highaltitude.log.20100425

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[07:33] <earthshine> morning
[08:19] <juxta> hey Mike
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[10:58] <earthshine> hey juxta
[11:09] <juxta> how're things earthshine?
[11:18] <earthshine> good thanks
[11:18] <earthshine> and you ?
[11:22] <juxta> not too bad
[11:22] <juxta> long weekend here :D
[11:22] <earthshine> why's that?
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[11:56] <juxta> Anzac day earthshine
[11:56] <juxta> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzac_day
[11:58] <earthshine> ahh i see
[11:58] <earthshine> cool
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[12:22] <juxta> earthshine: any news on your payload?
[12:24] <earthshine> juxta: working on it
[12:24] <earthshine> running my own business takes up a LOT of my spare time
[12:25] <juxta> understandbaly, hehe
[12:25] <juxta> I'm hoping to launch again soon
[12:25] <juxta> but weather is a bit rubbish
[12:37] <futurity> earthshine: I'm also in the same boat running my own business
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[12:48] Action: Laurenceb is looking at the SFE autonomous vehicle competition
[12:48] <Laurenceb> university of arizona looks very cool
[12:51] <futurity> own business = very little spare time
[12:55] <earthshine> yep
[12:57] <fsphil> well this is a first -- got a motherboard and the clips that hold the heatsink over the CPU broke
[12:59] <Laurenceb> http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/pictures-of-all-the-avc-uav
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[13:45] <earthshine> store has moved - www.earthshineelectronics.com
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[15:24] <rjharrison> Anyone comming to BIG EARS next w/e
[15:48] <fsphil> I wish I was
[15:55] <rjharrison> It should be fun if the wx is good
[15:55] <rjharrison> I'm going to launch if wx allows it
[15:58] <jonsowman> predictor not looking great at the moment
[16:08] <rjharrison> jonsowman no :(
[16:08] <rjharrison> But it's a load of cods wollup at this distance from launch :)
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[16:21] <jonsowman> true
[16:35] <earthshine> i might go
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[19:36] <GW8RAK> Evening.
[19:37] <GW8RAK> I'm working on our project website tonight and I'd like someone's permission to use their photographs
[19:37] <GW8RAK> I'm after a typical high altitude shot.
[19:37] <GW8RAK> If anyone can help, it would be appreciated.
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[19:47] <rjharrison> DanielRichman I'm making some progress against the odds
[19:47] <rjharrison> gcc4.5 produces nice executables but they just die whhen run
[19:48] <RobertB> GW8RAK, ask rjharrison
[19:49] <RobertB> he's done some incredible shootings and is willing to share if you give him credit
[19:49] <rjharrison> GW8RAK sure
[19:49] <rjharrison> GW8RAK http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/collections/72157621244472915/ help yourself would quite like them creditied
[19:50] <rjharrison> credited even
[19:50] <GW8RAK> rjharrison - thank you very much indeed and you will certainly be credited.
[19:51] <GW8RAK> Is it Robert Harrison?
[19:52] <GW8RAK> Oh yes, just seen it on flickr
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> not on CNN?
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[20:13] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:17] <willrea> hi
[20:18] <jcoxon> evening Lunar_Lander and willrea
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[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> jcoxon do we have any flight newsß
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[20:27] <jcoxon> no flights in the UK currently
[20:27] <jcoxon> though a few waiting for the weather to improve
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[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok
[20:32] <jcoxon> i won't be launching for about 2months
[20:34] <Hiena> Well, well, well.... I got an awesome email from the Hungarian Airforce. They sent us a detailed email about the upcoming wargame, which will be held 26 of april until 7. of May. It contains the map of the limited airspaces, practice airfields, deployment zones, not only with images, but they sent us kml files.
[20:35] <russss> nice
[20:35] <jcoxon> thats so cool
[20:35] <jcoxon> oops - looks like the PBH guys forum has been spammed - its reporting 4294967295 replies to one of the forums
[20:35] <jcoxon> http://www.projectbluehorizon.com/mercuryboard/index.php?c=4
[20:35] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, 4294967295 is 0xFFFFFFFF
[20:35] <DanielRichman> bug?
