highaltitude.log.20100614

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[05:37] <griffonbot> @Alexdavid12: #CUSF 5 outs left in 2010 [http://twitter.com/Alexdavid12/status/16123370758]
[05:52] <griffonbot> @Alexdavid12: #CUSF can't believe imma actually watch this inning.. [http://twitter.com/Alexdavid12/status/16124091754]
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[07:17] <jcoxon> morning
[07:41] <juxta> hey jcoxon
[07:47] <jcoxon> hey juxta
[07:48] <jcoxon> hows it going?
[07:48] <juxta> not too bad, we have a holiday here today thanks to you lot :)
[07:48] <jcoxon> oh really
[07:48] <juxta> (Queen's birthday)
[07:48] <jcoxon> we don't!
[07:48] <fsphil> sheesh
[07:48] Action: fsphil is getting ready for work :p
[07:48] <jcoxon> well i do
[07:48] <juxta> hehe
[07:49] <juxta> has anybody dyed PCB's before?
[07:49] Action: jcoxon plans to do all his admin before lunch
[07:49] <juxta> I tried a method I saw on youtube using permenant markers... now my fingers are black & can't clean it off :(
[07:49] <juxta> plus it did a really crappy job on the board
[07:51] <jcoxon> i've never tried
[07:51] <jcoxon> juxta, when you planning to launch next?
[07:51] <juxta> soon soon
[07:51] <jcoxon> :-)
[07:52] <juxta> might even submit a NOTAM for the 21st if the weather holds out
[07:52] <jcoxon> very soon then
[07:52] <juxta> I put together a board with GPS, AVR & NTX2 on it, a single sided one that's easy to etch at home
[07:54] <jcoxon> :-)
[07:54] <jcoxon> thats pretty much what my atlas flight computer is
[07:59] <juxta> ah and there I was thinking i was pioneering ;p
[08:00] <jcoxon> hmmm need to remember how to upload images to the tracker
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[08:23] <jcoxon> wow i've forgotten how much I like rubycocoa
[08:23] <fsphil> jcoxon, when I tried uploading images it didn't work, seems to be a bug lurking about there
[08:27] <jcoxon> fsphil, i've just found my old code which did work so i'll see if i can find hte bug
[08:28] <fsphil> k - the images where uploaded fine, but didn't appear on the tracker. just got an empty box there if I remember rightly
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[08:29] <jcoxon> hmmm maybe its broken - hasn't been used in a very long time
[08:37] <fsphil> yea, my own fault for not testing before the flight ;)
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[09:53] <jonsowman> ,
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[11:07] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: ping
[11:08] <DanielRichman> hey jonsowman
[11:08] <jonsowman> http://hexoc.com/hab/predict/predict/
[11:08] <jonsowman> dropdown still working?
[11:08] <DanielRichman> it would appear to work
[11:08] <jonsowman> lovely, thanks
[11:08] <jonsowman> there was a rogue comma in the json
[11:08] <jonsowman> firefox and IE ignored it
[11:08] <jonsowman> chrome apparently had a (silent) strop
[11:09] <DanielRichman> hurr I broke it again
[11:09] <DanielRichman> maximise, put box in bottom right, minimse
[11:10] <jonsowman> hmm i can't really break it like that
[11:10] <DanielRichman> I'll send you a screen shot or two
[11:11] <jonsowman> thanks :)
[11:11] <jonsowman> have put drag handles in btw
[11:12] <DanielRichman> yeah I like those much better than the old way
[11:15] <DanielRichman> coming up (PM)
[11:15] <rharrison_> jonsowman, it might be good to store the last search in a cookie and default to that when loading if the cookie data is there
[11:16] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: ah i see what you mean
[11:16] <DanielRichman> it's not a srs bug
[11:16] <jonsowman> rharrison_: hmm that's an idea
[11:17] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: true, but I will try and fix it anyway
[11:17] <DanielRichman> yeah the chrome drop down deal is strange; it's just working now
[11:18] <rharrison_> That will save having to set all the launch parameters each time if checking from the same PC
[11:18] <jonsowman> rharrison_: you can just bookmark the URL and it'll auto-load the prediction and fill out the launch card with the parameters used when you return
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[11:21] <jonsowman> is that good enough?
[11:22] <GW8RAK> Morning all. Does anyone know what a gps does if it's altitude limit is exceeded please?
