highaltitude.log.20100906

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[00:31] <Darkside> morning juxta
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[04:16] <SAIDias> if you use a 1200g balloon and under inflate it, will it go higher than the manufacture burst alt?
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[06:26] <juxta> SAIDias, pretty much, yes
[06:28] <Darkside> hmm
[06:28] <Darkside> still havent heard anything from paul hoffman :(
[06:28] <Darkside> will have to email him again
[06:28] <Darkside> i've got another friend here who wants to do his standard license
[06:35] <juxta> hey Darkside
[06:35] <juxta> I will talk to him next time I hear him on the radio for your
[06:35] <juxta> you*
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[06:45] <Darkside> cool
[06:45] <Darkside> also it turns out VK5GH knows my dad :P
[06:45] <Darkside> VK5NEX is my dad
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[12:34] <juxta> ping jonsowman, Randomskk
[12:35] <Randomskk> hi
[12:35] <juxta> how's things?
[12:35] <Randomskk> good. playing with weather station ethernet
[12:35] <Randomskk> got it pinging!
[12:35] <Randomskk> you?
[12:36] <juxta> hehe, going well here, we had a day of good weather, woo!
[12:37] <juxta> was just going to give you a heads up - the guy I mentioned to you a little while ago re using ferret for a launch got back to me, I'll direct him to the mailing list
[12:37] <juxta> I think he's keen to use ferret if possible
[12:37] <Randomskk> ferret is I think maybe usable
[12:37] <Randomskk> but has 24km gps cutout
[12:38] <Randomskk> worth bearing in mind
[12:38] <Randomskk> works on recovery going down though
[12:38] <juxta> that's the main thing :)
[12:43] <Randomskk> but yea, point him to the mailing list and get him on irc
[12:47] <Darkside> juxta: when do you reckon the next launch will be?
[12:47] <Darkside> so i have some kind of date to aim for :P
[12:48] <juxta> Darkside, not too sure at the moment. we have a few things in the pipeline with some people from melbourne ane perth
[12:48] <juxta> and*
[12:48] <juxta> but there'll almost certainly be a launch on 10/10/10
[12:49] <Darkside> heh
[12:49] <Darkside> cool
[12:49] <fsphil> 10 launches? :)
[12:49] <Darkside> i havent been able to work much on my HF system lately, had too much other uni work to do
[12:49] <juxta> if you get impatient just tell me and we'll fly your payload whenever it's ready ;)
[12:49] <Darkside> lol
[12:49] <Darkside> i have a lot of testing to do before putting it on a balloon
[12:50] <juxta> we'll see fsphil, it just might end up being Horus 10 :P
[12:50] <Darkside> shit, i havent even measured frequency drift with temperature yet
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[14:01] <griffonbot> @nearsys: The new design for the NearSpace UltraLight is going well. As soon as I get a radio from Lemos, I'm ready for a full up test. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/23146986966]
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> Ow.
[14:23] Action: SpeedEvil has just dropped a 50Kg metal pole on his head.
[14:23] <SpeedEvil> Only 15cm, but it still hurt quite a lot.
[14:30] <fsphil> gravity always wins
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[15:49] Action: DanielRichman slaps griffonbot
[15:49] <DanielRichman> wakey wakey!
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[15:52] <DanielRichman> oops.
[15:52] <DanielRichman> oh well
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[15:52] Action: griffonbot is GriffonBot [http://github.com/ssb/griffonbot]
[15:52] Action: griffonbot is following: #arhab #ukhas #cusf
[15:52] Action: griffonbot is tracking emails sent to ukhas@googlegroups.com
[15:53] <DanielRichman> it seems that * DanielRichman slaps griffonbot translated to a signal 11
[15:53] <Randomskk> nice
[15:53] <natrium42> lol
[15:53] <DanielRichman> where "slap" is attach with gdb and attempt to force-close a socket
[15:53] <DanielRichman> it didn't really work
[15:54] <DanielRichman> the IMAP connection had (for some reason) got stuck in "CLOSE_WAIT"
[15:54] <DanielRichman> and wasn't doing anything, and wasn't being restarted
[15:54] <DanielRichman> so it totally ignored that email to the list.