[20:36] <jcoxon> must be
[20:36] <jcoxon> they have had quite a few issues
[20:36] <DanielRichman> :P
[20:37] <Hiena> So, i'll gave them A+ for the communication. Also the whole email was written in friendly manners. Wish the Civilian Air Control Office will learn from them.
[20:39] <jcoxon> yeah, they've obviously worked out that if they are clear about what they are doing then no one is going to disturb them
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[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> Hiena are you from Hungary?
[20:40] <Hiena> Yup.
[20:41] <jcoxon> bbl
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[20:41] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[20:43] <GW8RAK> Who developed/modified dl-fldigi for balloon use please>
[20:43] <GW8RAK> or rather ?
[20:43] <Hiena> Not really. We have a one hell Civilian Flight control regulation. Basically, we have a concrete roof at 3750 meter, and if you cross it, you could find yourself in prison for a 3 long years.
[20:46] <Hiena> "Endangering the commercial flight traffic" For a HA flight they requires at least two separated beacon (EASA ceritficated), 3 sq. meter radar mirror, EASA certificated telemetry, certificated cut-off mechanism, and at least two independent tracking station.
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> how much does the certification cost?
[20:47] <Lunar_Lander> that doesn't sound good
[20:47] <SpeedEvil> IO assume ruinous?
[20:48] <Hiena> Basically, if you put these together, it will ends up a payload weights around 12 kg. without the usefull payload.
[20:49] <SpeedEvil> Is that 3 square meters of total area, or cross-section?
[20:50] <Hiena> The beacons should be standard transponders, which costs around 800-2k EUR.
[20:50] <Hiena> Cross section.
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> So you're basically pretending to be a stationary plane
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[20:51] <SpeedEvil> Does the hungarian met-office- if there is such a thing - launch weather balloons?
[20:51] <Hiena> Yup. These rules was designed to keep away from the "holy commercial airspace".
[20:53] <Hiena> That different thing. The met-office is a government sponsored bunch, so they are in same legau as the control.
[20:55] <Hiena> Here, the officials basic thinking: Prevent the accident, deny everything which could cause accident. If they could deny it, due the should confom with the EU, they design rules, which requires impossible thing.
[20:56] <russss> so the met office balloons don't use all the transponder crap?
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[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> may I rant about Hungarian Air Control?
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[21:56] <earthshine> evening
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[22:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello earthshine
[22:20] <earthshine> Hi LL
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[22:21] <Hiena> Lunar_Lander, sure.
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[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> Hungarian Air Control is so outdated they need to lie in the grass to look at the planes over two sticks
[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:24] <Hiena> russss, more or less. The met office balloons use a very small expendable telemetries, and a 25x25 cm mirror.
[22:24] <russss> that sucks
[22:25] <Hiena> Basically an oversized party balloon with a little payload.
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> Hiena was my rant good?
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[22:29] <Hiena> Not really. ;) This isn't about, how outdated the system. Rather, how they tries to avoid the responsibility.
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> DFS was much more interested
[22:30] <Hiena> These are bureaucrats, saving they beacon.
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> they said it would be no problem after a pre-notification
[22:33] <Hiena> Wish i could have same here. I have plenty of question out of the standard atmosphere, and need to find answers.
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:34] <Lunar_Lander> which questions do you have?
[22:35] <Hiena> Speed of sound, subsonic HA flight.
[22:35] <Hiena> Also plenty control and stability issues.
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> I recently have thought about a vertical "speedometer"
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> would look like an anemometer
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> do you think that is possible?
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[22:41] <Hiena> Are you means variometer?
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> btw what is HA flight?
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[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> Hiena
[22:49] <Hiena> High Altitude.
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[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> something like SpaceFish on BEXUS?
[22:50] <Hiena> My problem is the Standard Atmosphere describe the things up to 15km.
[22:50] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: wander around the NASA site
[22:50] <Hiena> Over there, not so much information.
[22:50] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: there are assorted models for up to the magnetosphere
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> though you're probably interested moslty in the first 60km
[22:52] <Hiena> Yeah, but i want real datas, not models. There is a white zone from 30km up to 100km in the subsonic atmospheric flight.
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[22:53] <Hiena> The most device zip through this region 3 to 6 times of the speed of the sound.
[22:53] <Hiena> Not to mention, my guts says there is something missing....
[22:53] <SpeedEvil> how does it matter?
