[00:00] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: # Make this unique, and don't share it with anybody.
[00:00] <Randomskk> sigh.
[00:00] <DanielRichman> you changed it?
[00:00] <Randomskk> why would they even put that in files that are clearly going to be committed
[00:00] <DanielRichman> I guess not.
[00:00] <Randomskk> I have now
[00:00] <DanielRichman> cool :)
[00:00] <Randomskk> not that it's much use
[00:01] <Randomskk> just a seed for session cookies I imagine
[00:01] <Randomskk> maybe csrf
[00:01] <DanielRichman> yeah I don't know what it's actually used for
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[00:01] <DanielRichman> that'd be my guess too
[00:02] <Randomskk> it's a tiny django app
[00:02] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/isatracker/
[00:03] <Randomskk> sadly the graph is going to look a bit weird as we just hit midnight and it's not got prices for today yet
[00:03] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/isatracker/admin/ is awesome
[00:03] <Randomskk> you get all that functionality for free
[00:04] <DanielRichman> :) django
[00:04] <DanielRichman> You seem to like that style (http://www.srcf.ucam.org/cuspaceflight/calc/)
[00:05] <Randomskk> yea :/
[00:05] <Randomskk> it's because I lack imagination, like blues, and find that generally easy to whip up
[00:05] <Randomskk> the website I'm making at work is also blues in a similar kind of boxy style, but with rounded corners and in php
[00:05] <DanielRichman> blues are definitely good
[00:05] <Randomskk> it's no coincidence that isatracker and calc use the same colours though
[00:05] <Randomskk> those colours work well enough so I used the same ones on both
[00:06] <Randomskk> but like, check commit history
[00:06] <Randomskk> 2010-03-21 has almost all the commits, going from nothing to almost all working
[00:06] <Randomskk> 23rd adds a bit of style and charts on funds, 24th adds charts on isas
[00:07] <Randomskk> so quick
[00:07] <DanielRichman> :P
[00:07] <DanielRichman> do you have a private git account so that you can non-public some repos or is it the space limits?
[00:07] <Randomskk> I have a private account and a couple of private repos
[00:07] <Randomskk> but this doesn't actually need to be private
[00:08] <Randomskk> so I publiced it for easier personal reference and in case I want to point anyone to a django project
[00:08] <Randomskk> space wise I'm at like 2/5 private repos and 0/1 collabs, but I tend to use private repos then delete when not needed any more
[00:08] <Randomskk> e.g. university coursework collaboration with jonsowman
[00:08] <Randomskk> coursework done and marked, repo deleted
[00:09] <DanielRichman> are you forced to delete it?
[00:09] <Randomskk> by who?
[00:09] <DanielRichman> Uni
[00:09] <Randomskk> uni don't give a toss or know that it's on github or anything
[00:09] <Randomskk> it's my code
[00:09] <Randomskk> they ask politely that we don't make it public so as to preserve the integretity of the project for next year
[00:09] <DanielRichman> oh right I misred (again; I'm tired :X)
[00:10] <Randomskk> however, if they don't update the friggin highscores on this project I will be releasing the code
[00:10] <Randomskk> and giving it all all the first years next year
[00:10] <Randomskk> the bastards
[00:10] <earthshine> Evening/Morning
[00:10] <DanielRichman> :O
[00:10] <timbobel> evening
[00:10] <DanielRichman> hey :)
[00:10] <Randomskk> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~ag611/highscores/ their server stopped updating them 25 feb
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[00:11] <Randomskk> ag611 is me, js843 is jonsowman, we are rocking every single table
[00:11] <Randomskk> but 1/3 of the engineers still had to compete, so we don't know if we actually won
[00:12] <DanielRichman> I didn't realise they had tables
[00:12] <DanielRichman> those tables are mirrored by your userspace? (only available internally?)
[00:12] <Randomskk> yea, only internal, but I have a cronjob on the student run computing facility (SRCF) that mirrors them
[00:12] <DanielRichman> aah yes
[00:12] <DanielRichman> "Forbidden Access
[00:13] <DanielRichman> what was the project?
[00:13] <Randomskk> there's also a ruby script that loads each table on updates and parses it for people improving on their score, then emails me
[00:13] <DanielRichman> :P
[00:13] <Randomskk> write a c++ program to trade a commodity; start with some money (20k) and no quantity of commodity, must own at least 1000 by day 50
[00:14] <Randomskk> analyse 200 days of historic trading data to determine a model
[00:14] <Randomskk> then trade accordingly for 50 days to minimise the cost of the 1000 parts
[00:14] <DanielRichman> and the high scores are determined by the amount of moneyz you spend?
[00:14] <Randomskk> no
[00:14] <Randomskk> the amount at the end
[00:15] <DanielRichman> mmm nice
[00:15] <Randomskk> we start with 20k and the price for each item starts at 20
[00:15] <Randomskk> so you could buy 1000 on day 1
[00:15] <Randomskk> and do nothing else
[00:15] <Randomskk> and 'pass', getting standard coursework credit
[00:15] <Randomskk> I believe it was 8 marks std cred (you also had to plot a graph of the historic data using their C++ graphics lib)
[00:15] <Randomskk> and extra 4 for being awesome
[00:15] <Randomskk> we got 4 for having objects, vectors, git, etc
[00:15] <Randomskk> as opposed to arrays and loads of functions
[00:16] <DanielRichman> cool :)
[00:16] <Randomskk> but anyway we massively cheated the system, got all the data it would generate in advance and analysed it to find the optimal trading strategy for each data set
[00:16] <timbobel> sounds like a nice assignment
[00:16] <Randomskk> thus generated the most money it is possible to get
[00:16] <DanielRichman> haha
[00:16] <Randomskk> we didn't cheat for the final data set, we actually ran against our 'real' trading strategy (that's set -1)
[00:16] <Randomskk> but for 1 through 20, we generated as much money as it is possible to get
[00:16] <timbobel> ahahahah lovely
[00:17] <Randomskk> thing is
[00:17] <DanielRichman> brute force or something more elegant?
[00:17] <Randomskk> there was a cash prize for best results
[00:17] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: more elegant
[00:17] <timbobel> roofl
[00:17] <Randomskk> but they stopped updating the high scores and neither of us have heard anything about it at all
[00:17] <Randomskk> so I'm a bit annoyed
[00:17] <DanielRichman> aah I understand you now
[00:17] <Randomskk> our code was excellently written
[00:17] <Randomskk> I'd do it better still now that I've had a few weeks writing professional C++ for someone who demanded really high quality work
[00:18] <Randomskk> but that's besides the point
[00:18] <DanielRichman> the number on the right hand side of the table; fourth column; is the amount at the end of the 20th day?
[00:18] <Randomskk> it's still excellent
[00:18] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: yea
[00:18] <DanielRichman> wow you really did rock the tables
[00:18] <Randomskk> first number is lab group
[00:18] <Randomskk> then our CRS IDs
[00:18] <Randomskk> then the money left
[00:18] <Randomskk> and yea, we really did
[00:18] <Randomskk> in some cases massively
[00:18] <Randomskk> like by hundreds of thousands of pounds
[00:18] <DanielRichman> 12 is pretty damn good :P
[00:18] <Randomskk> 8 for instance, 409k to 116k 2nd place
[00:19] <Randomskk> that's like 300k extra
[00:19] <Randomskk> given we all started with 20k and traded for 50 days
[00:19] <DanielRichman> interersting, there's one dude working on his own
[00:19] <Randomskk> some people are in lab groups of 1
[00:19] <Randomskk> 10500% per annum interest
[00:19] <DanielRichman> what OS was it written for?
[00:19] <Randomskk> linux
[00:19] <Randomskk> 10500%!
[00:20] <DanielRichman> :P
[00:20] <Randomskk> over a hundred times your money back after a year
[00:20] <Randomskk> crazy
[00:20] <Randomskk> 6 is even better...
[00:20] <Randomskk> 7 better yet hah
[00:21] <Randomskk> 7 is 22926 -- about 23000% -- p.a.
[00:21] <Randomskk> if only we could look into the future etc
[00:22] <timbobel> what happens in C if i say
[00:22] <Randomskk> it even outputted a YAML log of its trading
[00:23] <timbobel> variable == 10 instead of =10
[00:23] <Randomskk> you compare variable to 10, returning a boolean result
[00:23] <DanielRichman> depends on what you're trying to do
[00:23] <Randomskk> = is assignment
[00:23] <Randomskk> == is comparison
[00:23] <DanielRichman> idd
[00:23] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: try this in python
[00:23] <Laurenceb> what the hell
[00:24] <Randomskk> http://pastie.org/1066355
[00:24] <Laurenceb> how do you get 10500% per annum?
[00:24] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: the trading program knew the price data that would be generated, so could trade perfectly
[00:24] <Randomskk> not irl
[00:24] <Laurenceb> lmao
[00:24] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: that is terrifying
[00:24] <Laurenceb> oh I see
[00:24] <DanielRichman> :O shocking
[00:24] <Randomskk> you can assign to True and False in python
[00:24] <Randomskk> lol
[00:24] <Randomskk> worse of course is False = True
[00:24] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: when you say "cheated the system" don't you mean... "cheated" :P?
[00:25] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: we cheated intelligently
[00:25] <Randomskk> decompiled the provided binary library which we extracted from their server, straced the resulting binaries to see how they communicated results to the system, etc
[00:25] <DanielRichman> lmao
[00:26] <Randomskk> it turns out they write a .trading file with the dataset and how much money you had at the end to the local directory, and a cron job scans all user trading directories for these dot files and parses them, displaying the results
[00:26] <Randomskk> we tested this
[00:26] <Randomskk> you can write anything you like
[00:26] <DanielRichman> oh that's just asking for it
[00:26] <Randomskk> 1000000000.0
[00:26] <Randomskk> but we didn't
[00:26] <Randomskk> we developed a program that trades perfectly
[00:26] <m1x10> FSA lat long have bigger precision !
[00:27] <DanielRichman> so did you pre-prepare the program for each dataset based on the data you had extracted?
[00:27] <m1x10> but aprs format allows only certain number of characters :(
[00:27] <Randomskk> no, we supplied a configuration file for our program that contained the optimum trading data for each day in each dataset
[00:27] <Randomskk> well
[00:27] <timbobel> interesting
[00:27] <Randomskk> yes, then
[00:27] <Randomskk> same thing as what you said
[00:28] <m1x10> GPGGA,232759.00,4038.88018,N,02256.67296,E,1,08,1.52,116.7,M,35.5,M,,
[00:28] <m1x10> GPRMC,232759.00,A,4038.88018,N,02256.67296,E,0.281,28.86,290710,,,AA
[00:28] <DanielRichman> so they provided a binary containing all the trading data for you to pick apart?
[00:28] <DanielRichman> at the beginning?
[00:28] <Randomskk> no
[00:28] <m1x10> 232759h4038.88N/02256.67EO028/000/A=000116________ALFA_IKAROS
[00:28] <Randomskk> you weren't meant to dev on a local machine
[00:28] <m1x10> :)
[00:28] <Randomskk> just on the server
[00:28] <Randomskk> they had put a binary library in the library link path on the server
[00:28] <Randomskk> and provided a header file
[00:28] <Randomskk> it was like, trade(day, action, quantity) and stuff
[00:28] <DanielRichman> mmm
[00:29] <Randomskk> it generated prices at random but with the same seed for each dataset, using sine to create the overall fluctuations and then adding outliers onto that
[00:29] <m1x10> timbobel did u mail esadwast ?
