highaltitude.log.20100918

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[04:00] <W0OTM> anyone around?
[04:01] <natrium42> W0OTM, sup?
[04:01] <W0OTM> question, whats UHF signal like in a balloon?
[04:01] <W0OTM> is a crossband repeater work ok?
[04:02] <W0OTM> can someone with an HT work the balloon?
[04:02] <natrium42> usually UHF is used
[04:02] <juxta|console> W0OTM: I'm currently building a crossband 2m & 70cm repeater to fly
[04:03] <natrium42> juxta|console, oh, cool
[04:03] <juxta|console> we flew a 2m simplex repeater a few weeks ago, that worked very well
[04:03] <juxta|console> :)
[04:03] <W0OTM> so UHF reception is ok from 18miles up?
[04:03] <W0OTM> 500mw?
[04:03] <juxta|console> we used 1W, we got contacts over a radius of 700+ km
[04:03] <natrium42> the brits use 10mW
[04:04] <W0OTM> 1W on UHF?
[04:04] <W0OTM> 2m up and 70cm down?
[04:05] <juxta|console> 1W on VHF W0OTM - it was simplex. however, we use UHF telemetry with 25mW of power and we get several hundred km out of that
[04:05] <natrium42> the UKHAS record for 10mW is over 400km IIRC
[04:05] <juxta|console> 560km
[04:05] <juxta|console> ;p
[04:05] <natrium42> :)
[04:05] <W0OTM> ok, so I conclude using UHF in balloons is ok
[04:06] <natrium42> yeah, at at the lower range
[04:07] <natrium42> for higher frequencies you might need directional antennas at both ends
[04:07] <natrium42> which is difficult
[04:08] <juxta|console> UHF (as in ~400mhz) works well, yes :)
[04:09] <juxta|console> natrium42: the simplex repeater is going on a crash diet to get the weight down to perhaps 100 or 200g, plus a DTMF decoder and serial link to the main computer
[04:09] <juxta|console> easy uplink :D
[04:10] <natrium42> cool
[04:10] <natrium42> no more parroting? :)
[04:10] <W0OTM> juxta|console: whats your controler?
[04:14] <juxta|console> natrium42: hm, yeah - it is still the parrot
[04:14] <juxta|console> I call thta a simplex repeater :P
[04:14] <juxta|console> i call a normal talk through repeater (ie crossband) half duplex
[04:14] <juxta|console> maybe I'm wrong, hehe
[04:14] <juxta|console> W0OTM: an atmel AVR
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[05:49] <jcoxon> morning all
[05:49] <juxta|console> hey jcoxon
[05:49] <juxta|console> how's things?
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[05:54] <Darkside> urgh
[05:54] <Darkside> work sucks
[05:54] <DagoRed> I know
[05:54] <Darkside> hows it going juxta|console
[05:55] <DagoRed> Darkside: At least you're not a grad student.
[05:55] <Darkside> hah, i will be next year...
[05:55] <DagoRed> Darkside: What major?
[05:55] <Darkside> elec eng
[05:55] <DagoRed> Nice.
[05:55] <DagoRed> I did my undergrad in EE.
[05:56] <jcoxon> tired :-)
[05:56] <jcoxon> so shouldn't be awake but i am
[05:56] <DagoRed> Darkside: I'm in AerE now for grad school.
[05:56] <jcoxon> AerE?
[05:57] <Darkside> aerospace?
[05:57] <DagoRed> Yes.
[05:58] <DagoRed> And my major professor is pushing me to go for a Ph. D in engineering mechanics.
[05:58] <jcoxon> DagoRed, cool - lots of time left being a student then :-)
[06:00] <Darkside> haha
[06:00] <DagoRed> jcoxon: You have no idea.
[06:00] <Darkside> im loving the embedded systens programming stuff
[06:01] <juxta|console> haven't seen you about jcoxon, how is working going?
[06:01] <juxta|console> work*
[06:01] <jcoxon> DagoRed, i did 6 years at uni
[06:01] <DagoRed> Darkside: Likewise, http://home.engineering.iastate.edu/~static09/Projects-Packet_Modem.html
[06:01] <jcoxon> juxta|console, just done 12 days straight
[06:01] <DagoRed> jcoxon: That's how long it took me to get my undergrad
[06:01] <jcoxon> its taken its toll
[06:01] <jcoxon> DagoRed, fair enough
[06:01] <juxta|console> Darkside: I found what was causing that software to hang when the network was unavailable on upload
[06:02] <jcoxon> no more uni for me though
[06:02] <jcoxon> :-p
[06:02] <juxta|console> jcoxon: ouch - do you get a break now?
[06:02] <jcoxon> just sat/sun
[06:02] <jcoxon> then back on monday
[06:02] <DagoRed> jcoxon: Just keep going with school, make a decision and don't make decisions while in session.
[06:02] <Darkside> DagoRed: my final year project is a hf telemetry system
[06:03] <jcoxon> DagoRed, oh i've qualified now
[06:03] <Darkside> based around an xmega, and an ad9835
[06:03] <jcoxon> but i agree
[06:04] <jcoxon> juxta|console, got those fsa03's soldered on to their breakout board
[06:04] <jcoxon> s
[06:04] <DagoRed> Darkside: My senior design project was to turn a 1.2 GHz satelite dish for radio astronomy into a 1.4 GHz satalite communication system and implement a tracking feature on two microcontrollers that are controlled via ethernet.
[06:05] <DagoRed> http://home.engineering.iastate.edu/~static09/Projects-SeniorDesign.html
[06:05] <juxta|console> nice jcoxon
[06:05] <juxta|console> any word on those NTX2's? ;p
[06:06] <jcoxon> DagoRed, oh are you working on the Iowa State's ZP balloon then?
[06:06] <jcoxon> juxta|console, need to order them
[06:06] <DagoRed> jcoxon: With NV1K, kinda. I just go in the lab and get roped into projects.
[06:07] <jcoxon> hehe
[06:07] <DagoRed> jcoxon: I will be helping out with the packet radio, and I have a very passive role with cysat.
[06:07] <jcoxon> cool
[06:07] <jcoxon> nice
[06:07] <DagoRed> We have a room on IRC. #sscl
[06:07] <DagoRed> We're trying to get a lab manager to come on and field questions.
[06:07] <DagoRed> We may even have a few seminars in the future as well.
[06:07] <jcoxon> have you launched normal balloons? before the ZP?
[06:07] <DagoRed> About 120 of them.
[06:08] <jcoxon> nice
[06:08] <juxta|console> jcoxon: no worries :)
[06:08] <DagoRed> Mostly latex balloons.
[06:08] <jcoxon> i loose track of the US Uni Balloon programs
[06:08] <jcoxon> quite a few going on
[06:08] <DagoRed> Our lab has, I have only launched 2 payloads. Once again, I'm not officially involved with that project.
[06:08] <jcoxon> :-)
[06:09] <DagoRed> jcoxon: We're the leaders, you should wee our new hardware and software we're working on.
[06:09] <jcoxon> the leaders at balloons?
[06:09] <DagoRed> In terms of uni balloon projects, yes.
[06:10] <jcoxon> how about the uni of wyoming?
[06:10] <DagoRed> I only say that becaue every program in the country emails us, mostly about our cut down system.
[06:10] <DagoRed> They have in the past.
[06:10] <jcoxon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcoxon77/3290736414/in/set-72157614028027899/
[06:10] <jcoxon> :-p
[06:11] <DagoRed> what is that for?
