highaltitude.log.20100607

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[08:01] <jcoxon> morning all
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[11:15] <GW8RAK> ping jcoxon
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[13:09] <jcoxon> hi GW8RAK
[13:10] <jcoxon> sorry i missed your ping
[13:10] <GW8RAK> Hi, no problems. Just a quick question about the ukhas data format.
[13:10] <jcoxon> go for it
[13:11] <GW8RAK> The details on the wiki show 6 figures after the decimal place. Is this fixed or is it variable please?
[13:11] <jcoxon> nothing is fixed in the format
[13:12] <jcoxon> for lat and lon i recommend at least 3
[13:12] <GW8RAK> Okay, great. That makes life easier. I realised over the weekend that the gps outputs minutes and decimal minutes, but not decimal degrees, so I'll have to do a little calculation.
[13:12] <jcoxon> well you can actualy leave it in DDmm.mmmm
[13:12] <jcoxon> if you want
[13:13] <jcoxon> the tracker can cope with that
[13:13] <jcoxon> though i personally find it hard to read
[13:13] <GW8RAK> Oh well, if that is the case, then I'll leave it at that. It's easy enough to read when you know what it is supposed to be, i.e. home location, but when it is in the air, it could be harder.
[13:14] <jcoxon> well the tracker will cope with the nmea format so you'll see it on the map
[13:14] <jcoxon> we've tried to make the dl-fldigi/tracker system as easy and flexibile as possible
[13:14] <GW8RAK> But if it accepts DDmm.mmmm, I'll send that and save myself some work. I'm hoping to have all the software done by the time I go on holiday at the end of the month, so it'll just be hardware when I get back.
[13:14] <GW8RAK> Sounds like you've done a good job.
[13:15] <jcoxon> yeah the reasoning was that you could just forward the nmea data slightly reformated
[13:15] <Randomskk> out of interest would it take totally raw nmea?
[13:15] <Randomskk> be a waste of bandwidth but still
[13:15] <jcoxon> yeah it probably could
[13:15] <Randomskk> also no packet numbers, no callsign
[13:15] <Randomskk> nmea does have a checksum though
[13:15] <jcoxon> you'd need to stick another $ in front\
[13:15] <jcoxon> :p
[13:16] <jcoxon> so your' payload would be GPGGA :-p
[13:16] <Randomskk> haha
[13:16] <Randomskk> nice
[13:16] <jcoxon> it would be pretty nasty though
[13:16] <Randomskk> tbh though sticking $ in front is as hard as reformatting it into something proper
[13:16] <jcoxon> hehe, yeah lets not promote sending raw nmea
[13:17] <GW8RAK> I've found the processing of the nmea data quite entertaining.
[13:18] <GW8RAK> Learnt rather a lot in the process and it's forced me to re-learn many things I'd forgotten.
[13:19] <jcoxon> yeah strings can be 'fun' to work with
[13:25] <griffonbot> @jamescoxon: Completed all the software for Pegasus 7 #peg7 now just need to wire it up and build the case #ukhas [http://twitter.com/jamescoxon/status/15625485688]
[13:25] <jonsowman> jcoxon: good work
[13:26] <jonsowman> picked a launch date?
[13:26] <jcoxon> just finished the text overlay on the sstv image
[13:26] <jonsowman> weather permitting in any case
[13:26] <jcoxon> looks pretty cool
[13:26] <jonsowman> :D
[13:26] <jcoxon> though one thought - is it better to have the images at 90 degs
[13:26] <jcoxon> as interference will cause a horizontal band
[13:27] <jonsowman> interesting poibnt
[13:27] <jcoxon> so should the horizon be horizontal or vertical
[13:27] <jonsowman> difficult
[13:38] <jcoxon> yeah launch window from the 14th onwards
[13:39] <jcoxon> yeah i'll wait for good weather but if its good on a weekday and I'm able to I'll launch
[13:39] <jonsowman> sounds good
[13:40] <jcoxon> need to catch edmoore at some poin
[13:40] <jcoxon> t
[13:40] <jonsowman> 17 :o
[13:40] <Randomskk> launching from chu?
[13:40] <jcoxon> if possible
[13:40] <Randomskk> cool
[13:40] <Randomskk> my exams finish tomorrow so I should be around :o
[13:40] <jonsowman> ditto
[13:40] <jcoxon> when is may week?
[13:41] <jonsowman> w/c 14th
[13:41] <jcoxon> oh right :-p
[13:41] <jcoxon> if i get time i'll whip together a seperate GM862+GPS tracker
[13:41] <Randomskk> hmm
[13:41] <jonsowman> what for?
