[00:01] <preetum> is the SSB transmission protocol simple? for the payload to transmit over the 10mW, I mean.
[00:01] <preetum> (I'm thinking of using an Arduino to power this)
[00:01] <Randomskk> very simple
[00:01] <Randomskk> has been done with an arduino
[00:02] <Randomskk> recently
[00:02] <Randomskk> by jonsowman and I
[00:02] <Randomskk> >.>
[00:02] <preetum> nice
[00:02] <Randomskk> http://hackaday.com/2010/03/17/arduino-balloon-tracking/
[00:03] <preetum> haha, I actually have that page open in a tab
[00:04] <preetum> Is there any other option to receive the UHF, since I don't need to transmit?
[00:05] <Randomskk> a scanner?
[00:05] <Randomskk> nothing particularly cheap though
[00:07] <preetum> If I were do purchase this handheld: http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/amateur/handheld/v82_u82/specifications.aspx
[00:07] <preetum> I don't think that supports SSB though.
[00:16] <preetum> is it possible just hook up one of the Radiometrix UHF recievers to a yagi?
[00:21] <Randomskk> theoretically but they are not really very good
[00:22] <preetum> hm. what if I put a Radiometrix VHF transmmitter in the payload
[00:23] <preetum> so I could recieve with my existing handhelf
[00:23] <preetum> held*
[00:23] <Randomskk> potentially
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[00:27] <preetum> the "computer link" you mentioned previously: is it more than just audio-out?
[00:28] <preetum> shouldn't I be able to use the audio-out jack from my handheld as input to the analysis program?
[00:31] <Randomskk> yes
[00:31] <Randomskk> that's all it is
[00:34] <preetum> sweet. alright guys, I've got to go now, but thanks for all the advice! I'll be returning to this channel as this project develops.
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[00:46] <natrium42> he should really look into APRS in USA
[00:46] <natrium42> or even 2m band for SSTV, there is no limit as in the UK
[00:48] <Randomskk> lucky sods :P
[00:48] <natrium42> meh, APRS is too boring IMO :P
[00:49] <natrium42> but you could do a lot with 2m, especially as you are not limited to 10mW
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[02:28] <preetum> hey guys, question about Flgidi: is it possible to write scripts which parse the data stream? For example, if I wanted to automatically split and reform the recieved data into jpegs
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[02:35] <natrium42> preetum, you can set fldigi to write all received data to a file
[02:35] <natrium42> and then your script can be reading it
[02:35] <preetum> okay, that's good enough. I can watch that file externally
[02:35] <preetum> yeah
[02:35] <natrium42> btw, APRS is very popular for US balloon launches
[02:36] <natrium42> and you can use licensed frequencies in the air with multiple watts of power
[02:39] <preetum> APRS looks interesting. I'm checking to see if the transmitter I had in mind broadcasts on a supported APRS frequency
[02:39] <tty1> what advantage would there be for using APRS on a balloon
[02:39] <tty1> i could see AX.25
[02:39] <tty1> but APRS, not sure why youd want that
[02:39] <natrium42> tty1, you can use existing infrastructure
[02:40] <natrium42> for position tracking
[02:40] <natrium42> and most of north america is covered many times over
[02:40] <natrium42> especially if your balloon is at altitude
[02:40] <tty1> natrium42, APRS doesnt track your position , your APRS transciever does that itself and reports its positon to the network
[02:41] <preetum> APRS is just a protocol, correct?
[02:41] <tty1> yes
[02:41] <preetum> is there a specific frequency or range of frequencies supported?
[02:42] <tty1> preetum, fairly high level protocol though, AX.25 s the underlieing protocol at low-level
[02:42] <natrium42> APRS is on one particular frequency in US
[02:42] <natrium42> and a different frequency in europe, afaik
[02:42] <tty1> preetum, you can technically use APRS on any frequencies... but there are standards used
[02:43] <tty1> natrium42, also most baloons are on low power constraints such that most terrestial aprs transcievers wouldnt even pick it up.. you have to point a yaggi right at it most of the time
[02:43] <preetum> I was thinking of using this transmitter (http://www.lemosint.com/radiometrix/radiometrix_details.php?itemID=207), which falls a bit out of range. I may still use to protocol, though.
[02:43] <tty1> natrium42, if you upped thepower enough for itto talk without the yaggi youd need a bigger battery, and therefore a much bigger balloon.. usually not too practical.
[02:43] <natrium42> tty1, yeah, hams can be quite cranky
[02:44] <tty1> typically its done witha modest low power transmitter and ayaggi ont he ground with a good receiver
[02:44] <preetum> tty1: I could use a more powerful transmitter, but I'm trying to keep payload costs low (since I may not be able to recover)
[02:44] <preetum> yea, I was planning on the Yagi approach
[02:45] <tty1> preetum, in that case your gonna wanna go with the yagi, yea
[02:46] <natrium42> preetum, APRS is on 144.390 MHz
[02:46] <preetum> I was also thinking about building a Yagi from scratch, as opposed to buying one commercially. Has anyone achieved good results with home-made yagis?
[02:46] <natrium42> try tuning your radio to it
[02:46] <natrium42> i bet you'll hear something
[02:46] <tty1> preetum, oh yes, many many people have built excellent yagi.. if you put a little effort into it then youll easily get the same quality as a commercial one
[02:47] <preetum> natrium42: yup, I hear bursts
[02:47] <preetum> tty1: okay, cool.
[02:48] <preetum> also, just to confirm: I have an ICOM handheld (IC-V82). I don't think it supports SSB or anything, but I should still be able to hook the audio out to Fldigi to decode, correct?
[02:49] <preetum> (it has a "DATA" jack, but I'm not sure what purpose that serves)
[02:49] <natrium42> tty1, most launches on the arhab mailing list use existing INODEs
[02:50] <tty1> preetum, what modes does it cover.. usually SSB is prefered
[02:50] <natrium42> i have the impression that few setup their own to track a launch
[02:50] <tty1> preetum, the data jack has audio in and out, ptt, and usually some other controls.. its how you hook up a TNC to your computer
[02:50] <natrium42> SSTV would be different, of course
[02:50] <preetum> tty1: the specs say "F3E and F2D" modes
[02:51] <tty1> preetum, so its FM only i guess?