[06:11] <jcoxon> that was me with the CNES in france working for my Uni
[06:11] <jcoxon> just showing off
[06:11] <DagoRed> Nice.
[06:11] <DagoRed> We have the FAA ruining our life in the US so the large payloads are difficult.
[06:11] <DagoRed> Have you ever launched a rocket off of one?
[06:12] <jcoxon> i haven't
[06:12] <jcoxon> know a few teams who are working on it
[06:12] <jcoxon> when some truely makes it work it'll be excellent
[06:12] <jcoxon> yeah your FAA is a small challenge
[06:13] <jcoxon> its funny here in the UK our CAA (faa equiv) are a little more relaxed but we have far stricter communication laws
[06:13] <juxta|console> the US FAA is not as restrictive as our governing body is here in Australia
[06:13] <jcoxon> juxta|console, hehe thats true
[06:13] <jcoxon> juxta|console, i'll try and give them a call today
[06:13] <DagoRed> jcoxon: Small challenge is an understatement. Their draconian practices are so bad we can't update them with all the information fast enough because they refuse to use technology developed in the last 20 years.
[06:14] <jcoxon> doubt they'll be open at 7:13 in the morning
[06:14] <juxta|console> hehe, no rush :)
[06:14] <jcoxon> juxta|console, i need to get some
[06:14] <jcoxon> i'm actually going to order quite a few
[06:15] <jcoxon> as its hassle to order them anyway
[06:15] <jcoxon> juxta|console, i'm think we should roll a new binary of dl-fldigi
[06:15] <jcoxon> to get people testing the new GPS feature
[06:16] <DagoRed> jcoxon: we have some strict communication laws here, we play ball by getting our amateur radio license.
[06:17] <juxta|console> DagoRed: in the UK you can't use amateur radio airborne
[06:17] <DagoRed> ... you have got to be kidding.
[06:17] <juxta|console> they're basically limited to ISM bands, and even then they have rules on duty cycle and very low power
[06:17] <jcoxon> DagoRed, we do pretty cool things with 10mW radios
[06:17] <DagoRed> http://www.rsgb.org/ ?
[06:18] <jcoxon> thats whats quite cool about amateur balloons, each team has to adapt to their individual situation
[06:18] <DagoRed> jcoxon: We get our gps telemetry over 100 miles away with 10mw
[06:18] <jcoxon> DagoRed, our record is 566km
[06:18] <jcoxon> 351miles
[06:18] <jcoxon> for clear decoding
[06:18] <DagoRed> jcoxon: Our record is pretty decent as well, but still.
[06:18] <juxta|console> here in Australia we have more lax laws re radio, but our FAA equiv is a nightmare. You can't just go ahead and launch here, no matter what you want to fly - you need clearance for a launch site, and NOTAMs issued for your flights (similar in the UK I believe)
[06:19] <jcoxon> DagoRed, its something we've focused on
[06:19] <DagoRed> jcoxon: Actually... if you really want to have fun, use the pulse train from a gps puck and use WSPR. You'll set some records then and it's legal.
[06:19] <jcoxon> DagoRed, its crossed my mind
[06:20] <jcoxon> it would be very cool
[06:20] <DagoRed> jcoxon: Let us know at my school, it would be sweet to see if we can have a trans atlantic WSPR connection
[06:20] <Darkside> DagoRed: have you implemented wspr on a micro?
[06:20] <DagoRed> Darkside: No, but I want to REALLY badly. We have the background in the lab and I have the DSP background to pull it off.
[06:20] <Darkside> ive been looking at doing that
[06:21] <Darkside> oh?
[06:21] <Darkside> im just using an ad9835
[06:21] <Darkside> you program in the carrier frequency
[06:21] <jcoxon> DagoRed, only thing is that can't transmit on any of the HF bands
[06:21] <jcoxon> as they ain't ISM
[06:21] <DagoRed> Screw that, use a dsPIC 33 or 30. The phy on them are amazing.
[06:21] <Darkside> pff
[06:21] <Darkside> have you seen an ad9835?
[06:22] <Darkside> its a raw carrier generator
[06:22] <DagoRed> jcoxon: So? We can play nice with what ever you guys got. I'm sure we can make something happen.
[06:22] <Darkside> up to about 14mhz
[06:22] <Darkside> sine generator too
[06:22] <DagoRed> very tempting
[06:22] <jcoxon> DagoRed, yeah that would be really fun
[06:22] <Darkside> and can reprogram at about 7500Hz, so you can do 7500 symbols per second
[06:23] <jcoxon> of course could go the other way - we can rx just fine here
[06:23] <DagoRed> jcoxon: Not to mention our lab could use the press and that would get funding from the EE department again which we need desperately.
[06:23] <jcoxon> hehe
[06:23] <Darkside> DagoRed: and its constant phase by way of the DDS
[06:24] <jcoxon> DagoRed, well there might be something you could help us out with at some point
[06:24] <Darkside> only problem is the low output power - 500mVp-p into a 300 ohm load
[06:24] <DagoRed> jcoxon: If I have time... sure... I'm a busy busy person though.
[06:24] Action: DagoRed works mainly with unmanned vehicles and NDE stuff ATM
[06:24] <jcoxon> as we can't use APRS (as we don't use those freqs etc)
[06:25] <jcoxon> we have built our own sort of flexible version
[06:25] <DagoRed> Wait.. APRS can work over a lot of frequencies.
[06:25] <jcoxon> oh sure
[06:25] <jcoxon> but not use the infrastructure
[06:25] <DagoRed> We don't.
[06:26] <jcoxon> well we'll be doing some long duration flights out to sea - therefore won't be in the UK and will be on HF
[06:26] <jcoxon> so could certainly listen out for those
[06:26] <DagoRed> jcoxon: Seriously, look into WSPR. With the pulse train from the GPS puck, you'll get the timing down perfectly. It won't be fast but it will solve your problem.
[06:27] <jcoxon> i've been having a play recently
[06:27] <jcoxon> its very cool
[06:27] <DagoRed> We normally run at 144.875 MHz I think...
[06:27] <jcoxon> though only on my mac
[06:27] <Darkside> DagoRed: wspr is mfsk based, right?
[06:27] <Darkside> i could implement that on my system...
[06:27] <DagoRed> Darkside: I think so, it looked stupidly simple and fun so I've been working harder on finding support than looking at the details.
[06:27] <Darkside> i already have dominoex@working
[06:28] <DagoRed> nice
[06:28] <Darkside> if i can get timing right (hook up a gps) then it can be easily done
[06:28] <Darkside> any idea of the carrier shift for wspr?
[06:29] <Darkside> i know its small - that might be the only problem
[06:29] <Darkside> i have about 0.1hz precision
[06:30] <jcoxon> DagoRed, so the team you work with occasionally are working towards a cubesat
[06:30] <jcoxon> testing on balloons?
[06:30] <jcoxon> really cool
[06:30] <DagoRed> bingo
[06:30] Action: jcoxon is a bit jealous
[06:30] <Darkside> thats awesome
[06:30] <DagoRed> I'm working on UAV stuff.
[06:30] <jcoxon> thats a favourite topic here as well
[06:30] <jcoxon> not just balloons
[06:31] <jcoxon> well dropping uavs from balloons
[06:31] <DagoRed> Ask NV1k about RGS.
[06:31] <DagoRed> Essentially, it's a guidance system for tha payloads of our high altitude balloons.
