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[07:29] <m1x10> designing pcbs rule !
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[08:31] <timbobel> earth calling jonsowman
[08:32] <m1x10> hi timbobel
[08:33] <m1x10> hows going?
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[10:10] <timbobel> hi mixio
[10:10] <timbobel> fine, busy at the university
[10:10] <timbobel> working on five projects consecutively
[10:27] <m1x10> brb
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[10:28] <timbobel> hey em.. do atmega328's run on 3v3?
[10:28] <timbobel> i'd like a 3v3 system..
[10:29] <Randomskk> yes, they do
[10:31] <timbobel> which
[10:31] <timbobel> or how
[10:31] <timbobel> i do have some 328's with ard bootloaders from spark
[10:31] <Randomskk> they just do.
[10:32] <timbobel> you just have to feed it with 3v3?
[10:32] <Randomskk> yea.
[10:32] <timbobel> and then all the outputs are 3v3, is that how it works?
[10:32] <Randomskk> yea
[10:33] <timbobel> friggin sweet
[10:33] <timbobel> so we were talking yesterday right
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[10:34] <timbobel> okay, so, if i feed it with 12v, you said, first regulate down to 7 volt, then the arduino will take it down to 5v. So now, i am making my own arduino-ish thing, so i have to put in my own reg. so would you say, first 12V>reg>9V>reg>3v3 ?
[10:34] <timbobel> (since 7v regulators are kinda scarce
[10:35] <Randomskk> uh
[10:35] <Randomskk> switch down to 5V for a 3v3 reg.
[10:35] <timbobel> so 12>5>3v3?
[10:35] <Randomskk> switch 12 down to 5, then regulate 5 down to 3v3.
[10:35] <Randomskk> would work nicely.
[10:36] <timbobel> got it
[10:36] <timbobel> pretty dynamic things those avrs
[10:36] <Randomskk> they're great.
[10:36] <Randomskk> the P series ones will run on anything from, if I recall, 1.8V to 5.5V
[10:37] <Randomskk> bear in mind maximum clock speed drops with operating voltage. at 3v3 I believe it's 16MHz.
[10:37] <timbobel> "1.8V to 5V operating voltage"
[10:37] <timbobel> you mean 8hz?
[10:37] <Randomskk> no
[10:37] <Randomskk> 8hz would be quite slow
[10:37] <timbobel> why are arduino pro mini's then 8mhz on 3v3 and 16mhz on 5v?
[10:38] <Randomskk> who knows. they might not be P series parts, or maybe 8MHz is as fast as you can go on 3v3, or maybe that was just a design choice
[10:38] <Randomskk> datasheet will tell you
[10:40] <juxta_> Randomskk, from memory 16mhz operation requires about 3.7v to be in spec on the P chips
[10:41] <Randomskk> aww.
[10:41] <Randomskk> you can probably get away with 12MHz then
[10:41] <juxta_> yeah
[10:41] <timbobel> yep i just fount that
[10:41] <juxta_> there's a graph
[10:41] <timbobel> "All of my board run at 3.3V / 12MHz"
[10:41] <Randomskk> indeed
[10:41] <timbobel> so then i cant use the arduino bootloader?
[10:41] <Randomskk> you can still use the arduino bootloader.
[10:41] <timbobel> so then i can't us a 16mhz chrystal?
[10:41] <Randomskk> correct
[10:41] <timbobel> Crap
[10:42] <juxta_> you'll need to alter some of the timing values in the arduino cores if you alter the clock speed to something nonstandard
[10:42] <timbobel> bah
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[10:43] <juxta_> if it's any consolation, I run my stuff at 3.3v & 8mhz, I've not yet run into speed issues ;p
[10:43] <timbobel> so i will just regulate the xbee that i use down to 3v3, that sound easier
[10:43] <Randomskk> eh. using 3v3 system bus is great
[10:43] <Randomskk> get an arduino pro or such. the bootloader supports 8mhz
[10:44] <timbobel> i kow i have one
[10:44] <juxta_> run the whole lot at 3.3v - just use an 8mhz crystal, that's fine
[10:44] <timbobel> but i need to make something myself that incorporates some stuff, an xbee and 1~2 relay
[10:44] Nick change: TraumaPwny -> TraumaPony
[10:45] <timbobel> but can i still use the standard bootloader that's on it with the arduino sketch program
[10:45] <timbobel> (i do have a 3v3 ftdi)
[10:46] <timbobel> i've got these: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9217 there arent 328P/s right? whats the diff
[10:47] <juxta_> the fuses on that chip are set for 16mhz
[10:47] <juxta_> if you get an AVR programmer you'll be able to reprogram it for 8mhz operation
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[10:47] <juxta_> the arduino IDE can do that for you, you'll just need the physical programmer
[10:47] <timbobel> do not have
[10:48] <timbobel> where to get
[10:48] <juxta_> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9825
[10:48] <timbobel> i need to make almost 20 systems so i guess that would be cheaper than buying bootloaded-ready stuff from spark
[10:48] <juxta_> beware though, if you run 64bit windows you'll be pulling your hair out getting the drivers for that board to work
[10:48] <timbobel> i dont have
[10:49] <timbobel> have osx 10.6 too
[10:49] <Randomskk> worth getting an AVR programmer
[10:49] <juxta_> pretty sure that sparkfun programmer only has drivers for windows - maybe get the real thing, and AVRISP mkII
[10:49] <juxta_> an*
[10:49] <timbobel> great i just ordered sparkfun stuff this morning :'(
[10:50] <Randomskk> I think it works under avrdude on linux fine.