[11:22] <jcoxon> GW8RAK, it really depends
[11:22] <jonsowman> GW8RAK: entirely undefined - depends on GPS
[11:22] <jcoxon> some report 0.0
[11:22] <jcoxon> others don't have a lock
[11:22] <DanielRichman> some notify the pentagon
[11:22] <jonsowman> :o
[11:23] <GW8RAK> Do they come back on when under 18km? Or is it an unknown until tested?
[11:23] <jonsowman> unknown
[11:23] <jcoxon> again it varies
[11:23] <jcoxon> some sirfIII do, some require a reset
[11:23] <jcoxon> would be worth adding in a reset function in your code
[11:23] <jonsowman> most will probably find a lock again, but I've known GPSes to not get a lock again until after the payload has hit the ground
[11:23] <GW8RAK> My unit states OR limit, but then says in text that either may be exceeded, not both.
[11:23] <GW8RAK> So I think the only way to try is to launch.
[11:23] <jonsowman> GW8RAK: which GPS?
[11:24] <GW8RAK> So I'm thinking of a limited launch in August with just the basics on board.
[11:24] <russss> send it up with another payload
[11:24] <GW8RAK> jonsowman - Locsense, LS40EB
[11:24] <russss> just have a payload full of GPS receivers to test.
[11:24] <GW8RAK> russss - good idea
[11:24] <jonsowman> hmm i don't know that one
[11:25] <GW8RAK> But if we have a number of GPS units, do we risk them all getting lost, or get them all to downlink and find out which ones don't work?
[11:25] <GW8RAK> Actually, that last option wouldn't be so silly.
[11:26] <russss> just send them up with a known good payload for tracking
[11:26] <jcoxon> well we know that ubloxes work
[11:26] <GW8RAK> A Picaxe could easily read and dowlink 5 or 6 units.
[11:26] <jcoxon> and so do lassen iqs
[11:26] <russss> and you don't necessarily even need to downlink them, just log them.
[11:26] <GW8RAK> I also have a uBlox, but that requires a PLCC carrier, which I've not sourced yet.
[11:27] <jonsowman> jcoxon: you planning on launching wednesday?
[11:27] <GW8RAK> Lots of options. But, just to keep the motivation going, I'm still hoping for a initial launch in August.
[11:27] <jcoxon> jonsowman, well only in the sense of hitching a ride on the cusf flight
[11:28] <jonsowman> right OK
[11:28] <jonsowman> i haven't heard from Ed wrt that
[11:28] <jcoxon> i think he is trying to source balloons
[11:28] <jonsowman> I've emailed him via the CUSF list, but I'll phone him if I don't hear by tonight
[11:28] <jonsowman> right ok
[11:28] <DanielRichman> what is the CUSF flying?
[11:29] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: we're launching a couple of schools' payloads
[11:29] <jonsowman> I don't know the details of them; the tracker will be the Ferret one we used a while back
[11:29] <DanielRichman> ahh, cool.
[11:29] <DanielRichman> so the schools arn't doing tracking; they've got some experiments and such?
[11:29] <DanielRichman> and you're launching & tracking it for them?
[11:29] <jonsowman> exactly
[11:30] <DanielRichman> nice
[11:30] <jonsowman> wx looking good for a weds morning launch
[11:30] <jonsowman> http://hexoc.com/hab/predict/predict/#!/uuid=c5e66a245eae1ba9e59deef8e170957b69c3cce3 etc
[11:31] <jcoxon> i like it when it goes east
[11:31] <GW8RAK> West is best!
[11:31] <jcoxon> i don't like all the towns
[11:31] <jcoxon> also i can go home if it goes east :-p
[11:31] <DanielRichman> too many greenhouses
[11:34] <jcoxon> yay new glue sticks
[11:34] <fsphil> GW8RAK, my launch will be heading your way :p
[11:34] <jcoxon> sad that it makes me happy
[11:35] Action: russss will be in Malta this week unfortunately
[11:35] <GW8RAK> fsphil - that's good. If you need me on standby to recover it, then let me know. When are you thinking of launching?