[06:32] <DagoRed> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjmTYXBLOI8 that is my starting point for our research.
[06:32] <DagoRed> The successor to that project is changing the game of rotary wing UAV's.
[06:32] <DagoRed> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzVnVLEw2qc&feature=related that is completely autonomous without using GPS.
[06:32] <DagoRed> Only an IMU, sonar for altitude, and a single camera.
[06:33] <jcoxon> thats very cool
[06:34] <DagoRed> Thanks.
[06:35] <DagoRed> Like I said, I'm busy. Our lab obviously is a pretty busy place.
[06:35] <jcoxon> yeah sounds it
[06:35] <DagoRed> We even have a mars rover....
[06:35] <jcoxon> hehe
[06:35] <DagoRed> For competitions but still....
[06:35] <jcoxon> :-)
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[06:36] <jcoxon> oops
[06:36] <DagoRed> wb
[06:36] <Darkside> hmm, hopefully i'll get to fly my radian tomorrow...
[06:37] <DagoRed> radian?
[06:37] <Darkside> parkzone radian
[06:37] <Darkside> rc glider
[06:37] <Darkside> 2m wingspan
[06:37] <DagoRed> oh wow, cool
[06:37] <DagoRed> I want to build an attitude stay feature for HABET
[06:38] <Darkside> only got it a few days ago, havent been able to fly it yet
[06:38] <DagoRed> ahh
[06:38] <jcoxon> Darkside, itching to fly it then
[06:38] <Darkside> yep
[06:38] <Darkside> gonna go to a local oval and have a go tomorrow
[06:39] <jcoxon> i could really do with this weekend doing nothing - have to go to see my parents - fathers bday
[06:39] <juxta|console> Darkside: awesome
[06:40] <DagoRed> jcoxon: I haven't seen my parents in over a year. Stupid school.
[06:40] <jcoxon> eek
[06:40] <jcoxon> call them, your mother worries :-)
[06:41] <jcoxon> now that i'm working i do get more time off
[06:42] <juxta|console> jcoxon: you get paid too now, right? ;p
[06:42] <jcoxon> yeah
[06:42] <jcoxon> getting paid on friday
[06:44] <jcoxon> it certainly helps :-)
[06:44] <jcoxon> juxta|console, how many ntx2 modules do you want?
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[06:44] <DagoRed> jcoxon: I can't wait, next week I get my first RA paycheck
[06:45] <juxta|console> jcoxon: 2 I reckon
[06:45] <juxta|console> jcoxon: can you get them in the 25mW version?
[06:45] <jcoxon> not sure
[06:45] <jcoxon> i can try
[06:45] <jcoxon> need to speak on the phone anyway
[06:45] <juxta|console> alrighty, thanks :)
[06:45] <jcoxon> if you do you want 10mW ones?
[06:46] <juxta|console> hmm?
[06:46] <juxta|console> 25mW in preference, failing that though 10mW is fine :)
[06:46] <jcoxon> is the distributor out in Oz?
[06:46] <juxta|console> they only carry 434.650
[06:46] <jcoxon> oh right
[06:47] <DagoRed> We have our main APRS stuff work at 446.785
[06:47] <Darkside> juxta|console going to the symposium tomorrow?
[06:47] <Darkside> i might not now, too far to go
[06:48] <juxta|console> I may not be able to make it, no :(
[06:48] <jcoxon> DagoRed, we run on our telem systems on 434.075 - keeps them away from the repeaters etc
[06:48] <Darkside> yeah... getting to belair us a bit annoying for me
[06:49] <DagoRed> jcoxon: Same for us.
[06:49] <juxta|console> LIPD band on 70cm here happens to be right in the middle of the 70cm repeater input range - hurrah!
[06:58] <DagoRed> jcoxon: For your flights over the atlantic, we have a payload design for you. Fiberglass reinforced with marine foam for a high altitude balloon.
[07:05] <jcoxon> any concept pics?
[07:08] <DagoRed> Yeah, let me look for the full report :)
[07:08] <DagoRed> With buld process
[07:10] <DagoRed> http://home.engineering.iastate.edu/~static09/Files/Idiot_Proof_Build_Process.pdf
[07:10] <DagoRed> jcoxon: That's for the fiber glass part
[07:12] <jcoxon> clver use of the florist foam blocks to make the mold
[07:12] <jcoxon> clever*
[07:12] Action: DagoRed nods
[07:12] <DagoRed> I'm having troubles finding the last part of the report
[07:12] Action: DagoRed looks harder
[07:14] <DagoRed> oh yeah... that's why I can't find it
[07:14] <DagoRed> one of my group members plagarised their work from wikipedia and we can't distribute now.....
[07:14] <jcoxon> oops
[07:14] <DagoRed> jcoxon: Mind taking notes for the parts afterwards?
[07:18] <DagoRed> Are you there?
[07:18] <jcoxon> yeah sorry - was multitasking
[07:18] <jcoxon> ummm i have to disappear in 5 mins
[07:18] <DagoRed> Nevermind then, that's pushing it.
[07:19] <jcoxon> another day
[07:19] <DagoRed> Shoot me an email and I'll see if I can find our final report.
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[07:24] <jcoxon> oh wb8elk is launching today
[07:24] <DagoRed> Nice!
[07:24] <DagoRed> We're still waiting to do our high altitude record.
[07:24] <jcoxon> :-)
[07:24] <jcoxon> what size balloon?
[07:24] <jcoxon> 3kg?
[07:25] <DagoRed> 6kg
[07:25] <DagoRed> latex
[07:25] <juxta|console> whoa
[07:25] <jcoxon> wow
[07:25] <DagoRed> Mission time: 6 hours
[07:25] <juxta|console> where do you source those DagoRed?
[07:25] <DagoRed> juxta: Don't know. I may be mistaken as well.
[07:26] <DagoRed> HABET is not my main project so.. I just get involved a very little bit.
[07:26] <juxta|console> hehe
[07:26] <DagoRed> Either way, we have steam installed on the computers in the lab.
[07:26] <DagoRed> We're playing games, eating pizza, and potentially grilling during this mission.
[07:27] <DagoRed> Our payload wait for our tracking system comes out to be less than a pound.
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[07:28] <DagoRed> Greatest discovery for thermal insulation and RF shielding, Mylar emergency blankets. Cost, about $3.00 US for a pack of two.
[07:29] <jcoxon> makes it look cool as well
[07:30] <DagoRed> Before we used duct tape. Like the metal duct tape. The mylar blanket works better with a sheet resistance of 6 ohms per foot.
[07:39] <jcoxon> DagoRed, good to chat - good luck with the launch
[07:39] <jcoxon> cya
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[14:52] <W0OTM> grrr
[14:52] <W0OTM> why doesn't the predictor work......
[14:52] <W0OTM> Server says: downloaded 0% of GFS Files
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> Also broken here
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> Actually - it gets to 40%
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[15:04] <DanielRichman> W0OTM: are you using the predictor on cuspaceflight's site?
[15:04] <W0OTM> yes
[15:05] <W0OTM> http://habhub.org/predict/
[15:05] <DanielRichman> seems to get stuck there too at 0%
[15:05] <W0OTM> who runs it?