[10:50] <Randomskk> I like adafruit's USBtinyISP
[10:50] <juxta_> yeah - the sparkfun one is essentially a usbtinyisp
[10:50] <juxta_> (thats the one I have)
[10:51] <Randomskk> works on linux no problem
[10:51] <juxta_> excellent
[10:51] <timbobel> okay so
[10:52] <timbobel> i dont need more than the usbtinyisp, correct
[10:52] <juxta_> shoudlnt do
[10:52] <Randomskk> yea. that's enough to program an avr
[10:52] <Randomskk> you can then upload the bootloader yourself, or do what I do and just use it to program without a bootloader
[10:52] <timbobel> shipping fees would be half the productprice
[10:53] <timbobel> so, would i need different resistor & capacitor values now?
[10:53] <juxta_> no
[10:54] <Laurenceb> hi all
[10:55] <Randomskk> yo
[10:56] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: im going for FT232R with fet based logic level shifter to a JST serial connect, two sma connectors, and 5V switched output
[10:56] <Laurenceb> for the stick
[10:56] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geqip_0Vjec
[10:58] <Laurenceb> wow
[10:58] <Randomskk> do want
[10:58] <Laurenceb> im guessing the cameras are for position determination
[10:58] <Randomskk> wrt stick, sounds sensible
[10:59] <Randomskk> yes, it's an IR flooded room and they're using mocap stuff to determine position
[10:59] <Randomskk> and all the computation is done server-side, too
[10:59] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:59] <Randomskk> but like
[10:59] <Randomskk> so
[10:59] <Randomskk> it's still amazing
[10:59] <Laurenceb> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=437 <- im thinking of something like that
[11:00] <Randomskk> it can fly through hoops :|
[11:00] <Laurenceb> maybe msd... but itd probbe weaker
[11:00] <Laurenceb> *smd
[11:00] <Randomskk> why not just make it part of the PCB?
[11:00] <Laurenceb> unreliable?
[11:00] <Randomskk> really? I've never had any problems with them
[11:00] <Laurenceb> cant see it fitting very firmly
[11:01] <Laurenceb> its got to be able t take two thick coax leads with sma connectors on the other end
[11:03] <Laurenceb> alsoim temptedto be lazy and use eagle
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geqip_0Vjec
[11:03] <SpeedEvil> awesome
[11:05] <Randomskk> -1 old :P
[11:05] <Randomskk> it is fantastic though
[11:16] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/lumberg/2410-07/plug-usb-type-a/dp/1308875?crosssellid=1308875&crosssell=true&in_merch=true&
[11:17] <Laurenceb> ^ looks perfect
[11:22] <Randomskk> yup
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[11:35] <timbobel> where does CTS go on my atmega from my ftdi
[11:39] <m1x10> nowhere i think
[11:40] <m1x10> no, Im no sure.
[11:40] <m1x10> I thought something else.
[11:43] <Randomskk> http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/Arduino-Pro-schematic.pdf
[11:43] <Randomskk> cts->gnd
[11:45] <timbobel> then what is blk
[11:45] <Randomskk> black. references the FTDI cable's wire colouring.
[11:45] <Randomskk> you can probably guess grn too
[11:45] <timbobel> reset/
[11:46] <timbobel> i dont ahve a ftdi wire
[11:46] <Randomskk> no. green.
[11:46] <timbobel> black is ground right
[11:46] <timbobel> dude i dont have a wire
[11:46] <Randomskk> they don't make any difference, I mean.