[11:36] <fsphil> late july / start of august, then again in september
[11:36] <GW8RAK> If it's coming into North Wales, I'll put the drysuit and climbing gear in the car for all eventualities :)
[11:36] <russss> heh
[11:36] <jcoxon> GW8RAK, we should start that hobby - extreme balloon chasing
[11:37] <fsphil> haha
[11:37] <jcoxon> have it drop into somewhere rough
[11:37] <jcoxon> sort of like geocaching but more random
[11:37] <GW8RAK> I can also get canoe and sailing dinghy.
[11:37] <jcoxon> as an air cadet can we get dropped in?
[11:38] <GW8RAK> You may joke, but I have a meeting with the OC Ops at RAF Valley coming up to discuss RAF support.
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> Mid-air recovery.
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:38] <GW8RAK> But the downdraft from a Sea King may blow the payload away.
[11:38] <fsphil> there's a good chance it will end in in the irish sea, so if you wanna chase it then great ;-)
[11:39] <DanielRichman> didn't the CUSF go chasing out into the channel once?
[11:39] <GW8RAK> I'll get my Speedo's readay :)
[11:39] <GW8RAK> ready
[11:39] <jcoxon> GW8RAK, when i get round to launching BH5 you are going to be very well placed
[11:39] <jcoxon> as the winds have slightly reveresed now so we should get westward floats now
[11:41] <fsphil> if it goes further, I can probably arrange to chase it if it makes land
[11:43] <fsphil> ooh I finally got a reply from the IAA ... "Phone me"
[11:46] <jcoxon> is that the Irish CAA?
[11:46] <fsphil> yep
[11:46] <jcoxon> apparently they are a challenge to work with
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> Good luck fsphil!
[11:47] <fsphil> yea, johnny mentioned they where a bit slow.
[11:47] <jcoxon> do they do NI as well?
[11:47] <fsphil> nah, but I'm launching very close to the border
[11:48] <fsphil> depends on the winds really, but best to let them know
[11:50] <fsphil> how long does it take the CAA to process the application?
[11:50] <fsphil> I haven't heard from them since I send the form
[11:56] <jcoxon> a month
[11:58] <jcoxon> fsphil, you are right, something is broken
[11:58] <jcoxon> regarding picture uploading
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[13:30] <rjharrison> fsphil a month is good ATM
[13:30] <rjharrison> It's more like 2 with the ash cloud
[13:30] <rjharrison> Hi jcoxon
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[13:47] <fsphil> yea - I'll probably double check they got it, would hate to find out a week before that they never got the email!
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[15:27] <Randomskk> m0tek: any news from the schools?
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[15:33] <earthshine> afternoon
[15:35] <m0tek> Randomskk, bear with
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[15:55] <fsphil> earthshine, may I pm?
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[16:21] <earthshine> sure
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[17:05] <russss> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/science_and_environment/10307048.stm
[17:06] <russss> looks remarkably pristine
[17:06] <jshriver> nice
[17:06] <fsphil> was just about to say that
[17:06] <fsphil> considering what it's just been through
[17:07] <jshriver> is this the first time someone has returned an asteroid sample
[17:07] <russss> it's the first sample return from an asteroid yeah
[17:07] <fsphil> If it wasn't for the plants that photo could have been from mars
[17:08] <jshriver> heh
[17:08] <fsphil> reminds me of the photos the rovers returned of their heatshields
[17:08] <jshriver> anxious to see the results :) hope Japan releases technical data
[17:08] <russss> it's only something like the 3rd automated sample return from another body I think
[17:09] <jshriver> I've only known about moon samples
[17:09] <jshriver> should be fascinating to see what makes up the sampe
[17:09] <fsphil> There where a couple of lunar return missions done by the russians
[17:09] <fsphil> not sure how many where successful though
[17:10] <russss> the soviets successfully did 3 lunar sample returns
[17:11] <russss> then there was Genesis, which kind of failed, and Stardust
[17:11] <jshriver> what are those?
[17:12] <russss> Genesis was sampling the solar wind
[17:12] <russss> but the parachute didn't deploy in the sample return capsule because they fitted the accelerometers the wrong way around.
[17:12] <jshriver> oh I remember that, didnt someone launch a gell that capture micro meteorites and solar dust?
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[17:12] <russss> that was Stardust - it visited a comet but it didn't land
[17:13] <fsphil> I think Stardust collected extra-solar material to
[17:14] <jshriver> remember watching a documentary on it. Looked almost like jell-o but semi translucent.
