highaltitude.log.20100911

[00:04] <johnnyfive_> er1k757, what did you use on the receiving end?
[00:17] <er1k757> oh.. in the car, we used a yaesu VX-7R with an external mag-mount antenna and a TinyTrak4 connected to a laptop
[00:18] <er1k757> but since we were hitting digipeaters, we just followed the flight on aprs.fi
[00:18] <er1k757> using an EVDO card
[00:20] <Darkside> ok work time
[00:21] <johnnyfive_> digipeaters: people with RF equipment that follow your APRS and put the location on the net?
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[00:41] <johnnyfive_> and is there a reason you went with the yeasu, instead of buying the RX1 with an antenna and just building somet to attach it to? Seems cheaper than the yaesu and tinytrak.
[00:41] <johnnyfive_> Unless you already had a yaesu, I suppose
[00:41] <johnnyfive_> er1k757,
[00:41] <Randomskk> using proper radios to receive is much much much better
[00:41] <Randomskk> the RX1 is way less sensitive
[00:42] <johnnyfive_> I see.
[00:42] Action: SpeedEvil is being silly.
[00:42] <Randomskk> but if you're using APRS and it's working anyway, you don't need a receiving radio at all, theoretically
[00:42] Action: SpeedEvil is doing astrophotography with his mobile.
[00:42] <johnnyfive_> using the digipeaters?
[00:42] <Randomskk> johnnyfive_: yea.
[00:42] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: ooh.
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> You can actually see bright stars. :)
[00:42] <Randomskk> that sounds either silly or convoluted
[00:42] <Randomskk> nice
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> It goes up to 1s
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> with third party software
[00:42] <Randomskk> I guess there's no reason you couldn't do the same clever image processing magic after the fact
[00:43] <SpeedEvil> that too, yes
[00:43] <Randomskk> but it's still not exactly a great sensor?
[00:43] <SpeedEvil> Umm
[00:43] <SpeedEvil> It's a very good sensor for having only a 1.6mm lens
[00:43] <Randomskk> well, fair enough. perhaps "not a very good imaging module" is fairer
[00:43] <johnnyfive_> so theoretically, if I didn't have the money for a good receiver setup, I could just put this in my HAB setup with APRS and use that
[00:44] <johnnyfive_> i'm sorry for the questions, you guys are being immensely helpful
[00:44] <Randomskk> johnnyfive_: yes. but like, you'd be totally stuffed if digipeaters didn't find it, and you couldn't foxhunt it on the ground (direction finding with the radio)
[00:44] <johnnyfive_> right
[00:44] <Randomskk> personally I'd get a yaesu or similar with a directional antenna for chasing the thing. if digipeaters work, consider it a nice bonus
[00:46] <johnnyfive_> Do I need a HAM license to use a yaesu?
[00:46] <Randomskk> not to receive
[00:47] <johnnyfive_> perfect
[00:53] <johnnyfive_> The signal from the yaesu, do they have an output or something i'm missing? Serial to the tinytrak?
[00:53] <Randomskk> we use the audio output from the yaesu to a sound card
[00:54] <johnnyfive_> I see, and use a program to decode it I assume
[00:54] <johnnyfive_> Which would be?
[00:54] <Randomskk> depends on platform. on linux, I use xastir
[00:54] <Randomskk> on windows I have no idea but searching "aprs windows" will almost certainly get you going quickly
[00:59] <johnnyfive_> Right of course. Thanks for all the answers!
[01:15] <johnnyfive_> Randomskk, one last question. You said I don't need a HAM license to xmit. What about the HAB transmitting? What does that fall under?