[11:46] <Randomskk> look at that schematic
[11:46] <Randomskk> they just happen to be the colours they picked
[11:47] <Randomskk> it's just a bit of text on the silkscreen to make getting the cable the right way around easier, if you happen to be using a cable
[11:48] <timbobel> so where does it go on the atmega
[11:48] <Randomskk> http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/Arduino-Pro-schematic.pdf
[11:48] <Randomskk> that's the schematic for sparkfun's arduino pro, which includes the 6 pin FTDI header
[11:52] <m1x10> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPJSlI4XXhE
[11:52] <m1x10> ping Randomskk
[11:53] <Randomskk> hi
[11:53] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Or just use a cable
[11:53] <m1x10> Randomskk, I put the copper connected to GND but now I get many DRC errors
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I could see that puggint it not right next to the computer might be good for noise
[11:54] <m1x10> most errors are on the pads
[11:54] <Randomskk> m1x10: your PCB software should do the ground fill such that it specifically does not get errors
[11:54] <Randomskk> it may be that your PCB software is retarded. it may also be that you are adding a gigantic rectangle of copper, rather than an actual copper pour.
[11:54] <Randomskk> without having used your PCB program, I can't tell either way.
[11:55] <m1x10> lol, u hate this software.
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[11:57] <Randomskk> no, I really don't care about it either way
[11:57] <Randomskk> I don't and haven't used it, and never plan to
[11:57] <Randomskk> if it's a good PCB editor, it will have the capability to do a copper pour which automatically leaves enough clearance for your DRC settings
[11:58] <Randomskk> but I can't tell you how to do that
[11:58] <m1x10> it has an option for clearance, its set to 0.01mm
[11:58] <m1x10> What other software do u suggest to me?
[11:58] <Randomskk> that is a tiny, tiny clearance
[11:59] <m1x10> (except eagle)
[11:59] <timbobel> thnaks a lot random, i got my own arduino working now for a total of $7
[11:59] <Randomskk> eagle is good. kicad also works quite well. other software is expensive.
[11:59] <timbobel> just use the free eagle
[12:00] <m1x10> clearence value?
[12:01] <Randomskk> depends on your board house. I'd usually put at least 12mil for a copper pour.
[12:01] <Randomskk> which is 0.3mm.
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[12:03] <m1x10> hm
[12:03] <m1x10> i set it to 0.20mm
[12:03] <m1x10> and no errors
[12:03] <m1x10> and I see a nice gap between copper and the traces
[12:03] <Randomskk> yes, but the maximum actual clearance depends on your PCB manufacturing house, which you may or may not have set on your DRC check
[12:04] <Randomskk> in addition, with copper fills there is so much of the PCB at that clearance that running it right to spec makes it a lot more likely that there will be a small etch failure somewhere and your ground plane ends up touching a trace
[12:04] <m1x10> should I contact the makers asking them for their clearence value? this is what u say?
[12:05] <Randomskk> it will usually be on the website. using 8mil is a safe bet. some places are better.
[12:05] <m1x10> its this
[12:05] <m1x10> http://www.seeedstudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Opensourcepcb
[12:06] <Randomskk> seeed are 6/6
[12:06] <m1x10> what do u mean 6/6?
[12:06] <Randomskk> 6 mil clearance and 6 mil minimum trace width
[12:06] <m1x10> oh
[12:06] <timbobel> i'd go for 8/8 though
[12:07] <m1x10> nice i seee now
[12:07] <m1x10> what is mil by the way? mm ?
[12:07] <timbobel> milli inches right
[12:07] <m1x10> ah inches
[12:07] <timbobel> something like that
[12:07] <Randomskk> thousandths of an inch.
[12:07] <m1x10> need some conversion
[12:08] <Randomskk> and yes, I'd go for 8/8 too. and use at least 12 on the copper pour.
[12:08] <timbobel> just forget the metric system when pcb'ing.
[12:08] <Randomskk> timbobel: these days you can also have some success doing it entirely metric
[12:08] <timbobel> most stuff is 100 mil spacing right
[12:08] <Randomskk> modern SMD packages are metric
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[12:08] <Randomskk> PTH stuff is all imperial, but almost all my designs are entirely metric now
[12:08] <timbobel> yeah, and they should be!
