highaltitude.log.20100721

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[00:10] <stilldavid> what about sparkfun?
[00:10] <Randomskk> they're pretty cool dudes and don't afraid of anything?
[00:11] <stilldavid> oh yeah, we had another blog post today
[00:11] <Randomskk> there is a new and way improved version of the predictor coming up soon, but you guys should use the whole dl thing too ;o
[00:11] <Randomskk> http://spacenear.us/tracker/ pretty
[00:11] <Randomskk> even does predictons on the fly as data comes in
[00:12] <stilldavid> oh, pretty
[00:12] <stilldavid> I'm hoping to launch again mid/late August
[00:13] <Randomskk> hehe if you zoom right in on the end of the track
[00:13] <Randomskk> you can see where it landed in the field
[00:13] <Randomskk> and then where we picked it up and walked it over to the car, parked by the field
[00:13] <stilldavid> that's rad
[00:13] <Randomskk> plus the last known position at 393m before we picked its signal up again a few meters further on in the field
[00:13] <stilldavid> I like the chase car
[00:14] <Randomskk> that's really easy to add if you have a gps dongle, I made a python script in about five minutes in the car as we set off
[00:14] <Randomskk> http://gist.github.com/479637 essentially
[00:14] <fsphil> gives new meaning to portable programming
[00:14] <stilldavid> I think I can use the dongle from last flight on the car
[00:14] <stilldavid> it's got a mag-mount and all
[00:15] <Randomskk> yup, I had a magmount
[00:15] <stilldavid> I used it to log all the pics on this as well: http://vimeo.com/9666707
[00:15] <Randomskk> jonsowman in here threw it at me and went "randomskk! chase car!"
[00:15] <Randomskk> python makes doing something like that very easy
[00:16] <stilldavid> I wish I used python more
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[00:17] <stilldavid> stupid sparkfun using php for everything :P
[00:17] <Randomskk> :P
[00:19] <fsphil> nothing wrong with php, when used correctly :)
[00:20] <Randomskk> definitely
[00:20] <Randomskk> but it is very very easy to use incorrectly
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[00:22] <fsphil> yes, very
[00:22] <fsphil> guilty of it myself
[00:22] <stilldavid> we're slowly making it better
[00:23] <stilldavid> our implementation of it, that is.
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[04:58] <natrium42> stilldavid, doesn't sparkfun use oscommerce?
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[08:35] <m1x10> hi all
[08:37] <jonsowman_work> morning
[08:38] <m1x10> found this sensor
[08:38] <m1x10> http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/950796-pressure-sensor-ss-cap-8-dip-mpvz5010g7u.html
[08:38] <m1x10> pressure sensor
[08:38] <m1x10> is it good for a 5V arduino ?
[08:40] <jonsowman_work> well yes
[08:40] <jonsowman_work> it only goes up to 1.45 psi though
[08:40] <jonsowman_work> which is what, 0.1bar
[08:41] <m1x10> the sparkfun sensor is from 300 to 700 hPa
[08:42] <m1x10> 1.25psi = 86hPa
[08:43] <jonsowman_work> i assume this is absolute pressure
[08:43] <jonsowman_work> might be gauge i suppose
[08:43] <m1x10> yes its gauge
[08:43] <m1x10> that means abs?
[08:43] <jonsowman_work> gauge is not the same as absolute
[08:43] <m1x10> :(
[08:46] <m1x10> can someone explain the physics about why there is a connection with temp and pressure
[08:46] <jonsowman_work> ideal gas relationships
[08:46] <jonsowman_work> PV = mRT
[08:46] <jonsowman_work> we flew the MPXH6115A6U on apex-ii
[08:46] <jonsowman_work> goes down to 115mb absolute
[08:47] <jonsowman_work> 2nd graph on this page:
[08:47] <jonsowman_work> http://www.hexoc.com/pages/apex/apex-ii/data.php
[08:49] <jonsowman_work> free sample as well
[08:49] <jonsowman_work> well, "free"
[08:49] <jonsowman_work> $5 handling fee
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[08:51] <m1x10> I see that 115mb = 115hPa
[08:51] <m1x10> mb is same as hPa ?
[08:51] <jonsowman_work> yes
[08:51] <m1x10> ok
[08:52] <jonsowman_work> just to be super-awkward
[08:52] <m1x10> can u tell me why there is a connection between temp and pressure ?
[08:52] <jonsowman_work> see above
[08:52] <jonsowman_work> ideal gas relationships
[08:52] <jonsowman_work> PV = mRT
[08:52] <m1x10> ah ok.
[08:53] <jonsowman_work> so for fixed mass, volume and 'R', an increase in temperature must equal an increase in pressure
[08:54] <m1x10> oh thx for the simple answer line
[08:55] <m1x10> I just want to undestand this in molecule level
[08:56] <m1x10> eg.. "heating that molecules cause them to ...." something like that, if Im understand-able :p
[09:00] <m1x10> where did you buy this press sensor jonson?
[09:00] <jonsowman_work> freescale
[09:01] <m1x10> I see it takes 4.75 - 5.25 V
[09:01] <m1x10> thats good for 5V ard
[09:01] <jonsowman_work> yea
[09:01] <jonsowman_work> analogue out
[09:01] <jonsowman_work> we stuck it on a 12-bit adc
[09:02] <m1x10> wonderful
[09:02] <jonsowman_work> they take a while to arrive though
[09:02] <m1x10> the values are just the result in mbar? or need some calculations?
[09:02] <jonsowman_work> there is a constant of propotionality
[09:03] <jonsowman_work> sensor Vout is linear against pressure
[09:03] <Randomskk> m1x10: heating molecules gives them more energy, so they move around more energetically, so they impact with the walls of the container harder, so the walls of the container feel more force, so there is more pressure
[09:03] <m1x10> oh Randomskk
[09:03] <m1x10> superb
[09:04] <Randomskk> where 'the container' could also be the sensing membrane on your sensor
[09:04] <jonsowman_work> so there's a constant offset and a constant multiplier
[09:04] <jonsowman_work> hi Randomskk :)
[09:04] <Randomskk> yo
[09:04] <jonsowman_work> IRC at work? me? nooo ¬.¬
[09:04] <m1x10> very simple and easy to understand answer. thank you.
[09:04] <jonsowman_work> you at work today?
[09:05] <Randomskk> not atm
[09:05] <m1x10> jonson I might steal you arduino code for the sensor. ok?
[09:05] <Randomskk> m1x10: it's simple and easy to understand because it's a very, very rough model of what actually happens
[09:05] <Randomskk> there's a lot more detail and complication involved in reality
[09:05] <Randomskk> but, you get the idea
[09:05] <jonsowman_work> m1x10: we didn't use an arduino
[09:06] <m1x10> jonson I mean mostly the calculations
[09:06] <jonsowman_work> yeh go for it
[09:06] <jonsowman_work> look at the Pressure entry in : http://github.com/mattbrejza/APEX/blob/master/XML/apexii_FINAL.xml
[09:06] <m1x10> Randomskk, sure I don't doubt
[09:06] <Randomskk> m1x10: if you start typing someone's name, like "jo", then press tab, it will usually complete the rest of it for you
[09:06] <m1x10> ah
[09:06] <m1x10> lol
[09:06] <m1x10> lol2
[09:06] <m1x10> lol^5
[09:06] <m1x10> jonsowman_work
[09:07] <m1x10> easy
[09:07] <m1x10> cool
[09:07] <jonsowman_work> :)
[09:07] <m1x10> so many years on IRC and didnt know that
[09:07] <m1x10> stupid little m1x10
[09:07] <Randomskk> it does make life easier
[09:07] <m1x10> now it explains how other typed the long and difficult nicks so fast
[09:07] <Randomskk> most things can be tab completed
[09:08] <Randomskk> for instance, filenames and directories on a windows command line
[09:08] <m1x10> ok, I use that on linux
[09:08] <m1x10> but didnt though its working here
[09:08] <m1x10> thought*
[09:09] <Randomskk> it works in all sorts of places
[09:10] <m1x10> heh
[09:10] <m1x10> I think I will dedicate the first flight to this channel
[09:11] <m1x10> too much knoweledge accuired here
[09:11] <m1x10> <scaling>0.2713336047</scaling>
[09:11] <m1x10> <offset>105.5555556</offset>
[09:11] <m1x10> <unit></unit>
[09:11] <m1x10> <dp>0</dp>
[09:11] <m1x10> jonsowman
[09:11] <jonsowman_work> yeh that's the one
[09:12] <m1x10> which one of these is the true mb value?
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[09:14] <jonsowman_work> i believe (will check) that pressure_abs = ( Vout_in_MV * scaling ) + offset
[09:14] <m1x10> TraumaPony lol nick :)
[09:14] <Randomskk> the output was in mv rather than a generic 10bit number?
[09:14] <jonsowman_work> well the sensor is analogue + 12bit adc
[09:14] <Randomskk> s/10/12
[09:15] <TraumaPony> O hai
[09:15] <jonsowman_work> so: pressure_abs = ( (ADC_REF*(ADC_READ/4095) * scaling ) + offset
[09:16] <Randomskk> :P
[09:16] <jonsowman_work> for a 12-bit adc
[09:16] <Randomskk> personally I would (ADC_REF*ADC_READ*scaling)/4095)+offset
[09:16] <Randomskk> but that's just a numerical accuracy thing
[09:16] <jonsowman_work> yes fair point
[09:17] <Randomskk> if using floating point it's not an issue
[09:17] <jonsowman_work> m1x10: you can use our offset and scaling constants as initial values but they won't be right for your sensor, it'll need calibrating
[09:17] <Randomskk> but floating point on small embedded microcontrollers is never really great
[09:17] <jonsowman_work> unless you're extraordinarily lucky
[09:17] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work: did you calibrate those values from a barometer or such then?
[09:17] <jonsowman_work> from the sgs weather station in fact
[09:17] <Randomskk> should use the cued lab one :P
[09:18] <jonsowman_work> heh yes true
[09:19] <m1x10> where do offset and scaling constants derive from?
[09:20] <Randomskk> the reading from the sensor varies linearly with the pressure in millibars
[09:21] <Randomskk> however, it is a number from 0 to 4095 because that's what the ADC reports
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[09:21] <Randomskk> so we have to adjust the scale 0 to 4095 onto the scale of millibars
[09:22] <Randomskk> so for instance if we know that 0 from the sensor is the same as 100mb, and 50 from the sensor is the same as 200mb, we'd know we need to multiply the sensor reading by 2 and then add 100 to get a result in mb
[09:23] <Randomskk> in reality you probably wouldn't know those points, you might take a reading one day and observe 1234 on the sensor and correspond that to a reading of 1011mb from some weather sensor or barometer
[09:23] <Randomskk> and another day, 1301 on the sensor and a reading of 1020mb from the weather sensor or barometer
[09:23] <m1x10> hmm, I think I must do this in my room where I will somehow know the accurate pressure
[09:23] <Randomskk> and those two points will give you the scale
[09:23] <Randomskk> yes, you need to know the real pressure to calibrate it
[09:23] <m1x10> ok
[09:23] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work: do we need to calibrate our wx? can't remember
[09:24] <m1x10> understand
[09:24] <jonsowman_work> what was the pressure sensor
[09:24] <m1x10> jonsowman_work: http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPXHZ6116&webpageId=M98710&nodeId=01126990368710&fromPage=tax
[09:24] <m1x10> that's the sensor?
