highaltitude.log.20100406

[00:01] <jcoxon> ouch
[00:01] <fsphil> yea
[00:01] <fsphil> teach me for having cables hanging of the desk
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[00:03] <jcoxon> just been chatting with v3sie, he records the telemetry with audacity, removes noise then decodes by ear
[00:03] <earthshine> evening
[00:03] <fsphil> night all !
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[00:07] <jcoxon> uh oh, big altitude drop
[00:07] <jcoxon> now descending at 2.1m/s
[00:07] <jcoxon> -
[00:10] <earthshine> it's going for a swim
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[00:44] <jcoxon> right night all everyone
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[00:48] <juxta> morning all
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[00:57] <earthshine> morning
[01:48] <Laurenceb> wheres the altitude data?
[01:49] <Laurenceb> wheres the 2.1m/s from?
[01:50] Action: Laurenceb is rather confused... that time is East coast or something right?
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[05:36] <natrium42> yello edmoore
[05:38] <edmoore> hi
[05:38] <edmoore> just off home to eng
[05:39] <natrium42> ah, have fun :)
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[07:00] <jcoxon> morning
[07:04] <jcoxon> pbh-10 is about to land in the water...
[07:15] <juxta> hey jcoxon
[07:15] <juxta> where abouts?
[07:16] <jcoxon> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=105638745832064046057.0004837ccd035a9d69b47&ll=36.844461,-64.335937&spn=15.834712,39.418945&z=5&iwloc=0004837f15d1ce1feb0fa
[07:20] <juxta> ah thats a fair way out
[07:20] <juxta> hey jcoxon, do you use a560's on your balloons?
[07:21] <jcoxon> have in the past
[07:21] <jcoxon> most of my payloads recently have been ballasthalos so haven't had any cameras
[07:21] <juxta> fair enough
[07:21] <juxta> they seem to be pretty hard to get hold of here
[07:21] <juxta> none on ebay usually
[07:22] <juxta> there's one right now though which I'm bidding on
[07:22] <jcoxon> basically get any camera which works with chdk
[07:22] <jcoxon> there are quite a few
[07:22] <juxta> yeah, have had a look at the chdk page
[07:22] <juxta> a friend has an a570, but doesnt seem to keen to loan it to me
[07:23] <juxta> too* keen
[07:23] <jcoxon> haha
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[07:23] <jcoxon> 1500m
[07:23] <juxta> is it being receieved quite clearly now?
[07:26] <jcoxon> its a challenge
[07:26] <jcoxon> only super hams are able to decode it
[07:26] <jcoxon> which is certainly not me
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[07:41] <jcoxon> its seems to be survivin
[07:41] <jcoxon> g
[07:41] <jcoxon> floating at 1500m
[07:56] <jcoxon> bbl
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[08:27] <earthshine> morning
[08:33] <russss> oh, it didn't move much overnight
[08:36] <grumbel_> Interesting, why did google earth blur the construction site where the baloon started?
[08:36] <grumbel_> Is this some military complex?
[08:37] <grumbel_> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=105638745832064046057.0004837ccd035a9d69b47&ll=42.096133,-76.223987&spn=0.002866,0.003278&t=h&z=18
[08:41] <rjharrison_work> Looks like it's on its last legs
[08:41] <rjharrison_work> 1200m
[08:41] <russss> looks like a watercolour
[08:41] <russss> heh
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[08:51] <ms7821> grumbel_: something to do with http://snipr.com/lm_ms2_owego
[08:52] <rjharrison_work> Hi juxta
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[08:53] <rjharrison_work> hi juxta
[08:53] <juxta> hey rjharrison_work
[08:53] <grumbel_> ms7821: Ah, Lockheed Martin
[08:53] <juxta> playing with my laptop and an ad-hoc wifi network there, whoops ;p
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[08:54] <rjharrison_work> juxta, cool
[08:54] <rjharrison_work> Any launches planned?
[08:54] <juxta> hoping for early next week
[08:54] <juxta> i'm building up a car pc at the moment
[08:54] <rjharrison_work> Cool did you follow up on that contact?
[08:55] <juxta> yeah, nothing heard back yet, will try them again though
[08:55] <rjharrison_work> Perhaps if you get some good pics back you should post them to that person
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[11:42] <rjharrison_work> anyone access to the hourly predictor? Could do with havving the max alt changed to 40k from 35k... On a mission :)
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[11:49] <Laurenceb> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=105638745832064046057.0004837ccd035a9d69b47&ll=36.844461,-64.335937&spn=15.834712,39.418945&z=5&iwloc=0004837f15d1ce1feb0fa
[11:49] <Laurenceb> doesnt look good
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[11:53] <g8khw-iPhone> Yeah - wet
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[13:12] <Randomskk> rjharrison_work: still around and in need of having the hourly predictions updated?
