highaltitude.log.20100827

[00:06] <Randomskk> yaaaaay ISS
[00:06] Action: Randomskk heard them at last
[00:11] <LazyLeopard> Just now, or earlier?
[00:11] <Randomskk> just now
[00:11] <Randomskk> the 0001 pass
[00:12] <LazyLeopard> Quite late for them?
[00:12] <Randomskk> yea
[00:13] <LazyLeopard> A good pass (position-wise) for talking to them, being almost directly overhead...
[00:15] <LazyLeopard> ...and we're coming up for some visible passes at good times in the next week or so.
[00:15] <Randomskk> I thought being overhead would be bad due to radiation pattern of my whip
[00:15] <Randomskk> but it turns up that's great
[00:15] <LazyLeopard> Lay the whip horizontal...
[00:16] <LazyLeopard> Wouldn't be so good for the vertical I've got outside...
[00:24] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc:
[00:34] LazyLeopard (~irc-clien@chocky.demon.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Bye
[00:41] DrLuke (~luke@pD951B872.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[01:27] juxta (juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) joined #highaltitude.
[01:43] alikins_ (~adrian@cpe-066-057-101-225.nc.res.rr.com) joined #highaltitude.
[01:47] <W0OTM> howdy
[01:47] <W0OTM> I am 2 days away from my first launch
[01:48] <W0OTM> how do I determine how much helium I will need to fill my 600g balloon with taking into account my neck lift
[01:56] <juxta> hey W0OTM
[01:57] <juxta> best way is to use the calculator to get an idea of how much lift you need, then at the launch site measure the neck lift either with a fish scale or some weights
[02:01] <natrium42> hmm, i guess the calculator doesn't say helium volume
[02:01] Action: natrium42 pokes Randomskk
[02:02] <juxta> oh, the CUSF one doesn't
[02:02] <juxta> I've actually been thinking it would be nice to add that
[02:02] <juxta> this one does though W0OTM: http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/guides:burst1a.xls?id=guides%3Aballoon_data&cache=cache
[02:03] Action: natrium42 just takes a 300 cu ft tank
[02:03] <natrium42> it's enough for 2 launches
[02:06] <natrium42> juxta, horus 6+7 still on?
[02:06] <W0OTM> juxta: where in the excel tool does it
[02:06] <W0OTM> Volume at Launch?
[02:06] <W0OTM> 1.479442?
[02:07] <W0OTM> how does that tell me helium volume in cu ft?
[02:07] <W0OTM> (or cu m, I can do the conversion)
[02:07] <natrium42> google can convert it
[02:07] <natrium42> 1.479442 m^3 to cu ft
[02:08] <W0OTM> 52.2460012 cu ft
[02:08] <W0OTM> woo hoo
[02:08] <natrium42> :)
[02:08] <W0OTM> my Q tank is big enough
[02:09] <natrium42> but you should plug in your values
[02:09] <natrium42> into the xls
[02:14] <W0OTM> I did
[02:14] <W0OTM> balloon size, ascent rate and payload
[02:19] <W0OTM> hmm, xls doesn't calc burst alt
[02:21] <W0OTM> how do I know my Launch Dia (m)?
[02:24] <juxta> W0OTM, xls does calculate burst alt
[02:25] <juxta> launch dia is the parameter you should be increasing
[02:25] <juxta> to get the asc rate you want
[02:25] <juxta> then read off the volume
[02:25] <W0OTM> OH
[02:26] <W0OTM> I pluged in my ascent rate
[02:26] <juxta> just re-open it
[02:26] <juxta> and edit the green cells - the red and yellow ones are derived from your input in the green cells
[02:27] <W0OTM> 10m......
[02:27] <W0OTM> wow
[02:27] <W0OTM> volume at launch is 523.5988?
[02:27] <W0OTM> that doesn't seem right
[02:28] <juxta> your balloon won't be 10m in diameter at launch
[02:28] <juxta> maybe 1.5m - 2m
[02:29] <W0OTM> I plug in 2m
[02:29] <W0OTM> and get a Scent Rate (m/sec) of .73
[02:29] <juxta> what is your payload weight?
[02:29] <W0OTM> 1630
[02:29] <juxta> & balloon size?
[02:29] <W0OTM> 600g balloon
[02:31] <juxta> did you restart the calculator? I get an asc rate of approx 6m/s with 2m diameter (4.1cu m volume) and a 600g balloon with 1630g payload
[02:31] <W0OTM> yeah, my bed
[02:31] <W0OTM> bad
[02:31] <W0OTM> my formulas were all screw up
[02:32] <juxta> 1600g payload is fairly heavy for a 600g balloon though
[02:32] <W0OTM> how about tieing 2 600g balloons
[02:32] <W0OTM> do I treat it like a single 1200g balloon?
[02:32] <juxta> it's probably worth lowering the launch diameter to say 1.7m, then you'll get 3m/s ascent, and the burst alt will be much higher
[02:33] <juxta> (plus you'll need less gas)
[02:33] <juxta> 2 balloons is a bit tricky as they are unlikely to burst at the same time
[02:33] <Darkside> morning all
[02:33] <juxta> you really need a system to cut the string if you use 2 balloons
[02:33] <juxta> hey Darkside
[02:33] <W0OTM> 90.8448966 cu ft
[02:33] <W0OTM> of helium
[02:34] <W0OTM> thats more than my Q tank
[02:34] <juxta> you will need a bit of gas to get 1600g of payload in the air\
[02:35] <juxta> Darkside, I sent out an email to the list last night but then realised I hadn't added you despite actually having your email address - I'll send it to you now :)
[02:36] <W0OTM> juxta: thanks for your help! with a 3m/s ascent, its still getting to 90,000ft
[02:36] <W0OTM> thats fine for me
[02:36] <juxta> yeah - slower asc will give you a higher burst alt
[02:36] <W0OTM> how accurate is this xls file?
[02:36] alikins_ (~adrian@cpe-066-057-101-225.nc.res.rr.com) left irc: Quit: alikins_
[02:36] <juxta> pretty good
[02:36] <W0OTM> ok
[02:36] <juxta> if you get the amount of gas right it's really good
[02:37] <juxta> I did a balloon the other day, estimated burst at 31k, it actually burst at 31.2km
[02:37] <Darkside> juxta: cool
[02:37] <Darkside> also i'm thinking HF might not work well on a balloon
[02:37] <juxta> you don't have a radio with sideband on 70cm do you Darkside?
[02:37] <Darkside> the antenna will be trailing down
[02:37] <Darkside> nope
[02:38] <juxta> yeah - I'd be happy to fly your gear when it's ready :)
[02:38] <Darkside> if the antenna is trailing down, then the radiation pattern will go out into space
[02:38] <juxta> we can trail it up
[02:38] <Darkside> admittedly it will still be receivable from the ground still
[02:38] <juxta> but I guess thats the same really
[02:39] <juxta> there have been some tests I think - someone got from the UK to Germany with HF on a tethered balloon from memory
[02:40] <juxta> if you have an FM receiver you should be able to hear us on the airborne repeater
[02:40] <W0OTM> how do I calc neck lift?
[02:40] <W0OTM> payload + Free lift?
[02:41] <juxta> yeah
[02:41] <W0OTM> ok
[02:44] <Darkside> juxta: yeah 'll be able to listen to horus 7, i'm working on saturday
[02:45] <Darkside> oh man
[02:45] <Darkside> horus 7 doesnt have the parrot repeater :(
[02:51] <W0OTM> is there a site that shows volumes of the different tank sizes
[02:52] alikins_ (~adrian@cpe-066-057-101-225.nc.res.rr.com) joined #highaltitude.
