
[11:24] <fsphil> the nmea parser .. I'd have thought that would be fairly slow
[11:24] <Darkside> i'm not doing the RTTY code in interrupts... i'm doing it blocking, with _delay_ms calls >_>
[11:24] <Darkside> and i'm passing a double to _delay_ms... that's probably my issue
[11:25] <fsphil> ah
[11:25] <Darkside> i think the math libraries take over the convertion from double within the _delay_ms call, and make it take longer, or something weird
[11:25] <Darkside> because my timing for the RTTY code ends up close, but not quite right
[11:26] <fsphil> a buy interrupt can cause _delay_ms to sleep longer too
[11:27] <fsphil> buy=busy
[11:27] <Darkside> yeah this was without any interrupts running
[11:27] <fsphil> weird
[11:27] <Darkside> i knew that might have been a problem, and checked with them all disabled
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[11:28] <fsphil> speaking of interrupts, anyone know if an ISR function itself be interrupted?
[11:28] <SpeedEvil> Maybe.
[11:28] <SpeedEvil> It depends on the CPU, and your interrupt routines.
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> And interrupt priorities.
[11:29] <fsphil> atmega -- my rtty is interrupt driven, but I also have an interrupt for the uart port to read the gps data
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> For example - a serial interrupt will not trigger during an illegal opcode interrupt
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> You would generally setup the interrupt routine to handle that then - enable interrupts from both sources.
[11:30] <fsphil> I'd like the rtty timer interrupt to keep firing even when the uart interrupt is working
[11:30] <Darkside> i doubt the uart interrupt would cause enough delay to cause the RTTY timing to be out
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> Then when you get an interrupt, check if you're already in the interrupt handler. If you are, make a note that at the end of processing the current interrupt you have another interrupt to process.
[11:31] <SpeedEvil> and return
[11:35] <DanielRichman> ISRs on avr-libc cannot be interrupted unless you specifically let them be
[11:35] <DanielRichman> avr-libc will wrap all ISRs in a cli() (function) sei()
[11:35] <DanielRichman> to prevent interrupting.
[11:35] <SpeedEvil> yes - I was assuming that you'd be doing it yourself.
[11:36] <DanielRichman> fsphil: http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/group__avr__interrupts.html read "Nested Interrupts"
[11:36] <SpeedEvil> It's not in principle impossible, it does require thought and is really hard to do generically in libraries and work for all interrupts without using lots of resources
[11:36] <fsphil> heh, reading that now DanielRichman
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[11:37] <DanielRichman> oh, I was wrong; "The AVR hardware clears the global interrupt flag in SREG before entering an interrupt vector."
[11:37] <DanielRichman> and RETI will enable it
[11:39] <fsphil> thanks guys
[11:52] <Laurenceb> ive cone interruptable interrupts
[11:52] <Laurenceb> you have to be very careful and think about all the circumstances that can arise
[11:56] <DanielRichman> indeed. And if you start continously interrupting your interrupt you'll smash your stack into bss (and the heap if you're using it)
[11:56] <DanielRichman> not to mention crashing the program
[12:00] <Darkside> haha
[12:00] <Darkside> PICs have fun issues with that
[12:00] <Darkside> 7 level stacks are SHIT
[12:00] <DanielRichman> 7 level stacks?
[12:01] <Darkside> the pic16f877A has a length 7 stack
[12:01] <Darkside> or something like that
[12:01] <DanielRichman> what, 7 frames?
[12:01] <Darkside> anyway, if you use a shit compiler, it sometimes blows the stack, and the program screws up
[12:01] <Darkside> yeah, whatever it is
[12:02] <DanielRichman> I think avr just relies on you not to use a massive stack
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[12:02] <DanielRichman> aiui it will explode if you do it wrong.
[12:02] <DanielRichman> bss, data, heap grow up from the bottom of the RAM
[12:02] <DanielRichman> and the stack grows down from the top
[12:02] <DanielRichman> so I think you have to be careful not to use so much stack that it crashes into the heap/bss
[12:04] <Darkside> heh
[12:04] <Darkside> i need to try the xmega EBI trick at some point..
[12:04] <Darkside> since i do have an xplain board with 8mb of SDRAM
[12:04] <DanielRichman> oh right yeah
[12:04] <DanielRichman> same. I haven't used the 8mb at all
[12:05] <Darkside> heh
[12:05] <m1x10> cigarette time :p
[12:06] <Darkside> :/
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[12:11] <fsphil> euu
[12:14] <Laurenceb> i see no reason why nmea parsing ISR triggered by the uart and a timer overflow isr to run the rtty couldnt coexist
[12:14] <DanielRichman> oh alien1 they coexisted just fine
[12:14] <DanielRichman> *on
[12:15] <fsphil> is it possible to measure the execution time of an isr?