[09:25] <jonsowman_work> ours was MPXH6115A6U
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[09:25] <Randomskk> hahaha holy shit jonsowman_work
[09:26] <Randomskk> the datasheet for our sensor lists how to work out pressure
[09:26] <jonsowman_work> :o
[09:26] <jonsowman_work> a datasheet with useful stuff in it?!
[09:26] <Randomskk> yea but
[09:27] <Randomskk> hmm it says abs pressure accuracy +- 1hPa
[09:28] <Randomskk> and
[09:28] <Randomskk> +- 0.2 hPa relative accuracy
[09:28] <jonsowman_work> relative accuracy?
[09:28] <Randomskk> not really sure
[09:29] <Randomskk> anyway though the number it delivers over i2c is not a pressure in mb
[09:29] <Randomskk> it is some raw value that must be calibrated, but they provide calibration data
[09:29] <jonsowman_work> oh
[09:29] <jonsowman_work> right
[09:29] <Randomskk> as 11 16bit words in the EEPROM
[09:30] <Randomskk> AC1, AC2, AC3, AC4, AC5, AC6, B1, B2, MB, MC and MD
[09:30] <Randomskk> so one reads those
[09:30] <Randomskk> then you read the temperature from the device, two bytes, storing them in a 16bit
[09:30] <Randomskk> then read the presure from the device, three bytes, storing them in another long variable
[09:31] <Randomskk> (MSB<<16 + LSB<<8 + XLSB) >> (8-oss) where oss is oversampling setting
[09:31] <Randomskk> the long temperature goes in UT, the long pressure in UP (U for uncompensated)
[09:31] <Randomskk> then X1 = (UT - AC6) * AC5/2
[09:31] <Randomskk> X2 = MC * 2 / (X1 + MD)
[09:31] <Randomskk> B5 = X1 + X2
[09:32] <jonsowman_work> :|
[09:32] <Randomskk> T = (B5 + 8) / 2
[09:32] <Randomskk> wait those are not footnotes they are powers
[09:32] <Randomskk> so that's
[09:32] <Randomskk> X1 = (UT - AC6) * AC5/2^15
[09:32] <Randomskk> X2 = MC * 2^11 / (X1 + MD)
[09:32] <Randomskk> B5=X1+X2
[09:32] <jonsowman_work> :o
[09:32] <Randomskk> T = (B5 + 8)/2^4
[09:32] <Randomskk> T is the true pressure in C
[09:32] <Randomskk> so now for pressure
[09:33] <Randomskk> B6 = B5 - 4000
[09:33] <jonsowman_work> good god
[09:33] <Randomskk> X1 = (B2 * (B6 * B6/2^12))/2^11
[09:33] <Randomskk> X2 = AC2 * B6 / 2^11
[09:33] <Randomskk> X3 = X1 + X2
[09:33] <m1x10> Randomskk this isthe code I use for my sensor
[09:33] <Randomskk> B3 = ((AC1 * 4 + X3) << oss+2)/4
[09:33] <Randomskk> X1 = AC3 * B6 / 2^13
[09:34] <Randomskk> X2 = (B1*(B6*B6/2^12))/2^16
[09:34] <Randomskk> X3 = ((X1+X2)+2)/2^2
[09:34] <Randomskk> B4 = AC4 * (unsigned long)(X3 + 32768) / 2^15
[09:34] <Randomskk> B7 = ((unsigned long)UP - B3) * (50000 >> oss)
[09:35] <Randomskk> if(B7 < 0x80000000){p = (B7 * 2)/B4} else {p = (B7/B4)*2}
[09:35] jonsowman (~jonsowman@sheeva.hexoc.com) got netsplit.
[09:35] <jonsowman_work> oh :(
[09:35] <Randomskk> X1 = (p / 2^8) * (p/2^8)
[09:35] <Randomskk> X1 = (X1 * 3038) / 2^16
[09:35] <m1x10> x2 = (-7357 * p) >> 16;
[09:35] <m1x10> :P
[09:36] <Randomskk> X2 = (-7357 * p) / 2^16
[09:36] <Randomskk> p = p + (X1 + X2 + 3791) / 2^4
[09:36] <Randomskk> p is your pressure in mb
[09:36] <jonsowman_work> :|
[09:36] <jonsowman_work> horrific
[09:36] <m1x10> Randomskk this is the code I use for my sensor
[09:36] <Randomskk> wait in Pa
[09:36] <Randomskk> m1x10: no
[09:36] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work: at least it's all specified and easy
[09:36] <Randomskk> just follow it I guess
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[09:37] <Randomskk> m1x10: this is for a different sensor
[09:37] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work: to be honest a lot of that can be simplified
[09:37] <m1x10> BMP085 sensor
[09:37] <jonsowman_work> hello me :)
[09:37] <Randomskk> all the / and * by 2^n can be replaced by shifts and probably a lot of other crap can be taken out
[09:37] <Randomskk> question is
[09:37] <m1x10> it works pretty well
[09:37] <jonsowman_work> Randomskk: true
[09:37] <Randomskk> do we do this serverside
[09:38] <Randomskk> in which case the ARM has to read 22 bytes of calibration data as well as 3 bytes pressure and 2 bytes temperature
[09:38] <Randomskk> or do we have the arm deliver a pressure in mb
[09:38] <Randomskk> we don't need the temperature from the bmp
[09:39] <Randomskk> but it is required to get the final pressure
[09:39] <jonsowman_work> hmm
[09:39] <m1x10> Randomskk check this: http://imagebin.org/106208
[09:39] <jonsowman_work> i would normally suggest server side
[09:39] <jonsowman_work> easier to change
[09:39] <Randomskk> m1x10: ah, are you using that sensor or something?
[09:40] <m1x10> I told you, BMP085 from sparkfun
[09:40] <Randomskk> yea.
[09:40] <m1x10> and the results are correct
[09:40] <Randomskk> fair enough then. you just don't like its range?
[09:40] <Randomskk> we're getting it for a weather station so hopefully won't be getting to 9km
[09:40] <m1x10> just be sure to convert the x^y to shifting
[09:40] <Randomskk> yea
[09:41] <Randomskk> well or you could do powers but not with that syntax
[09:41] <Randomskk> but obviously pointless
[09:41] <m1x10> is this code suitable for apexII's sensor?
[09:41] <Randomskk> no
[09:41] <m1x10> ok
[09:41] <Randomskk> though apex2's sensor also cuts out at altitude
[09:41] <Randomskk> it doesn't go down to 0 pressure
[09:41] <Randomskk> it's just a bit better?
[09:42] <m1x10> BMP085 goes down to 300hPa
[09:42] <jonsowman_work> the apex-ii sensor bottomed out at 115mb iirc
[09:42] <m1x10> while MPXH6115A6U goes down to ... ?
[09:42] <Randomskk> something like that
[09:43] <m1x10> but still i need a sensor for 35km alt
[09:43] <m1x10> maybe it can go down to almost zero hPa
[09:44] <m1x10> or Iam just dreaming? :)
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[09:44] <jonsowman_work> there are ones in existence
[09:44] <jonsowman_work> from honeywell for examply
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[09:44] <jonsowman_work> * example
[09:44] <jonsowman_work> but for true 0-1bar range you're looking £50+
[09:45] <m1x10> cheap?
[09:45] <m1x10> ah
[09:45] <m1x10> ok
[09:45] <m1x10> is the difference between internal and external pressure big?
[09:45] <jonsowman_work> that freescale one is the best we found for a cheap sensor, and a lot of research went into that
[09:46] <jonsowman_work> well there is an upper bound of 1bar delta-P
[09:46] <m1x10> you speak of delta to explain difference?
[09:47] <m1x10> that delta is actual the 4th letter of my alphabet
[09:47] <jonsowman_work> :)
[09:47] <Randomskk> 4th letter of mine too, the bloody amount we use it
[09:47] <jonsowman_work> haha
[09:47] <jonsowman_work> oh so true
[09:47] <m1x10> yes we call it exactly delta
[09:47] <m1x10> alpha beta gamma delta
[09:49] <jonsowman_work> Randomskk: i plan to resolve the first 4 issues on the cusf predictor before deploying on SRCF
[09:49] <jonsowman_work> 44/47/48/49
[09:50] <jonsowman_work> may need your help with 48 as I think that'll be a python thing, if that's alright
[09:50] <Randomskk> yea sure
[09:51] <jonsowman_work> ta :)
[09:51] <m1x10> jonsowman_work did u clear the browser compability ticket?
[09:51] <jonsowman_work> not quite yet - still need to sort out the transparent divs in IE
[09:51] <m1x10> ah.. I gave you the solution. u didnt see me.
[09:52] <jonsowman_work> will find it in logs tonight
[09:52] <jonsowman_work> i was really busy with apex that night
[09:52] <jonsowman_work> apologies
[09:52] <m1x10> IE <= ver 8 do not support transparency
[09:52] <m1x10> no worries
[09:52] <m1x10> so you just add a second line in the CSS
[09:53] <m1x10> just below the transparency CSS line
[09:53] <m1x10> with the usual rgb()
[09:53] <m1x10> instead of argb()
[09:54] <m1x10> just use a light grey color so its similar to the transparent color
[09:57] <m1x10> Im trying to find the pinout diagram of the MPXH6115A6U but its not on its datasheet
[10:00] <m1x10> the arduino's adc resolution is up to 10bit hence 1023
[10:00] <m1x10> I think thats a problem with this sensor
[10:00] <m1x10> you said it needs a 12bit
[10:01] <Randomskk> you'll get less accuracy with 10bit
[10:02] <m1x10> I dont want float numbers, just integers
[10:02] <m1x10> I dont mind if its 115.5 or 115.9
[10:02] <m1x10> hPa
[10:03] <jonsowman_work> 10bit will probably be alright
[10:03] <jonsowman_work> 12 is obvious better though
[10:04] <m1x10> sure 2 bits get it to 4096
[10:05] <m1x10> ok, I think I found the diagram. Only 3 pins are used? VCC GND and Vout ?
[10:05] <jonsowman_work> probably
[10:05] <m1x10> also, I see that it needs some extra components
[10:06] <m1x10> that means I will put it in a small breadboard :)
[10:08] <jonsowman_work> it's a tiny little SMD thing
[10:09] <m1x10> jonsowman, in apexii graphs i see that you get very cold temperature
[10:09] <m1x10> did u think of a heating system?
[10:09] <m1x10> using some kind of resistance
[10:10] <m1x10> like in car windows
[10:10] <m1x10> using more batteries in serial you get more Volts
[10:11] <m1x10> the unused voltage becomes heat
[10:11] <jonsowman_work> yeh but it's a massive waste of power
[10:11] <jonsowman_work> the temperature is not a problem really
[10:11] <m1x10> its now wasted if you heat something :)
[10:11] <jonsowman_work> though we will insulate the radio module better for launch2
[10:11] <jonsowman_work> well, wasted in that things don't really need heating
[10:12] <jonsowman_work> the RF module is the only thing that suffered from the temperature
[10:12] <jonsowman_work> and that wasn't disastrous
[10:13] <m1x10> frequency gets shiffted some hz ?