[13:41] <Randomskk> this month's WIRED issue has a thing on HAB
[13:41] <jcoxon> backup
[13:41] <jonsowman> fair enough
[13:42] <Randomskk> well
[13:42] <jonsowman> can always use Ferret again if you want
[13:42] <jcoxon> jonsowman, would have to change freqs
[13:42] <Randomskk> a page on it, saying briefly that someone did it but w/o photos, but in the form on instructions, ends with "now send the results to editoral@wired.co.uk and we'll publish the best"
[13:42] <jcoxon> GSM backup is always good
[13:42] <jonsowman> ah yeh
[13:42] <Randomskk> if anyone wants a go at getting published in wired :P
[13:42] <jonsowman> Randomskk: go on :)
[13:42] <jcoxon> i ain't looking for publicity
[13:43] <Randomskk> jonsowman: we don't have any photos yet :P
[13:43] <Randomskk> otoh night launch
[13:43] <jonsowman> heh true
[13:43] <Randomskk> or just grab some stock cusf ones, could probably throw in a link to cusf and ukhas
[13:43] <jonsowman> yeh let's launch badgercub over the summer
[13:43] <jonsowman> needs some work on it first
[13:43] <jonsowman> yeh that might work :)
[13:44] <jcoxon> i think we should launch a stereo camera payload
[13:44] <jcoxon> and make 3d images
[13:44] <jonsowman> that'd be stunning
[13:44] <jcoxon> but you'd need a fair gap as things would be far away
[13:44] <Randomskk> eh
[13:44] <Randomskk> make a boom
[13:44] <Randomskk> spin like crazy
[13:44] <Randomskk> but eh
[13:44] <Randomskk> sync the cameras well
[13:45] <Randomskk> it'd be worth it.
[13:45] <jonsowman> there's a CHDK flavour that does it
[13:45] <jonsowman> can't remember the name
[13:45] <jonsowman> oh, StereoDataMaker
[13:45] <jonsowman> surprisingly
[13:45] <Randomskk> :P
[13:45] <Randomskk> can you see stereograms?
[13:46] <jonsowman> haven't tried for ages but i used to be able to
[13:46] <jonsowman> got a book of them when i was little and was fascinated for weeks
[13:46] <Randomskk> check out
[13:46] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/stereo_space/
[13:47] <Randomskk> from the telegraph
[13:47] <Randomskk> not fantastically 3d, but they are space and also 3d!
[13:48] Action: SpeedEvil thinks stereograms are in fact a conspiracy.
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> They're just random dots!
[13:48] <jonsowman> nice
[13:49] <russss> I would like all those stereograms the other way round please
[13:49] <russss> because I can only do the eyes-crossed thing
[13:49] <russss> :P
[13:51] <Randomskk> I'm not entirely sure which one I do now
[13:51] <Randomskk> I thought I had it right
[13:51] <Randomskk> but maybe I don't
[13:51] <Randomskk> however I can do it really quickly and it appears correct I think
[13:51] <Randomskk> :P
[13:51] <earthshine> afternoon
[13:52] <Randomskk> yo
[13:57] <russss> well to me the background stars appear to be in front of the subject of the photo
[13:58] <Randomskk> how do you know which are background and which are foreground stars
[13:59] <russss> I'm going to assume the larger ones are on average closer.
[13:59] <Randomskk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stereo_Pair,_Lake_Palanskoye_Landslide,_Kamchatka_Peninsula,_Russia.jpg
[13:59] <Randomskk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Asiatic_hybrid_lilium_stereogram_flipped.jpg
[13:59] <russss> anyhow, I know for the fact that most stereograms are generated for eyes-apart viewing, not eyes-crossed.
[13:59] <Randomskk> both appear the 'right' way around to me
[14:00] <russss> that second one is for eyes-crossed viewing
[14:00] <russss> so is the first one
[14:00] <Randomskk> interesting
[14:01] <russss> but as I understand it that's not the "standard" way of doing stereograms
[14:02] <russss> "The majority of autostereograms, including those in this article, are designed for divergent (wall-eyed) viewing." says wikipedia
[14:02] <russss> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostereogram
[14:03] <russss> "According to Magic Eye, a maker of autostereograms, "most people prefer the diverging method". However, with normal stereograms, this imposes a limit on the size of the image, since there is a limit to how much the eyes diverge; images created for the cross-eyed method can be larger. If a stereogram is viewed with the wrong method, the depth information is seen 'reversed'; points intended to be in the background appear in the foreground and vice
[14:03] <russss> versa."
[14:03] <Randomskk> curious
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[14:15] <jcoxon> guys i've moved the upcoming launches page back onto the main a page
[14:15] <jcoxon> of the ukhas wiki
[14:16] <jcoxon> as i think it'll make more sense for people visiting the site for the first time - would be good if we could keep it updated
[14:16] <russss> I think I moved it off the front page because it wasn't being kept up to date :)
[14:16] <jcoxon> yeah i remember
[14:16] <jcoxon> but a number of recent visitors have been asking about upcoming launches
[14:27] <juxta_> hi all
[14:28] <jcoxon> hey juxta_
[14:28] <juxta_> how's things jcoxon?
