highaltitude.log.20100824

[00:00] <Dan-K2VOL> I just got some boards back from them
[00:00] <Dan-K2VOL> came out pretty nice
[00:00] <Laurenceb> also according to #electronics they do about 14 boards
[00:00] <Laurenceb> and chuck any bad ones
[00:01] <Randomskk> yea
[00:01] <Randomskk> sometimes more
[00:01] <Randomskk> I've had 20 good boards come back once
[00:01] <Randomskk> usually about 10, about half e-tested
[00:02] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: so about £35k to buy everything on their list by itself in single unit
[00:02] <Laurenceb> nice
[00:02] <Laurenceb> bbl
[00:02] <Randomskk> but the price doesn't reflect the utility imho; the PTH machine is 5k while the board driver is 3k and the PCB brush cleaner 7k
[00:03] <Randomskk> I reckon you could do the essentials in... say 7k
[00:03] <Randomskk> assuming you already have a dremel on a drill stand, a box to etch in, a laser printer
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[00:17] <Randomskk> blimey. kicad's autorouter isn't even that shocking. not fantastic though
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[00:22] <Laurenceb> ill give it a go then
[00:22] <Laurenceb> gtg, cya
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[00:32] <Dan-K2VOL> anyone from UKHAS around?
[00:34] <SpeedEvil> Define ukhas.
[00:35] <SpeedEvil> If you're looking for someone to arrest, then there is never anyone around.
[00:35] <Dan-K2VOL> har har
[00:35] <SpeedEvil> If you're looking for random balloon related info, that's more common
[00:35] <Dan-K2VOL> no I think I found some spam in the wiki
[00:35] <SpeedEvil> ah
[00:35] <SpeedEvil> think, or blatantly obvious?
[00:36] <Dan-K2VOL> http://spacenear.us/wiki/doku.php?id=start
[00:36] <Dan-K2VOL> right at the top it suggests that you visit Poker Francais
[00:36] <Dan-K2VOL> unless that's a sponsor :-)
[00:36] <SpeedEvil> Well - it's a wiki
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> Making an account is easy
[00:37] <Dan-K2VOL> just letting you guys know in case you'd like to remove it
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> http://ukhas.org.uk/
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> also - I'm not sure what the other one is - I suspect a very old version
[00:38] <Dan-K2VOL> hmm reallu
[00:38] <SpeedEvil> Where did you find the link to the other?
[00:39] <Dan-K2VOL> good question, I was looking for info on the halo progress, and stumbled across it
[00:39] <SpeedEvil> Ah - the mysteries of pagerank.
[00:40] <Dan-K2VOL> where is the atlantic halo page anyway
[00:41] <Dan-K2VOL> I still can't see a logical link for it on the Projects page
[00:41] <Dan-K2VOL> is it the one under Canada?
[00:42] <Dan-K2VOL> gtg ttyl
[00:42] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right
[00:43] <SpeedEvil> thatr's a completely seperate wiki
[00:43] <SpeedEvil> I was confused. :)
[00:43] <SpeedEvil> I'll point the owner at the spam
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[02:10] <pschulz01> Good luck guys..
[02:11] <natrium42> with?
[02:12] <pschulz01> Horas Launch today..
[02:12] <pschulz01> horus
[02:24] <juxta_> hey natrium42
[02:24] <juxta_> is it possible to have the dynamic predictor on? weather conditions are very hairy
[02:25] <juxta_> (cheers pschulz01) :)
[02:50] <pschulz01> juxta_: Which flight computer is the ballon using? new one?
[02:59] <juxta_> no, a flight computer by the sydney uni team
[02:59] <juxta_> well, a collab :)
[03:06] <pschulz01> Ok.. but it will be tracked?
[03:06] <juxta_> yep
[03:06] <juxta_> launch will be shortly
[03:06] <juxta_> say half an hour
[03:07] <pschulz01> Thanks.. I'm looking forward to it :-)
[03:07] <juxta_> it's buckleting down here
[03:07] <juxta_> the rain is super heavy
[03:07] <juxta_> bucketing even
[03:07] <pschulz01> Can;t see the hills from the CBD.
[03:08] <pschulz01> Is it mainly the wind that would determine go/no go?
[03:10] <juxta_> pretty much
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[03:10] <juxta_> but we're launching either way
[03:21] <natrium42> juxta_, ooh, sure
[03:36] <juxta_> cheers natrium42!
[03:39] <natrium42> juxta_, what are launch lat/lon?
[03:39] <natrium42> and estimated ascent/descent/burst?
[03:40] <juxta_> natrium42: launch lat and lon are what chase-vk5vzi is at now
[03:40] <juxta_> ascent should be 5.5
[03:40] <juxta_> descent about 15
[03:40] <juxta_> very fast
[03:40] <juxta_> burst 31000
[03:41] <natrium42> cheers
[03:41] <natrium42> are times in UTC?