[02:51] <preetum> yeah.
[02:51] <tty1> preetum, well, as i said, SSB is usually ideal for digital modes (less wasted energy going to the carrier).
[02:52] <tty1> natrium42, INODE? you mean an aprs node?
[02:53] <natrium42> yeah
[02:54] <tty1> natrium42, i cant speak for arhab or how they do things.. but aprs would work if a node specifically had a yagi and pointed it at the baloon (or more than one).. and would work well enough.. but unless the node has the yagi and specifically targets the baloon it wont work as the baloons signal is usually too wea
[02:55] <tty1> *balloon
[02:55] <natrium42> tty1, http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net.nyud.net/Tracking/Balloons/X0GRB-11*
[02:55] <preetum> I'm planning on putting a GPS + altimeter onboard, which should be enough information to calculate the direction vector for the Yagi.
[02:55] <natrium42> that's the infrastructure usage of one launch
[02:55] <tty1> preetum, yup should
[02:56] <natrium42> tty1, no, that's BS sorry
[02:56] <natrium42> LOS is excellent when balloon is up
[02:56] <natrium42> so it's picked up by many aprs nodes
[02:56] <tty1> natrium42, LOS is, but usually their VERY low power
[02:56] <tty1> as i said you can do it if you up the power
[02:57] <natrium42> actually people limit power output and frequency so as not to offend hams
[02:57] <tty1> again dont know what their setup is, and i never tried aprs with balloons
[02:57] <natrium42> hundreds of launches say otherwise
[02:57] <tty1> but i now when you do balooning you need a yagi to pick up your baloon
[02:57] <natrium42> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Balloon_Sked/
[02:57] <natrium42> you should join that group :D
[02:57] <tty1> natrium42, whats the power output on htese aprs launches though?
[02:58] <natrium42> i am pretty sure it's 1W or more
[02:58] <tty1> right thats what im saying
[02:58] <tty1> if you wanna do a baloon on APRS you need higher power (1W or more)
[02:59] <tty1> with a proper yagi and receiver you can do 100mW and use a much smaller battery
[02:59] <tty1> i never said APRS isnt doable, only that it takes more power
[02:59] <natrium42> right, sure
[02:59] <natrium42> if you want low power
[02:59] <natrium42> but it's unnecessary to keep low power in US
[02:59] <tty1> typically int he balloon setups ive seen their woring with very small, light, transmitters with minimal power consumption
[03:00] <tty1> natrium42, well it isnt required by law no.. but usually people do it to save on payload weight
[03:00] <natrium42> in US?
[03:01] <tty1> natrium42, the few balloons ive seen int he US use a yagi and low power on the balloon yes.. although im not saying you cant do APRS or anything. just not typical of what ive seen, and takes more payload to acomplish.
[03:02] <natrium42> 1 watt is not that much of a power drain
[03:02] <natrium42> 400 mA at 5V if you assume 50% efficiency
[03:03] <natrium42> and you send the messages in bursts
[03:03] <natrium42> a few lithium cells would be more than enough
[03:03] <natrium42> AA
[03:04] <tty1> right, but its still added payload, and 1watt is still pretty low, aprs covrage would likely be fairly spotty (we really need to look at what wattage some of these attempts you linked me used before we assume 1W is even enough)
[03:04] <preetum> natrium42: If I were to use that approach (hypothetically), do you have an example of a VHF Tx rated at 1W?
[03:04] <preetum> for comparison
[03:05] <tty1> but assuming 1W is enough, and we dont know it is, thats still significantly more payload as compared to a transmitter the size of a quarter running off a small watch battery or something.
[03:07] <tty1> natrium42, i think your underestimating just how significant weight is when it comes to ballooning.. light weight means higher altitude (assuming you adjust to mae sure it wont pop)
[03:13] <natrium42> this one would work --> https://www.argentdata.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=81
[03:15] <tty1> if you wanna go 1W + there are lots of options
[03:15] <tty1> and very doable with a larger balloon
[03:16] <tty1> and larger power supply
[03:16] <preetum> I think I'll start small, and upgrade equiptment as neccesary
[03:17] <natrium42> and http://www.argentdata.com/products/otplus.html if you don't want to roll your own
[03:18] <preetum> say, approximatly what data rates are you guys getting with the 10mW transmitters? radiometrix says ~10kb/s but I don't know if that's its practical speed.
[03:18] <natrium42> 50 baud usually
[03:19] <tty1> if you have a yagi and a receiver id recomend going low power and instead get a big enough balloon to get it real high and do some cool stuff like snap pictures or something
[03:19] <tty1> id much rather go high and have less power than keep it lower on higher power
[03:19] <tty1> but thats just me
[03:20] <natrium42> yeah, using APRS network is too boring IMO
[03:20] <tty1> hehe yea where is the fun in it without a big old yagi :)
[03:21] <natrium42> going to use a radiometrix NTX2 module on my next launch :)
[03:21] <natrium42> still need to build/buy a yagi
[03:21] <preetum> yea, my main goal is to snap pictures. since I may not be able to recover, I'm going to try to send down pictures via RTTY
[03:21] <natrium42> i have downlinked pictures digitally on my first launch
[03:21] <tty1> dont get me wrong, aprs has its advantages.. especially if you have some sort of long term high altitude device that may go outside of your range
[03:21] <preetum> it's going to be slow and unreliable, I know. ~15 seconds/ frame 640x480 frame, I calculate
[03:22] <natrium42> http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:halo_flight1
[03:22] <natrium42> quality was decent
[03:22] <natrium42> but i was using the 900MHz XTend modules and an omni antenna on the ground
[03:22] <preetum> cool! so you were able to do that through VHF rtty?
[03:22] <tty1> yea i think getting pictures is the fun part
[03:22] <natrium42> so it went out of range
[03:23] <natrium42> might have worked to the top if i used a yagi...
