highaltitude.log.20100318

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[08:15] <earthshine> morning
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[09:22] <rjharrison> anyone know the server logging for space
[09:22] <rjharrison> spacenear.us
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[09:55] <earthshine> hello
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[10:02] <earthshine> d
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[10:05] <SpeedEvil> e
[10:08] Nick change: jonsowma1 -> jonsowman
[10:16] <jonsowman> f
[10:22] <earthshine> lol
[10:25] <earthshine> cool
[10:27] <earthshine> just setting up ssh, screen and irssi
[10:27] <earthshine> works cool in Android over connectbot
[10:28] <jonsowman> earthshine: yup works pretty well :)
[10:28] <earthshine> :)
[10:28] <jonsowman> i'm running irssi on my server and then just connect from whatever i'm using
[10:29] <jonsowman> the iphone ssh client is pretty neat
[10:29] <jonsowman> connectbot is apparently very good too, though i dont own an android phone
[10:30] <earthshine> yeah it works really well
[10:30] <jonsowman> hmm wx not looking good for launch at the moment :(
[10:30] <earthshine> :(
[10:31] <earthshine> WHen were you hoping to launch?
[10:31] <jonsowman> not me personally
[10:31] <earthshine> oh
[10:31] <jonsowman> i just know there are a couple of launches waiting to happen
[10:31] <earthshine> yeah
[10:31] <earthshine> which reminds me i must fix my radio
[10:32] <jonsowman> what happened to it?
[10:32] <earthshine> it died at Scotts launch
[10:32] <earthshine> I might have connected a wrongly polarised cable to it - so it should just be a fuse
[10:32] <jonsowman> oh right ok, hmm yes i remember you saying
[10:33] <earthshine> yeah
[10:36] <juxta> hey jonsowman
[10:36] <juxta> saw you on hackaday today :)
[10:36] <earthshine> really?
[10:36] <jonsowman> juxta: :)
[10:36] <juxta> http://hackaday.com/2010/03/17/arduino-balloon-tracking/
[10:36] <jonsowman> earthshine: that tracker Randomskk and I put together for scott's launch
[10:37] <jonsowman> was very hacky, and took less than a day
[10:37] <juxta> looks like you went all out with materials ;p
[10:37] <jonsowman> juxta: oh yes
[10:37] <jonsowman> drinking straw antenna
[10:37] <earthshine> cool
[10:39] <earthshine> i didn't realise you'd used an actual Arduino
[10:39] <earthshine> I thought you just had an Atmega chip on a PCB
[10:39] <earthshine> and just 4 AA batteries powered the Arduino and GPS?
[10:39] <jonsowman> earthshine: it was quicker to use the arduino, and time was our main problem
[10:39] <jonsowman> they were Energiser Lithiums
[10:40] <jonsowman> but yes they powered it fine
[10:40] <earthshine> i'm surprised
[10:40] <juxta> jonsowman: I used drinking straws onmy last payload too :)
[10:40] <jonsowman> juxta: looks a bit silly but it works perfectly well
[10:40] <juxta> yeah I'm a bit surpirsed re the 4 aa's actually - I didnt think the 5v reg on the arduino was low-dropout
[10:41] <earthshine> how long did the transmitter run for ?
[10:41] <jonsowman> we powered it up about 30 mins before launch
[10:41] <jonsowman> and we asked someone to power it down about 1hr after landing
[10:41] <jonsowman> so i'm guessing 4 hours? maybe 4.5
[10:41] <juxta> it would have gone for much longer
[10:42] <earthshine> impressive
[10:42] <jonsowman> those batteries are ~3Ah
[10:42] <juxta> i tested my first payload (very similar, a bit more power consumption given that my TX was 25mw rather than 10mw) & got over 12 hours
[10:42] <jonsowman> juxta: wow thats pretty good
[10:43] <jonsowman> theyre quite expensive though
[10:43] <juxta> but I used an external LDO reg, because the specs for the arduino's regulator stipulate it should have a dropout of 1.5v :P
[10:43] <juxta> hmm, about $10AUD for a 4 pack on ebay here
[10:43] <juxta> which is probably about 4 pound
[10:44] <jonsowman> hmm yes if we'd have done it properly we would have used a seperate LDO reg
[10:44] <jonsowman> I paid about £6.50 in sainsburys
[10:44] <jonsowman> but i needed them that day, so i didnt search for cheaper
[10:45] <earthshine> I was thinking of using a 5v boost convertor such as a MAX756 for mine
[10:45] <juxta> yeah I thought about going that way too
[10:45] <juxta> thne only using say 2 batteries
[10:46] <earthshine> yeah
[10:46] <juxta> but then you need more components, plus you need the power to be noise free
[10:46] <juxta> and a bit of heat from the reg is a good thing :D
[10:46] <jonsowman> hmm yes might be interesting to play with
[10:46] <jonsowman> 3v boosted to say 6v and then linear reg'd to 5v?