[00:29] <DanielRichman> http://pastie.org/1066362
[00:29] <Randomskk> so consistent results per dataset, but apparently random each
[00:29] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: :D
[00:29] <Randomskk> but yea, decompiled that to get an idea, but once we knew it was consistent and not communicating to their server to report back on us, ran it and got the price data for each day then analysed that
[00:29] <Laurenceb> http://swharden.com/tmp/balloon/view2.html
[00:30] <Randomskk> copied the library from their server, happily it was binary compatible with my desktop
[00:30] <Randomskk> no source to be found sadly
[00:30] <DanielRichman> (it's strange, you can assign to False and True yet "False" and "True" as reported by the interactive console suggests some sort of bool literalism)
[00:30] <DanielRichman> source would have been icing on the cake
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[00:31] <DanielRichman> really they *should* have had a library that communicates with a central server which guards the data
[00:31] <Randomskk> yes
[00:31] <Randomskk> they are a lot of things they should have done
[00:31] <Randomskk> however if you think that's bad
[00:31] <Randomskk> this holiday's coursework is worse
[00:32] <Randomskk> I think I've whined about it before
[00:32] <DanielRichman> Randomskk: the analysis of the trading data 200days previously, that's meant to be done by the program? or do the humans analyse it and then write the program?
[00:32] <Randomskk> by program
[00:32] <Randomskk> all that was required was a least squares regression
[00:32] <Randomskk> i.e. best fit linear
[00:32] <Randomskk> and draw that line on the graph
[00:32] <Randomskk> this holiday is the graphical mars lander thing, they provide a 2kloc2 source file of hundreds of global functions, I'm sure I've whined about it before but it's horrid
[00:32] <DanielRichman> I don't think I've quite got my head around how this was meant to be a competition
[00:33] <Randomskk> not started that yet
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[00:33] <DanielRichman> you mentioned something about horrid code
[00:33] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: better analysis or trading strategy leads to different end amounts of money
[00:33] <DanielRichman> if you used the system as it was meant to be... were you only allowed to trade each scenario once?
[00:34] <DanielRichman> and each scenario only "began" on a certain day?
[00:34] <DanielRichman> s/scenario/"round"/
[00:34] <Randomskk> no
[00:34] <Randomskk> datasets 1..20 were for testing
[00:34] <Randomskk> run as many times as you like
[00:35] <Randomskk> dataset -1 was 'final', 'unseen', only to be run against once
[00:35] <Randomskk> so you could only submit one score for it
[00:35] <Randomskk> first time you run against it, that's your score, gets entered, no updating it
[00:35] <Randomskk> but like, we could do anything we wanted locally
[00:35] <Randomskk> so the -1 dataset is the competition one
[00:35] <Randomskk> and we didn't cheat on that
[00:35] <Randomskk> but still dominated
[00:35] <DanielRichman> aah fair enough :P
[00:35] <DanielRichman> so you maxed out 1..20 just for phun
[00:35] <Randomskk> yea
[00:35] <Randomskk> well basically
[00:36] <Randomskk> our non-cheating strategy was good
[00:36] <Randomskk> but not perfect
[00:36] <Randomskk> we were never less than about 3rd or 4th and mostly we were 1st
[00:36] <Randomskk> but in a few datasets other people had snatched a couple k more
[00:36] <DanielRichman> I hope that the data for -1 wasn't available in this binary you decompiled
[00:36] <Randomskk> so we sat down, cheated outrageously, sat around laughing our heads off at what we'd done for about twenty minutes, submitted scores for all datasets
[00:36] <DanielRichman> :D
[00:36] <Randomskk> well the binary didn't store any of th edata
[00:36] <Randomskk> it had the seed to generate it, and the formula
[00:37] <DanielRichman> well was the seed & formula for -1 in there?
[00:37] <Randomskk> but much easier to just have the program cout << day << price and run it, save that to a file
[00:37] <Randomskk> yea
[00:37] <Randomskk> of course
[00:37] <DanielRichman> >.>
[00:37] <Randomskk> decompiling was just to check it didn't do network shit
[00:37] <Randomskk> and get an idea
[00:37] <Randomskk> actually extracting the data was much easier done by a c++ program that linked to it
[00:38] <DanielRichman> oh the symbols for this function that generated the data were exposed enough to link against?
[00:38] <Randomskk> online flight tracking is almost like balloon tracking, but the plane is going a lot faster, it takes a lot longer, I don't have a radio for it and it doesn't get anything like as high
[00:38] <DanielRichman> and then just use?
[00:38] <Randomskk> the library had a header file we used
[00:38] <Randomskk> in order to interact with it
[00:38] <Randomskk> you say, start trading dataset 10, start trading day 1, it says price, you say buy|sell|pass quantity, start trading day 2, repeat, finish
[00:39] <Randomskk> program had to keep track internally of its money and quantity
[00:39] <Randomskk> and check them against the library at the end
[00:39] <Randomskk> anyway I'd better get to sleep. weekend soon, thank god
[00:39] <Randomskk> more php dev for me tomorrow
[00:40] <Randomskk> symfony isn't that bad though
[00:40] <DanielRichman> bye
[00:41] <Randomskk> make the most of being on school holidays without having to drive to work early tomorrow morning :P
[00:41] <m1x10> anyone tried to disable SBAS on fsa03 ? in EU is not available.
[00:42] <m1x10> datasheet p.102
[00:44] <DanielRichman> Thank you for requesting samples from STMicroelectronics. This e-
[00:44] <DanielRichman> mail is to confirm receipt of your order.
[00:44] <DanielRichman> woo
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[00:45] <SpeedEvil> ST are good.
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> I have lots of stuff I haven't used from ST.
[00:45] <SpeedEvil> :/
[00:45] <DanielRichman> haha
[00:45] <DanielRichman> I don't yet know if I'm going to use these
[00:46] <DanielRichman> true random number generator: avalanche noise or - amplification of noise from resistors (needs to be as small as possible) ?
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> Same with freescale
[00:49] <SpeedEvil> internal noise from an ADC on a micro?
[00:50] <SpeedEvil> through a entropy pool
[00:50] <DanielRichman> well I want to find a reliable and tiny way to get a TRNG good enough for crypto
[00:50] <DanielRichman> and forex found this http://robseward.com/misc/RNG2/
[00:50] <SpeedEvil> at what bitrate?
[00:50] <DanielRichman> the implementation with regards to its interface thorugh an ADC with an micro is poor but I'm talking about how good the noise generator is
[00:51] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil: doesn't need to be that fast at all
[00:51] <DanielRichman> continuous data is not required
[00:51] <SpeedEvil> Ah - no - I mean for example a grounded ADC input.
[00:51] <SpeedEvil> It'll - typically bounce around 0-1 or so.
[00:51] <DanielRichman> need it even be grounded? could just leave it floating
[00:52] <SpeedEvil> If you feed that into a hash of the input data and the current pool state, and put the hash back in the pool, then extract a bit no more than once every 10000 samples/mixes
[00:52] <DanielRichman> and that will be true noise/good enough for a trng with a bit of post processing? (I'll do my own tests)
[00:53] <DanielRichman> that won't be too slow. I wonder how many bits are required to generate a private key (obviously depends on algo. but, generally)
[00:54] <DanielRichman> Looking at the schematic & board, however, I reckon I can squeese two or three tiny transistors as per that avalanche design, if that would generate a better/faster stream
[00:55] <SpeedEvil> The idea is that you have - say - 1 bit of noise on the ADC.
[00:56] <SpeedEvil> You guess that .9 of the input noise is externally influencable.
[00:56] <SpeedEvil> this leaves .1 bit of 'good' noise.
[00:56] <SpeedEvil> You take much less than .1 bits/sample out
[00:56] <SpeedEvil> 10000 is way overkill probbaly
[00:57] <DanielRichman> I see. I'll do some experimentation when I get the chips :)
[00:57] <DanielRichman> ty for the info :).
[00:57] <DanielRichman> aaah if only atmel gave out as many free samples as ST
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> I want some from NXP too
[00:59] <SpeedEvil> Who also don't do that
[01:01] <DanielRichman> my atmel chips are taking an ... interesting route to the UK via someone I know in the USsince all the UK distributers are out of stock
[01:04] <earthshine> what atmel chips?
[01:04] <DanielRichman> xmega a4
[01:05] <DanielRichman> every single us distributer but one had none of them either
[01:05] <DanielRichman> I think they're in short supply
[01:05] <earthshine> i see
[01:05] <DanielRichman> also they're not very common; this is the first time I've used the chip
[01:05] Action: SpeedEvil tries to remember if he's eaten 2 biscuits or 3.
[01:05] Action: SpeedEvil decides to not care.
[01:05] <DanielRichman> why do you need to know? eat another one
[01:06] <DanielRichman> exactly :)
[01:06] <SpeedEvil> I'm trying to track my calorie intake.
[01:07] <SpeedEvil> Been picking lots of fruit today.
[01:08] Action: SpeedEvil can actually see muscles! :)
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[01:10] <DanielRichman> mmm chicken sandwich http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=9001+fried+chickens+%2B+500+slices+of+toast
[01:11] <timbobel> nightoooo
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[01:13] <dently> trying to decide on a good downlink for an arduino. any recommendations? Xbee?
[01:16] <SpeedEvil> from what distance?
[01:17] <dently> 33km
[01:17] <earthshine> lol
[01:18] <SpeedEvil> what sort of bitrate?
[01:19] <dently> not more than 9600
[01:19] <SpeedEvil> you mean from a balloon?
[01:20] <SpeedEvil> Or ground-ground.
[01:20] <dently> HAB
[01:20] <dently> balloon
[01:21] <SpeedEvil> 33km is a bit shortrange
[01:21] <SpeedEvil> why so short?
[01:21] <SpeedEvil> also - where in the world are you
[01:21] <DanielRichman> we do 550km here
[01:22] <DanielRichman> dently: in the US if you have an amateur radio license it's a lot easier
[01:23] <dently> I do, but is the equipment cheaper?
[01:23] <DanielRichman> I know more about the system we use in the UK however since we're not allowed to fly stuff that requires a full anateur radio license
[01:23] <DanielRichman> we use 50baud rtty with a Radiometrix NTX2
[01:23] <DanielRichman> and a 1/4wave gndplane antenna
[01:24] <DanielRichman> + a ft817 and a whip and you're sorted (though you probably want the yagi if it's your balloon and you don't want to lose it)
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[01:25] <SpeedEvil> dently: where are you?
[01:25] <DanielRichman> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
[01:25] <dently> It is mine. US
[01:25] <SpeedEvil> in that case, packet radio is profitable.
[01:25] <SpeedEvil> APRS
[01:25] <DanielRichman> yeah you can use APRS
[01:26] <DanielRichman> cheaper - I don't know. You'd have to ask someone who's tried it
[01:26] <DanielRichman> WB8ELK
[01:27] <DanielRichman> hmm I'm off now; bye
[01:27] <dently> kc6nbt. the cost is the main factor.
[01:27] <DanielRichman> (WB8ELK isn't me; that's someone you might want to talk to)
[01:28] <DanielRichman> I think he uses a mixture of our system and aprs but I am not sure
[01:28] <DanielRichman> dently: if you already have a 434mhz portable ham receiver 817 or similar then £30 of radiometrix ntx2 will solve the problem
[01:29] <DanielRichman> I would have thought that an APRS transmitter is roughly the same price anyway
[01:29] <dently> I only have a 2 meter.
[01:29] <DanielRichman> well in that case APRS looks favourable
[01:29] <DanielRichman> it runs on 2m, doesn't it?