[03:23] <preetum> oh, okay.
[03:23] <natrium42> that was using 9600 baud and kermit protocol
[03:23] <preetum> those modules are expensive =[
[03:23] <natrium42> yeah
[03:24] <tty1> wow kermit
[03:24] <tty1> i havent seen the kermit protocol since my modem days
[03:24] <natrium42> hehe
[03:24] <tty1> been a LONG time since i fussed with that
[03:24] <natrium42> it works well for this :D
[03:24] <natrium42> those guys are planning to test the XTend again --> http://www.projectiris.com/
[03:24] <tty1> natrium42, i never compared kermit, but i would think one of hte protocols designed for ham might be better (as they usually handle static very well)..
[03:25] <natrium42> maybe they will have better luck
[03:25] <natrium42> tty1, the thing with XTend is that it already handles all the radio protocol stuff
[03:25] <natrium42> so you only get a bidirectional serial line
[03:25] <tty1> natrium42, nice
[03:26] <tty1> natrium42, less fun, but easier than having to pipe it through all the software yourself id imagine
[03:26] <natrium42> it uses frequency hopping too
[03:26] <tty1> cool
[03:26] <natrium42> yep, so i had a linux SBC on the payload (gumstix)
[03:26] <natrium42> and could control it via command line
[03:27] <tty1> i think i i were gonna go with a radio that handles the protocol for ya id do something like zigbee, specifically XBee brand as they are suprisingly compact, easy to work with, good on power, and have lots of different models to choose from
[03:27] Action: natrium42 should really try that setup again with better antennas
[03:27] <tty1> im usually pretty happy with XBee when working on unlicensed low power bands
[03:27] <tty1> never tried XBee on a balloon though
[03:27] <natrium42> would be cool if you could use xbee
[03:28] <natrium42> they are much cheaper :)
[03:28] <tty1> yea their darn cheap
[03:28] <tty1> ive used hem a lot on various projects
[03:28] <tty1> seems like it would wor well for balloons
[03:28] <natrium42> thing with those integrated modules is that you rely on their radio implementation
[03:28] <natrium42> never know how well it handles frequency drift etc...
[03:29] <natrium42> depending on their clock system, might need to heat the module on the balloon to prevent drift
[03:29] <tty1> natrium42, very true.. but balloons arent moving that fast.. so no dopler effect. so the only drif tont he frequency would be fromt he cold, but IIRC they are within spec and can handle a good deal of temperature change
[03:30] <tty1> but i agree that temperature might be a concern
[03:31] <natrium42> XTend modules are rated to 60km LOS, but that's with yagi on both ends
[03:31] <natrium42> would be interesting to try putting a yagi on a balloon :D
[03:32] <natrium42> but a more realistic setup would use a whip on the balloon and yagi on the ground
[03:32] <natrium42> bbl food
[03:35] <tty1> natrium42, good luck keeping the yagi aligned ... doable but a big challenge (especially without much weight for motors or hte antenna
[03:35] <tty1> yea, yagi on the ground whip ont he balloon is typical
[03:37] <preetum> okay, so a 60mW XBee is priced similar to a 10mW VHF
[03:37] <preetum> VHF Tx*
[03:37] <preetum> which would you suggest I use?
[03:38] <preetum> the XBees also have the advantage of MUCH higher data rates
[03:39] <tty1> preetum, you will ant to ive some though on how youll set up your receiving end ont he XBee. i know they have setups where you can hook up an external yagi, although im not sure how sensative it will be as a receiver at long distance
[03:40] <tty1> preetum, i think you will be able to get either to work
[03:40] <tty1> preetum, its more a question of the datarate youll see and the usable distance youll see out of each
[03:42] <preetum> if I use Xbee, I can I use a high-powered TX chip with a low-end RX chip? (with a Yagi on the RX)
[03:44] <tty1> preetum, usually you get better results the other way around with balooning.. an average transmitter with a high quality receiver ont he ground
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[04:02] <natrium42> preetum, it might work if you can get XBee to a very low data rate
[04:02] <natrium42> on the order of 100 baud
[04:02] <natrium42> and if you can use a regular ham radio with it
[04:03] <natrium42> but i doubt that this can be done
[04:04] <tty1> natrium42, they have XBee that are long range low datarate actually.. so would be doable in that aspect... the iffy part here is if an XBee receiver, even on a yagi, would be sensative enough
[04:05] <natrium42> ah
[04:05] <natrium42> yeah, that's the advantage of using a ham radio... it's extremely sensitive compared to the receivers in those modules
[04:06] <tty1> natrium42, yup.. and if you used a ham radio to receive youd need some sort of software zigbee decoder (i dont know of one).. which i think would be the real problem
[04:06] <tty1> natrium42, still, id personally love to try it
[04:06] <natrium42> would be very cool
[04:07] <preetum> why would I need to use a low data rate?
[04:07] <preetum> noise issues or something?
[04:07] <natrium42> exactly
[04:07] <natrium42> the lower the rate, the higher the range
[04:08] <natrium42> that's why the UK guys can achieve 400km on a 10mW transmitter
[04:08] <preetum> ahh, so I'm missing out by using VHF instead of UHF
[04:08] <preetum> oh well.
[04:09] <natrium42> eh? i think you can use VHF
[04:10] <tty1> preetum, well lower datarates can be transmited over greater distances (due to noise)
[04:10] <preetum> but even if I decrease the baud rate of the XBee, wouldn't the frequency remain at 900 MHz?
[04:10] <tty1> uhF would be slightly better than VHF, but vhf will do you fine
[04:10] <preetum> okay, I can understand noise problems
[04:10] <natrium42> yes, that's the carrier freq
[04:10] <tty1> yes the carrier freq wont change
[04:11] <natrium42> you get more reliability if bits are longer in time domain :)
[04:12] <tty1> preetum, think of it like this.. if you made a breif beep in a loud crowded room it might be easy to miss it from across the room.. but if you made a steady beed (spent more time on each bit) it would be easier to distinguish the sound.. right?
[04:13] <preetum> alright, I understand that. thanks.