[10:46] <juxta> haha
[10:47] <juxta> thats an option too i guess
[10:47] <jonsowman> only use two batteries, nice clean power, and a bit of heat
[10:47] <earthshine> you can boost it to 5.5v
[10:47] <jonsowman> yeh
[10:47] <jonsowman> then an LDO to 5V
[10:47] <earthshine> yup
[10:47] <earthshine> they do generate a bit of heat themselves as they are not 100% efficient
[10:48] <jonsowman> yup
[10:48] <jonsowman> hmm i might try that
[10:48] <earthshine> The LT1302 can give out 12v too
[10:48] <earthshine> 5v 600mA - 12v 120mA
[10:48] <jonsowman> i cant see it being significantly more inefficient than say 6V + LDO to 5V
[10:49] <jonsowman> obviously it will be slightly, but that only goes to heat
[10:49] <earthshine> yes they are pretty efficient - around 90%
[10:49] <jonsowman> hmm
[10:49] <jonsowman> interesting
[10:49] <earthshine> check out 'mintyboost'
[10:50] <earthshine> on LadyAda's webite - there are full schematics
[10:50] <earthshine> it is desoigned for charging an iPod from 2 cells but it could be used for anything
[10:50] <earthshine> it genereates 5v from 2 AA's
[10:50] <earthshine> sorry for bad spelling this morning i'm still half asleep
[10:51] <jonsowman> hmm thats exactly what we want
[10:51] <jonsowman> worth investigating
[10:52] <earthshine> yep
[10:52] <earthshine> i've made one before for powering an Intervalometer with LCD screen from 2 AA's
[10:52] <earthshine> using the LT1302
[10:53] <earthshine> worked really well
[10:57] <earthshine> you could even use a Alterantively - something like this - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/12V-Rechargeable-Li-ion-battery-For-CCTV-Camera-4800mAh_W0QQitemZ270441270580QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM?hash=item3ef78e4d34
[10:58] <jonsowman> mm yeh
[10:58] <earthshine> or this - http://tinyurl.com/ydfbphp
[10:58] <earthshine> 9800mAh
[10:59] <jonsowman> yeh thats pretty good
[10:59] <jonsowman> would run for days lol
[10:59] <earthshine> yup
[10:59] <earthshine> nice anad light too
[11:01] <jonsowman> mm
[11:01] <jonsowman> im definitely going to give the 3v -> 5.5v -> 5v thing
[11:01] <jonsowman> might prototype a mintyboost
[11:03] <earthshine> cool
[11:05] <earthshine> jon - i'm on my iMac now - but if I want to log in from my phone into this screen session do I need to detch it first ?
[11:05] <earthshine> *detach
[11:07] <jonsowman> nope
[11:07] <jonsowman> multiple connections to screen sessions are fine
[11:08] <earthshine> do i need to set anything to enable that though or will it do it anyway ?
[11:08] <jonsowman> nope should be fine by default
[11:08] <jonsowman> is it not working?
[11:09] <earthshine> haven't tried it
[11:09] <jonsowman> ok yup should be fine I think
[11:09] <jonsowman> obviously both connections will be to the same screen session so when you type on your phone, you'll see it appear on your iMac
[11:11] <earthshine> "there is no screen to be resumed"
[11:11] <jonsowman> "screen -ls"
[11:11] <jonsowman> does that return "no sockets..."
[11:12] <earthshine> yes
[11:12] <earthshine> no
[11:12] <earthshine> 2 sockets....
[11:12] <jonsowman> ah, you've got two screen sessions running
[11:12] <earthshine> hmm
[11:12] <jonsowman> "screen -r <name>" lets you reattach to a chosen one
[11:13] <jonsowman> and close the one you dont need with "ctrl-a k"
[11:13] <jonsowman> then "screen -x" will work and attach to the one remaining session
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[11:17] <jonsowman> hmm... that went well then
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[11:27] <earthshine> hmm
[11:29] <jonsowman> get anywhere?
[11:29] <jonsowman> i assume irssi is running on your iMac?
[11:29] <earthshine> Aha
[11:29] <earthshine> fixed
[11:30] <jonsowman> :) what was it?