[01:32] <DanielRichman> I think you might be able to get radiometrixes on the aprs frequencies but can't say for sure. I'm only mentioning those because I know them & have had success using their modules
[01:32] <DanielRichman> but there might be an easier way
[01:33] <DanielRichman> quite a lot of the people here are from the UK and probably should be asleep dently so you might have better luck at another time of day :P that said, there are a few americans
[01:33] <DanielRichman> ls -la
[01:33] <DanielRichman> ^^ ugh; I'm that tired
[01:33] <dently> ok thanks.
[01:34] <dently> I'll look into APRS
[01:34] <dently> at 2m
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[03:53] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about the source of http://wiki.maemo.org/Image:N900gps-99-100%25.gif
[03:55] <SpeedEvil> oh!
[03:55] <SpeedEvil> bugger
[03:55] <SpeedEvil> That would be about the range of the semicircular support poles
[03:55] <SpeedEvil> of the poly-tunnel
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[05:14] <juxta_> hey natrium42
[05:14] <natrium42> yo juxta_
[05:14] <juxta_> how'
[05:14] <juxta_> how's things?*
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[05:20] <juxta_> natrium42, any idea if the +5v pin is actually needed for ICSP to work (so long as the target is powered)?
[05:32] <natrium42> it should not be, if you are already powering it
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[05:38] <juxta_> will give it a shot & see if it works
[05:38] <juxta_> a bit hesitant to hook up +5v as I have only one supply on my board & it's 3.3v with 3.3v components :)
[05:41] Action: natrium42 likes to live life dangerously :D
[05:42] <juxta_> haha
[05:43] <juxta_> reckon the FSA03 would handle 5v?
[05:43] <natrium42> what does the datasheet say under maximum ratings?
[05:44] <juxta_> it doesnt :(
[05:44] <juxta_> it's very sparse
[05:44] <natrium42> weird
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[07:28] <fsphil> juxta_, which programmer? some only use the voltage line to detect the voltage of the board
[07:29] <juxta_> fsphil, the sparkfun usbtiny one
[07:29] <juxta_> i've omitted the +5v for now
[07:29] <juxta_> will see if it works with the board powered (fingers crossed)
[07:30] <fsphil> worth testing without the +3v3 only parts
[07:30] <fsphil> if they are not soldered in place that is
[07:30] <fsphil> is that the oumex one?
[07:32] <fsphil> uugh... from a BBC news article today: "this trench on the dark side of Mars"
[07:34] <jonsowman> morning all
[07:34] <jonsowman> natrium42: can we wipe the spacenear GPSL stuff?
[07:35] <natrium42> sure
[07:35] <jonsowman> ok, someone was asking about it yesterday
[07:35] <jonsowman> and i didn't want to delete it without checking nobody needed it
[07:37] <jonsowman> dark side of mars? that's a new one
[07:53] <fsphil> yep. not enough jedi's
[07:54] <jonsowman> right im off
[07:54] <jonsowman> half day at work \o/
[07:54] <jonsowman> also, last day at work \o/
[07:54] <jonsowman> bbl
[07:58] <fsphil> woo
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[08:25] <m1x10> morning all :)
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[08:36] <fsphil> morning
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[09:46] <timbobel> descent rate of 5m/s isnt very realistic is it
[09:46] <timbobel> morning btw
[09:47] <fsphil> depends on the parachute
[09:47] <timbobel> 36" spherachute
[09:49] <fsphil> how heavy is the payload?
[09:49] <timbobel> ~1kg
[09:51] <fsphil> should be about 5m/s, according to this: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:parachute_sizing_chart
[09:51] <jonsowman_work> yep 5m/s is about right
[09:51] <timbobel> naaaah
[09:52] <fsphil> assuming it doesn't get tangled that is :)
[09:52] <timbobel> i am looking at juxta's horus 1 graph, he had 1.5kg, and he had the same chute
[09:52] <timbobel> he had a continuous 16.7m/s going down (and 4m/s going up)
[09:54] <fsphil> "the balloon got tangled around the parachute/radar reflector after burst, resulting in a very high impact speed"
[09:54] <fsphil> :)
[09:54] <timbobel> im not much of the reader
[09:54] <timbobel> hey
[09:54] <timbobel> advice
[09:54] <fsphil> the same thing happened us
[09:54] <timbobel> how NOT to get ice on the cam's lens.. i have already got some sacks of silica gel
[09:55] <jonsowman_work> leave it exposed, it'll be fine
[09:55] <jonsowman_work> timbobel: do you want the old GPSL data wiped from spacenear.us?
[09:56] <timbobel> jonsowman_work: you can delete EVERYTHING i do, except for sunday :)
[09:56] <fsphil> oh jonsowman_work, you'll probably see some strings from me on the tracker later, delete whenever you want it's just test
[09:56] <jonsowman_work> thanks guys
[09:56] <jonsowman_work> i'll wipe GPSL as that's long gone
[09:56] <jonsowman_work> timbobel: will leave your data on there for the moment
[09:56] <timbobel> by the way, is it a lot of hassle for you... i think i'm going to get the temp data removed?
[09:57] <timbobel> its not that crucial i guess
[09:57] <jonsowman_work> no that's fine
[09:57] <timbobel> oh btw never mind its just 5 characters
[09:57] <timbobel> but could be 5 important ones
[09:57] <jonsowman_work> just make sure you get me or james coxon to modify the xml if you change the telem
[09:57] <jonsowman_work> or it won't work :)
[09:57] <jonsowman_work> GPSL data wiped btw
[09:58] <timbobel> can you do it now? then i'll be testing in the train later on (my ballooon will appear to be in the train then)
[09:58] <fsphil> hehe
[09:58] <jonsowman_work> i can't do the XML from work i'm afraid
[09:59] <timbobel> oh then lets leave it for now
[09:59] <jonsowman_work> I finish at lunch though, so I can do it at approx 2pm BST
[09:59] <jonsowman_work> fsphil: is your XML all set up etc?
[10:00] <timbobel> jonsowman: okay, let me know, no hurry, shall we do it tonight? then today i will be testing with the two temps in th telemetry
[10:00] Action: timbobel wants to know how to avoid ice on cam's
[10:02] <fsphil> jonsowman_work, for now - I may be adding temperature at some point but not today
[10:02] <jonsowman_work> fsphil: okay
[10:02] <jonsowman_work> timbobel: yep give me a shout tonight, though before 8pm BST as I'm out tonight
[10:03] <timbobel> jonsowman: thanks for the great help man, you're too kind
[10:03] <fsphil> ice on the lens doesn't often happen
[10:03] <fsphil> the heat of the camera usually takes care of it
[10:04] <timbobel> okay
[10:04] <timbobel> now, back to the question
[10:04] <timbobel> how to avoid it
[10:05] <fsphil> is the lens exposed, or is it behind a window of some kind?
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[10:08] <timbobel> i dont think i shd put it behind a window..
[10:08] <timbobel> i do have 4 filters here though
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[10:12] <russss> if you don't have it behind a window it shouldn't ice up
[10:12] <russss> every time someone tries to be clever and use a window, they get icing
[10:12] <timbobel> why did the Horus 1(juxta) cams ice up?
[10:13] <jonsowman_work> russss: very true
[10:15] <timbobel> so then, the advice is, no window, it will go ok
[10:16] <m1x10> cold will not pass inside?
[10:17] <jonsowman_work> it will get cold, yes
[10:17] <jonsowman_work> but it will survive
[10:17] <jonsowman_work> and being exposed means you don't get a humidity difference, so it won't ice
[10:18] <timbobel> okido
[10:18] <jonsowman_work> </theory>
[10:18] <jonsowman_work> seems to have worked for most flights though
[10:18] <russss> cameras are quite good at keeping themselves warm
[10:18] <m1x10> did someone tried to use some kind of insulator between the camera and the styrofoam ?
[10:19] <m1x10> so cold is not passing through the hole
[10:21] <m1x10> timbobel what happened eventually?
[10:21] <m1x10> did u mail them?
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[10:37] <timbobel> i dont believe they can help
[10:37] <timbobel> what i did do is try gluing stryrofoam with bisonkit
[10:37] <timbobel> it ate straight through the stuff like it was friggin hungry
[10:38] <timbobel> WTF
[10:38] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[10:38] <timbobel> THE FALCOM
[10:38] <timbobel> IT IS BLEEPING
[10:38] <timbobel> IT IS BLEEEPING
[10:38] <timbobel> ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!
[10:38] <timbobel> !??!?!?! its inside and bleeping!
[10:38] <timbobel> I HAVE TEHHH LOOOOCK
[10:40] <fsphil> that's ... very odd
[10:40] <fsphil> there isn't anything that can make a noise?
[10:41] <fsphil> not intentionally anyway
[10:41] <DanielRichman> maybe on the esawdust breakout there's a beeeper?
[10:41] <m1x10> :P
[10:41] <DanielRichman> if there is that is win
[10:42] <fsphil> there isn't one in the picture, though they could have changed it since then
[10:44] <timbobel> lost it
[10:44] <fsphil> capacitors can beep if you torture them enough :)
[10:44] <DanielRichman> ouch :9
[10:44] <timbobel> or how about smoke signals
[10:50] <timbobel> im off
[10:50] <timbobel> X
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[10:50] <jonsowman_work> how do I search for a string in all files in a directory?
[10:50] <jonsowman_work> (linux)
[10:51] <fsphil> grep -re "string" *
[10:51] <jonsowman_work> thanks :)
[10:56] <jonsowman_work> \o/ another predictor github issue closed
[10:56] <jonsowman_work> yay
[11:02] <m1x10> :)
[11:18] <DanielRichman> shouldn't you be um...
[11:18] <DanielRichman> >.<
[11:20] <jonsowman_work> pff
[11:20] <jonsowman_work> no :P
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[11:24] <jcoxon> morning all
[11:24] <jonsowman_work> morning james
[11:24] <m1x10> yo
[11:25] <jcoxon> just quick look at the logs
[11:25] <jcoxon> i reckon you could pull off just sending $GPGGA
[11:25] <jcoxon> let me have a go
[11:26] <DanielRichman> jcoxon: there's something else in the logs you might wanna have a look at; give me a sec
[11:26] <jcoxon> anyone got a GPGGA string lying around
[11:26] Action: russss looks under the desk
[11:26] <russss> nope
[11:27] <DanielRichman> http://pastie.org/private/s8d2y0venmhbpvv7ovq
[11:27] <jcoxon> found one
[11:42] <jcoxon> hmmm no count on a GPGGA string
[11:42] <jcoxon> incremental time of course but then we need time
[11:45] <DanielRichman> hmm. This is why I have my own logs
[11:46] <jonsowman_work> he still in france?
[11:47] <DanielRichman> yes I think so
[11:48] <DanielRichman> and natrium is in a different timezone; he was here this morning... hmm ok
[11:49] <fsphil> trouble with the GPGGA strings is the lack of a decent checksum
[11:50] <jcoxon> fsphil, well that and a lot of other things :-)
[11:52] <fsphil> for an ultra basic tracker though, wire the gps output directly to the ntx2
[11:52] Action: jonsowman_work shudders
[11:52] <fsphil> haha
[11:53] <fsphil> ah, baud rate -- forgot about that
[11:53] <jonsowman_work> oh you mean actually directly
[11:53] <jonsowman_work> also logic level shifting
[11:53] <jonsowman_work> you can't stick 0V-low 5V-high serial into the NTX2
[11:54] <fsphil> yes, with the resistors I mean
[11:54] <jonsowman_work> :)
[11:54] <jcoxon> success!