[03:08] jasonb (~jasonb@adsl-66-124-73-250.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) joined #highaltitude.
[03:20] jasonb (~jasonb@adsl-66-124-73-250.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[03:44] jasonb (~jasonb@adsl-66-124-73-250.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) joined #highaltitude.
[03:57] DrLuke (~luke@pD951B872.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc:
[04:05] jasonb (~jasonb@adsl-66-124-73-250.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[04:26] jasonb (~jasonb@adsl-66-124-73-250.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) joined #highaltitude.
[04:31] <juxta> W0OTM, tank sizes aren't really standardised I dont think
[04:32] <juxta> we have different ones here in australia to the US and UK
[04:34] <W0OTM> ok thx
[05:04] alikins_ (~adrian@cpe-066-057-101-225.nc.res.rr.com) left irc: Quit: alikins_
[05:09] jshriver (~jshriver@cblmdm24-53-177-197.buckeyecom.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[06:08] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[06:16] juxta (juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[06:30] Upu (~Upu@ubn.upuaut.net) joined #highaltitude.
[07:21] Simon-MPFH (~simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[07:41] juxta (juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) joined #highaltitude.
[07:52] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210187222.dsl.hol.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[08:06] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210187222.dsl.hol.gr) left irc: Quit: I eat electrons for breakfast and I vomit thunders
[08:49] <Upu> morning
[08:51] <fsphil> morning upu
[08:55] SpeedEvil (1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[09:14] GeekShadow (~Antoine@reactos/tester/GeekShadow) joined #highaltitude.
[09:20] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[09:27] <Randomskk> natrium42: oops, so it doesn't
[09:27] <Randomskk> it does work it out internally
[09:27] <Randomskk> will add it to the display soon
[09:27] <natrium42> :)
[09:28] <fsphil> hmm, ukreg support aaaa records now.
[09:28] Action: Randomskk -> work
[09:35] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[09:39] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[09:43] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210187222.dsl.hol.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[09:45] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[09:50] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[09:54] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[09:58] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[09:59] <fsphil> poor smealum
[10:02] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[10:07] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[10:12] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[10:12] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[10:13] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[10:13] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[10:14] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[10:16] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[10:18] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[10:28] Upu (~Upu@ubn.upuaut.net) left irc: Read error: No route to host
[10:30] <m1x10> hello all
[10:32] <fsphil> ello m1x10
[10:36] <m1x10> fsphil, I decided to power the backup recovery system with its own battery so to make it completely independent for any other component in the payload
[10:37] <m1x10> but a new battery increases wieght
[10:37] <m1x10> so im thinking of putting a NiMH 9v
[10:37] <fsphil> worth the extra weight I think
[10:37] <m1x10> I found one 380mAh
[10:38] <m1x10> and I have seen others using NiMH.
[10:38] <m1x10> i dont find lithium 9v
[10:39] <fsphil> energiser make a 9v lithium, but I've only seen it online
[10:39] <m1x10> man I cant find that site
[10:40] <fsphil> here's a uk supplier --> http://www.battery-force.co.uk/detail_EN9VYY001B.html
[10:40] <juxta> i've tested NiMH in the cold
[10:40] cuddykid (~acudworth@92.28.177.198) joined #highaltitude.
[10:40] <juxta> they're pretty much useless below 0 degrees
[10:41] <m1x10> oh
[10:41] <fsphil> aah good point juxta, hadn't thought of that
[10:41] <m1x10> hi juxta and thx for your info
[10:41] <m1x10> where did u tested it?
[10:41] <juxta> no worries :)
[10:41] Upu (~Upu@ubn.upuaut.net) joined #highaltitude.
[10:41] <juxta> in a box of dry ice :)
[10:41] <m1x10> temp ?
[10:41] <m1x10> lowest
[10:41] <juxta> dry ice is around -80 I think
[10:41] <m1x10> omg
[10:41] <m1x10> celsius?
[10:42] <juxta> yes
[10:42] <m1x10> you tested lithiums in the same box?
[10:43] <m1x10> fsphil, that link rulez
[10:43] <juxta> yeah
[10:43] <juxta> tested lithiums, NiCD's, NiMH, alkalines
[10:43] <m1x10> im also thinking of using 9v lithium of aprs system.
[10:43] <fsphil> m1x10, http://www.acdcshop.gr/alkalinebattery9v6lr61energizerultimate-p-1044.html
[10:43] <juxta> a few brands of lithium too
[10:44] <m1x10> fsphil, that greek but its alkaline !
[10:44] <fsphil> no forget that link, it says Alkaline
[10:44] <m1x10> yeah
[10:44] <m1x10> juxta, so from your tests whats the best choice? lithium i guess
[10:44] <juxta> yeah
[10:44] <juxta> nothing else really works cold
[10:44] <m1x10> useful information
[10:44] <m1x10> thx juxta
[10:45] <juxta> np
[10:45] <juxta> 9v lithiums are good so long as your current draw is low
[10:45] <juxta> I think most of them say 30mA max
[10:45] <juxta> continuous that is, they can probably peak a fair bit more for a short time
[10:45] <m1x10> fsphil my aprs system worked for 1 week with 6 battery pack of energizer alkalines.
[10:46] <m1x10> so im thinking of replacing with just one 9v lithium
[10:46] <m1x10> juxta
[10:46] <m1x10> 30mA max ?
[10:46] <m1x10> !
[10:47] <m1x10> where do u see that?
[10:48] <fsphil> That last uk link says 2.1A .. though I don't know how accurate that is
[10:48] <m1x10> yeah
[10:49] <m1x10> thats why im curious about juxta's info
[10:49] <juxta> some datasheet I read a while ago - that was the maximum continuous current the batteries were rated for
[10:49] <juxta> let me see if I can find it
[10:49] <m1x10> but if its not 100% accurate, still 2A are great
[10:49] <juxta> I don't imagine it would be an issue if you're only drawing bursts of current though
[10:49] <m1x10> juxta check http://www.battery-force.co.uk/detail_EN9VYY001B.html
[10:50] <fsphil> 1A according to the datasheet
[10:50] <m1x10> Battery Capacity: 1200.0mAh
[10:50] <m1x10> Battery Technology: Lithium (Single Use)
[10:50] <m1x10> Current: 2.1000A
[10:50] <fsphil> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/la522.pdf
[10:50] <juxta> hmm
[10:50] <juxta> well at 2A it'll be flat in half an hour :P
[10:50] <m1x10> fsphil its not the same bat
[10:51] <m1x10> juxta the backup system will just draw that much few times
[10:51] <m1x10> depends how many sms i send
[10:51] <juxta> ok the lithium one seems fine for lots of draw
[10:51] <juxta> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/la522.pdf
[10:52] <juxta> the one I looked at was a different brand, I think a local one
[10:52] <m1x10> its not la522
[10:53] <juxta> this is what I looked at:
[10:53] <juxta> http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/documents/techsheets/UBI-3002-U9VL-J.pdf
[10:53] <juxta> it was 120mA max, sorry
[10:53] <juxta> not 30
[10:53] <fsphil> that's quite a difference between it and the energizer one
[10:54] <m1x10> ENERGIZER LA522 is not the same as http://www.battery-force.co.uk/detail_EN9VYY001B.html
[10:54] <juxta> yeah
[10:55] <juxta> m1x10, the only other 9v lithiums that energizer have datasheets for are these:
[10:55] <juxta> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l522mj.pdf
[10:55] <juxta> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l522.pdf
[10:56] <juxta> those have the 120mA max too
[10:56] <fsphil> there doesn't seem to be a datasheet for the ultimate
[10:56] <m1x10> yeah i just noticed
[10:57] <m1x10> but just for sms I will need more than 1A ?