[12:08] <russss> #an image of the CUSF teddy bears is at the bottom of this page... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_suit
[12:08] <timbobel> friggin measuring in FEET, come ON
[12:08] <m1x10> 6mil=0.1524mm
[12:08] <Randomskk> haha awesome
[12:08] <m1x10> oh you said 12
[12:09] <timbobel> russs: superh!!! hahahaha it does really fit there, nice
[12:09] <Randomskk> shame the suits were not very thermally insulating. those bears got quite cold
[12:09] <Randomskk> perhaps a small heater inside would have been a good idea
[12:10] <m1x10> lol
[12:10] <Randomskk> bbl.
[12:19] <m1x10> http://imagebin.org/114333
[12:19] <m1x10> I did 8/8 and this is how my traces became
[12:19] <m1x10> 8mil=0.2032mm
[12:20] <m1x10> before was line:http://imagebin.org/114318
[12:22] <timbobel> random, btw, the 16mhz and 3v3 works
[12:22] <timbobel> but the delays seem shorter
[12:24] <timbobel> actually no its the same
[12:32] <timbobel> whooh i have my call
[12:32] <timbobel> PD4TA
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[12:44] <timbobel> i dont know crap about oscillators, so is this any good to make 8mhz 3v3 arduino?
[12:44] <timbobel> http://nl.farnell.com/iqd-frequency-products/lf-a140k/crystal-8mhz/dp/9712844
[12:51] <SpeedEvil> If the arduino is designed for a crystal, then yes
[12:53] <timbobel> there are chrystals with internal capacitors
[12:53] <timbobel> ?
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> Sort-of.
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> Some ceramic resonantors have internal caps
[12:57] <timbobel> crap cant find 3v3 relays
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> What are you trying to make
[12:59] <timbobel> 3v3 system with xbee and relays
[12:59] <timbobel> though xbee needs 3v3
[12:59] <timbobel> relays, usually 5..
[13:00] <timbobel> i need to make many so its cheaper, and more fun, to make it myself.
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> well - if you're making many, xbee may be the wrong plan.
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> How many is many?
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> And what're you trying to do.
[13:01] <timbobel> 10~20..
[13:01] <timbobel> just a meshsystem
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> though xbee is easier than many other RF solutions
[13:02] <timbobel> right thats why i chose xbee
[13:02] <timbobel> and its flexible, so anyway.
[13:02] <SpeedEvil> What ar eyou wanting relays fro - maybe possible to switch to transistors
[13:02] <timbobel> theyve got 12v powered cathode tubes attached
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[13:03] <SpeedEvil> So what - 12V 1a?
[13:03] <timbobel> they run on 650 Volts, would be better if i could switch that, but eh, yeah.
[13:03] <timbobel> yeah half that i think
[13:03] <timbobel> ~3watts
[13:04] <SpeedEvil> 650v?
[13:04] <SpeedEvil> you don't want to switch the hot side.
[13:04] <SpeedEvil> that gets messy
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[13:04] <Laurenceb> hi
[13:04] <timbobel> i do want to, its easier, but i shouldnt
[13:04] <SpeedEvil> Do you have 12V available?
[13:05] <timbobel> the thing is that the converter has got two exits for 2 tubes: f.e. a green one and a red one. so if i could switch the hot side i could use 1 converter
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> Because then you just use a 12V relay, with a open collector driver
[13:05] <timbobel> but i will just take 2 converters with 1 tube each
[13:05] <timbobel> a what
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> a NPN transistor
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> with the emitter hooked to ground, the collector to the relay, and the base through a resistor to the arduino
[13:06] <timbobel> never heared
[13:06] <timbobel> wtf
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> I strongly recommend getting a copy of http://www.amazon.com/Art-Electronics-Paul-Horowitz/dp/0521370957
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> And reading at least the first third of the first 6 chapters.
[13:06] <timbobel> nice price, wtf!
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> This is a nice easy introduction to electronics - and is the basic content of most 'introducing electronics' books.
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> A library may have it.
[13:07] <timbobel> yeah well i have a fair knowledge but almost no applied knowledge
[13:07] <timbobel> im not one for the libraries
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> It sounds like you could really do with starting over from the basics - or at least a refresher - for which the above would be great.
[13:08] <timbobel> so right i will just take a 5v relay
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> ##electronics also has an ebook in the topic
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> it's not great though
[13:08] <timbobel> i have too many books i already have to read so maybe next vacation
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> It's probably quicker to read than try to ask questions peicemeal.
[13:09] <timbobel> i really wish i had the time =)
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> The first bits of the first few chapters give you good rules of thumb.
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[13:21] <timbobel> so right id be going for the arduino 5v version, nice and easy.