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[14:30] <jcoxon> good thanks
[14:30] <jcoxon> am jsut waiting for my exam results :-)
[14:30] <jcoxon> hows down under?
[14:35] <griffonbot> @nearsys: Getting ready for a near space launch in Nebraska. I'll be testing a new flight computer and camera mount. #ARHAB [http://twitter.com/nearsys/status/15629448261]
[14:37] <russss> this is crazy http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/06/07/senator-kay-bailey-hutchison-r-tex-disses-private-space
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[15:01] <juxta_> jcoxon: sorry, got distracted there
[15:02] <juxta_> things here are good
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[15:02] <juxta_> negotiating sponsorship for future launches at the moment, there are a couple of other aussies thinking of launching soon too
[15:03] <juxta_> some guys from the University of Sydney want to launch, I may end up going up to help out, depending on how things go :)
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[15:18] <earthshine> thats cool
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[16:50] <jcoxon> juxta_, hehe got distracted as well, seems like ballooning is 'taking off' in australia
[16:50] <juxta_> haha
[16:50] <juxta_> so to speak
[16:51] <juxta_> there's another guy from Adelaide too - Rob put me in touch with him
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[16:51] <juxta_> he's also planning something
[16:52] <jcoxon> cool
[16:59] <sbasuita> anybody got a link for that wired hab competition?
[16:59] <sbasuita> or a photo of the page in the magazine would be great
[17:00] <Randomskk> coming up
[17:02] <DanielRichman> euuuugh what is this!
[17:02] Action: DanielRichman uninstalls flash
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[17:03] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/wired_space.jpg
[17:03] <Randomskk> sbasuita: ^
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[17:10] <sbasuita> Randomskk: awesome, cheers :)
[17:11] <Randomskk> lol read it
[17:11] <Randomskk> "pack out any gaps with insulation to stymie space's sub- minus 200C chill"
[17:11] <Randomskk> yea really
[17:11] <Randomskk> apparently 0.5kg is the magic amount of extra lift
[17:12] <Randomskk> also conflating lithium-ion with lithiums, but check out the link to randomsolutions.co.uk :P
[17:12] <sbasuita> damn, even wired can't get it right
[17:12] <Randomskk> tweet them
[17:13] <Randomskk> be all "@wireduk what space isn't -200 you are crazy"
[17:14] <DanielRichman> aww leave them alone they're only journalists
[17:14] <sbasuita> Randomskk: i'll attach our temperature graph when i email them to prove them wrong ;)
[17:14] <Randomskk> :P
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[17:15] <jcoxon> the silly thing is that they don't mention that you'd need to setup your phone to be tracked
[17:15] <Randomskk> I'm not sure how one is meant to avoid airports or busy flight paths without having a clue what trajectory the balloon will take
[17:15] <jcoxon> oh wait they do
[17:15] <jcoxon> followus is pricey
[17:15] <Randomskk> yea
[17:15] <Randomskk> there are better ways
[17:15] <Randomskk> as we all know :P
[17:16] <sbasuita> what sort of deadline is there for sending the pics do we think?
[17:16] <Randomskk> I got this in the post today
[17:16] <Randomskk> it's dated july 10
[17:16] <Randomskk> so, a while
[17:16] <sbasuita> cool
[17:25] <jcoxon> high altitude balloons seem to be all the rage these days
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[17:25] <jcoxon> of course this article is going to mean lots of people are going to try
[17:25] <jcoxon> and might skip the first paragraph
[17:25] <rharrison> Is that the wired article?
[17:25] <jcoxon> hehe
[17:25] <jcoxon> yes
[17:26] <rharrison> I got a copy of that from a friend today
[17:26] <sbasuita> lots of people are going to end up with lost payloads without gps
[17:26] <Randomskk> did you enjoy the typical temperatures encountered
[17:26] <rharrison> hehe
[17:26] <Randomskk> poor sods at the CAA
[17:27] <rharrison> I think it would be good if we could get some fixed NOTAM's for HAB Locations and then force people to use those
[17:28] <rharrison> Ss DM can just say you need to coordinate with XXX to launch from A or YYY to launch from B
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[17:28] <Randomskk> we do have fixed notams for say EARS and chu
[17:28] <Randomskk> weren't you looking to get one near you for school work too?
[17:29] <rharrison> Well 6 Month windows but at the moment you have to have a named person on the NOTAM at the launch
[17:29] <Randomskk> oh, I see what you mean
[17:29] <rharrison> Randomskk, I have my request in the line Yep :)
[17:30] <Randomskk> dunno how you'd do it w/o requiring a person be there though?
