highaltitude.log.20100331

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[00:04] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: where can I find the eagle silksceen script?
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[01:27] <edmoore_> my lecturer has just got slashdotted. coolio.
[01:28] <natrium42> Games: Hacker Will Try To Restore Linux Support On PS3
[01:28] <natrium42> ?
[01:28] <edmoore_> Computer Vision Tech Grabs Humans In Real-Time 3D
[01:29] <edmoore_> prof cipolla
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[01:29] <natrium42> ah
[01:29] <natrium42> you're taking computer vision?
[01:30] <edmoore_> actually dropped his but nvm
[01:30] <edmoore_> took his 2nd year one
[01:30] <edmoore_> but his 4th year one was a bit outside what i wanted to do
[01:31] <natrium42> coolz
[01:31] <natrium42> i should read his paper
[01:31] Action: natrium42 is doing masters in computer vision
[01:31] <edmoore_> oh - have you heard of him b4 then?
[01:32] <natrium42> not sure, name sounds familliar
[01:32] <edmoore_> roberto cipolla
[01:32] <natrium42> i only have one term worth of paper reading, though...
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[02:58] <edmoore_> finished socialising PC-Socialising ?
[03:00] <PC-Socialising> am now
[03:00] <PC-Socialising> one game of monopoly= about 2 months of friendship
[03:01] <PC-Socialising> social side topped up for another while
[03:01] <PC-Socialising> nearly drowned the car on the way back though
[03:04] <PC-Socialising> still soldering away?
[03:06] Nick change: PC-Socialising -> ProjectCirrus
[03:07] <edmoore_> just fucking soldered a fifteen fucking way d-connector the fucking mirror image of what it's meant to fucking be
[03:07] <ProjectCirrus> lol.... i nearly did that once
[03:07] <ProjectCirrus> i nearly wasted a whole lot of time doing it
[03:08] <ProjectCirrus> i think soldering fumes reduce ones IQ
[03:09] <ProjectCirrus> Anything ive ever done that is truely retarded has had a smouldering soldering iron lurking in the background somewhere
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[04:03] <ProjectCirrus> i'm going to bed!
[04:03] <ProjectCirrus> night all
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[04:05] <ProjectCirrus> all 43 of you supposedly watching this channel... i'm pretty sure most of you are asleep :)
[04:06] <analogmonster> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[04:06] <ProjectCirrus> i was right!
[04:07] <edmoore> redone d-con
[04:07] <ProjectCirrus> that was quick
[04:08] <ProjectCirrus> double the sense of satisfaction?
[04:11] <ProjectCirrus> I spent most of an evening trying to figure out why i couldn't get the Vout across a potential divider to reduce below a set value........ it was only after adding almost 4Mohms of resistance that i realised that i had basically no components in the bottom half....... meaning that i was trying to match the resistance of the Volt meter.......... which was never going to happen!
[04:12] <ProjectCirrus> that wasted SOOO much time, over something REALLY retarded
[04:12] <ProjectCirrus> good night
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[05:57] <edmoore> right home time
[05:57] <edmoore> have done enough work for today
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[08:51] <earthshine> morning
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[10:19] <russss> so I bought one of these from Hong Kong for £40. http://www.pxdz.com/english/showpro.asp?id=2322
[10:20] <russss> not sure what I'm going to use it for but it was a bargain.
[10:20] <russss> (absolutely not transmitting on PMR446 at 4 watts)
[10:20] <russss> (heaven forbid)
[10:27] <Laurenceb> hmm but FM only
[10:27] <russss> yeah
[10:27] <russss> what do you expect for £40
[10:28] <russss> apparently they're quite sensitive so you even get an advantage transmitting on PMR446 at legal power
[10:28] <russss> receiving, even.
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[10:36] <GW8RAK> Similar products also from Gibralter at http://euroradiosales.com/rs2/
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[10:45] <earthshine> any of these do SSB ?
[10:48] <russss> I think all the Puxing ones are FM only
[10:51] <earthshine> i suppose it's impossible to get a handheld that does SSB
[10:51] <SpeedEvil> no
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[10:52] <SpeedEvil> mot as common as fm tho
[10:52] <SpeedEvil> fm should work.
[10:52] <SpeedEvil> but will have much higher noise floor.
[10:53] <SpeedEvil> and will need a seperate decoder.
[11:03] <earthshine> was wondering if one would be useful to find a payload if you were close but coudln't see it, like hidden in bushes or behind something
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> you can hear the signal
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> the rtty
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> as a low clicking
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[11:09] <SpeedEvil> /buzz
[11:32] <earthshine> So I guess it might be useful to haveb one for that purpose. Even more so if you can control the receiver sensitivity.
[11:35] Action: Laurenceb has finished the autopilot board
[11:35] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/5HTov.png
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[11:37] <earthshine> looks great
[11:38] <Laurenceb> unless your trying to solder it :P
[11:38] <earthshine> Do you use an oven ?
[11:40] <earthshine> or are you going to get them fabricated and assembled ?
[11:40] <Laurenceb> nah I'm planning to build an oven
[11:40] <Laurenceb> but I have a hot air tool that will be fine for making one or two
[11:41] <earthshine> I see
[11:41] <Laurenceb> baked bean can oven
[11:41] <earthshine> You're not planning on making a load of these to sell ?
[11:41] <Laurenceb> maybe
[11:42] <Laurenceb> using an attiny44 and thermocouple to control the temperature, then elements from a toaster for heating
[11:42] <Laurenceb> the nice thing about the attinys with ADC gain is you can connect a thermocouple directly
[11:43] <Laurenceb> and use the internal temp sensor for cold junction compensation
[11:47] <earthshine> yeah
[11:47] <earthshine> is that just 2 layers?
[11:48] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:48] <earthshine> You did well to squeeze all that in
[12:41] <Laurenceb> all the componetns set on the back
[12:41] <Randomskk> SpikeUK emailed me to say I should tidy my room :(
[12:42] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/DIqlH.png thats what you see from the "front"
[12:42] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: lol
[12:42] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: why is the text mirrored from the 'front'? :P
[12:43] <Randomskk> also: I take it that thing bottom-left next to the JST battery connector is a pwoer switch, is it the sparkfun one?
[12:43] <Laurenceb> as I designed it working from the back
[12:43] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:43] <Laurenceb> as all the backs are at the back
[12:43] <Laurenceb> young man, why arent you at the front?
[12:43] <Randomskk> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8769 ?
[12:44] Action: Laurenceb sends Randomskk to the trenches
[12:45] <Laurenceb> yes that one
[12:45] <Randomskk> they are a bit bad
[12:45] <Randomskk> we are migrating away from them on all the badger boards
[12:45] <Laurenceb> it just toggles EN on the SMPS
[12:45] <Randomskk> that's quite a vital thing surely
[12:45] <Laurenceb> also it has reverse battery protection
[12:45] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:45] <Randomskk> they don't like being reflowed normally, as it kind of burns the plastic tab
[12:45] <Randomskk> they break very easily
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[12:46] <Randomskk> the legs are quite weak and far away so there's a big moment if you push up on the slider at all
[12:46] <Randomskk> so the legs readily plastically deform
[12:46] <Randomskk> and fail to fatigue failure quite quickly
[12:46] <Randomskk> epoxying them in place works but if you are not careful you epoxy the slider
[12:46] <Randomskk> sadly we haven't been able to find anything better either
[12:46] <Randomskk> well that's the same size
[12:47] <Randomskk> most others are massive
[12:47] <Randomskk> sparkfun are using the vertical ones in a lot of things now, :
[12:47] <Randomskk> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=597
[12:47] <Laurenceb> I'll hand solder everthing on that side of the board
[12:48] <Laurenceb> yeah but thats big and harder to reach from the side
[12:48] <Laurenceb> mine should be flipable with a fingernail from the side of the board
[12:48] <Randomskk> yea
[12:48] <Laurenceb> surely the holes reinforce it - I used the two holes
[12:48] <Randomskk> they don't really provide much resistance to upwards motion
[12:48] <Randomskk> it should be okay generally just worth bearing in mind to be careful to not flick it up
[12:49] <Laurenceb> I see
[12:49] <Laurenceb> hmm needs some of those plastic rivet type things
[12:49] <Laurenceb> when I get the time I'll search on farnell etc
[12:49] <Laurenceb> I bet there some that clip in place into the holes
[12:50] <Randomskk> those would be good
[12:50] <Laurenceb> is the black plastic temp resistant?