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[13:30] <jcoxon> afternoon all
[13:30] <Randomskk> hi
[13:35] <jcoxon> been looking at the last bits of data from PBH-10
[13:35] <jcoxon> it could still be floating
[13:36] <jcoxon> floating -> flying
[13:46] Action: jcoxon is going to hackspace this evening
[13:46] <fsphil> I listened a bit this morning, got nothing
[13:47] <jcoxon> fsphil, yeah, was listening on the radio which they got most of the data from
[13:47] <jcoxon> wb8elk was incredible at decoding by ear
[13:47] <jcoxon> he was saying how he can easily do 30wpm
[13:47] <fsphil> yea they mentioned him and one other in the last data point
[13:48] <fsphil> that's unreal
[13:49] <jcoxon> one of those stories where he learnt morse before he could speak
[13:49] <jcoxon> :-p
[13:49] <fsphil> he'd be good at the eme stuff
[13:53] <fsphil> was thinking about the idea of using an armature satellite to relay a signal from a balloon -- I think that would be worth experimenting with
[13:53] <fsphil> amateur even
[13:53] <fsphil> someone mentioned it yesterday, cant' remember who now
[13:53] <jcoxon> what sort of uplink power would be required
[13:53] <jcoxon> ?
[13:54] <fsphil> I've not done it myself, but it's line of site so it shouldn't need that much
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[13:54] <fsphil> and there are plenty of modes that work well with a weak signal
[13:55] <Laurenceb> ooh ST have a digital 3 axis gyro
[13:55] <fsphil> but it would be easy to test -- I can transmit a weak signal here, see if anyone can receive it
[13:55] <Randomskk> :o
[13:56] <jcoxon> fsphil, yeah
[13:56] <fsphil> though it does limit contacts to when a satellite is overhead
[13:57] <russss> people work satellites using handhelds
[13:57] <russss> http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/information/faqs/mobileQRP.php
[13:57] <jcoxon> russss, is there a soldering iron in the space that i can use this evening?
[13:57] <russss> indeed there is
[13:58] <jcoxon> great
[14:06] <jcoxon> right one more pass then i'll give up
[14:09] <Randomskk> UV LEDs are loads of fun
[14:10] <Randomskk> suddenly so many things become visible
[14:11] <fsphil> they are indeed
[14:11] <Randomskk> passport has disappointingly few UV related security features, just a load of fibres in the paper and the ink on the stamps of my russian visa
[14:11] <Randomskk> credit cards and driving licenses are chock full though
[14:16] <Laurenceb> ST L3G4200D
[14:16] <jcoxon> haha
[14:17] <Randomskk> oh nice
[14:17] <Randomskk> selectable scale too
[14:17] <Laurenceb> http://www.st.com/stonline/products/families/sensors/l3g4200d.htm totally awesome
[14:17] <Randomskk> 16bit
[14:17] <Laurenceb> yes, better that stm32 adc
[14:17] <Laurenceb> hmm just need to get some
[14:17] <Randomskk> 4x4mm, LGA
[14:17] <Laurenceb> maybe I should revise my pcb design
[14:17] <fsphil> decent gyro + pan/tilt camera == epic photos
[14:17] <Laurenceb> thought this might happen
[14:17] <fsphil> and non-dizzy video
[14:18] <Randomskk> LGA is potentially unfortunate but eh
[14:18] <Laurenceb> in 6 months there will prob be single IC IMU
[14:18] <Randomskk> SPI+I²C, 250/500/2000dps, builtin configurable LP and HP filters, ...
[14:18] <Laurenceb> guess in the real world you need to design off whats on mouser/digikey/farnell
[14:18] Action: Laurenceb checks
[14:19] <jcoxon> Randomskk, when is cam back?
[14:19] <Randomskk> term starts two weeks on thurs
[14:19] <Randomskk> by term I mean lectures etc
[14:19] <Randomskk> I go back two weeks last saturday
[14:19] <jcoxon> i might explode if i don't launch BH5
[14:19] <Randomskk> hehe
[14:20] <Randomskk> hourly predictions are looking up for once
[14:20] <fsphil> stop using hydrogen :p
[14:20] <jcoxon> well it'll be a floater
[14:20] <Randomskk> oh, wait
[14:20] <Randomskk> they /were/ last night
[14:20] <jcoxon> also i think the normal predictor is bust
[14:20] <Randomskk> sec
[14:20] <Randomskk> fixed
[14:21] <jcoxon> normal issue?
[14:21] <Randomskk> seems to have been
[14:21] <Randomskk> it makes a lock file when run and deletes it when finished
[14:21] <Randomskk> and often doesn't delete it
[14:22] <jcoxon> i guess if someone stops before it loads
[14:23] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: mouser has the best choice
[14:23] <Randomskk> any number of potential mishaps
[14:23] <Laurenceb> http://gb.mouser.com/Sensors/Gyroscopes/_/N-70eo6/
[14:23] <Laurenceb> all analogue
[14:24] <Randomskk> can't wait for that ST part to get into retail
[14:24] <Laurenceb> yeah me too
[14:24] <Randomskk> how long until that+accel in one package?
[14:24] <Laurenceb> st have magno + accel
[14:24] <Randomskk> like you say, probably a single IC IMU
[14:24] <Laurenceb> and now digital 3 axis gyro
[14:25] <Randomskk> or at least all the sensors
[14:25] <Laurenceb> so not long
[14:25] <Randomskk> and maybe a hardware fpu... :P
[14:25] <Laurenceb> probably a few months
[14:25] <Laurenceb> heh
[14:25] <Laurenceb> and stm32
[14:25] <Randomskk> yea, shove an stm32 core on too
[14:26] <Laurenceb> thing is from past experience st take 12 months or so to get to good avaliability
[14:26] <Randomskk> that might lead to noise/interference issues though
[14:26] <Laurenceb> it may take a long time before this stuff is obtainable
[14:26] <Randomskk> pity
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[14:33] <Laurenceb> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll
[14:34] <Laurenceb> all the digital ones on digikey - only single axis or crazy expensive AD stuff
[14:35] <Laurenceb> AD make an IMU module for $400 - alu alloy container 1'' square with M3 threaded holes and spi interface
[14:35] <Randomskk> builtin filters etc?