[12:15] <DanielRichman> you could start a timer at the start of the isr and stop it at the end
[12:16] <fsphil> what would drive the timer?
[12:16] <DanielRichman> or depending on how many times it branches and whether it has any loops you could simply count up the bytes of .text used and divide by 4
[12:16] <fsphil> ooh
[12:16] <DanielRichman> TIMER2 for example
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[12:21] <m1x10> anyone here wants to sell me in a good price his second handed fsa03 ?????
[12:22] <Darkside> why does everyone use FSA03s?
[12:22] <Darkside> there's plenty of other ublox5 fgps modules around
[12:22] <Darkside> gps*
[12:25] <m1x10> Darkside so us some examples
[12:25] <m1x10> show*
[12:26] <Laurenceb> floating point on avr is suprisingly fast
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[12:26] <Laurenceb> most floating point operations are only around 100 clk cycles
[12:27] <Laurenceb> the fsa03 is very light and has a nice antenna
[12:27] <Laurenceb> also it has the ublox 5010 chipset which is more of a ublox5.5 than 5
[12:28] <Laurenceb> it has most of the same front end silicon as ublox6 aiui
[12:28] <Darkside> i have a DGS-D2523 module
[12:28] <Darkside> which has the sarantel geohelix antenna too
[12:28] <Laurenceb> ublox6 has only just become avaliable and its samples only atm
[12:28] <Laurenceb> FSA03 is 9.8grams
[12:29] <Laurenceb> but yeah im designing a board with ublox6 atm
[12:30] <Laurenceb> you can pick up sarantel ants very easily now and just stick them on a UFL pigtail cable
[12:30] <Laurenceb> that gives you more mounting flexability
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[12:42] <chris_99> with all the ublox GPS modules, are the pins SMD underneath the package
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[13:00] <Laurenceb> so
[13:01] <Laurenceb> they are pretty easy to hand solder
[13:01] <Laurenceb> well easier than this http://i.imgur.com/NXaBW.jpg
[13:02] <chris_99> heh wow
[13:02] <chris_99> is it a case of applying normal solder to the pads
[13:02] <chris_99> or does it require special paste
[13:03] <Laurenceb> just tin with solder
[13:03] <Laurenceb> then fklux over the top, then put the module in place
[13:03] <Laurenceb> and reflow the sodler
[13:05] <chris_99> when you say in place, i presume you mean on the PCB its going to be attached too, in this case, how would you heat up the solder again?
[13:05] <Laurenceb> heat the sides of the pads
[13:10] <chris_99> cheers for the advice, i'd like to start SMD components soon
[13:16] <m1x10> Does anyone know where I can find those headers? http://www.youritronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/BlueRover.jpg
[13:18] <m1x10> those looking sidewards
[13:19] <SpeedEvil> digikey.
[13:19] <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately.
[13:19] <SpeedEvil> their connectors page is a mess.
[13:20] <SpeedEvil> But any broadline electronics distributor should have them
[13:20] <m1x10> http://www.futurlec.com/ConnHead.shtml
[13:20] <The-Compiler> digikey is a mess in general.
[13:21] <m1x10> yeah that site looks strange
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[14:47] <Hiena> ' morning!
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[15:05] <Darkside> hehehe, this 7805 is getting HOT...
[15:05] <Darkside> 300mA at 12v into it..
[15:05] <Darkside> no fraking wonder its hot..
[15:07] <russss> they're rated at 1A
[15:07] <russss> aren't they?
[15:07] <Randomskk> with a big heatsink, sure
[15:07] <russss> nice little heater at least
[15:07] <Randomskk> hehe yea
[15:07] <Randomskk> this is one issue with using switched PSUs on balloons
[15:07] <Randomskk> everything freezes up :P
[15:08] <Darkside> this one only has a little heatsink on it
[15:08] <Darkside> but the heatsink is hot enough to burn me
[15:08] <Darkside> ooh
[15:08] <russss> I suppose the problem with balloons is that there's no air to convect with at altitude
[15:08] <Darkside> i wonder if it will char paper
[15:08] <DanielRichman> we found that the camera was the thing keeping the payload warm
[15:09] <Darkside> ok its hot enough to make thermal paper go blac
[15:10] <Darkside> w00
[15:10] <Darkside> i wish i had a temp sensor around..
[15:11] <Darkside> and this bloody gps module still doesn't have lock.
[15:11] <chris_99> whats the 7805 powering Darkside?