[12:50] <Laurenceb> as maybe you could melt it in with an iron
[12:51] <Laurenceb> bah only 0.7mm long that sucks
[12:51] <Laurenceb> I see the issue
[12:52] <Laurenceb> seeedstuido is 0.5mm htick pcb right?
[12:52] <Randomskk> can't remember off the top of my head, think it's a bit thicker though
[12:52] <Laurenceb> even worse :(
[12:53] <Laurenceb> hmm need to search around, all it takes is something like the clips used on dashboards
[12:54] <Randomskk> unfortunately that takes more space though
[12:54] <Laurenceb> http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/plastic-rivet-29616.jpg
[12:55] <Laurenceb> not necessarily
[12:55] <Laurenceb> if the two plastic tabs where like those rivet designs
[12:56] <Laurenceb> hmf someones got to have made a switch like that
[12:56] <Randomskk> let me know if you find anything
[12:58] <Laurenceb> yeah maybe #electronics can help
[13:05] <Laurenceb> http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/plastic-rivet-29616.jpg
[13:05] <Laurenceb> oops
[13:05] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/tyco-electronics/se1egsmt/switch-slide-spdt-smd/dp/7692870
[13:05] <Laurenceb> theres the oned with pads at the front
[13:06] <Randomskk> that would probably work much better
[13:06] <Randomskk> unfortunately no longer stocked :P
[13:07] <Laurenceb> yeah lol
[13:07] <Laurenceb> but also potentially holes make it very strong
[13:07] <Laurenceb> much better than those little pads
[13:07] <Laurenceb> just needs to be fixed in properly
[13:08] Action: Laurenceb drowns in a sea of different switches on farnell
[13:09] <Randomskk> there are so many
[13:13] <Laurenceb> "joyswtich" wtf
[13:13] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/joyswitch
[13:13] <Laurenceb> set controls to joy
[13:14] <Randomskk> haha nice
[13:15] <Laurenceb> that SFE switch is only rated for 6V
[13:15] <Laurenceb> cant see what could go wrong at a bit higher voltage
[13:19] <Laurenceb> guess its epoxy time
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[13:31] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[17:00] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[17:28] <earthshine> afternoon
[17:29] <sbasuita> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfO7lXM9_hU
[17:30] <earthshine> hmm someone is trying to do a portscan on me
[17:31] <sbasuita> earthshine, quick, boot up the honeypot ;)
[17:31] <Lunar_Lander> shit!
[17:31] <earthshine> there are several lines of defence he would have to get through
[17:32] <Randomskk> oh no! they are penetrating the outer perimeter firewall!
[17:32] <Randomskk> quick, activate the defence sentry towers!
[17:32] <sbasuita> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ
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[17:32] <Randomskk> tee hee
[17:33] <Randomskk> but also what the hell, is youtube suddenly a very different theme for everyone
[17:34] <Randomskk> it has broken feyntube
[17:34] <Randomskk> D:
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[17:35] <sbasuita> Randomskk, i think they're randomly trialing the theme
[17:35] <Randomskk> aww
[17:36] <Randomskk> after just getting feynmantube working on chrome
[17:37] <Lunar_Lander> feynmantube?
[17:37] <Lunar_Lander> what is that?
[17:37] <Lunar_Lander> a video collection of Feynman?
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[17:37] <Randomskk> no
[17:37] <earthshine> back
[17:37] <Randomskk> it's actually 'feyntube'
[17:38] <Randomskk> it replaces all youtube comments with quotes from feynman
[17:38] <Randomskk> nothing of value is lost
[17:38] <Lunar_Lander> ohhhh
[17:38] <Lunar_Lander> I just had the hope that somebody put up all the Feynman films
[17:39] <Lunar_Lander> like Microsoft Research did with his Messenger Lectures
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[17:56] <earthshi1e> back
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[18:00] <earthshine> weird
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[18:00] <edmoore> home!
[18:01] <Randomskk> yay
[18:01] <Randomskk> half way through the vacation you get home? :P
[18:02] <edmoore> my vacation starts today
[18:02] <Randomskk> how's hobble going?
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[18:03] <edmoore> my vacation starts today
[18:03] <Randomskk> hehe
[18:09] <natrium42> edmoore is finally going to spend more time with us
[18:09] <edmoore> n, i'm going to france at 6am tomorrow
[18:11] <natrium42> not to france! :(
[18:12] <Lunar_Lander> xD!
[18:12] <edmoore> yes, to france
[18:13] <natrium42> edmoore, you know about french women, rite?
[18:13] <natrium42> they don'
[18:13] <natrium42> t shave their armpits
[18:14] <edmoore> i am going to france with my english woman. so that should be fine.
[18:14] <natrium42> ah, ok
[18:15] <Lunar_Lander> I got one for you
[18:15] <Lunar_Lander> I ran a prediction for a 24h flight from my Uni
[18:15] <Lunar_Lander> it'll go right across the North of Minsk and it'll come down behind Moscow
[18:15] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:16] <edmoore> not ideal
[18:16] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:16] <Lunar_Lander> right through the channel of danger
[18:17] <natrium42> just do a fast ascent / fast descent profile
[18:17] <Lunar_Lander> now I gave it 5 m/s for ascent and descent
[18:18] <Lunar_Lander> let's see what comes out :)
[18:18] <edmoore> which predictor are you using?
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> the CU Spaceflight onwe
[18:19] <Lunar_Lander> *one
[18:19] <edmoore> don't bother with that one
[18:19] <edmoore> it's crap, they don't know what they're doing
[18:19] <natrium42> edmoore?
[18:19] <natrium42> are you in france already?
[18:20] <Lunar_Lander> can you give me alternatives?
[18:20] <edmoore> i am still in england
[18:20] <edmoore> nah, the cusf one is fine, i am just being silly
[18:20] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[18:21] <edmoore> i am part of cusf afterall!
[18:21] <natrium42> edmoore, but rich's stuff is fine, rite?
[18:21] <edmoore> natrium42: oh god yeah
[18:21] <natrium42> :)
[18:21] <natrium42> excellent
[18:24] <Lunar_Lander> nope, we still end up in Russia
[18:24] <Lunar_Lander> half day is even worst, we land in Belarus
[18:25] <Lunar_Lander> *worse
[18:25] <natrium42> uh oh, belarus
[18:27] <natrium42> lukashenko'd
[18:27] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[18:28] <ProjectCirrus> do any of you ever have any bother with intererence from your gps coming through on radio?