[14:35] <Randomskk> $400 is quite a lot though
[14:36] <Laurenceb> yes - and factory calibrated
[14:37] <Laurenceb> its probably a bit of an overkill unless you want it for your 747 or something
[14:37] <Randomskk> yea :P
[14:37] <russss> it's a bargain if you want it for a 747 ;)
[14:39] <Laurenceb> slight price difference compared to st analogue gyros
[14:40] <Laurenceb> I dont see how ST claim to do 3 axis rate gyro with a single mass
[14:41] <Randomskk> it's turly innovative apparently
[14:41] <Laurenceb> its motion must be in at least 2 planes AIUI
[14:41] <Randomskk> truely*
[14:41] <Laurenceb> maybe some sort of 3D figure of 8 path
[14:42] <Laurenceb> but getting 3 axis motion with mems and making it shock resistant is hard
[14:44] <Laurenceb> actually maybe it could follow an cirular path in the horizontal plane
[14:44] <Laurenceb> then have some capacitive pickups to see how its plane of rotation is shifted
[14:44] <Laurenceb> that gives pitch and roll rate
[14:45] <Laurenceb> then the phase lag relative to the driving signal might tell you yaw rate
[14:50] <Laurenceb> *then the eccentricity of the path tells you yaw rate
[14:51] <Laurenceb> its ingenious
[14:53] <Laurenceb> http://www.st.com/stonline/products/families/evaluation_boards/product_evaluation_boards/motion_sensors/inemo.htm
[14:54] <Laurenceb> http://www.st.com/stonline/products/families/evaluation_boards/steval-mki062v2.htm <- wow
[14:54] <Laurenceb> they stole my board design :P
[14:55] <Randomskk> :P
[14:55] <Randomskk> a colourful board
[14:55] <Randomskk> lookit all the colours
[14:56] <Randomskk> I suspect it is not as colourful irl
[14:56] <Laurenceb> I like it - tho ST parts then to be a bit poor
[14:56] <Laurenceb> - stm32 excluded
[14:57] <Laurenceb> I'd avoid their magno sensors, vregs and pressure sensor
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[15:03] <Laurenceb> looks like ST define Eval as limited samples avaliable for selected customers
[15:03] <Laurenceb> :(
[15:04] <Randomskk> :(
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[15:11] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb
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[15:32] <jcoxon> ping Laurenceb
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[15:44] Action: natrium42 looks at DanielRichman_P
[15:45] <DanielRichman_P> Sup?
[15:46] <natrium42> good jetstream, that's what :)
[15:46] <DanielRichman_P> Stop it
[15:46] <natrium42> :P
[15:46] <natrium42> you know i am playing, rite?
[15:46] <DanielRichman_P> Mmm
[15:48] <DanielRichman_P> So who _will_ be launching, then?
[15:48] <natrium42> rjharrison_work maybe
[15:48] <natrium42> i am getting permission for launch in 1 month
[15:49] <DanielRichman_P> I managed to have a look at the predictor (after negotiating the install of a new browser)
[15:49] <DanielRichman_P> Ooh, what are you launching?
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[15:53] Action: DanielRichman_P slaps natrium42 around a bit with a large Nokia N80
[15:53] <DanielRichman_P> wait, what
[15:54] Action: DanielRichman_P clicked a curious looking option in the menu
[15:58] <fsphil> "Don't Press"
[15:59] <Laurenceb> hi jcoxon
[15:59] <Laurenceb> sorry was afk, whats new?
[15:59] <jcoxon> was wanting to pick your brain
[16:00] <jcoxon> about ballast tanks
[16:00] <Laurenceb> go for it
[16:00] <earthshine> Crikey! Landing predictions that actually land in the UK !!
[16:00] <jcoxon> so you've suggested we place it outsie the tank
[16:00] <natrium42> DanielRichman_P, satellite phone
[16:00] <Laurenceb> oh I have some bulkhead hose connectors
[16:01] <Laurenceb> for connecting flexi hose to the tank
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[16:01] <DanielRichman_P> there was a 'slap' option in the menu with op, deop etc.
[16:01] <Laurenceb> yes, I suggested outside, as it shouldnt matter if it gets cold
[16:01] <jcoxon> to keep the density down we could place the tank in a second payload above the first
[16:01] <edmoore> back in angleand
[16:02] <jcoxon> welcome back edmoore
[16:02] <edmoore> what's the latest?
[16:02] <Laurenceb> yes density as well
[16:02] <jcoxon> my concerns were twisting of the tubing
[16:03] <jcoxon> in between the payloads
[16:03] <jcoxon> potential issue?
[16:03] <edmoore> is it down now?
[16:03] <jcoxon> last decode was 1300m
[16:04] <jcoxon> but it seemed to float for a while around 1500m
[16:04] <edmoore> what time was that?