[17:30] Action: Randomskk is now the contact for the chu one, fortunately no early morning phone calls from pilots yet
[17:30] <jcoxon> Randomskk, hehe thats not a fun jo
[17:30] <jcoxon> b
[17:30] <jcoxon> i used to be the main contact for chu
[17:30] <jcoxon> lots of 7am telephone calls
[17:30] <Randomskk> :P
[17:31] <jcoxon> though that was quite a few years ago
[17:31] <Randomskk> surprisingly none so far, not sure why it'd change
[17:31] <Randomskk> really need to get the website to clearly say when there's a launch or no
[17:31] <jcoxon> am on the ears list though :-)
[17:31] <rharrison> Randomskk, That is the tricky bit but I think it could be over come and limit the launch loactions to say 6 around the UK
[17:31] <Randomskk> be fairly easy to run hourly preds for six or so locations and greenlight them
[17:32] <rharrison> Yep that would be cool my hourly pred has died
[17:32] <rharrison> I changed the grib data to 90 hours rather than 180 hours
[17:32] <rharrison> and it's upset it
[17:32] <Randomskk> hmm
[17:32] <Randomskk> shouldn't kill it too much, weird
[17:33] <rharrison> I wasn't pulling all the data back in time for hourly updates
[17:33] <Randomskk> yea, it's a lot of data - you might want to consider reducing the lat and lon deltas
[17:33] <Randomskk> by default they are 10 which is massively overkill
[17:33] <rharrison> Do you have the cron entries for the pred
[17:33] <Randomskk> you can get away with 3
[17:33] <rharrison> Ok that's cool
[17:33] <rharrison> 5 would be fine too I guess
[17:33] <Randomskk> which really, really reduces the time taken
[17:33] <Randomskk> 9 vs 100
[17:34] <Randomskk> 3 is fine, really :P
[17:34] <Randomskk> either would be much better than 10, which is like spain
[17:34] <rharrison> hehe
[17:34] <Randomskk> also: the data is posted at approx 5am and every 6 hours thereafter iirc
[17:34] <Randomskk> so it's pointless getting it hourly
[17:35] <rharrison> That was my question on the cron entries
[17:35] <rharrison> should it be 0 0,6,12,18 * * * : Like that
[17:35] <Randomskk> get jonsowman's attention at some point and he has got them set up on his server I believe with sensible settings
[17:36] <Randomskk> I think that should be okay.
[17:36] <Randomskk> not entirely sure.
[17:36] <Randomskk> but yea, should be fine.
[17:41] <rharrison> ATM its 10 * * * * * and 5 * * * * * which is too freq as the bloody data hasn;t come down within the 55 min window
[17:41] <Randomskk> yup
[17:41] <Randomskk> definitely reduce the lat/lon deltas, it makes an absolutely massive difference
[17:42] <jonsowman> oh is this the hourly predictor
[17:43] <jonsowman> # 15 0,6,12,18 * * * www-data /bin/bash /var/hab/cusf-landing-prediction/scripts/grabdata-cronjob.sh # make sure this doesn't overrun
[17:43] <jonsowman> # 45 0,6,12,18 * * * www-data /bin/bash /var/hab/cusf-landing-prediction/scripts/hourly-predictions-cronjob.sh # then run the predictor
[17:43] <jonsowman> uncomment them, obviously :)
[17:43] <Randomskk> jonsowman: is your hourly running?
[17:43] <jonsowman> Randomskk: no
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[17:44] <jonsowman> take no notice of it, it's data from days ago
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[17:46] <jonsowman> rharrison: those lines are from /etc/crontab, if yours is running under root's crontab (can't remember) then delete the "www-data" bit
[17:46] <jonsowman> if not, change that to "root" or whoever
[17:47] <rharrison> jonsowman, cool
[17:47] <rharrison> Thanbks
[17:47] <rharrison> jonsowman, can you get 10 deg of data in 45 mins ?
[17:47] <rharrison> 30 mins
[17:48] <jonsowman> sometimes in 45 mins
[17:48] <jonsowman> never in 30
[17:48] <rharrison> but the line above says hourly after 30 mins?
[17:48] <Randomskk> blimey, books I ordered from amazon earlier this afternoon already dispatched and estimated to be here tomorrow
[17:49] <rharrison> but the line above says hourly-predictions-cronjob.sh after 30 mins?
[17:49] <jonsowman> that's with lat lon deltas of 3
[17:49] <rharrison> Randomskk, hehe just got an email from amazon as you said that
[17:49] <rharrison> Nice
[17:49] <jonsowman> with deltas of 3, the GFS grabber takes 10 min max
[17:49] <rharrison> I am reducing those too after randoms point
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[18:00] <rharrison> jonsowman, deltas of three is nice
[18:01] <rharrison> If I want to go loooooooong distance I think 5 would be plenty
[18:02] <rharrison> Actually I'm gonig to roll back to 3 as that is 6x6 grid
[18:02] <rharrison> vs a 200x200 grid
[18:03] <rharrison> assuing the deltas are from the mid point eg 52+-3 and 0+-3 = 6 by 6 grid
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[18:33] <jonsowman> rharrison: yes they are IIRC
[18:33] <jonsowman> Randomskk: can you confirm that?