[04:08] <natrium42> juxta_, descent is pretty fast
[04:10] <juxta_> natrium42, yes
[04:10] <juxta_> however
[04:10] <juxta_> this is not my payload, i'm just helping witgh launch
[04:10] <juxta_> and the gps seems to have failed
[04:10] <juxta_> we have a backup module though
[04:10] <juxta_> on a different system
[04:21] <natrium42> ah
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[06:39] <pschulz01> \who
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[07:36] <pschulz01> How's Pinnaroo?
[07:37] <pschulz01> juxta: How's Pinnarroo?
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[08:28] <m1x10> morning all
[08:31] <fsphil> morning m1x10, how's things?
[08:31] <Upu> morning
[08:31] <m1x10> hello fsphil, still coding the backup module. Some last debugging. And you ?
[08:35] <m1x10> ping Randomskk
[08:38] <fsphil> still coding the primary module :)
[08:39] <m1x10> \o/
[08:39] <m1x10> and what is that?
[08:40] <fsphil> it's a basic tracker but with live images
[08:41] <m1x10> aaahhhhhhh
[08:41] <m1x10> Im planning this for the 2nd mission :):)
[08:41] <m1x10> RTTY?
[08:41] <fsphil> yes, at 300 baud
[08:41] <m1x10> oh
[08:41] <m1x10> slow?
[08:42] <fsphil> for tracking is really fast, a single line only takes less than a second to transmit
[08:42] <m1x10> I suppose the picture is going to be very small
[08:42] <fsphil> but for images it's about 4/5 minutes each
[08:42] <fsphil> 320x240
[08:42] <m1x10> yeah
[08:42] <m1x10> cool
[08:43] <fsphil> I'm sure faster baud rates could be used, but not with fldigi
[08:43] <m1x10> aa! you did that the last time with the corrupted images?
[08:43] <fsphil> yep!
[08:43] <m1x10> and how about the problem solving?
[08:43] <m1x10> did u solve any issues? or just a 2nd try?
[08:45] <fsphil> I changed the way it sends the image, should be able to handle bad spots
[08:46] <fsphil> in theory
[08:46] <m1x10> can RTTY work at higher rates?
[08:50] <m1x10> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioteletype
[08:50] <m1x10> :)
[08:50] <fsphil> I got it up to 600 baud with fldigi, but I expect it can work faster with better radios and decoders
[08:50] <fsphil> the faster it is, the more bandwidth it uses
[08:50] <m1x10> There is an audio example in wikipedia
[08:50] <m1x10> funny
[08:53] <fsphil> there are lots of modes, some samples here: http://kb9ukd.com/digital/
[08:55] <Upu> can you not run dual transmitters one doing telemetry one doing pictures ?
[08:55] <fsphil> the telemetry doesn't take up much space
[08:56] <m1x10> I remember I had some 5ghz wifi links at 60km distance. 32-48mbps bandwidth. Could 80211a be a fansy idea to start playing with it?
[08:56] <fsphil> and means I'd need double the radios
[08:57] <fsphil> m1x10, both sides probably had yagi antennas for that to work
[08:57] <fsphil> ?
[08:58] <m1x10> actually I had parabolic dishes :)
[08:58] <m1x10> heavy stuff on my rooftop :)
[08:59] <m1x10> propagation at that frequency on big heights may be an issue
[09:00] <fsphil> you'd need a big dish on the balloon, and something to aim it :)
[09:00] <m1x10> yeah
[09:00] <m1x10> impossible for habing
[09:00] <fsphil> be great to have a megabit link though :) could do real-time video
[09:00] <m1x10> hehe
[09:01] <m1x10> we used to have a whole ipv4 network over the city through wifi
[09:01] <m1x10> was real fun
[09:01] <m1x10> instead of going to university we were playing games
[09:02] <m1x10> or fixing some broken router
[09:03] <fsphil> we've a small wireless network around this town, not huge range though
[09:03] <fsphil> 1km is the most distant I've connected
[09:06] <fsphil> that was on 2.4ghz
[09:10] <m1x10> thats tiny :)
[09:10] <m1x10> In athens they got the biggest in greece. They have links with the islands
[09:10] <m1x10> more than 3000 members
[09:11] <m1x10> http://www.awmn.net/
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[09:18] <fsphil> nice
[09:18] <fsphil> my town is too small for anything like that :)
[09:19] <m1x10> hhe
[09:19] <m1x10> where do u live?
[09:19] <Randomskk> DanielRichman, sbasuita: good luck with results :o
[09:20] <fsphil> m1x10, little town called Cookstown
[09:21] <fsphil> ooh yes, results today
[09:21] <m1x10> nothern ireland !