[11:30] <earthshine> now talking from phone
[11:30] <earthshine> and now talking from iMac
[11:30] <jonsowman> wahey
[11:30] <jonsowman> good good :)
[11:30] <jonsowman> screen is pretty awesome huh?
[11:30] <jonsowman> :)
[11:30] <earthshine> I was adding the bit after the last . when trying to connect
[11:30] <jonsowman> ah right
[11:30] <earthshine> i.e. the iMac's ID - i needed to leave that bit out
[11:30] <jonsowman> yeh
[11:31] <jonsowman> fair enough:)
[11:31] <earthshine> cool
[11:32] <earthshine> great
[11:32] <earthshine> thx for your help
[11:33] <jonsowman> no worries :)
[11:39] <jonsowman> right bbl
[11:42] <earthshine> bye
[11:54] <earthshine> test
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[14:35] <earthshine> hi ed
[14:35] <edmoore> hi mike
[14:36] <edmoore> how's it going?
[14:38] <earthshine> ok thanks
[14:38] <earthshine> My digital bench PSU arrived today
[14:38] <earthshine> ready for me working on the payload next week
[14:39] <russss> digital! ;)
[14:39] <edmoore> awesome. they're a very useful thing to have
[14:39] <edmoore> we have an analogue one in our lab. silly really, i have a digital one at home, and I am never at home
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[14:40] <earthshine> yeah - it's nice. 0-30v and 0-5amps
[14:40] <russss> we got some of those from Rapid
[14:40] <earthshine> Sold my first FSA03 to jon too
[14:40] <russss> cheap too
[14:41] <russss> http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/Power-Supplies/Bench-PSUs/100W-Switch-mode-bench-PSU/78617/kw/bench+power+supply
[14:41] <russss> (actually they were discounted more than that when we bought them)
[14:41] <earthshine> mine was cheaper than that
[14:41] <russss> yeah heh
[14:42] <earthshine> http://cpc.farnell.com/_/in05524/power-supply-bench-led-30v-3a/dp/IN0552405?Ntt=IN0552405
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[14:43] <russss> yeah I got the 20v/5A ones for £40+VAT each
[14:44] <russss> bargain I say
[14:44] <earthshine> cool
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[14:58] <jcoxon> earthshine, do you think the fsa03 needs a breakout board or do you think soldering wires directly would be fine?
[14:58] <earthshine> It is designed to solder flat onto a PCB
[14:59] <earthshine> For testing purpose you could solder some headers onto it
[14:59] <jcoxon> is is 0.1"?
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[15:00] <earthshine> 3mm
[15:00] <earthshine> so yes
[15:00] <earthshine> but....
[15:00] <earthshine> 4.7mm for the 3 on the end
[15:01] <earthshine> http://www.falcom.de/uploads/media/AppNote_FSA03_rev_1.0.2.pdf
[15:03] <jcoxon> thanks
[15:04] <earthshine> a breakoutboard wopuld be ideal though - especially for testing
[15:04] <earthshine> we'll have to design one
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[15:07] <edmoore> is there an eagle package for it floating about?
[15:08] <earthshine> i have an eagle library for the pin pads
[15:09] <edmoore> is it downloadable?
[15:09] <earthshine> i can email it to you
[15:10] <edmoore> that'd be grand
[15:10] <jcoxon> edmoore, going onto badger?
[15:10] <edmoore> probs not
[15:10] <edmoore> we osten use external antennas
[15:11] <edmoore> often*
[15:11] <edmoore> but might go on badger cub and some other smaller things
[15:11] <jcoxon> :-)
[15:12] <edmoore> the badgers are taking on a bit of a rocket focus atm as we seem to be mainly rockets rather than balloons for the next few months.
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[15:12] <jcoxon> cool cool
[15:13] <jcoxon> going to swap my the lassen on BH5 for the fsa03
[15:13] <jcoxon> back to my beloved ubloxes
[15:13] <edmoore> they are so very much better
[15:18] <earthshine> ed i've sent the file to you
[15:19] <earthshine> hope you get it OK
[15:20] <edmoore> not yet but will assume it's taking a scenic route around the intertubes
[15:25] <edmoore> got it
[15:25] <edmoore> ta
[15:26] <edmoore> your temp probe looks good. might get us a few of those.
[15:27] <jcoxon> edmoore, started a faq section on hte wiki
[15:27] <edmoore> coolio
[15:27] <jcoxon> though haven't really got round to writing it up - some of your standard answers would be useful if you have them lying around
[15:27] <edmoore> we can become a proper irc channel
[15:27] <earthshine> yeah they are nice. Good way to package the DS18B20's
[15:27] <edmoore> 'read the wiki first. don;t ask to ask, just ask'
[15:28] <edmoore> earthshine: yeah. what's the mass, do you know?