[01:15] <Randomskk> xmit means transmit
[01:16] <Randomskk> you don't need the license to receive
[01:16] <johnnyfive_> yes
[01:16] <Randomskk> you would to transmit
[01:16] <johnnyfive_> But the balloon would be transmitting
[01:16] <Randomskk> for the HAB balloon, you do to transmit on 2m APRS
[01:16] <johnnyfive_> I see, so i'd need a license to use that device
[01:16] <Randomskk> in the UK, amateur licenses can't be used in the air, so we use radio transmissions on license excempt bits of spectrum, same as car keyfobs
[01:16] <Randomskk> you'd need a license to use a 2m APRS device on a balloon, yes. there are other ways you can do it which don't need a license, but won't work with APRS
[01:20] <johnnyfive_> well looks like I have some studying to do
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[03:00] <natrium42> juxta|console, hi
[03:00] <natrium42> so... where is panorama? :)
[03:25] <juxta|console> hehe
[03:25] <juxta|console> I had a quick play but have been a bit busy :(
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[07:17] <Upu> morning
[07:19] <juxta|console> morning Upu
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[07:42] <jcoxon> morning
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[09:00] <juxta|console> the UVB-76 article on wiki has been listed for deletion! D:
[09:03] <fsphil> spooky ;)
[09:03] <fsphil> I tuned into that a while back, sounds like an old alarm clock
[09:09] <juxta|console> it had a revival recently fsphil
[09:10] <juxta|console> went off the air for a while, plus a flutter of activity
[09:10] <fsphil> maybe someone hit snooze?
[09:10] <juxta|console> heh
[09:10] <fsphil> yea I was reading about that -- I've yet to hear any voice on it, but I don't really listen to it
[09:10] <fsphil> it is very very odd
[09:11] <juxta|console> you should be able to pick it up well now, people have mentioned the signal strength is now even stronger than usual
[09:11] <juxta|console> S9+10 in the UK
[09:11] <fsphil> very strong at night ... never tried during the day...
[09:11] <juxta|console> I've not tried here in aus either, though I suspect it can be heard if the conditions are right
[09:12] <fsphil> nothing atm, just noise
[09:12] <fsphil> yea hf stuff can travel pretty far
[09:13] <fsphil> my lowly 5w wspr signal was picked up in aus, though I bet the receiver had a mighty setup
[09:14] <fsphil> "The station has recently been spoofed by European pirate radio operators" - d'oh!
[09:17] <juxta|console> yeah - there's a blog with some interesting information
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[09:20] <fsphil> Heard a number station recently.. first in a long time. I thought they'd all gone
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[10:30] <Laurenceb> hi
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[10:33] <m1x10> hi
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[10:48] <fsphil> morning all
[10:49] <Darkside> 8:20 pm here :)
[10:49] <m1x10> you live in the darkside
[10:49] <m1x10> :p
[10:50] <eroomde> good morning
[10:50] <Darkside> lol m1x10
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[10:55] <m1x10> :p
[11:01] <fsphil> looks like there might be some sstv from the ISS on monday and tuesday
[11:03] <eroomde> on 144?
[11:03] <fsphil> usually 145.8
[11:03] <eroomde> cool
[11:03] <eroomde> unfortunately my radio is in cam
[11:03] <fsphil> http://www.issfanclub.com/node/28693
[11:04] <eroomde> otherwise i would listen
[11:04] <fsphil> not much info
[11:04] <eroomde> i want to build a 2n yagi anyhoo!
[11:04] <eroomde> 2m*
[11:04] <fsphil> I ordered one, but it seems to have been out of stock forever now
[11:04] <fsphil> building is looking better
[11:04] <eroomde> the arrow seems to be quite popular
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[11:07] <fsphil> shame they're so big
[11:12] <m1x10> MATI lol means eye in GR
[11:16] <fsphil> they are watching you :)
[11:16] <m1x10> lol yes its above
[11:16] <m1x10> right now
[11:16] <m1x10> the tracking on that page works with APRS?
[11:17] <m1x10> if I have aprs receiver I can get ISS pos?
[11:17] <m1x10> they are watcing our financial crisis :P
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[11:24] <fsphil> not sure, though the position of the iss is well documented :)
[11:25] <m1x10> what do u mean by that?
[11:26] <SpeedEvil> http://www.heavens-above.com/AllPass1Sat.asp?satid=25544&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=CET
[11:26] <m1x10> lol
[11:26] <m1x10> thats static
[11:27] <SpeedEvil> There are also many dynamic calculators otu there, and apps
[11:27] <m1x10> 359 km
[11:27] <m1x10> orbit
[11:27] <m1x10> lol
[11:43] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: your idea for a single rotor ducted VTOL vehicle - could you use a glow engine for it?
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> In principle yes.
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> In practice - electric has a lot of things going for it
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> The design was really intended for ease of use
[11:44] <Laurenceb> ive found some cox.045 engines
[11:45] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I was going to link you that
[11:45] <SpeedEvil> and it has nowhere near the power needed.