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[09:22] <fsphil> aye, right in the middle
[09:23] <m1x10> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26776447
[09:24] <m1x10> :)
[09:24] <m1x10> looks lovely
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[09:25] <fsphil> it's not bad overall
[09:28] <fsphil> got some lakes nearby, and a small mountain about 10km to the north. nice terrain to walk around
[09:29] <m1x10> I guest its a cold place in winter
[09:31] <fsphil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb1PtDw_xvI :)
[09:36] <m1x10> oh the ducks cannot feel the icy water !
[09:37] <fsphil> it didn't bother them at all
[09:37] <m1x10> yeah crazy
[09:37] <fsphil> that's pretty unusual weather, it's not normally as cold here
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[09:46] <m1x10> :)
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[09:59] <rharrison> Morning all
[09:59] <m1x10> yo :0
[09:59] <m1x10> :)
[10:08] <fsphil> morning!
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[11:12] <cuddykid> Hi all, has any progress been made on the iphone tracker app?! I heard something on here about it the other day but didn't catch whether it actually materialised or not! I think it would be a great idea
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[12:12] <rharrison> Hi fsphil m1x10 soory bit slow this morning
[12:52] <juxta> hi all
[12:53] <fsphil> hiya juxta, how'd things go earlier?
[12:54] <juxta> got the payload back :)
[12:54] <juxta> (despite the GPS module on it failing)
[12:54] <juxta> was a bit of a drive as expected - payload hit approx 230km/h in the wind
[12:54] <fsphil> great news! was a bit worried when I didn't see any tracks on spacenear.us
[12:54] <fsphil> woo
[12:55] <juxta> yeah - we were tracking using a backup system
[12:55] <m1x10> hehe backup forever !
[12:55] <m1x10> hi juxta
[12:55] <juxta> hey m1x10
[12:55] <m1x10> i sew you changed some of the stuff for ubx00
[12:56] <juxta> yeah I tidied the page up in general, and put up a library to parse it
[12:56] <m1x10> but you removed the thing i was telling about solving the buffer issues with software serial
[12:56] <juxta> did I?
[12:56] <m1x10> I humbly believe that you should mention that
[12:57] <juxta> I thought I reworded it elsewhere
[12:57] <m1x10> hmm
[12:57] <m1x10> "If you're using a software serial port to your GPS module, this is likely to be very useful."
[12:57] <m1x10> this ?
[12:57] <juxta> oh right - will fix it later on
[12:57] <juxta> or you can :)
[12:57] <m1x10> no u do it. you write better eng :)
[12:58] <m1x10> mine are not that official
[12:59] <m1x10> But you can wait for habhub.org and write everything there :)
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[14:03] <fsphil> Other than rtty and dominoex, what other digital modes have been used in the air?
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[16:18] <rharrison> fsphil, I have flowen CW
[16:20] <fsphil> ah how could I forget about CW
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[16:43] <rharrison> fsphil, it's not that good and it drives you nuts listening to it for 4 hours :)
[16:43] <rharrison> rtty and domino rock
[16:57] <fsphil> I wonder how fast domino can be made without causing problems
[17:01] <W0OTM> New iHAB-1 flightpath prediction is posted @ http://www.w0otm.com/iHAB. Looks like its moved further north closer to Williamsburg, Iowa. Launch is still a go for 1500Z (10AM CDT)
[17:01] <W0OTM> 8/28
[17:03] <SpeedEvil> Good luck!
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> Looks fairly simple.
[17:04] <SpeedEvil> Hopefully that means little to go wrong.
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[17:31] <LA3QMA> W0OTM: nice photos
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[18:41] <rharrison> ping Randomskk
[18:41] <rharrison> hum
[18:41] <rharrison> home time
[18:41] <Upu> o7
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[18:44] <sbasuita> Randomskk: cheers, they went well :)
[18:45] <gb73d> test
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[18:55] <gb73d> elo balooners
[18:57] <Randomskk> back
[18:57] <Randomskk> sbasuita: sweet, glad to hear it :D
[18:57] <Randomskk> how did you guys all do?
[18:58] <Upu> UPU : AVA,9,17:57:48,053.7525,-1.8179,265,7,25,25*F4A3
[18:58] <Upu> Yay :)
[18:58] <fsphil> woo!