[18:34] <rharrison> cool
[18:34] <jonsowman> ive my my hourly predictor running with 3x3 deltas for about a week and it hasn't caught it out yet
[18:34] <jonsowman> *had
[18:34] <Randomskk> they are indeed either way
[18:34] <jonsowman> thought so
[18:37] <rharrison> Right home time
[18:37] <jcoxon> :-)
[18:37] <rharrison> Advanced licence revision to do tonight :(
[18:37] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, can I pre-order good weather?
[18:37] <rharrison> It's great today
[18:37] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, oh yes, sorry i've been neglecting my weather duties
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[18:38] <DanielRichman> ok jcoxon I'm thinking the first third of july. What can you do?
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[18:42] <AlexBreton> evening
[18:42] <Randomskk> yo
[18:42] <AlexBreton> just wanted to give you guys a list of sensors we are considering for ALIEN-2
[18:42] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, okay, i appreciate the advanced warning
[18:43] <jcoxon> i'll pull a high pressure over for then
[18:43] <jcoxon> that should sort the JS for you
[18:43] <DanielRichman> awesome!
[18:43] <AlexBreton> CO2, O3, humidity, compass, pressure, and temp obv
[18:44] <DanielRichman> we were looking at various air sampling off-the-shelf sensors. We wanted to know if it's practical and worth it to do air samplin'
[18:45] <G8TMV> compass? for orienting the view from the camera? are you going to stabilise the balloon somehow?
[18:45] <AlexBreton> seeing where the camera is pointing yeah
[18:46] <G8TMV> Hmm.. how well do the sensors keep up, some of the balloon payloads rotate pretty fast
[18:46] <jonsowman> also likely to be swinging significantly
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> compass chips can typically react at several hundred hz
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> they are not an issue
[18:47] <DanielRichman> AlexBreton, we'd have to sync up the readings with the camera. That sounds like fun
[18:47] <AlexBreton> immense fun
[18:47] <Randomskk> like by using a timestamp on both?
[18:47] <AlexBreton> I'm looking forward to it :P
[18:47] <G8TMV> has anyone tried sail-like dampers on a payload to slow the rotation?
[18:47] <AlexBreton> thin air up there
[18:47] <SpeedEvil> yes
[18:48] <AlexBreton> would have little effect
[18:48] <jcoxon> G8TMV, apparently that makes it worse
[18:48] <SpeedEvil> edmore did
[18:48] <jcoxon> on some of the US flights at least
[18:48] <AlexBreton> easier for the wind to blow it
[18:48] <DanielRichman> unless we're taking constant readings of the compass... could do...
[18:48] <AlexBreton> basically makes it into a sail
[18:48] <G8TMV> what about a tail - like on a kite
[18:49] <G8TMV> just a length of cord should do it - like a sea anchor on a boat - where just a length of rope has a big effect
[18:50] <AlexBreton> any other sensors we should try and find?
[18:50] <G8TMV> UV or IR?
[18:51] <AlexBreton> UV...is there much UV up there?
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[18:51] <AlexBreton> worth measuring?
[18:51] <DanielRichman> yeah we fly above the ozone
[18:52] <jcoxon> AlexBreton, i'd think there would be loads of UV
[18:52] <rharrison> Like 100% on the sensor
[18:52] <DanielRichman> Who has tried air sampling before?
[18:52] <AlexBreton> so if it's 100% it's a bit boring
[18:52] <jonsowman> er doesn't the ozone layer go upto ~50km?
[18:52] <jcoxon> scientists :-p
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[18:53] <DanielRichman> jonsowman, if it has wikipedia has let me down
[18:53] <DanielRichman> s/it has/it does/
[18:54] <jonsowman> "...ozone layer in the stratosphere, the region from about 10 to 50 km (32,000 to 164,000 feet) above Earth's surface."
[18:54] <DanielRichman> ahh I see. Yes there iz ozone up to 50km but it's "mainly concentrated" lower down
[18:54] <jonsowman> "Ozone concentrations are greatest between about 20 and 40 km"
[18:54] <jonsowman> still, an O3 sensor would be interesting
[18:54] <rharrison> home time
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[18:54] <DanielRichman> and indeed from the opening paragraph (the only one I read first time round :P) "It is mainly located in the lower portion of the stratosphere from approximately 13 km to 20 km above Earth"
[18:54] <jonsowman> fair
[18:55] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, anyone UKHAS?
[18:55] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, not to my knowledge
[18:56] <jcoxon> i launched portable gas chromatograph in africa :-p
[18:56] <sbasuita> there is an air sampling payload on the wiki somewhere
[18:56] <DanielRichman> hmm oxford aerosol sbasuita ?
[18:56] <jcoxon> laurence build one
[18:56] <jcoxon> but never launched it
[18:56] <sbasuita> where has he been lately?
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[18:57] <sbasuita> DanielRichman:
[18:57] <sbasuita> ?