[11:45] <Laurenceb> bbl
[11:45] <SpeedEvil> IIRC the max power out is of the order of 80W
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[11:54] <Laurenceb> back
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> The max power out of one of those cox engines is of rthe order of 80W IIRC
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> I need >>300
[11:55] <Laurenceb> yeah i was thinking for a micro vehicle
[11:55] <Laurenceb> its got a blown glow plug and apparently the spares are hard to find
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> They are also unreliable, noisy, and dirty
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> you can fix that yourself
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> It's just a trhin coil of Pt wire
[11:56] <Laurenceb> you can convert the cylinder cap to use normal plugs, and also do a deisel conversion which boosts the efficiency
[11:56] <Laurenceb> yeah i guess
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> I saw a howto rebuild glow plugs somewhere
[11:56] <Laurenceb> but yes they are an absolute pita to start
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:57] <Laurenceb> i saw a DARPA paper on UAVs
[11:57] <Laurenceb> they concluded that deisel glow engines were by far the best tech if you wanted range
[11:57] <Laurenceb> about an order of magnitude better than the best lipo
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> For small stuff, yes.
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> 4-stroke diesel IIRC
[11:58] <Laurenceb> they had a small hand launched airframe and kitted it out with different power sources
[11:59] <Laurenceb> - they used 2 stroke deisel and 4 stroke engines dont go that small
[11:59] <Laurenceb> ~100gram GLOW or so
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> They do go surprisingly small actually
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> fair enough
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> yeah - glow engines suck.
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> But the fuel is a couple of orders of magnitude more densr than liion which fixes that
[12:04] <Laurenceb> if it was in a ducted VTOL in pusher mode it helps to suck the exhaust away
[12:05] <Laurenceb> not sure if a Cox will work verticallly
[12:05] <Laurenceb> it has a fuel tank and carb built onto the back
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> That's really, really marginal
[12:05] <SpeedEvil> The small cox engines don't have the thrust for that
[12:06] <Laurenceb> really
[12:06] <Laurenceb> they are very light
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> You can get the engine to hover
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> but not much more
[12:06] <Laurenceb> ah
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> There is only about 80W out if it's the engine I'm thinking of
[12:11] <Laurenceb> i wish seeedstudio would get the dso nano back in stock
[12:11] <Darkside> i look at those and see the 1MHZ bandwidth, and go naaaaaah
[12:12] <Darkside> for what I'm working on, 100MHz bandwidth is almost not enough
[12:12] <Laurenceb> yeah but its cheap
[12:12] <Darkside> heh
[12:12] <Darkside> my CRO was cheap :P
[12:12] <Laurenceb> its useful for a lot of applications
[12:12] <Laurenceb> like a multimeter ++
[12:12] <Darkside> my uni gave it to me as 'payment' for doign some PR work :P
[12:12] <Laurenceb> heh
[12:12] <Darkside> 100MHz Trio CRO
[12:13] <Darkside> also dealextreme have some very good digital scopes for about $400
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[12:33] <Laurenceb> anyone here used netbeans ?
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[13:07] <m1x10> Laurenceb: what about it?
[13:08] <Laurenceb> was thinking of trying it thats all
[13:08] <Laurenceb> for GUI studd
[13:08] <Laurenceb> *stuff
[13:08] <m1x10> swing?
[13:08] <m1x10> you mean visual programming?
[13:27] <Laurenceb> just simple gui stuff
[13:29] <m1x10> if its that simple do it by hand
[13:30] <m1x10> no need to load that heavy netbeans
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[13:53] <Upu> quick question the RFGND on the NTX2 should that be connected to the circuits ground ?
[13:53] <Randomskk> doesn't need to be
[13:53] <Randomskk> run tracks from both rfgnd pins parallel to your signal on the pcb, and they connect to the shield of the connector and the coax and then go to your radials
[13:53] <Upu> any benefits or doesn't matter either way ?
[13:54] <Randomskk> I wouldn't do it
[13:54] <Upu> ok thx
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[13:55] <Upu> Eagle keeps connecting it up and I have no idea why
[13:55] <Randomskk> the pin might be of GND type in the library?
[13:56] <Upu> ah
[13:56] <Upu> brb
[13:58] <Upu> is that direction ?
[13:58] <Randomskk> might be
[13:58] <Upu> if you do pin properties it's got direction NC
[13:58] <Randomskk> that's interesting. check it's not connected on your schematic or anything either
[13:58] <Upu> its not
[13:58] <Randomskk> how about the connector's shield pins?