[10:13] <jonsowman_work> yep
[10:13] <m1x10> lol
[10:13] <jonsowman_work> it drifted very quickly
[10:13] <jonsowman_work> the drift is acceptable, the rate was a bit high though
[10:13] <m1x10> HAB needs lots of preparation
[10:14] <m1x10> at first I though it will be easy
[10:15] <m1x10> now every day I join this channel I find that I will have a new problem to face
[10:15] <m1x10> damn you #highaltitude, you make my life problematic
[10:15] <m1x10> :)
[10:17] <jonsowman_work> heh
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[10:23] <fsphil> it's all worth it ... I hope :)
[10:25] <m1x10> :)
[10:25] <jonsowman_work> morning fsphil
[10:25] <fsphil> morning jonsowman_work !
[10:25] <jonsowman_work> how are things?
[10:26] <fsphil> not too bad, middle of the week - bit chilly, trying to decipher the jpeg format. fun stuff. you?
[10:27] <jonsowman_work> yeh not too bad ta
[10:27] <jonsowman_work> getting things together for the apex II relaunch
[10:27] <m1x10> you will launch it again ?
[10:27] <m1x10> why?
[10:28] <jonsowman_work> few bug fixes/improvements
[10:28] <fsphil> why not? :D
[10:28] <jonsowman_work> plus it's good fun :)
[10:28] <fsphil> got a planned flight date yet?
[10:28] <jonsowman_work> couple of months
[10:28] <jonsowman_work> 11th sept perhaps
[10:29] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work: pushed a small update to predict.py
[10:29] <Randomskk> progress.json now has a field 'gfs_timestamp', looks like "gfs_20100721_00z"
[10:30] <jonsowman_work> fantastic
[10:30] <jonsowman_work> 2 secs will pull onto server
[10:32] <jonsowman_work> pulled
[10:32] <Randomskk> doesn't touch the js or php though, you should just need to display that variable someplace
[10:33] <jonsowman_work> i need a place to store it, along with time of prediction run
[10:33] <jonsowman_work> when you view an old prediction it should say "this prediction was run at XX;XX and uses the XX:XX gfs model"
[10:33] <Randomskk> scenario? or progress.json given as that won't change until a new pred run
[10:34] <jonsowman_work> scenario is unchanged by re-running a prediction - would like to keep it that way, ie. static info for a scenario
[10:34] <jonsowman_work> progress.json is probably the place for it
[10:34] <Randomskk> so progress.json
[10:34] <Randomskk> I'll just have python say what time it was run in there then?
[10:34] <jonsowman_work> please :)
[10:36] <Randomskk> format?
[10:36] <Randomskk> default is 2010-07-21T09:36:35.114305
[10:37] <Randomskk> which is ISO8601
[10:37] <Randomskk> other easy option is 2010-07-21 09:36:05.714938
[10:37] <jonsowman_work> unix timestamp possible?
[10:37] <Randomskk> don't you want it readable?
[10:37] <Randomskk> or would you convert it later?
[10:37] <jonsowman_work> convert later - that's already in place
[10:37] <Randomskk> sure? do you need it as a unix timestamp for anything else?
[10:37] <Randomskk> I mean, does it get used for anything besides displaying to the user
[10:37] <jonsowman_work> no
[10:38] <Randomskk> surely a string is easiest then?
[10:38] <m1x10> I got a question about my 2m antenna
[10:38] <jonsowman_work> it's just I want it displayed like "16:33 on 24/06/10"
[10:38] <Randomskk> okay
[10:38] <m1x10> somebody want to hear it
[10:38] <Randomskk> also easy
[10:38] <m1x10> ?
[10:38] <Randomskk> just format string
[10:38] <Randomskk> is that what you want exactly?
[10:38] <jonsowman_work> reformatting ISO8601 easy?
[10:38] <Randomskk> or would you rather just a unix timestamp and convert it yourself
[10:38] <jonsowman_work> unix if that's alright
[10:38] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work: python's datetimes have an strftime so I just give it like %H:%M on %d/%m/%y
[10:38] <jonsowman_work> not sure on exact display format yet
[10:39] <Randomskk> okay
[10:39] <jonsowman_work> ah i see
[10:39] <jonsowman_work> unix if it's not too difficult
[10:39] <jonsowman_work> please:)
[10:41] <fsphil> m1x10, fire away - although I can't guarantee a good answer ;)
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[10:42] <m1x10> fsphil, well look: http://imagebin.org/106210
[10:42] <m1x10> I plan to seal my antenna in that thing
[10:42] <m1x10> would this affect the radiation?
[10:42] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work: run_time in progress.json, looks like 1279705215
[10:43] <jonsowman_work> Randomskk: thanks :D
[10:43] <jonsowman_work> pulling
[10:43] <fsphil> m1x10, cardboard? should be fine
[10:43] <jonsowman_work> done
[10:45] <jonsowman_work> cat preds/0381a7f77d81e05c75a2af101edfef479238d8a {"gfs_timestamp": "gfs20100721_00z", "pred_running": false, "progress_error": "", "run_time": "12797 05418", "pred_complete": true, "gfs_percent": 100, "gfs_complete": true, "gfs_timeremaining": "Done" }jon@kryten:[~/predict/predict]$
[10:45] <jonsowman_work> :D
[10:45] <jonsowman_work> ignore the spaces - stupid ssh client
[10:45] <fsphil> jon@kryten -- farscape or red dwarf? :)
[10:45] <jonsowman_work> the latter :)
[10:45] <jonsowman_work> mysql server is called lister
[10:46] <m1x10> fsphil, its just that usual hard paper
[10:46] <m1x10> its from aluminium packages my mother uses to cover some foods
[10:46] <m1x10> if u get me
[10:47] <m1x10> can this affect the signal?
[10:47] <m1x10> I put for protection
[10:47] <m1x10> when it lands not to break the antenna
[10:48] <fsphil> m1x10, if it's just cardboard I don't think it would affect it. is there any aluminium in it?
[10:48] <m1x10> no
[10:49] <jonsowman_work> will be fine :)
[10:49] <m1x10> just that thing
[10:49] <m1x10> ok
[10:49] <m1x10> and I plan to put a plastic ball on the edge of the antenna
[10:49] <m1x10> so not to stub anyone
[10:51] <jonsowman_work> wise plan
[10:51] <fsphil> good idea
[10:51] <m1x10> :)
[10:52] <jonsowman_work> better than our ball of gaffa tape: http://balloon.hexoc.com/gallery/apex-ii/index.php/Launch-Photos/IMG_2867
[10:52] <m1x10> nowdays some stupid balls exist in the market for stress-like usage
[10:52] <Randomskk> or failing that just a load of gaffer tape in a ball
[10:52] <Randomskk> :P
[10:52] <jonsowman_work> heh
[10:52] <m1x10> I dont think the ball will affect the antenna too
[10:53] <m1x10> the radiaton I mena
[10:53] <m1x10> mean*
[10:53] <jonsowman_work> as long as it doesn't have any metal in it, it'll be alright
[10:53] <m1x10> no, no metal
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[11:16] <jonsowman_work> Randomskk:
[11:16] <jonsowman_work> Server gave a prediction run timestamp of 1279707336
[11:16] <jonsowman_work> Server said it used the gfs20100721_00z GFS model
[11:16] <jonsowman_work> :)
[11:16] <Randomskk> :D
[11:16] <jonsowman_work> only in debug msgs atm
[11:16] <Randomskk> this bloody caching issue
[11:17] <Randomskk> dunno what to do about it
[11:17] <jonsowman_work> mm i know
[11:17] <jonsowman_work> me neither
[11:17] <Randomskk> it should Just Work
[11:17] <Randomskk> it Doesn't
[11:17] <Randomskk> I still like my original idea
[11:17] <jonsowman_work> the pydap cache?
[11:17] <Randomskk> namely, hourly predictor runs for UK +/- 5 degrees
[11:17] <Randomskk> any predictions assume we have that data
[11:17] <Randomskk> but run data gathering for anything else
[11:17] <jonsowman_work> yep
[11:17] <Randomskk> thing is though, that means predict.py gets skipped so doesn't progress.json
[11:18] <Randomskk> unless predict.py checks for that and quits if so
[11:18] <jonsowman_work> oh yes
[11:18] <Randomskk> it could maybe check that data exists or such
[11:18] <Randomskk> really
[11:18] <jonsowman_work> hmm yes
[11:18] <jonsowman_work> that'd work
[11:18] <jonsowman_work> i think
[11:18] <Randomskk> I just wish the bloody pydap cache'd work
[11:18] <Randomskk> then it'd all be fantastic just like magic
[11:18] <jonsowman_work> should do
[11:18] <jonsowman_work> :\
[11:23] <Randomskk> thing is
[11:23] <Randomskk> it uses the cache dir
[11:23] <Randomskk> it writes files to it
[11:23] <Randomskk> a second run doesn't change any of the files in the cache
[11:24] <Randomskk> but doesn't seem to /use/ them
[11:24] <jonsowman_work> odd
[11:24] <Randomskk> fiels are like
[11:24] <Randomskk> nomads.ncep.noaa.gov,9090,dods,gfs,gfs20100721,gfs_00z.dods,hgtprs.lev[0,1,25],aa11845529960ed6d66dbba126296a29
[11:24] <Randomskk> can't tell if that hash at the end is defeating caching or something
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[11:25] <jonsowman_work_> hmmoops
[11:25] <jonsowman_work_> webchat.
[11:26] <Randomskk> the issue with leaving a linux desktop running for days at at time is all the weirdo memory leaks
[11:26] <m1x10> is the cusf prediction system accurate enough?
[11:26] <Randomskk> the onscreen notification daemon doesn't deallocate memory used for thumbnail images on notifications
[11:26] <Randomskk> banshee uses thumbnail images
[11:26] <Randomskk> so every song adds about 100k ram
[11:27] <jonsowman_work_> Randomskk: nice
[11:27] <jonsowman_work_> m1x10: pretty good
[11:27] <Randomskk> so after a few days
[11:27] <Randomskk> memory usage just goes up and up
[11:27] <Randomskk> I need another 4gb ram basically
[11:27] <jonsowman_work_> it was a few km out for apex but that was due to us overfilling the balloon
[11:27] <jonsowman_work_> so it fell short of predicted
[11:27] <jonsowman_work_> also fell short of the forest, which is handy
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[11:28] <m1x10> mostly I ask about the route it shows on the map
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[11:29] <jonsowman_work_> m1x10: compare
[11:29] <jonsowman_work_> predicted: http://hexoc.com/hab/predict/predict/#!/uuid=2779157a2648c92e830df001643f7408eab21ee2
[11:29] <jonsowman_work_> real: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http://balloon.hexoc.com/apex-ii/track.kml
[11:30] <m1x10> oh
[11:30] <m1x10> pretty cool
[11:30] <m1x10> but where did u get the wind data?