[10:57] <fsphil> unlikely
[10:57] <juxta> that's continuous draw m1x10, you will only have a short burst of current
[10:57] <juxta> i would say you'd be fine
[10:58] <m1x10> yeah it sais: Max Discharge : 1000 mA continuous
[10:58] <m1x10> sms bursting lasts up to 3sec at most
[10:58] <juxta> exactly
[10:58] <m1x10> nothing
[10:58] <juxta> just test it with a cheap 9v battery, they suck on current delivery
[10:58] <juxta> if that works, you'll be fine
[10:58] <m1x10> i tested with NiMH 9v
[10:59] <m1x10> rechargeable
[10:59] <m1x10> and works just normal
[10:59] <juxta> cool
[10:59] <juxta> I think you'll be fine :)
[10:59] <m1x10> yeah
[10:59] <m1x10> thx for keeping me up :):)
[10:59] <jonsowman> hi all
[10:59] <m1x10> hey jonsowman
[11:00] <juxta> 'allo jonsowman
[11:01] <juxta> hmm, if I have a helium cylinder with a known volume in litres & I can measure the pressure, I should be able to get a good idea of the gas volume @ 1 atm, right?
[11:02] <m1x10> juxta: http://imagebin.org/111502
[11:02] <juxta> nice
[11:02] <juxta> i would be a bit worried about those yellow wires coming out though!
[11:02] <m1x10> :)
[11:03] <m1x10> noooo, you need strength to get them out :)
[11:03] <m1x10> but i can use some tape
[11:03] <m1x10> its not that problem
[11:03] <juxta> hehe
[11:03] <jonsowman> juxta: PV = mRT
[11:04] <juxta> yeah I figured ideal gas would give me what I wanted
[11:04] <jonsowman> let me guess, either 10l or 20l at 200bar?
[11:04] <juxta> 22L, maybe 1/3 used on a previous balloon, will have to measure it :P
[11:04] <jonsowman> right
[11:05] <jonsowman> the only thing that might be an issue is the T
[11:05] <juxta> yeah
[11:05] <jonsowman> is the helium in the cylinder at ambient?
[11:05] <juxta> i only want a rough idea though
[11:05] <juxta> pretty much
[11:05] <jonsowman> yeah, it will certainly be roughly right
[11:05] <juxta> perhaps 15 degrees
[11:06] <juxta> awesome - I'm going to go have some dinner and then finish off launch prep for tomorrow, then measure my cylinder pressure ;p
[11:06] <jonsowman> a slight increase in temperature from cylinder to ambient will mean a slightly greater volume I guess
[11:06] <juxta> cheers jonsowman :)
[11:06] <jonsowman> hehe np
[11:40] <m1x10> I cant find someone selling LA522
[11:40] <m1x10> !!!!!!!
[11:41] <m1x10> that guy sells them in pack ~90$
[11:41] <m1x10> http://www.newark.com/energizer/la522/advanced-lithium-battery/dp/68R2922
[11:46] <m1x10> LITHIUM/IRON DISULFIDE BATTERY, 9V
[11:46] <m1x10> whats this?
[11:46] <m1x10> http://www.newark.com/energizer/la522spb/lithium-iron-disulfide-battery/dp/60R2385
[11:46] <juxta> that's the chemical composition of primary cells
[11:47] <juxta> lithium primary cells even
[11:47] <m1x10> does it have any affect to me?
[11:47] <juxta> that's what you want
[11:48] <m1x10> ok I will order them
[11:48] <m1x10> 2 makes 20$
[11:48] <m1x10> pffffff
[11:49] <m1x10> ah god, give me a job to have a humble income
[11:54] <m1x10> that site asks for company name
[11:54] <m1x10> required field
[11:55] <m1x10> also i select country, gr and keeps asking to choose an US state !
[11:59] <fsphil> I hate that
[11:59] <fsphil> there's bound to be somewhere in greece that sells these batteries
[12:01] <m1x10> no way
[12:01] <m1x10> :(
[12:08] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210187222.dsl.hol.gr) left irc: Quit: I eat electrons for breakfast and I vomit thunders
[12:21] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[12:34] SpeedEvil (1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude.
[12:44] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210187222.dsl.hol.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[12:49] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[12:52] SpeedEvil (1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[13:00] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210187222.dsl.hol.gr) left irc: Quit: I eat electrons for breakfast and I vomit thunders
[13:08] SpeedEvil (~user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude.
[13:11] SpeedEvil1 (1000@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) joined #highaltitude.
[13:12] SpeedEvil (~user@tor/regular/SpeedEvil) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[13:14] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[13:28] Simon-MPFH (~simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) left irc: Read error: No route to host
[13:42] Simon-MPFH (~simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[13:52] Hualon (~Hualon@152.16.144.213) joined #highaltitude.
[13:59] alikins_ (~adrian@cpe-066-057-101-225.nc.res.rr.com) joined #highaltitude.
[14:04] alikins_ (~adrian@cpe-066-057-101-225.nc.res.rr.com) left irc: Quit: alikins_
[14:48] Hualon (~Hualon@152.16.144.213) left irc: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]
[15:17] juxta (juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[15:19] N4XWC (438e8224@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.142.130.36) joined #highaltitude.
[15:24] juxta|console (~juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) joined #highaltitude.
[15:38] spacefelix_ (809e01a4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.158.1.164) joined #highaltitude.
[15:39] <spacefelix_> Good morning, well, from the GMT -7.
[15:39] <spacefelix_> Therefore, good afternoon!
[15:40] <jonsowman> hah hello
[15:40] <jonsowman> :)
[15:41] <spacefelix_> I have a question for you...
[15:41] <spacefelix_> ... I have a young man who is a student working on a high-altitiude rockoon.
[15:41] <spacefelix_> And he is using solid fuel, but is looking for an ignition solution.
[15:41] <SpeedEvil> Umm.
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> If he doesn't know that, he's probably not safe to work on solid fuel.
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> There are commercial pyrotechnic ignitors that are quite inexpensive.
[15:42] <SpeedEvil> What sort of mass of rocket?
[15:43] <spacefelix_> Well, the issue is that he needs to light a solid propellant grain of Aluminized rubber (specifically, Aerotech's 'White Lightning' propellant).
[15:43] <spacefelix_> After it has been exposed to near-vaccum conditions and cold temperatures.
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> Firstly.
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> I'd check that the propellant is safe in that condition.
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> For example - when cooled to -50C - the rubber will be considerably stiffer, and mighrt even crack off the case due to contraction
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> the flame-front shooting round the surface of the detached grain to the outside can cause prompt failure.
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> You can also steal ideas from the space shuttle, if conventional ignitors fail.
[15:45] <russss> and, occasionally, death
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> They have basically a teeny rocket engine - well - not so teeny - at the top of the SRB.
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> To light it
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> Also - insulating over an hour or so is not that impossible.