[15:54] <DanielRichman> so the plan was to gdb> attach gdb> print close(14) but that just failed.
[15:55] <DanielRichman> griffonbot discards any messages that are sitting in teh IMAP inbox when it starts so I'll have to go dig the message up
[15:55] <DanielRichman> (discard to avoid massive flooding if it's offline for a while)
[15:56] <griffonbot> Received email: "aiqy65@googlemail.com" <aiqy65@googlemail.com> "Tracking System Help"
[15:56] <DanielRichman> There we go
[15:56] <griffonbot> :)
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> you used to - ~2.4? - be able to do sockdown() on a fd from /proc/nnn/fd
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> And it would work - from some other process.
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> That was handy
[15:57] <DanielRichman> oh right. I probably ought to look up how to properly close a fd ""remotely""
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> It does not work now
[15:58] <DanielRichman> the first google result told me to attach with gdb and do what I tried :X
[15:58] <DanielRichman> otoh when I tried that in gdb it kept on complaining about receiving SIGTRAPs while executing my close()
[15:58] <DanielRichman> so I told it to ignore sigtrap. Maybe that caused the sigsegv
[15:59] <DanielRichman> ideally I'd write some code so that I can send griffonbot a SIGHUP and it will drop everything and restart
[15:59] <DanielRichman> or maybe USR1 for mail, USR2 for twitter, etc.
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[16:02] <DanielRichman> apparently this http://users.linpro.no/ingvar/fdswap.sh.txt works. Will try that next time :)
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[16:43] <timbobel> hey
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[16:50] <fsphil> evening!
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[16:57] <timbobel> i was contacted by an offshore company that wants pictures of their naval units
[16:58] <timbobel> from the sky, during semi bad weather (= no fly by with planes of choppers possible)
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[17:07] <Upu> thats what happens when you decide to land in water :)
[17:07] <timbobel> :-)
[17:07] <Upu> may I suggest a remote control air ship hell even automated
[17:08] <Upu> airship drone
[17:08] Action: Upu goes and makes one
[17:08] <timbobel> it'll be attached to a rope
[17:08] <Upu> to the ship ?
[17:08] <timbobel> to another ship
[17:08] <Upu> how high ?
[17:08] <timbobel> dunno, 100~50m?
[17:09] <Upu> doesn't sound much hell you could put a camera on a pole :)
[17:12] <timbobel> could be true
[17:15] <DanielRichman> tethered balloons?
[17:15] <DanielRichman> I think CUSF have tried them. They said they were an absolute pain to get under control if I remember correctly; if you want to do it in semi bad weather it might be even harder
[17:16] <timbobel> why exactly?
[17:16] <DanielRichman> Don't know
[17:16] <Randomskk> they get blown all over the bloody place
[17:16] <Randomskk> need some really quite strong cable
[17:16] <timbobel> yeah well i forsaw that
[17:16] <DanielRichman> however tethered balloons are cool since in the UK the oppressive no-callsigns-in-the-air rules don't apply, I think
[17:17] <DanielRichman> so you can have a 400W tethered balloon
[17:17] <DanielRichman> ((amirite?))
[17:17] <timbobel> you are right
[17:17] Action: Upu digs out 32km of carbon nonofibre
[17:17] <DanielRichman> you need a cutdown or something though; so if the rope snaps it will just go 100m, release balloon and splash down
[17:17] <DanielRichman> and since you already have a boat you roll over to pick it up
[17:18] <DanielRichman> and repeat :P
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[17:20] <fsphil> a 100m pole would be... tricky. esp. on a boat
[17:21] <Upu> I made an antenna :) http://ava.upuaut.net/files/antenna.jpg that look about right ? I have one question the radials and aerial are made from 75 ohm TV coax is that going to break anything ?