[18:58] <Upu> I really like the sound of RTTY :)
[18:59] <fsphil> lol, it's very re-assuring
[18:59] <sbasuita> Randomskk: i got all a* apart from a in english lit (gutted cause i aced the coursework) and b in rs (epic cause i thought i failed the exam :P)
[18:59] <fsphil> right now I'm listening to a speeded up version of dominoex -- it's a bit mental
[18:59] <Randomskk> haha english lit
[18:59] Action: Randomskk failed on that too
[18:59] <Randomskk> well by failed I mean got a B
[18:59] <Upu> I passed english lit some how
[18:59] <sbasuita> hehe
[18:59] <Randomskk> same mark as I got for design & technology systems and control
[18:59] <fsphil> I failed English, twice :p
[18:59] <Randomskk> which is ironic given as that's now basically my masters degree
[18:59] <Upu> Even though I'm from Yorkshire and speak funny
[19:00] <Randomskk> still, solid marks, good job
[19:00] <Upu> yeah
[19:00] <Randomskk> (in my defense, the B in DT was because the bastards marked all our courseworks down so much none of us could get an A* and we'd need full marks in the exam to scrape an A, all based on the one coursework submitted to them)
[19:01] <Randomskk> I think they just got annoyed at my taking the piss and not doing a serious essay on to kill a mockingbird at all
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> Why?
[19:01] <Randomskk> A* in eng lang
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> that is - DT
[19:01] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: the courseworks are marked by the teacher
[19:01] <Randomskk> occasionally one or more is selected at random by the board and asked to be sent in for evaluation
[19:01] <Randomskk> they then decide how good the mark was and apply the delta to all courseworks from that teacher that year
[19:02] <Randomskk> so in this case our teacher had marked that person's coursework too highly, so we all lost a /lot/ of points
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> Ah.
[19:02] <Randomskk> like, I know my DT, and my coursework and exam were both pretty acceptable
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> In principle can you appeal?
[19:02] <Randomskk> in principle
[19:02] <Randomskk> but they tried, hard, and got nowhere
[19:02] <SpeedEvil> But - yes.
[19:03] <Randomskk> but anyway I made up for it, got 100% on all the AS an A level written exams, 100% on two out of three courseworks, dropped 12 marks out of 600 in the end
[19:03] <Randomskk> that showed them
[19:04] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:05] <Randomskk> (and now I'm doing engineering for a degree, so...)
[19:05] <Randomskk> apparently some kids at my old school got 11 A*s
[19:05] <Randomskk> silly GCSEs
[19:05] <Randomskk> anyway dinner, bbl
[19:13] <Upu> where in DL-fldigi do i control where it uploads too ? Say I wanted to upload to my tracker http://ava.upuaut.net/tracker ?
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[19:25] <fsphil> you can't yet, without modifying the source
[19:25] <fsphil> but adding a textbox to change it is on the todo list
[19:28] <Upu> ok
[19:28] <Upu> well it's uploading to Robs server by the looks of it
[19:28] <Upu> afk food
[19:29] <fsphil> if you want to modify it, the urls are in src/misc/dl_fldigi.cxx
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[19:34] <dutch-mill> hi
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[19:37] <dutch-mill_> hi
[19:38] <fsphil> hiya dutch-mill
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[19:46] <jonsowman> ping juxta
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[21:39] <fsphil> another active ISS pass .. man I don't hear anything for ages and now I heard them three nights in a row
[21:40] <fsphil> tried calling but he didn't hear me
[21:40] <Randomskk> D:
[21:40] <Randomskk> I didn't hear anything
[21:40] <m1x10> awesome !
[21:40] <Randomskk> well I heard voices for a second or two but not long enough to make out works
[21:40] <Randomskk> words*
[21:40] <Randomskk> then it dropped and nothing else
[21:40] <Randomskk> was it dead on frequency .800?
[21:40] <fsphil> yea, I don't bother re-tuning
[21:40] <Randomskk> need a better antenna I guess :P
[21:41] <fsphil> well he didn't hear me, so I guess I do too :)
[21:41] <Randomskk> :P
[21:41] <m1x10> how can i know when ISS passes over me ?
[21:41] <Randomskk> shame I only get 35W transmit on 2m, compared to 100W on HF
[21:41] <Randomskk> m1x10: heavens-above.com
[21:42] Action: LazyLeopard didn't hear activity last night, but did just now.
[21:42] <fsphil> I'm only tx'ing with 5 watts, that might have something to do with it too
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[21:42] <fsphil> it was packet last night, slightly higher frequency
[21:42] <LazyLeopard> What sort of antenna?
[21:42] <LazyLeopard> Ah. Yeah, I've not been listening for packet...
[21:43] <fsphil> I've got this one -> http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1054
[21:43] <fsphil> totally the wrong antenna for satellite stuff
[21:43] <Randomskk> I have a tiny whip :P
[21:44] <Randomskk> but am planning on getting the X-50 as well
[21:44] <Randomskk> what'd you suggest for sats though?
[21:44] <fsphil> Most sats seem to use two bands, 70cm and 2m -- I've seen yagi's with both
[21:44] <m1x10> thx Randomskk
[21:45] <fsphil> there's a name for it but I can't remember it
[21:45] <m1x10> I plan to buy this : http://www.ouroulis-comms.gr/product_info.php?products_id=219&osCsid=e56946f2988a43966388d124df3a28a3
[21:45] <fsphil> I'm not sure you can buy her
[21:46] <fsphil> (I got an error page :)
[21:46] <LazyLeopard> Dual-band vertical? I've got a tri-band vertical, but to talk to ISS I think I'd need to go outside with my 5 element 144 yagi instead...