[16:04] <jcoxon> 7:30am BST
[16:04] <edmoore> ok cool
[16:04] <edmoore> perhaps done what it's going to do then
[16:04] <jcoxon> seriously hard decoding
[16:04] <earthshine> Where did you go Ed ?
[16:05] <edmoore> though i do like the idea of a bag of sugar as a ballast some tens of meters below everything else
[16:05] <edmoore> earthshine: france
[16:05] <jcoxon> as a weight on your dipole it would be worth putting a float
[16:06] <jcoxon> so that if it gradually touches down
[16:06] <edmoore> then the sugar dissolves if it drops to the sea
[16:06] <jcoxon> it could float
[16:06] <jcoxon> edmoore, they tried that :-p
[16:06] <Laurenceb> CNES have flown that system
[16:06] <edmoore> did it work?
[16:06] <Laurenceb> yes
[16:06] <edmoore> i know someone's done it before
[16:06] <edmoore> cool
[16:07] <edmoore> though presumably you need a significant chunk to dissolve away quite quikly
[16:07] Action: Laurenceb likes the CNES MIR balloon more
[16:07] <edmoore> otherwise it'll just gently bounce along the sea bed rather than gain any significant alt
[16:08] <edmoore> oh well, if nothing else PBH means I have no succumbed to a twitter account
[16:08] <jcoxon> haha
[16:08] <Laurenceb> eww twitter
[16:08] <Laurenceb> I'm convinced its an experiment in media driven fad creation
[16:08] <jcoxon> Laurenceb, twisiting tubing?
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[16:09] <Laurenceb> hmm...
[16:09] <jcoxon> if we used 4 lines from each corner between the payloads
[16:09] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:10] <jcoxon> and the mass should keep it untwisted...
[16:10] <jcoxon> tempted to do something similar for BH5
[16:10] <edmoore> is this for a tether?
[16:10] <jcoxon> edmoore, more taking the ballast tank out of hte main payload
[16:10] <jcoxon> to keep the density down
[16:11] <edmoore> density of what?
[16:11] <jcoxon> well FAA rules require that a payload is kept under a particualr density
[16:11] <edmoore> neat
[16:11] <allenk> Is that balloon still up?
[16:11] <edmoore> well anyway, you could try the ribbon cable stuff used by climbers and so on (instead of rope) as a tether as that's much more resistant to twisting
[16:12] <jcoxon> yeah thats a good point
[16:12] <jcoxon> thats what cnes use
[16:12] <jcoxon> back in the day
[16:12] <edmoore> allenk: I understand it's down now. or at least it was last heard very very low and hasn't been heard since
[16:12] <jcoxon> it had 2hrs still sun rise
[16:12] <jcoxon> and a few people have checked since
[16:12] <allenk> can somebody link me to the map?
[16:13] <jcoxon> http://www.projectbluehorizon.com/index.php?a=mission
[16:13] <edmoore> their map isn't a patch on spacenear.us
[16:13] <allenk> It was supposed to end up in turkmenistan?
[16:13] <jcoxon> haha
[16:15] <allenk> BAD time for HF
[16:15] <allenk> Conditions VERY bad
[16:15] <allenk> last night it sounded like my radio was inside the sun
[16:16] <jcoxon> yeah it certainly was a challenge
[16:16] <jcoxon> had to get hte best morse decoders on the job
[16:16] <jcoxon> software didn't even touch it
[16:16] <allenk> They should have done PSK31
[16:16] <allenk> You can pull PSK31 out of static
[16:17] <edmoore> hellschriber!
[16:17] <allenk> Heh, I want to do hellschrieber with someone
[16:17] <earthshine> The way the csea currents are going it should end up in Guyan
[16:17] <earthshine> *sea
[16:17] <edmoore> allenk: it looks pretty cool doesn't it
[16:18] <allenk> Yeah
[16:18] <allenk> sounds cool too :D
[16:18] <DanielRichman_P> Bbl
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[16:20] <allenk> There are some WEIRD modes out there
[16:20] <jcoxon> allenk, psk31 is a challenge with the hardware used
[16:20] <edmoore> i think we might be inclined to use it for hab too if we could
[16:21] <jcoxon> dominoex
[16:22] <jcoxon> tis the answer
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[16:23] <allenk> dominoex sounds bad :P
[16:23] <edmoore> it sounds cool
[16:23] <jcoxon> and it'll work on the current hardware
[16:23] <allenk> why can't PSK be done?
[16:23] <jcoxon> iirc something steve has been working on
[16:23] <edmoore> it passed he cross-cambridge-without-LOS test
[16:24] <edmoore> we put it on badger1 about 2 years ago
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> allenk: it's hard to generate a 90 degree phaseshift with the current transmitter.
[16:24] <SpeedEvil> allenk: well - nearly impossible
[16:24] <allenk> oh
[16:24] <edmoore> i could decode it from my room with badger1 in queens, but couldn't decode rtty
[16:24] <jcoxon> well both the radiometrix but also the Rockmite HF transmitter
[16:25] <allenk> How much power does the CW transmitter have?
[16:25] <edmoore> 10mw
[16:25] <edmoore> oh sorry, ignore that
[16:25] <allenk> Oh, that's why I couldn't hear it :D
[16:25] <edmoore> misread
[16:25] <edmoore> i thought you meant our transmitters. not pbh
[16:25] <jcoxon> i think its about 0.5W
[16:25] <allenk> heh
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[16:25] <allenk> what kind of antenna?