[15:30] <earthshine> 16g
[15:34] <earthshine> Do things hot glued to the side of payloads stay on? i.e. does the glue fail at -55c ?
[15:36] <jcoxon> earthshine, hot glue seems to be good
[15:36] <edmoore> I'd be inclined not to trust it for anything load bearing though
[15:36] <earthshine> it's to attach a small and light science payload to the side
[15:36] <edmoore> maybe just gluing sheets of polystyrene together
[15:36] <edmoore> i'd have a backup
[15:37] <edmoore> cable ties or something
[15:37] <edmoore> although those two should definitely not be load-bearing!
[15:37] <earthshine> k
[15:37] <edmoore> too*
[15:40] <jcoxon> so glue + duct tape + cable ties + string should be fine
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[16:43] <rjharrison> hey
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[16:53] <earthshine> hey
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[17:05] <rjharrison> hi earthshine
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[17:31] <rjharrison> Ping natrium42
[17:31] <natrium42> ohai
[17:31] <rjharrison> pm
[17:31] <natrium42> sure
[17:31] <natrium42> if webchat supports it :)
[17:32] <rjharrison> natrium42 does it work?
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[17:38] <rjharrison> crap
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[17:39] <natrium42> rjharrison: something happened to webchat
[17:39] <natrium42> but pm was working
[17:59] <rjharrison> bbl
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[18:29] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:43] <Randomskk> yay
[18:43] <Randomskk> returned the shitty kodak for a refund and bought a brother inkjet scanner
[18:43] <Randomskk> brother actually make linux drivers so now I can print and scan all day
[18:43] <Randomskk> plus this printer was cheaper but has builtin ethernet and wifi
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[19:21] <F4EIR> hello all
[19:21] <Randomskk> hi
[19:22] <fsphil> hiya F4EIR
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[19:23] <F4EIR> is there a scheduled next event ?
[19:23] <Randomskk> not that I know of, weather is currently very very bad
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> laurenceb: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/03/18/1739249/3-D-Printer-Creates-Buildings-From-Dust-and-Glue
[19:26] <F4EIR> yes maybe the come of spring will change that
[19:26] <Randomskk> it should patch up soon enough
[19:26] <Randomskk> right now it's just all over the channel though, terrible
[19:26] <fsphil> if you released a balloon now from Cambridge, where would it end up?
[19:26] <Randomskk> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/hourly-predictions/
[19:27] <Randomskk> in the sea between here and the netherlands
[19:27] <Randomskk> each of those red dots is the result of a sim run for a release hourly for the next week
[19:27] <Randomskk> the end of the week sees it coming back over norwich so it seems to be picking up a bit
[19:27] <fsphil> aaah now I understand what that map's saying
[19:32] <fsphil> heh, a month at sea really doesn't help pcb's much: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/3863616068/
[19:32] <fsphil> was the SD card still in it?
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[19:35] <Randomskk> fsphil: have to ask edmoore when he pops in
[19:35] <fsphil> ah, so that's his creation
[19:35] <Randomskk> well he was around at that point
[19:38] <F4EIR> did you have a part of the wiki explane how landing prediction work ? i have tried to clic on map but wrong way
[19:38] <Randomskk> it should mostly be a case of www.cuspaceflight.co.uk/predict and enter your details then it should show the flight path on the map
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[19:41] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, hourly predictions are looking up :)
[19:42] <Randomskk> sbasuita: for the end of the week maybe
[19:42] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, :O
[19:42] <Randomskk> still got a while to go before we hit properly dry land
[19:42] <sbasuita> yes
[19:46] <F4EIR> Randomskk: thank you
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[20:01] <sbasuita> Is it feasible to put a bright light on a balloon and see it at 35k at night?
[20:02] <Randomskk> with clear skies maybe but everyone would see it...
[20:02] <sbasuita> Randomskk, ufo?
[20:02] <sbasuita> could have it do morse code as an easter egg ;P
[20:03] <sbasuita> 'we come in peace' 'take me to your leader' xd
[20:03] <DanielRichman> uplink to enable/disable light
[20:03] <sbasuita> no
[20:03] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, yes
[20:03] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, but :) @ "we come in peace"...
[20:05] <fsphil> "resistance is futile"
[20:05] <fsphil> it would need to be a pretty bright light
[20:06] <sbasuita> the question is just how bright
[20:06] <DanielRichman> does ofcom regulate transmissions on visible light?