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> you know the density and composition
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> nothing magical is goign to appear
[22:54] <Hiena> Well, nobody ever tried to make subsonic spaceflight.
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> for damn good reasons
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> The atmosphere is too thin to even get to 80km realistically
[22:55] <Hiena> Yup, because they used a wrong method to reach the orbit.
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> err - what?
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> you still need to accellerate to ~10km/s - which takes ~20 times the energy that merely ascending to 80km/mach 1 does
[22:58] <Hiena> SpeedEvil, depends on, how much drag you face, when you accelerates. The most rocket burns the 2/3 of its fuel at the first 30km.
[22:58] <Hiena> Basically in the region, where possible the aerodynamic flight.
[22:58] <russss> yes but it also accelerates to mach 4 or something during those first 30km
[22:58] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: err - no
[22:59] <russss> yes, aerodynamic drag can be reduced, but the vast amount of fuel is still expended getting to escape velocity and not overcoming drag
[22:59] <Hiena> For example: With a vertical lauch, the SpaceShip One never would hit the 15km mark.
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: That only really starts to matter for small rockets.
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: Once you get below a few tons GLOW, it starts to matter.
[23:00] <russss> spaceshipone is suborbital and so the fuel budget is not comparable to an orbital launch
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: if you're at - say - the space shuttle - drag is an insignificant loss.
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> Hiena: The reason it cares about drag is not because it costs fuel - it (almost) does not.
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> It's to reduce aerodynamic loading
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> First source I found says the space shuttle limits max-Q to 27KPa
[23:02] <Hiena> And how much is the Shuttle frontal area?
[23:04] <russss> I would be interested to see a nice graph of how much fuel is used in the shuttle for overcoming drag, reaching altitude and reaching orbital velocity
[23:04] <russss> but I suspect the latter is the largest amount, at least by energy
[23:04] <russss> (hydrogen is bulky.)
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> It goes with sectional density
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> and the SRBs of course
[23:06] <Hiena> Well, hold that thoughts. I hafta sleep, because already tomorrow here. We will discuss it later. ;)
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/et.html - gives the ET as a diameter of 9m.
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> Call the frontal area twice that.
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> Or about 150m^2
[23:07] <Hiena> Night all!
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[23:07] <SpeedEvil> Is 4 meganewtons
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> Sea level thust is 30 meganewtons
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> so, the drag is a pretty small factor
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> oh
[23:13] <Lunar_Lander> what do you think about his thoughts?
[23:16] <russss> there are commercial aeroplane-launched orbital vehicles
[23:16] <russss> but I presume that if it was sufficiently more cost effective there would be more of them.
[23:16] <SpeedEvil> Basically - wrong-headed.
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> _somewhere_ I've got a graph of drag losses vs rocket size
[23:17] <SpeedEvil> Ballpark - once your rocket gets more sectionally dense than the atmosphere - things change
[23:18] <SpeedEvil> So once you have a weight of more than ~10 tons/m^2, with a decent drag nose on it - drag becomes lots less of a problem
[23:19] <SpeedEvil> Once you are a lot taller than that - you really don't care at all about drag as such - you care about the fact that it makes you slow down as structural loads from it can be nasty, unpredictable, and vibration-driving.
[23:20] <SpeedEvil> For small rockets - a few kilos launch weight - you essentially have to throw away the first stage coasting up at a bit under mach 1, and end up at 30km, and mach a few.
[23:20] <russss> rocket science is sometimes counterintuitive
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> For large rockets, the picture changes. For kerosene/oxygen a lot sooner than it does for hydrogen/oxygen
[23:21] <russss> I was going to make an "it's not rocket science" joke there but I think I'll go to bed instead.
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> as hydrogen is _horribly_ light.
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> Night. :)
[23:21] Action: SpeedEvil has doodles!
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> I've got a paper 4 stage orbital rocket.
[23:21] <SpeedEvil> EAch stage 5 times the mass of the previous stage, with the payload either another stage, or a recovery chute
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> so you can fly it multiple times, and then stack it and fly for real.
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> Id' better get to sleep too. Night
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[23:38] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[23:41] Lunar_Lander (~5488625f@gateway/web/freenode/x-kltsrxegmuetqrso) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[23:47] LazyLeopard (~irc-clien@chocky.demon.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Bye
[00:00] --- Mon Apr 26 2010