[16:26] <jcoxon> end fed dipole i think
[16:26] <jcoxon> well it was wire and hung down from the payload
[16:26] <allenk> decent
[16:28] <edmoore> so the theoretical swr of end-feds is not quite up to the of a pure dipole, i think i'm right in saying
[16:28] <jcoxon> i think pure dipole is so easily done with the balloon as well
[16:28] <edmoore> but these big hab balloons are an ideal set-up for a full-length dipole
[16:28] <jcoxon> hehe
[16:28] <edmoore> fazackerly jcoxon
[16:28] <jcoxon> awsomesaurus
[16:29] <edmoore> hip-hop-o-potamus
[16:29] <jcoxon> yeah!
[16:30] <edmoore> and i think the radiation pattern of an end-fed is also not symmetric about the horizon, which is also a good thing for a trans attempt
[16:30] <edmoore> the good thing being the dipole pattern, rather than the end-fed pattern
[16:30] <jcoxon> something we can do for our launch then ed :-P
[16:30] <edmoore> when is it - next week?
[16:31] <jcoxon> hehe
[16:31] <jcoxon> not that i know of
[16:31] <edmoore> infact from tomorrow i am going underground for about 3 or 4 weeks - Final Ever Exams (tm)
[16:31] <GW8RAK> as the length of an end fed is increased, the radiation pattern concentrates in lobes pointing in the direction of the wire axis
[16:31] <jcoxon> hehe i'm in that club as well
[16:31] <GW8RAK> In balloon terms up and down
[16:34] <edmoore> GW8RAK: i wanted to ask you an antenna q if hat's ok
[16:35] <edmoore> ?
[16:35] <GW8RAK> You can ask, but I don't know if I'll have the answer
[16:35] <fsphil> hellschriber is pretty cool, if I get on HF sometime I'll give it a shot
[16:37] <edmoore> those pneumatic masts, that go to say 15m. if you run an active element up their length, say for a 40m quarter-wave antenna, will the mast itself affect things? should it be isolated from the active element? it'd always be within about a 20cm radius of the antenna itself
[16:39] <GW8RAK> Yes, the mast will affect the antenna. How it affects it, will depend on whether the mast is earthed or insulated from it. I have seen some recommendations for suggested stand off from the mast. The army 8m (?) mast used to be insulated from the ground, so it could be used as the active element.
[16:40] <GW8RAK> Current 5.6m masts are fibreglass and the user runs a wire up the outside to an optional 2.4m whip on the top.
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[16:40] <edmoore> interesting
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[16:41] <GW8RAK> For a ballon HF antenna, what about a Zepp aerial? Named after the Zeppelins, they are designed to work without an earth or any ground effect.
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[16:42] <GW8RAK> I know of some people using extended double Zepps on 6m and 4m and they claim excellent results.
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[16:43] <GW8RAK> work calling, back in 5 mins
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[16:54] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: LIS3LV02DL or ADXL345 accel ?
[16:54] Action: Laurenceb is trying to decide
[16:54] <Laurenceb> the ST one has very low drift over temperature, but the AD one has much lower cross axis and non linearity, and FIFO, but has 2 fewer bits
[16:55] <Randomskk> I have the AD one
[16:55] <Randomskk> but it's a compromise, both are presumably quite good
[16:55] <Laurenceb> I guess the AD one is ultimately better
[16:55] <Laurenceb> oversample to gain bits
[16:56] <Laurenceb> and bias drift is easier to filter out
[16:56] <Laurenceb> compared to cross axis and nonlinearity
[16:56] <Laurenceb> so if you get really clever with the code AD may perform best
[16:57] <Laurenceb> I looked at Freescale and Mesmic but they arent up on a par with ST and AD
[16:58] <Laurenceb> freescale had a nice app note about mounting mems stuff - they advise agains vias under LGA packages
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: the ST one can be oversampled
[16:58] <Laurenceb> I might change the layout a bit
[16:58] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: the 302 that is
[16:58] <Laurenceb> yes, good point, but no FIFO to make it easier
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: the 100hz mode is definately discrete
[16:59] <Laurenceb> grr decisions decisions
[16:59] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: but the 400hz mode has enough noise to dither it
[16:59] <Laurenceb> the one I linked can do 2.6KHz
[16:59] <Laurenceb> the Ad one 3.2
[17:00] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[17:02] <GW8RAK> Does anyone know of any licence exempt HF frequencies?
[17:03] <russss> in the UK I don't believe there are any
[17:03] <russss> as I understand it you're a lot more likely to generate interference through HF transmissions
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[17:05] <GW8RAK> I suppose the problem is the greater potential range of HF, but as frequency allocation is decided on a global basis, any channel would need to be available thoughout a region.
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[17:28] <fsphil> since amateurs can't TX from a balloon, is there another license that would allow operation from the air?
[17:29] <russss> only I think if you're in the air with it.
[17:29] <edmoore> a special research license/NoV from Ofcom
[17:29] <russss> or that.
[17:29] <fsphil> but that's tricky to get though?