[14:00] <Upu> not sure what you mean there
[14:00] <Randomskk> so like, if you just have the ntx2 and both its rfgnd pins are disconnected
[14:00] <Randomskk> eagle tries to make them ground?
[14:00] <Upu> yes
[14:00] <Randomskk> what if you do connect them to something not-ground?
[14:00] <Upu> They are .. oh wait
[14:01] <Upu> connected to an SMA plug which probably has sheild set as ground.... brb
[14:01] <Upu> ah ha
[14:01] <Upu> bingo :)
[14:01] <Upu> thx
[14:01] <Randomskk> np
[14:02] <Randomskk> that is what I think I meant by 13:58:52 <Randomskk> how about the connector's shield pins?
[14:02] <Upu> haha ok
[14:02] <Upu> yes now I get it
[14:02] <Randomskk> silly eagle trying to make your life easier
[14:03] <Upu> I've used more user friendly pieces of software in my life it would be fair to say
[14:03] <Randomskk> there are much worse pcb design tools, too
[14:03] <Randomskk> I don't think it would hurt to have it grounded
[14:04] <Randomskk> hmmm, it does make me wonder a bit. Laurenceb has grounded it at the connector on his
[14:04] <Randomskk> but like, it definitely doesn't need it, either.
[14:04] <Upu> I'll leave it
[14:05] <Upu> can always cut the track
[14:05] <Randomskk> yea
[14:05] <Upu> and if eagle tells me it can't back annotate ones more I swear I'll swear
[14:05] <Randomskk> heh
[14:05] <Randomskk> that's bad, by the way. you want it to keep doing back annotation.
[14:05] <Randomskk> be sure to always have the right sch and brd open together
[14:11] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/atmega.jpg
[14:12] <Upu> I'm open to any comments as I've not done any PCB design before
[14:12] <Randomskk> get rid of all the right angles
[14:12] <Randomskk> use only 45 degrees
[14:12] <Randomskk> you have mostly done that, but like, by the resistors
[14:12] <Randomskk> also, make things thicker where you can
[14:12] <Randomskk> no need for everything to be that tiny very thin trace
[14:12] <Randomskk> finally, ground plane
[14:12] <Upu> that like a mesh all round the board linking in GND ?
[14:13] <Randomskk> yes
[14:13] <Randomskk> in the command line box, type polygon GND, then click to define its boundaries
[14:13] <Randomskk> for the SMA connector though I'm not sure why it looks like that
[14:13] <Randomskk> it should be like, two thick traces from RFGND to its shield pads
[14:13] <Randomskk> and one in the middle to the actual out
[14:14] <Randomskk> what's the line going to the other end of the ntx2?
[14:14] <Upu> under the NTX2 ? Thats the output from the Arduino
[14:14] <Upu> via the resitor network
[14:14] <Upu> resistor
[14:16] <Darkside> i'm surprised how you guys drive the NTX2
[14:16] <Darkside> you just change the supply voltage, right?
[14:16] <Randomskk> no, the signal input voltage
[14:16] <Randomskk> Upu: the one going from the bottom 4 pads of the NTX2 into the SMA connector
[14:17] <Upu> thats the GND I've been talking about
[14:17] <Randomskk> well you definitely don't want it like that
[14:17] <Randomskk> you want literally two fat traces from the RFGND pads going to the SMA connector's shield pads
[14:18] <Randomskk> and another from the RFOUT to the centre pin
[14:18] <Upu> how do I manually do stuff to a board without Eagle constantly moaning about back annotation ?
[14:18] <Randomskk> you need to have always had the sch and brd open at the same time
[14:18] <Randomskk> otherwise you messed it up
[14:18] <Randomskk> if you run a ERC check it should fix things
[14:18] <Upu> they are
[14:18] <Randomskk> but like, they weren't always
[14:18] <Randomskk> or you didn't create the board from the sch?
[14:19] <Upu> I did
[14:20] <Randomskk> run the ERC
[14:20] <Randomskk> button near ratsnest, autorouter, drc, etc
[14:20] <Upu> yeah still not letting me it's this silly GND thing
[14:21] <Upu> might have to fix the part for the SMA connector and do it again
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[14:29] <Upu> stil trying to link it to GND
[14:35] <Upu> ok fixed that
[14:47] <johnnyfive_> morning gents
[14:53] <fsphil> afternoon :)
[14:59] <johnnyfive_> That too
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[15:07] <Laurenceb> someone pined me?