[11:30] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work_:
[11:31] <Randomskk> so I run the script
[11:31] <Randomskk> it gets data
[11:31] <Randomskk> writes to cache
[11:31] <jonsowman_work_> m1x10: the predictor grabs data from the noaa
[11:31] <Randomskk> I run it again, network analyser running
[11:31] <Randomskk> I see
[11:31] <Randomskk> if-modified-since: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 04:32:52 GMT
[11:31] <Randomskk> I get
[11:31] Nick change: jonsowman_work_ -> jonsowman_work
[11:31] <m1x10> how many days after the current day can it run the prediction?
[11:31] <Randomskk> Last-Modified: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 04:36:58 GMT
[11:32] <jonsowman_work> interesting
[11:32] <jonsowman_work> m1x10: 7
[11:32] <Randomskk> running again
[11:32] <m1x10> oh I see the route is almost identical
[11:32] <m1x10> very good
[11:32] <jonsowman_work> m1x10: indeed. the differences are mainly down to overfilling and earlier launch time
[11:33] <jonsowman_work> predictor is only as good as the information you give it
[11:33] <m1x10> i give it launch date 29 and it refuses..
[11:33] <m1x10> oh sory
[11:33] <m1x10> u saud 7
[11:33] <m1x10> ok
[11:34] <m1x10> haha
[11:34] <m1x10> http://hexoc.com/hab/predict/predict/#!/uuid=adcc29de10b886138e45ca684cb060eaa96478ac
[11:34] <Randomskk> I hit it again
[11:34] <Randomskk> if-modified-since: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:26:10 GMT
[11:34] <m1x10> windy !
[11:34] <Randomskk> response Last-Modified: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:27:16 GMT
[11:35] <jonsowman_work> so it's writing to files in the cache
[11:35] <jonsowman_work> ?
[11:35] <Randomskk> yea
[11:35] <Randomskk> running again with an empty cache
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[11:38] <jonsowman_work> hi Matt_soton
[11:38] <jonsowman_work> sorry for killing lister :)
[11:38] <Matt_soton> dw :)
[11:40] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work: it appears that the server always replies with a slightly newer last-modified
[11:40] <jonsowman_work> indeed
[11:40] <jonsowman_work> why?
[11:40] <Randomskk> if the pydap cache is empty, it doesn't send if-modified-since headers
[11:43] <jonsowman_work> right
[11:48] <Randomskk> it uses httplib2
[11:49] <jonsowman_work> hehe A0 printer
[11:49] <jonsowman_work> this is fun
[11:49] <Randomskk> :o
[11:52] <Matt_soton> whats the size of the one you have at home then?
[11:53] <jonsowman_work> A2
[11:53] <Matt_soton> oh ok
[11:53] <jonsowman_work> this is A0
[11:53] <jonsowman_work> im so tempted to make a paper plane
[11:53] <Matt_soton> u can print paper planes?
[11:53] <Matt_soton> :p
[11:53] <jonsowman_work> yes
[11:53] <jonsowman_work> the printer has a "turn this print into a plane" button
[11:53] <Matt_soton> oo nice
[11:54] <jonsowman_work> </sarcasm>
[11:54] <Randomskk> tbh
[11:54] <Randomskk> some industrial printers
[11:54] <Randomskk> they can fold into 3-fold pamphlets, staple, the works
[11:54] <Randomskk> a plane doesn't seem that far off
[11:54] <jonsowman_work> oh so can this one
[11:54] <jonsowman_work> prints everything from A6 to A0
[11:54] <jonsowman_work> can fold, laminate, etc
[11:54] <Randomskk> hot stuff
[11:55] <fsphil> but does it work with linux? :)
[11:55] <jonsowman_work> interestingly it can staple in all four corners at the same time
[11:55] <Randomskk> I wonder what happens if I monkeypatch libhttp2 to ignore last-modified
[11:55] <jonsowman_work> how that's useful I don't really know
[11:55] <jonsowman_work> fsphil: no idea :P
[11:55] <jonsowman_work> probably, there are a lot of unix machines here
[11:56] <Matt_soton> print onr of apex's pictures onto A0 :)
[11:56] <jonsowman_work> hehe
[11:56] <jonsowman_work> I might
[11:57] <fsphil> you could make a big paper balloon
[11:57] <Matt_soton> may need to rasterbate it? :)
[11:57] <jonsowman_work> :P
[12:01] <fsphil> ah man, windows hasn't got stdint.h
[12:08] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work: a very dirty hack and caching 'works' so overall it can be made to work
[12:08] <jonsowman_work> :)
[12:08] <jonsowman_work> excellent
[12:08] <Randomskk> while this is too dirty for production, it gives promise that something can be done
[12:08] <jonsowman_work> yes
[12:08] <jonsowman_work> definitely
[12:08] <jonsowman_work> is this is ignore last-modified monkeypatch?
[12:08] <Randomskk> no
[12:08] <jonsowman_work> oh?
[12:08] <Randomskk> this is editing the pydap library to have it add "Cache-Control: only-if-cached" to its request header
[12:09] <Randomskk> httplib2 then interprets that header before sending the request on
[12:09] <jonsowman_work> ah
[12:09] <jonsowman_work> i see
[12:09] <jonsowman_work> clever but hacky
[12:09] <Randomskk> and says "I have a cached version" and delivers it, despite anything else (i.e., it does not try to hit the remote server)
[12:09] <Randomskk> or says "no cached version" and the python script "can't find suitable dataset"
[12:09] <Randomskk> the execution time is significantly faster :P
[12:09] <jonsowman_work> :)
[12:10] <Randomskk> essentially httplib2 is doing something that means it thinks the cached response should not be used
[12:10] <jonsowman_work> brb
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[12:18] <Randomskk> hahahaha
[12:18] <Randomskk> this is brutal
[12:18] <Randomskk> hahaha
[12:18] <Randomskk> def fresh(a, b): return 'FRESH'
[12:18] <Randomskk> pydap.util.http.httplib2._entry_disposition = fresh
[12:19] <Randomskk> hahaha
[12:19] <jonsowman_work> hahaha
[12:19] <Randomskk> it works as well
[12:19] <jonsowman_work> that's excellent
[12:19] <Randomskk> caching is now working
[12:19] <Randomskk> I have a slight concern
[12:19] <Randomskk> that it will cache none existance of later-in-the-day datasets
[12:19] <Randomskk> it requests 18z, 12z, 6z, 0z in that order
[12:20] <jonsowman_work> right
[12:20] <Randomskk> if 18z is bad it gets a response saying so, so then looks for 12z, and so on
[12:20] <Randomskk> the 18z being bad response says
[12:20] <Randomskk> cache-control: no-cache
[12:20] <Randomskk> but the function that checks that just got massively patched
[12:21] <Randomskk> I might make my function check for that
[12:21] <jonsowman_work> :)
[12:23] <Randomskk> haha this is ridiculous
[12:24] <Randomskk> it's like a hundred lines of cache validation
[12:25] <Randomskk> okay
[12:25] <Randomskk> cache works for 06z
[12:25] <Randomskk> waiting for 12z dataset to be released
[12:25] <Randomskk> if it redownloads we are good
[12:26] <jonsowman_work> 12z wont till till 5pm ish
[12:26] <jonsowman_work> *be published until
[12:27] <Randomskk> yea
[12:27] <Randomskk> not much I can do about that though
[12:27] <jonsowman_work> yea i realise
[12:27] <Randomskk> if you want I can commit the massively lol monkeypatch
[12:27] <Randomskk> it now checks cache
[12:27] <jonsowman_work> shall we wait until verified with 12z first
[12:28] <Randomskk> http://pastie.org/1053502
[12:28] <Randomskk> c.f. http://code.google.com/p/httplib2/source/browse/python2/httplib2/__init__.py#270
[12:29] <Randomskk> the issue seems to be that the response headers have date, but no max-age, so the thing doesn't know when to expire them
[12:29] <Randomskk> so just expires them
[12:29] <Randomskk> now, it assumes everything is fresh from cache unless the cached response said "no-cache"
[12:30] <Randomskk> so if dods change to not say cache-control:no-cache in their response, or if pydap stops using httplib2, or if httplib2 changes how its caching control works, this will break
[12:30] <Randomskk> but probably not very badly
[12:30] <Randomskk> :D
[12:31] <jonsowman_work> excellent
[12:31] <jonsowman_work> good work
[12:31] <Randomskk> 'good' work
[12:32] <Randomskk> there's not much else we can do admittedly, the issue is that dods servers aren't set up to allow proper caching
[12:32] <Randomskk> this way is as good as anything
[12:32] <jonsowman_work> yup
[12:32] <Randomskk> but it does amuse me to be patching the library used by a library we use
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[12:36] <jonsowman_work> hehe
[12:36] <Randomskk> russss: oh hi
[12:38] <Randomskk> anyway this appears to work
[12:38] <Randomskk> and is a pretty tiny change
[12:38] <Randomskk> so that's surprisingly happy
[12:47] <Randomskk> by the way you'll want to clear the cache with cron
[12:47] <Randomskk> filenames have timestamps
[12:48] <Randomskk> you'll probably want to set the cache path to somewhere near the script too, right now it's /tmp/pydap-cache
[12:49] <Randomskk> I guess just delete data that's not from today, so `ls /tmp/pydap-cache -1 | grep -v `date +"%Y%m%d" | xargs rm`
[12:50] <Randomskk> ls /tmp/pydap-cache -1 | grep -v `date +"%Y%m%d"` | xargs rm
[12:50] <Randomskk> even
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[12:55] <jonsowman_work> ok thanks :)
[12:58] <jonsowman_work> Randomskk: http://hexoc.com/hab/predict/predict/#!/uuid=aa462748e835c7afb32077228795e35e9a6566e1
[12:58] <jonsowman_work> see scenario info box
[13:01] <Randomskk> perfect
[13:02] <Randomskk> not a bad path either though lol landing on a town
[13:02] <jonsowman_work> yeh bit of a weird one that
[13:02] <jonsowman_work> i'm going to have to clear all past predictions
[13:02] <jonsowman_work> as their progress.jsons are going to confuse it
[13:03] <Randomskk> oh yea
[13:03] <Randomskk> eh
[13:03] <Randomskk> it is beta :P
[13:04] <jonsowman_work> exactly
[13:04] <jonsowman_work> this is why i wanna sort this kinda thing out before srcf deployment
[13:05] <jonsowman_work> ed promised me beer when it's deployed on srcf
[13:05] <jonsowman_work> so not gonna leave it too long :P
[13:05] <Randomskk> hah
[13:06] <Randomskk> I wonder how his hack day went
[13:06] <jonsowman_work> oh yes
[13:06] <jonsowman_work> dont know
[13:10] <Randomskk> we're never going to see prize money from the trading thing are we :(
[13:10] <Randomskk> thinking I may as well delete my 1atrading repo on github
[13:10] <jonsowman_work> D:
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[13:35] <jonsowman_work> need to find a good way of checking that the UUID a user gives is valid
[13:35] <jonsowman_work> at the moment it just failed to do anything silently
[13:35] <jonsowman_work> bar a couple of msgs in debug
[13:35] <Randomskk> yea
[13:35] <jonsowman_work> it will still run another pred fine - it acts like you didnt give it a UUID
[13:35] <jonsowman_work> need to keep the number of ajax calls down
[13:37] <Matt_soton> the set with map thing seems broken :\
[13:37] <jonsowman_work> indeed it is
[13:37] <jonsowman_work> oops
[13:40] <Randomskk> oh wow
[13:40] <Randomskk> cmake is a lot better than just writing make files by hand
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[13:49] <jonsowman_work> ive no idea why that is broken
[13:49] <jonsowman_work> ;\
[13:54] <jonsowman_work> hmm
[14:14] <fsphil> cmake worth trying?