[15:12] <Darkside> my ad9835, and a 3.3v LDO regulator :P
[15:13] <Darkside> 12v -> 5v -> 3.3v
[15:13] <Darkside> the LDO regulator is nice and cool
[15:13] <Darkside> i need to get a switchmode regulator, so i dont have this problem..
[15:14] <chris_99> interesting, whats the ad9835 for
[15:15] <Darkside> signal generator
[15:15] <Darkside> produces the RF for transmission
[15:16] <chris_99> neat, so do you need to up the power from that at all, to make radio waves
[15:16] <Darkside> yeah, it only puts out 500mVp-p at 7MHz
[15:16] <Darkside> so i have a little amp which bumps that up to 4Vp-p, or 40mW
[15:17] <chris_99> funky
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[15:18] <Darkside> hm, well i should probably go to bed
[15:18] <Darkside> and try this out again tomorrow
[15:18] <Darkside> might have to put the gps module outside for a while for it to get lock
[15:19] <chris_99> good luck
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[15:40] <m1x10> anyone used sd cards to store flight data?
[15:46] <DanielRichman> yes
[15:46] <DanielRichman> I have. It worked very well
[15:53] <m1x10> well, your sd speaks SPI too ?
[15:56] <m1x10> ping DanielRichman
[15:56] <Randomskk> all SD cards speak SPI.
[15:56] <DanielRichman> All sd cards can use SPi
[15:56] <Randomskk> it's part of the SD card standard.
[15:56] <DanielRichman> s/use/be used over/
[15:57] <m1x10> ok
[15:57] <m1x10> you worked it with arduino?
[15:57] <m1x10> i guess not :)
[15:57] <Randomskk> it can be worked with arduino, though. there are libraries to make it very easy.
[15:58] <m1x10> are there any libs that have been used on HAB before
[15:58] <m1x10> ?
[16:00] <DanielRichman> there are arduino libraries and an arduino thing. For the arduino it's very easy
[16:01] <m1x10> DanielRichman have any link?
[16:01] <DanielRichman> on ALIEN I wanted it to do something special which may have been irrational
[16:01] <DanielRichman> http://www.sensor-networks.org/index.php?page=0827727742
[16:03] <DanielRichman> http://blushingboy.net/p/SDuFAT/
[16:03] <DanielRichman> m1x10: there
[16:05] <m1x10> grabbed
[16:06] <m1x10> so u need to format me with fat16
[16:06] <m1x10> then place some files on it
[16:06] <m1x10> and the sketch writes data to those existant files
[16:08] <DanielRichman> yes
[16:08] <Laurenceb> wow
[16:08] <Laurenceb> fat16 in 7kb
[16:08] <Laurenceb> thats the best ive seen
[16:08] <m1x10> hehe
[16:08] <m1x10> so this lib read/writes at byte level
[16:08] <m1x10> nice
[16:09] <m1x10> pretty easy
[16:10] <m1x10> SD cards are read/written in blocks of 512 bytes
[16:10] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb: fat is overrated
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[16:12] <Laurenceb> yes true
[16:12] <m1x10> DanielRichman, thx a lot. This should be the best choice for me.
[16:12] <DanielRichman> m1x10: yeah they are. However using SPI you can "pause" the data when you are the master. That library, however, does not do that, so will munch up 512 bytes of bss for itself. It is indeed the best choice though just because it will be easy to use
[16:13] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: your seedstudio boards, have you tried putting solderstop over vias?
[16:14] <Randomskk> yes
[16:14] <Randomskk> it mostly works but don't rely on it
[16:14] <Laurenceb> did you get some with small raised areas?
[16:14] <Randomskk> not that I remember
[16:14] <m1x10> DanielRichman a SPI lib exists in the last arduino core. Isnt that useful to write data? or its more complex that i think?
[16:14] <Laurenceb> i cant work out what causes them - it looks like someone put droplets of solder stop over the top
[16:14] <Laurenceb> maybe air bubbles trapped inside the via i guess
[16:15] <Randomskk> could be air bubbles
[16:15] <DanielRichman> if you use a bare SPI lib then you'd have to handle the sd card protocol etc. that's probably not worth it
[16:15] <Randomskk> also FAT
[16:15] <DanielRichman> if you wanted to use FAT
[16:15] <Randomskk> true
[16:15] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: i have 14 boards now http://i.imgur.com/NXaBW.jpg http://i.imgur.com/wX5kF.jpg
[16:16] <Laurenceb> if you email me your adress your welcome to have a few
[16:16] <Randomskk> hmm, my room network now has 24 ethernet sockets in it
[16:16] <m1x10> DanielRichman, Im buying this -> http://www.cutedigi.com/product_info.php?products_id=4435&osCsid=8f5886745c45c7864cb725c59a3a43d7
[16:16] <m1x10> so I have the SPI protocol ready but I need to speak the fat16 protocol later..