[14:01] <Laurenceb> interesting -my usb dongle is 18.2mm wide, and two sma connectors side by side is only 18.5
[14:01] <Laurenceb> - cheap usb flash drive dongle
[14:02] <rharrison> SpeedEvil, A new edition is out soon ish
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> well.......
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> A new edition has been due out within the year since at least 5 years ago.
[14:17] <rharrison> I spoke with paul about 2 months ago and it is on it's way
[14:17] <rharrison> Jan 2011
[14:17] <rharrison> apparently SpeedEvil
[14:17] <griffonbot> @nearsys: Drove with SPOT to work this morning. With unit on dash, two messages got to the satellite. Cool. Now a near space test. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/24667526586]
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> Someone else I know pinged him last year, and was given Jan 2010 IIRC
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> I'm not saying it's not going to come out - just that I think I'll wait on recommending it till at least I can preorder it.
[14:20] <rharrison> SpeedEvil, true it's jus that it is quite pricey and one should know that it's a little dated towards the backend.
[14:21] <rharrison> uC's FET's etc
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> rharrison: yeah
[14:21] <timbobel> "Paul Verhage" how dutch can a name get
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> rharrison: JFETs have basically gone away, and a hell of a lot more is in micros.
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> It would be awesome to be able to start from 3E (or even 2E) and use it as initial content in a somehow-moderated wiki.
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> Though that can dilute it.
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> One of the good points is that it's concise - and explains stuff usually adequately. If you reread, you can usually grasp it
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[14:30] <Laurenceb> http://www.taoglas.com/images/product_images/original_images/FXP240.07.0100A%20%20433MHz%20ISM%20Band%20Antenna%20120310.pdf
[14:31] <Laurenceb> do want
[14:31] <Laurenceb> 1.5 grams wow
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[14:36] <timbobel> sweet antenna
[14:37] <timbobel> price?
[14:38] <Laurenceb> $12
[14:38] <Laurenceb> perfect for gluing into the surface of a wing
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[15:01] <timbobel> indeed
[15:02] <timbobel> afraid you need a good los with the 10mw though
[15:04] <Darkside> oh yeah
[15:04] <Darkside> i got a parkzone radian today
[15:04] <Darkside> it's currently hanging from my rooms roof
[15:04] <Darkside> ceiling*
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[15:16] <m1x10> some nice view right now: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/isslivestream.asx
[15:16] <Laurenceb> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=931-1086-ND
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[15:17] <Laurenceb> i was thinking a flying wing with two fo those...
[15:17] <Laurenceb> like the thing on hackaday
[15:18] <SpeedEvil> A third would be nice
[15:19] <SpeedEvil> But if you're willing to avoid the axis of evil, then ...
[15:19] <Laurenceb> heh
[15:19] <Laurenceb> yeah i dont get these so called guarenteed reception dual ant receivers
[15:20] <Laurenceb> if you have dual ants onthe ground as well it helps
[15:20] <SpeedEvil> It's usually guaranteed, as long as you don't look at the small print
[15:20] <Laurenceb> but in real life i think the reflections of the ground will mean two polarizations from the ground isnt as useful
[15:21] <Laurenceb> unless you use somethink like a yagi, or mount the ants on a long pole
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> If the 'null' is a biaxial 20 degree cone, then it's only ~5% of the total orientations
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> which isn't bad
[15:21] <Laurenceb> still - that alps flight guy did fine wtih dual on the wing and single on the ground
[15:21] <SpeedEvil> yeah - if you're not approaching the range liit, things gret way better
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> range limit
[15:22] <Laurenceb> i was goping to say why not dual on the ground and single on the uav... but i think its due to ground reflections
[15:22] <Laurenceb> vertical whip on the ground is best
[15:22] <Laurenceb> and dual on the plane
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> Or if you've got a vertical dipole on the plane, and tend to fly horizontal
[15:22] <SpeedEvil> Then that works OK too
[15:22] <Laurenceb> yes, the simpkle way
[15:22] <Darkside> i was thinking of sticking a hacked up UHF repeater on my radian
[15:22] <Laurenceb> works most of the time,but with the extreme manovers he was doing
[15:23] <Darkside> constructed from 2 cheap UHF handhelds
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[15:43] <jshriver> Are there light battery powered VHF/UHF repeaters? Everyone I've ever seen have looked like a refrigerator.