[17:21] <timbobel> looks great, nice one
[17:21] <Randomskk> it all needs to be 50 ohm really
[17:21] <Randomskk> unless you've just used the centre conductor?
[17:21] <DanielRichman> Upu: do you mean that the radials and antenna use copper that you've extracted from 75ohm coax?
[17:21] <DanielRichman> and discarded the rest?
[17:21] <timbobel> oh come on, my radials were from household copper wire
[17:21] <Randomskk> oh, fine
[17:21] <Randomskk> yea that looks okay
[17:22] <Randomskk> well is the feeder 50 or 75?
[17:22] <DanielRichman> yeah the feeder should be 50 :)
[17:22] <Randomskk> also those radials should probably be bent a bit. 45 degrees or so
[17:22] <Randomskk> 45 degrees upwards that is
[17:22] <Randomskk> away from the driven element
[17:22] <Randomskk> so it looks like >- side-on
[17:23] <Upu> the feed cable is a 50 ohm sma patch
[17:23] <Randomskk> yea, that's fine
[17:23] <Upu> to a 50 ohm sma to n-type convertor
[17:23] <Upu> onto a 50 ohm ntype panel plug
[17:23] <Upu> but the copper out of the bottom is 75ohm
[17:23] <Randomskk> that's fine
[17:23] <Upu> Yes DanielRichman
[17:24] <Randomskk> the 75ohm is just the combination of copper center conductor, dielectric and shielding
[17:24] <Upu> ah
[17:24] <Upu> so with bear copper it probably makes squat difference ?
[17:24] <DanielRichman> with bare copper it's just copper
[17:24] <timbobel> i have no idea what the practical difference is between 75 and 50.
[17:24] <DanielRichman> 25Ohms?
[17:24] <Upu> gotcha
[17:25] <Upu> and they want bending up Randomskk ?
[17:25] <Upu> I read that actually
[17:25] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/files/2010-09-03%2019-26-16_0003.jpg
[17:25] <Upu> like that upside down
[17:26] <Upu> I'm not bending them too much at the moment as I just dropped it down the stairs and bent it all lol
[17:26] <Randomskk> whoever drew the bottom part of that image has it wrong
[17:26] <Randomskk> but the top part is correct
[17:26] <Upu> I drew the image I know
[17:27] <Upu> great thanks
[17:27] <Randomskk> ah, okay :P
[17:27] <Randomskk> but yes, upside down.
[17:27] <Upu> Farnell do a really small SMA panel mount
[17:28] <timbobel> really?
[17:28] <timbobel> which, where?
[17:28] <timbobel> i was looking for one for some time now
[17:28] <Upu> I thought it may be alittle too small
[17:28] <Upu> 1 sec
[17:29] <fsphil> I found this but I'm not sure of the company -> http://www.chsinteractive.co.uk/electrical-components/plugs-sockets-adaptors/sma-connectors/sma-sockets/sma-socket-chassis-gold-plated.htm
[17:30] <Upu> http://uk.farnell.com/tyco-electronics-greenpar/1-1478963-0/socket-sma-panel/dp/1056374?Ntt=1056374
[17:30] <Upu> http://uk.farnell.com/tyco-electronics/1-1478967-0/socket-sma-panel-launcher/dp/1056376?Ntt=1056376
[17:31] <Upu> very cheap fsphil
[17:31] <fsphil> almost too cheap Upu, though I'm going to give them a go
[17:31] <fsphil> they don't mention if it's 50-ohm or not
[17:32] <fsphil> brb
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[18:44] <Laurenceb> yo
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[19:00] <SpeedEvil> yo
[19:01] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> Today I was fixing a lean-to - 6*5m next to my garage - that was sagging a lot.
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[19:02] <SpeedEvil> While doing this, I dropped a 35Kg pole I was using as a support on my head.
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> This hurt quite a lot.
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> On a balloon related matter though - I found a huuuuuge roll of polythene.