[15:07] <Laurenceb> *pinged
[15:08] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: I just mentioned that you connected RFGND to your system ground
[15:08] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:08] <Laurenceb> as there has to be a current flow from it to the power supply
[15:09] <Laurenceb> but connect at a single point thats as close as poss to the decoupling caps
[15:09] <Laurenceb> i also used a rf sheild and rf chokes in a pi network
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[15:10] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: did you put a 4u7 cap onto VDD3 on your stm32 boards?
[15:10] <Randomskk> yea
[15:10] <Laurenceb> i didnt spot that first time around
[15:11] <Randomskk> it is sneakily mentioned on one page of hundreds
[15:11] <Randomskk> 100n on all VDDs, 4u7 on VDD3, 1u on VDDA
[15:16] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:18] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/uzpMs.png <- managed to fit it in as C58 below C37
[15:18] <Laurenceb> luckyl there was some space
[15:19] <Laurenceb> am waiting for theDSO nano to be back in stock before ordering now
[15:20] <Laurenceb> ill get a bus pirate as well
[15:20] <Laurenceb> anyone got either?
[15:20] <Randomskk> I have the bus pirate
[15:20] <Randomskk> it is quite neat
[15:20] <Randomskk> but I don't find myself actually using it for a huge amount compared to my logic analyser
[15:21] <Randomskk> have used for a variety of little things though
[15:21] <Laurenceb> which logic analyser do you have?
[15:21] <Randomskk> Logic (saleae)
[15:22] <Laurenceb> ah yeah seen that
[15:22] <Laurenceb> looks neat
[15:22] <Laurenceb> cant the bus pirate be used for some logic analyser stuff?
[15:23] <Randomskk> it can, but I don't think it's as good or something
[15:23] <Randomskk> sparkfun have a new logic analyser for sale that looked nice
[15:23] <Randomskk> Logic's software is really good. it's pretty, and it decodes a lot of serial protocols
[15:24] <Laurenceb> http://code.google.com/p/the-bus-pirate/wiki/GuideLogicAnalyzerMode
[15:24] <Laurenceb> yeah i saw
[15:26] <Laurenceb> the open logic sniffer looks neat
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[16:43] <W0OTM> WB8ELK launch still on?
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[16:55] Nick change: SiGNOUT_ -> SiGNOUT
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[20:05] <eroomde> g'evening all
[20:07] <SpeedEvil> http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2010/09/how-not-to-fire-tornado.html
[20:09] <Laurenceb> reading slashdot i see
[20:09] Action: Laurenceb is trying to make kicad work
[20:09] <Laurenceb> seems to be potentially very powerful and give good results... just a bit goofy
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[20:09] <Laurenceb> like eagle 3.0 full version designed more sensibly
[20:10] <Laurenceb> have to hit redraw all the time
[20:10] <SpeedEvil> indeed.
[20:12] <Laurenceb> tried it?
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[20:14] <SpeedEvil> no
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> neither eagle, or kicad, or fire tornados.
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[20:28] <Laurenceb> cant work out how to make a new module now :-/
[20:43] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/overlaid.jpg
[20:44] <Randomskk> it's like eagle but irl :o
[20:44] <Randomskk> also, really confusing
[20:44] <Randomskk> thank god it's only a single sided board
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[22:09] <m1x10> How is possible to see if someone talked to me when I open irc?
[22:09] <m1x10> something like server-side logging..!?!
[22:10] <Darkside> run an irc client on a server, all the time
[22:10] <Darkside> then just attach to that irc client when you want to go on IRC
[22:10] <Darkside> i run irssi in a screen session on one of my servers at home
[22:10] <m1x10> I dont own a server right now
[22:11] <eroomde> you're out of luck then
[22:11] <m1x10> I was thinking of the posibility the irc servers has some kind of log feature
[22:11] <m1x10> but seems not
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> Mmmm.
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> Surprise fruit.
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> It turns out the large plant I wasn't sure what it was in the greenhouse is a grape vine.
[22:14] <m1x10> Who knows the diptrace ?
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[22:56] <jcoxon> m1x10, http://www.habhub.org/zeusbot/
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[22:57] <m1x10> ooooooh
[22:57] <m1x10> cool
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[00:00] --- Sun Sep 12 2010