[16:17] <DanielRichman> m1x10: I think you could use - check rejects garbage set
[16:17] <DanielRichman> - check rejects invalid types
[16:17] <DanielRichman> - rejects nonserver (FAILED)
[16:17] <DanielRichman> - setup called
[16:17] <Laurenceb> <- needs to do a proper BOM .xls
[16:17] <DanielRichman> gahh epic copy paste fail
[16:17] <DanielRichman> sorry.
[16:17] <Randomskk> could have been a lot worse
[16:17] <DanielRichman> m1x10: I think you could use http://blushingboy.net/p/SDuFAT/ with that thing you are getting
[16:17] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: I'm careful about what goes onto the clipboard, not what comes off it
[16:18] <m1x10> DanielRichman, thats the 2nd time you point me to this link.
[16:18] <DanielRichman> I know m1x10
[16:18] <m1x10> but we already talk about this lib. right?
[16:18] <DanielRichman> yes.
[16:18] <DanielRichman> 16:17 < m1x10> so I have the SPI protocol ready but I need to speak the fat16 protocol later..
[16:18] <DanielRichman> I thought you were implying that you wouldn't be able to use that library. I think you could, though I am not sure.
[16:18] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: I mean, it could have been 128 lines
[16:19] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: irssi catches you if you do that
[16:19] <m1x10> DanielRichman, I meant that this lib takes care of both the SPI+FAT so I dont need to use the arduino core SPI.
[16:19] <DanielRichman> m1x10: yep
[16:19] <m1x10> :)
[16:19] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: true
[16:20] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: I thought you meant "you could have sprayed root passwords all over the internet"
[16:20] <DanielRichman> not that I use root passwords >.>
[16:20] <DanielRichman> or put them on the clipboard
[16:20] <Randomskk> of course. >.>
[16:20] <m1x10> though it would be nice to do some readByte/writeByte through SPI to see whats happening in the card
[16:20] <Randomskk> right, I need to make 10 ethernet enabled devices to use up my remaining sockets
[16:21] <Randomskk> nerf gun, a few RGB lights, maybe an IP cam, a motion sensor maybe
[16:21] <DanielRichman> haha
[16:21] <DanielRichman> ethernet everything
[16:21] <Randomskk> it's the cool way to control things
[16:21] <m1x10> why do we need to format it anyway? filesystems are useful when we have much things to organize. Here we just need raw ascii bytes in a couple of files. right?
[16:22] <Randomskk> also means legit requirement for a load of switches and ethernet cabling
[16:22] <Randomskk> m1x10: yea, you could not use a filesystem.
[16:22] <m1x10> yeah sound more sensible to me
[16:22] <DanielRichman> someone pulled some 10BASE2 kit out of the attic today, so now I have a surplus of nice 50ohm BNC ended cables
[16:22] <Randomskk> so like, RGB power LEDs to light up the walls various exciting colours and/or notify on new email/irssi highlight/rss/whatever
[16:22] <Randomskk> nerf gun can be ethernet controlled
[16:22] <DanielRichman> m1x10: you would use fat because the SD card library uses fat ;)
[16:22] <Randomskk> I have my old laptop here to act as a 'room server'
[16:23] <DanielRichman> but yeah, I didn't use fat and just wrote raw data to the card
[16:23] <m1x10> DanielRichman, yeah
[16:23] <Randomskk> I plan to run some kind of program on it that will give a nice MovieOS screen with an overview of room status. :
[16:23] <m1x10> i wont use it
[16:23] <Randomskk> :3 *
[16:23] <DanielRichman> MovieOS <3
[16:23] <Randomskk> m1x10: I would recommend using it though, to be honest
[16:23] <Randomskk> way easier
[16:23] <m1x10> :p
[16:23] <Randomskk> easier to read files later, especially if your µC dies but you recover the SD card
[16:23] <DanielRichman> Spooks' MovieOS is quite cool; has IP addresses with the number 810 in them
[16:23] <Randomskk> hah nice
[16:23] <m1x10> I just need to hold some indexes.
[16:24] <Randomskk> I want like, a trace outline of my room, with popouts where devices are, and big flashy messages
[16:24] <m1x10> EEPROS can store some :)
[16:24] <m1x10> EEPROM
[16:24] <Randomskk> if the door opens I want INTRUDER ALERT in big
[16:24] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: while you're att it, motorize the blind/curtains, add voice recognition, motorize the door and control the room lights by arduino
[16:24] <Randomskk> hehe yup
[16:24] <DanielRichman> COMPUTER! CLOSE THE DOOR! SHOOT THIS GUY!