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[19:14] <timbobel> what kind
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> Umm
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> about 50Kg*~40um
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> 2m wide
[19:16] <timbobel> "Hi, we are Falcom Distributor. We know about that issue. It's up to Sarantel which changed the way of possible soldering. Very instabil way... What we don't like on Falcom Module itself is the missing shielding. If you "blow" on the module with yout mouth - You loose GPS Connection - give it a try. The oscilator is getting faster cold than the chip so the frequency is disturbed."
[19:16] <timbobel> he reacted on my falcom fsa03 evalation vid on youtube
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[19:17] <timbobel> speed, i would love a cylindrical type though :)
[19:17] <Laurenceb> what thickness polythene?
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> About 40um
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> I haven't measured it
[19:17] <Laurenceb> not bad
[19:17] Action: Laurenceb finished his minished http://i.imgur.com/m1eSk.jpg
[19:18] <SpeedEvil> http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/4728421721/ -
[19:19] <SpeedEvil> tarp
[19:19] <SpeedEvil> now not sagging.
[19:20] <Laurenceb> fun
[19:20] <Laurenceb> you need a skip :P
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> To a degree, yes.
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> At the moment, I've more been sorting out stuff, not determining what to keep.
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> And urgent maintainance.
[19:22] <SpeedEvil> A lot of that stuff is actually going to be used.
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[19:35] <Laurenceb> yeah thats how it goes
[19:36] <Laurenceb> soon as you chuck something you find a use for it
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> It's at least mostly now in consistent piles of like stuff.
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> Which is huge progress.
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[20:10] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: seeedstudio say they can do unplated through holes
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[20:11] <Laurenceb> is you send a seperate drill file and add an explanitory note
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[20:29] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: ah, cool
[20:29] <Randomskk> do you need unplated?
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[20:43] <G4TNX> Good Evening John
[20:43] <John__> hello Lee
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[20:44] <John__> Wish I knew what I was doing!
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[20:51] <John__> is Adam Greig on tonight?
[20:51] <Randomskk> hello!
[20:51] <Randomskk> right, yes, I did ask you to get on IRC
[20:51] <Randomskk> so basically we have an assembled tracker module which you can stick on stuff and does radio
[20:51] <Randomskk> but, it's in cambridge, and I'm not, and neither are you
[20:51] <LeeW> you did, you have John and Lee
[20:51] <LeeW> good evening
[20:52] <Randomskk> however we also have the code for it, which takes in NMEA from a GPS, and outputs to a radio module
[20:52] <Randomskk> it's written for an Arduino, which you may or may not have come across already
[20:53] <LeeW> have seen those mentioned on websites
[20:53] <John__> We have a FS03 GPS unit which gives NMEA data but no way to TX it
[20:53] <DanielRichman> people have flown arduino+breadboard trackers (quite a few recently), it's definitely possible in a week
[20:54] <Randomskk> we put it together in a couple of hours but like
[20:54] <Randomskk> what radio module do you have?
[20:54] <LeeW> radiometrix 10mw 433
[20:54] <John__> We also have Radiometrix transmitter just need to convert NMEA to RTTY
[20:55] <Randomskk> which module? NTX2?
[20:55] <LeeW> tx2-433-40-5v
[20:55] <John__> TX2-433-40-5V
[20:56] <John__> your faster on the keys than me Lee
[20:56] <LeeW> seem to be lots of boards on ebay, is it a case of just interfacing the gps and rf module onto the board and loading the code?
[20:57] <jonsowman> those are 433.92MHz aren't they?
[20:57] <LeeW> seem to be
[20:57] <Upu> LeeW hi and http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/ideas:notes
[20:57] <jonsowman> hmm
[20:57] <Randomskk> hmm
[20:58] <Randomskk> they differ slightly from ntx2 don't they?
[20:58] <jonsowman> there's a /lot/ of noise on that channel;
[20:58] <DanielRichman> the fact that you two have names of the same length made that funnier
[20:58] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: :P
[20:58] <John__> measured today on 433.902Mhz
[20:58] <jonsowman> John__: do you mean 433.920?