[15:05] <DanielRichman> habhub != CUSF (although CUSF wrote the predictor code)
[15:06] <DanielRichman> I can have a look into it but I suspect the GFS servers (out of our control) are slow. Give me a second
[15:06] <W0OTM> thx
[15:06] <DanielRichman> W0OTM: http://nessie.habhub.org/ runs it
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[15:06] <DanielRichman> jon and adam are AFK atm so I'll try but can't promise
[15:07] <DanielRichman> yes, looks like tonnes of predict.py are just sitting around stuck
[15:08] <DanielRichman> however the gfs data server looks like it's functioning fine...
[15:13] <DanielRichman> W0OTM: try now
[15:13] <W0OTM> ok
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[15:15] <W0OTM> same issue
[15:15] <W0OTM> :(
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[15:18] <DanielRichman> W0OTM: you requested Sat Sep 25 14:00:00 2010
[15:19] <DanielRichman> does it work for say, wedenesday this week?
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[15:19] <W0OTM> lemy check
[15:19] <W0OTM> no
[15:20] <W0OTM> JSON timeout
[15:20] <W0OTM> still getting Server says: downloaded 0% of GFS Files
[15:20] <Randomskk> okay I pulled myself out of bed >_> for some reason my irssi email alerts are not working
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[15:32] <DanielRichman> W0OTM: ok it would *appear* that NOMADS data servers (the ones we get our GFS data from) are just asleep today. Hopefully they'll come back in a bit; I'm sorry that it doesn't work
[15:33] <W0OTM> DanielRichman: Thanks for looking into it. I will keep trying, if not try tomorrow
[15:33] <Randomskk> I wonder if we can do something about caching it when nomads goes down
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[16:11] <griffonbot> I'm back
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[16:41] <DagoRed> really
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[16:53] -:#highaltitude- [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
[17:00] <W0OTM> payload pics for iHAB-2 http://www.w0otm.com/iHAB/iHAB-2/
[17:03] <jcoxon> W0OTM, cool
[17:04] <DagoRed> Nice
[17:04] <DagoRed> jcoxon: I sent that email last night.
[17:05] <jcoxon> yeah thanks
[17:08] <DagoRed> No problem, I hope it helps.
[17:09] <DagoRed> Worst comes to worse, it makes a great cooler that is boyant and has gps tracking....
[17:09] <jcoxon> hehe
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[18:08] <rjharrison> Hi all
[18:08] <Randomskk> yo
[18:08] <rjharrison> This was from earlier in the year
[18:08] <rjharrison> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSAy8egf4oA&feature=fvst
[18:08] <rjharrison> Hi jcoxon
[18:08] <rjharrison> Do we know where rocketboy is
[18:11] <rjharrison> Hey Randomskk
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[18:17] <jcoxon> bbl
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[18:18] Nick change: SpikeUK_ -> SpikeUK
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[18:33] <fsphil> ah, WB8ELK has launched
[18:34] <Randomskk> sweet, up it goes
[18:34] <Randomskk> and the predictor is working and all
[18:34] <Randomskk> having the predictor integrated into the tracker is so awesome
[18:34] <fsphil> nice little loop before landing, and nice predicted landing spot
[18:34] <fsphil> though lots of trees
[18:35] <fsphil> yea who's idea was it to integrate the two? that was a moment of genius
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> It is indeed.
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[18:38] <fsphil> nicely put together video
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[18:43] <Laurenceb> hi
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> hi
[18:44] Action: Laurenceb is doing usbdongle layout
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> The expensive gyros from AD are quite awesome.
[18:44] <Laurenceb> still wondering about ant config
[18:44] <Laurenceb> quite expensive too :P
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> .54 degrees/sqrt(hr) random walk
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[18:44] <Laurenceb> tho i havent checked for a while
[18:44] <SpeedEvil> But it's in principle what's likely to be around in - say 10 years for $20
[18:45] <Laurenceb> before the itg-3200 and lsm303dlh came out their spi IMU module was slightly attractive
[18:45] <Laurenceb> $400 tho
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> $900 the ones I was looking at
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> but yes.
[18:45] <Laurenceb> that sort of accuracy is way beyond what you need for plane stuff
[18:45] <Laurenceb> when you have gps as well
[18:46] <Laurenceb> there probably some cool space/rocketry application with those crazy expensive gyros
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> It would be quite handy for indoor nav
[18:46] <Laurenceb> im still trying to get my head around antenna design/configuration
[18:47] <Laurenceb> i think its possible to have a single ant on the plane
[18:47] <Laurenceb> and two on the ground, and cover all attitude cofigurations
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> Oh wow.
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> That's nice.
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
[18:47] <Laurenceb> thing is if the ant is in the x,y plane it need to project circularly polarized radiation along +z
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> I'm pondering really hard opening my phone and adding a gyro and compass
[18:48] <Laurenceb> and similar in -z
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> Surely you have the hairy ball problem?
[18:48] <Laurenceb> then linear polarization along x and y
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> That is - the radiation will always be null along one axis of the antenna
[18:48] <Laurenceb> hmm
[18:49] <Laurenceb> im imagining a dipole along x and y
[18:49] <Laurenceb> and driving them out of phase by 90degrees
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> oops.
[18:49] <Laurenceb> surely someone has solved the equations for this...
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[18:49] <SpeedEvil> Make sure you have the right google selected before typing in hairy ball
[18:49] <Laurenceb> hah
[18:49] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> Is this for instantaneous C
[18:50] <SpeedEvil> C&C - or telemetry?
[18:50] <Laurenceb> telemetery
[18:51] <SpeedEvil> So it's not that time-critical.
[18:51] <Laurenceb> i dont thinl its the hairy ball problem - as you have cicularly polarized radiation off z axis
[18:52] <Laurenceb> also theres phase lags between various points on the sphere
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> Don't think of the polarisation - it's a red herring
[18:52] <Laurenceb> yes
[18:52] <SpeedEvil> Think about the absolute magnitude of the radiation in different directions.
[18:52] <Laurenceb> but the phase lags mean at any one instant there may be nulls
[18:53] <Laurenceb> but averaged over one cycle you get radiation everywhere
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> umm
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> you mean actively steering the beam?
[18:53] <Laurenceb> basically im just considering two ideal dipoles
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> ah
[18:53] <Laurenceb> one along x and one along y
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[18:53] <Laurenceb> then drive 90degrees out of phase
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> The radiation from the two dipoles is the superposed radiation from each dipole.
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> hangon.
[18:54] <Laurenceb> yes
[18:54] Action: SpeedEvil confuses himself.
[18:54] <Laurenceb> itll be circularly polarized along z axis
[18:54] <SpeedEvil> Umm
[18:54] <Laurenceb> and linear along x and y
[18:55] <Laurenceb> and linear everywhere in the xy plane i think
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> I think I may for some reason have been earlier analysing it as if the null on a dipole transmitter is a circle along the axis. It's not though - it's at the neds
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> ends
[18:55] <SpeedEvil> Sorry.
[18:56] <Laurenceb> you get radiation all over the unit sphere, its just of reduced intensity as you approach the xy plane
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> So two dipoles at 90 degrees will not create a radiation patten with nulls.
[18:56] <Laurenceb> i think so...
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> Argh.
[18:56] <Laurenceb> if they arre driven with a phase lag
[18:56] <SpeedEvil> I hate stupid brainos like this. I knew that.
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> Hang on.
[18:57] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[18:57] <Laurenceb> of course two dipoles at 90degrees with 90degrees phase lag is pretty hard to make - you need something more practical thats equivalent
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I don't think you can neglect polarisation here.