[04:16] <preetum> the other option I was considering is using a cell phone to SMS all pictures + data
[04:16] <preetum> but that is considerably less interesting
[04:16] <natrium42> and won't work
[04:17] <natrium42> as cellphones break after about 1-2km
[04:17] <natrium42> the cell towers are very directional to the ground
[04:17] <preetum> okay.
[04:18] <natrium42> your other option is iridum :D
[04:18] Action: natrium42 is working on that one
[04:20] <tty1> yup
[04:20] <natrium42> downlinking quality pictures in flight is actually a hard problem
[04:20] <tty1> natrium42, which was actually a big argument for people claiming 911 was a hoax, as the people called in on their cell phones way up in the sky.. which seems impossible
[04:20] <tty1> but yea cell towers are omni but dont gu up and down
[04:20] <tty1> think they use colinear antenna
[04:21] <natrium42> tty1, maybe they used onboard phone?
[04:21] <tty1> natrium42, nope, they claimed it was cell phones (i highly doubt high jacers would just let them use the phone like that)
[04:22] <natrium42> weird, maybe just sloppy reporting
[04:22] <natrium42> preetum, i really recommend retrieving the payload if you want good pictures
[04:23] <tty1> natrium42, i worked for FEMA right after the attack.. and im not saying it was a hoax.. but i can definatly say there was a lot of hidden truth and covered up BS surronding it.. but i dont now enough to draw conclusions from that
[04:23] <natrium42> SSTV will be noisy, XTend may or may not work, satellite phones are $$$
[04:24] <natrium42> tty1, those reports about people using cellphones on planes always surprised me too
[04:25] <natrium42> tty1, i am not sure, but maybe analog cell phones would work?
[04:25] <tty1> natrium42, well there are a few things which dont add up in general. For example i saw the analysis on the metal supports for the structure which had very high concentrations ofaluminum and sulfur. which is another element that didnt add up
[04:26] <tty1> natrium42, nah, analog ell phones wouldnt get around the directivity of ground based towers
[04:31] <preetum> I think the slow data rates for VHF could be a real problem in downlinking pictures.
[04:32] <natrium42> hehe
[04:32] <natrium42> preetum, you could do something like --> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/891643/twitter-image-encoding-challenge
[04:33] <natrium42> see the winning entry
[04:33] <natrium42> lena encoded to 477 bytes and mona lisa encoded to 490 bytes
[04:34] <preetum> haha, I've seen that. On an arduino, genetic-alrogithm based image compression for 640x480 would take 10 minutes in itself.
[04:34] <tty1> preetum, uhf would be suprior if its overhead.. you have LOS so why not... the only advantage of vhf is that the curvture of the earth wouldnt seem as extreme so youd reach it even when it passes the horizon.. usually not a problem
[04:34] <preetum> what I lose in file size, I gain in processing time
[04:34] <tty1> preetum, so yea, uhf would be better, but not by a huge ammoutn
[04:35] <natrium42> preetum, use a gumstix :)
[04:35] <natrium42> or beagleboard
[04:35] <preetum> yea, the only reason I'm using VHF is because I have a VHF handheld, and I really don't have the money to spend on a UHF reciever
[04:35] <tty1> beagleboard is fun :)
[04:35] <tty1> preetum, then stick to vhf, it will be plenty workable
[04:36] <preetum> okay. I am worried about VHF, because I'll need to write error-checking protocols and such (XBee has that already?). At 10 kb/s, error checking is going to need to be pretty smart
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[04:37] <preetum> otherwise each image will take 10 minutes to transmit and 10 minutes more to "fix"
[04:37] <preetum> and woah, I hadn't heard of beagleboard before
[04:37] <preetum> not for this project, but pretty cool still
[04:37] <tty1> preetum, yes XBee does error checking already for you, and it even does auto-resend
[04:38] <preetum> tty1: that sounds really appealing. a lot of work saved, there.
[04:38] <tty1> preetum, yea XBee would make it a lot easier for sure
[04:40] <preetum> there aren't many resources on 900 Mhz Yagi antennas, though
[04:41] <natrium42> preetum, deals exreme has some
[04:41] <tty1> preetum, arrl books have a few in there actually.. although they recomend quagi at that freq
[04:42] <natrium42> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.26145
[04:42] <tty1> in fact if your doing 900mhz your getting to the point where waveguides becomes useful too... a cantenna or similar may work well for ya
[04:43] <preetum> that is actually reasonably priced. I may just buy that one instead of building my own.
[04:44] <tty1> that works :)
[04:45] <preetum> If I have a Yagi on the ground and a whip in the payload, will transmission quality be equal in both directions?
[04:46] Action: natrium42 tries nanocrunch on one of his images
[04:46] <tty1> preetum, yup, the path should be the same both ways
[04:47] <preetum> okay. so I can send confirmation packets from the ground to check if the payload's in range. past this point it'll save to SD card
[04:47] <preetum> then once it's in range again (on the descent), it'll dump the SD card
[04:48] <natrium42> hehe --> http://natrium42.com/balloon/nanocrunch/nanocrunch-decoded-from-482.jpg
[04:49] <natrium42> not too bad for 482 bytes :)
[04:49] <tty1> yea with antenna it usually has the same gain both ways.. however transmitter/receiving sensativity and power are other issues
[04:49] <natrium42> original was http://natrium42.com/balloon/nanocrunch/test.jpg
[04:49] <preetum> nice natrium42
[04:50] <tty1> i wrote a image compression algorithm that would be ideal for this situation actually
[04:50] <tty1> it is lossy but it speciically is designed for performance over a lossy medium like RF
[04:50] <tty1> its open source too, so good for ham bands
[04:51] <preetum> cool! link?
[04:51] <tty1> preetum, http://wiki.syncleus.com/index.php/DANN its one of the demos in that package (i wrote that and own that company)
[04:53] <preetum> alright, I'll look into that.
[04:53] <tty1> preetum, its an AI library, very advanced
[04:54] <tty1> preetum, but you could pull out the image compression stuff from the demo is need be
[04:55] <preetum> I read the link. What's the compression algorithm based upon?