[20:59] <John__> no 433.902
[20:59] <jonsowman> the modules are .920 I believe
[20:59] <John__> think it must be a bit of frequency
[21:00] <jonsowman> loads of things like remote garage locking and car key fobs are on that frequency in the UK
[21:00] <jonsowman> hence we tend to use 434.* frequencies for HAB
[21:00] <John__> by 920 it has gone out of the passband or the RX
[21:01] <jonsowman> you may well get away with it without issue, I just don't think it's been tried before
[21:01] <jonsowman> also those modules are just under 10mW
[21:01] <jonsowman> more like 8mW
[21:02] <fsphil> I was wondering what all the noise was on the top bit of 433.* mhz -- those are key fobs?
[21:02] <jonsowman> fsphil: yeah
[21:02] <LeeW> big selection of arduino boards for sale, whats the one people use and have code for, we dont have a code writer at the moment
[21:03] <fsphil> yikes -- well yea, avoid that if you can guys
[21:03] <jonsowman> all the cheap 1mW transmitters used for car keys, garage doors, wireless weather stations, what have you
[21:03] <John__> Package so far 500Hz beacon on 433.902Mhz 2 X video cameras recording to SD card Live video on 2.468Ghz USB temperature logger Stills camera every 38 Sec and GSM / GPS module
[21:03] <jonsowman> their bands are 315 and 433.92 in the UK, but 315 is swamped with other rubbish so the 70cm band is the one that's used
[21:04] <LeeW> can easily get another tx module away from the remotes/keyfobs
[21:04] <jonsowman> however; as I said, you may get away with it, I don't believe it's been tried
[21:05] <jonsowman> the combination of a tight rx filter and a directional antenna may well completely block out all the other rubbish
[21:06] <Upu> LeeW you can use a Arduino Duemilanove for development and it's fairly easy to launch with that or just put the AtMega 328 on your own custom board
[21:06] <LeeW> launch site is in the middle of knowhere, nothing for miles around
[21:06] <John__> We also have a Link UP 458.25Mhz500mW RS232 Data link but it will not work with the NMEA Data
[21:06] <jonsowman> LeeW: that'll definitely help :)
[21:07] <DanielRichman> when choosing an arduino you mainly need to think about whether you can program it (ie you don't want one of the bare bones pro ones) and the clock speed
[21:07] <DanielRichman> if you're going to be borrowing someone's code
[21:07] <Randomskk> mostly though I'd just get a normal arduino
[21:08] <LeeW> We are going to have to borrow code as our ones and noughts man is busy until xmas, something to do with having to do work for his employer
[21:09] <LeeW> is the Arduino Duemilanove a 'normal' one and does the code exist for it?
[21:09] <Upu> there are loads of examples for say temp sensors, RTTY etc
[21:09] <Upu> honestly I know nothing about programming and managed to knock out a working flight computer
[21:10] <Randomskk> LeeW: yes and yes
[21:11] <Upu> ok dog walk bbl
[21:15] <Randomskk> LeeW: Arduinos are amazingly easy to program
[21:15] <Randomskk> but we do have code that will read NMEA from a GPS and send it out on a radiometrix module
[21:15] <Randomskk> for arduino
[21:15] <LeeW> Just looking on their website
[21:15] <Randomskk> there'd be a bit of hardware you'd have to do to wire the radio up
[21:15] <Randomskk> but to be honest you could probably even manage to code it yourself - it really is simple
[21:16] <LeeW> thats not a problem, john is an expert with the soldering iron
[21:17] <Randomskk> writing your own code is quite fun, this is a great chance to learn it etc and it's really not that hard, but basically there is code available (and help! you can ask about anything here really)
[21:18] <LeeW> code makes my head hurt, that was xx years ago when I had hair and didnt have a fat belly
[21:18] <Randomskk> it's only gotten easier in the intervening years
[21:19] <John__> does anyone have NMEA to RTTY code available for the Arduino board?