[18:29] <ProjectCirrus> i just need to carefully check the circuit.... the frequency coming out of my ntx2 just changed and is now really noisy
[18:30] <Randomskk> I still have a visa for belarus
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[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[18:33] <Lunar_Lander> hi jcoxon
[18:34] <jcoxon> hey
[18:36] <earthshine> hi jcoxon
[18:38] <jcoxon> hey earthshine
[18:38] <Lunar_Lander> YAY
[18:39] <Lunar_Lander> April 4 is a good day
[18:39] <Lunar_Lander> Germany, northern Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, landing in north-western russia
[18:39] <Lunar_Lander> no Belarus :)
[18:40] <jcoxon> hehe
[18:40] <edmoore> hi jcoxon
[18:40] <jcoxon> Lunar_Lander, not sure how happy russia would be
[18:40] <jcoxon> hey ed
[18:40] <Lunar_Lander> I know
[18:41] <Lunar_Lander> since last night I dream of a PE balloon with a Soyuz Descent Module with a guy in it below
[18:41] <natrium42> Lunar_Lander, just don't land on the red square
[18:42] <natrium42> you know, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust
[18:42] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I know him :)
[18:44] <natrium42> he's a legend
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> of course
[18:50] <Lunar_Lander> and he deserved it
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[19:11] <jcoxon> bbl
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[19:29] Nick change: rharrison_ -> rjharrison
[19:30] <rjharrison> evening all
[19:30] <rjharrison> Having a nice quiet day today
[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> hi rjharrison
[19:30] <rjharrison> Hi Lunar_Lander
[19:30] <rjharrison> All you people in Ireland I gather you had some weather last night
[19:31] <rjharrison> Hey JamesLeeds are you in leeds?
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[19:51] <JamesLeeds> rjharrison: Ye
[19:51] <JamesLeeds> Leeds UK
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[20:21] <DanielRichman> ping rjharrison
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[20:39] jcoxon (~jcoxon@92.40.36.168.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[20:39] <jcoxon> hey rjharrison you called earlier, how can i help?
[20:44] <jcoxon> bbl
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[20:58] <ProjectCirrus> yeah rjharrison we had enough weather for quite a while
[20:58] <ProjectCirrus> though fsphil prob got it worse snow wise
[20:58] <ProjectCirrus> we mostly had flooding
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> snow?
[20:58] <Lunar_Lander> no more snow again!
[20:58] <ProjectCirrus> glenshane pass had to have 300 odd people rescued
[20:59] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[20:59] <ProjectCirrus> 4ft in a couple of hours
[20:59] <sbasuita> <3 snow
[20:59] <fsphil> very heavy snow here, dodgy power supply
[20:59] <fsphil> but the wind did the most damage
[20:59] <JamesLeeds> Cant see any snow locally here, but theres some about 20miles west I can see
[20:59] <JamesLeeds> on the hilltops
[21:01] <ProjectCirrus> why is my opto isolater not giving as good a signal as a ptm switch? should they not be the same
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> ptm:
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> ?
[21:15] <DanielRichman> push to make?
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> optoisolators - phototransistor ones - are just really low gain transistors
[21:15] <SpeedEvil> with a gain of about 1-10.
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> bipolar transistors that is
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[21:20] <fsphil> preliminary version of rtty/jpeg receiver is up here: http://github.com/fsphil/dl-fldigi
[21:20] <fsphil> see associated wiki page for link to a sample wav file
[21:22] <Randomskk> sweet work
[21:23] <DanielRichman> Nice! now the http://github.com/jamescoxon/dl-fldigi/network looks even more funky
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> neet.
[21:23] <fsphil> lol
[21:23] <fsphil> saw that
[21:24] <fsphil> brb
[21:24] <DanielRichman> fsphil, .wav.bz2? should use FLAC or OGG :P
[21:24] <DanielRichman> fsphil, but nice work!
[21:24] Action: DanielRichman is compelled to try it
[21:25] <edmoore> i don't think actually compession in that sense is at all sensible
[21:26] <Randomskk> making now
[21:27] <Randomskk> D: error
[21:28] <DanielRichman> I'm building now
[21:28] <DanielRichman> but with my latest comments in to (it merged fine, btw)
[21:28] <DanielRichman> though if it didn't build for you Randomskk I doubt it will for me :P
[21:28] <DanielRichman> Ok here we go, make has begun
[21:29] <Randomskk> it got a lot further after I autoreconf'd it
[21:29] <Randomskk> but still errors
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[21:29] <DanielRichman> so far so good
[21:29] <DanielRichman> oh there we go
[21:29] <DanielRichman> It's ugly
[21:29] <DanielRichman> fsphil, you sure this is the latest commit
[21:29] <Randomskk> I'm missing Fl_Double_Window.h
[21:29] <DanielRichman> ssdv/ssdv_rx.cxx:5:33: error: FL/Fl_Double_Window.h: No such file or directory
[21:29] <Randomskk> yea
[21:29] <Randomskk> all following errors appear to derive
[21:29] <DanielRichman> daniel@desktop:repo$ locate Double_Window
[21:29] <DanielRichman> /usr/include/FL/Fl_Double_Window.H
[21:30] <DanielRichman> it's there somewhere
[21:30] <DanielRichman> ah, capital H
[21:30] <DanielRichman> of course, fsphil, are you on windows?
[21:30] <Randomskk> why is it a capital H
[21:30] <DanielRichman> gcc interprets it a different way iirc
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[21:30] <DanielRichman> file.H
[21:30] <DanielRichman> C++ header file to be turned into a precompiled header.
[21:30] <DanielRichman> as opposed to
[21:30] <DanielRichman> file.h
[21:30] <DanielRichman> C, C++, Objective-C or Objective-C++ header file to be turned into
[21:30] <DanielRichman> a precompiled header.
[21:31] <Randomskk> curious
[21:31] <Randomskk> notably though the other FL includes are .H
[21:31] <earthshine> evening
[21:32] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, do you know C++?
[21:32] <DanielRichman> this line is causing trouble:
[21:32] <DanielRichman> class ssdv_rx : public Fl_Double_Window
[21:32] <Randomskk> it makes fine for me when I swap that h for H
[21:32] <DanielRichman> because it's a c++ header, it then looks for Fl_Double_Window.h
[21:32] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, what h?
[21:32] <Randomskk> Fl_Double_Window.h
[21:32] <DanielRichman> I had to add #include <FL/Fl_Double_Window.H>
[21:32] <DanielRichman> to the top of the file
[21:32] <Randomskk> don't add it yourself
[21:32] <Randomskk> change existing .h to .H
[21:32] <DanielRichman> Oh in the cxx file
[21:32] <Lunar_Lander> programming again :P?
[21:33] <DanielRichman> we has successful compilation
[21:33] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
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[21:36] <DanielRichman> AAAAAAAH!
[21:36] <DanielRichman> Segfault!
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> oh
[21:37] <Randomskk> mine just crashed too
[21:37] <DanielRichman> I've recompiled with -g
[21:37] <fsphil> hmm.. linux here, no problems
[21:37] <fsphil> 64-bit
[21:37] <Randomskk> fsphil: 64bit linux here too
[21:37] <Randomskk> it runs
[21:38] <Randomskk> but seems to crash during file playback
[21:38] <DanielRichman> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
[21:38] <Randomskk> fsphil: 8bit ascii?
[21:38] <fsphil> yea
[21:38] <DanielRichman> #0 _IO_fwrite (buf=0x17db1cb, size=1, count=218, fp=0x0) at iofwrite.c:43
[21:38] <DanielRichman> #1 0x00000000005203b2 in ssdv_rx::put_byte
[21:39] <DanielRichman> I didn't bother removing -O2 so all the good infoz are optimised out (sorry) :P
[21:39] <fsphil> 8-bit, no parity, 850 shift, 1.5 stop bits
[21:39] <fsphil> hmm
[21:39] <Randomskk> I see a lot of junk data being decoded
[21:39] <Randomskk> a massive train of 'd'
[21:40] <Randomskk> and then it crashes
[21:40] <DanielRichman> I'll try with stop bits 1.5 (had 1 when it crashed)
[21:40] <Randomskk> the ssdv window doesn't show anything
[21:40] <DanielRichman> nope it still segfaults
[21:41] <Randomskk> is there a simple way to have it make with -g and without optimisation
[21:41] <fsphil> can you comment out line 292 in ssdv_rx.cxx, render_image() ?
[21:42] <fsphil> won't render the image, crash likely in there somewhere
[21:42] <DanielRichman> fsphil, https://gist.github.com/eb85d0dddc24c4208615
[21:42] <DanielRichman> oh of course!!!