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[15:47] <Darkside> jshriver: i've hacked one up before from 2 cheap UHF handhelds
[15:48] <Darkside> the handheld had a very useful RX light, which i used to trigger the other handhelds PTT with a relay
[15:48] <Darkside> there weren't even any problems with interference between the TX and RX radio
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[15:50] <jshriver> nice
[15:50] <Darkside> was only half a watt tho
[15:51] <jshriver> had thought it would be fun to attach on to a balloon that's tethered, as a quick way to gain some altitude. Then again easier/lighter probably just to have a light feed line and put the antennae itself up in the air and feed it to the ground.
[15:51] <jshriver> still cool
[15:52] <Darkside> not if the feed line is too long
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[15:52] <Darkside> and light feed line would mean higher loss
[15:52] <Darkside> but i have thought of setting up a HF vertical dipole off a tethered balloon
[15:53] <jshriver> hrm, didnt think about loss, was a bit more concerned about interference if the shielding isn't very thick or solid
[15:54] <Darkside> anyway, nn - 1:30am here
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[16:24] <jshriver> rest well
[16:46] <juxta_> jshriver, I flew a VHF repeater recently
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[17:36] <jshriver> juxta_: cool
[17:37] <juxta_> range was great :)
[17:40] <jshriver> heh
[17:41] <jshriver> hrm not sure how to work my question :)
[17:41] <jshriver> how does frequency relate to distance and signal strength? best way I can think to put it
[17:42] <jshriver> assuming no obstacles
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[17:43] <jshriver> perhaps a weird question.
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> It doesn't.
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> Neglecting stuff.
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> Un
[17:47] <SpeedEvil> fortunatrely, you can't.
[17:47] <jshriver> read where 2m might go as far as 100 miles, er 160km
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> Everything from the background 'noise' at the frequency - both man-made and natural - to the energy of the photons and the quantum energy.
[17:48] <jshriver> so made me think why, if you are high enough and had direct line of sight why not go 10x that
[17:48] <SpeedEvil> We've gone 555km on 10mW@433MHz
[17:49] <jshriver> ok, so even if there aren't trees/buildings/mountains etc the air, natural radiation from the solar system and terrestrial affects it. intersting
[17:49] <jshriver> nice SpeedEvil
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[17:50] <jshriver> wb
[17:50] <SpeedEvil> At low frequencies (lots under 100MHz) - there is also bouncing off the ionosphere - meaning a signal - or interference - can gor ound th earth
[17:52] <jshriver> yeah, I neglected that (never worked HF). How does frequency matter in terms of "bounce"
[17:52] <jshriver> like why doesnt 2m or 440 hop like HF does
[17:53] <jshriver> I really need to read over my tech book again, or get one for general.
[17:53] <SpeedEvil> The ionosphere does not reflect frequencies thart exceed the Maximum Usable Frequency
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> This depends on the time of day, solar weather, and even the direction
[17:54] <fsphil> I suspect that atmospheric conditions had a part in the 555km range at 70cm
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_usable_frequency
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> Nope.
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> I doubt it.
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> It's just the normal clear air and line of sight
[17:55] <SpeedEvil> Though agreed, heavy rain may reduce teh signal level a bit.
[17:55] <jshriver> a friend mentioned we're at the bottom of the sun cycle but going back up
[17:56] <fsphil> the last few flights I've had trouble decoding telemetry. though that could be more to do with the antenna on the payload than the atmosphere
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> hmm
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[18:09] <fsphil> I'll know better when icarus or alien fly again
[18:22] <fsphil> man I wish we could use HF on balloons, my wspr signal was just heard in australia :)
[18:25] <jshriver> wicked
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[18:26] <Laurenceb> hi
[18:26] Action: Laurenceb is being really lazy and using eagle for usb dongle
[18:26] <Laurenceb> i have all the parts already made so its just super easy
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[18:31] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:31] <jcoxon> fsphil, did you get wspr working in the end?
[18:32] <fsphil> funny enough running it now jcoxon
[18:32] <fsphil> just got heard in australia on 40m
[18:32] <jcoxon> how did you get over the crashing
[18:32] <fsphil> running windows version with wine
[18:32] <jcoxon> oh right
[18:33] <jcoxon> hehe
[18:33] <jcoxon> i'll set it up then
[18:33] <fsphil> cheated :)
[18:34] <timbobel> i got my call today btw
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[18:39] <Hiena> ' evening!
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[18:53] <fsphil> nice timbobel, what did you get?
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[19:44] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/a1YQQ.png <- main part of the dongle done
[19:44] <Laurenceb> needs RF now
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[19:45] <SpeedEvil> Is there a good reason for the input ptc?