[15:46] <SpeedEvil> And heating also. A few watts goes a long way.
[15:46] <russss> http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/shutref/srb/ignition.html
[15:46] <russss> :)
[15:47] <SpeedEvil> How large is this rockoon?
[15:56] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 258 seconds
[15:56] <spacefelix_> Hello, had to step away for a moment...
[15:57] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210187222.dsl.hol.gr) joined #highaltitude.
[15:57] <spacefelix_> SpeedEvil: Yes, the rockoon is a small one, 1000 g balloon and a 1 kg rocket that uses a J or smaller Solid propellant grain from Aerotech.
[15:57] alexandre- (~alexandre@217.33.98.4) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> I see no great reason why a model rocket ignitor wouldn't work.
[15:58] <spacefelix_> SpeedEvil: LOL, the truth is, we are taking a page out of SRB's group. They use artillery shell charges as squibs to set of the SRB igniters.
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> If against the fuel grain
[15:59] <SpeedEvil> What's the normal ignitor used?
[15:59] <spacefelix_> Well, the reason we've shyed away from standard electric ignitors has been that the HALO team's ignition experience with rockoons has often been iffy from low temp, low-atm exposure.
[15:59] <spacefelix_> And their electrical systems fail at those temperatures.
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> Electrical systems failing is entirely your fault.
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> It's not _that_ hard to test.
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> For example, we've basically had (though I haven't personally launched a balloon) very good success with simple li-primary cells, and a small polystyrene box.
[16:01] <spacefelix_> So they resorted to using energetics that were mechanically ignited.
[16:01] <spacefelix_> In short, a gun.
[16:01] <spacefelix_> As in a mechanical trip ignites a cap and then that in turn ignites a charge .
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> The payload - a camera and radio - typically draws a watt or two, which with the box keeps the internal temp at toasty and over 0 typically.
[16:02] <spacefelix_> Ja.
[16:02] <spacefelix_> But mind, we are not flying anything else other than a rocket.
[16:02] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> Bad idea IMO.
[16:02] <spacefelix_> So we do not have an easy and lightweight option for heating.
[16:02] <SpeedEvil> GPS + tracker would be lightweight, and let you recover in the event of failure.
[16:03] <spacefelix_> The eletrical igniters could not be feasibly heated for the flight, so we did not use them nor conventional ignitors.
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> I know people have used black powder bursting charges with ignitors here with no issue.
[16:03] <SpeedEvil> At altitude, for cut-down.
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> completely unheated
[16:04] <spacefelix_> Ja, but we are igniting a rocket engine. You and I are talking about two different missions.
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> http://ukhas.org.uk/ideas:flight_support?s=ignitor
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> Sure
[16:04] <m1x10> fsphil, I send a mail at http://www.batteries.gr/ and they told me they will bring the 9v ult lithiums
[16:04] <SpeedEvil> However - the igniter works.
[16:05] <SpeedEvil> If you just want a heater - 2W for 3 hours is about 3 lithium AA cells, a total weight of about 80 grams.
[16:05] <spacefelix_> SpeedEvil: Interesting, you guys use a capacitor for the discharge?
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> That's one option.
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> It means the main batteries can be a lot less stiff.
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> And you don't risk browning out the rest of the payload on ignition.
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> You're in the US?
[16:06] <spacefelix_> Stiff?
[16:06] <spacefelix_> Ja.
[16:06] <spacefelix_> Alabama.
[16:06] <SpeedEvil> Higher ESR
[16:07] <spacefelix_> ESR = ?
[16:07] <SpeedEvil> I assume you'vre investigated FAA/...
[16:07] <spacefelix_> Ja.
[16:07] <SpeedEvil> Effectivre series resistance.
[16:07] <spacefelix_> Ah, okay.
[16:07] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[16:07] <spacefelix_> Ja, I've investigated FAA rules on rockoons.
[16:08] <SpeedEvil> Are they strict?
[16:08] <spacefelix_> Well, you do have to file a NOTAM that you are launching a rocket and give a trajectory.
[16:08] <spacefelix_> That's about it.
[16:09] <spacefelix_> Paperwork = weight of vehicle, it can fly. :P
[16:09] <SpeedEvil> Aren't balloon borne rockets seperate?
[16:09] <SpeedEvil> I know there are special rules on launching balloons
[16:09] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:09] <SpeedEvil> And I'm unsure if hazerdous payloads are allowed.
[16:09] <SpeedEvil> I think you're under the mass limit, but...
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> I know laurenceb is looking at rockoons, ut I don't think he's done any research into the lrgality.
[16:10] <spacefelix_> Per the FAA rules, balloons do not need to be registered if they weigh under 4 lbs total.
[16:10] <SpeedEvil> nartrium42 is in canada I think, and may have more knoweledge
[16:10] <spacefelix_> Only when you carry explosives or are over the 1 lb limit, then you must file a NOTAM.
[16:10] <spacefelix_> SpeedEvil: Ja.
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> Are you sure the rocket engine or ignitor is not an explosive by their definitions?
[16:11] <spacefelix_> Wait, that is the 4 lb, limit, srry.
[16:11] <spacefelix_> The rocket is by def an explosive, so we will need a NOTAM.
[16:11] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> I would want a GPS tracker of some form. You want to be able to track it if it does not ignite, and recover it.
[16:12] <spacefelix_> SpeedEvil: Ja.
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> A primed rocket that has not gone off, and has hit the ground at high speed seems like it might be a bad thing to leave around.
[16:13] <spacefelix_> LOL, that's when we question who's phone number and name get written on the side of the rocket or then someone will be looking for them. ;P
[16:14] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[16:14] <spacefelix_> SpeedEvil: So you've been working balloons for a while?
[16:14] <SpeedEvil> It tends to getr more active here in a couple of hours to maybe 6.
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> I've not launched anything yet - though I do have some related projects that I've been working on.
[16:15] <spacefelix_> Cool.
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> UAV, for example - rthat's not flown.
[16:15] <spacefelix_> Mm.
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/test.png
[16:15] <SpeedEvil> ducted fan thrust vectored 'helicopter' optimised for vertical climb.
[16:15] <spacefelix_> LOL, the hoverbot?
[16:16] <spacefelix_> Heh, looks like those kid's toys. :D
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> Altitude pessimistically 1km, more realistic assumtions seem to come out around 4-5Km
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> In a 1Kg package.
[16:16] <spacefelix_> Mmm.
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> Climb at 15-20m/s
[16:16] <spacefelix_> So a recon drone or for survey?
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> Survey
[16:16] <spacefelix_> I see.
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> Pop up, do a gigapixel pan, autoland on takeoff spot.
[16:17] <spacefelix_> Mmm.
[16:17] <juxta|console> I'm trying to get CHDK running on an a560, but it won't seem to boot - any tips?
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> cameras / laser rangers/ ...
[16:18] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:18] <spacefelix_> Hammer. :P Sorry, I am just a propulsion guy.
[16:19] jasonb (~jasonb@adsl-66-124-73-250.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[16:21] <spacefelix_> My favorite Mad Rocket Scientist Scene: Our shop guy was demonstrating black powder ignition with a hammer, so he was in the shop pounding away at about a gram of the stuff on an anvil.
[16:21] <spacefelix_> Except that it wouldn't ignite. So we pretty much were all 'Okay, we can shake the cans a bit and be fine.'
[16:22] <fsphil> m1x10, fantastic!