[18:57] <Laurenceb> - hard to make small
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> It's only 35cm
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> Which is not huge
[18:58] <Laurenceb> is if its a plane
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> A couple across the wing, a couple fore and aft
[18:58] <Laurenceb> yes
[18:58] <Laurenceb> and some coax to get the lag.. and a splitter
[18:58] <Laurenceb> a think there must be a clever spirally thing that does the same job
[18:59] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helical_antenna
[19:00] <SpeedEvil> Wound 'round' the wing.
[19:00] <SpeedEvil> I wonder what happens if you make the outline non circular
[19:03] <SpeedEvil> http://www.antenna-theory.com/antennas/travelling/helix.php has some pretty sharp nulls
[19:08] <Laurenceb> as theres so many turns
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> I suppose you really sort-of-want the degenerate case with one turn
[19:08] <SpeedEvil> half a turn?
[19:15] <Laurenceb> could use a patch ant
[19:15] <Laurenceb> but huge :(
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> Several patches, and beamforming.
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> You know you want to!
[19:16] <Randomskk> I always wanted to play with a pcb with like, a lot of really high frequency antennas
[19:16] <Randomskk> my radio license covers me for a /huge/ swath of microwave territory
[19:16] <Randomskk> literally, loads and loads and loads of frequencies
[19:16] <Randomskk> and at 60ghz antennas are pretty tiny
[19:17] <Randomskk> but the theory is way beyond me at the moment, as is the transmitter design for that kind of frequency
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> Also spendy
[19:17] <Randomskk> yea. pcb design starts needing special materials and all that junk
[19:18] <Randomskk> you could do it for 5ghz maybe and make a 802.11n locator
[19:18] <SpeedEvil> 'wifi' gets interesting when you can do phased-array-antennas on small objects
[19:18] <Randomskk> there was a paper a while back on doing very clever radio source location using multi antenna arrays
[19:18] <Laurenceb> need some ant sim software
[19:18] <Randomskk> I think you generate a null and move it around until it totally blocks the incoming or something, in essence
[19:18] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: yea. that's why all this really high frequency stuff seems fun
[19:19] <Randomskk> ooh, my kindle arrived today, talking of small objects with wifi
[19:19] <Randomskk> it's like a bit of the future. the screen is unreal
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[19:19] <SpeedEvil> I want a few megawatts at 500GHz or so.
[19:19] <Laurenceb> http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/pics/cirpol-1.jpg
[19:19] <Randomskk> a few megawatts of transmitted power?
[19:19] <SpeedEvil> To play with stuff like remotely powered aeroplanes.
[19:19] <Randomskk> sadly the license still only allows for 400W at any freq
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[19:20] <Randomskk> you'd need a nov, or a test license or such
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> I need to go to sleep for a bit.
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> Wave.
[19:20] <Randomskk> seeya
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> And sigh - missed iridium flare again
[19:25] <Laurenceb> javascript:void(0);
[19:25] <Laurenceb> doh
[19:25] <Laurenceb> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=4352030
[19:25] <Laurenceb> looks nice
[19:40] <fsphil> wb8elk's at 31km
[19:40] <fsphil> well, not him personally I hope
[19:41] <fsphil> and down it comes
[19:44] <Randomskk> bloody heck
[19:44] <Randomskk> quick descent
[19:44] <Randomskk> ah
[19:44] <Randomskk> too quick >_>
[19:44] <fsphil> lol
[19:45] <Randomskk> there's some weird noise there
[19:45] <fsphil> the predictor seems to be way off
[19:45] <Randomskk> I think it's confused by the ascent/descent caused by noise
[19:45] <Randomskk> it was dead on track up until burst
[19:46] <Hiena> Now, i'm a white man. Or at least on my hands. Both of then bathed with concentrated hydrogen-peroxide. Burns like the hell...
[19:50] <Randomskk> fsphil: actually you know what
[19:50] <Randomskk> the predictor was pretty good
[19:50] <Randomskk> it did in fact do a sudden about-turn
[19:51] <fsphil> ahh look at that
[19:51] <Randomskk> I wonder where that noise is coming from
[19:51] <Randomskk> it's repeatedly dropping to like -700 or something
[19:51] <Randomskk> yet that's getting through
[19:51] <Randomskk> flight computer issue I guess
[19:52] <fsphil> there's a few strings with no altitude at all
[19:52] <fsphil> possible the gps is loosing the lock
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[20:01] <fsphil> guess it's down now .. lets hope it missed that forest
[20:02] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/CLQlR.png <-rf layout done
[20:02] <Randomskk> looks pretty sweet
[20:03] <Laurenceb> itll be fun to solder
[20:03] <Laurenceb> prob hot air gun job
[20:04] <fsphil> ooh they're fun things
[20:06] <Laurenceb> im so tempted to do a version 2 dactyl board rather than populate the version1
[20:06] <Randomskk> that always happens
[20:07] <Laurenceb> want to add jtag pads, dual ants with UFL connectors, and ublox6 with a UFL
[20:07] <Randomskk> by the time the pcbs arrive you have thought of at least one or two bugs and three or four different/better/new ways to do it
[20:07] <Laurenceb> you can get sarantel geohelix ants and UFL pigtailed cables very cheap
[20:07] <Randomskk> which is why I had four revisions of the motor controller before I even got a motor spinning, and now it'l be a fifth before I get it working, at least
[20:07] <Randomskk> (to be fair, one of those four never got manufactured)
[20:07] <Laurenceb> heh
[20:08] Action: Laurenceb suddenly like UFL
[20:08] <Laurenceb> stick with SMA for the ground side tho
[20:09] <Laurenceb> geohelix on a short lenght of cable gives you better mounting flexibility and hardly any more mass/size
[20:09] <Laurenceb> and also you get to use ublox6
[20:09] <Laurenceb> as if 5 wasnt awesome enough
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[20:47] <spacefelix> Curiosity, but since we send balloons to high altitudes, is there such a way to do the reverse and send a camera deep under the sea?
[20:47] <spacefelix> You know, like a bathysphere, but have a lead weight on a squib that is cut to ascend after descent.
[20:48] <Randomskk> making things watertight and high pressure proof tends to be easier than keeping them in the air and making them withstand low pressure
[20:48] <fsphil> the trick is getting access to a sufficiently deep part of the ocean
[20:48] <Randomskk> that's no problem
[20:48] <Randomskk> use a balloon
[20:48] <Randomskk> !
[20:48] <fsphil> hmm
[20:49] <Randomskk> cutdown when over the mariana trench
[20:49] <spacefelix> Well, I mean it's not 'Challenger Deep', but you know to explore perhaps the local lake or some other curiosity.
[20:49] <spacefelix> Heh.
[20:49] <spacefelix> But then how do we come back up? :P
[20:50] <fsphil> aqua-balloon
[20:50] Action: spacefelix starts a whole new channel and club called #negativealtitude dedicated to undersea exploration. ;)
[20:50] <spacefelix> LOL
[20:50] <spacefelix> Ha, that's how we got bent, we undersea launched a weather balloon.
[20:51] <fsphil> I've wanted to make a little sub ever since seaquest was on telly ;-)
[20:52] <fsphil> something that drops to the bottom, takes a few pictures, floats back up and raises a flag for recovery
[20:52] <Randomskk> so a balloon drifts out, cutsdown when gps says over something very deep, drops the payload which is pressurised, goes down to some extreme depth, cuts the lead weight so ascends to the surface where it inflates a second balloon and drifts back to land?