[14:14] <Randomskk> what're you using at the moment?
[14:15] <Randomskk> autotools are shockingly bad and should be ditched asap. hand doing makefiles is old but can work for very simple projects or things with odd special requirements
[14:15] <fsphil> some projects have manual makefile, other uses automake
[14:15] <Randomskk> scons is python based and does the whole thing itself, but is slower and harder
[14:15] <Randomskk> cmake seems like the best of the lot at the moment
[14:15] <Randomskk> it's easy, powerful, fast
[14:15] <Randomskk> it generates make files
[14:15] jonsowman_work (516ada42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.106.218.66) got netsplit.
[14:15] <fsphil> I'll take a peek at it, anything to ease the pain of autotools
[14:15] <Randomskk> unless you're using visual studio - then it generates visual studio project files
[14:16] <Randomskk> or using code::blocks, then it ...
[14:16] <Randomskk> etc
[14:16] <Randomskk> it generates the files required to build your project with your toolchain
[14:16] <Randomskk> make for gun
[14:16] <Randomskk> gnu*
[14:16] <Randomskk> it replaces autotools in that sense
[14:16] <Randomskk> automake is really just not worth it
[14:16] <Randomskk> autotools*
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[14:26] <jonsowman_work> hmph
[14:26] <jonsowman_work> worked out the issue but no idea how to solve
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[14:32] <Randomskk> what's up?
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[14:33] <jonsowman_work> its the lat/lon delta poly
[14:34] <jonsowman_work> it is above the map and the click doesn't go "through" the poly to the map
[14:34] <Randomskk> can you register clicks on the poly
[14:34] <jonsowman_work> that's what i'm looking at
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[14:42] <jonsowman_work> Randomskk: fixed :)
[14:42] <jonsowman_work> slightly hacky but it works
[14:42] <Randomskk> cool
[14:42] <Randomskk> what'd you do?
[14:42] <jonsowman_work> I made it a polyline instead of a polygon
[14:42] <Randomskk> ah
[14:42] <Randomskk> good plan
[14:43] <jonsowman_work> anyway tis ok now
[14:43] <jonsowman_work> Matt_soton: ^^
[14:43] <Randomskk> hang on, oh, god, there is a class in the lander code
[14:43] <Randomskk> one class
[14:43] <Randomskk> its entire implementation is in the header file
[14:44] <Randomskk> all its members are public
[14:44] <Matt_soton> b4 u fixed it, it worked fine provided u clicked outside hte grey area
[14:44] <Randomskk> http://pastie.org/1053672
[14:44] <jonsowman_work> Matt_soton: I know, it was the polygon being stupid
[14:44] <jonsowman_work> Randomskk: i don't even want to look
[14:44] <Matt_soton> what is that area nayways?
[14:44] <jonsowman_work> Matt_soton: the lat/lon delta. ie the area the predictor gets data for
[14:45] <Matt_soton> oh ok
[14:45] <jonsowman_work> you can make it bigger for long distance flights by changing the values in the form
[14:45] <Matt_soton> also, dont u actually have work to do at work?
[14:45] <Randomskk> yea jonsowman_work what is up with your work
[14:45] <jonsowman_work> heh :)
[14:45] <jonsowman_work> i am doing work
[14:45] <jonsowman_work> multitasking :P
[14:46] <Randomskk> :P
[14:46] <jonsowman_work> waiting for people to get back to me about things
[14:46] <Matt_soton> if u get bored can u 'test' out one of the cars on that drag strip?
[14:47] <jonsowman_work> i'd love to
[14:47] <jonsowman_work> lol
[14:47] <jonsowman_work> everyone is in client meetings all week so there's nobody around and nothing for me to do at the moment
[14:47] <jonsowman_work> well, few bits and pieces but I'm not busy
[14:47] <Matt_soton> so they wont mind u abusing the printer, for example?
[14:48] <jonsowman_work> they might mind that :P
[14:48] <Matt_soton> shame
[14:48] <Randomskk> still torn on this 1alander thing
[14:49] <Randomskk> could unittest++, cmake, boost, make a Lib1ALander that does all the rendering and 3d stuff, and a 1ALander app that links to the library and just has numerical intergration and autopilot, e.g. what the student has to write, do both, submit
[14:49] <juxta> hi all
[14:49] <Randomskk> would be nice, but
[14:49] <Randomskk> their code is a total horrid mess, it'd take all day just to write down requriements for the library
[14:49] <Randomskk> hi juxta
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[14:52] <juxta> how's things?
[14:52] <Randomskk> all good here, you?
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[14:58] <juxta> not bad here either
[14:58] <juxta> been testing a new payload, an airborne voice repeater :)
[14:59] <Randomskk> cool
[14:59] <Randomskk> how's it work?
[15:04] <juxta> it's an old handheld that's been hacked up with an AVR and sound recording IC
[15:04] <Randomskk> haha nice
[15:05] <juxta> so it's a simplex repeater - it records then replays
[15:05] <juxta> it works amazingly well though, will be great to see how it is when it's flying - then we'll do a duplex one :D
[15:07] <juxta> Randomskk: http://projecthorus.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/P1000663.jpg
[15:07] <juxta> (minus IC's)
[15:07] <Randomskk> that looks awesome
[15:07] <Randomskk> nice work
[15:08] <juxta> not built be me, built by one of the hams who's been a big help with my launches
[15:08] <juxta> plus a bit of a mentor in terms of getting my license :)
[15:08] <Randomskk> I wish we could fly amateur stuff
[15:08] <juxta> :(
[15:09] <juxta> there's a band you can fly voice on there though so long as you keep the duty cycle down, right?
[15:09] <Randomskk> possibly
[15:10] <juxta> we've got this configured for 1W of power, though it can do 5 - we're guessing it's going to be in use pretty much 100% of the time, so it'll be ar 50% duty cycle, just need to sort out power
[15:10] <juxta> and cooling potentially
[15:10] <Randomskk> cooling seems unlikely to be an issue if you don't close the case too tightly
[15:10] <juxta> hehe
[15:10] <juxta> that was the idea, just dont want it to get too cold
[15:11] <juxta> the whole thing is actually mounted on an aluminium sheet, and the transmitter is actually right down on it with thermal compound too, so the sheet should act as a sink
[15:11] <fsphil> that's a brilliant idea .. hope you record it, I'd love to hear it in action
[15:12] <juxta> I'm thinking of making the payload wall thin on the side that aluminium plate is
[15:12] <juxta> fsphil: good thinking, I'll make sure we get a sound recording :)
[15:14] <juxta> luckily for us the transciever we hacked up has a cloning port, and we have 2 of them - so to configure it we just use a fully functioning handheld complete with number pad and LCD, then clone it over
[15:15] <juxta> Randomskk: was it you I asked about the ATX psu on the backset of the car in photos, or was that jonsowman?
[15:16] <Randomskk> you asked jonsowman, though it was my psu
[15:16] <juxta> okay - I was going to mention something interesting
[15:16] <juxta> I have a comms radio in my car, which does 55w on VHF
[15:17] <juxta> it's wired up correctly, direct to the battery etc, never gives me any issues when I use it - except for the other day when I had the carputer and other gear in the car, which doesnt have a dedicated ground to the battery (uses the car chassis)
[15:18] <juxta> I suspect that was the issue - but if I transmitted at full power while driving, it was enough to mess with the ECU and kill the ignition spark while I was transmitting
[15:18] <jonsowman_work> ouch
[15:18] <jonsowman_work> not ideal
[15:18] <juxta> hehe
[15:19] <juxta> was a bit of a shock when i did it the first time
[15:19] <jonsowman_work> did it kill the engine?
[15:19] <juxta> nah well i was moving at 100km/h
[15:20] <juxta> so as soon as i got off the TX even if the engine had stalled it would just restart anyway
[15:20] <juxta> but it didn't kill it totally - it was sort of on and off whilst transmitting
[15:20] <jonsowman_work> yeh that's what i was thinking
[15:20] <jonsowman_work> depends how the ECU reacts
[15:20] <juxta> will have to see what happens when I run a dedicated ground to the carputer
[15:21] <juxta> as it works just fine when the carputer isnt in there
[15:21] <juxta> either that or relocate the antenna to somewhere further from the ECU
[15:22] <juxta> (though I suspect it's probably being picked up in the wiring looms somewhere along the line)
[15:22] <jonsowman_work> get an ODB reader on the ECU and see what it thinks
[15:22] <jonsowman_work> :P
[15:22] <juxta> haha
[15:23] <jonsowman_work> *OBD
[15:23] <jonsowman_work> i'm surprised your dashboard didn't light up like a christmas tree tbh
[15:24] <jonsowman_work> what car is it?
[15:26] <juxta> it's fairly old (1991 mazda), so it's probably not sophisticated enough to realise what's going on :P
[15:27] <jonsowman_work> hehe
[15:27] <jonsowman_work> aw
[15:27] <jonsowman_work> bless it
[15:27] <jonsowman_work> to be honest it's probably more accepting than more modern cars
[15:27] <juxta> on the plus side I suppose I don't have any electronic systems to fail on TX that would put me in danger, haha
[15:27] <jonsowman_work> exactly
[15:27] <juxta> I would imagine so
[15:28] <juxta> 55w seems to mess with a lot of things
[15:28] <juxta> it sets off all the tamper sensors in the alarm if I TX in the garage
[15:28] <jonsowman_work> i can imagine newer cars turning the EML on and going into limp home mode. they seem to do that for almost anything
[15:28] <jonsowman_work> haha
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[15:30] <jonsowman_work> maybe a seperate SLA would be a good idea?