[16:22] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[16:27] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:28] <DanielRichman> juxta|console: what have you done so far to try and install CHDK?
[16:30] <juxta|console> DanielRichman: i suspect the issue may actually be this sd card. despite trying it in a few sd readers it's constantly just giving me an invalid partition table
[16:31] <juxta|console> though it works fine in the camera
[16:32] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[16:32] <juxta|console> gah it's 1am
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> No it's not!
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:33] <Randomskk> creeps up on you like that huh
[16:33] <juxta|console> i need to finish getting my payload ready for launch tomorrow, I'm not launching this camera til sunday, I'll sort this out then
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> The internet screws with your timezones.
[16:33] <Randomskk> it's totally 15:33 in the only timezone that matters
[16:33] <Randomskk> we should just all live on UTC
[16:33] <Randomskk> that does of course work very well for me
[16:33] <juxta|console> i hate timezones
[16:33] <Randomskk> and not very well for most people
[16:33] <SpeedEvil> Staying up to 6AM to watch events --
[16:37] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:38] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[16:38] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:43] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[16:44] <spacefelix_> Hello, who else is across the pond here?
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> Depends on your definition.
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> Most of the people here are UK
[16:45] jasonb (~jasonb@m380536d0.tmodns.net) joined #highaltitude.
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> juxta|console: is AU. natrium42 is canadian, and there area couple of US people who I forget
[16:46] <spacefelix_> As in the west side of the pond. ;)
[16:46] <spacefelix_> Ah.
[16:46] <DanielRichman> stilldavid is in the US iirc
[16:46] Action: stilldavid raises hand
[16:46] <spacefelix_> There is a US #highaltitude?
[16:46] <stilldavid> I'm in CO, USA
[16:46] <spacefelix_> Ah, cool.
[16:47] <SpeedEvil> W0OTM: I think too
[16:47] <stilldavid> not that I know of, though there are several groups around
[16:47] <stilldavid> a few mailing lists and such
[16:48] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:48] <spacefelix_> Mmm.
[16:48] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[16:48] <Randomskk> yay I bought a kindle
[16:49] <Upu> how long before it gets pulled apart ?
[16:49] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:49] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[16:50] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:51] Action: spacefelix_ steals Randomskk's kindle and procedes to disintegrate. >D
[16:51] <spacefelix_> Oh, 2 minutes?
[16:52] <Randomskk> I don't plan on pulling it too far apart
[16:53] <Randomskk> I want to load all my datasheets onto its pdf viewer and stuff
[16:53] <Randomskk> also read books
[16:53] Action: Randomskk reads a lot of books
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> I read most books rthese days on the phone.
[16:54] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> fbreader++
[16:54] <Randomskk> I read on my phone a lot
[16:54] <Randomskk> indeed, fbreader is fantastic
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> though it will work less well for PDFs of course.
[16:54] <Randomskk> yea
[16:54] <Randomskk> but I really, really like fbreader for books
[16:54] <Randomskk> especially since I always have my phone on me
[16:55] <Randomskk> the number of times I've used that to spend hours waiting for stuff
[16:55] <Randomskk> once was waiting for someone for like 6 horus
[16:55] <Randomskk> hours*
[16:55] <Randomskk> just read a book, sorted
[16:55] <Randomskk> but, the kindle reader for android seems quite good too, can read all my kindle books-to-be, syncs position and bookmarks with kindle
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: yeah - that's awesome.
[16:57] <Randomskk> but it'l be like, mid september before I get my kindle
[16:57] <Randomskk> still, time enough to take it up to uni
[16:57] <Randomskk> excellent, can't wait
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> What I really want is something like a kindle, but flexy.
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> Or rather - non-breakable.
[16:58] <Randomskk> that would be pretty cool
[16:58] <Randomskk> I ended up getting the case due to worries about how strong the screen is
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> I want to be able to sit on it.
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> And still have it work.
[16:58] <Randomskk> I think I could probably sit on a kindle without much going wrong? maybe not
[16:59] <Randomskk> but certainly in the case I'd expect it to survive
[16:59] <Randomskk> case has a built in light too
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> the display is glass based.
[16:59] <Randomskk> seems very quaint, reminds me of gameboy original/pocket/colour days
[16:59] <Randomskk> having an external light and all that
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> It's basically half of a LCD.
[16:59] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[16:59] <Randomskk> yea but my phone has a glass based LCD and I sit on that
[16:59] jasonb_ (~jasonb@m440536d0.tmodns.net) joined #highaltitude.
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> But the top side of it is a e-ink film, not a LCD panel.
[16:59] <Randomskk> smaller, obviously, and less bending moment when I sit on it
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> A smartphone?
[16:59] <Randomskk> well, it has fbreader...
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> Or rather large screen?
[17:00] <Randomskk> htc hero
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> ah
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> I've never properly sat on the n900
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> I want phones to be like the 3310.
[17:00] <Randomskk> I'm sitting on my hero right now to test
[17:00] juxta|console (~juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[17:00] <Randomskk> but I am on a seat
[17:00] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[17:00] <Randomskk> so it's not that hard really
[17:00] <Randomskk> it's fine, for the record
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> 'Oh - I'm sitting on my phone'. 'That's uncomfortable, I should move'
[17:00] <Randomskk> yea, but that's what I do with my hero
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> Or same with treading on it
[17:00] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[17:01] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[17:01] <Randomskk> ...true, I wouldn't tread on this
[17:02] <Randomskk> but I think the kindle's big enough that I'm less likely to step on it
[17:02] <spacefelix_> i pda.
[17:02] <Randomskk> or sit, for that matter
[17:02] <spacefelix_> Ipad.
[17:02] <Randomskk> ipads are too big and heavy and not powerful enough software wise for me
[17:02] <Randomskk> it's like an ipod touch, but scaled horribly wrong
[17:02] jasonb (~jasonb@m380536d0.tmodns.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
[17:03] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> My 'ideal' platform I think would be something like the n900, with a slightly larger screen.
[17:03] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> But a larger display would be nice in some cases.
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> I wanted to make a e-ink thingy.
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> Take a strip of e-ink.
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> Now, make a 3cm*10cm diameter 'printer' when the e-ink film goes through the middle.
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> you wipe the printer down the page, and it writes it.
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> But you can't get e-ink film easily.
[17:05] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[17:06] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[17:06] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[17:07] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[17:08] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[17:10] fsphil (~phil@beastie.sanslogic.co.uk) left irc: Quit: brb
[17:12] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[17:16] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[17:17] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[17:20] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[17:22] smea (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
[17:26] smealum (~smealum@85-170-63-39.rev.numericable.fr) joined #highaltitude.
[17:38] <m1x10> Apollo 20 Mission!
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> Oooh - sounds fun.
[17:39] <SpeedEvil> I have 2l of kerosene that you can use.
[17:39] <m1x10> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnFJutgjmk8
[17:44] <m1x10> is this a food-for-the-masses case? or is it real ?
[17:44] <m1x10> let me hear your comments
[17:44] <m1x10> :)
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> I can't load youtube ATRM
[17:44] <SpeedEvil> is this that silly floating rocket?
[17:45] <SpeedEvil> 12m high or something
[17:46] <m1x10> lol it shows alien spacecrafts of moon and a human-like ET
[17:46] <m1x10> Apollo 20 mission existed ! see wikipedia.