[16:25] <Randomskk> wanna motorise the door lock
[16:25] <Randomskk> but it's a multi-turn thing, so quite tricky
[16:25] <Randomskk> voice recognition would be very fun
[16:25] <Randomskk> microchip do a microchip that you talk to over SPI
[16:25] <Randomskk> and it does ethernet for you
[16:25] <Randomskk> it comes in QFN and SOIC and DIP 28
[16:25] <Randomskk> it costs like, £2
[16:25] <Randomskk> and goes right to a magjack
[16:25] <Randomskk> fantastic
[16:25] <Randomskk> that + avr = £5 for a working ethernet device
[16:26] <DanielRichman> that's... very cool
[16:26] <Randomskk> compare to £30 for an arduino ethernet shield and £20 for an arduino
[16:26] <DanielRichman> so with two chips and some caps you can nmap a PoE network with something palm sized
[16:26] <DanielRichman> does the microchip do the TCP?
[16:27] <Randomskk> not entirely sure
[16:27] <Randomskk> if it doesn't, uIP runs on AVRs no problem
[16:27] <Randomskk> if it does, even easier
[16:27] <m1x10> DanielRichman, writing raw bytes was successful to ALien 1?
[16:28] <DanielRichman> yeah. But very complicated, and was on an atmega162
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[16:28] <m1x10> where does the complicated go ?
[16:28] <DanielRichman> on ALIEN1 I wanted to be able to simultaneously transmit rtty, read the gps, read the temperature sensors and write to the sd card
[16:28] <DanielRichman> and it worked.
[16:28] <DanielRichman> EVERYTHING was interrupt based
[16:29] <DanielRichman> so every single string generated by the gps went onto the sd card
[16:29] <DanielRichman> and it didn't require 512 bytes of bss
[16:30] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: only 10mbps, but that's more than sufficient for this kind of application. 8kb buffer onboard, too, and hardware checksum assist, but it doesn't look like it does tcp
[16:30] <Randomskk> so, uIP on the AVR
[16:30] <Randomskk> gives you an IP stack
[16:30] <Randomskk> interface that to the chip over SPI
[16:30] <Randomskk> sorted
[16:31] <DanielRichman> also means you can do other crazy stuff if you want like UDP
[16:31] <Randomskk> yea
[16:31] <DanielRichman> or dodgy nmapping methods
[16:31] <Randomskk> UDP is tempting given as it is stateless
[16:31] <m1x10> DanielRichman, I also do it this way. I read in a serial manner all the sensors + gps + whatever. Everything is saved in a byte array and then written to SD.
[16:31] <Randomskk> I guess I'll do RGB lights first
[16:31] <Randomskk> they're easy as a proof of concept
[16:31] <Laurenceb> http://gb.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STEVAL-MKI064V1/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtlZAfbtrLeywTnD%2fPrn71o
[16:31] <Laurenceb> ^nice
[16:31] <Randomskk> or maybe some kind of little desktop notifier
[16:32] <m1x10> So what could be complicated?
[16:32] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: what is this chip, I am interested now :P
[16:32] <Randomskk> ENC28J60
[16:32] <Randomskk> in 28QFN, 28SOIC, 28SDIP, 28SSOP
[16:32] <DanielRichman> m1x10: in most payloads it takes 15 seconds to transmit a rtty string. During this time it's blocked in whateveryourrttyfunctionis() -> delay().
[16:32] <Randomskk> /ML, /SO, /SP, /SS respectively
[16:33] <DanielRichman> therefore it can't read the gps sensors or write to the SD card during those 15 seconds
[16:33] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: thank you
[16:33] <Darkside> 15 seconds? :/
[16:33] <DanielRichman> at 50baud ~75 chars yeah I think that's about right
[16:33] <Darkside> heh
[16:33] <Darkside> juxta did 300 baud on horus
[16:33] <DanielRichman> 2 seconds :P
[16:33] <Darkside> worked like a charm
[16:33] <m1x10> DanielRichman, you read the devices all the time?
[16:34] <DanielRichman> well the temperature sensors only had to be read every 60s
[16:34] <DanielRichman> but yeah. I read the gps at the same time as transmitting
[16:34] <m1x10> I just read all devices at once, transmit, sleep(60s)....again read all devices, etc
[16:35] <DanielRichman> you're doing APRS ?
[16:35] <m1x10> y
[16:35] <DanielRichman> ALIEN1 was a threaded program on hardware that couldn't do threading, essentially
[16:36] <m1x10> so I think i wont find something complicated.
[16:36] <m1x10> your software was interrupt driven?