[17:29] <edmoore> very
[17:29] <edmoore> or very very expensive
[17:29] <Randomskk> russss: amateurs can't be in the air with it
[17:30] <fsphil> hmpf, there really is no way around it
[17:30] <Randomskk> UK hams are just totally not allowed to operate airborne
[17:30] <edmoore> if you're BAe and want to develop UAVs for example, the cost is fine.
[17:30] <russss> Randomskk: yeah, I was referring to the flight radio license :)
[17:30] <Randomskk> russss: ah, fair enough
[17:31] <fsphil> UK hams are not even allowed to operate from a tethered balloon
[17:31] <Randomskk> I still want to try using visual frequencies for funsies but I don't think you'd get quite the same range
[17:31] <edmoore> fsphil: i don't think that's strictly correct
[17:31] <Randomskk> however a research team have actually done what I was thinking about a while back, namely make a yagi for the 500nm band
[17:31] <Randomskk> it's a bit tiny
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[17:32] <Randomskk> yo jcoxon
[17:32] <russss> haha
[17:33] <rjharrison> evening master coxon
[17:33] <jcoxon> good evening
[17:33] <rjharrison> I assume PBH is down
[17:33] <jcoxon> tis my assumption as well
[17:33] <rjharrison> Not sure what they were trying to achive there
[17:34] <rjharrison> wx is moving south
[17:34] <rjharrison> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/hourly-predictions/
[17:34] <jcoxon> rjharrison, oh they are going to go for the trans-a
[17:34] <fsphil> maybe they wanted some media attention :)
[17:36] <rjharrison> jcoxon, but not with that launch
[17:36] <jcoxon> no no
[17:36] <rjharrison> or was that an attemopt
[17:37] <jcoxon> but its certainly their aim
[17:37] <rjharrison> Yep they still need to do it
[17:37] <rjharrison> and come to that so do we
[17:37] <jcoxon> oh i think they'll pull it off
[17:37] <rjharrison> I think we should pip them at the post
[17:37] <jcoxon> haha
[17:37] <rjharrison> jcoxon, they would of last year
[17:38] <rjharrison> if Iceland hadn't called time
[17:38] <rjharrison> HOwever it's a new team this year?
[17:38] <jcoxon> yeah
[17:38] <jcoxon> and season is pretty much over
[17:39] <rjharrison> Untill August?
[17:39] <jcoxon> october
[17:39] <rjharrison> Cool so basically till then to get controlled flight sorted and coms
[17:40] <jcoxon> yup
[17:40] <rjharrison> They are launching big stuff too
[17:40] <jcoxon> yeah
[17:40] <rjharrison> I assume we won't be much lighter
[17:40] <rjharrison> ZP
[17:40] <jcoxon> oh their balloon is 10x larger i think
[17:41] <rjharrison> than natriums ZP?
[17:41] <jcoxon> yup
[17:41] <jcoxon> http://www.projectbluehorizon.com/index.php?a=system
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[17:52] <fsphil> too many buzzwords on that page
[17:53] <jcoxon> hehe
[17:54] <rjharrison> fsphil I agree way too many
[17:54] <fsphil> and a lot of leveraging
[17:54] <rjharrison> hehe
[17:54] <rjharrison> I like our aproach
[17:55] <juxta> hurrah I won the a560 I was bidding on
[17:55] <fsphil> yea
[17:55] <fsphil> "just do it"
[17:55] <rjharrison> Alot more down key... I guess typically british
[17:55] <rjharrison> Yep I like that
[17:55] <edmoore> a560s are selling well atm
[17:55] <rjharrison> Just do it
[17:55] <rjharrison> :)
[17:55] <jcoxon> 'just do it' pah
[17:55] <rjharrison> Funny that
[17:55] <edmoore> we just tbought 2, another guy on here just bought 2 too
[17:55] <jcoxon> we still haven't done it
[17:55] <fsphil> lol
[17:55] <rjharrison> It's the thought that counts
[17:55] <fsphil> well, just do it :p
[17:56] <rjharrison> well, just get on with it :)
[17:56] <juxta> edmoore: they're few and far between on ebay here - what do they go for in the UK?
[17:56] <edmoore> oh are we bitching about how corporate and un-amateur PBH is?
[17:56] <rjharrison> well it used to be < 50 quid
[17:56] <edmoore> i like this conversation
[17:56] <fsphil> you missed it edmoore
[17:56] <fsphil> maybe next time
[17:56] <edmoore> shame
[17:56] <edmoore> still, they're launching again
[17:56] <fsphil> shortly?
[17:57] <juxta> mine cost me ~55GBP posted, so I guess that's fair
[17:57] <rjharrison> I have a couple of a560's here but I'm looking for something a bit more fun soon
[17:58] <fsphil> Any decently priced HD cameras yet?