[15:30] <juxta> already got one on the carputer
[15:30] <Randomskk> I wonder what would happen if I 100W'd my whip
[15:30] <Randomskk> tbh even 35W on that thing
[15:30] <Randomskk> I should get an hf antenna
[15:31] <juxta> jonsowman, with a simple diode block so it takes over when I start the car & the PC doesnt reboot
[15:32] <jonsowman_work> :)
[15:32] <juxta> Randomskk: this whip is claimed to be good up to 100w I think, not sure that I would trust it though at that sort of power
[15:32] <jonsowman_work> neat
[15:33] <juxta> works well, the whole 'carputer' assembly just drops into the boot and has the radio, computer, battery, gps, internet etc in it
[15:33] <juxta> i control it via a terminal services session from the laptop in the car (the carputer broadcasts a wireless network)
[15:34] <jonsowman_work> very clever
[15:34] <jonsowman_work> like it :)
[15:34] <juxta> hehe
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[15:35] <juxta> some old photos, it's got more gear on it now:
[15:35] <juxta> http://projecthorus.org/?p=816
[15:35] <Randomskk> hah that is awesome
[15:36] <jonsowman_work> that is quality
[15:36] <Randomskk> if I get my own car I'm so embedding electronics all over the place
[15:36] <juxta> it's great for getting setup quickly, rigging the car up only takes 5 mins now
[15:36] <jonsowman_work> :D
[15:37] <juxta> plonk that in the boot and put the (homemade) magmount on the roof
[15:37] <juxta> (radio is tuned by the computer)
[15:38] <Randomskk> I should get uplink working on my icon
[15:38] <Randomskk> then I could do digital modes
[15:38] <Randomskk> that'd be exciting
[15:38] <juxta> yeah uplink is something I want to do soon too
[15:39] <juxta> we got offered some UHF bidirectional modules from a radiometrix reseller, just waiting to get it all organised
[15:39] <jonsowman_work> juxta: which modules?
[15:40] <juxta> Randomskk, do you need more than a foundation license to do digital in the UK?>
[15:40] <juxta> jonsowman_work, BiM1 I think, let me double check
[15:40] <juxta> yeah the BiM1, 100mW UHF
[15:41] <jonsowman_work> says VHF?
[15:41] <jonsowman_work> 173 MHz?
[15:41] <juxta> whoops
[15:41] <juxta> sorry
[15:41] <juxta> yes
[15:41] <juxta> haha
[15:41] <jonsowman_work> ah ok :0
[15:41] <jonsowman_work> we used the NiM2 on apex-ii
[15:41] <Randomskk> juxta: don't thiink so
[15:41] <Randomskk> not really sure
[15:41] <jonsowman_work> which seems to be the UHF version of the BiM2
[15:41] <jonsowman_work> * BiM1
[15:41] <juxta> yeah I noticed that - how did it go?
[15:41] <Randomskk> I don't think foundation has any restrictions on modes
[15:42] <jonsowman_work> juxta: worked :)
[15:42] <jonsowman_work> successful uplink
[15:42] <fsphil> no restriction on modes, just power and bands
[15:42] Action: Randomskk just got full asap so didn't really pay much attention
[15:42] <juxta> Randomskk, here you do, I had to sit 4 exams for my license to get digital, how annoying
[15:42] <Randomskk> lol what
[15:42] <Randomskk> I only had three exams for a full license
[15:42] <Randomskk> then again our full license is clearly shit
[15:42] <Randomskk> 400W and no airborne
[15:42] <juxta> 400W PEP?
[15:43] <juxta> or continuous?
[15:43] <Randomskk> think it's continuous
[15:43] <juxta> wow, that's quite high
[15:43] <jonsowman_work> yea
[15:43] <Randomskk> as you can see I am up to date on my licensing conditions
[15:43] <juxta> very high even
[15:43] <Randomskk> the US gets 1kw
[15:43] <juxta> :O
[15:43] <juxta> surely PEP?
[15:44] <juxta> i forget what my license allows - we have 3 grades: foundation, standard & advanced
[15:44] <juxta> I have standard, which is the minimum you need for any digital modes
[15:44] <juxta> I suspect it's around 75W continuous power limit for me
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[15:45] <Randomskk> apparently it's actually 1.5kW PEP for the US
[15:46] <juxta> but that said we don't exactly have any radio inspectors, lots of people run much much more and nobody complains (except perhaps their neighbors trying to watch TV), even UHF CB users run 100w (legal limit is 5w)
[15:46] <Randomskk> lol what
[15:46] <Randomskk> their power limit doesn't vary with class
[15:46] <Randomskk> only operating bands
[15:46] <juxta> in the US you mean?
[15:46] <Randomskk> yea
[15:46] <fsphil> eek
[15:47] <juxta> interesting, ours doesnt vary on bands
[15:47] <Randomskk> their technician class can do 1500 watts
[15:47] <juxta> just on license class
[15:48] <Randomskk> here foundation is 10W, intermediate 50W, full 400W
[15:48] <Randomskk> there are some band variations between classes but not that significant iirc
[15:48] <fsphil> foundation doesn't cover some microwave bands, but that's about it I think
[15:48] <Randomskk> lol the rsgb site says the advanced exam requires "considerable study"
[15:49] <jonsowman_work> you still study considerably
[15:49] <jonsowman_work> *did
[15:49] <jonsowman_work> for a few minutes
[15:49] <juxta> haha indeed ours says the same Randomskk, we just sat all the exams on the same day, the only thing we actually had to read into was the regulations, as we have a whole exam on pedantic regulations
[15:50] <jonsowman_work> Randomskk: might try and do licenses in MT10
[15:50] <Randomskk> jonsowman_work: go for it
[15:50] <Randomskk> juxta: quite, we had a load of questions on that too
[15:50] <juxta> i just looked up the license detmination documents here - looks like the power limits here are very low
[15:50] <juxta> standard has 100w PEP
[15:51] <juxta> or 30w continuous, haha
[15:52] <juxta> 400w PEP, 120w continuous for advanced license holders
[15:52] <Randomskk> hmm
[15:53] <Randomskk> on 70cms I have 40W PEP
[15:53] <Randomskk> wait what
[15:53] <Randomskk> oh, 40W PEP on 430-432
[15:53] <Randomskk> 432-440 is 400W PEP
[15:54] <juxta> foundation is 10W PEP here
[15:55] <juxta> hmm, i accidentally split this channel into it's own window in xchat, any idea how to put it back? :S
[15:56] <fsphil> x-chat -> attach
[15:56] <juxta> found it, hurrah
[15:56] <juxta> thanks fsphil
[15:56] <juxta> :)
[15:56] <fsphil> beat me to it :)
[15:56] <fsphil> I did the same the other day
[15:57] <Randomskk> man, I can't remember any of my licensing terms
[15:57] <Randomskk> or the technical details of a lot of it
[15:58] <Randomskk> I also can't seem to find if most of the power limits are continuous or pep
[15:58] <Randomskk> hmm
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[15:58] <jonsowman_work_> oops
[15:58] jonsowman_work (516ada42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.106.218.66) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[15:58] <jonsowman_work_> killed it :(
[15:58] <Randomskk> amateur radio is the primary user of 248 to 250GHz
[15:59] Nick change: jonsowman_work_ -> jonsowman_work
[15:59] <jonsowman_work> 250 GHz :o
[15:59] <Randomskk> with no power limit?
[15:59] <juxta> hehe
[15:59] <Randomskk> it doesn't state any power limit
[15:59] <juxta> the limiting factor is likely to be the inability to afford any 250GHZ transmitters
[16:00] <Randomskk> :P
[16:00] <fsphil> be a cool project though!
[16:00] <Randomskk> or transmit with any significant power at that kind of frequency
[16:00] <Randomskk> losses would be crazy
[16:00] <Randomskk> how do you even generate that
[16:01] <juxta> Randomskk, my uncle does research work on high freq links, he mentioned they were working with ~50GHz sat uplinks presently
[16:01] <juxta> nowhere near 250GHz, but still quite high :)
[16:02] <fsphil> ah, just found out something I've always been curious about ... red light is between 430 and 480 THz :)
[16:02] <juxta> hehe
[16:02] <Randomskk> hehe
[16:02] <Randomskk> I was pondering this earlier, but then a few months later someone actually did it
[16:03] <Randomskk> yagis have been made for optical frequencies
[16:03] <juxta> fsphil, hence things like RONJA being unregulated
[16:04] <juxta> Randomskk, I wondered about that too - I imagine they would be insanely tiny though
[16:04] <Randomskk> they are
[16:05] <fsphil> I can't get my head around how yagi's work
[16:05] <Randomskk> http://www.nature.com/nphoton/journal/v4/n5/full/nphoton.2010.34.html
[16:06] <Randomskk> just think of it like light: the directors are like focusing lenses, the reflector is like a mirror, the driven is like the source/detector
[16:06] <Randomskk> to a crude analogy
[16:06] <fsphil> I understand that they're focusing .. I just don't get how. from the direction of the signal, the antenna is no bigger than a dipole
[16:07] <juxta> dark magic
[16:07] <fsphil> haha
[16:07] <Randomskk> haha what
[16:07] <fsphil> it's a glitch in the matrix
[16:08] <Randomskk> amateur radio operator ethics and operating
[16:08] <Randomskk> "The Radio Amateur is..."
[16:08] <Randomskk> "CONSIDERATE... He never knowingly operates in such a way as to lesson the pleasure of others."
[16:08] <Randomskk> "LOYAL... He offers loyalty, encouragement and support to other amateurs, local clubs, the IARU Radio Society in his country, through which Amateur Radio in his coutnry is representated nationallty and internationally"
[16:09] <Randomskk> "PROGRESSIVE... He keeps his station up to date. It is well-built and efficient. His *operating practice* is above reproach."
[16:09] <jonsowman_work> s/lesson/lessen/
[16:09] <Randomskk> "FRIENDLY... He operates slowly and patiently when requested, offers friendly advice and counsel to the beginner, kind assistance, cooperation and consideration for the interests of others. These are the marks of the amateur spirit"
[16:09] <Randomskk> s/coutnry/country too if you want
[16:09] <Randomskk> the best two are the last two though
[16:10] <Randomskk> "BALANCED... Radio is a hobby, never interfering with duties owed to family, job, school or community"
[16:10] <jonsowman_work> haha
[16:10] <Randomskk> "PATRIOTIC... His station and skills are always ready for service to country and community"
[16:10] <jonsowman_work> :\
[16:10] <juxta> haha
[16:11] <juxta> our curriculum is not that specific Randomskk ;p
[16:11] <Randomskk> "As hams, we address one another exclusively with their first name (or nickname), never with mister, miss nor misses or with a family name. This is also true for written communication between hams."
[16:12] <Randomskk> "The ham etiquette says we greet one another in our writings using '73' (not best 73 nor many 73), and not sincerely or other similar formal expressions"
[16:13] <jonsowman_work> mm ham
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> ASSHAT... He only talks about his piles.
[16:13] <jonsowman_work> hahaa
[16:13] <fsphil> I listened to someone on 80m for 10 minutes talking about the milk from asda
[16:13] <jonsowman_work> fsphil: why?
[16:13] <fsphil> to see how long he'd go for
[16:13] <fsphil> I give up in the end
[16:14] <jonsowman_work> :D
[16:14] <fsphil> seemed an odd subject to be broadcasting to the world
[16:14] <Randomskk> "Repeaters should not serve to inform the XYL that you are on your way home and that lunch can be served... Contacts through amateur radio concern primarily the technique of radio communications"
[16:15] <jonsowman_work> what?
[16:15] <fsphil> not dairy products?
[16:15] <fsphil> sheesh
[16:15] <Randomskk> this "ethics" guide is a load of crap
[16:15] <jonsowman_work> or ailments
[16:16] <Randomskk> oh here we are. section II.7 WHAT DO YOU TALK ABOUT ON THE AMATEUR BANDS?