[04:55] <tty1> preetum, feedforward, backprop, neural nets
[04:56] <preetum> nice. I don't think simulations will run fast enough on the Atmega, but I may use it for future projects
[04:56] <tty1> preetum, well training the net is slow and needs to be done ahead of time.. but once trained it isnt very processor expensive to do.. its more a matter of memory thats an issue
[04:56] <preetum> I used to me really into nueral nets. I could never get them to operate fast enough for any practical application, though
[04:57] <preetum> yeah
[04:57] <preetum> be*
[04:58] <tty1> preetum, this is actually fairly fast as neural nets go.. but generally your right, they can be fairly expensive
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[05:03] <preetum> Since the Xbees are modular, I think I can progressivly decrease baud rate with altitude
[05:04] <tty1> preetum, that has little to do with modularity..
[05:04] <tty1> preetum, but no you need to pick the model you want up front.. go with their long distance low baud one.
[05:07] <preetum> ah okay, I though I could change the baud rate on the fly
[05:08] <preetum> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9099
[05:11] <tty1> preetum, no i dont think you can.. not that i recall anyway
[05:11] <tty1> preetum, but they had models that worked 10 miles in cities (so they claim) which means to me it should hit a balloon rather easy with a yagi
[05:20] <preetum> what barometer do you guys use?
[05:21] <preetum> or does the GPS provide sufficient altimetry data?
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[05:22] <tty1> preetum, there are lots of options , most gps will do it, but that isnt the same as an altimeter which uses air pressure which has its own uses
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[05:23] <natrium42> make sure to select a gps module that is known to work at altitude
[05:23] <natrium42> ublox would be a good choice
[05:24] <tty1> yea
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[06:57] <tty1> what is the longest you could easily keep a balloon in the air you think?
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[07:20] <natrium42> tty1, http://tiger.gsfc.nasa.gov
[07:21] <natrium42> 31 days
[07:21] <natrium42> hrm, actually there have been even longer duration missions since then
[07:21] <tty1> natrium42, at what ind of cost though?
[07:22] <natrium42> well, it's nasa
[07:22] <tty1> natrium42, hehe yea
[07:22] <natrium42> tty1, have you seen solar balloons?
[07:23] <tty1> natrium42, my goal has always been to make some sort of a long term automated device that can stay up for a year off solar power somehow
[07:23] <tty1> natrium42, the black ones that use the heat?
[07:23] <natrium42> yeah
[07:23] <tty1> natrium42, yea
[07:23] <natrium42> might be worth looking into for long duration
[07:23] <tty1> natrium42, ::nod::
[07:24] <tty1> natrium42, id love something that could stay up long term and be RC .. and solar powered
[07:24] <juxta> the MIR balloons managed 70ish days, didnt they?
[07:24] <tty1> natrium42, i was even thiningof doing some sort of automated boat/sub device
[07:24] <natrium42> juxta, oh, you're right
[07:24] <juxta> http://ballons.cnes.fr:8180/html/mir/mir_gb.htm
[07:24] <tty1> *thinking of
[07:25] <juxta> that was using IR reflection
[07:25] <natrium42> MIR was awesome
[07:26] <tty1> cool
[07:26] <natrium42> tty1, i was thinking about making the atlantic halo payload float if it lands short
[07:26] <natrium42> then it would go into a special low power mode to last 30 days
[07:26] <natrium42> sending position just a few times per day using satellite
[07:27] <natrium42> main problem is building it water-tight without adding any weight
[07:27] <tty1> natrium42, my idea was a device that is large and flat (like a disc but more aerodynamic) with solar panals ont he top and little electric motors under
[07:27] <tty1> natrium42, could use the sun to power its trek slowly across the ocean
[07:28] <natrium42> that would be very awesome
[07:28] <juxta> hehe
[07:28] <juxta> that is nifty
[07:28] <tty1> natrium42, if i could get it to cross the atlantic, tae a picture of the shore then come all the way home that would be awesome
[07:28] <natrium42> haha
[07:28] <juxta> haha, quite a feat that
[07:28] <tty1> yea it would be a feat :)
[07:28] <tty1> lots of fun
[07:29] <juxta> this springs to mind:
[07:29] <juxta> http://xkcd.com/695/
[07:29] <natrium42> what size would it have to be so that the motor is large enough to beat the currents?
[07:29] <tty1> cool thing is if it runs out of power it can just shut down and float while it charges
[07:29] <natrium42> poor spirit
[07:29] <juxta> what if it gets inverted?
[07:29] <tty1> natrium42, no idea yet, id imagine with a battery it could actually make do
[07:29] <tty1> juxta, weight it right so it cant
[07:30] <natrium42> there needs to be a predictor for ocean currents!
[07:30] <juxta> heh
[07:30] <natrium42> and ground winds, i guess
[07:30] <tty1> natrium42, yup thats the hard part.. either that or RC control of some sort to report to it the currents
[07:31] <tty1> *RF control
[07:31] <juxta> I have to buy blinds tomorrow
[07:31] <juxta> damn homely things
[07:31] <natrium42> juxta, any launches this weekend?
[07:31] <tty1> if i build in a HF receiver you could send it info daily perhaps.. or a sat phone or something...
[07:32] <juxta> natrium42: not for me at least
[07:32] <juxta> hopefully soon
[07:32] <juxta> but I'm going to the GP this weekend
[07:32] <natrium42> tty1, could use amsat perhaps
[07:32] <natrium42> oh rite
[07:33] <natrium42> but iridium would be much more reliable
[07:33] <natrium42> and you could actually send pictures via it
[07:33] <tty1> natrium42, maybe, would need a good antenna though i think. Although on the ocean id imagine you get the best view of the sats
[07:35] <earthshine> morning
[07:35] <juxta> morning Mike
[07:35] <natrium42> hi mike
[07:35] <tty1> hi
[07:35] <earthshine> what's new?
[07:36] <juxta> nothing much - play with the FSA03 anymore?