[21:47] <jonsowman> fsphil: yeh pretty sure she's not for sale
[21:47] <fsphil> dual-band yagi
[21:47] <LazyLeopard> s/vertical/colinear/ ?
[21:47] <fsphil> a 70cm and 2m yagi, each frequency at opposite polarities
[21:47] <fsphil> band even, not frequency
[21:48] <Randomskk> jonsowman: fsphil: on the contrary, I suspect the image was paid for :P
[21:48] <fsphil> lol
[21:48] <jonsowman> heh
[21:48] <Randomskk> could do with a 2m yagi really
[21:48] <LazyLeopard> The dual-band Arrow yagi seems quite popular for AmSat work...
[21:48] <Randomskk> I want that, but on a really fast tracker
[21:48] <Randomskk> then it can do all the tough work of pointing
[21:48] <fsphil> something like this --> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/07/catching_satellites_on_ham_radio.html
[21:49] <fsphil> I've already got the 70cm yagi, so I'm thinking of getting the matching 2m version
[21:49] <Randomskk> ooh. tempting.
[21:49] <LazyLeopard> Yeah. ;)
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[21:49] <Laurenceb> sup
[21:49] <spacefelix_> Hello.
[21:49] <Laurenceb> welcome
[21:49] <Randomskk> yo
[21:49] <Randomskk> fsphil: haha epic dual band yagi
[21:49] <spacefelix_> Can anyone tell me more about the http://spacenear.us/ website?
[21:49] <Randomskk> you could take out loads of eyes at once if there wasn't so much orange stuff on it
[21:50] Action: Laurenceb is playing with gerbers
[21:50] <Randomskk> spacefelix_: probably! what do you need to know?
[21:50] <jonsowman> spacefelix_: what about it?
[21:50] <spacefelix_> I'm working with a balloon flight project with my hackerspace for the HSIS competition: http://www.workshop88.com/space/
[21:50] <spacefelix_> How does it work and how do I get my beacon on there?
[21:50] <Laurenceb> i wrote a script to convert small rectangles to larger or cicles, seems to work well with logos
[21:50] <spacefelix_> Are their specific codes/frequencies I must use?
[21:51] <Laurenceb> in the UK we use 434mhz
[21:51] <Randomskk> spacefelix_: basically the data is uploaded by computers
[21:51] <Randomskk> the frequency you use isn't significant, but we standardise on a certain protocol
[21:51] <Randomskk> a radio receives the data, the computer decodes it to ASCII, then uploads it to the server
[21:51] <DanielRichman> at the lowest level data arrives to a "listen" server via a HTTP post and it gets plotted, however there's a lot of software on top of that
[21:51] <Randomskk> we used a forked verison of fldigi called dl-fldigi
[21:51] <Randomskk> which can automatically detect the data strings and upload them
[21:51] <Randomskk> http://github.com/jamescoxon/dl-fldigi
[21:51] <Randomskk> ^ has downloads and such
[21:52] <Randomskk> spacefelix_: have you already worked out a protocol or similar for your project?
[21:52] <DanielRichman> spacefelix_: links of interest http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:dl-fldigi http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[21:53] <Randomskk> spacefelix_: however, if you're in the US it may be easier to just use APRS on a normal amateur radio
[21:53] <DanielRichman> yeah, in the UK the laws are much more restrictive so we have to fly unlicenced 10mW 50baud radios
[21:53] <spacefelix_> Oh, I'm from Makers Local 256: https://256.makerslocal.org/
[21:54] <spacefelix_> Okay.
[21:54] <Randomskk> you can use spacenear.us as the tracker site, but if you use APRS there are other similar, like aprs.fi, that'l work
[21:54] <spacefelix_> Well, we've been using a tracker developed by our advisor using ham radio frequencies.
[21:54] <spacefelix_> Ja, APRS is what he has.
[21:54] <spacefelix_> We plan to use it as well.
[21:55] <Randomskk> spacenear.us doesn't take APRS data (at the moment, though it could)
[21:55] <spacefelix_> I have a friend who is interested in something cheaper since he is on a budget.
[21:55] <Randomskk> ah, fair enough
[21:55] <Randomskk> our system can end up being really cheap. we typically use NTX-2 radios from radiometrix but anything that'l transmit 50 baud two tone RTTY on 434mhz works really well
[21:55] <Randomskk> you'd want to double check 434mhz is unlicensed though
[21:55] <Randomskk> also, have to ask, are you at work?
[21:56] <DanielRichman> :D
[21:58] <fsphil> hehe
[21:59] <spacefelix_> LOL.