[21:19] <Randomskk> yes
[21:19] <Randomskk> here it is
[21:19] <LeeW> last time I did it I was enerting hex values byte by byte, then something clever called dos came out after I had left
[21:20] <Randomskk> http://github.com/jonsowman/ferret
[21:20] <LeeW> looks like a board is about to be bought
[21:21] <Randomskk> that code is a bit messy
[21:21] <Randomskk> it's a few gens old
[21:21] <Randomskk> but, it works
[21:22] <Randomskk> and all it needs is the arduino hooked up through a couple of resistors to the radio
[21:22] <Randomskk> and the gps on the serial port
[21:22] <Randomskk> sorted
[21:22] <Randomskk> it's quite simple
[21:22] <LeeW> at the moment 'works' is just what we need
[21:22] <LeeW> will go shopping tomorrow
[21:22] <Randomskk> you can ask for help on pretty much anything here, as I said - from the hardware to coding
[21:22] <Randomskk> no promise anyone will actually help, but usually someone does :P
[21:23] <LeeW> cheers guys, the info is much appreciated
[21:24] <Randomskk> no problem
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[21:28] <LeeW> does the 'ferret' code generate rtty or just send 'normal' serial data to the radio?
[21:29] <jonsowman> rtty
[21:30] <John__> 50Baud?
[21:30] <jonsowman> yep
[21:30] <John__> thanks
[21:30] <LeeW> looks like its going to be a steep learning curve... looking at the code, gulp
[21:30] <jonsowman> you just need to connect the output to the radio
[21:30] <jonsowman> via resistors
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[21:32] <LeeW> shopping time..
[21:32] <John__> does the serial in take 232 levels or TTL our GPS sends 3.3V TTL levels but can convert if required
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[21:33] <jonsowman> TTL
[21:33] <John__> good
[21:34] <LeeW> does ttl now?
[21:34] <jonsowman> the NMEA output from the GPS can be connected directly to the software serial input on the arduino
[21:35] <Randomskk> 3v3 is high enough for 5v high
[21:35] <John__> very easy then
[21:36] <jonsowman> yup :)
[21:37] <John__> should have come on here earlier
[21:38] <LeeW> thats guys, thats given us plenty to be going on with for the next couple of days
[21:38] <LeeW> didnt know the was so big in the uk
[21:38] <LeeW> you will have to find a 'webmaster' john who can publish the results
[21:39] <John__> James can do that
[21:39] <John__> if we get this duilt by the weekend the others can put in some work
[21:40] <LeeW> off shopping, thank guys, back once the next batch of toys arrive
[21:40] <John__> my fingers don't hit the correct keys
[21:40] <jonsowman> good luck!
[21:40] <John__> Yes cheers thanks for the help will keep you up to date
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[21:42] <Randomskk> man, nearly 11pm already
[21:43] <jonsowman> hmm
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[22:30] <jcoxon> evening all
[22:31] <Randomskk> yo
[22:31] <jonsowman> hi james
[22:31] <jcoxon> hows everyone?
[22:32] <jcoxon> did people get in contact with the people who sent the email requesting help for a flight computer?
[22:33] <jonsowman> yep they were on here earlier
[22:33] <jcoxon> good good
[22:33] <jonsowman> i'm good thanks, yourself?
[22:33] <jcoxon> my flight computer is on github as well
[22:33] <jcoxon> using the tinygps lib
[22:33] <jonsowman> :)
[22:34] <jonsowman> will point them to it when they return
[22:34] <jonsowman> or email them
[22:34] <jcoxon> that said the best thing would be to look at the fsa03 page on the wiki
[22:35] <jcoxon> and use the poll command instead of doing the nmea rubbish
[22:42] <griffonbot> Received email: James Coxon <jacoxon@gmail.com> "Re: Tracking System Help"
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[22:48] <jcoxon> night
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[00:00] --- Tue Sep 7 2010