[07:36] <earthshine> not since Friday - i've been away this weekend
[07:36] <juxta> oh yeah
[07:36] <juxta> fishing
[07:36] <juxta> hehe
[07:37] <earthshine> yeah
[07:39] <earthshine> As it is a nice sunny day today I'll do some testing outside today
[07:39] <natrium42> 3:40am :S
[07:39] <natrium42> gnite
[07:39] <earthshine> and if all goes well I can then start patching it into the Atmega chip
[07:39] <earthshine> bye
[07:39] <juxta> heh, same time as I got to bed last night natrium42 ;p
[07:39] <juxta> night night
[07:39] <natrium42> i should stop doing that :(
[07:39] <natrium42> but time flies...
[07:40] Action: natrium42 Zzz
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[07:43] <earthshine> no launches lately Juxta ?
[07:43] <juxta> not yet earthshine
[07:43] <juxta> probably in the next week or two
[07:43] <earthshine> cool
[07:43] <juxta> going to the F1's this weekend though
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[07:49] <earthshine> F1 racing?
[07:50] <juxta> yeah
[07:50] <earthshine> cool
[07:50] <juxta> the Melbourne race is this weekend
[07:50] <earthshine> yep
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[10:33] <earthshine> anyone around ?
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[11:01] <earthshine> Anybody on here ?
[11:02] <edmoore> yes
[11:03] <edmoore> how's it going?
[11:04] <earthshine> Hi Ed
[11:04] <earthshine> Question.....
[11:04] <earthshine> Is there a solution for testing code from GPS, when the GPS isn't acquiring lock
[11:04] <earthshine> i.e. fake GPS data via serial ?
[11:05] <edmoore> there is on the wiki an nmea faker program that spits stuff out over the serial port
[11:05] <edmoore> you can use it to bench-test going over the meridian and so on
[11:06] <earthshine> ahh cool
[11:07] <edmoore> it's in C
[11:07] <earthshine> Do you know where on the Wiki it is ?
[11:07] <edmoore> i'll have a looksee, can't remember off the top of my head - i don't find dokuwiki very navigable
[11:08] <earthshine> OK i've found it
[11:09] <edmoore> ok cool
[11:16] <edmoore> does anyone know off the top of their heads the offcom document that specifies the power limits?
[11:17] <earthshine> is it this one - http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/publication/ra_info/ra417.htm ?
[11:19] <earthshine> no it's not
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[11:56] <edmoore> found it
[11:57] <edmoore> ifcom's IR2030 document
[11:57] <earthshine> cool
[11:58] <edmoore> am making a handout (references/further reading) for a talk about CUSF and HAB I'm gving at padarc on wednesday
[12:01] <earthshine> you should put a link to that do on the wiki
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[12:05] <edmoore> the talk?
[12:05] <edmoore> or the handout+
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[12:13] <earthshine> the ofcom document
[12:20] <edmoore> willdo
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[16:58] <earthshine> is there any easy way in irssi to hide all of the quits and joins ?
[17:01] <SpeedEvil> yes
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> It's /set something
[17:02] <SpeedEvil> byut I forget what that is
[17:06] <earthshine> think i've found it
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[17:21] <earthshine> Hi Rick
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[17:23] <LazyLeopard> Hi Mike
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[17:45] <earthshine> Rick do you know anything about irssi ?
[17:46] <LazyLeopard> Not a lot. Tried it once or twice, but don't use it regularly.
[17:48] <earthshine> OK nm
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[18:49] <jcoxon> evening
[18:50] <Randomskk> hi
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[18:50] <SpeedEvil> Linux on ipad! http://terreptik.soup.io/post/44492295/Bild
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[18:54] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, really?
[18:54] <jcoxon> oh right
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[19:13] <jcoxon> stuff wifi - back on 3g
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[20:05] <rjharrison> hi jcoxon
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[20:28] <jcoxon> hey rjharrison
[20:34] <rjharrison> hi jcoxon
[20:34] <rjharrison> sorry looking at the code
[20:35] <rjharrison> I'm scraping the writer function if that's ok
[20:35] <jcoxon> hehe no worries - don't want to disturb that
[20:35] <jcoxon> sure but i'm not sure you really can
[20:35] <jcoxon> isn't it key for curl
[20:35] <rjharrison> oh I thought it was the callback
[20:35] <jcoxon> or is it that you need a function there - doesn't matter what it does
[20:35] <rjharrison> ie after the post
[20:36] <rjharrison> hum perhaps
[20:36] <jcoxon> maybe i'm muddling it up with something else
[20:36] <rjharrison> I'll read up
[20:36] <rjharrison> I'm not sure that you need to bind all dl functionality to --hab
[20:37] <rjharrison> I think the ablity to turn it off on the main screen would be cool
[20:37] <rjharrison> Posting that is and status updates
[20:37] <rjharrison> A checkbox
[20:38] <rjharrison> BTW I have another media company coming to the office tomorrow
[20:38] <jcoxon> rjharrison, oh i agree - i'm not thinking that --hab is more like a special setup
[20:38] <jcoxon> currently it'll all work with normal fldigi
[20:39] <rjharrison> Yep thats cool like the reduced window
[20:39] <jcoxon> i think you should be able to turn internet connection on and off to do testing
[20:40] <jcoxon> another media company?
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[20:43] <rjharrison> jcoxon, they seem to write articles which they sell to the press
[20:43] <rjharrison> Will know more tomorrow
[20:43] <jcoxon> careful :-)
[20:57] <rjharrison> jcoxon you never call the writer function
[20:57] <rjharrison> At least not from what I can see
[20:58] <rjharrison> curl_easy_setopt(curl_handle, CURLOPT_WRITEFUNCTION, write_data); // where write_date = writer
[20:59] <rjharrison> jcoxon did you use it in the old code?
[21:01] <jcoxon> hmmmmm
[21:03] <jcoxon> i may have used it to get the server info back
[21:07] <rjharrison> curl_easy_setopt( easyhandle_status, CURLOPT_WRITEFUNCTION, writer2 );
[21:07] <rjharrison> curl_easy_setopt( easyhandle_status, CURLOPT_WRITEDATA, &test2 );
[21:07] <rjharrison> browsing the old code
[21:08] <rjharrison> anyidea which one worked?