[17:58] <juxta> let me know if you want to move them along rjharrison ;)
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[17:59] <rjharrison> juxta, they are quite happy here atm :)
[17:59] <edmoore> so here's a thought that was discussed about preventing balloon tangles
[17:59] <rjharrison> Witing for good wx
[17:59] <juxta> hehe
[17:59] <edmoore> having the parachute hanging from the bottom of the flight train intead
[17:59] <rjharrison> I still like my rule of 1/3rds
[17:59] <rjharrison> So far so good on 5/5 launches
[18:00] <rjharrison> I can imagine the payload falling through the parachute in the first few seconds of descent. But assuming that it's fine after that then on the bottom would be cool
[18:00] <juxta> yeah I thought about that, then it can invert on the way down - but you'd probably get more wind buffeting the payload around on the way up as the chute wouldn't be held taut
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[18:01] <edmoore> it's surprisingly stable
[18:01] <edmoore> we've had a parachute drag on the way up on about 3 of our 17 flights
[18:01] <edmoore> doesn't seem unstable, though we use non-crap parachutes
[18:03] <edmoore> but if you had say a 200g payload and a 3kg balloon, the remains of the balloon present a comparitively much larger obstacle to the parachute
[18:04] <rjharrison> Icarus I had a nice inverted flight to ground due to balloon mass > payload mass :)
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[18:38] <rjharrison> any chance of updating the hourly predictor to max alt of 40k
[18:38] <rjharrison> I'm hoping to have a stab when the wx improves
[18:39] <Randomskk> yea
[18:40] <Randomskk> done
[18:40] <Randomskk> wait for next scheduled update
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[18:40] <junderwood> Suggestion for an update to the hourly predictor - red dots for 40km (optimists) and green dots for 30 km (realists)
[18:41] <rjharrison> Randomskk thanks
[18:41] <rjharrison> I'm hoping for a big one here
[18:41] <rjharrison> junderwood :)
[18:41] <Randomskk> 40km is going to make it more likely to end in a watery death
[18:41] <Randomskk> probably
[18:41] <Randomskk> brb
[18:41] <rjharrison> Yep but hey you have to think big
[18:41] <junderwood> or in Holland / Germany / Poland / China
[18:42] <rjharrison> Oz :p
[18:42] <junderwood> That would be clever
[18:42] <rjharrison> I'd get a badge for that and perhaps a little more publicity
[18:43] <rjharrison> but to be honest I have had enough of that
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[19:33] <Lunar_Lander> hello jcoxon
[19:33] <jcoxon> hey Lunar_Lander
[19:35] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[19:36] <jcoxon> good thanks
[19:36] <Lunar_Lander> mine too
[19:37] <Lunar_Lander> Physicist's Math 2 exam tomorrow
[19:37] <Lunar_Lander> I hope I'll make it
[19:38] <Lunar_Lander> jcoxon I want to show you something
[19:38] <Randomskk> too soon for a "but only if you show him yours"?
[19:39] <jcoxon> just fired up my atlas flight computer
[19:39] <jcoxon> it still works
[19:39] <Randomskk> nice
[19:39] <jcoxon> even after its trip to the netherlands
[19:39] <Lunar_Lander> for everyone
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=15117
[19:40] <jcoxon> cool
[19:41] <jcoxon> what sort of temps do people use with their nice soldering irons?
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[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> 270°C I think
[19:43] <Randomskk> depends on lead-free vs leaded
[19:43] <jcoxon> i guess the answer is the lowest that works
[19:43] <Randomskk> usually a little higher
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> not really.
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> you want higher than the lowest
[19:43] <Randomskk> you want to heat the whole joint well and quickly
[19:43] <SpeedEvil> otherwise you heat the parts more, as it takes longer to melt
[19:44] <Randomskk> yea
[19:44] <Randomskk> you want to get the whole thing over and done with asap
[19:44] <Randomskk> so, hot enough that the solder melts as soon as it touches the iron, if it were to touch it (which it shouldn't)
[19:44] <Randomskk> and then a little bit
[19:44] <Randomskk> in my case, approximately 380C
[19:47] <Lunar_Lander> I hope the people follow the contest :)
[19:54] <Randomskk> sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less
[19:54] <Randomskk> more for things sitting on ground planes etc
[19:54] <Randomskk> less for things like thin insulated wire &c
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> btw, does anybody of you use ICQ?
[19:55] <Randomskk> nope
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> I too because it's full of ads
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> I use this: http://www.qip.ru/ xD
[19:55] <Randomskk> you can connect to the ICQ network through a variety of clients though
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> I know
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> and I just discovered QIP and I quite like it
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> but nobody understands the website :P
[20:00] <fsphil> I still have my icq number from when it first started
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander> yay
[20:01] <fsphil> I use Empathy to connect to it
[20:01] <fsphil> not too much happening there now
[20:02] <jiffe1> I just get random msgs from russian people on there now
[20:03] <fsphil> yea
[20:07] <Lunar_Lander> same here
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[20:29] <fsphil> anyone here tried soldering a TQFP IC?
[20:34] <Randomskk> yes
[20:35] <Randomskk> not really difficult
[20:35] <Randomskk> probably the easiest smt ic package
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[20:39] <fsphil> ah good, the footprint was looking very small and fiddly
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[21:03] <jcoxon> earthshine, ping
[21:05] <earthshine> hey
[21:06] <jcoxon> what wires are required on the fsa03
[21:06] <jcoxon> ?
[21:06] <earthshine> not many
[21:06] <jcoxon> vcc, gnd, tx and rx
[21:07] <earthshine> yeah plus the battery connection
[21:07] <jcoxon> is that required?
[21:07] <earthshine> Not required no
[21:08] <earthshine> but useful for speeding up lock
[21:08] <earthshine> but if you have clear sky to the satellites it finds them pretty quickly froma cold start
[21:09] <earthshine> The TM output can be connected to an LED - it flashes once it gets lock
[21:13] <jcoxon> oh righ cool
[21:13] <jcoxon> well i've got nmea and its got the time
[21:13] <earthshine> reading using what ?