[21:59] <spacefelix_> I am always at work.
[21:59] <spacefelix_> I take it you've looked at my IP?
[21:59] <jonsowman> maybe.
[21:59] <Randomskk> it does look rather exciting
[21:59] <spacefelix_> Ja, MSFC Shuttle S&MA.
[22:00] <jonsowman> :D
[22:00] <Randomskk> fun stuff
[22:01] <spacefelix_> Too bad we are ending soon. :P
[22:01] <Randomskk> haha yea indeed
[22:01] <spacefelix_> Layoffs have been doing the rounds out here, so this place has been emptying out in recent days
[22:01] <Randomskk> shuttle launches are great fun to watch
[22:01] <Randomskk> a tad more impressive than letting go of a balloon
[22:02] <Randomskk> D:
[22:02] <spacefelix_> We're hoping congress gets up and gets us a new program since we'll be developing the propulsion out here.
[22:02] <spacefelix_> *hopes*
[22:02] <Upu> good luck with that :)
[22:03] <spacefelix_> Hahaha.
[22:03] <Upu> hopefully they'll listen to us and start launching from large Arduino powered balloons
[22:03] <spacefelix_> Heh.
[22:04] <Randomskk> good luck getting into orbit using a balloon that works on the density difference :P
[22:04] <spacefelix_> Well, there is another project I'm involved with where we did a rockoon launch. Although that was the second gen. I'm third gen, so I get to hear war stories from the second gens: http://chapters.nss.org/al/HAL5/HALO_Index.shtml
[22:04] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: epic logo solution - Img2CAD running under wine for BMP -> DXF, then gCncCam to convert to Gerber RS274X, then manually edit it into the silkscreen
[22:04] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: blimey. sounds like a lot of work
[22:04] <Randomskk> spacefelix_: :o
[22:04] Action: Randomskk is part of a group working on a rockoon over in the UK
[22:05] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: yeah but gives you vector graphics
[22:05] <spacefelix_> Oh, cool! What's your setup?
[22:06] <Randomskk> we have a rocket, and we have a balloon, but we haven't stuck them together yet. :P
[22:06] <Upu> cool Randomskk :) Thats what I'd like to do :)
[22:06] <Upu> But I'll take it one step at a time I'll get a balloon up first
[22:06] <Randomskk> it's all solid fuel, carbon fibre body, boring launch tube, we haven't solved the hard problems
[22:06] <Randomskk> atm working on a static test rig for the motor
[22:06] <spacefelix_> Rock.
[22:07] <Laurenceb> wasnt the idea a 5m long aluminium launch rail stabilised with some guy lines
[22:07] <Randomskk> well, we have the rig. it needs some electronics to interface the sensors
[22:07] <Laurenceb> an with slight rifling
[22:07] <Upu> how long does the rocket burn for ?
[22:07] <Randomskk> yea. last I heard we hadn't done the maths to work out how much spin we needed though
[22:07] <Laurenceb> nope someone did it for their 4th year project
[22:07] <Laurenceb> i have the pdf
[22:08] <Laurenceb> 4hz iirc
[22:08] <Randomskk> hm, fair enough. iain?
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> I really hope in some ways congress gets out of the 'developing rockets' buisness.
[22:09] <spacefelix_> You guys are based in Austrailia?
[22:09] <Laurenceb> yes, ians thesis
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> That is - developing rockets based on picking technologies based on who has the best pork.
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> I'm in the UK.
[22:09] <Randomskk> spacefelix_: UK
[22:09] <spacefelix_> Ah.
[22:09] <spacefelix_> Cool.
[22:09] <spacefelix_> I take it you guys also know Bill Brown?
[22:09] <Laurenceb> i designed a spin stabilised system for my n prize rocket
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> SpaceX is doing _much_ better value for money stuff ATM than most 'proper' aerospace companies.
[22:10] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:10] <spacefelix_> Ah, 'WB8ELK'/
[22:10] <Laurenceb> 30Hz rotation with a CF tube spin up system
[22:10] <spacefelix_> Ja, he flew with us last Saturday.
[22:10] <Laurenceb> project promethius n prize team have exactly the same spin up rockoon design iirc
[22:11] <spacefelix_> Laurenceb: Muuhahaha, I am also considering entering the N-Prize.
[22:11] <Laurenceb> came up with it independantly from me :P
[22:11] <Laurenceb> theres little point
[22:11] <spacefelix_> Except for awesome fun.
[22:11] <Laurenceb> but the n prize "class" of launch vehicle and targets for cost etc are a good pont to aim for
[22:11] <spacefelix_> And saying you can put something into orbit.
[22:11] <spacefelix_> Ja.
[22:12] <spacefelix_> Oh, did you guys get this news! http://hackaday.com/tag/copenhagen-suborbital/
[22:12] <spacefelix_> :DD
[22:12] <Laurenceb> itd be stupid trying to get my design to pass the criterion
[22:12] <Laurenceb> also in the independant
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> That looks interesting.