[21:42] <DanielRichman> fsphil, you numpty :D
[21:42] <DanielRichman> FILE *f = fopen("/home/phil/packets.data", "ab");
[21:42] <DanielRichman> fwrite(&b[6], 1, PAYLOAD_SIZE, f);
[21:43] <fsphil> aaarh!
[21:43] <Randomskk> haha nice
[21:43] <fsphil> *waves hand* you didn't see that .. it's not there
[21:43] <Randomskk> yea I was about to find that
[21:43] <Randomskk> gdb was all
[21:43] <Randomskk> segfault in fwrite
[21:45] <fsphil> fixed in master *shame*
[21:46] <fsphil> now I'm not a C++ programmer, so there's probably odd stuff in there
[21:46] <Randomskk> fsphil: have you fixed the h/H thing
[21:46] <Randomskk> ssdv_rx.cxx ln5
[21:46] <Randomskk> FL/Fl_Double_Window.h
[21:46] <Randomskk> should be
[21:46] <Randomskk> FL/Fl_Double_Window.H
[21:47] <fsphil> just did
[21:47] <DanielRichman> holy cow, it's decoding!
[21:47] <fsphil> thanks
[21:47] <fsphil> btw, horrible image
[21:47] <fsphil> :p
[21:47] <fsphil> I didn't have time to get a beautiful model
[21:48] <fsphil> it's on the larger side too, so it'll take a while to decode
[21:48] <Randomskk> making latest fetched code
[21:50] <Randomskk> aha
[21:50] <Randomskk> it's picked something up
[21:50] <Randomskk> no image yet
[21:50] <Randomskk> aww, so it doesn't support partial decoding?
[21:50] <fsphil> takes at least 3 blocks to start decoding
[21:50] <Randomskk> oh okay
[21:50] <Randomskk> there we go!
[21:50] <Randomskk> yay
[21:50] <SpeedEvil> interlaced jpeg?
[21:50] <fsphil> could probably save space my not transmitting the huffman tables every time -- I don't think they change
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> I mean progressibe
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> huffman tables are per-image
[21:51] <SpeedEvil> they are the result of compressing the dct's
[21:51] <Randomskk> does it save out the jpg?
[21:51] <fsphil> not always
[21:52] <fsphil> not yet Randomskk
[21:52] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[21:52] <fsphil> the jpeg from the camera isn't progressive
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> ah
[21:52] <fsphil> normal top to bottom
[21:52] <Randomskk> might be worth encoding resolution into the thing too?
[21:52] <DanielRichman> fldigi needs a fast forward button
[21:52] <Randomskk> haha
[21:52] <fsphil> lol
[21:53] <fsphil> the resolution is stored in the jpeg header
[21:53] <Randomskk> ah okay
[21:53] <fsphil> though for this I've fixed it to 320x240
[21:53] <fsphil> it won't decode anything else
[21:53] <Randomskk> yea
[21:53] <Randomskk> but potentially you could extract resolution from the header?
[21:53] <Randomskk> this would be very exciting to get while tracking a balloon
[21:53] <fsphil> yep
[21:53] <Randomskk> can't wait to see this on a flight
[21:53] <fsphil> me too!
[21:54] <Randomskk> much more exciting for spectators too
[21:54] <fsphil> I've got more work to do on the TX side yet
[21:54] <Randomskk> sitting in the middle of the lawn with a big antenna and radio usually draws a few people as they walk past
[21:54] <earthshine> What are you doing with this code BTW ?
[21:54] <Randomskk> but $$PAYLOAD,SOME_CRAZY_NUMBERS*AAAA isn't as interesting as actual pictures live from space
[21:55] <DanielRichman> Is there any remote way that the NTX2 could do PSK?
[21:55] <fsphil> live(ish) images from a balloon, earthshine
[21:55] <earthshine> ahh
[21:55] <edmoore> DanielRichman: no
[21:55] <fsphil> live as in one every few minutes
[21:55] <DanielRichman> edmoore, so in order to put PSK on a balloon we'd have to roll our own module and get it licensed :X?
[21:55] <Randomskk> well you'd certainly have to roll your own model
[21:55] <edmoore> how long do you think it would take to get a 320 x 240 image down?
[21:55] <edmoore> DanielRichman: yes
[21:56] <DanielRichman> sounds like a challenge.
[21:56] <fsphil> edmoore, the largest image is 10k - about 5 minutes
[21:56] <Randomskk> there are schematics for a psk modulator out there
[21:56] <edmoore> or find one that does psk off the shefl
[21:56] <Randomskk> some using just a couple of parts
[21:56] <fsphil> I expect the typical image to be 5k ish
[21:56] <edmoore> fsphil: cool
[21:56] <fsphil> so 2.5 - 3 minutes
[21:56] <DanielRichman> PSK is very low bandwidth. Could we in theory, pack many PSK paralell signals into the 434.075 band, forexample?
[21:56] <edmoore> that's a bit slower than when last we tried sending pics, but the obvious advantage of not being quite so noisy :)
[21:56] <Randomskk> fsphil: how do you store the data? or does the camera send it really really slowly
[21:56] <fsphil> Is there such as thing as a SSB module, like the NTX2?
[21:56] <fsphil> Randomskk, camera sends it in blocks
[21:57] <edmoore> fsphil: if there is we've not found it yet
[21:57] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: you could pack many parallel rtty signals in too
[21:57] <edmoore> there is little demand for such a thing in the lincense-exempt space
[21:57] <Randomskk> PSK is also low data rate
[21:57] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, that is true
[21:57] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, I thought that PSK was meant to be much more noise tolerant than RTTY so we can up the baudrate?
[21:57] <DanielRichman> what about QPSK?
[21:58] <Randomskk> QPSK is basically normal PSK, as opposed to BPSK
[21:58] <Randomskk> it is more noise tolerant
[21:58] <edmoore> lol, don't write that in an exam :p
[21:58] <Randomskk> but I'm not sure that directly means we can up the baud rate - we could probably up the baud rate on the rtty just as easily
[21:58] <Randomskk> well okay
[21:58] <Randomskk> both are a type of PSK
[21:59] <Randomskk> b and q are the two most common and q tends to be even more common
[21:59] <DanielRichman> I see
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[21:59] <DanielRichman> We could have a ntx2 to olivia or something with many FSKs?
[22:00] <DanielRichman> I'm just thinking about how to pack the largest data rate onto a balloon
[22:00] <Randomskk> olivia or mfsk should be possible
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[22:00] <fsphil> would make better use of the NTX2 bandwidth
[22:01] <DanielRichman> hmm
[22:01] <edmoore> psk is more efficient than fsk *for a given bandwidth*, however fsk offers better bit error performance for a given SNR. So you're not really bothered about the bandwidth in our application (so long as it's less than the 3khz your radio can output) so fsk is your better option
[22:02] <edmoore> especially MFSK, which is a sort of more logical version of several parallel FSKs
[22:02] <DanielRichman> Right. Olivia comes with built in FEC doesn't it?
[22:02] <edmoore> i don't know. But I would recommnt DominoEX instead nayway
[22:02] <edmoore> if you want MFSK
[22:02] <edmoore> and that certainly has an option for FEC
[22:03] <DanielRichman> Has MFSK been done yet on #ha?
[22:03] <Randomskk> someone has flown domino iirc
[22:03] <edmoore> we programmed badger1 to do dominoex
[22:03] <edmoore> but then it went into the sea
[22:03] <DanielRichman> Did it work?
[22:04] <edmoore> not really, but specifically because the 10bit dac we had didn't have the resolution to do it properly
[22:05] <edmoore> the tone spacing needs a pretty good tolerance
[22:05] <DanielRichman> OK
[22:06] <edmoore> bill brown has however flown in lots and swars by it over rtty and psk31
[22:07] <DanielRichman> I forget his callsign/website
[22:07] <fsphil> regardless of any technical benefit, dominoex does sound cool
[22:07] <edmoore> wb8elk
[22:08] <Randomskk> fsphil: that is my main consideration for most of these
[22:08] <Randomskk> olivia does also sound cool though; I am conflicted
[22:08] <DanielRichman> Back to a previous point; if one did roll a new model, how easy is it to get it licensed for use in the air?