[17:46] <SpeedEvil> ah
[17:47] <m1x10> the ET looks fake/funny/omg
[17:47] jasonb_ (~jasonb@m440536d0.tmodns.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds
[17:51] <m1x10> http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/images/print/3084_med.jpg
[17:52] <m1x10> if u zoom at this pic, you can see something odd.
[18:09] <Upu> someone remind me GPS active antennas which way is "up" ceramic side up ?
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> yes
[18:11] <Upu> cheers
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> the ceramic side is the dielectric in which the antenna is buried.
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> This has a higher refractive index than the air, so antennas can be lots shorter, but still be 'full sized'.
[18:11] <SpeedEvil> Sort-of.
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> I don't mean refractive index do I.
[18:12] <Upu> just checking I've just managed to fix my prototype, the antenna wasn't getting powered correctly
[18:12] <Upu> but looking good now
[18:15] juxta (juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) joined #highaltitude.
[18:15] <Upu> who do I speak to about getting my payload on the dl-fldigi drop down ?
[18:15] <jonsowman> Upu: you just need an xml
[18:15] <jonsowman> have you got example telemetry?
[18:16] <Upu> UPU : AVA,122,17:15:20,053.7524,-1.8178,268,6,27,21*F787
[18:16] <jonsowman> cool
[18:16] <jonsowman> need your rtty settings too
[18:16] <Upu> 425 50 8 n 1
[18:16] jasonb_ (~jasonb@dsl092-009-225.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #highaltitude.
[18:16] <jonsowman> and frequency?
[18:16] <Upu> 434.072.50
[18:16] <Upu> according to my radio
[18:17] <jonsowman> is it meant to be 434.075
[18:17] <DanielRichman> is the radio in lsb mode?
[18:17] <Upu> USB
[18:17] <Upu> that's what I have to tune too to get the strongest signal
[18:17] <Upu> it's a NTX2 434.075
[18:17] <jonsowman> call,ticks,time,lat,lon,alt,sats,temp1,temp2
[18:17] <jonsowman> correct?
[18:17] <DanielRichman> the frequency field is noncritical though
[18:17] <Upu> correct
[18:18] <jonsowman> ok give me a couple of mins Upu
[18:18] <Upu> thanks
[18:20] juxta (juxta@ppp203-122-193-94.static.internode.on.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[18:22] <Upu> afk a few
[18:25] <jonsowman> Upu: done
[18:27] <Upu> thank you
[18:27] <Randomskk> reminds me, we still need payload xml generating js
[18:29] MrCraig (~Craig@cpc2-craw3-0-0-cust571.croy.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:29] <MrCraig> evening all
[18:30] <jonsowman> Randomskk: was thinking that
[18:30] <jonsowman> tedious doing it like this
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> m1x10: A scratch on the emulsion.
[18:34] <jonsowman> gpgga.xml*
[18:34] <jonsowman> hehe
[18:34] <jonsowman> looking good Upu
[18:34] <jonsowman> :)
[18:36] <Upu> not looking bad that is it ? :)
[18:36] <jonsowman> not at all
[18:36] <jonsowman> :)
[18:43] DrLuke (~luke@pD951B56C.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[18:45] DrLuke (~luke@pD951B56C.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Client Quit
[19:05] <jonsowman> Rate: -1204.4 m/s
[19:06] <jonsowman> that's gonna hurt
[19:10] <Upu> that mine ?
[19:10] <Upu> I was just testing it unteathered on batteries
[19:11] <jonsowman> heh yeh look at the altitude graph
[19:12] <Upu> wheres the graph ?
[19:13] <jonsowman> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[19:13] <jonsowman> bottom of page
[19:13] <Upu> oh I'm live :)
[19:13] <jonsowman> you are indeed
[19:13] <Upu> Very nice :)
[19:14] <Upu> if I can make that altitude I'm doing well
[19:14] <jonsowman> haha
[19:15] <Upu> I'll stop running in HAB mode for testing
[19:15] <Upu> :)
[19:17] <m1x10> SpeedEvil what?
[19:20] <jonsowman> Upu: it's not an issue, the data can be wiped off the tracker easily enough
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> m1x10: what?
[19:21] <m1x10> lol
[19:21] <m1x10> [20:33] <SpeedEvil> m1x10: A scratch on the emulsion.
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> Upu: Oooh!
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> Upu: Get sponsorship from gillette - Mach 3.
[19:21] <jonsowman> heh
[19:21] <SpeedEvil> m1x10: with regards to the blobby trail on the pic
[19:22] <m1x10> no SpeedEvil
[19:22] <m1x10> this trail is from the film
[19:22] <m1x10> let me guide u
[19:22] <alikins> nice tracker
[19:23] <m1x10> SpeedEvil, the trail ends on moon surface. right?
[19:23] <SpeedEvil> m1x10: no
[19:23] <SpeedEvil> m1x10: It continues
[19:23] <m1x10> yeah but its not so obvious
[19:23] <SpeedEvil> You can clearly see black 'dots'
[19:23] <m1x10> yeah
[19:24] <m1x10> but zoom out
[19:24] <m1x10> and go to the spot that this trail crosses the surface
[19:24] <m1x10> that little corner
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> So?
[19:24] <m1x10> got me?
[19:24] <m1x10> ok zoom there
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> The emulsion is physically smeared around.
[19:25] DrLuke (~luke@pD951B56C.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[19:25] <m1x10> zoom many times
[19:25] <m1x10> now
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> 'pixels' move from one place to the other.
[19:25] <m1x10> ok
[19:25] <m1x10> but
[19:25] <m1x10> zoom more
[19:25] <m1x10> and go down
[19:25] <m1x10> half finger
[19:25] <m1x10> from the corner
[19:26] <m1x10> but stay on surface
[19:26] <m1x10> do u see the "thing" ?
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> There are about 6 or more different distortions on that pic.
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> You'vre got jpeg compression, film artifacts, as well as horizontal and vertical banding.
[19:27] <m1x10> ok let me cut the image and show u
[19:28] <SpeedEvil> And also artifacts from the camera.
[19:28] SpikeUK (~chatzilla@host86-162-112-42.range86-162.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:28] <m1x10> yeah not that ones
[19:28] <m1x10> you will understand me wiat
[19:28] <m1x10> wait
[19:29] <SpeedEvil> Oh - and stitching artifacts too
[19:29] <m1x10> waittttt
[19:29] <m1x10> i want to be sure we talk about the same thing
[19:30] <m1x10> http://imagebin.org/111658
[19:31] <m1x10> too big to be a film artifact at that position at that direction
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> OMG! yes!
[19:32] <m1x10> :)
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> It's a 200km tall elvis!
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> Why diddn't I see that.
[19:32] <SpeedEvil> You can see the rhinestones, and his burger.
[19:32] <m1x10> the image is taken 50km altitude
[19:32] <m1x10> that thing is high
[19:33] <m1x10> lol
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> If you look carefully.
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> You will see that in the background is a hexagonal grid of 'stars'.
[19:33] <m1x10> yes thats everywhere
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> That is in about the right place to be another.
[19:33] <m1x10> its from camera sure
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> To claim that, you would need to work out what the camera was.
[19:34] <m1x10> yeah there is a white spot exactly above the thing
[19:34] <m1x10> but the thing
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> I suspect this is a composite of images recorded on film, transmitted by radio.
[19:34] <m1x10> zoom more and turn the picture 180
[19:35] <m1x10> so u look upside down
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> I see nothing special. It's a poor image.
[19:35] <m1x10> lol no man!