[20:52] <fsphil> you'd need a big balloon to carry the weight
[20:52] <DanielRichman> and some freak weather conditions
[20:53] <Randomskk> only if you wanted to land where you took off
[20:53] <Randomskk> you would need a massive balloon
[20:53] <fsphil> well if it stays submerged for a few days the weather could shift
[20:53] <DanielRichman> you could just
[20:53] <fsphil> it's in water though, give it a small motor and gps -- it can get itself back to shore
[20:53] Action: DanielRichman starts aspell
[20:53] <DanielRichman> build an autonomous sub
[20:54] <Randomskk> 'build' is quite a tricky word
[20:54] <Randomskk> fsphil: hehe perfect
[20:54] <DanielRichman> both plans involve building
[20:54] <Randomskk> I meant more the spelling :P
[20:54] <Randomskk> in fact you don't even need a lead weight. drop the boat, which stays on the surface and uses a radio to talk back to the balloon overhead
[20:54] <fsphil> also on the water you could probably use HF frequencies
[20:54] <DanielRichman> also; are you going to get a notam for when it's going to inflate the second balloon?
[20:55] <Randomskk> intl waters
[20:55] <fsphil> salt water and latex might not mix
[20:55] <Hiena> http://xkcd.com/585/
[20:55] <Randomskk> I was thinking that. I have that on a t-shirt :D
[20:56] <Randomskk> well it says Science and has the scientists running away from a balloon'd shark anyway
[20:56] <fsphil> lol
[20:56] <spacefelix> LOL.
[20:56] <spacefelix> Hey, look what we recovered!
[20:57] <fsphil> no laser beams, meh
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[21:17] <timbobel> hi ll
[21:17] <Dadi> hi, I am testing my payload with dl-fldigi and the checksum is valid. The data comes up at http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/view.php but nothing on the map at spacenear.us... is there some delay?
[21:19] <Randomskk> uhm
[21:19] <Randomskk> hmm
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[21:21] Nick change: spacefelix -> hyperfelix
[21:21] <jonsowman> Dadi: is your payload voyeurv?
[21:21] <Dadi> yes
[21:22] <jonsowman> 2 secs
[21:22] <jonsowman> there seem to be spaces in the telemetry
[21:23] <jonsowman> voyeurv,126,21:19:27,+64 09.0077,-021 59.1222,00020*60
[21:23] <Randomskk> I think that's dd mm.mmmm or something unusual
[21:23] <jonsowman> i think that's fine, but remove the space
[21:23] <jonsowman> Dadi:
[21:24] <Randomskk> xml may need updating on robertharrison
[21:24] <jonsowman> that would be iceland?
[21:24] <jonsowman> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=64,-21&sll=51.320906,-0.296625&sspn=0.009468,0.027874&ie=UTF8&ll=64.020513,-20.387878&spn=0.849441,3.56781&z=9
[21:24] <Dadi> yes
[21:25] <jonsowman> corrent?
[21:25] <jonsowman> *correct?
[21:25] <Randomskk> Dadi [~dadi@212-30-203-188.static.simnet.is]
[21:25] <Randomskk> fun place to launch from
[21:25] <Dadi> yes
[21:25] <jonsowman> nice!
[21:25] <jonsowman> anyway, Dadi, remove the spaces from the telemetry string
[21:25] Nick change: hyperfelix -> higherenergystat
[21:25] <Dadi> Ok, i'll try that. Thanks for the help
[21:25] Nick change: higherenergystat -> hi-e_state_felix
[21:25] <jonsowman> no problems, let us know if it doesn't work
[21:25] <Randomskk> jonsowman: I think the xml on robertharrison has "dd mm.mmmm" in its gps thing
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[21:26] <jonsowman> Randomskk: it does but I've changed it
[21:27] <Randomskk> cool
[21:27] <jonsowman> test.php gives "validation failed" on the two fields with spaces
[21:28] <Dadi> the format of the string is dd mm.mmmm .... What should it be?
[21:28] <jonsowman> ddmm.mmmm
[21:28] <Dadi> ddmm.mmmm?
[21:28] <Dadi> ok, thanks
[21:28] <jonsowman> yep
[21:28] <DanielRichman> I thought it was meant to be dd.ddddd
[21:28] <DanielRichman> d
[21:28] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: listener can cope with either
[21:28] <DanielRichman> gah, I went to all that effort
[21:28] Nick change: hi-e_state_felix -> hypofelix
[21:28] <Randomskk> (which will make the parser way fun)
[21:28] <jonsowman> I prefer decimal degrees too, but degrees decimal minutes works too
[21:29] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: it's going to be an option in the xml
[21:29] <DanielRichman> or yaml
[21:29] <jonsowman> yaml \o/
[21:29] <DanielRichman> autodetect is just asking for it
[21:29] <jonsowman> hehe
[21:29] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: or json >_>
[21:29] <DanielRichman> <,<
[21:29] <Randomskk> autodetect could work :P
[21:29] <Randomskk> but I think we just assume decimal degrees
[21:29] <DanielRichman> yeah but it would encourage sloppiness
[21:29] <Randomskk> unless specified
[21:29] <DanielRichman> yup
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[22:03] <Dadi> I tried removing the spaces
[22:03] <Dadi> there is still nothing coming up on spacenear.us...
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[22:06] <jonsowman> Dadi: hang on
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[22:09] <jonsowman> something odd is going on here
[22:10] <jonsowman> give me a min
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[22:11] Nick change: DanielRi1hman -> DanielRichman
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[22:11] <Dadi> I see the server always rejects my checksum if there is a letter in it
[22:11] <Dadi> guess I have to change it to caps
[22:12] <jonsowman> it shouldn't matter
[22:12] <Randomskk> fcvo shouldn't
[22:12] <jonsowman> anyway so the listener is posting to the tracker
[22:12] <jonsowman> Randomskk: indeed
[22:12] <Randomskk> I woulnd't trust that without checking the php source >_>
[22:13] <jonsowman> heh
[22:13] <jonsowman> point
[22:13] <DanielRichman> yes. it uses php_curl
[22:13] <Randomskk> I mean, the hex case sensitivity
[22:14] <Randomskk> I'm sure it's posting
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[22:18] <jonsowman> right
[22:18] <jonsowman> I think we're there
[22:18] <jonsowman> Dadi:
[22:18] <Dadi> oh yes
[22:18] <Dadi> I see it
[22:18] <Dadi> great!
[22:18] <Dadi> thanks
[22:19] <jonsowman> okay the fields are dddmm.mm
[22:19] <jonsowman> ie. make you sure you always display a + or -
[22:19] <Dadi> yes ok
[22:20] <jonsowman> should work now :)
[22:20] <Dadi> what about the checksums with letters... do I have to change it to upper case?