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> Will it ever protect?
[19:46] <Randomskk> you never know what stupid crap could happen. someone might short the 5v and gnd outpus
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> umm - why the FETs?
[19:47] <Laurenceb> yes, it has 500ma 5v output
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> rotators?
[19:47] <Laurenceb> level shifting
[19:47] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[19:47] <Laurenceb> so nothing gets fried if you plug in/power up in a weird order
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[19:49] <Laurenceb> http://www.skyworksinc.com/uploads/documents/200027E.pdf
[19:49] <Laurenceb> using that for the dual ant switch
[19:52] Action: Laurenceb cant think of anything but a flying wing with dual taoglas flexi antenna
[19:52] <Laurenceb> would be so cool
[19:53] <Laurenceb> need a v2.0 dactyl board with dual UFL connectors
[19:53] <SpeedEvil> I want to do my fapping flying wing.
[19:53] <SpeedEvil> Flapping
[19:56] <Laurenceb> lmao
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> A comparatively thick flying wing that flaps entirely by internal weight transfer.
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> Though a longer strroke would be more sane, and probably work better
[20:13] <Laurenceb> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=931-1086-ND <- that
[20:14] <Laurenceb> its pretty much perfect
[20:14] <Laurenceb> bbl
[20:22] <m1x10> gnite people
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[20:47] <timbobel> what does the signal part of "Signal relay" say about the relay
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[20:55] <Randomskk> it's probably low power
[20:56] <timbobel> 3 volt relays, sign. availability: none
[20:56] <timbobel> *sigh
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[21:12] <Hiena> Well, i never thought, my aerodynamic researches will ends me at the sewing machine...
[21:12] <Randomskk> surprising how often that happens
[21:13] <timbobel> :)
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[21:22] <The-Compiler> hi there :)
[21:25] <Upu> evening
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[21:28] <timbobel> hi
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[21:37] Action: The-Compiler is thinking about doing his own high altitude balloon project :)
[21:39] <Upu> you're in the right place then
[21:39] <Upu> UK based ?
[21:41] <The-Compiler> Switzerland
[21:41] <Upu> ah ok not sure what the regulations are over there
[21:41] <Upu> but try http://ukhas.org.uk/ and http://www.habhub.org/ should get you started
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[21:43] <The-Compiler> me neither, and I can't find anything, so I ended up mailing "Bazl" (federal office for civil aviation) but didn't get a reply. However I found another project of some amateur radio guys whose ballon also flied in switzerland, so I guess they shoul dknow
[21:44] <Upu> Yeah also check what you can transmit with
[21:44] <Upu> over here in the UK we are limited to 10mW 434Mhz transmitters
[21:45] <Upu> I say limited
[21:45] <Upu> it doesn't seem to limit anyone :)
[21:45] <The-Compiler> I was thinking about an XBee-PRO 868 -> http://www.digi.com/products/wireless/point-multipoint/xbee-pro-868.jsp#overview
[21:46] <Randomskk> that's unlikely to work exceptionally well
[21:46] <The-Compiler> why so?
[21:47] <Randomskk> as a transmitter it would be okay, but the receiver won't be sensitive enough to pick up the signal at long range
[21:47] <Randomskk> basically they are poor receivers
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[21:48] <The-Compiler> Randomskk: hmm, what would you suggest then?
[21:48] <Randomskk> typically to receive, an amateur radio receiver is best. they are both very sensitive, readily tunable to account for frequency drift, and the output can be decoded by a computer, allowing you use more noise resistant protocols
[21:49] <Randomskk> the yaesu ft817 is popular although there are cheaper options.
[21:49] <Randomskk> for the transmitter, we typically use radometrix 434mhz modules such as the NTX2
[21:49] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:radio_modules?s=ntx2
[21:49] <Upu> right night all
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[21:50] <The-Compiler> well I think I'd need a licence for that (which I don't have)
[21:50] <Randomskk> you don't need a license to use amateur radio kit to receive
[21:53] <The-Compiler> and I think I also can send at 434mhz
[21:54] <Randomskk> 434mhz 10mw is license excempt throughout the EU
[21:55] <fsphil> I believe the 25mw version is also allowable in some parts of the EU
[21:57] <The-Compiler> well I guess 10mw wouldn't be enough, would they?