[22:09] <Randomskk> not-worth-it difficult
[22:09] <edmoore> it's expensive
[22:09] <edmoore> you have to pay an approved technician to do quite thorough emc compliance tests
[22:10] <Randomskk> edmoore: though actually I was looking into that, are we entirely sure you have to pay someone to do the tests?
[22:10] <edmoore> and you'd have to provide several units, i think so might be destructively tested too
[22:10] <DanielRichman> urgh. That's nasty
[22:10] <Randomskk> from what I gathered when I read it, it's like the CE mark, which is that you self-certify but also testing houses exist that will certify it for you and so take on responsibility in case it turns out to not comply
[22:11] <edmoore> http://www.ce-marking.org/how-obtain.html
[22:11] <edmoore> http://www.ce-marking.org/directive-995ec-Radio-Telecommunications-Equipment.html
[22:11] <edmoore> be my guest to wade through :p
[22:11] <DanielRichman> So you can't just ask OFCOM nicely?
[22:11] <Randomskk> not to do with ofcom
[22:11] <DanielRichman> for a single flight, not for sale, etc?
[22:11] <edmoore> almost certainly not.
[22:12] <Randomskk> you could just /do/ it nicely
[22:12] <Randomskk> and hope no one complains
[22:12] <Randomskk> but it'd be illegal.
[22:12] <DanielRichman> So the law says that anything that flies has to have a CE mark?
[22:12] <Randomskk> flying has nothing to do with it
[22:12] <DanielRichman> ok. Anything that transmits
[22:12] <Randomskk> it's that it's a radio transmitter in the license-excempt spectrum
[22:12] <edmoore> the law says you can't fly anything unless it is on IR2030, and to be on there it'd have to be approved
[22:14] <DanielRichman> Radio transmitters that fly must be in license exempt spectrum; license exempt spectrum transmitters must be CE marked. Does ofcom have control over the first part of that statement? ie. could one create a transmitter on a license requiring part of the spectrum and get a NoV(?) and fly it?
[22:14] <edmoore> you could get it NoV'd yes
[22:14] <edmoore> but I can predict for you right now what the answer to your NoV application is, if you'd like
[22:14] <DanielRichman> haha
[22:15] <edmoore> it might save you the trouble of actually doing it
[22:15] <Randomskk> with quite a high confidence value too I imagine
[22:15] <Randomskk> be easier to get a home made module approxed I suspect
[22:15] <edmoore> I've taken the NoV option about as far as it could go with Carlos Eavis last year
[22:15] <Randomskk> we need to recruit some lawyers into cusf
[22:15] <DanielRichman> I was about to ask whether the CE guys or the OFCOM guys are nicer, but OK
[22:15] <Randomskk> get them to wade through this shit
[22:15] <edmoore> and was looking at flying APRS too
[22:16] <DanielRichman> Ok. While I'm flinging ideas, how about putting two NTX2s on board, have them transmit different frequencies on the same band simultaneously to get 2 parallel transmissions?
[22:17] <SpeedEvil_> DanielRichman, been done. one as a morse beacon
[22:18] <DanielRichman> both on 434.075? OK
[22:18] <edmoore> no
[22:18] <earthshine> he means to double the transmission rate
[22:18] <DanielRichman> Yeah, sorry
[22:18] <edmoore> you could do that though, provided you kept the two carriers from colliding
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[22:19] <DanielRichman> Ok, cool
[22:19] Action: DanielRichman adds it to the list of stuff to do on alien2
[22:20] <fsphil> if it doesn't work you could loose all telemetry
[22:20] <DanielRichman> I have a backup plan
[22:20] <fsphil> excellent
[22:20] <edmoore> i think there'd be a lot of mileage to writing a better decoder for fsk. matched filters aren't optimal by any stretch. you could buy some more dBs SNR there
[22:21] <DanielRichman> Someone was writing their own decoder a while ago, was it you?
[22:21] <edmoore> sort of. it was quite theoretical. i want to come back to it after exams
[22:22] <DanielRichman> OK
[22:22] <edmoore> it might not actually work as a practical thing.
[22:23] <DanielRichman> I see
[22:23] <DanielRichman> What is the potential problem?
[22:23] <edmoore> making it run real time
[22:24] <edmoore> it's a maths problem
[22:24] <DanielRichman> CPU usage?
[22:24] <DanielRichman> or otherwise; how far from real time does it have to run?
[22:24] <edmoore> no i mean a fundamental problem with maths
[22:25] <DanielRichman> I hate those problems.
[22:25] <DanielRichman> How far ahead of real time does it have to run? 1 second lag? or worse? or wrong type of not-real-time?
[22:26] <edmoore> from a bayesian point of view, you want to find the most probable location of frequency jumps in a given data set. if that set is coming in live it breaks the maths. there are heuristic bodges though, like just doing the processing in batches in near real time. but the mathematician in me doesn't like that and doesn't want to give up yet
[22:26] <DanielRichman> You could output a "most likely" result and then refine it as more data comes in.
[22:26] <Randomskk> could you run it over each packet, using the long tones at either side to deliminate?
[22:27] <DanielRichman> or run it 2 bits behind real time; at 50bps that's nothing
[22:27] <Randomskk> or even over the entire packet so far, taking the current moment in time to be the end of the packet, and keep running it throughout packet reception
[22:27] <SpeedEvil_> can't you just use a simple clock locker stage, then just compare energy in bit bins?
[22:27] <edmoore> all of those fall under "heuristic bodges"
[22:27] <SpeedEvil_> ah
[22:28] <Randomskk> true I guess
[22:28] <edmoore> SpeedEvil_: that's basically a matched filter. the problem is that locking your clock is really hard
[22:29] <edmoore> but i think you can make a sequential changepoint detector in the same way you can make a particle filter from MCMC. Just... I'm not quite there with my maths yet. needs a few nights thrown at it
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[22:30] <edmoore> but anyway, in matlab the thing i wrote could reliably find the jumps in the signal with -3dB SNR, which was pleasing
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[22:30] <edmoore> so this lts you start cranking up rtty to say 600baud
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[22:30] <DanielRichman> edmoore, what are (?) you reading at Uni?
[22:30] <edmoore> then you need some decent FEC
[22:31] <edmoore> and perhaps 1.2kbps is within reach with the same hardware we have now
[22:31] <DanielRichman> Wow.
[22:31] <edmoore> DanielRichman: signal processing
[22:31] <DanielRichman> OK
[22:31] <Randomskk> edmoore: information engineering, broadly speaking?
[22:32] <edmoore> this bayesian stuff also completely twats you computationally. it will use an entire cpu core.
[22:32] <edmoore> Randomskk: yep. I'm in Div F - information engineering
[22:32] <edmoore> a mix of sig proc and control modules
[22:32] Nick change: SpeedEvil_ -> SpeedEvil
[22:32] <DanielRichman> dl-client evolves into dl-botnet! upload auto samples; cluster computes!
[22:32] <DanielRichman> edmoore, is that postgraduate?
[22:32] <DanielRichman> **audio
[22:32] <edmoore> I'm still an undergrad
[22:32] <edmoore> although a 4th year one
[22:33] <DanielRichman> was signal processing the full 4 years? or did you start on something else?