[17:14] <jshriver> showed how dust would enter it and get stuck. :)
[17:14] <fsphil> aerogel .. (sp?)
[17:14] <jshriver> might have been not sure, thought aerogel was solid.
[17:14] <russss> it was aerogel yes
[17:15] <russss> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Stardust_Dust_Collector_with_aerogel.jpg
[17:32] <fsphil> I'd love to get a block of that stuff .. from the photos it's almost invisible!
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[17:32] <russss> it's exceedingly expensive in block form
[17:32] <jcoxon> ping natrium42
[17:33] <natrium42> hi
[17:33] <jcoxon> is the image upload thing working on hte tracker
[17:33] <russss> it's crazy stuff http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/aerogelcrayons.jpg
[17:33] <jcoxon> couldnt get it to work this morning
[17:33] <natrium42> it should
[17:33] <fsphil> haha, great pic
[17:33] <fsphil> could make for good insulation on a hab project
[17:33] <russss> that's like £100 worth of aerogel there I think
[17:34] <russss> http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16_17_69&products_id=89
[17:34] <russss> ah, they used to sell it in block form
[17:34] <russss> but they don't any more
[17:42] <natrium42> russss, http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16_17_69&products_id=107
[17:42] <natrium42> "Caution: Caffeine is toxic. Use normal safety precautions (wear a filter mask/respirator and gloves) when working with Caffeine. Accidental inhalation of fine particles can be dangerous."
[17:42] <russss> United Nuclear is doubtless the best shop on the internet
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[17:43] <natrium42> :)
[17:44] <russss> http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_4
[17:44] <fsphil> heh, I hope it's well packaged!
[17:45] <fsphil> that website looks a bit dated
[17:46] <sbasuita> http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=28_47&products_id=392
[17:46] <sbasuita> "Add a Jet Engine to your bicycle or use to power large scale RC models."
[17:46] <sbasuita> :D
[17:46] <jonsowman> i want one
[17:46] <sbasuita> holy crap scroll down for the badass bicyle actually fitted with one
[17:47] <jonsowman> :o
[17:47] <fsphil> lol
[17:48] <fsphil> love the duke nukem favicon
[17:50] <sbasuita> http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=27_82&products_id=534
[17:50] <sbasuita> yeah this definitely is the best shop on the internet
[17:50] <jonsowman> whooaa
[17:57] Action: SpeedEvil ponders his favourite shop on the internet.
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[17:59] <SpeedEvil> http://www.spacex.com/falcon9.php
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> Though they fail in having a nice one-click 'buy now' button.
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[18:02] <GW8RAK> I like the fact they provide pricing information.
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> That's good.
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> I would - if I had some more spare cash - really like ~100g to LEO/GEO
[18:02] <GW8RAK> It actually answers a lot of the questions which NASA or ESA wouldn't tell us.
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[18:03] <GW8RAK> Wouldn't we all.
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:03] <GW8RAK> If a big lottery win came my way, I think a personal cubesat would be a nice project.
[18:03] <russss> this one has a "Buy now" button http://www.interorbital.com/TubeSat_1.htm
[18:04] <russss> oh, they've got some pics of their bus up now, seems they use Radiometrix
[18:04] <GW8RAK> $8000 dollars to launch.
[18:04] <GW8RAK> That is almost tempting (If I had $8000) :(
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> If you make your payment with PayPal, we recommend you use the E-Check option. This will add only a $5.00 charge to the total cost of your TubeSat. If you use your credit card or other option with PayPal, there is a 3% charge ($239.00 on an $8,000 order). This 3% fee is shown in the prices below. If you use the E-Check option, you will be refunded the balance upon payment ($234.00 on an $8,000 order).
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> don't paypal frown on that?
[18:06] <GW8RAK> Paypal frown on anything which affects their income, including customer satisfaction.
[18:06] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[18:07] <GW8RAK> Reading the blurb about the Tubesat, it does get expensive when it only has a few months lifetime.
[18:08] <GW8RAK> But what a project.
[18:08] <GW8RAK> One of their suggestions is space burials!
[18:09] <GW8RAK> For the low mass you may have to send one limb at a time
[18:12] <SpeedEvil> I would be interested in playing with pulsed plasma thrusters.