[21:57] <Randomskk> we get 500km or so on 10mW
[21:57] <Randomskk> so it depends on what you need for 'enough'
[21:59] <The-Compiler> 500 km is enough indeed. :D
[21:59] <fsphil> definitely :)
[21:59] <fsphil> 25mw would probably only be useful if you where sending a lot more data
[22:00] <The-Compiler> well I was thinking about sending small (e.g. 640x480) live images down all few minutes
[22:00] <Randomskk> I'd try to get a standard kind of GPS telemetry working first
[22:00] <Randomskk> sending images is a lot harder than it might at first appear
[22:01] <Randomskk> you get about 300 baud reliably, using RTTY
[22:01] <Randomskk> which isn't very fast
[22:01] <fsphil> takes about 3/4 minutes to send a 320x240 image
[22:02] <Randomskk> does it still lose the entire image if you have an error?
[22:02] <The-Compiler> http://www.davidankers.com/?p=11 <- hmm, this guy used xbee's and it looks like it worked fine for him :D
[22:02] <fsphil> the new version won't.. there'll just be a gap in the image where there are lost packets
[22:02] <Randomskk> fsphil: nice
[22:04] <Randomskk> interesting
[22:05] <Randomskk> worth verifying you are allowed to use 900MHz in the EU. it's certainly an option that apparently has worked.
[22:06] <The-Compiler> I think I can't use 900 MHz here, only 868 MHz
[22:06] <fsphil> 100mw output .. with that you could just a migh higher baud rate
[22:06] <fsphil> much
[22:06] <Randomskk> fsphil: more free space path loss though
[22:07] <fsphil> true
[22:07] <fsphil> two-way .. lost packets can be signalled and re-transmitted
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[22:11] <fsphil> they don't mention what baud rate they where using
[22:11] <fsphil> but it seems to be a nice device if it's allowed
[22:13] <The-Compiler> well I'll go to sleep now, thanks for your help so far, and talk to you later! :)
[22:13] <fsphil> night
[22:15] <fsphil> needs sleep myself, night guys!
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[23:18] <JetForMe> Hi all. Is the landing predictor having troubles? It gets to 10% then never finishes for me.
[23:19] <Randomskk> in the debug window, what UUID does it say?
[23:19] <Randomskk> (might also be in your URL, a long stream of alphanumeric characters)
[23:23] <Randomskk> it appears to be working very slowly. if you change the parameters very slightly it might work properly.
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[23:50] <JetForMe> Randomskk: UUID is 7f56d916fa06c58ba96757d27b8a1e954426f805
[23:50] <Randomskk> huh. http://habhub.org/predict ?
[23:50] <JetForMe> I've tried changing the launch times around a bit. At first I tried HD, then switched to standard.
[23:50] <JetForMe> I have many lines like this:
[23:50] <JetForMe> Polling for progress JSON timed out
[23:50] <JetForMe> Increasing AJAX timeout from 500ms to 1000ms
[23:50] <JetForMe> Polling for progress JSON timed out
[23:50] <JetForMe> Increasing AJAX timeout from 1000ms to 1500ms
[23:50] <JetForMe> Server says: downloaded 10% of GFS files
[23:50] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[23:50] <JetForMe> S
[23:51] <Randomskk> are you on habhub.org/predict ?
[23:51] <JetForMe> Definitely more than 10 of those lines ;-)
[23:51] <JetForMe> http://www.habhub.org/predict
[23:51] <Randomskk> curious. the uuid isn't even showing up. it might be an issue with the NOAA servers
[23:51] <Randomskk> we really need a system status light.
[23:51] <Randomskk> best I can say right now is try again in a few hours. they update four times a day
[23:52] <Randomskk> it doesn't appear to be a problem on our end
[23:53] <JetForMe> k
[23:54] <JetForMe> BTW, when I set my location via the map, and click "save," it always zooms it back out
[23:55] <JetForMe> Here's my UUID on habhub: d40533019118d63c0abb8c7499104396e255d78f
[23:55] <JetForMe> looks like same problem
[23:55] <JetForMe> no timeout messages in debug log, just many "downloaded 10%" messages
[23:55] <Randomskk> yea, it appears to be a problem with NOAA.
[23:55] <JetForMe> okay
[23:55] <JetForMe> no worries
[23:55] <Randomskk> were you not on habhub before?
[23:55] <JetForMe> oh yes I was...dunno what I was thinking
[23:56] <JetForMe> I was on www.habhub.org, and when I tried the link you posted, it forgot who I was (lost my saved locations). I thought I must've been on a different one
[23:57] <Randomskk> probably just the difference between www and not
[00:00] --- Fri Sep 17 2010