[16:36] <DanielRichman> yes
[16:36] <m1x10> oh my!
[16:36] <m1x10> nice
[16:36] <m1x10> but for my case is not the suitable
[16:37] <m1x10> now with SD i will go like: read all devices at once, save, transmit, sleep
[16:37] <DanielRichman> yeah probably
[16:37] <DanielRichman> http://github.com/danielrichman/alien/blob/master/alien1/atmega162/final/main.c
[16:37] <DanielRichman> ^^ that's how interrupt driven it was
[16:37] <m1x10> but why did u want everything to happen at the same time? why u want to save and read from gps at same time ?
[16:38] <Randomskk> a real man would have the initialisation code be interrupt driven too
[16:38] <DanielRichman> haha
[16:38] <m1x10> hhahaha
[16:38] <DanielRichman> all those _init functions didn't block at all
[16:38] <Randomskk> I.. I don't quite know how. do AVRs fire an interrupt on boot?
[16:38] <Randomskk> I like to imagine they do
[16:38] <m1x10> a nice clean main()
[16:38] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: heh, fair enough
[16:38] <DanielRichman> I keep reading "reset vector" in teh avr docs
[16:38] <Randomskk> you don't exactly want incoming interrupts firing before other things are ready to deal with them, after all
[16:39] <Randomskk> I guess that'd be it.
[16:39] <DanielRichman> I think that it just jumps into gcc's .init sections
[16:39] <Randomskk> yea
[16:39] <DanielRichman> so in a way, main() is... interrupt driven?
[16:39] <Randomskk> ...
[16:39] <Randomskk> hmm.
[16:39] <Randomskk> >_>
[16:40] <m1x10> DanielRichman can u give a link to your sd read/write functions?
[16:40] <m1x10> im just curious :)
[16:40] <DanielRichman> it's all in here http://github.com/danielrichman/alien/tree/master/alien1/atmega162/final
[16:40] <DanielRichman> this is the sd card stuff http://github.com/danielrichman/alien/blob/master/alien1/atmega162/final/log.c
[16:41] <m1x10> different avr
[16:42] <m1x10> that code speak fat? or raw?
[16:42] <DanielRichman> raw
[16:42] <m1x10> nice
[16:42] <DanielRichman> Iirc to use it on an arduino you just needed to change the pins it setup as output/input for SPI
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[16:43] <m1x10> DanielRichman, now with the core SPI lib you just do spi.init()
[16:43] <m1x10> :)
[16:43] <DanielRichman> pssh.
[16:43] <m1x10> this lib should take some pain
[16:43] <m1x10> away
[16:43] <m1x10> i think most of the low level you do there
[16:43] <m1x10> now are done from the lib
[16:44] <DanielRichman> a spi lib doesn't really do much
[16:44] <DanielRichman> writing a spi byte is basically SPDR = byte;
[16:44] <DanielRichman> though you have to wait for it to complete of course, using an interrupt or a loop_until_bit_is_(un)set
[16:45] <m1x10> I havent seen the SPI before. I believe this would be a good chance :P
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[16:46] <m1x10> DanielRichman, get ready
[16:46] <m1x10> #include <SPI.h>
[16:47] <m1x10> SPI.begin();
[16:47] <m1x10> SPI.transfer(address);
[16:47] <m1x10> SPI.transfer(value);
[16:47] <m1x10> thats all
[16:47] <m1x10> haha
[16:47] <DanielRichman> :P
[16:48] <m1x10> though i dont understand how you read ?!?!
[16:49] <DanielRichman> with SPI the master and slave transmit simultaneously
[16:49] <m1x10> wait
[16:49] <DanielRichman> because the master controls the clock, whenever the master transmits one byte it simultaneously receives one back
[16:49] <DanielRichman> but will never receive one if it does not transmit
[16:49] <m1x10> ok
[16:50] <DanielRichman> (provided the slave is selected)
[16:50] <m1x10> so the spi.tranfer is used for both read/write?
[16:50] <DanielRichman> I don't know. I would imagine so
[16:50] <DanielRichman> or they would have called it spi.send
[16:50] <m1x10> no
[16:50] <m1x10> only this is provided
[16:50] <m1x10> byte SPIClass::transfer(byte _data) {
[16:50] <m1x10> SPDR = _data;
[16:50] <m1x10> while (!(SPSR & _BV(SPIF)))
[16:50] <m1x10> ;
[16:50] <m1x10> return SPDR;
[16:50] <m1x10> }
[16:51] <DanielRichman> yeah that looks correct. spi.transfer is used for both transmit and receive
[16:51] <m1x10> ok
[16:51] <m1x10> but where is the received value?