[22:33] <edmoore> so it's a masters, but we still count as undergrads as it's a 4 year course
[22:33] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: at which point they become mystical beings who occasionally materialise outside their lab
[22:33] <edmoore> DanielRichman: at cambridge everyone does the first two years together
[22:33] <edmoore> all engineers
[22:33] <edmoore> then you specialise
[22:34] <DanielRichman> ahh, I see
[22:34] <edmoore> so i did two years of materials science, dynamics, thermodynamics, structural mechanics and so on
[22:34] <edmoore> before i specialised in 3rd and 4th year. it can seem crappy at the time but very useful in hindsight
[22:36] jcoxon (~jcoxon@92.40.233.162.sub.mbb.three.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[22:36] <jcoxon> evening
[22:36] <jcoxon> hey DanielRichman will merge your code now
[22:36] <DanielRichman> My A level choices leave me open to choose any Engineering or Maths based university choice; and it's a while away; but it's interesting to look at all the options out there
[22:36] <jcoxon> oooooooooo PBH-10 tomorrow at 9pm
[22:36] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, cool. fsphil has pushed an interesting branch
[22:36] <jcoxon> jpeg?
[22:36] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: what're you going for?
[22:36] <DanielRichman> mmm
[22:37] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, I'm torn. Unless someone tells me it's a bad idea.... Maths?
[22:37] <jcoxon> does it work?
[22:37] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, yeah. He's posted a sample wav too
[22:37] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: I mean, what A-levels
[22:37] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, oh right :P
[22:37] <jcoxon> will have a play at some point
[22:37] <Randomskk> (p.s. maths is a bad idea)
[22:37] <edmoore> DanielRichman: maths is hard work.
[22:37] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, (Maths, Further Maths) Physics Chemistry German
[22:37] <jcoxon> fsphil, how are you dealing with the jpeg on your atmega?
[22:37] <DanielRichman> edmoore, I see
[22:38] <Randomskk> sounds like a good line up
[22:38] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jcoxon' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[22:38] <DanielRichman> first two being in one timetable block
[22:38] <Randomskk> also leaves you open to the sciences if you wanted
[22:38] <DanielRichman> exactly
[22:38] <Randomskk> jcoxon: the camera module outputs jpeg on serial
[22:38] <jcoxon> Randomskk, more the wondering how difficult it would be to do sstv
[22:39] <sbasuita> on a related note... i bet there are some very good contacts branching from here that could help get some work experience in scientific research?
[22:39] <Randomskk> a bit of a pain to decode jpeg on the atmega I suspect
[22:39] <DanielRichman> JPEG decoders can't be too heavy?
[22:39] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, :D
[22:39] <sbasuita> seriously guys, i'd be very interested
[22:39] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jcoxon!jcoxon@92.40.233.162.sub.mbb.three.co.uk: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk, wiki.ukhas.org.uk, PBH-10 ZP Launch 1/4/10 9pm
[22:39] <Randomskk> DanielRichman, sbasuita, did you guys have anything to do with the SSTL competition a while back?
[22:39] <DanielRichman> Context: School "Hai we heard you thought you'd be doing work experience in Year 12 febuarary. We've decided to change our options! We'll no longer help you, go do it sometime this summer"
[22:40] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jcoxon!jcoxon@92.40.233.162.sub.mbb.three.co.uk: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk, wiki.ukhas.org.uk, PBH-10 ZP Launch 1/4/10 9pm www.projectbluehorizon.com
[22:40] <Randomskk> work experience while at school was mostly useless, imo
[22:40] <sbasuita> Randomskk, never heard of sstl
[22:40] <Randomskk> though what I did was go to a web design company in london and sit around and eat food and write a lot of php and css and html
[22:40] <Randomskk> so it was fun
[22:40] <Randomskk> just pointless
[22:40] <jcoxon> i did cool work experience :-p
[22:41] <Randomskk> later work experience was at surrey university where I did computer vision
[22:41] <Randomskk> much more exciting
[22:41] <Randomskk> though that basically consisted of driving an rc car around the place with a lot of sensors I'd attached
[22:41] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, :o?
[22:41] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, i'm a medic :-)
[22:42] <Randomskk> so does anyone here know about ukhas and the sstl competition?
[22:42] <jcoxon> yeah i do
[22:42] <DanielRichman> Ah. One of my friends is, besides trying to get work experience in a dentists, trying to get work experience somewhere to do with eye surgery (!?)
[22:42] <jcoxon> urgh dentists
[22:42] <Randomskk> jcoxon: who was doing that?
[22:43] <jcoxon> guy called mc_
[22:43] <jcoxon> not sure what ever materialised from it
[22:43] <jcoxon> he used to make a few payloads for launch
[22:43] <jcoxon> slightly borrowed the 'ukhas' name
[22:43] <Randomskk> I was under the impression it involved school kids or such
[22:44] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:44] <edmoore> yeah, ukhas were interested to find that we were entering a competition, I remember
[22:44] <jcoxon> he was supervising
[22:44] <Randomskk> part of a school or such?
[22:45] <jcoxon> yeah
[22:45] <Randomskk> wonder why they didn't use the school's name
[22:47] <fsphil> back, sorry -- camera handles jpeg encoding, atmega just packages and transmits it
[22:47] <fsphil> jpeg wouldn't be my format of choice, it's not very tolerant to errors
[22:47] <edmoore> it's a very interesting systems problem
[22:48] <edmoore> in terms of where you add redundancy and where you do compression
[22:48] <edmoore> from the cmos camera sensor to the soundcard modem
[22:48] <edmoore> i will stop now before i risk sounding like an academic who doesn't actually solve any problems
[22:48] <edmoore> but yeah. interesting.
[22:49] <fsphil> yea
[22:50] <jcoxon> fsphil, sstv?
[22:50] <fsphil> jpeg over rtty, nicknamed ssdv
[22:51] <DanielRichman> I suppose it'd be a bit backwards to decode the JPEG then repackage it in a form more tolerant to errors
[22:51] <Randomskk> can't that camera be told to output raw rgb?
[22:51] <DanielRichman> It'd be interesting if you could come up with a format that takes advantage of the fact that the JPEG compressor has done some analysis of the image, yet is more tolerant
[22:51] <fsphil> it can, but the atmega isn't beefy enough to do much with it
[22:52] <fsphil> not enough memory
[22:52] <Randomskk> yea
[22:52] <Randomskk> memory was the problem I ran into
[22:52] Action: Randomskk was playing with one of the cameras that just send rgb
[22:52] <Randomskk> even at 96x64 the image takes up twice the total system ram or whatever
[22:52] <Randomskk> desperately need external ram at that point
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[22:53] <edmoore> DanielRichman: i think there's actually not much you would ask the jpeg algorithm to do differently
[22:53] <DanielRichman> fsphil, so is the JPEG small enough to go in ram or can you ask the camera to stream it slowly?
[22:54] <edmoore> if you just treat its output as a pseudorandom bitstream (*assumption alert*) then you just use conventional FEC techniques to transmit it
[22:54] <fsphil> DanielRichman, The camera divides it into smaller blocks
[22:54] <DanielRichman> What is it that makes JPEG so fault intolerant? Is there some way to repackage it so that noise translates into a noiser picture? or will it just break
[22:54] <fsphil> but for raw data it just sends it all in one go
[22:55] <edmoore> it's not inherently fault tolerant
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman, it's compressed.
[22:55] <DanielRichman> Fair enough
[22:55] <DanielRichman> fsphil, so can't you have the atmega decode the jpeg blocks one at a time to make it more manageable
[22:55] <DanielRichman> then do whatever you want with it
[22:55] <SpeedEvil> DanielRichman, compression means inherently that errors have more impact.
[22:56] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, but I was under the impression here that just one error in JPEG rather than meaning more impact, means no image at all
[22:56] <fsphil> possibly could decode each macro block (8x8) but I don't think much could be done with it
[22:56] <SpeedEvil> total loss is more than a dark pixel
[22:56] <edmoore> what jpeg does is take advantage of the fact the most images have most of their energy at low frequencies, and so it really just does an energy compression and rejects the high frequency stuff (that uses data but that the human eye doesn't need) and then it take a look at the energy-compacted image and assigns at a huffman code to make it as small as possible.