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[21:09] <rjharrison> I'm interested in testing the curreent version is there a way to get it to post data
[21:09] <rjharrison> Ie can i just fire it up?
[21:10] <jcoxon> yeah itll work straight up
[21:11] <rjharrison> Cool
[21:11] <rjharrison> is that testCommPorts new to fldigi?
[21:12] <rjharrison> I can see that being usefull
[21:23] <jcoxon> yeah i think its new
[21:23] <jcoxon> you fired it up?
[21:23] <rjharrison> Yep all is working fine
[21:24] <rjharrison> Need to chat with helen as she's just got back from london
[21:24] <jcoxon> can't see you on view.php
[21:25] <jcoxon> np
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[22:15] <earthshine> evening
[22:29] <jcoxon> evening
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[22:51] <natrium42> o/
[22:51] <Randomskk> \o
[22:52] <fsphil> secret irc handshake?
[22:52] <sbasuita> fsphil, it's a waving person ;)
[22:53] <fsphil> aaah! ic
[22:53] <earthshine> \o/
[22:53] <fsphil> o>
[22:54] <earthshine> ><o>
[22:54] <Randomskk> though we could also secret irc handshakes
[22:54] <Randomskk> I have discovered I can use /exec in irssi to output base64 and gzip and gpg etc text
[22:54] <fsphil> o~
[22:54] <Randomskk> e.g. /exec -o echo -n "hello world" | gzip | base64
[22:54] jcoxon (~jcoxon@ left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[22:54] <Randomskk> H4sIAC/1p0sAA8tIzcnJVyjPL8pJAQCFEUoNCwAAAA==
[22:54] <earthshine> that is a man with an unfeasably large moustache
[22:54] <Randomskk> unfortunately hello world does not compress very well
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[22:55] <fsphil> that's cute
[22:55] <earthshine> try the first act of Hamlet
[22:55] <Randomskk> would work better I suspect but possibly still fall foul of the IRC character limit
[22:55] <fsphil> I made a connect 4 game for mirc years ago that used base64 for the game board data
[22:56] <fsphil> *ahem* not that I'd ever use mirc ...
[23:01] <sbasuita> hmm...
[23:01] <sbasuita> i added an --offline switch to dlfldigi
[23:01] <sbasuita> but get a really odd build error
[23:01] <sbasuita> http://github.com/ssb/dl-fldigi/commit/958b71969457c71a3fb4b0b1d0530229d5c49522
[23:02] <sbasuita> In file included from misc/dl_fldigi.cxx:1:
[23:02] <sbasuita> ./include/fl_digi.h:171: error: expected initializer before ‘format__’
[23:02] <sbasuita> make[2]: *** [fldigi-dl_fldigi.o] Error 1
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[23:08] <sbasuita> any ideas?
[23:09] <DanielRichman> you've skipped a } or ; somewhere in a header, would be my guess sbasuita
[23:09] <natrium42> extern void put_MODEstatus(const char* fmt, ...) format__(printf, 1, 2);
[23:09] <sbasuita> mm that's the line
[23:09] <natrium42> what the hell is format__?
[23:10] <DanielRichman> some crazy backend shazzle
[23:10] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, yeah that's what i thought... but i've looked
[23:10] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, look again (!)
[23:10] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, it won't necessarily be in that file
[23:10] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, need fresh eyes to go over it
[23:10] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, git diff me
[23:10] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, http://github.com/ssb/dl-fldigi/commit/958b71969457c71a3fb4b0b1d0530229d5c49522
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[23:11] <sbasuita> the only change to dl_fldigi.h is +extern bool offline;
[23:11] <sbasuita> maybe i've exposed some upstream bug?
[23:11] <sbasuita> ;P
[23:11] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, run cpp on dl_fldigi.h and pastebin the rather large result
[23:11] <Randomskk> assuming you undo your only change does it work again?
[23:12] <DanielRichman> maybe you're using a reserved word or one that has been declared a macro elsewhere
[23:12] <DanielRichman> yes, sbasuita, try building the previous commit
[23:12] <sbasuita> Randomskk, yeah, it works on the master branch
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[23:15] <DanielRichman> ping sbasuita ^^ cpp?
[23:15] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, http://pastebin.com/JBq8qt7m
[23:15] <sbasuita> cpp also threw this error:
[23:15] <sbasuita> src/include/dl_fldigi.h:10:18: error: string: No such file or directory
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[23:17] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, oops sorry
[23:17] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, that error message i posted above
[23:17] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, the line number is wrong
[23:18] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, it is actually complaining about misc/dl_fldigi.cxx:3
[23:18] <sbasuita> i think
[23:18] <sbasuita> lemme check
[23:18] <sbasuita> ;P
[23:18] <sbasuita> yeah
[23:18] <DanielRichman> also sorry, sbasuita run cpp on dl_fldigi.cxx
[23:19] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, My bets are it being caused by this:
[23:19] <DanielRichman> dl_fldigi.cxx
[23:19] <DanielRichman> / Needed to access --offline flag
[23:19] <DanielRichman> +#include "fl_digi.h"
[23:19] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ye
[23:19] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, but why should that be a problem?
[23:21] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, http://pastebin.com/tXGtdSXZ
[23:22] <Randomskk> ...20k lines
[23:22] <sbasuita> Randomskk, he asked for it *shrug*
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[23:22] <Randomskk> oh yea, I'm not saying it's bad
[23:22] <Randomskk> just that it's a lot of lines
[23:22] <sbasuita> ;P
[23:23] <sbasuita> hi jcoxon
[23:23] <jcoxon> hey
[23:23] <jcoxon> whats up?