[22:21] <jonsowman> yes
[22:21] <Dadi> ok
[22:21] <jonsowman> sorry, that's stupid
[22:21] <jonsowman> I don't know why it doesn't accept lowercase
[22:21] <Dadi> thanks alot for the help
[22:21] <jonsowman> * is at position 49 length 52
[22:21] <jonsowman> v : 118 o : 111 y : 121 e : 101 u : 117 r : 114 v : 118 , : 44 1 : 49 1 : 49 9 : 57 , : 44 2 : 50 2 : 50 : : 58 1 : 49 9 : 57 : : 58 2 : 50 5 : 53 , : 44 + : 43 6 : 54 4 : 52 0 : 48 9 : 57 . : 46 0 : 48 0 : 48 6 : 54 3 : 51 , : 44 - : 45 0 : 48 2 : 50 1 : 49 5 : 53 9 : 57 . : 46 1 : 49 2 : 50 3 : 51 2 : 50 , : 44 0 : 48 0 : 48 0 : 48 1 : 49 0 : 48 * : 42 6 : 54 a : 97 Checksum found 6a
[22:21] <jonsowman> Calculated checksum= 6A
[22:21] <jonsowman> Checksum invalid
[22:21] <jonsowman> FAILED - Checksum Invalid
[22:21] Action: jonsowman rolls eyes
[22:21] <jonsowman> Dadi: no problem - just make it uppercase and it'll work
[22:21] <Randomskk> lol because ==
[22:22] <jonsowman> yea
[22:22] <Randomskk> should int()
[22:22] <jonsowman> I can't be bothered to patch it, sorry
[22:22] <Randomskk> yay for php's magical types
[22:22] <Randomskk> comparing a string with a number in it is just the same as comparing the number, right?
[22:22] <Randomskk> right?
[22:22] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[22:22] <Randomskk> oh php.
[22:22] <jonsowman> haha
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[22:23] <Randomskk> (python will do the same thing, of course)
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[22:36] <W0OTM> payload pics for iHAB-2 http://www.w0otm.com/iHAB/iHAB-2/
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[22:46] <jcoxon> evening all
[22:47] <fsphil> evenin'
[22:47] <jcoxon> hey
[22:48] <jcoxon> i see a icelandic payload is on the map
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[22:51] <jcoxon> anyone got any info on the flight?
[22:52] <Randomskk> it is uh
[22:52] <Randomskk> Dadi and thorirg's flight
[22:52] <Randomskk> also doing /lastlog is to get the last people joining with .is in the domain was an awful idea
[22:53] <jonsowman> haha
[22:53] <jcoxon> i'm excited about an iceland launch
[22:53] <Dadi> me too :)
[22:53] <jcoxon> im going to iceland on 1st Oct
[22:54] <jonsowman> jcoxon: nice, what for?
[22:54] <jcoxon> just to visit for the weekend with my gf
[22:54] <jonsowman> don't say groceries
[22:54] <jcoxon> finally managed to get leave
[22:54] <jonsowman> sounds good :)
[22:54] <jcoxon> Dadi, so when is the flight?
[22:55] <Dadi> plan is tomorrow....
[22:55] <Randomskk> iceland's lovely
[22:55] <Randomskk> check out like, the waterfalls
[22:55] <Dadi> everything is pretty much ready
[22:55] <jcoxon> Dadi, would you like me to put on real time prediction for hte flight
[22:56] <jcoxon> might be useful as you terrain isn't perhaps the easiest :-)
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[22:56] <Dadi> oh yes, that would be great
[22:56] <Randomskk> and uh, glaciers? and some geysers? also rivers with 'rock flower' in are quite pretty
[22:56] <Randomskk> also this http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/420375813/
[22:56] <jcoxon> Dadi, have you got a few people to receive the data?
[22:57] <Dadi> no only us
[22:57] <Dadi> we'll be following in a car
[22:57] <jcoxon> okay
[22:57] <jcoxon> so might lose internet connection?
[22:57] <Dadi> yes
[22:57] <jcoxon> what time are you launching?
[22:58] <Dadi> about 13:00
[22:58] <Dadi> GMT
[22:58] <jcoxon> okay
[22:58] <jcoxon> cool
[22:58] <jcoxon> look forward to it
[23:00] <Dadi> so with the real time prediction, will a track show up on the spacenear.us map?
[23:00] <Randomskk> yea
[23:00] <Randomskk> every position update
[23:00] <Randomskk> it's great
[23:00] <Dadi> nice
[23:01] <Dadi> it will show up automatically once we start sending data to the server?
[23:01] <jonsowman> yep
[23:01] <Dadi> great
[23:01] <Dadi> that will be useful
[23:01] <jonsowman> :)
[23:02] <jcoxon> getting the data now in preparation
[23:02] <jcoxon> so shoult work
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[23:06] <Dadi> how precise has experience shown the CUSF landing predictor to be?
[23:06] <jcoxon> pretty good
[23:06] <jcoxon> especially at this time range
[23:06] <jonsowman> within 10-15km most of the time
[23:06] <jonsowman> often better
[23:07] <fsphil> I thought it was off a bit earlier with WB8ELK's launch when it predicted the path to be the opposite of that the balloon was going
[23:07] <Randomskk> gets better nearer the launch. better yet when it's in the air
[23:07] <jonsowman> fsphil: oh?
[23:07] <fsphil> then balloon then turned around a few minutes later :)
[23:07] <jonsowman> ah :)
[23:07] <fsphil> I was very impressed
[23:07] <Randomskk> it's amazing how sudden turns can be in the jetstream
[23:08] Action: Randomskk is listening to Jetstream by Doves on Kingdom of Rust right now, in fact
[23:08] <jonsowman> that's a truly excellent album
[23:08] <jcoxon> Dadi, it might be worth recruiting another listener if you could
[23:09] <jcoxon> to act as a base station
[23:12] <Dadi> well, they would have to live in the middle of the country and not very many people live there... so I doubt finding one with a receiver
[23:12] <fsphil> might be too short notice, but you could maybe fire of an email to a local amateur radio club
[23:13] <Dadi> In the capital the line of sight will be blocked
[23:13] <Dadi> at lower altitudes
[23:13] <Randomskk> but at higher altitudes....
[23:13] <fsphil> any data will help refine the prediction
[23:13] <jcoxon> Dadi, also means we can follow it :-p
[23:15] <Dadi> yes, We tried to find a radio amateur to lend us a receiver and we looked for a while but no one was willing
[23:15] <Dadi> so I doubt we will find one to track it by tomorrow :)
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[23:15] <jcoxon> Dadi, send an email to your local club
[23:15] <jcoxon> or email southgate arc news
[23:16] <jcoxon> the more people tracking the better
[23:16] <jcoxon> http://www.southgatearc.org/
[23:16] <Dadi> we sent an email to them earlier about with questions.... never got a reply
[23:16] <jcoxon> how are you doing your radio transmitter?
[23:17] <Dadi> it's just a radiometrix ntx2 with a whip antenna
[23:17] <jcoxon> oh nice
[23:18] <jcoxon> did you use a previous project as an example or develop it yourself?
[23:18] <Dadi> we kind of used some projects from around the internet
[23:18] <jcoxon> cool
[23:18] <Dadi> f.e. robert harrisons
[23:19] <jcoxon> Dadi, -> rjharrison
[23:19] <Dadi> and then we added a few things of our own
[23:19] <Dadi> for example we have a geiger counter
[23:19] <jcoxon> amazing
[23:19] <Dadi> to measure cosmic radiation
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[23:20] <jonsowman> Dadi: flew a GM tube on my last flight - let me know how yours goes :)
[23:20] <Dadi> nice
[23:20] <Randomskk> did you blog pretty graphs of that?
[23:20] <Dadi> did you see a big difference in radiation?