[22:57] <edmoore> but you can treat all of the above as a black box
[22:57] <edmoore> of random 1s and 0s
[22:57] <fsphil> jpeg doesn't recover from errors very well, so a bad block in the middle will probably mess up half the image, even if the rest of the data is fine
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> huffman codes are very fragile.
[22:57] <edmoore> and then use FEC to add redundancy to your black box, which is entirely agnostic about what it is you are actually sending
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> nearly all compression in the face of errors acts a bit like encryption
[22:58] <DanielRichman> So going on a fragile interpretation of what ed just said, could we go back a step and do the "reject the high frequency stuff" only, before doing the "fragile huffman" stage?
[22:59] <edmoore> yeah, so we can do things that are better than huffman codes
[22:59] <edmoore> and ignore the fact that they are all encumbered by software patents
[22:59] <edmoore> arithmetic codes
[22:59] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, hmmm crash
[22:59] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, what!
[22:59] <edmoore> how to explain arithmetic codes
[22:59] <SpeedEvil> no. because you need to do a huffman-lke compressor to reduce the dct outputs
[22:59] <edmoore> DanielRichman: have you come across the *nix program Dasher?
[22:59] <DanielRichman> edmoore, yes, it's awesome
[22:59] <edmoore> SpeedEvil: oh come on. compex wavelets
[23:00] <edmoore> DanielRichman: ok. so that is a perfect analogy to arithmetic codes
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> embedding ecc is probably sane
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[23:00] <DanielRichman> edmoore, I can see why that won't be fault tolerant at all then
[23:00] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, more info?
[23:00] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, was it a SEGFAULT?
[23:00] <jcoxon> one the phone
[23:01] <jcoxon> on*
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> dasher is not so awesome. It means you need to stare 1pp‰ at the device
[23:01] <DanielRichman> OK
[23:01] <edmoore> hrm, fault tolerance is kind of an orthogonal conversation to the concepts here
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:02] <edmoore> it's really about knowing what kind of data you have (pictures in this case) and saying (as a simplification) 'ok well i have lots of pixels that are basically black, so i'll give black a really short code. like 0. rather than 0001. because it's used so much and this will help keep the file size small'
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> fault tollerance and compression are sort of opposites.
[23:02] <edmoore> so it's at that stage that you use the probabilistic model of your source (an image in this case) to minimise the amount of space you need to encode your image
[23:03] <edmoore> you then face the problem of transmitting the image. that's an entirely separate thing. you can now treat your encoded file as a selectrion of random bits, forget that you every knew it was an image. it's just bits. you add your fault tolerance at this stage
[23:04] <edmoore> sorry about my typing, have one finger plastered
[23:04] <fsphil> which is what I'm doing
[23:04] <edmoore> yeah
[23:04] <edmoore> what FEC are you using?
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[23:04] <fsphil> reed-solomon
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> fault tollerance generates a code where one slightly different bitstream has a constant meaning. compression is sort of the oposite.
[23:09] <edmoore> DanielRichman: asside: Dasher is written by David Mackay, who gave a course I took last year. David Mackay is also the guy who has got as close as has been got to the Shannon Limit, the absolutely limit on the information rate that a given noisy channel can reliably transmit. His Information Theory book is free online and the best textbook that I own.
[23:11] <DanielRichman> edmoore, I will remember that. I was told about Dasher by someone I know who I think loosely knew him; I saw a video of him explaining the concept.
[23:11] <edmoore> he's an excellent lecturer
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> dasher is awesome - for the usecase where you can stare at the device and have very limited io
[23:12] <edmoore> it's precisely analogous to arithmetic coding. optimal information transfer for a single degree of freedom input
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> but that's not quite true
[23:13] Action: SpeedEvil sighs. Too late.
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> It is optimal - assuming the output side is instantaneous.
[23:14] <edmoore> well ok, the usual optimal' modulos apply, like your probabilasitc model (natural language in this case), and there other 17 assumptions
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> for example, someone skilled in morse could probably get a better speed than dasher.
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[23:16] <edmoore> oh yeah sure, but that's details of human beings.
[23:16] <edmoore> i mean optimal in the more abstracted sense
[23:18] <jcoxon> ping rjharrison
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[23:21] <edmoore> phew.
[23:21] <edmoore> sorry. so who's launching next?
[23:21] <edmoore> DanielRichman and sbasuita ? Just not right now. giggle
[23:21] <edmoore> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/hourly-predictions/
[23:21] Action: fsphil learned stuff :p
[23:22] <SpeedEvil> not me!
[23:22] <jcoxon> edmoore, pbh tomorrow, wb8elk on sat perhaps
[23:22] <jcoxon> people in the uk never
[23:22] <edmoore> lol
[23:22] <edmoore> shame i can't hear pbh
[23:22] <jcoxon> fsphil, if you don't mind i won't merge your branch just yet
[23:22] <edmoore> should have brough icom to france
[23:22] <jcoxon> edmoore, globaltuners
[23:22] <Randomskk> I should rig up some kind of antenna for pbh
[23:22] <fsphil> no worries jcoxon, still an experiment anyway
[23:22] <Randomskk> will a random length wire do?
[23:23] <edmoore> i'm not sure gf would forgive me if i spend our french holiday together tuned into gloabaltuners
[23:23] <fsphil> pbh is tomorrow?
[23:23] <Randomskk> edmoore: while using the icom would be fine?
[23:23] <jcoxon> edmoore, don't do it!
[23:23] <DanielRichman> edmoore, alex breton in his (in?)finite knowledge of weather suggested that going-into-the-sea weather would be more common than the winds required to land back in the UK?
[23:23] <edmoore> Randomskk: yeah. at least it's a bit more appreciabley nerdy
[23:23] <Randomskk> haha true
[23:23] <edmoore> rather than just sitting on a sofa
[23:23] <jcoxon> i'll be using global tuners tomorrow
[23:24] <edmoore> DanielRichman: he's probably correct, yep
[23:24] <jcoxon> Randomskk, if you do listen out shall we try and use fldigi?
[23:24] <Randomskk> uh, actually thinking about it, what time was it again?
[23:24] <Randomskk> 9pm?
[23:24] <fsphil> BST?
[23:24] <jcoxon> well ifs its a zp it'll launch at 9pm which i suspect is local time
[23:24] <jcoxon> and it should run for quite some time
[23:24] <Randomskk> I'm in Devon from the evening for several days
[23:25] <Randomskk> which means I could climb a moor and have unblocked horizon in all directions, but
[23:25] <Randomskk> also means internet access is 'lacking'
[23:25] <jcoxon> hehe
[23:25] <jcoxon> well we shall see how it goes
[23:25] <Randomskk> rough flight path?
[23:25] <jcoxon> i'll try and rig dl-fldigi to decode it but i sort of suspect that its not best suited to challenging decoding
[23:26] <jcoxon> give me a bit i'll run hysplit
[23:26] <fsphil> I'll have a listen out for it if it's not too late BST
[23:26] <fsphil> but I get a lot of noise on the HF bands atm -- my antenna is... lacking
[23:26] <jcoxon> fsphil, it should fly for a day or two
[23:26] <fsphil> even better
[23:27] <fsphil> i should finally get my callsign tomorrow too
[23:27] <Randomskk> I haven't ever picked up anything on any hf band yet despite spending a bit of time last term with a 15m or so long wire dangling out my window
[23:27] <Randomskk> just didn't get anything
[23:28] <fsphil> that's essentially what I have here
[23:28] <fsphil> get decent 80m and sometimes 40m
[23:28] <Randomskk> at home I don't even have the height to play with
[23:28] <fsphil> er, 20m even
[23:28] <Randomskk> in devon I have no idea what I'd do
[23:28] <fsphil> never tried 40m
[23:30] <edmoore> me neither
[23:31] <fsphil> anyone recommend a decent newbie atu?