[11:54] <fsphil> success is good!
[11:55] <jcoxon> though no time :-p
[11:55] <jonsowman_work> what are you trying jcoxon?
[11:55] <jcoxon> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[11:55] <jcoxon> :-p
[11:55] <fsphil> a mission called GPGGA I bet :)
[11:55] <jonsowman_work> haha
[11:56] <jcoxon> not sure how it'll cope without time
[11:56] <fsphil> oh which reminds me, does anyone see any problems with having the tracker require only a single $ at the beginning of the string?
[11:56] <jcoxon> iirc count is more inkporant
[11:56] <jcoxon> fsphil, this is the thing - i don't think it should
[11:56] <jcoxon> as in string_delimiter is defined in the xml
[11:57] <jonsowman_work> i agree with jcoxon
[11:57] <jcoxon> and is loaded by dl-fldigi
[11:57] <jonsowman_work> however
[11:57] <fsphil> for the non-continuous rtty signals the first byte is often lost
[11:57] <jonsowman_work> dl-fldigi cannot cope with a string like $$$APEX
[11:57] <jcoxon> we've made it customisable
[11:57] <fsphil> it can't?
[11:57] <jcoxon> well it'll pick up $$ and then run with $APEX in the string surely
[11:57] <jonsowman_work> yes
[11:57] <jcoxon> you could make it $$$ instead
[11:57] <jonsowman_work> surely it should ignore the first $
[11:58] <fsphil> for hadie 2 I'm using $$$$hadie,
[11:58] <jonsowman_work> and realise $$APEX is what it's after
[11:58] <jonsowman_work> fsphil: dlfidigi won't parse that properly
[11:58] <jcoxon> but thats not how it works :-p
[11:58] <fsphil> it should :
[11:58] <jcoxon> jonsowman it will if you define it
[11:58] <fsphil> :)
[11:58] <jcoxon> just go into dl-fldigi
[11:58] <jonsowman_work> hmm true
[11:58] <jcoxon> go to the config tab
[11:58] <jcoxon> and change $$ to $$$$
[11:58] <jcoxon> it'll be fine
[11:58] <fsphil> I don't think the number of $'s should even be specified
[11:59] <fsphil> any $ followed by the callsign should be enough
[11:59] <jcoxon> again thats not how it works
[11:59] <jcoxon> but
[11:59] <jonsowman_work> i still think it should look for the last in a sequence, so if config says "$$" it will understand $$$$APEX and only look at the last two $$s
[12:00] <jcoxon> jonsowman_work, did you miss lots of strings because of it?
[12:00] <jonsowman_work> anyway it's not a huge issue
[12:00] <jonsowman_work> jcoxon: not lots
[12:00] <jonsowman_work> but more than none
[12:00] <jcoxon> thats a bit odd
[12:00] <jcoxon> something must of been generating $$s
[12:01] <jonsowman_work> because we were turning the radio off, we got lots of crap generated by fldigi trying to decode nothing
[12:01] <jcoxon> i personally think we should leave it be
[12:01] <jonsowman_work> so if one of the "crap" characters was a $ and then the string came in, it screwed up
[12:01] <DanielRichman> well if you turn on the squelch and make it UUUUUUUUU$$APEX it will work
[12:01] <jonsowman_work> happened more than once
[12:01] <jonsowman_work> DanielRichman: yes that works
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[12:14] <m1x10> hey all
[12:14] <m1x10> some question
[12:14] <m1x10> do i really need both GGA and RMC
[12:14] <jcoxon> m1x10, not really
[12:14] <jcoxon> i get by with gga
[12:14] <m1x10> RMC provides speed and course for APRS
[12:14] <jcoxon> well if you are using APRS best stick to the format
[12:14] <m1x10> so you dont obey the APRS format
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[12:15] <jcoxon> i don't use APRS
[12:15] <m1x10> jcoxon, its ok for me to replace speed and course with zeros in aprs format hence not to break it
[12:16] <m1x10> my program just gets to complex when using both gga and rmc
[12:16] <jcoxon> arduino?
[12:16] <m1x10> so i want to hear your opinions for removing rmc
[12:16] <m1x10> yes
[12:16] <jcoxon> well i don't use aprs, don't think speed and course are too important
[12:16] <jcoxon> and so i modified the tinyGPS to just need GPGGA
[12:17] <jcoxon> and i turn off all the other strings
[12:17] <m1x10> jcoxon, did other flights use speed and course ?
[12:17] <m1x10> is there any important use for them ?
[12:18] <jcoxon> people report it
[12:18] <jcoxon> not sure they use it for anything
[12:18] <m1x10> i will use aprs strings for telemetry data
[12:18] <m1x10> so u say that speed and course information won't give anything to my flight
[12:19] <jcoxon> well you'll be scared by the speed you'll be going at :-p
[12:19] <jcoxon> but i don't personally think so
[12:19] <jcoxon> that said we had this discussion a while back
[12:20] <m1x10> why the gps people didnt make a sentence with alt long lati course speed !
[12:20] <m1x10> i hate them
[12:20] <m1x10> they provide too much info in seperate sentences
[12:22] <m1x10> is the speed big during the flight?
[12:23] <jcoxon> at times yes
[12:29] <jcoxon> bbiab
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[12:30] <fsphil> it can drop pretty quickly after the balloon bursts
[12:32] <fsphil> until the parachute starts working
[12:35] <m1x10> fsphil, do u use RMC ?
[12:35] <fsphil> Not at the moment, just GGA
[12:36] <fsphil> as you say the RMC line complicates the program
[12:37] <m1x10> yes but i like the situation where i will have a graph showing the speed2time
[12:37] <m1x10> i just do it for the impression if u get me
[12:38] <fsphil> yea
[12:42] <m1x10> is there any sensor that could measure speed?
[12:44] <Upu> quick question
[12:45] <Upu> will a Yaesu VX-7R be able to listen to an NTX2 ?
[12:47] <fsphil> Upu, not well - they're FM only
[12:47] <Upu> it's SSB ?
[12:47] <fsphil> m1x10, gps is the best for that unfornatually :)
[12:49] <fsphil> the way we use the ntx2 the signal is best read with an ssb radio
[12:49] <fsphil> you could tune an FM receiver into it and you'd only hear clicks
[12:49] <fsphil> or a low buzzing noise
[12:49] <Upu> ok I have someone who could lend me a VX-7R or an 897
[12:50] <Upu> Have to be the 897 I guess :)
[12:50] <Upu> just for testing if my circuit works I'll buy a smaller one myself
[12:50] <fsphil> absolutely :D good radio
[12:51] <fsphil> the 817 is the cheapest good receiver, but I did see a handheld that does ssb
[12:51] <fsphil> I mentioned it here and was told it wasn't sensitive enough for tracking, but would be fine for testing
[12:51] <Upu> thats the one I'm looking at
[12:51] <fsphil> at short range
[12:52] <Upu> we are working on a track-otron as well
[12:52] <Upu> as a side project
[12:52] <fsphil> oooh let me know how that goes - that's on my big todo list :)
[12:53] <Upu> well I have a young engineer working with us who likes making Arduino powered PoV clocks using old hard drives
[12:53] <Upu> so I decided to set him on a more useful project
[12:53] <Upu> he's already got a pair of servos linked to a digital compass
[12:54] <fsphil> interesting, so he can turn it and it follows?
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[12:55] <Upu> yep
[12:55] <Upu> needs some smoothing code
[12:56] <Upu> the plan is we have this on the roof of a car and as we drive it points at the right place
[12:56] <Upu> even if the car moves
[12:59] <fsphil> You'll have to video that in action!
[12:59] <Upu> Just have 2 mmins
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[13:02] <SpeedEvil> add a webcam + monocular
[13:03] <jcoxon> link?
[13:05] <Upu> it's really rough at the moment and the servos only do 180' so we need to code them to reset back
[13:05] <Upu> You Tube is processing
[13:06] <Upu> but the idea is if the poc works we can scale up to some larger servos
[13:06] <Upu> we need to work the maths out next to work out how to point it at the right place
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[13:07] <Upu> Try again
[13:07] <Upu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF0v31HhpDw
[13:07] <jcoxon> dl-fldigi calculates bearing
[13:09] <fsphil> that's brilliant, faster than I expected
[13:10] <Upu> yep
[13:10] <Upu> so with the compass and GPS should be able to work out where to point
[13:11] <Upu> be interesting to see if it can keep up with my driving, anyway I'll get Matt on here later on
[13:12] <Upu> on another note I notice everyone seems to send up grey gaffer tape payloads
[13:12] <Upu> http://www.gaffatape.com/Fluorescent-Gaffer-Cloth-Tape-1/default.aspx
[13:12] <Upu> :)
[13:14] <fsphil> haha, you'll not miss that in a field
[13:16] <jcoxon> cool Dan K2VOL has setup an HF rig in the states on globaltuners for use in HF balloon flights
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[13:19] <fsphil> any flights planning to use HF soon?
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[13:19] <timbobel> terry? juxta
[13:19] <timbobel> need help!
[13:19] <timbobel> PM
[13:20] <jcoxon> fsphil, nothing certain
[13:20] <jcoxon> keen to get one up
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[13:20] <timbobel> hey guys guess what
[13:20] <timbobel> the falcom is working!
[13:20] <timbobel> im in the train now
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[13:21] <timbobel> RTTY: $$TBB,26,14:20:48,52.5456,4.6588,4,T*09
[13:21] <jcoxon> timbobel, hehe are you using a breakout board? or direct wiring?
[13:21] <timbobel> RTTY: $$TBL,27,14:20:56,52.5456,4.6589,5,F*1B
[13:21] <timbobel> two different GPS'es
[13:21] <timbobel> breakout
[13:21] <timbobel> the last parameter before the checksum, is either T or F, as you can see
[13:21] <timbobel> F for Falcom and T for Tyco
[13:22] <jcoxon> okay, as the fsa03 is exposed be careful when handling it
[13:22] <timbobel> what do you mean
[13:22] <jcoxon> well it can easily be upset by static etc
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[13:22] <jcoxon> they are very sensitive
[13:22] <timbobel> well
[13:22] <timbobel> i have it covered in electrical tape
[13:22] <jcoxon> okay cool
[13:22] <timbobel> entirely, except the reset switch
[13:22] <timbobel> i covered all my modules in that yesterday
[13:23] <timbobel> for isolation and moreso so that nothing touches anything
[13:23] <timbobel> so.. almost at my destination
[13:23] <timbobel> gotta go!
[13:23] <fsphil> jcoxon, I'm still hoping to do the HF tests this weekend - are you able to receive?
[13:23] <timbobel> bye!
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[13:24] <fsphil> hmm I hadn't thought about static, I must make a little box for the fsa03
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[13:28] <Upu> This is Matt who made the mount /\
[13:29] <SpeedEvil> The pointing is a bit complex, especially if you might not be flat
[13:29] <SpeedEvil> then that screws up the compass
[13:29] <SpeedEvil> If you have a means of reading out the signal strength, you can also dither it. Go +-10 degrees, and find whenthe signal barely changes
[13:31] <fsphil> hi matt! great job
[13:31] <SpeedEvil> Indeed
[13:33] <fsphil> how tricky will it be to scale that up to something that can point a yagi?
[13:33] Action: fsphil feels dirty -- just used a goto ;-)
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: really east
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: you get stupidly large servos
[13:37] <JackNorris> Yeah just need to compensate for roll
[13:38] <jcoxon> doesn't need to be perfectly accurate
[13:38] <jcoxon> just the general direction
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> If you're driving - roads are - mostly - flat in roll.