[16:16] <Randomskk> "The subjects of our communications shoudl always be related to the amateur radio hobby. Ham radio is a hobby regarding the technique of radio communications in the broad sense of the term. We should not use amateur radio to pass along the shopping list for tonight's dinner..."
[16:17] <Randomskk> "Some subjects which are a *no no* in amateur radio conversations on the air are:
[16:17] <Randomskk> * religion
[16:17] <fsphil> fair enough
[16:17] <Randomskk> * politics * business * derogatory remarks directed at any group * bathroom humour: if you wouldn't tell the joke to a ten year old child, don't tell it on the radio * any subject that has no relation whatsoever with the ham radio hobby"
[16:17] <Randomskk> wow, that last one is quite broad
[16:19] <jonsowman_work> the last one automatically eliminates all the preceeding ones
[16:19] <Randomskk> it does rather
[16:19] <Randomskk> well
[16:19] <jonsowman_work> i'm going to get a radio license and talk about milk/ailments
[16:20] <Randomskk> all of this is "suggestions"
[16:20] <Randomskk> I can legally do 400W on any allowed frequency and whistle
[16:20] <Randomskk> so long as I remember to identify
[16:20] <jonsowman_work> heh
[16:20] <jonsowman_work> identify in CW whistling
[16:20] <Randomskk> hah
[16:21] <Randomskk> get a radio license, then we can get some 2m handhelds and do shopping lists for sainsburies or something
[16:21] <jonsowman_work> excellent
[16:21] <Randomskk> or more like
[16:21] <jonsowman_work> or just walk round sainsburys and discuss foods
[16:21] <Randomskk> "MXXXX from M0RND, dinner time?, over"
[16:21] <Randomskk> "MXXXX from M0RND, look at your irc, over"
[16:21] <jonsowman_work> haha
[16:22] <jonsowman_work> "walk 3m down the corridor - my door's open"
[16:22] <Randomskk> hah
[16:22] <jonsowman_work> use the repeater too
[16:22] <Randomskk> oh of course
[16:24] <Randomskk> If signals are not very strong and if the readability is not perfect, you can spell
[16:25] <Randomskk> out your name etc. Example: My name is John, spelled juliett, oscar, hotel,
[16:25] <Randomskk> november ... Do NOT say ...juliett juliett, oscar oscar, hotel hotel, november
[16:25] <Randomskk> november. This is not the way you spell the name John.
[16:25] <jonsowman_work> hahaa
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[16:29] <jonsowman_work> bbl
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[16:38] <Randomskk> oh, wait, I found the full schedule
[16:38] <Randomskk> it is in fact 400W PEP on almsot all bands, a few with lower limits, and the really high microwave frequencies are also 400W
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[17:59] <griffonbot> @jonsowman: CUSF v2 predictor now with caching http://hexoc.com/hab/predict/predict/ #cusf #hexoc [http://twitter.com/jonsowman/status/19090895581]
[17:59] <Randomskk> :D
[18:00] <Randomskk> much faster!
[18:00] <jonsowman> oops forgot #cusf was griffonbot'ed
[18:00] <Randomskk> excellent
[18:00] <jonsowman> i left #ukhas out on purpose to prevent twitter spamming
[18:00] <Randomskk> what other showstoppers are there before wider deployment?
[18:00] <jonsowman> UTC'ing
[18:01] <Randomskk> ah yes
[18:01] <Randomskk> timezones are annoying
[18:01] <jonsowman> yeh
[18:01] <jonsowman> really
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[18:01] <jonsowman> whoa this is so much better :D
[18:04] <jonsowman> so cron to delete cache hey
[18:07] <jonsowman> ls /tmp/pydap-cache -1 | grep -v `date +"%Y%m%d"` | xargs rm
[18:07] <jonsowman> ?
[18:08] <Randomskk> sec
[18:13] <jonsowman> it doesnt like that
[18:13] <Randomskk> back
[18:13] <Randomskk> error?
[18:13] <jonsowman> rm: cannot remove `nomads.ncep.noaa.gov,9090,dods,gfs,gfs20100728,gfs_06z.dds,403d495aadd9b70b093357e0a22a0783': No such file or directory
[18:13] <Randomskk> oh
[18:13] <jonsowman> several times over
[18:14] <Randomskk> cd there first
[18:14] <Randomskk> ls is only putting filenames not paths
[18:15] <jonsowman> permission denied
[18:15] <jonsowman> even with sudo and rm -f
[18:15] <jonsowman> ah there we go :)
[18:20] eroomde (~ed@oort.chu.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[18:20] <eroomde> Randomskk, you have an ideapad s10-2 don't you?
[18:24] <Randomskk> yes
[18:24] <Randomskk> maybe
[18:24] <Randomskk> yes, yes it is
[18:25] <Randomskk> jonsowman: got cache deleting working?
[18:25] <Randomskk> eroomde: new predictor now caches wind data
[18:25] <Randomskk> it's awesome
[18:25] <Randomskk> I monkeypatch a cache control function in libhttp2 in pydap
[18:26] <eroomde> cool
[18:26] <jonsowman> Randomskk: i think so, cronjob installed
[18:26] <eroomde> well, you should consider a pixel qi hack
[18:26] <eroomde> i am temped to get one just for the pixel qi
[18:26] <Randomskk> what's this now
[18:26] <Randomskk> blimey
[18:26] <Randomskk> that looks epic
[18:27] <eroomde> a screen that is adaptively reflective rather than backlit so you can carry on fine outside
[18:27] <eroomde> it looks quite incredible
[18:27] <eroomde> coding whilst watching cricket
[18:27] <Randomskk> $275 though
[18:27] <eroomde> i just got a prize for engineering. i have a cheque coming. am sorely tempted
[18:27] <Randomskk> a prize for engineering eh? :o
[18:27] <eroomde> 'free' money afterall
[18:28] <eroomde> vim by the river
[18:28] <eroomde> python on a punt
[18:28] <eroomde> bash on the beach
[18:28] <Randomskk> CAM on the cam?
[18:28] <Randomskk> I guess CAD really
[18:28] <Randomskk> but still
[18:28] <eroomde> oCaml?
[18:29] <Randomskk> so basically there are endless puns
[18:29] <eroomde> Ruby on the tube-ey
[18:29] <eroomde> C by the sea
[18:29] <jonsowman> D:
[18:30] <Randomskk> okay so that is totally on my list of things I want soon
[18:30] <Randomskk> just need money now
[18:31] <Randomskk> along with a power supply for my radio, an oscilloscope, parts for the weather station, ...
[18:31] <Randomskk> oh, and another 4gb of ram
[18:31] <eroomde> get the psu first
[18:31] <eroomde> i need to get a batt for mine really
[18:31] <Randomskk> I have an atx power supply and a pcb that outputs to some okay headers
[18:31] <eroomde> how much ram can you get into the ideapad?
[18:31] <Randomskk> but it's still a total hack and a pain
[18:31] <Randomskk> no idea on the ideapad front, the 4gb is for my desktop
[18:31] <Randomskk> it comes with 1gb which is enough for most things I do on a netbook
[18:31] <Randomskk> mine did anyway
[18:31] <eroomde> how much of a scope do you want?
[18:31] <Randomskk> £300/£400
[18:31] <Randomskk> looking at
[18:32] <eroomde> could you survive with a basic dual-channel 20MHz hameg?
[18:32] <eroomde> the classic one (personally i love them)
[18:32] <Randomskk> quite possibly
[18:32] <eroomde> well EIETL have a wall of them (i am not joking, literally a wall) where you can help yourself
[18:32] <Randomskk> "help yourself"?
[18:32] <Randomskk> literally?
[18:33] <eroomde> they can't officially bin them for some accounting reason, but they only use digital scopes now
[18:33] <Randomskk> I have seen stacks of them sitting in EIETL
[18:33] <Randomskk> they are just there for the taking?
[18:33] <eroomde> yes
[18:33] <Randomskk> probes?
[18:33] <eroomde> well, ask the technician abviously
[18:33] <eroomde> no, not probes
[18:33] <Randomskk> still
[18:33] <eroomde> they sensibly keep them
[18:33] <eroomde> but yes, i picked up two yesterday
[18:33] <jonsowman> interesting
[18:33] <jonsowman> might have to investigate that
[18:34] <jonsowman> i want :)
[18:34] <eroomde> i have just got the horblower dvd box set
[18:34] <eroomde> woop
[18:34] <Randomskk> http://uk.farnell.com/tenma/72-8230/digital-storage-scope-60mhz-2-ch/dp/1739444 is what I was looking at
[18:34] <Randomskk> I wonder if I could drive up to cambs one weekend and grab some. is the eietl open generally?
[18:35] <eroomde> yep
[18:35] <eroomde> 9-5
[18:35] <Randomskk> sweet
[18:35] <jonsowman> me too
[18:35] <Randomskk> jonsowman: you said you were free the 7th....? :P
[18:35] <eroomde> that looks like a nice scope
[18:35] <Randomskk> eroomde: it does rather
[18:35] <jonsowman> yeh 7th :)
[18:35] <Randomskk> not a proper brand
[18:35] <Randomskk> but consequently cheap
[18:35] <Randomskk> they do it in 20/40/60/100mhz, 2/4ch
[18:35] <eroomde> have heard good things about another one recently too, which can be hardware hacked to be 100mhz bandwidth from 50
[18:36] <eroomde> (basically just an antialias filter, firmware seems identical)
[18:36] <Randomskk> yea, I think I saw that on had
[18:36] <Randomskk> however that's £350 I have a lot of other uses for
[18:36] <Randomskk> and in the interim 20mhz analogue is probably more than enough
[18:36] <eroomde> i really do like old green screens
[18:36] <Randomskk> all I want it for right now is developing the motor controller for my quadcopter
[18:37] <eroomde> but having some spectrum analysis capability on a digital one would be excellent
[18:37] <eroomde> just an fft would be super
[18:37] <Randomskk> talking of which, my 600W ATX power supply can't run the motor on low (no significant lift) speed
[18:37] <Randomskk> my 1A max 12V wall wart can
[18:37] <Randomskk> I suspect rush current is limited
[18:37] <Randomskk> but the ATX supply just cuts
[18:37] <eroomde> ATX's often require load balancing across outputs because of the way they switch and regulate
[18:38] <Randomskk> all the 12v outputs should be connected to this
[18:38] <Randomskk> but yea, perhaps
[18:38] <Randomskk> that's another thing on my list
[18:38] <eroomde> i.e. you may run into trouble pulling hard from the 12v but not using the 5v
[18:38] <Randomskk> a proper lab psu
[18:38] <Randomskk> none of this hacked atx shit
[18:38] <eroomde> i used hacked atx's for battery charging back in the day
[18:38] <eroomde> just too flakey i think
[18:38] <eroomde> yep, a proper job is worth it
[18:38] <Randomskk> so a psu for the radio, a psu for my desk, 4gb ram, pixel qi screen, weather station parts, free oscope
[18:39] <jonsowman> \o/ free stuff
[18:39] <eroomde> £60 from ML&S will get you 0-25V, 20A
[18:39] <Randomskk> for the radio?