[18:57] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, was around 2 days ago...
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[18:57] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, you've got the permaidle logs; you look it up
[18:57] <sbasuita> hmm
[18:58] <DanielRichman> ok we'll look at perhaps getting some sensors then jcoxon. We'll run them by the channel first though
[18:58] <jcoxon> hehe have fun
[18:58] <jcoxon> don't over do it though!
[18:58] <DanielRichman> I told them that but AlexBreton won't listen
[18:58] <DanielRichman> something about the cost of a balloon
[18:59] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, the work will be split between team members; I'm doing the SSTV and these two between them will be chasing up the air sensors etc.
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[19:00] <jcoxon> that sounds sensible
[19:00] <jcoxon> well shout if you need any help with the sstv
[19:01] <DanielRichman> will do. I'm looking at getting the sstv to work purely on the AVR, although we'll be using a different atmega than the 168 once it works I can put the code onto the arduino with one of these maxim DACs I have and go on a PR rampage
[19:01] <DanielRichman> Arduino: bloggability +10
[19:02] <jcoxon> wow that would be amazing
[19:02] <jcoxon> as i've said before I think the mbed would be a good platform for SSTV
[19:02] <DanielRichman> the mbed does indeed look nice
[19:02] <DanielRichman> bit... big
[19:02] <jcoxon> with built in dac
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[19:03] <DanielRichman> true. The atxmega I want to use has one of those too. Will be ordering a dev board to test if it's good enough to produce sstv
[19:04] <DanielRichman> it almost definitely should be with some scaling
[19:04] <jcoxon> great
[19:05] <jcoxon> have a chat with steve as well - he wrote the sstv code i'm using
[19:05] <DanielRichman> will do. In 2 weeks :P
[19:05] <jcoxon> oh yeah
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[19:52] <jcoxon> evening G8KHW
[19:53] <G8KHW> yo
[19:55] <MoALTz> does anyone know the reason why "Metal propellers must not be used on internal combustion engines or electric motors." (CAA, modal aircraft)?
[19:56] <MoALTz> due to being dangerous is that only reason i can think why
[19:56] <sbasuita> could hurt somebody?
[19:56] <sbasuita> anyway on a model aircraft i'm sure plastic would be more efficient anyway
[19:56] <sbasuita> anyway ;P
[19:57] <MoALTz> thanks
[20:01] <G8KHW> What are the airspace rules relating to model aircraft flight in the UK?
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[20:02] <MoALTz> G8KHW: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP658.PDF has that info i think (i'm reading this currently)
[20:02] <MoALTz> http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1416&pagetype=90&pageid=8153
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[20:29] <Hiena> MoALTz, safety reason. The metal propellers tend to breaks without a notice. Also at impact the metal propeller brakes much easier, and the loose blade easily penetrate even a car door. (Seen it.) Also operating metal propellers easily could harm the modeller, due the higher momentum of the heavy blade. (Seen it too.) On the other hand the metal propeller make smoother run for the internal combustion engines, and had higher efficiency, due
[20:29] <Hiena> it's rigidity.
[20:30] <MoALTz> thank you - that is what i wanted to know
[20:33] <G8TMV> the smoother running is due to the flywheel effect of the increased mass, not the rigidity
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[20:47] <kleinjt> 18:11 < rthc> is this thing actually interesting?
[20:48] <kleinjt> er.. sorry, I accidently dumped my paste buffer..
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[20:55] <Hiena> G8KHW, the higher efficiency came from the less vibration, and the less flexibility.
[20:58] <Hiena> For the flywheel effect, i had a lead filled washers. It helps the older engines keep steady idle with a light propeller.
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[21:28] <griffonbot> @jonsowman: bit more work on the new predictor, comments/suggestions welcome :) http://bit.ly/crQxvk #cusf #ukhas #hexoc #apexhab [http://twitter.com/jonsowman/status/15654143408]
[21:29] <Randomskk> hey alien guys, maths gcse is a trending twitter topic, was it that bad
[21:29] <DanielRichman> er
[21:29] <DanielRichman> no.
[21:29] <sbasuita> tbf the steam and leaf diagram
[21:29] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, FREQUENCY POLYGONS omg!
[21:29] <sbasuita> pretty time consuming
[21:29] <Randomskk> haha stem and leaf diagrams, I remember those
[21:29] <Randomskk> good times
[21:29] <DanielRichman> yeah I put 53 in 43
[21:29] <Randomskk> I have maths tomorrow :o
[21:29] <DanielRichman> then came back
[21:29] <DanielRichman> and was like:O
[21:30] <sbasuita> the lack of calculator kept tripping me up
[21:30] <Randomskk> hurrah for checking working
[21:30] <Randomskk> oh I hate that. we get calculators.