[16:51] <DanielRichman> i.e., received_byte = spi.transfer(tranmitted_byte);
[16:51] <m1x10> a ok
[16:51] <DanielRichman> "return SPDR;"
[16:52] <m1x10> it was on the tip of my tongue as i was tought to say in english school :P
[16:52] <DanielRichman> I've forgotten most of the foreign idioms I've been taught
[16:53] <m1x10> when I was at the english school our teachers were some very HOT BRIT girls
[16:53] <m1x10> i wish i had one of them
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[16:53] <m1x10> brunettes
[16:53] <m1x10> so nice
[16:53] <m1x10> i cant recall their names
[16:53] <m1x10> :P
[16:54] <m1x10> my first bad english words i learned was "kiss my ass" so funny
[16:54] <m1x10> we were telling this thins to the teachers hah
[16:55] <m1x10> 10 yr
[16:55] <m1x10> ok back again :p
[16:56] <m1x10> but how can i say to the transfer() write this byte to that place in sd?
[16:57] <m1x10> dont we need any indexes?
[16:57] <DanielRichman> all the spi lib will do is transmit a byte over spi
[16:57] <DanielRichman> SPI is simply a protocol to transfer data
[16:57] <DanielRichman> like serial
[16:57] <m1x10> y
[16:57] <m1x10> so?
[16:57] <m1x10> :p
[16:57] <DanielRichman> controlling where the byte goes is done by the sd card protocol
[16:57] <DanielRichman> for example a sequence of bytes would make up a write command
[16:57] <m1x10> oh
[16:57] <m1x10> oh2
[16:58] <m1x10> another protocol?
[16:58] <m1x10> lol
[16:58] <DanielRichman> then 512 bytes after that are placed in the position specified in the command on the card
[16:58] <m1x10> aaaa now i get it
[16:58] <m1x10> SPI protocol -> sd commands -> actual r/w
[16:58] <m1x10> or
[16:59] <m1x10> SPI protocol -> sd commands -> filesystem
[16:59] <DanielRichman> yup
[16:59] <m1x10> ok, got it 100%
[16:59] <m1x10> needs some study then
[17:00] <m1x10> where can i find those SD protocol commands?
[17:00] <DanielRichman> there's an obscure PDF somewhere
[17:00] <DanielRichman> like a bazillion pages long
[17:00] <m1x10> :p
[17:00] <m1x10> have one that is exactly for us?
[17:00] <m1x10> i mean all SD speak the same?
[17:01] <DanielRichman> http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/sdcard/pls/simplified_specs/Part_1_Physical_Layer_Simplified_Specification_Ver3.01_Final_100518.pdf
[17:01] <DanielRichman> this one looks similar though not identical to the one I used to write my sd code
[17:01] <m1x10> ok thank you
[17:02] <m1x10> I see that it supports panasonic,sandisk,toshiba. should be ok.
[17:02] <DanielRichman> it's not a SD card if it doesn't do what it says in that pdf
[17:04] <m1x10> so if a tranfer() sends only one byte, I need to send it multiple times to send a complete command.
[17:05] <m1x10> But when im about to receive the payload
[17:05] <m1x10> eg 50bytes
[17:05] <m1x10> i have to call 50 times the transfer?
[17:05] <m1x10> strange
[17:07] <DanielRichman> yeah that's right
[17:07] <DanielRichman> but its the same case with the Serial library
[17:07] <DanielRichman> however there is a function on top that will take every byte from a string and send it
[17:07] <DanielRichman> you could write such a function for SPI if you really wanted.
[17:08] <DanielRichman> eg; for (; *string != 0; string++) SPI.transfer(*string);
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[17:10] <m1x10> y
[17:10] <m1x10> sensible
[17:11] <m1x10> but wait
[17:11] <m1x10> for receive the 50b
[17:11] <m1x10> i call 50 times the transfer
[17:11] <m1x10> but with what parameter?