[18:39] <eroomde> yes
[18:39] <eroomde> well, anything
[18:39] <Randomskk> don't I just want 13.8V?
[18:39] <eroomde> yes for the radio
[18:39] <eroomde> but having the option is nice
[18:39] <Randomskk> true
[18:39] <eroomde> so here is what I own:
[18:39] <Randomskk> also tempted to get a 2m handheld
[18:39] <Randomskk> but even cheap ones are circa £100
[18:40] <russss> Puxing
[18:40] <Randomskk> actually
[18:40] <russss> I got mine for ~£25 off ebay
[18:40] <Randomskk> I can get a 2m handheld free on loan from cambridge repeaters can't I?
[18:40] <eroomde> 0-25V (with a 13.8V fixed outoput when you flip a switch). sold it to cusf. then got one of the more quiet and discrete 13.*V things in about the same form factor as the ic-7000
[18:40] <russss> only does FM though
[18:40] <eroomde> Randomskk, 2m/70cm i beleive
[18:40] <eroomde> yep
[18:40] <Randomskk> maybe that'd be a better idea
[18:40] <russss> I actually bought the wrong model by accident but they were too cheap to bother sending back
[18:41] <Randomskk> that said £25 isn't much either
[18:41] <eroomde> So last summer i impulse bought a yeasu vx-7r
[18:41] <Randomskk> what model was it russss?
[18:41] <eroomde> it's actually great
[18:41] <eroomde> i have it doing radio 4 right now
[18:41] <Randomskk> hah :D
[18:41] <russss> PX-777 plus
[18:41] <russss> we have some of the UHF versions of those and they make excellent walkie talkies ;)
[18:42] <Randomskk> eroomde: vx-7r looks fun, does it do fm and ssb?
[18:42] <eroomde> i couldn't stretch to the vx-8 but the vx-7 is great. completely waterproof which is very useful
[18:42] <eroomde> no, not ssb
[18:42] <eroomde> but
[18:42] <eroomde> very few do ssb, and when they do it'
[18:42] <eroomde> s usually very dodgy
[18:42] <russss> http://www.pxdz.com/english/showpro.asp?id=2327
[18:43] <eroomde> i thought long and hard about this one, and whether or not to get the kenwood one with ssb. but just doing fm-handie (and am) very well, and being bomb-proof, i thought would be more useful
[18:43] <russss> ^^ £25-£30 (shipped) on ebay from hong kong
[18:44] <Randomskk> i.e. http://cgi.ebay.com/PUXING-PX-777-UHF-400-470MHz-Ham-Radio-Earpiece-/370401808045?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563dab0ead ?
[18:44] <Randomskk> and it's "professional"
[18:44] <eroomde> Randomskk, i'd be inclined to get something that can do 2m aswell
[18:44] <Randomskk> yea I think so
[18:45] <russss> eroomde: at that price you can buy *two* PX-777s for less than the price of most dual handhelds ;)
[18:45] <eroomde> especially as we tend to use 2m on balloon launches as 70cm 5w local completely swamps 70cm 10mW from 200km away
[18:45] <russss> (that's what I did)
[18:45] <russss> (accidentally)
[18:45] <eroomde> russss, can't argue there!
[18:45] <eroomde> might make a nice sattelite rig actually
[18:45] <russss> I was thinking about that, but I need a license.
[18:45] <eroomde> so...
[18:46] <eroomde> it's trivial - get foundation one requires you knowing ohms law and nothing else
[18:46] <Randomskk> really it is very easy
[18:46] <russss> yeah I know - I mostly finished whatever it used to be called when I was at school.
[18:46] <Randomskk> eroomde: do you know what the requirements are for running foundation exams and such?
[18:47] <russss> but the problem is that there's nowhere in central London which does them
[18:47] <eroomde> no where at all?
[18:47] <russss> you have to go out to the badlands of Bromley or Barnet.
[18:47] <eroomde> where did james get his, do you know?
[18:47] <DaveyC> i have the same problem here in Liverpool
[18:47] <russss> james did his at Bromley
[18:47] <russss> so I'm looking at running some at the Hackspace
[18:47] <eroomde> russs - you could combine a cambridge balloon visit with a foundation exam
[18:47] <russss> we don't have roof access though, which sucks a bit
[18:48] <russss> we have a balcony though
[18:48] <eroomde> i'm going to the cambrifge makespace meetup tomorrow incidently
[18:48] <Randomskk> oh?
[18:48] <eroomde> looking at trying to get a hackspace in cam
[18:48] <Randomskk> I want to go along to that
[18:48] <Randomskk> the SHDC one?
[18:48] <russss> ah, cool. Good to know they're still going.
[18:48] <Randomskk> or rather what was the SHDC
[18:48] <eroomde> yes, seems quite serious now
[18:48] <Randomskk> it does
[18:48] <eroomde> quite a few people have rsvp'd
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[18:48] <russss> http://makespace.org/ I think
[18:49] <russss> we just moved into a bigger space here in London (the council kicked us out of the old place), I hope we can afford the rent :P
[18:49] <eroomde> let's hope - where are you now?
[18:50] <russss> http://wiki.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/Laboratory_24
[18:50] <russss> it's a nice place
[18:51] <Randomskk> eroomde: do you have to be an Instructor RSGB style to run license exams?
[18:51] <eroomde> Randomskk, i don't know
[18:51] <russss> I think you do. I was talking about this with one of the Bromley guys.
[18:51] <eroomde> i think it differs quite a lot between found/intermed and full
[18:51] <Randomskk> instructorship seems to have all this shit to do with CRB checks and forms and things
[18:51] <russss> also the location has to be registered as an RSGB exam centre. But that's merely a formality I think.
[18:52] <eroomde> i have invigilated all of the different exams before and the full one is a great deal more strict
[18:52] <russss> anyhow, we can import an instructor from Bromley, we just need antennas and shit
[18:52] <Randomskk> the full one is generally more strict
[18:52] <Randomskk> then again 50W to 400W
[18:53] <russss> powar
[18:54] <eroomde> pff, 9dB
[18:54] <russss> heh
[18:54] <eroomde> nowt like a decent yagi
[18:55] <Randomskk> I wonder how many qsos have been made on 250ghz
[18:55] <russss> heh
[18:55] <Randomskk> amateur operators are the primary user of 2ghz there
[18:55] <Randomskk> that's a lot of bandwidth
[18:56] <Randomskk> almost as much as all the other commonly used bandwidth below 2.4ghz all put together
[18:56] <russss> free space path loss must be hell on 250GHz
[18:56] <Randomskk> I imagine so
[18:56] <Randomskk> switching losses must be hell on 250ghz, heck
[18:56] <Randomskk> and as for actually generating a stable 250ghz signal
[18:56] <Randomskk> have fun making a yagi for that too, I guess you'd just use waveguides
[18:56] <russss> although the lower noise floor probably compensates for some of that
[18:56] <eroomde> hmm the rigol scope does look quite nice
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> a small dish
[18:57] <Randomskk> a dish, even better
[18:57] <russss> tiny little dish. Teacup.
[18:57] <Randomskk> eroomde: hm?
[18:57] <eroomde> oh definitely a dish!
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> You can get megawatt 250GHz
[18:57] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrotron
[18:57] <eroomde> you could never make a 250ghx yagi in a million years
[18:58] <eroomde> Randomskk, was looking at this rigol scope
[18:58] <eroomde> it looks quite nice
[18:58] <eroomde> £260
[18:58] <Randomskk> which/where?
[18:58] <SpeedEvil> http://www.k.u-tokyo.ac.jp/news/20100105press-e.html microwave assisted rocket
[18:59] <eroomde> Randomskk, just ebay for rigol oscilloscope
[19:00] <eroomde> the hackable 50mhz one
[19:00] <Randomskk> oh, nice
[19:01] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: haha what
[19:01] <Randomskk> they just beamed a microwave at it so powerfully it took off?
[19:01] <eroomde> i am holding off on big purchases that i couldn't take to Oz atm
[19:02] <Randomskk> do you know whether you're going for cambs/aus yet?
[19:02] <Randomskk> it looks like the microwave heated the air inside the rocket so much it expanded out, neat
[19:03] <eroomde> no, not yet. hence the holding off on stuff
[19:05] <eroomde> the hornblower box set has just arrived from amazon
[19:06] <eroomde> i can see one of those sunday afternoons coming where i 'code whilst watching hornblower in the background' becomes 'spend 8 hours watching hornblower with 20 lines of python to show for it'
[19:06] <eroomde> bbl
[19:06] <Randomskk> seeya
[19:07] <jonsowman> cya ed
[19:11] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: there is a very neat proposal for assisted SSTO that way
[19:11] <SpeedEvil> you have an air-dropped comparatively tiny craft.
[19:12] <SpeedEvil> This flies over starting at about 10km and mach 1 into range of a 100MW 250GHz station
[19:12] <SpeedEvil> this beams onto the whole underside of the craft, which is covered with a heat exchanger, through whihc the hydrogen flows
[19:13] <SpeedEvil> several transmitters in series mean you get to orbit quite fast
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> aha
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> http://authors.library.caltech.edu/3303/1/PARaipcp04a.pdf
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> kiijs beat
[19:14] <SpeedEvil> looks neatg
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[20:03] <LazyLeopard> Sounds a bit like something Jodin Kare might enthuse about...
[20:05] Action: LazyLeopard was at the Bromley club last night. Still looking for an Intermediate course, as I couldn't make the latest Bromley one. Cray Valley appear to be running one in January, maybe.
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[20:19] <griffonbot> @BASE_DePauw: BASE 46 All recovered coming toward town #GPSL #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/BASE_DePauw/status/19099348463]
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[22:47] <jonsowman> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http://balloon.hexoc.com/ukairspace.kmz
[22:53] <Randomskk> there is a lot of airspace
[22:57] <fsphil> is that all the published notams?
[22:58] <Randomskk> I think that's airports and controlled airspaces rather than notams
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[23:01] <fsphil> CAMBRIDGE LASER SFC-18500ALT <-- the permanent notam?
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[23:04] <Randomskk> nothing to do with us afaik
[23:05] <fsphil> ah, thought with the 18500 altitude it might have been
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[23:06] <Laurenceb> hi
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[23:24] <SpeedEvil> Random. Does anyone hapen to recognise the GPS protocol from http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/gps.c
[23:24] <SpeedEvil> ?
[23:26] <Laurenceb> some binary something ro other
[23:27] <SpeedEvil> I'd gotten that far :)
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[23:28] <fsphil> ping jonsowman
[23:29] <fsphil> oh, n/m jonsowman -- though I'd found a bug in the predictor, but just me being stupid
[23:31] <fsphil> looks like I won't be flying this weekend
[23:32] <fsphil> next weekend even
[23:33] <natrium42> fsphil, :(
[23:34] <fsphil> unless I make a really slow ascent, and have it landing in england :) I'm soo tempted to do that ;-)
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[00:00] --- Thu Jul 22 2010