[21:30] <sbasuita> haven't done long multiplication/division in ages
[21:30] <DanielRichman> Iknow. Each other question my right hand reached out for a calculator
[21:30] <DanielRichman> and found nothing ;(
[21:30] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, it's because on all the practice ones we used the calculator because it's just... easier
[21:30] <Randomskk> also my calculator will do complex numbers, quadratics, matricies, cubics, simultaneous equations
[21:30] <DanielRichman> habit.
[21:30] <Randomskk> it's so so useful
[21:30] <jonsowman> was very useful in that exam today
[21:30] <DanielRichman> My calculator can bruteforce equations. I have to use my brother's one in the gcse
[21:30] <Randomskk> it was rather
[21:31] <Randomskk> really
[21:31] <Randomskk> mine can brute force eqns
[21:31] <Randomskk> is gcse-valid
[21:31] <jonsowman> 100 / 90 + 50i
[21:31] <jonsowman> awesome
[21:31] <Randomskk> fx991es or whatever
[21:31] <Randomskk> jonsowman: quite so
[21:31] <DanielRichman> hmm well it might be valid Randomskk but I can't be bothered finding out
[21:31] <DanielRichman> the attitude of most teachers is more likely "go get another one, i cba finding out"
[21:31] <Randomskk> solving equations is such a useful feature, esp for checking algebra and shit
[21:31] <Randomskk> oh these days the paper's gay and just says like "any approved calc"?
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[21:32] <Randomskk> then again ours do too, but our approved calculators get sticker'd
[21:32] <Randomskk> jonsowman: what's new and sexy about the predictor?
[21:32] <Randomskk> also want me to do a "calcualting..." for time remaining thing in python
[21:32] <Randomskk> uh
[21:32] <Randomskk> well
[21:32] <Randomskk> w/o typo
[21:32] <jonsowman> just been tidying up and bug fixing a bit
[21:32] <jonsowman> just want as many people to test it as possible
[21:32] <jonsowman> wrt. "calculating", yes please
[21:33] <DanielRichman> does it cache the downloads?
[21:33] <Randomskk> not yet
[21:33] <Randomskk> tomorrow's exam first
[21:33] <DanielRichman> mmm ok
[21:33] <Randomskk> :P
[21:33] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: you can share the predictions though
[21:33] <DanielRichman> yeah that's neat jonsowman :)
[21:33] <Randomskk> and re-run the same prediction too
[21:33] <Randomskk> (with new wind data)
[21:33] <jonsowman> http://hexoc.com/hab/predict/predict/index.php#!/uuid=cf5b726e149041211ecc5a9554f3f7a52d5eba9b
[21:33] <jonsowman> for example
[21:33] <DanielRichman> how long do the links stay valid?
[21:34] <Randomskk> atm forever isn't it?
[21:34] <jonsowman> at the moment, forever or until i clear the directory manually
[21:34] <jonsowman> they will be under cron for 10 days
[21:34] <Randomskk> but re-running manually would keep the uuid valid
[21:34] <jonsowman> unless the prediction is re-run during those 10 days, wherein the timer is reset to another 10 days
[21:34] <Randomskk> thing is, tbh 10 days into the future is as far as you want to go
[21:34] <Randomskk> if that
[21:34] <Randomskk> 7 days really
[21:34] <jonsowman> yup
[21:35] <jonsowman> that's just a simple cron'd bash script, it can wait for now
[21:35] <DanielRichman> hmm I'm thinking... you might want to keep some data so that after a launch you can go back and see how good the prediction was
[21:35] <DanielRichman> just have to remember to do it before it expires
[21:35] <Randomskk> ah, true.
[21:35] <Randomskk> this is why I really, really want unification between tracker and predictor and other things
[21:35] <Randomskk> view real path and prediction overlayed etc
[21:35] <russss> http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100514-f-0000c-603.jpg
[21:36] <Randomskk> awesome
[21:36] <Randomskk> what is it?
[21:36] <Randomskk> shuttle?
[21:36] <russss> yeah
[21:37] Action: SpeedEvil finds falcon 9 much more awesome than shuttle.
[21:37] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, most of the maths gcse trending tweets are about the fact that it's trending (?)
[21:37] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: yes, I noticed that
[21:37] <Randomskk> they are contributing to the problem
[21:37] <Randomskk> silly metatweets
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> For around the same price as one shuttle launch - you can with falcon 9 launch _200 tons_
[21:37] <SpeedEvil> Which is about half of ISS
[21:37] <Randomskk> how many falcon 9 launches is that?
[21:37] <DanielRichman> What makes the shuttle so expensive? its design?
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: basically.
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman: It had _fucking_insane_ constraints on it.
[21:38] <Randomskk> it has all sorts of silly requirements or such?
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> For example.
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> The primary cost driver is the wings.
[21:38] <DanielRichman> wings eh?
[21:38] <SpeedEvil> The wings are there because it was a requirement to guess what?
[21:39] Action: russss knows this one :P
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> Launch from the continental USA, and put up a polar satellite, and then land back in the continental USA with enough crossrange to get back down.