[17:11] <m1x10> i dont have a byte to send
[17:11] <m1x10> transfer(byte _data)
[17:12] <m1x10> that should be the sd protocol
[17:12] <m1x10> send some specific byte in order to receive payload bytes
[17:14] <DanielRichman> typically it won't matter
[17:14] <DanielRichman> for example you send the sd card a read command
[17:15] <DanielRichman> then the sd card will send back 512 bytes
[17:15] <DanielRichman> however it can only send it back when you transmit a byte
[17:15] <DanielRichman> so it will just ignore 512 bytes from the master
[17:15] <DanielRichman> standard practice is to just send 512 0xFF s
[17:15] <m1x10> yeah
[17:15] <m1x10> i should search for some examples
[17:16] <m1x10> thx for the help
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[17:39] <m1x10> DanielRichman, I just discovered this: http://code.google.com/p/fat16lib/downloads/list
[17:39] <m1x10> which is uptodate
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[17:41] <DanielRichman> mmm
[17:41] <m1x10> it has a very big documentation explaning many things
[17:42] <m1x10> and does all kind of things with fat16
[17:44] <m1x10> and http://code.google.com/p/sdfatlib/
[17:44] <m1x10> A FAT16/FAT32 Arduino library for SD/SDHC cards
[17:45] <DanielRichman> yeah but m1x10 the other one just works :P
[17:45] <DanielRichman> I will be back later
[17:48] <m1x10> :p
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[18:21] <Hiena> Hmmm... The ligbulb and 12cm PC fan dryer working as a charm. Dropped 60% water weight from the burning rods. Still have to make it outdoor compatible.
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> burning rods?
[18:22] <Hiena> Yep, still working on the enviroment friendly hybrid rocket engine.
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> ah
[18:24] <Hiena> Basically a 2" diameter charcoal rods with a 1/6" hole in the middle. Quite easy to make one but have to dry them under 10% for the correct operation.
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> KNO3/sugar
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> Get the saltpeter from old midden heaps, and the sugar from beets!
[18:25] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, that would put me to the jail. Here is quite strict the ammunition and exploxive laws.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> here too.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure it's an explosive though - if cast
[18:26] <Hiena> Also, the solid propellants quite hard to throttle.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> it's certainly a firework
[18:27] <SpeedEvil> regression rate generally varies significanrtly with chamber pressure, but yes
[18:28] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, here if the cops has evidence mixing up common household materials, they immediately charge you for explosive manufacturing even if you tries to make fireworks.
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> You're in .ie?
[18:29] Action: SpeedEvil forgets.
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> Today I have been moving way too many ricks.
[18:29] <Hiena> Only 3 days of the year, when fireworks allowed.
[18:29] <Hiena> Nope. .hu
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> ah.
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> Do you have a terrorist problem/have you had - or is it just general ass-hattedness?
[18:32] <Hiena> Just the general. We had some inbreed, wannabe terrorist group (Arrows of the Hungarians), but they was canned 2 years ago.
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> In the UK it's similarlyproblematic.
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> Hence I was looking at making liquid rocket engines, which are legal.
[18:33] <SpeedEvil> (well, if you don't fly them much)
[18:34] <Hiena> Usually the cops turns they heads away for the modell rocketry, and the rocketeers keep going to the unused firing fields.
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> Ah - model rocketry with canned propellant is legal in theUK
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> making your own propellant is functionally impossible.
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[18:35] <SpeedEvil> As in you need a fireworks factory licence, earth berms, ...
[18:35] <Hiena> The cops usually search for the solid propellants, because these usually similar with the DIY explosives. So the best way is not mixing them.
[18:38] <Hiena> The idea of the hybrid engine was the results of such thinking. The low grade peroxide and the charcoal is common household stuff, not rise suspicion.
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> you're gonna need to distill it somehow.
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> ISP is also gonna rather suck.
[18:42] <Hiena> Nope. What i working on is an engine operating on low pressure with 35% peroxide.
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> That's very little better than a water rocket
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> 35% has - IIRC - only enough energy to get to about 180C
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> That will not generally combust at all with most fuels, certainly not with charcoal except in the most extreme conditions.
[18:45] <Hiena> That is the extra pressurised air injection.
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> ?
[18:47] <Hiena> The key is the balance. At first start burning the charcoal with some airflow, when it's surface reached around 5-600C degree starts the H2O2 injection.
[18:49] <Hiena> The H2O2 decomposition and the water from the mixture makes high pressure steam, and the extra air keep the whole thing running.
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> Umm...
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> Sounds unlikely.
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> But I havenr't run the number.s
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> you need some truly massive airpumps don't you?
[18:51] <fsphil> really really big hydrogen balloon: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11411121 (needs flash)
[18:52] Action: SpeedEvil wants a fusion powered parachute.
[18:52] <fsphil> fusion powered ... parachute?
[18:53] <fsphil> I want a fusion powered rocket!
[18:54] <russss> obligatory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pulse_propulsion#Medusa
[18:56] <Hiena> It's like dancing on the knife edge. If the airflow cut the H2O2 will cool down the burn and flame off.
[19:02] <Laurenceb> anyone got a quote for the FSA03?
[19:02] <Laurenceb> direct from falcom
[19:03] Action: Laurenceb seems to remember something like 27 eurois
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[20:11] <Laurenceb> is there a way to make excel detect if a cell contains a number or not?
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[00:00] --- Sun Sep 26 2010