[23:31] <Randomskk> which restricts me to local repeaters which are literally people talking about local traffic or weather or illnesses
[23:31] <jcoxon> Randomskk, how do i go back with git again?
[23:31] <Randomskk> given as I'm not driving, can see the weather and am generally healthy none of those are exactly topics of interest
[23:31] <Randomskk> jcoxon: as in go back in time?
[23:32] <jcoxon> as in make my local copy go back to before my changes
[23:32] <jcoxon> i haven't commited them
[23:32] <Randomskk> and lose changes?
[23:32] <edmoore> hrm, you can get 10m pneumatic masts for ~£100 2nd hand
[23:32] <Randomskk> git reset --hard
[23:32] <edmoore> that's a 1/4 wave for PBH
[23:32] <jcoxon> Randomskk, hmmm as in remove the local changes i've made
[23:33] <Randomskk> git reset --hard will revert all tracked files back to the HEAD commit
[23:33] <jcoxon> oh perhaps i need a make clean as well
[23:33] <Randomskk> git clean will remove untracked files
[23:33] <edmoore> bbiab
[23:34] <Randomskk> make clean will remove compiled object files and binaries but not makefiles and configure scripts
[23:36] <LazyLeopard> Local repeater here occasionally gets echolink wanderers peeking in...
[23:37] <jcoxon> Randomskk, oh poo, if i pulled something will that commit automtically
[23:37] <LazyLeopard> Of course the up-and-coming crowd are all on the D-Star repeater instead... ;)
[23:37] <Randomskk> jcoxon: yes
[23:37] <Randomskk> you can delete your merge commit
[23:38] <Randomskk> if you have uncommitted changes it won't pull
[23:38] <fsphil> I don't like d-star, seems a very closed system
[23:38] <Randomskk> and if you could fast-forward it will do that without committing anything
[23:38] <Randomskk> this is why I like fetching then merging
[23:38] <Randomskk> 'git fetch upstream; git merge upstream/master' merges upstream/master into wherever you currently are, which could be a branch or whatever
[23:38] <jcoxon> okay so how do i go back to before i merged?
[23:38] <Randomskk> git fetch can be used to grab any particular repo too
[23:38] <Randomskk> jcoxon: git checkout commit-id
[23:38] <LazyLeopard> fsphil: Yeah. I don't have D-Star kit, so I'm out of it.
[23:38] <Randomskk> git log -3 will give you the short log for the last three commits
[23:39] <Randomskk> can grab the commit id from that
[23:40] <LazyLeopard> fsphil: Taken your Foundation test yet?
[23:40] <fsphil> over the weekend LazyLeopard, passed. Just waiting on ofcom doing their thing
[23:42] <LazyLeopard> Ah yes. The wheels at Ofcom turn sedately... I passed mine on a Saturday, and the results showed up on Ofcom's site sometime late on the following Wednesday.
[23:42] <Randomskk> just wait for the full test
[23:42] <fsphil> hmm, must check again...
[23:42] <Randomskk> then ofcom have to mark it
[23:43] <LazyLeopard> ...and congratulations.
[23:43] <Randomskk> takes months
[23:43] <LazyLeopard> Randomskk: ...and that takes at least a month...
[23:44] <fsphil> I'm tempted to do the intermediate now, but there is too much travelling involved
[23:44] <Randomskk> intermediate is pretty easy
[23:44] <Randomskk> then again any multiple choice exam with a 60% pass mark is pretty easy
[23:45] Action: LazyLeopard is waiting for a convenient intermediate course to show up...
[23:45] <fsphil> my big problem now is choosing what callsign to use
[23:45] <Randomskk> that is a problem
[23:45] <earthshine> congrats rick
[23:45] <jcoxon> okay the trajectory for PBH-10 is a slow journey going ESE from New York State
[23:45] <jcoxon> LazyLeopard, there is one going on in bromley
[23:46] <jcoxon> well i got an email recently about it
[23:46] <Randomskk> jcoxon: is it a trans-atlantic attempt or?
[23:46] <jcoxon> it won't go very far in 24hrs
[23:46] <jcoxon> its a test flight i think
[23:46] <Randomskk> okay
[23:47] <LazyLeopard> I agonised over a callsign, too.
[23:48] <Randomskk> bear in mind you will instantly forget your foundation callsign as soon as you get your intermediate
[23:48] <Randomskk> and that goes once you get full
[23:48] <Randomskk> I think I was M6AGG?
[23:48] <Randomskk> I never used that one for anything ever
[23:48] <Randomskk> (then again I got my intermediate callsign a minute after my foundation as I did the tests back to back)
[23:48] <jcoxon> i like my foundation callsign
[23:49] <jcoxon> i don't like hte imediate ones
[23:49] <Randomskk> nor do I
[23:49] <Randomskk> the full ones are good though :P
[23:49] <Randomskk> 2E0SKK I liked having SKK but 2E0 is boring
[23:49] <Randomskk> M0RND is okay though
[23:50] <LazyLeopard> jcoxon: Bromley are planning one, but no date's fixed yet. Cray Valley ran one in February, just before I started the Foundation one.
[23:50] <jcoxon> LazyLeopard, i might go to the bromley one if its in june
[23:50] <jcoxon> my exams finish 1st June
[23:50] <fsphil> can the intermediate be done over a weekend?
[23:51] <Randomskk> I'd say yes
[23:51] <Randomskk> depends who you do it with
[23:51] <Randomskk> the practical element can be done in less time than foundation
[23:51] <Randomskk> by and large
[23:51] <Randomskk> think it took an hour for two of us to do the intermediate practical
[23:51] <LazyLeopard> The folks at Bromley said they'd either do it as three full days or as one full day and six evenings. No idea how typical that might be, though.
[23:51] <fsphil> wiring a plug, stuff like that?
[23:52] <Randomskk> yea
[23:52] <LazyLeopard> Soldering a nail...
[23:52] <Randomskk> wire a UK mains plug, solder a connector onto coax, show off a circuit you have made
[23:52] <Randomskk> and finally that weird circuit thing
[23:52] <Randomskk> involving an LED, signal lamp, ohmeter, etc
[23:52] <jcoxon> night all
[23:52] <Randomskk> very basic electronics
[23:52] <russss> I think we're going to do a foundation course at the hackspace
[23:52] <Randomskk> night jcoxon
[23:52] <fsphil> weird circuit thing? sounds intriguing!
[23:52] <Randomskk> fsphil: it's not
[23:53] <fsphil> ah well
[23:53] <fsphil> haha
[23:53] <Randomskk> it's like, a battery, a lamp, a resistor maybe
[23:53] <russss> so if we can drum up enough people for an intermediate we can probably do that there too
[23:53] <Randomskk> oh and a diode perhaps?
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[23:53] <Randomskk> and you should that it only conducts one way or something
[23:53] <Randomskk> demonstrate basic electronics knowledge and the ability to use a dmm
[23:54] <fsphil> I've a few circuits here already I could show
[23:54] <DanielRichman> Oh man now that is timing
[23:54] <Randomskk> that works fine for the 'show a circuit you have made' part
[23:54] <Randomskk> oh
[23:54] <Randomskk> well
[23:54] <Randomskk> it has to have some abstract relationship to radio
[23:54] <Randomskk> very abstract
[23:54] <fsphil> well, it emits lots of RFI ;-)
[23:56] <Randomskk> what is the actual functionality?
[23:57] <LazyLeopard> I've got a half-built seismometer somewhere. The electronics is mostly done. It's waiting for the coils and the hardware...
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[23:57] <fsphil> lighting controller for a nest box (switches between white and IR LEDs depending on the time of day)
[23:57] <fsphil> but the PWM was really noisy
[23:57] <fsphil> interfered with the camera
[23:59] <fsphil> looked great though, my first home made PCB
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[00:00] --- Thu Apr 1 2010