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> on the original landing site.
[21:39] <russss> IN ONE ORBIT
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> This is basically the 'replace spysat' mission.
[21:39] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[21:39] <Randomskk> jonsowman: fixed & pushed
[21:40] <DanielRichman> what would doing it in one orbit actually achieve?
[21:40] <jonsowman> lovely
[21:40] <jonsowman> will pull it now
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> you don't overfly hostile territory so much
[21:40] <Randomskk> have not actually tested. :D
[21:40] <russss> they didn't want the russians to be able to track them enough to deduce the orbit of the sat
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> yeah - that too
[21:40] <DanielRichman> hmm, I was about to suggest that one orbit is enough anyway but I guess not
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> It is.
[21:41] <jonsowman> Randomskk: seems to work
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> That's not the hard part of the constraint.
[21:41] <russss> it certainly is now
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> The hard part is tacking on the ~1000Km of crossrange.
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> Which means you need wings.
[21:41] <russss> may not have been in the late 60s when they first set the constraint
[21:41] <DanielRichman> yup
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> Which has a horrible impact on every single subsystem.
[21:42] <russss> well, they always wanted/needed wings, but the delta-wing configuration was a direct result of that requirement
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> For example - it's a direct cause of most of the tile issues.
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> That - and the shuttle has to be - to a large degree - torn down after every mission.
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> yes - it's reusable - but the amount of work required to reuse it is huge.
[21:43] <DanielRichman> and they didn't want to fix/change it because doing so would be even more expensive than leaving it the way it is?
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> You can't fix it.
[21:43] <DanielRichman> well by change I mean design a new one
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> There is no simple one fix.
[21:44] <russss> by the time they knew they didn't need the requirement they were too far along
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> It's only - relatively - recently been discovered that teh early hopes of flying it once a week were bullshit.
[21:44] <russss> for the most part that's irrelevant though
[21:44] <SpeedEvil> If it was flyable once a week - most of these concerns go away - as the cost would plummet.
[21:45] <russss> because there was no money to fly it that frequently
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle-C - was actually a very sane proposal.
[21:45] <russss> if they had the money and the need to fly it once per week, they'd probably have sorted out most of those problems by now
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> That never really got political traction.
[21:45] <Hiena> And there was not enough ceramic tiles to fly that freauently.
[21:46] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, the Sea Dragon was the most reliable and sane proposal.
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> Perhaps, yes.
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> Though the falcon 9 has many sane features in it.
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> I love the 'hold downs that tie it to the pad until it's found that the engines are operating nominally'
[21:47] <Hiena> 500 tons to LEO with a single launch, and the oxidiser tank would remain on orbit.
[21:47] <russss> SpeedEvil: as far as I know the major reason for reusing the SRB/SSME design was that they were rated for human flight.
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> That - combined with the fact it's liquid - means that an engine out on launch - is 'meh'
[21:47] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, there was a similar for the shuttles.
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> not 'we're all going to die.
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: yeah - but once the SRBs are lit, you're going up.
[21:48] <russss> this is worth watching btw http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-885j-aircraft-systems-engineering-fall-2005/
[21:49] <russss> especially the first 2-3 lectures
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> interesting.
[21:49] <russss> lots of the original shuttle designers explaining why they did it that way
[21:49] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, sure. That is the reason. why i prefer the air breathing and the liquid fuel rocket engines.
[21:49] <SpeedEvil> I think I've gone on about my idea here before.
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> _really_ low-tech launcher.
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> 4 stages - each stage has either a 1/5th payload, a next stage, or a recovery system.
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> So you can fly each stage individually, and recover it.
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> Massive margins
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> And made out of _really_ low-tech stuff.
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> The disadvantage to this is that you have a huge mass ratio.
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> But - fuel is actually cheap.
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> For small - kilo or two - this makes sense.
[21:52] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, 2 stage, one long burn reusable pressure feed stage, and one short burn for the final kick.
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> For very small launchers, that's horribly marginal though
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> Very small as in GLOW under a ton
[21:53] <Hiena> If you kicks out the turbopumps, you could scale up single engine.
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> you basically need to dedicate the first stage mostly to cruise at mach 1 to ~20km
[21:54] <SpeedEvil> Well - or a balloon
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[21:58] <Hiena> Well, we will see it. I got an offer for 3 sq. meter 1.2 mm stainless steel sheet. That would be enough for a decent, low pressure combustion chamer.
[21:59] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil: you seem to know an absolute tonne about how to get off this rock ;D
[21:59] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> No funds alas.
[22:00] <Randomskk> or build ICBMs, it's not dissimilar
[22:00] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: how much do you know about nuclear bombs =D
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> Relatively little.
[22:01] <Randomskk> well, get learning :D
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> Enough to know the basic concepts - holhraum - radiative coupling - spark plug - ...
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[00:00] --- Tue Jun 8 2010