[18:13] <SpeedEvil> For which the 3 months would be annoyingly low
[18:14] <russss> they have a gross mass of 0.75kg
[18:14] <russss> with 0.25g available for payload
[18:14] <russss> surely if you could get the pulsed plasma thrusters to work you could regularize the orbit? :)
[18:14] <SpeedEvil> I was under the impression it was a mostly circular orbit
[18:14] <natrium42> GW8RAK, they don't have a working launcher though
[18:15] <SpeedEvil> for which you'd need to not circularise, but raise
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[18:15] <SpeedEvil> for which low thrust engines don't work so well
[18:15] <russss> they actually saying "3 weeks to 3 months, depending on solar weather"
[18:15] <natrium42> and the company was established in 1996, much earlier than SpaceX
[18:15] <russss> fair point
[18:16] <GW8RAK> But their brochure does say "guaranteed" launch. Is that guaranteed to be on a launch or guaranteed to get into orbit?
[18:16] <russss> heh, I think it's guaranteed to orbit actually
[18:17] <GW8RAK> I don't think anything less would be an acceptable guarantee.
[18:18] <GW8RAK> With 32 Tubesats on board, their total launch cost is around $250K.
[18:18] <russss> it's ambitious, certainly
[18:18] <GW8RAK> The cost of getting into space is coming down.
[18:18] <russss> but 32 tubesats is only 24kg
[18:19] <russss> maybe double that to include their dispersal system
[18:19] <russss> that's $5000/kg
[18:19] <russss> to a very low orbit
[18:19] <GW8RAK> I wonder what the cost would be for a years lifetime?
[18:20] <GW8RAK> i.e. a year long orbit?
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> You need a very, very modest kick motor to go from a month to a year
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> IIRC that's ~200km raise in orbit.
[18:20] <russss> considering you're outside the majority of the atmosphere at that point, the energy you need to boost it is quite easy to calculate.
[18:20] <SpeedEvil> Which is...
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> About 40m/s
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> twice
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> 80, even
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[18:40] <jshriver> wonder what you could use the tubesat for.
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[18:55] <fsphil> I wonder how much for a lunar orbit
[18:56] <fsphil> I'd love to see an image of the earth during a total eclipse -- just the ring of the atmosphere visible
[18:58] <fsphil> heh, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,501891,00.html
[18:58] <fsphil> just saved myself a few million :)
[18:59] <jshriver> http://tomsastroblog.com/images/jaxa122609.jpg
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[18:59] <jshriver> beat me to it heh
[19:00] <fsphil> lovely image .. I wonder if there are any without the sun visible at all
[19:01] <GW8RAK> Not quite the same as DIY.
[19:02] <GW8RAK> Interorbital also have a crew capsule.
[19:02] <GW8RAK> Or rather a mock up and 3 boiler suits.
[19:03] <GW8RAK> For $10 you can buy 0.0042% of a rocket and collect the profits.
[19:04] <GW8RAK> It's almost worth it for the kudos.
[19:04] <fsphil> 0.0042% .. so maybe a nut or two
[19:05] <fsphil> I wonder if there'll be much profit in crew launches
[19:05] <fsphil> all the money seems to be in satellite or cargo
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[19:10] <GW8RAK> cargo is a little money many times, while the crew launch is probably quite a small market
[19:11] <fsphil> yep
[19:12] <GW8RAK> It's a interesting site. Loads on insight into the commercialisation of space.
[19:12] <GW8RAK> Advance deposits on bits of moon rock
[19:13] <GW8RAK> If I had known it was worth much, I'd have borrowed some from where I used to work
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[23:05] <jcoxon> evening all
[23:13] Upu (~Upu@ubn.upuaut.net) left irc:
[23:19] <griffonbot> @jamescoxon: #peg7 #ukhas #arhab Pegasus VII launch Thurs 17/06/10 ~11:00UTC, follow on http://spacenear.us/tracker, chat #highaltitude irc.freenode.net [http://twitter.com/jamescoxon/status/16180030782]
[23:22] <jcoxon> night
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[23:40] <griffonbot> @israelzuniga: RT @jamescoxon: #peg7 #ukhas #arhab Pegasus VII launch Thurs 17/06/10 ~11:00UTC, follow on http://spacenear.us/tracker [http://twitter.com/israelzuniga/status/16181155344]
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[00:00] --- Tue Jun 15 2010