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> You can get the GPS to give you pitch and yaw
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> Enough to compensate with anyway.
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> Even enough to point with in many cases
[13:39] <jcoxon> you could get the stupidly expensive compensated compasses
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> yeah - or just a magnetometer + cheap 3 axis accel
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> Plus a gyro if you want to keep it accurate during 4-wheel drifts.
[13:41] <jcoxon> hehe
[13:42] <jcoxon> probably best to leave it simple :-)
[13:44] <jcoxon> fsphil, sadly i won't be around this weekend
[13:44] <jcoxon> to tell the truth - won't be able to rig an antenna for at least 2 weeks
[13:44] <jcoxon> that said we could borrow some globaltuner rigs to listen in
[13:46] <fsphil> aah that might do
[13:46] <jcoxon> in the uk they are quite well placed
[13:46] <jcoxon> well for listening in to you they should be
[13:47] <fsphil> multiple radios will help give an idea of range too
[13:47] <jcoxon> yeah
[13:47] <jcoxon> i might take down my long wire now actually
[13:48] <fsphil> oh my atu has turned out to be faulty :)
[13:48] <jcoxon> or i'll forget and leave it there till it breaks and causes some sort of disaster
[13:48] <Upu> We are going to put a pitch and yaw sensor along with it
[13:48] <Upu> and GPS
[13:49] <Upu> [13:40] <SpeedEvil> Plus a gyro if you want to keep it accurate during 4-wheel drifts. <- lol yeah not sure we need to compensate for that using electronics maybe a little right foot compensation for that issue
[14:03] <fsphil> yay, integer only gps parser
[14:04] <fsphil> I'm using the entire value, 7 decimal places. probably overkill
[14:04] <SpeedEvil> Well - a degree is 111km or so
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> so 5 decimals is only 1m
[14:05] <jcoxon> we should probably allow for integer only lat/lon
[14:05] Action: SpeedEvil is surprised that the 50% horizontal accuracy error of the n900 GPS is only 2.4m (radius)
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_GPS#Accuracy
[14:06] Action: jcoxon is going to try and listen out for AO-7 's beacon today
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> I don't understand where the wierd shapes in the 99-100% range come from though.
[14:07] <SpeedEvil> systematic errors in the 40-140m range
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> I suppose I should analyse that for correlation with sat numbers
[14:08] <SpeedEvil> it might be initial 2D fix
[14:24] <DanielRichman> 13:14:01 Debug Mail: List-ID was <ukhas.googlegroups.com>
[14:24] <DanielRichman> match = classmethod(lambda s,e: str(e['List-ID']) is "<ukhas.googlegroups.com>")
[14:24] <DanielRichman> yet
[14:24] <DanielRichman> 13:14:01 Notice Mail: Email didn't match.
[14:24] <DanielRichman> I've tried several combinations of str() unicode() .strip() to not much effect; any ideas?
[14:24] <DanielRichman> q
[14:26] <jonsowman> good work on the VPS email DanielRichman
[14:26] <DanielRichman> :)
[14:28] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: seen adam's latest reply?
[14:28] <jonsowman> I think a wiki page is a good idea
[14:28] <DanielRichman> yes
[14:28] <jonsowman> shotgun linode referral when buying the UKHAS VPS btw
[14:28] <jonsowman> :P
[14:29] <DanielRichman> we don't want to jump right into it until we hear from rob & alexei
[14:29] <DanielRichman> haha
[14:29] <jonsowman> oh definitely
[14:29] <DanielRichman> shame Adam can't irc from work
[14:29] <jonsowman> hopefully alexei will see the email soon
[14:29] <DanielRichman> indeed
[14:29] <jonsowman> he probably could but doesn't dare
[14:29] <DanielRichman> :O
[14:29] <DanielRichman> your work seems to be a bit more um...
[14:29] <DanielRichman> I note that you're on IRC a fair bit :P
[14:30] <jonsowman> indeed
[14:30] <jonsowman> my work is "as long as you get what you're meant to done, we don't care"
[14:30] <DanielRichman> PDB, I choose you!
[14:30] <DanielRichman> debug my project
[14:30] <DanielRichman> haha
[14:30] <jonsowman> anyway finished now :) today was last day
[14:31] <DanielRichman> nice :) Ed has agreed; it's looking good
[14:31] <jonsowman> yup
[14:31] <DanielRichman> (Pdb) e['List-ID']
[14:31] <DanielRichman> '<ukhas.googlegroups.com>'
[14:31] <DanielRichman> (Pdb) e['List-ID'] is "<ukhas.googlegroups.com>"
[14:31] <DanielRichman> False
[14:31] <DanielRichman> what am I missing here >.<
[14:31] <jonsowman> hrm
[14:32] <DanielRichman> (Pdb) e['List-ID'] == "<ukhas.googlegroups.com>"
[14:32] <DanielRichman> True
[14:32] <DanielRichman> what.
[14:32] <jonsowman> :\
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> Why are there double quotes on one, and single quotes on the other?
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> Pdb) e['List-ID'] is "<ukhas.googlegroups.com>"
[14:33] <DanielRichman> because I'm inconsistant. I don't think it matters, does it?
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> ah
[14:33] <DanielRichman> language is python
[14:33] eroomde (836f0142@gateway/web/freenode/ip. joined #highaltitude.
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering ig it was significant
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> and you'd missed it
[14:33] <DanielRichman> hmm I'll double check
[14:34] <eroomde> afternoon tout
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> fair enough - know nothing of python
[14:34] <DanielRichman> hey eroomde
[14:34] <jonsowman> hello ed :)
[14:34] <eroomde> sup
[14:34] <jonsowman> hows things
[14:34] <eroomde> so this looks like a good idea
[14:35] <eroomde> yep fine and dandy
[14:35] <eroomde> and you?
[14:35] <jonsowman> yes all good thank you
[14:37] <eroomde> i volunteer myself to be a docum,entation bitch/nazi (depending on your pov) for this thing
[14:37] <DanielRichman> in addition to #ukhas tweets griffonbot can now track emails. Any opinions (besides from it's spam, I know)
[14:38] <DanielRichman> 13:33 < griffonbot_test> Email from Ed Moore <eam52@cam.ac.uk>: "Re: UKHAS VPS?"
[14:38] <eroomde> i've come to see the value of water tight documentation of things, even when it's incredibly boring
[14:38] <DanielRichman> ^^ an example in the testing channel
[14:38] <DanielRichman> (it posts one line when someone hits the list)
[14:38] <eroomde> where's the testing channel - ha2?
[14:38] <jcoxon> 99
[14:38] <jcoxon> its where the cool kids hang out with their bots
[14:39] <jonsowman> heh
[14:39] <jcoxon> really not that interesting - certainly not worth joining :-p
[14:39] <DanielRichman> its where we go to spam
[14:39] <jonsowman> feel like i'm missing out :P
[14:39] <eroomde> i've not been on 99 since the bad old days
[14:39] <eroomde> when we often fancied and ice cream
[14:40] <jonsowman> i fancy an ice cream
[14:40] <jonsowman> brb
[14:40] <DanielRichman> eroomde: I think it's worth waiting for rob & alexei to comment before jumping into it
[14:40] <eroomde> for sure - they have a lot of the infrastructure running on their machines atm
[14:40] <eroomde> but equally that that is the case is a good enough reason for opening everything up
[14:41] <jonsowman> true
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[14:42] <jonsowman> i like the github org idea
[14:42] <jonsowman> but not keeping flight data in it
[14:43] <juxta_> talk of a UKHAS VPS, awesome :)
[14:43] <eroomde> yeah, it's not a data store
[14:43] <jonsowman> people have a habit of use github as file hosting
[14:44] <DanielRichman> (unless there are any further objections I'll update griffonbot stable to the one that tracks emails?)
[14:44] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: in this channel?
[14:44] <DanielRichman> yes
[14:44] <jonsowman> could get spammy
[14:45] <DanielRichman> hmm I guess it will get spammy once-a month when someone sends a ukhas email that prompts a discussion
[14:45] <jonsowman> 11 emails in the last 40 mins
[14:46] <jonsowman> i realise it doesn't happen often but it's going to be really annoying when it does
[14:46] <DanielRichman> hmm
[14:46] <jonsowman> maybe limit the bot to 1msg/hour?
[14:46] <jonsowman> or just relay the first email in a discussion?
[14:47] <jonsowman> or have a !shutupforabitplz
[14:47] <DanielRichman> well ssb myself adam james ed and rjh can each shut it up without that command, but that is an idea
[14:48] <jonsowman> true
[14:48] <DanielRichman> 11 messages in 40mins is not that much when you consider how much we've been talking
[14:48] <jonsowman> yea
[14:48] <jonsowman> well see how it goes I guess
[14:48] <DanielRichman> ok. Don't bother attaching to the screen, it doesn't ctrl-c very nicely (python threads + ctrlc= eugh); just send it a sigkill or kick it
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[14:49] <jonsowman> i don't have access to cleric anyway
[14:49] <russss> python/ctrl+c is the bane of my existence
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[14:52] Action: griffonbot is GriffonBot [http://github.com/ssb/griffonbot]
[14:52] Action: griffonbot is following: #arhab #ukhas #cusf
[14:52] Action: griffonbot is tracking emails sent to ukhas@googlegroups.com
[14:54] <eroomde> hang on why?
[14:54] <eroomde> i already have 9 other things that tell me when I have an email
[14:56] <DanielRichman> well I suppose it is appropriate to the topic of the channel and only mentions ukhas emails rather than any email, but that is a fair point
[14:58] <jonsowman> github organisations is neat
[14:58] <jonsowman> :)
[14:58] <jonsowman> i like it
[14:59] <DanielRichman> if he's given you admin rights you can go ahead and add all the git regulars, including me please :)
[14:59] <jonsowman> righto
[15:01] <jonsowman> done
[15:01] <DanielRichman> groovy
[15:01] <jonsowman> eroomde: added you to ukhas org
[15:02] <jonsowman> have i missed anyone
[15:02] <DanielRichman> jonsowman: fsphil
[15:02] <jonsowman> done
[15:02] <jonsowman> sorry phil
[15:05] <griffonbot> Email from Ed Moore <eam52@cam.ac.uk>: "Re: UKHAS VPS?"
[15:06] <jonsowman> sounds awesome eroomde
[15:06] <DanielRichman> yeah definitely
[15:07] <eroomde> i forgot to say - the replication is all automagic if you want it to be
[15:07] <eroomde> it's very ajax-ey
[15:07] <eroomde> and super nice to work with
[15:08] <jonsowman> ajax is goood
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> might adding a link to the list archive be god?
[15:09] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil: you mean griffonbot ? I think we looked at that but couldn't find a way to deduce the URL (with google's conversation id) from the email headers
[15:09] <eroomde> jonsowman: thanks for the github add
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> I mean the generic archive page.
[15:09] <SpeedEvil> prolly no point
[15:10] <eroomde> i need to use github more, i began re-writing some matlab stuff in python and then graduation happened
[15:10] <eroomde> silly me
[15:10] <jonsowman> hehe
[15:14] <DanielRichman> graduation doesn't sound too difficult when you say it like that
[15:15] <eroomde> it's not difficult
[15:15] <eroomde> but it's a trade-off between spening 2 weeks partying with your friends and taking holidays, or staying inside and re-writing several thousand lines of matlab
[15:16] <jcoxon> wooohoo matlab party
[15:16] <eroomde> a happy compromise
[15:16] <jonsowman> that sounds fun
[15:16] <DanielRichman> haha
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[15:37] <jcoxon> can pcb fab houses accept not rectangular boards?