[23:23] <sbasuita> jcoxon, i wrote a patch to add an --offline mode that wouldn't spam the tracker
[23:23] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, you forgot to -I src/include/
[23:23] <sbasuita> jcoxon, but it fails to build really weirdly
[23:24] <sbasuita> jcoxon, http://github.com/ssb/dl-fldigi/commit/958b71969457c71a3fb4b0b1d0530229d5c49522
[23:24] <sbasuita> In file included from misc/dl_fldigi.cxx:3:
[23:24] <sbasuita> ./include/fl_digi.h:171: error: expected initializer before ‘format__’
[23:24] <sbasuita> make[2]: *** [fldigi-dl_fldigi.o] Error 1
[23:24] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ok
[23:24] <jcoxon> sbasuita, let me have a look
[23:25] <jcoxon> why the offline cmd arg rather than something in program?
[23:25] <DanielRichman> I think it's intended as more of a testing feature rather than something for the user (?)
[23:25] <jcoxon> :-)
[23:25] <sbasuita> yeah
[23:26] <jcoxon> the approach i was going to take was to make a progdefault.offline variable
[23:26] <jcoxon> which would be stored in the main config file
[23:26] <jcoxon> which could be toggled on and off
[23:26] <jcoxon> that way we can easily setup
[23:26] <jcoxon> if(progdefault.offline == 1) { do dl-fldlgi stuff
[23:26] <jcoxon> }
[23:27] <jcoxon> and by default have it so its offline
[23:27] <jcoxon> then you click a button and it turns on
[23:28] <sbasuita> hmm
[23:28] <jcoxon> similar to what i did with png_wfall and danielrichmans' code
[23:28] <sbasuita> i guess it depends if the end user would ever want to turn it off
[23:28] <sbasuita> they would have already specified --hab
[23:28] <sbasuita> right?
[23:28] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, I reckon it's an upstream bug where you need to include a specific system header before you include fl_digi.h
[23:28] <jcoxon> but we've all tested stuff
[23:29] <jcoxon> and it doesn't need to go straight up
[23:29] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, that hasn't surfaced before because they cba. proper headers where the header includes its own prerequisites
[23:29] <jcoxon> the plan is not to require --hab
[23:29] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, http://pastebin.com/NaXuHGED
[23:29] <sbasuita> jcoxon, ah, so have a menu option for that as well?
[23:29] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, try putting #include fl_digi.h BELOW the systemheaders iostream and string in dl_fldigi.cxx
[23:29] <jcoxon> only that by specifiy --hab you get a special setup
[23:29] <jcoxon> everything will 'work' on normal dl-fldigi
[23:30] <jcoxon> well everything already works on dl-fldigi
[23:30] <jcoxon> normal = not --hab fldigi
[23:30] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, now can you contrast/also pastebin `cpp -I src/include main.cxx, for example?
[23:30] <DanielRichman> (providing the idea above doesn't work)
[23:31] <jcoxon> what do you think - i'm really open to ideas
[23:31] <DanielRichman> I like the idea of somehow having a hab mode which brings out the modifications
[23:31] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, no that didn't work
[23:31] <sbasuita> anyway i've gtg now
[23:31] <DanielRichman> then perhaps it can be acceptable enough to be submitted upstream
[23:32] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, hold on... I'll pull your git commit
[23:32] <Randomskk> not sure if there's much need for it to go upstream though
[23:32] <Randomskk> is that something we want to manage and be responsible for keeping working etc?
[23:33] <DanielRichman> well it's a bit of a pain to have two copies of fldigi installed for some tiny (tiny as in bytes, not awesomeness) modification
[23:33] <DanielRichman> *s
[23:33] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, agreed
[23:34] <jcoxon> i totally agree with a offline mode
[23:34] <Randomskk> true
[23:34] <Randomskk> but there's no need to have both installed if our one can be up to date and have an offline mode
[23:34] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, ok here's your diagnosis
[23:34] <jcoxon> its more how we approach it
[23:34] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, somehow, in main.cxx, the problem line gets converted to this
[23:34] <DanielRichman> extern void put_MODEstatus(const char* fmt, ...) __attribute__ ((format(printf, 1, 2)));
[23:34] <DanielRichman> something does that. I imagine it's a system header. Now we need to find out which one
[23:35] <DanielRichman> ((whereas in dl_fldigi.cxx it comes out of the preprocessor as extern void put_MODEstatus(const char* fmt, ...) format__(printf, 1, 2); ))
[23:35] <jcoxon> if we took the progdefault.offline approach we could have --offline turn that on, a button on the display and an option in the menu
[23:36] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, found it!
[23:36] <DanielRichman> ./include/util.h:# define format__(type_, index_, first_) __attribute__ ((format(type_, index_, first_)))
[23:37] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, include util.h in dl_fldigi.cxx above fl_digi.h
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[23:42] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, http://gist.github.com/340675
[23:42] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, i think he has gone
[23:42] <DanielRichman> the question is whether he's left his PC on or has totally gone
[23:43] <DanielRichman> speaking of going; I'm kind of tired
[23:43] <jcoxon> hehe
[23:44] <jcoxon> i wonder if we need a big dl-fldigi meeting
[23:44] <DanielRichman> :o
[23:44] <DanielRichman> a meeting meeting or an irc meeting?
[23:44] <jcoxon> irc meeting
[23:44] <jcoxon> a really meeting would be effort and scary!
[23:44] <DanielRichman> Woooooo!
[23:44] <DanielRichman> Yes, I have borrowed the UHF analyser and will have it with me at the
[23:44] <DanielRichman> Course. Bring your antenna.
[23:44] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, true
[23:45] <DanielRichman> << the Ham who's training up the foundationees at our school club
[23:45] <DanielRichman> finally gonna get this thing tested!
[23:46] <fsphil> night all o/ ;)
[23:46] <jcoxon> night
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[23:46] <earthshine> \o
[23:46] <LazyLeopard> g'night
[23:46] <DanielRichman> Perhaps I can rival the number of weird looks I got on the bus when taking a 2m pvc pipe (slim jim) by taking a homebrew yagi
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[23:47] <DanielRichman> anyway; bye
[23:48] <earthshine> o/
[23:48] <DanielRichman> \o
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[23:54] <earthshine> night all
[00:00] --- Tue Mar 23 2010