[23:20] <Randomskk> in retrospect I should have done the stats with with the nicer google dials
[23:20] <jonsowman> http://www.hexoc.com/pages/apex/apex-ii/data.php
[23:21] <Randomskk> sweet
[23:21] <jonsowman> bottom graph on first screenshot
[23:21] <Randomskk> in other words a massive difference
[23:21] <Randomskk> that sadly cut off at altitude
[23:21] <Randomskk> I wonder why
[23:21] <jonsowman> yes we never really discovered the cause
[23:21] <Randomskk> turns out there's no radiation once you leave that part of the atmosphere, was the best suggestion I came up with
[23:21] <jonsowman> hehe
[23:21] <Randomskk> it literally dropped to /zero/
[23:22] <spacefelix> :P
[23:22] <Randomskk> at about 20km exactly
[23:22] <Randomskk> presumably this means that the earth creates all the radiation and it has a maximum travel distance of 20km before dying
[23:22] <Randomskk> :o science
[23:22] <fsphil> some component in the sensor might not appreciate the low pressure
[23:22] <DanielRichman> or the ird broke.
[23:22] <jonsowman> fsphil: I think that's likely
[23:22] <Randomskk> :P
[23:22] <Randomskk> the second IRD broke before launch
[23:22] <fsphil> science -- it works ... sorta
[23:22] <jonsowman> we actually had two GM tubes, but one was damaged during payload assembly and never worked at all
[23:23] <DanielRichman> interesting that it comes back
[23:23] <Dadi> well most of the radiation comes from protons colliding with the atmosphere
[23:23] <DanielRichman> was the plan to have them pointing different directions?
[23:23] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: indeed
[23:23] <jonsowman> one vertical, one horizontal
[23:23] <spacefelix> Get radiation in different directions?
[23:23] <spacefelix> Ah, cool.
[23:23] <jonsowman> not that (we think) it makes any difference
[23:23] <Dadi> so i would expect it to go up and then down again
[23:23] <Randomskk> but it turns out there was no radiation horizontally
[23:24] <Randomskk> further evidence for the theory that it is all emitted by the earth! (!)
[23:24] <jonsowman> Randomskk: heh, funny that
[23:24] <spacefelix> Hey, question. Does this mean that people who work on the airliners or in airplanes are more likely to get cancer due to higher radiation exposure?
[23:24] <Randomskk> yes
[23:24] <Randomskk> or fly lots
[23:24] <jonsowman> yes, marginally
[23:24] <spacefelix> Yay!
[23:24] <spacefelix> :P
[23:24] <Dadi> the forecast is cloudy tomorrow, is it better to launch in clear weather?
[23:24] <DanielRichman> it means you get more radiation in you by sitting on a flight than using a full body scanner (iirc)
[23:24] <spacefelix> So if I become a pilot, I should have cancer insurance plenty. :P
[23:24] <Randomskk> we call that "the NHS"
[23:25] <DanielRichman> zing.
[23:25] <jonsowman> Dadi: I don't see why you shouldn't launch in cloud
[23:25] <jonsowman> Randomskk: haha
[23:25] <fsphil> well, depends on what the cloud is made of
[23:25] <jonsowman> ...
[23:25] <Dadi> just to get some pictures of the ground I guess :P
[23:25] <spacefelix> A cloud of balloon sharks!
[23:25] <spacefelix> Ahhhh!
[23:25] <jonsowman> oh god
[23:26] <jonsowman> okay if the clouds are made of balloon sharks, don't launch
[23:26] <spacefelix> They are in a feeding frenzy eating all the starlings!
[23:26] <spacefelix> Call the FAA! Ground all flights! High sharkstrike and loss of limb risk!
[23:26] <fsphil> would make skydiving more interesting
[23:26] <spacefelix> Bring a speargun!
[23:27] <spacefelix> Bonus points for the more sharks you hit.
[23:27] <fsphil> "And Simon wins .. he didn't hit any sharks, but all the other competitors have been eaten. What a result."
[23:28] <fsphil> And you thought bird poo was bad
[23:28] <spacefelix> Dadi: If I am interpreting the FAA, and correspondingly the CAA rules, if you have a balloon and payload under a certain mass and mass per surface area, you can fly whereever you want.
[23:28] <spacefelix> This is due to birdstrike ratings of aircraft.
[23:28] <spacefelix> The only recommendation is that you warn local airmen by radio on a CTAF that you are launching.
[23:28] <Randomskk> we have to get NOTAM
[23:29] <Randomskk> but this is cool, actually
[23:29] <spacefelix> Mmm.
[23:29] <Randomskk> because at any moment, no matter what I'm doing
[23:29] <Randomskk> I might get interrupted by dudes from the RAF
[23:29] <Randomskk> going "hi, is it okay if we launch some jet fighters or are you maybe going to let go of a big balloon"
[23:29] <spacefelix> Oh man.
[23:29] <Randomskk> "sorry I would love to talk to you but the RAF is on the phone"
[23:29] <jonsowman> awesome
[23:29] <spacefelix> If I ever saw my balloon get jetplane'd, I would be pissed.
[23:30] <spacefelix> Then I would run like hell before anyone found out.
[23:30] <Randomskk> "sorry body, I would love to sleep more, but REDACTED helicopters is phoning again"
[23:30] <Randomskk> "every bloody day"
[23:30] <Randomskk> "at 7am"
[23:30] <spacefelix> lol
[23:30] <jonsowman> hehe
[23:33] <Dadi> thanks for the help guys
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[23:34] <Dadi> hope we'll have internet tomorrow
[23:34] <jonsowman> yep, good luck and keep us updated if you can
[23:34] <jonsowman> :D
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[23:34] <Dadi> will do
[23:34] <Dadi> bye
[23:34] <jonsowman> see you
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[23:35] <Dently> what would be a good GPS for a Micro Trak 300?
[23:37] <fsphil> they should get some spectacular shots if the weather clears up for them
[23:38] <Randomskk> iceland from air would be amazing
[23:38] <jonsowman> yeah hope so
[23:39] <jcoxon> Dently, most gps modules output standard NMEA format
[23:39] <jcoxon> but you'd want one that worked above 18km (most don't)
[23:40] <Dently> well I have a Motorola Oncore but can't program it
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[23:46] <spacefelix> You guys can see to iceland with a balloon flight from the U.K.? Cool.
[23:46] <Randomskk> nah, they are launching from iceland
[23:46] <spacefelix> By the way, how do you guys deal with near-sea launches? Or do you just let the payload land in the sea and have it properly marinized?
[23:46] <spacefelix> Ah cool.
[23:46] <Randomskk> we use the predictor
[23:46] <Randomskk> and launch when it says it won't get wet
[23:46] <spacefelix> Mmm.
[23:46] <Randomskk> sometimes we let them go to the sea
[23:47] <Randomskk> davy jones' locker and all that. it is talk like a pirate day
[23:47] <spacefelix> So those are the disposables?
[23:47] <spacefelix> Yarrr!!!!
[23:47] <spacefelix> We sacrifice the loot to Davey Jones.
[23:47] <spacefelix> Me heraty.
[23:47] <Randomskk> that's more like it
[23:48] <Randomskk> yea, disposable usually. sometimes they land in mainland europe
[23:48] <spacefelix> Mmm.
[23:49] <spacefelix> Would you think a water launch and landing would be easier since there are no trees to get stuck in and you just have to sail to the payload?
[23:49] <Randomskk> maybe, though they tend to go a long way and sailing that far could be hard
[23:49] <Randomskk> driving is easier
[23:49] <Randomskk> also making waterproof floating payloads can be tricky
[23:50] <spacefelix> Mmm.
[23:50] <jcoxon> night
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[00:00] --- Sun Sep 19 2010