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> yes
[15:37] <jcoxon> as in - the fsa03 has that annoying circular wedge bit
[15:37] <SpeedEvil> some won't though
[15:37] <jcoxon> so you can't do a straight edge as it won't fit
[15:38] <DanielRichman> usually the will but charge for the smallest rectangle that encloses the board
[15:38] <DanielRichman> *they
[15:38] <DanielRichman> alien #2 has curved edges
[15:39] Action: jcoxon waits for A0-07
[15:40] <fsphil> what frequency jcoxon?
[15:40] <fsphil> or have I missed it
[15:40] <jcoxon> 435.105
[15:40] <jcoxon> there is meant to be a rtty beacon
[15:40] <jcoxon> but it is only semi-operational considering how old it is
[15:41] <jcoxon> at 16:03
[15:43] <russss> +/- doppler
[15:43] <russss> I think I managed to pick up a sat once or twice
[15:43] <russss> I always miss them though
[15:52] <jcoxon> i plan to pick one up today
[15:53] <jcoxon> good chance after 16:00 as 3 sats in the east
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[16:02] <fsphil> I listened into a few a while back, but the vertical I have here means i don't hear much when they're overhead
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[16:06] <fsphil> hearing anything?
[16:06] <jcoxon> not yet
[16:06] <jcoxon> peaks at :09
[16:09] <jcoxon> yup somethinh
[16:09] <jcoxon> actually no
[16:11] <fsphil> hmm it should be there
[16:11] <fsphil> brb
[16:14] <griffonbot> Email from Martin Sweeney <martin.sweeney@gmail.com>: "Logo"
[16:19] <Dently> Any flights in progress?
[16:19] <jcoxon> Dently, none right now
[16:19] <Dently> Any scheduled?
[16:20] <jcoxon> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:upcoming_launches
[16:20] <jcoxon> and
[16:20] <jcoxon> http://www.arhab.org/ARHABlaunchannouncements.html
[16:25] <Dently> Very cool, thanks.
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[16:31] <jcoxon> Dently, in teh states teh arhab list is the best
[16:31] <jcoxon> in the UK its teh ukhas one
[16:32] <Dently> Ya, I see there's one tomorrow here in the US in Nebraska.
[16:34] <jcoxon> where abouts in the US are you?
[16:36] <Dently> California
[16:38] <jcoxon> cool
[16:38] <jcoxon> i might have asked you that yesterday
[16:38] <jcoxon> asked someone from the US :-)
[16:39] <Dently> mm..maybe
[16:39] <Dently> I was asking about xbee on arduino
[16:40] <jcoxon> cool
[16:40] <Dently> I have a ham radio lic, but since I'm not active and have only a single 2meter HT, was wondering the cheapest way to go from scratch.
[16:41] <jcoxon> there is a 900mhz test flight going on in teh states on 7th
[16:41] <Dently> I see the one in TX
[16:42] <jcoxon> i think this one won't make that launch list
[16:42] <jcoxon> yeah the xbee would be a possibility
[16:42] <jcoxon> doesn't have the flexibility of other options especially compensating for temperature drift etc
[16:44] <jcoxon> this would be an option:
[16:44] <jcoxon> http://www.radiometrix.com/content/hx1
[16:45] <jcoxon> coupled with your revciever
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[16:46] <eroomde> Dently: with a 2m HT, using APRS might be the perfect solution for you
[16:47] <jcoxon> http://www.byonics.com/microtrak/mt300.php
[16:47] <Dently> jcoxon, then recieve w/ the 2m?
[16:48] <Dently> eroomde, is there a good cheap aprs tx kit or off the shelf?
[16:48] <jcoxon> yes + use the aprs network
[16:48] <jcoxon> Dently, that link is a good aprs tx kit
[16:49] <eroomde> people often buy/build something (gps and perhaps microcontroller) and then interface that to their ht and that's the transmitter
[16:49] <Dently> so it is!
[16:49] <jcoxon> Dently, but to tell the truth i reckon you could do it cheaper
[16:50] <Dently> ya I wouild need more than just a aprs. Thats why I'm looking at the arduino for a good flight comp
[16:50] <Dently> I don't plan on sending my only HT up.
[16:51] <jcoxon> i would get one of those radiometrix modules and keep you HT on the ground
[16:51] <jcoxon> connect the hx1 to the arduino
[16:51] <Dently> yes, this looks good.
[16:51] <jcoxon> http://code.google.com/p/trackuino/
[16:52] <eroomde> yes you'd basically just be building one of those microtrak units, but cheaper and learning a lot more
[16:53] <jcoxon> agreed
[16:54] <Dently> great. now on the ground side, I've never hooked my ht to a laptop. I'd need an interface and software..
[16:55] <jcoxon> what ht is it?
[16:55] <jcoxon> the ground side is usually the easy bit
[16:57] <jcoxon> Dently, US supplier: http://www.lemosint.com/radiometrix/radiometrix_details.php?itemID=209
[16:58] <Dently> It's a pretty old ...htx202??
[16:59] <Dently> c1995
[17:00] <jcoxon> hehe it looks quite old :-)
[17:00] <jcoxon> so FM only
[17:01] <Dently> yep
[17:01] <jcoxon> it looks like it can accept a 3.5mm jack into the side
[17:02] <jcoxon> a SP socket i would assume
[17:03] <jcoxon> you can easily plug that in the audio in/mic socket on your PC sound card
[17:03] <jcoxon> and use software to decode
[17:04] <eroomde> bbl
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[17:04] <Dently> on top i believe there's both mic and audio out
[17:04] <jcoxon> audio out then
[17:04] <jcoxon> easy easy
[17:04] <Dently> just software then?
[17:04] <jcoxon> yup
[17:05] <Dently> I was trying to get that working in the 90's with no luck..
[17:05] <jcoxon> for APRS use http://www.xastir.org/wiki/Main_Page
[17:05] <jcoxon> what i suggest Dently is to get the cable, install xastir and then tune into 144.390
[17:06] <jcoxon> and see if you can pick up some aprs transmissions
[17:06] <jcoxon> i'm pretty sure you'll hear something
[17:06] <Dently> awesome. I will try that like immediately. after work. heh
[17:07] <Dently> great info, thanks
[17:07] <jcoxon> we don't use aprs in the UK for balloons so my knowledge isn't great
[17:07] <jcoxon> good luck
[17:07] <jcoxon> report back with results!
[17:07] <Dently> I 'll be back probably until I'm annoying everyone.
[17:14] <jcoxon> hehe
[17:15] <jcoxon> how cool would it be to balloon aprs off the ISS
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> I kept meaning to work ISS using a laser pointer.
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> Laser pointer + external earth-facing cams + NASA TV.
[17:16] <Dently> interesting idea
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[17:25] <jcoxon> wow amateur radio + websites is such a bad idea
[17:25] <jcoxon> hams make the worst websites
[17:25] <DanielRichman> hahaha
[17:26] <jcoxon> apologies to hams
[17:26] <DanielRichman> it's true
[17:26] <russss> jcoxon: although www.gb3ok.com did use my photo!
[17:26] <russss> (without permission...)
[17:28] <jcoxon> hehe indeed
[17:31] <m1x10> I have my ublox based APRS assembled
[17:31] <m1x10> :)
[17:31] <jcoxon> m1x10, good work
[17:31] <jcoxon> is that using the aprs shield
[17:31] <jcoxon> ?
[17:32] <m1x10> http://imagebin.org/107437
[17:32] <m1x10> no this is the transmitter for the balloon
[17:33] <russss> gb3ok.com is probably the least offensive of the amateur radio sites I've seen tbh
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[17:33] <m1x10> the radioshield will be build in a aprs receiver
[17:33] <russss> I am actually really going to get around to organising foundation courses at the hackspace soon.
[17:33] <jcoxon> m1x10, how are you doing the ax.25 packets?
[17:33] <m1x10> in software
[17:33] <jcoxon> you're own code?
[17:34] <m1x10> not exactly, a spanish guy gave it to me
[17:34] <jcoxon> publishable?
[17:34] <m1x10> y
[17:34] <m1x10> sure
[17:34] <jcoxon> as thats pretty much what Dently wants to make
[17:34] <jcoxon> actually its exactly it
[17:34] <jcoxon> :-)
[17:34] <m1x10> it does also AFSK modulation in arduino pin 3
[17:35] <m1x10> and then it goes to radiometrix
[17:35] <jcoxon> I see
[17:35] <jcoxon> do you have a filter on pin3?
[17:35] <m1x10> http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=SW2HYX-11&limit=50&view=normal
[17:35] <m1x10> no nothing
[17:35] <jcoxon> interesting - any chance i could see the code?
[17:36] <m1x10> yes sure
[17:36] <m1x10> want my code?
[17:36] <jcoxon> or the original
[17:36] <m1x10> ok waitg
[17:37] <m1x10> http://code.google.com/p/trackuino/source/browse/#svn/trunk/src
[17:37] <m1x10> ax25.cpp
[17:37] <jcoxon> oh yeah i saw this
[17:37] <jcoxon> cool
[17:38] <m1x10> i now try to figure out how to firmly stick the antenna connector in the aprs system you sew in the pic
[17:39] <m1x10> i tried strong glue and failed
[17:39] <jcoxon> m1x10, i really hope you aren't going to fly with breadboard
[17:39] <jcoxon> you'll need to solder some of that stuff
[17:39] <m1x10> i tried soldering it on usb of arduino and still failed
[17:39] <m1x10> jcoxon, it is rock
[17:39] <jcoxon> eek
[17:40] <m1x10> i will throw it from the balconi and wont happend anything
[17:40] <m1x10> i use some 2side parer glue
[17:40] <jcoxon> okay :-S
[17:40] <jcoxon> i'd used stripboard instead
[17:40] <m1x10> the breadboards have some glue layer that is too strong
[17:41] <m1x10> i dont know how to make my own pcb
[17:41] <jcoxon> or even get a protoboard with the holes and solder to that
[17:41] <jcoxon> e.g. http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=1918&C=Froogle&U=1918&T=Module
[17:41] <m1x10> i got a protoboard and on it i have stacked the 2 breadboard !
[17:41] <jcoxon> so its just like the breadboard
[17:41] <jcoxon> but instead you solder to it
[17:42] <jcoxon> (you can cut it down to size
[17:42] <jcoxon> )
[17:42] <m1x10> i dont want to solder anything :(
[17:42] <jcoxon> okay
[17:42] <jcoxon> just be careful
[17:42] <m1x10> im not that experienced like you !
[17:43] <m1x10> careful about what?
[17:43] <jcoxon> flying with breadboard and pins stuck into it
[17:43] <m1x10> being broken into parts?
[17:43] <jcoxon> they might wobble free
[17:43] <m1x10> ok
[17:43] <m1x10> :P
[17:44] <jcoxon> i would certainly solder coax onto the RF out and RF gnf of the radio
[17:44] <jcoxon> to attach the antenna
[17:44] <jcoxon> the breadboard traces are not very good and carrying RF
[17:45] <m1x10> will have that in mind
[17:45] <jcoxon> and -> at *
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[17:46] <m1x10> :)
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[17:48] <m1x10> dont forget im designing the payload for water landing, it wont break easily falling in the water
[17:48] <m1x10> the antenna will point at fishes! that would be funny :)
[17:48] <jcoxon> m1x10, of for the radio thats not my concern - you will get a stronger signal if you use coax
[17:48] <m1x10> o really?