[22:12] <Laurenceb> - newspaper
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> But ...
[22:12] <spacefelix_> COol.
[22:12] <Laurenceb> - my design had a stupidly expensive reusable balloon platform
[22:12] <spacefelix_> Hmmm.
[22:13] <Laurenceb> and the rules on reusable hardware would mean id have to launch two rockets :(
[22:13] <spacefelix_> I was of the impression the N-Prize rules said you only pay for what you have to expend, right?
[22:13] <Laurenceb> well as in balloon platform cost about as much as a rocket
[22:13] <spacefelix_> So if you can reuse stuff, is is counted towards cost/launch?
[22:14] <Laurenceb> - lots of CF tube, very good bearings, good IMU, onboard radio relay station with GPS synced doppler and delay pinging of the rocket
[22:14] <Laurenceb> the tronics for the balloon station got pricey
[22:15] <Laurenceb> so you had to charter a boat out of Cancun to recover it, and i think thatd have to be added to the costs as well
[22:15] <Laurenceb> so even tho the rocket only cost £340, the rest of the operations covered in the n-prize rules made it next to impossible
[22:17] <Laurenceb> and there would have been silly issues, e.g. buying a large sheet of CF/nomex honeycomb and only using 10% of it, would they let you put in 10% of the cost?
[22:18] <Laurenceb> so yes, n-prize vehicle class is very good for experimentation, but the n-prize rules are too inflexible and silly and the prize money is way to small
[22:18] <Laurenceb> prize money to £100K, costs down from £1K to £500, and more flexible rules and itd be worth doing but still a challenge
[22:21] <Laurenceb> spacefelix_: you have to demonstrate reuse with a second launch
[22:23] <Laurenceb> also the rules on donation are too unclear - e.g. if Cesaroni could be persuaded to donate the HPR reloads to power the rocket the cost becomes crazy low, but that doesnt reflect a realistic cost
[22:24] <Laurenceb> anyways just my thoughts on it :D
[22:24] <spacefelix_> LOL.
[22:25] <spacefelix_> So unless you lived on an island on the equator and happened to own a rocket facility (Ahem, kwajaelin), then you're SOL. :P
[22:25] <Laurenceb> my rocket was a 2 stage spin stabilised CF rockoon using off the shelf HPR motors
[22:25] <Laurenceb> bbl
[22:27] <fsphil> I really need to work on my rockets... my current design is powered by pressurised dihydromonoxide ...
[22:27] <spacefelix_> Mine too... well, was. :P
[22:27] <spacefelix_> Chamber overpressures suck.
[22:35] <spacefelix_> So how long have you guys been working at spaceflight?
[22:35] <spacefelix_> Are you guys all spacefliers or do you so other projects too?
[22:37] Action: fsphil is a newbie, just one balloon flight so far
[22:37] <DanielRichman> "anything to do with high altitude projects"
[22:37] <Randomskk> spacefelix_: I'm a uni student and only really got involved with any of this about a year ago now
[22:38] <Randomskk> (joined the group at uni)
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[22:38] <spacefelix_> Cool.
[22:38] <spacefelix_> So you guys are pretty much a mixed bag?
[22:39] <Randomskk> we're a very loose organisation
[22:39] <jonsowman> UKHAS - yes, quite varied
[22:39] <Randomskk> most of us haven't actually met or anything
[22:40] <jonsowman> what happened to that UKHAS meet and launch weekend idea
[22:40] <sbasuita> this needs to happen!
[22:40] <spacefelix_> Heh.
[22:41] <spacefelix_> Meet all at once at 100 km up at 10:00 UTC?
[22:41] <DanielRichman> jcoxon occasionally talks about it. I think there was a "meet on saturday launch tonnes of balloons on sunday idea floating :P"
[22:41] <jonsowman> hehe
[22:41] <fsphil> oooh
[22:41] <Randomskk> that'd be pretty awesome
[22:41] <jonsowman> that'd be cool
[22:41] <fsphil> that sounds fun
[22:41] <spacefelix_> Simultaneous balloon flights all across Europe?
[22:41] <spacefelix_> Coool.
[22:41] <Randomskk> thing is though
[22:41] <Randomskk> NTX-2s come in two frequencies
[22:42] <sbasuita> :P
[22:42] <jonsowman> frequency clashes
[22:42] <jonsowman> yea
[22:42] <spacefelix_> Ha, tie 'em all together and call it one big vehicle.
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[22:42] <DanielRichman> some sort of CDMA ?
[22:42] <DanielRichman> or since they'll all have gpses and will know the exact time, time slots?