[19:36] <m1x10> http://imagebin.org/111659
[19:36] <m1x10> white spot ok from camera
[19:36] <m1x10> the other thing
[19:36] <m1x10> ?
[19:37] <m1x10> thats raw image
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> To conclude anything, you need to work out how the image was taken.
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> What sort of camera.
[19:37] <SpeedEvil> Did it start out on an image orthicon, or a film plate.
[19:37] <m1x10> SpeedEvil i dont know those things u say
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> Could that be a telemetry or sync pulse synchronised on the image.
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> As explains the hexagonal 'stars'
[19:38] <m1x10> yeah but they are many and have shape
[19:38] <SpeedEvil> There are major defects on the image.
[19:38] <m1x10> that thing is alone
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> You need to work out what is causing those, and what else it may cause.
[19:39] <m1x10> ok
[19:39] <m1x10> but what do think?
[19:39] <m1x10> its a camera artifact?
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> I think it's some form of distortion on the image.
[19:39] <m1x10> like this?
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> I hesitate to call it a camera artifact, as it may not be one, but an artifact of the way the image was transmitted or processed.
[19:40] <m1x10> ok u try to be very realistic
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> Find other earlier or later pics of the same area.
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> See if you can find similar artifacts.
[19:41] <m1x10> http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/frame/?3084
[19:41] <m1x10> whole gal: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/mission/?3
[19:43] <m1x10> http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/images/print/3085_med.jpg
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> I'm sorry, I'm deeply uninrterested in looking at bad pictures of the moon.
[19:43] <m1x10> hahah
[19:43] <m1x10> ok
[19:43] <m1x10> just i wanted to hear some critics
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> Go and read up on the exact camera and transmission system.
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> Work out the format of the images as transmitted.
[19:44] <SpeedEvil> This may lead to artifacts - such as the hexagonal stars
[19:44] <m1x10> and that tall stick ?
[19:45] <m1x10> one thing is sure! the truth is out there !
[19:45] <SpeedEvil> It is an artifact that is smaller than some others in the image. Sure - it's a different colour than most.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> But the film is already damaged.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> Along with the other issues.
[19:46] <SpeedEvil> See if there are overlaps of that area with other coverage from lro3 or 2 or 1
[19:46] <m1x10> I believe its a alien HAM antenna !!!
[19:48] <m1x10> can we send a balloon to the moon ?
[19:49] <m1x10> when balloon bursts, we can remotely launch a attached rocket :)
[19:49] <m1x10> an*
[19:49] <m1x10> that would speed up
[19:49] <m1x10> haha
[19:49] <m1x10> :)
[19:50] <m1x10>  SpeedEvil laughts at m1x10 right now "
[19:50] <m1x10> :):)
[19:51] <m1x10> maybe others too :):):)
[19:51] <m1x10> but away from fun now
[19:52] <m1x10> if we stick a rocket on the payload
[19:52] <m1x10> and when it burst it automatically launches
[19:52] <m1x10> it can reach an awesome height
[19:52] <m1x10> dont know if its illegal though
[19:53] <m1x10> is any possibilty to reach a satellite altitude?
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> You can launch a satellite from a balloon. but it's hard.
[19:54] <m1x10> no
[19:54] <m1x10> u dont get me
[19:54] <m1x10> i dont want to reach a satellite alt
[19:55] <m1x10> just to be sure that after rocket launch it wont reach the lowest sat alt
[19:55] <m1x10> so to hit it
[19:55] <m1x10> and then go to jail
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> Do the ballistics and drag calculations.
[19:56] <m1x10> hehe
[19:56] <m1x10> we should find someone expert on that
[19:58] <m1x10> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Orbitalaltitudes.jpg
[19:59] <m1x10> omg
[19:59] <m1x10> gps sats are at 20.000km !!!
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[20:00] <m1x10> man thats far
[20:08] SpikeUK_ (~chatzilla@host86-161-154-126.range86-161.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[20:09] SpikeUK (~chatzilla@host86-162-112-42.range86-162.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[20:09] Nick change: SpikeUK_ -> SpikeUK
[20:10] jshriver (~jshriver@cblmdm24-53-177-197.buckeyecom.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:18] <Randomskk> ugh, back. allow leaving work at 8pm
[20:19] <Randomskk> on the plus side, it turns out my work are farnell's supplier for all of olimex's stuff
[20:19] <Randomskk> so they have cupboards full of olimex dev boards
[20:19] <SpeedEvil> neat
[20:20] <Randomskk> sadly I found out because today was one of the days they sent them off to farnell
[20:20] <Randomskk> so the cupboard was pretty bare
[20:20] <Randomskk> but I still got my hands on an stm32-103STK board to toy with
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> neat
[20:22] <SpeedEvil> I have a stm32103 here
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> but it's not soldered to anyrthing
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> though I also have a STM primer
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> the circular one
[20:23] <Randomskk> I have three of my own stm32f103 dev boards
[20:23] <Randomskk> though this olimex one has a 2.4ghz nordic radio, an lcd, audio in/out, buttons, other stuff
[20:23] <SpeedEvil> neat.
[20:33] jcoxon (~jcoxon@nat67.mia.three.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[20:42] Hualon (~Hualon@152.16.144.213) joined #highaltitude.
[20:44] spacefelix_ (809e01a4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.158.1.164) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[20:45] spacefelix (809ecabb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.158.202.187) joined #highaltitude.
[20:45] <jcoxon> evening all
[20:45] <DanielRichman> evening
[20:45] <spacefelix> Good afternoon!!!
[20:45] Action: jcoxon has finished the hardest week of his life
[20:45] Action: spacefelix hands out rounds of beer.
[20:46] <jcoxon> hehe
[20:46] <jcoxon> thanks!
[20:46] <jcoxon> right time to move zeusbot to habhub
[20:46] Action: spacefelix bounces off of walls.
[20:46] <DanielRichman> jcoxon: does zeusbot run in a screen session?
[20:47] fsphil (~fsphil@82.132.248.221) joined #highaltitude.
[20:47] <jcoxon> eggdrop daemon
[20:47] <DanielRichman> so you can run a command and it forks?
[20:47] <DanielRichman> eww tcl install
[20:47] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:47] <fsphil> mmm eggdrop
[20:47] <jonsowman> yum?
[20:47] <DanielRichman> jcoxon: ok so we can create an account w/o ssh or sudo access for it to run in?
[20:47] <jonsowman> doesn't sound that appetising, I'll be honest
[20:47] <jcoxon> yeah i guess so
[20:48] m1x10 (m1x10@ppp089210187222.dsl.hol.gr) left irc: Quit: I eat electrons for breakfast and I vomit thunders
[20:48] Action: spacefelix puts eggs in balloon so when it bursts, I will have acheieved the highest eggdrop record, or just a rainstorm of egg drop soup.
[20:48] <DanielRichman> jcoxon:
[20:48] <DanielRichman> $ sudo -iu zeusbot
[20:49] <DanielRichman> from your account
[20:49] <fsphil> frozen eggy -- or would it have melted by the time it lands... hmmm
[20:49] <DanielRichman> put it next to the camera; boiled eggy
[20:50] <jcoxon> can i just apt-get install eggdrop
[20:50] <jcoxon> ?