[17:49] <jcoxon> well if the RF out goes via the breadboard it will lose some of its strength
[17:49] <m1x10> with this stuff now i get caught at 75km away
[17:49] <m1x10> and think im behind walls
[17:49] <jcoxon> just my advice
[17:49] <fsphil> AO-51 should be over head now, 435.3 MHz FM
[17:50] <m1x10> sure thx
[17:53] <jcoxon> i don't have a W view fsphil
[17:53] <m1x10> jcoxon
[17:53] <fsphil> it should be fairly high up
[17:53] <fsphil> though I'm hearing nothing
[17:53] <m1x10> how is the word in eng to say that those data are correct
[17:53] <m1x10> meaning have no parity errrors
[17:54] <m1x10> no valid
[17:54] <m1x10> something else
[17:54] <jcoxon> its valid?
[17:54] <m1x10> i cant download it to my head
[17:55] <m1x10> its on the tip of my tongue as I was teached to say :)
[17:55] <jcoxon> hehe
[17:55] <jcoxon> i'm not really sure what word you are looking for
[17:55] <m1x10> something else for valid
[17:55] <m1x10> cmon
[17:55] <jcoxon> valid, correct
[17:55] <m1x10> im not brit!
[17:55] <m1x10> no correct
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[17:56] <jcoxon> fsphil, typical my washing machine goes into spin cycle
[17:57] <fsphil> lol
[17:57] <fsphil> very odd, I don't hear anything -- I usually get some chatter
[17:57] <jcoxon> nothing here
[17:58] <jcoxon> i might try AO-07 again
[17:58] <fsphil> when does it come around again?
[17:58] <jcoxon> 17:53:03 18:09:35 18:01:17 67 ENE 29.400 - 29.500 MHz
[17:58] <jcoxon> so now
[18:02] <fsphil> there's a faint line on the waterfall, coming and going
[18:02] <jcoxon> freq?
[18:03] <fsphil> dial 435.104.70, offset 1537 hz
[18:04] <fsphil> it's drifting a bit, but no big doppler effect
[18:04] <fsphil> could be local
[18:05] <russss> if there's no doppler then it's definitely not a satellite
[18:05] <fsphil> yea
[18:05] <fsphil> strange that I'd hear nothing, it must be a very weak signal
[18:09] <jcoxon> nothing
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[18:12] <er1k757> hola, high-altituders
[18:12] <er1k757> any advice for a balloon novice considering using hydrogen over helium?
[18:12] <jonsowman> dont!
[18:12] <er1k757> ("don't" is a valid answer)
[18:12] <jonsowman> haha
[18:12] <er1k757> :)
[18:13] <jonsowman> its sole advantage is cost
[18:13] <er1k757> yeah - for sure
[18:13] <jonsowman> but it's really not safe
[18:13] <er1k757> we're trying to come in under a budget for a contest of sorts
[18:13] <er1k757> and yeah, that was the only reason we'd considered it
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> What do you mean by 'it's really not safe'
[18:13] <jonsowman> well
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> With fairly minimal precautions, I don't see a whole lot of risk.
[18:13] <jonsowman> as in carrying around a large bottle of hydrogen is not as safe as heloum
[18:14] <jonsowman> *helium, even
[18:14] <er1k757> these are the prices I found when I talked to Airgas about getting a cylinder:
[18:14] <er1k757> Helium HE-200 $246.83 (219 cu/ft)
[18:14] <er1k757> Hydrogen HY-100 $61.25 (176 cu/ft)
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> For example, wear clothing that can take having 100g of flaming balloon thrown at you worst-case
[18:14] <jonsowman> depends on transport arrangements
[18:14] <jonsowman> er1k757: whats the project?
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQwHU8vhXY8 for a safety perspective
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> err
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> not that
[18:15] <er1k757> yeah - I'm not experienced in transporting hydrogen, but the guy at Airgas did say that 'it's safe, just don't leave it rolling around the bed of your pickup for a month'
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> argh
[18:15] <er1k757> jonsowman: hackerspaces in space
[18:15] <jcoxon> i don't think its that bad
[18:15] <er1k757> project site: http://www.workshop88.com/space/
[18:15] <jcoxon> sure you need more precautions
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> damn, I had it bookmarked
[18:15] <er1k757> yeah, we're prepared to take some additional precautions (including buying a surplus fire suit)
[18:16] <jonsowman> nice SpeedEvil
[18:16] <er1k757> though I do see quite a few weather balloons launched with it, and they seem to take fewer precautions
[18:16] <jcoxon> er1k757, for a first launch i'd advise against it
[18:16] <er1k757> seems like as long as you're grounded while working on it
[18:16] <jcoxon> 2nd launch onwards fine
[18:16] <er1k757> jcoxon: yeah, you're obviously right
[18:17] <jonsowman> well if you're prepared for the risk you're taking
[18:17] <er1k757> i was trying to convince myself that this is a reasonably good idea, but it seems like it's not
[18:17] <jcoxon> there have been no reported incidents to my knowledge to do with amateur balloons
[18:17] <jcoxon> and i suspect within 5 years we'll all use H2
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[18:17] <jonsowman> there is little, if any, altitude advantage fyi
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQvpK9cl0No
[18:17] <jcoxon> as He is just going to become too expensive
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> that one I meant
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> you get basically a .5s balloon-diameter bonfire, and the balloon thrown randomly around
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> if it ignites.
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> The flaming balloon thrown
[18:18] <jcoxon> i reckon its pretty safe
[18:18] <jcoxon> you have to get the mix really wrong to make it go bang bang
[18:18] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> Basic safety.
[18:19] <jcoxon> otherwise it'll burn around the outside
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> Make sure the balloon is empty before filling.
[18:19] <jcoxon> er1k757, well after your first launch you'll be hooked
[18:19] <jcoxon> then move on the H2
[18:19] <er1k757> hah!
[18:19] <SpeedEvil> Don't wear flammable stuff - just in case. Wear facemask. Keep bucket of water nearby
[18:19] <jcoxon> then get back to us with your success!
[18:20] <jonsowman> as long as you know the risks and take precautions then it should be alright I guess
[18:20] <jonsowman> probably wise advice to use helium for launch 1
[18:20] <er1k757> will do, thanks for the insight. if you see some idiot get incinerated on youtube, you'll know I did something wrong..
[18:20] <jcoxon> yeah
[18:20] <jonsowman> hehe
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> My (somewhat nebulous) plans for a launch involve natural gas.
[18:20] <jcoxon> step 1 in safety - make sure youtube camera man is safe
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> As I have a nice tap in the kitchen.
[18:20] <jcoxon> to record disaster
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[18:21] <er1k757> anyone ever try using the helium from places like Party City?
[18:21] <er1k757> i'm assuming they must get their tanks filled from places like Airgas/Praxair or something with balloon-grade gas?
[18:22] <jcoxon> er1k757, lots of us are UK based
[18:22] <er1k757> oh, ok!
[18:22] <jcoxon> it'll be cheaper going to the bigger suppliers
[18:22] <jcoxon> rather then the party shops
[18:22] <SpeedEvil> 'balloon' gas in disposable cylinders is generally extremely expensive.
[18:22] <jcoxon> oh and you really don't need scientific grade
[18:23] <jonsowman> yea the 98% stuff is fine
[18:23] <er1k757> yeah.. I was skeptical about the party place as well - but I called them, and it sounds like they'll rent a large cylinder of it for $99USD. She wasn't sure how many cubic meters of helium that was though, so I've sent my wife on a recon mission
[18:23] <jonsowman> party cylinders are 10l or 20l i think (around here anyway)
[18:23] <jcoxon> er1k757, where is your hackspace?
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Zinco-Polvere-32-m-Zinc-Powder-/110484403406?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Utensili_da_Modellismo&hash=item19b96234ce hmm.
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> I do have a really huge container of sulpuric acid.
[18:24] <SpeedEvil> (no, I wouldn't actually use powdered like thaT)
[18:25] <jcoxon> fsphil, i'm tempted at some point to give it a good over say AO-51
[18:26] <er1k757> jcoxon: we're in Norfolk, VA, USA
[18:26] <fsphil> the next pass a better one for you jcoxon?
[18:26] <er1k757> http://757labs.org - feel free to stop by if you're in the area!
[18:26] <fsphil> oh, the next pass isn't for a while :)
[18:26] Action: jcoxon is in the UK :-p
[18:27] <jcoxon> fsphil, oh i mean another day - am out this evening
[18:27] <fsphil> lemme know when, I'll have a go myself
[18:27] <jcoxon> this dual band stuff is annoying
[18:27] <griffonbot> Email from Neil Baker <neil@futurity.co.uk>: "Re: UKHAS VPS?"
[18:28] <Dently> Helium here 218 cu/ft = $79.20
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> Interesting! http://mattson.creighton.edu/History_Gas_Chemistry/Kipps.html
[18:28] <Dently> but that youtube vid doesn't look bad at all
[18:29] <jonsowman> that griffonbot thing is pointless
[18:29] <jonsowman> my email client already told me 30 seconds before
[18:29] <SpeedEvil> You need a mole of zinc to make a mole of H I suppose, so 2 moles to make H2.
[18:29] <fsphil> its a shame the uplink is 2m, I don't have a yagi for that
[18:29] <fsphil> though I could make one
[18:30] <jcoxon> fsphil, yeah i just got a 70cm yagi
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> So 1g zinc = 0.5 H2 Unless I've screwd up.
[18:31] <DanielRichman> have you factored in the RAM of H and Zn?
[18:31] <SpeedEvil> no
[18:31] <SpeedEvil> I was just assuming one atom of zinc was used up for each H produced
[18:31] <DanielRichman> 1mole zinc = 0.5 moles h2 doesn't mean that 1g zing = 0.5g H2
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> oops
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> 0.5l H2
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> As 1g of zinc is about 1/30 mole, and 1/30 mole is about a litre, and half a litre as it's diatomic
[18:33] <DanielRichman> bucket chemistry there :P
[18:33] <DanielRichman> Zn's ram is 66 so 1/30 is close; and there are 1mole gas = 24dm so 1/30 is also close
[18:34] <DanielRichman> *65
[18:34] <SpeedEvil> Argh
[18:35] <SpeedEvil> Atomic number - that I remembered != atomic mass
[18:35] <DanielRichman> (1/65)/2 * 24 = ~0.18 litres per gram of zinc ?
[18:36] <SpeedEvil> sounds about ballpark
[18:36] <DanielRichman> hold that; dm^3 != litre, does it?
[18:37] <DanielRichman> oh actually it does
[18:37] <DanielRichman> yeah
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> So a kilo of zinc - which is about 6 quid on ebay gets you 180l of H2.
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> Another 4 quid or so for the acid.
[18:39] <jcoxon> so we should use the zinc for ballast
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> But then you've got the added hastle perhaps of drying it
[18:39] <jcoxon> pump in the H2SO4
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:39] <jcoxon> make a a bit more lift and lose some mass
[18:39] <jcoxon> perfect
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> Because flying bottles of concentrated acid - what could possibly go wrong?
[18:39] <jcoxon> exactly
[18:40] <DanielRichman> :D
[18:40] <DanielRichman> interesting though, you could have a lump of Zn inside the balloon and then react it to add more H2 during flight.
[18:40] <DanielRichman> Or if you had a very weak acid you could counter the leak
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[18:41] <DanielRichman> as it would produce h2 v. slowly
[18:41] <SpeedEvil> Clearly lithium would be better, as it's lighter.