[22:42] <jonsowman> I wonder what would happen with two 434.075 modules, one using eg. 0V2 and 0V4 RTTY and the other using 4V8 and 5V RTTY
[22:43] <Randomskk> drift would kill you I suspect
[22:43] <Randomskk> but eh
[22:43] <Randomskk> it's a fair difference
[22:43] <Randomskk> you might get away with it
[22:43] <Randomskk> especially if you had like 300 buad and don't talk too often
[22:43] <DanielRichman> how much does it drift by?
[22:43] <Randomskk> so long as they didn't get in sync
[22:43] <DanielRichman> 10kHz shift between 0v and 3.3v
[22:43] <Randomskk> might drift by about the same too. certainly in the same direction
[22:43] <jonsowman> yea
[22:44] <jonsowman> that'd be interesting to try
[22:44] <m1x10> fsphil I fixed the lat bug. Now backup module is up and running !
[22:44] <fsphil> woo-hoo!
[22:45] <jonsowman> Notes:
[22:45] <jonsowman> 1. Available in 25kHz channel steps on other custom frequencies in 433MHz/458MHz band
[22:45] <jonsowman> from
[22:45] <jonsowman> http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/products/ntx2nrx2.htm
[22:45] <Randomskk> hmmm
[22:45] <Randomskk> do a ukhas group order
[22:45] <Randomskk> get them in a range of frequencies
[22:45] <fsphil> how wide is the license exempt band?
[22:46] <jonsowman> that'd be great
[22:46] <jonsowman> fsphil: huge
[22:46] <fsphil> ah no problem then
[22:46] <Randomskk> it's like, all of 434?
[22:46] <sbasuita> er
[22:46] <jonsowman> fsphil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-power_communication_device
[22:46] <sbasuita> i don't remember it being that big
[22:46] <fsphil> m1x10, have you got a website yet?
[22:46] <sbasuita> 434 is 70cm amateur no?
[22:46] <Randomskk> sbasuita: 430-440 is 70cm
[22:46] <sbasuita> ah ok
[22:47] <Randomskk> wikipedia lists channels as being 433.075 to 434.775
[22:47] <Randomskk> so actually more than a mhz
[22:47] <Randomskk> 69 channels
[22:47] <jonsowman> yeh it's pretty big
[22:47] <Randomskk> that's a lot of balloons
[22:47] <jonsowman> relatively
[22:47] <m1x10> fsphil, I got this with all my personal projects: http://mixio.herobo.com/
[22:47] <m1x10> why?
[22:47] <Randomskk> hmm, but 434 requires a license in the usa
[22:47] <jonsowman> yeh
[22:48] <fsphil> m1x10, you should start posting pictures and updates :)
[22:48] <m1x10> haha
[22:48] <jonsowman> I wonder what radiometrix would say to an order of 10 ntx2 all on different frequencies
[22:48] <jonsowman> just pick some random ones
[22:48] <Randomskk> maybe they'd just charge a bit more
[22:48] <jonsowman> I might send an email and enquire
[22:48] <jonsowman> inquire? enquire?
[22:48] <Randomskk> would be worth considering. organise a ukhas day somewhere, charge money for attending, enough to buy an ntx2 on a frequency each and other gubbins
[22:49] <Randomskk> jonsowman: depends on your nationality, style guide, usage of the word
[22:49] <jonsowman> oh okay
[22:49] <m1x10> APRS tracker and backup tracker are ready !!!!!!!!! yuuuuuuuupi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[22:49] <Randomskk> The traditional distinction between enquire and inquire is that enquire is to be used for general senses of ask while inquire is reserved for uses meaning make a formal investigation. In practice, however, enquire (and enquiry) is more common in British English while inquire (and inquiry) is more common in US English
[22:49] <Randomskk> as in "an inquiry"
[22:49] <m1x10> next plan is the servo camera! :)
[22:49] <jonsowman> now I know :)
[22:49] <spacefelix_> I inquire on 'enquire'. :P
[22:50] <m1x10> (sory to interrupt the discussion)
[22:52] <jonsowman> email sent to RM
[22:52] <jonsowman> let's see what they say
[22:53] <DanielRichman> I hope RM get some businses other than HAB
[22:53] <Randomskk> :P
[22:53] <Randomskk> I'm sure they do
[22:53] <Randomskk> loads of things need radio comms
[22:53] <DanielRichman> yeah. No way they could afford to give out so much stuff
[22:53] <Randomskk> though 2.4ghz is all the rage these days
[22:53] <jonsowman> I had a very long email discussion a while back with one of their chief engineers
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[22:54] <jonsowman> Sounded like a stunningly interesting job, he said he gets to do a lot of research and generally mucking around with cool kit
[22:55] <Randomskk> I bet it would be
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[23:22] <spacefelix_> Seeya guys.
[23:23] <spacefelix_> It's been cool talking.
[23:23] <Randomskk> seeya
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[00:00] --- Wed Aug 25 2010