[20:50] <DanielRichman> aptitude
[20:50] <DanielRichman> yes
[20:52] <DanielRichman> we could probably rig zeusbot to start automatically after a system reboot
[20:54] MrCraig (~Craig@cpc2-craw3-0-0-cust571.croy.cable.virginmedia.com) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[20:55] SpikeUK (~chatzilla@host86-161-154-126.range86-161.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[20:56] fsphil (~fsphil@82.132.248.221) left irc: Quit: battery fail
[20:59] <jcoxon> ooop juxta launch later isn't there
[21:01] <DanielRichman> jcoxon: The topic is a bit old
[21:01] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jcoxon' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[21:14] zeusbot1 (~zeusbot@nessie.habhub.org) joined #highaltitude.
[21:14] Laurenceb (~laurence@host86-137-224-95.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[21:14] <Laurenceb> hi
[21:15] <jcoxon> evening Laurenceb
[21:15] <Randomskk> yo
[21:15] Action: Laurenceb is working on direct image -> gerber in python
[21:15] <Laurenceb> i'm mad arent i ?
[21:16] <Randomskk> yes
[21:16] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, nothing has changed - don't worry you've always been mad
[21:16] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: kicad is very cool
[21:16] <Laurenceb> heh
[21:16] <Laurenceb> definitely prefer it to geda
[21:16] <Randomskk> yea
[21:17] <Randomskk> it seems really quite okay
[21:17] <Laurenceb> but... bitmap2kicad doesnt actually exist
[21:17] <Randomskk> I see
[21:17] <Randomskk> that is unfortunate
[21:17] <Laurenceb> there is a tool called JavE or something
[21:17] <Laurenceb> but its the same rectangle technique as eagle
[21:18] <Laurenceb> apparently there will be a image2module for kicad in the next release, but it will also use a rectangle technique
[21:18] Hualon (~Hualon@152.16.144.213) left irc: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]
[21:18] <Laurenceb> hence my script, as its based on raster to vector conversion
[21:19] <Laurenceb> also extremely useful for other stuff - eg laser cut parts
[21:19] <Laurenceb> so thats why im bothering, as none else appears to have made this work
[21:19] <Laurenceb> apart from cadstar
[21:20] <Laurenceb> so far ive got it importing images using PIL and converting to polygons, just need to do the really tricky bit of reducing the polygons in size to account for the line width
[21:21] <Laurenceb> then a script to splice it into an existing gerber... or maybe include it as a macro
[21:21] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: have ryou looked at the wi-spy?
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> cc2500 based AIUI
[21:22] <Laurenceb> oh wow
[21:22] <Laurenceb> oh noes
[21:22] <Laurenceb> maybe they stole my idea
[21:22] <Laurenceb> always happens when i have good ideas :(
[21:22] <jcoxon> hehe $sl
[21:23] <Laurenceb> very cool tho... but that would be as it was my idea of course :P
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> Well - it is a couple of years old. :)
[21:24] <Laurenceb> doh
[21:25] <Laurenceb> ooh 900mhz
[21:25] <Laurenceb> could be useful for hab
[21:25] <Laurenceb> in the states at least
[21:27] zeusbot1 (~zeusbot@nessie.habhub.org) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[21:28] zeusbot1 (~zeusbot@nessie.habhub.org) joined #highaltitude.
[21:28] <Laurenceb> specs match what youd expect with the chipcon register sampling over spi technique
[21:29] <Laurenceb> must have a silabs 8051 usb micro or something in there as well
[21:30] Simon-MPFH (~simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[21:32] <Laurenceb> actually i cant see the actual product that does 900mhz
[21:32] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, ping
[21:32] <DanielRichman> hi
[21:32] <jcoxon> so got zeusbot working again
[21:33] <Laurenceb> oh the 900x
[21:33] <jcoxon> was hoping to get the log files to be shown on the webserver
[21:33] <zeusbot1> DanielRichman, jcoxon is right here!
[21:33] <DanielRichman> jcoxon: are they world readable?
[21:33] <jcoxon> well my thinking was to get it to log them to /var/www/default/zeusbot
[21:34] <jcoxon> what should i do about permissions etc for the file zeusbot
[21:34] <DanielRichman> we'll symlink /var/www/default/zeusbot to ~zeusbot/logs
[21:34] <DanielRichman> does that sound oK?
[21:34] <jcoxon> yeah perfect
[21:34] <DanielRichman> the files need to be readable by www-data but there's nothing special in them so 644 is fine
[21:34] <DanielRichman> owned by zeusbot
[21:35] <DanielRichman> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 19 2010-08-27 20:34 /var/www/default/zeusbot -> /home/zeusbot/logs/
[21:36] <DanielRichman> jcoxon: cherokee caches not only file contents but directory listings. IF you create new files in ~zeusbot/logs then they might not show up in the listing for a little while (I think it's about 5mins but don't know), likewise for changes to the files themselves. If this isn't ok we can disable caching in that dir.
[21:37] <jcoxon> looks okay right now
[21:37] <jcoxon> 5min delay is fine
[21:37] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: would prob require firmware hack to be usable
[21:38] zeusbot1 (~zeusbot@nessie.habhub.org) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[21:39] zeusbot1 (~zeusbot@nessie.habhub.org) joined #highaltitude.
[21:42] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jcoxon!jcoxon@nat67.mia.three.co.uk: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk, 28/29 Aug Big Launch Weekend! US + Aus http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[21:52] jcoxon (~jcoxon@nat67.mia.three.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[21:53] jasonb_ (~jasonb@dsl092-009-225.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[21:53] jasonb (~jasonb@dsl092-009-225.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #highaltitude.
[22:27] <natrium42> cool, so many launches coming up
[22:27] Hualon (~Hualon@152.16.144.213) joined #highaltitude.
[22:28] <Upu> I don't think this is particularly flight worthy but I'm proud of it none the less :) http://ava.upuaut.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/IMG_7149.jpg
[22:28] <natrium42> cool
[22:28] <natrium42> does it work?
[22:29] <Upu> sure does
[22:29] <natrium42> even better
[22:29] <Upu> UPU : AVA,11,17:48:45,053.7533,-1.8188,65488,3,26,25*FF33
[22:29] <Upu> etc
[22:29] <natrium42> :)
[22:29] <shauno> I could never manage to make things tidy on a breadboard. just never seems to work for me
[22:30] <Upu> well to be honest it was a total mess and the GPS wasn't working
[22:30] <SpeedEvil> To make it flight-worthy - pour 1l of epoxy on top.
[22:30] <Upu> so I rewired it to get to the bottom of it
[22:30] <Upu> lol yeah good plan SpeedEvil :)
[22:30] Action: natrium42 pours epoxy on top of SpeedEvil
[22:31] <natrium42> now you have the right stuff!
[22:31] <shauno> I'm jealous you were clever enough to get the gps on a breakout, tho. I never did managed to wire mine to anything
[22:31] <Upu> note the dodgy repair on the GPS
[22:31] <Upu> its an odd size doesn't fit any normal break outs/breadboard so had to get a PCB made for it
[22:31] <Upu> or pay inventek $700 for a break out ....
[22:33] <Upu> I've posted some breakouts to a chap in india doing this and someone in the US
[22:33] <Upu> don't know if there are here but if you are hi :)
[22:51] Hualon (~Hualon@152.16.144.213) left irc: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]
[23:27] N4XWC (438e8224@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.142.130.36) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[23:28] Laurenceb (~laurence@host86-137-224-95.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[23:56] Upu (~Upu@ubn.upuaut.net) left irc:
[00:00] --- Sat Aug 28 2010