[18:41] <DanielRichman> and then you don't need the concentrated acids
[18:41] <jcoxon> we could use up our spent batteries
[18:41] <DanielRichman> you just get nice strong alkalis left over instead
[18:42] <jcoxon> bbl
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[18:56] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil: if I ground this 10bit adc it just reads 0s
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[19:09] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:10] <SpeedEvil> Less decoupling will fix that.
[19:10] <DanielRichman> hah
[19:12] <DanielRichman> the avalanche noise RNG I linked to you yesterday (I am not sure if I've built it correctly or if it works) seems to generate some noise. A floating ADC pin seems relativly stable. If I touch or couple myself to the pin through the plastic covering of a wire then it goes crazy - but predictable; it seems to read 0,0,1023,1023,0,0 (ish) etc. the best result so far appears to be a random long wire as an antenna attache
[19:12] <DanielRichman> but that doesn't really make for a good RNG as it can be easily interfered with
[19:33] <timbobel> ow big is the change my 1500g balloon with 1kg payload will reach >32km
[19:34] <fsphil> very good
[19:35] <fsphil> have you seen the ascent rate calculator? http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/calc/
[19:35] <sbasuita> DanielRichman: wouldn't it be easier to use clock drift rather than having dedicated rng circuits?
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> clock drift is probematic
[19:35] <fsphil> yay, I can hear AO-51
[19:35] <fsphil> sorta
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> unless it's really well decoupled, you tend to get lockin
[19:36] <SpeedEvil> Where instead of the clocks 'free running' at 123:149.21, they will lock at 123:149, then jump to 123:148
[19:43] <DanielRichman> sbasuita: rng circuits are a pain 'cause its quite hard to know if they're working or not
[19:43] <DanielRichman> ie. whether the noise is coming from your psu or the intended source of garbage
[19:43] <DanielRichman> or direct pickup
[19:48] <timbobel> on the NTX2, can i directly connect the EN to the Vcc?
[19:48] <timbobel> recommendations?
[19:50] <DanielRichman> I pulled it high through a 10k resistor
[19:50] <m1x10> I got a new issue with fsa03. Its working nice and sometimes I loose my lock for some minutes. When I get back a lock instead of having the new data im still getting the unfixed ones. I tried uart.flush() but nothing seems to happen.
[19:55] <m1x10> I read the uart every 8 secs
[19:56] <m1x10> but i disable GGA before i go to sleep
[19:57] <timbobel> is there an ascent rate calcuator
[19:57] <m1x10> hi timbobel
[19:57] <timbobel> hi
[19:58] <m1x10> what happened with fsa eventually?
[20:18] <fsphil> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/calc/
[20:18] <fsphil> ascent rate calculator ^^
[20:18] <m1x10> fsphil thats yours?
[20:19] <sbasuita> m1x10: i think that was written by Randomskk
[20:20] <m1x10> ok
[20:25] <m1x10> does anyone have arduino code for temp sensor DS18B20 ?
[20:39] <DanielRichman> I have code for the DS18S20
[20:40] <DanielRichman> is that what you meant?
[20:40] <DanielRichman> ( m1x10 )
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[20:41] <m1x10> its from sparkfun ?
[20:41] <DanielRichman> no I got it for free via Maxim samples
[20:41] <m1x10> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=245
[20:41] <m1x10> seems to be the same.
[20:42] <DanielRichman> well it's a B vs an S
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[20:42] <DanielRichman> m1x10: how many do you have?
[20:42] <m1x10> I got the one from sparkfun. My datasheet writes the S. should be same series.
[20:43] <m1x10> hmm
[20:43] <fsphil> I'll be using the same sensor, but I haven't coded that part yet
[20:43] <m1x10> looking closer u r right
[20:43] <m1x10> i got 2 of them
[20:44] <DanielRichman> it's different
[20:44] <DanielRichman> it has moar bits of precision
[20:44] <DanielRichman> m1x10: have a look at http://github.com/danielrichman/avr/blob/master/xplain-x128a1/dac_domex_temperature.c
[20:44] <m1x10> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8366
[20:44] <m1x10> that u got
[20:45] <DanielRichman> no.
[20:45] <DanielRichman> I have the DS18S20 not the DS18S20-PAR
[20:45] <fsphil> hmm, mine isn't the -PAR version either
[20:46] <m1x10> ok then :)
[20:46] <DanielRichman> m1x10: that code up there is for the DS18S20. It is specific in that it assumes there only to be 8 bits of precision to the extent t hat it will error out on your sensor where there are more (see SIGN CHECK)
[20:46] <m1x10> ok
[20:46] <DanielRichman> furthermore that code assumes you are connecting vcc and gnd rather than trying to use parasitic power
[20:46] <m1x10> :p
[20:46] <DanielRichman> also that code is only of use when there is only one sensor on the bus
[20:46] <DanielRichman> since it uses the skiprom command
[20:47] <m1x10> i see
[20:47] <DanielRichman> finally that code is written for an XMEGA not a MEGA so the #defines temp_release temp_pullow and temp_read will need to be changed to their MEGA counterparts
[20:47] <m1x10> better i find someones who uses the same exactly
[20:47] <DanielRichman> yeah
[20:47] <DanielRichman> I don't know if the B20 has been used before
[20:47] <DanielRichman> the S20 is popular
[20:48] <m1x10> someone here suggested me the DS18B20
[20:48] <m1x10> i think it was juxta
[20:48] <DanielRichman> quite a few people release their code online
[20:48] <DanielRichman> just go hunting for it
[20:48] <m1x10> he might have the code
[20:48] <m1x10> :P
[20:49] <m1x10> ahh why?
[20:49] <Upu> http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/images/20100723_D2010_0723_D867_50.jpg
[20:49] <Upu> thats big
[20:49] <m1x10> lol Upu
[20:50] <m1x10> i wish i could work in nasa. at least as a clean service !! haha
[20:51] <fsphil> ah, funnily enough I was just reading http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2010-252&cid=release_2010-252
[20:51] <Upu> the temp sensors ?
[20:51] <fsphil> poor Spirit
[20:51] <Upu> I use the DS18 thingy
[20:51] <Upu> http://milesburton.com/index.php?title=Dallas_Temperature_Control_Library#Supported_Devices
[20:51] <Upu> that's the library I'm using
[20:51] <Upu> you can get a pair free from Maxim as well
[20:52] <Upu> occasionally they error when you initialise and you get a -127 but just catch it in your initialisation and reset them
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[21:54] <griffonbot> @nearsys: Launching in Omaha tomorrow. Look for KD4STH-8. Thanks Mark and NSTAR. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/19938698303]
[21:58] <m1x10> gnite ppl
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[22:32] <timbobel> juxta here?
[22:34] <DanielRichman> I can't see him
[22:35] <timbobel> sheit
[22:35] <timbobel> i am using Fat16.h library.. but it only works when i have the serial cable(usb) connected.. doesnt do crap when its on batterys
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[22:44] <Laurenceb> hi
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> hi
[22:45] <Laurenceb> hi SpeedEvil
[22:45] Action: Laurenceb was thinking about crazy space stuff
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> Yogic flying?
[22:46] <Laurenceb> orbital rings are practical using mylar film as the ring
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> orbital rings?
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> For what purpose?
[22:46] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_ring
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> you mean earth-circling ones?
[22:46] <Laurenceb> for lanch
[22:46] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> the ring is the easy bit
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> how are you perturbing it?
[22:47] <Laurenceb> about 8 tonnes of ring to 1 ton payload for leo
[22:47] <Laurenceb> electrostatic
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> that sounds like one damn huge field
[22:48] <Laurenceb> curved attrator about 1mm away
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> And I'm not sure flashover isn't an issue
[22:48] <Laurenceb> its high vacuum at 400km , AIUI that helps
[22:48] <SpeedEvil> Ah - 1mm with 10km/s velocity. What could possibly go wrong.
[22:49] <SpeedEvil> yes - but you're looking at what - gigavolts/m
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[22:50] <Laurenceb> tens of mv
[22:52] <SpeedEvil> How do you get it an actual cylinder - not warping?
[22:52] <Laurenceb> well actually I was thinking aluminised mylar
[22:53] <Laurenceb> then lots of little electrodes, inducing charges in the aluminium
[22:53] <Laurenceb> ie + - + - with the electrodes
[22:53] <SpeedEvil> I mean in the 45 min when it's not next to your station
[22:53] <Laurenceb> oh you let it warp
[22:54] <Laurenceb> thats the tricky bit, deployment - the stations have to be in orbit with the ring
[22:54] <Laurenceb> then they hang off the bottom of the ring and slow themselves down to stationary
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> Or you hold it up on a plurality of beanstalks.
[22:54] <Laurenceb> heh
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> I'd wonder about x-prizes.
[22:56] <Laurenceb> two stations capable of launching 10 tonnes each would mean a total mass in orbit of <200 tonnes I think
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> 'Produce a method of producing 45MPa/Kg/m^3 fibre at under a price of $10M/ton, and you get a hundred million $
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> I've probably blown the units.
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> 50GPa@1300Kg/m^3
[22:57] <Laurenceb> space elevators is a silly idea IMO - rotovator with zero relative velocity is half the MPa/Kg/m^3
[22:57] <Laurenceb> also way shorter
[22:58] <SpeedEvil> I have already written my 40 line awk simulator for space elevators, so it is the only solution I can back.
[22:58] <SpeedEvil> The nice bit about space elevators in principle is that you can bootstrap them.
[22:58] <Laurenceb> sounds right for non tapered
[22:58] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:58] <SpeedEvil> No - for tapered
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> you need to hit about that figure to get a payload ratio of 1:30
[22:59] <Laurenceb> tapered you can get that down to 15GPA@1300
[22:59] <Laurenceb> with a ratio of 500 to one
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[22:59] <Laurenceb> thats what I found
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> sounds right
[22:59] <Laurenceb> best avaliable filament atm is PBO - 6GPa@1340
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> Singlewall aligned carbon nanofibre is around 230GPa theoretical @1300 IIRC
[23:01] <Laurenceb> I heard lab tests had found they were actually way lower
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> I mean in theory, of ideal.
[23:01] <Laurenceb> PBO filament will make a payload ration 750 to one payload ratio stationary rotovator
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> IIRC 35GPa nanotube has been demonstrated 5 years back
[23:01] <Laurenceb> about 500 to one if you use a subsonic plane
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> But that was a couple of um thick bundle 35um long
[23:01] <Laurenceb> interesting
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> Scaling up a trillion times may have issues.
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> It's the sort of thing that someone can find a wacky production method tomorrow, which would be fun.
[23:03] <SpeedEvil> For example, if you fart into the chamber before using it, your yields rise 40000%, but only if you've eaten the right sort of curry.
[23:03] <Laurenceb> lol
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> Even rockets have a hell of a way to go.
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> afk - washing up
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[23:19] <SpeedEvil> Thoughts in passing.
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> Atomic oxygen is going to _eat_ it
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> As is UV
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> afk again
[23:24] <timbobel> i just went out into the fields with the falcom
[23:25] <timbobel> testing and logging waiting for the led to blink
[23:25] <timbobel> i now know what it feels like taking your disabled/retarded dog out for a walk
[23:25] <timbobel> no lock, clear sky, gazillions of stars
[23:25] <timbobel> i could almost fysically SEE the sattelites
[23:27] <timbobel> blast i've lost my audience
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> We hear you!
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> (we're just ignoring you)
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[23:35] <fsphil> it should lock within a minute, you might have a faulty unit
[23:43] <timbobel> :(
[23:47] <timbobel> cant it just be that the modules sucks
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[00:00] --- Sat Jul 31 2010