[21:14] <jcoxon> usb->serial
[21:14] <jcoxon> and kermit
[21:14] <earthshine> cool
[21:18] <earthshine> You'll need the u-center software to set the nav mode to aircraft
[21:18] <earthshine> either that or send the appropriate command over serial
[21:24] <jcoxon> okay cool
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[21:57] <rjharrison> DanielRichman the code is looking great
[21:57] <DanielRichman> :)
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[22:37] <Laurenceb> hi
[22:43] Action: Laurenceb has decided on ADXL345 over the ST accel
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[22:44] Nick change: SpeedEvil1 -> SpeedEvil
[22:45] <Laurenceb> better performance
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[22:45] <Laurenceb> once you do bias drift with temperature compensation
[22:46] <Laurenceb> the problem with ST is the nonlinearity and cross axis, which is harder to fix
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> characterising the cross axis may be fun
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[22:48] <Laurenceb> exactly
[22:49] <Laurenceb> you really need a 3x3 matrix for mapping readings onto axes
[22:49] <Laurenceb> and a 3x1 vector of biases
[22:49] <Laurenceb> but once you have high nonlinearity and cross axis as with the ST accel, its a nightmare
[22:50] <Laurenceb> tho I guess the interplay is a second order effect
[22:50] <Laurenceb> also the ST has large aging drifts, so calibration wont be valid for long
[22:53] <Laurenceb> the ST has lower noise, more bits and lower bias drift with temperature, but you can calibrate for bias drift quite well, and the noise isnt the limiting factor on performance
[22:53] <Laurenceb> the systematic errors dominate over random
[22:54] <SpeedEvil> http://laughingsquid.com/a-2-5-year-old-uses-an-ipad-for-the-first-time/
[22:55] <Laurenceb> you could just bench test the ADXL at two different temperatures and use this code - http://ukhas.org.uk/code:fit
[22:55] <Laurenceb> use the bmp085 for temperature measurement
[22:55] <Laurenceb> lol ifail
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[22:59] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/SqjxE.png <- thats finished then (if I'm sticking with ADXL345)
[22:59] <Laurenceb> had to go with molex for the rhs pin header in the end, but there are shorter connectors that are slightly harder to find - 8mm tall as opposed to 12
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[23:04] <Laurenceb> also 0.75mm wide pad for the RF sheild, sensible width?
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> seems so
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> is the large round thing a buzzer?
[23:06] <Laurenceb> CR1216
[23:06] <Laurenceb> buzzer lol
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> ah
[23:07] <Laurenceb> for GPS and the stm32 backup - theres a jumper to select the stm32 VBAT as well
[23:08] <Laurenceb> one of the keystone through hole holders
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> can you power the stm from it?
[23:08] <Laurenceb> this is odd - http://www.st.com/stonline/products/families/evaluation_boards/steval-mki062v2.htm mentions a LPS001DL: pressure sensor but nothing on the main ST site
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> They pull things regularly.
[23:09] <Laurenceb> no - just the Vbat supply to the stm32, powers some backup sram and RTC
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> I was wondering on pricing for the induction cooker reference kit - and found they'd dropped it.
[23:09] <Laurenceb> I wanted to see if it was any good :-/
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> When I was looking for my cooker.
[23:11] <natrium42> Laurenceb, looking good
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[23:14] <Laurenceb> I may follow freescales advice to avoid vias under mems LGA packages
[23:14] <Laurenceb> they can result in small bumps with some board fabs and the sensors end up non level with the pcb
[23:14] <natrium42> ah
[23:15] <Laurenceb> by a couple of degrees if you are unlucky
[23:18] <Laurenceb> bbl
[23:18] <natrium42> ok, will hold your slot open
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[23:37] <natrium42> is anybody going to take part in this? http://www.southgatearc.org/news/april2010/arecibo_432_moonbounce.htm
[23:38] <fsphil> sweet!
[23:38] <natrium42> :)
[23:38] <Randomskk> sounds awesome
[23:38] <Randomskk> someone should remind everyone in here on the 16th
[23:38] <Randomskk> *hint hint*
[23:38] <Randomskk> :P
[23:38] <fsphil> thanks natrium42, I'll definitely have a go at that
[23:39] Action: natrium42 needs to build a yagi
[23:39] <natrium42> np
[23:39] <Randomskk> I wonder if I can hit that
[23:39] <Randomskk> 35W out of the ic7000 on 434
[23:40] <fsphil> hmm, is the moon up over the UK at the time
[23:40] <fsphil> that'd be kinda important :)
[23:41] <Randomskk> ...true
[23:44] <junderwood> It is
[23:44] <Randomskk> at the least I could probably hear if not be heard
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[23:45] <fsphil> yea my little FT-817 ain't got much hope :)
[23:46] <fsphil> but I've got a good yagi so I'll have a listen
[23:46] <Randomskk> I haven't tried sending 35W into my yagi before, either
[23:46] <Randomskk> I don't know what its swr is like
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[23:56] <fsphil> night all, work in the morning. holiday is over. bah :)
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[00:00] --- Wed Apr 7 2010