[20:06] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, we already have a shitload of light pollution
[20:06] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, i'm sure nobody cares
[20:06] <DanielRichman> also don't the laws that cover laserpenning down helicoptors apply to sticking random bright lights in the sky?
[20:06] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, it's not going to bright enough to blind pilots
[20:06] <DanielRichman> I know that; that's not the point
[20:07] <sbasuita> 1) Hold your nose 2) Hum 3) ??? 4) D;
[20:08] <fsphil> sheesh, you wouldn't believe the wind here atm.
[20:10] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: very
[20:10] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil, is it feasible?
[20:10] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: A star - an easily visible one - is 0.9nW/m^2 at the ground
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: to cover a patch 31*31km
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: is 1W of visible light
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: this is about 5W from decent LEDs
[20:12] edmoore (~836f0142@gateway/web/freenode/x-iwbijejedvwplbsl) joined #highaltitude.
[20:12] <edmoore> evening all
[20:12] <sbasuita> yo edmoore
[20:13] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil, sorry, i don't follow :/
[20:14] <edmoore> Enceladus: how's the learning curve going?
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> If you go down to a patch 1km*1km, you take it to magnitude -1, which is _very_ bright.
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> http://stjarnhimlen.se/comp/radfaq.html
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: where did I lose you?
[20:15] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil, "this is about 5W from decent LEDs" ?
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> sbasuita: ah. 5W input power - electrical
[20:15] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil, yeah but i don't get what this relates to
[20:15] <sbasuita> oh right
[20:15] <fsphil> are led's only 20% efficient?
[20:15] <sbasuita> yeah the efficienty
[20:15] <sbasuita> i see
[20:15] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: yes - the good ones - about that
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: well - blue are ~50% - but due to the inefficiency of the eye - look dimmer
[20:16] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, where are going to get 5W from!? We'll have to strobe it or something
[20:16] <Randomskk> flashing it would make it easier to see
[20:16] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, yeah flashing is easier to spot anyway
[20:16] <DanielRichman> flash morse; let'sgo
[20:16] <SpeedEvil> yes - I was assuming something like .1s on, 10s off
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> that takes you down to ~50mW
[20:17] <DanielRichman> then uplink to activate sending of morse message!
[20:17] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, no uplink!
[20:17] <DanielRichman> whyyy!
[20:17] <sbasuita> we could have three colours @_@
[20:17] <sbasuita> do a rave thing you know
[20:17] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, you're toying with dangerous forces here
[20:18] <sbasuita> can we convert the ievan polkka into morse?
[20:18] <sbasuita> >_>
[20:18] <DanielRichman> we could morse a tinyurl
[20:18] <sbasuita> ok cool this is definitely something we should do for alien2
[20:18] <fsphil> with a telescope on the ground, you'd probably be able to encode a fair bit of data into the light
[20:18] <DanielRichman> keeping the telescope steady will be fun
[20:19] <DanielRichman> speaking of telescopes, sbasuita, did the physics department get their grant?
[20:19] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, i hope not
[20:19] <DanielRichman> :P
[20:19] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, also i think the games department are putting together a proposal for a sports hall instead of greenhouse
[20:20] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, er...
[20:20] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, isn't it a bit late for that?
[20:20] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, god knows
[20:20] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, also remember that Weeds is Der Fuhrer, he'll tell them to get lost
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[20:23] <sbasuita> aww lucid beta 1 postponed till tomorrow :(
[20:23] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, you wern't going to download it anyway... were you?
[20:23] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, also is lucid the one where they're going to pimp the boot time?
[20:24] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ye i was
[20:25] <DanielRichman> I wonder how fast it will become
[20:25] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, ubuntu have been pimping the boot time for ages
[20:25] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, 10 sec target on the dell mini iirc
[20:25] <DanielRichman> good
[20:25] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, that might actually be to desktop with autologin
[20:25] <DanielRichman> So.... anyone got any good ideas for (thinking ahead) alien flight
[20:25] <DanielRichman> *
[20:25] <DanielRichman> #2
[20:25] <DanielRichman> (every time I went to press the hash key... -.-_
[20:26] <DanielRichman> (they don't have to be practical) (not including sstv, visible light ufo/rave, downwards facing camera, night launch, ionizing radiation measurements
[20:30] <fsphil> IR camera .. cut through the haze, sharper images of the limb maybe?
[20:30] <edmoore> just do a first flight asap. It's a bit like software - just release something, even if it's a bit crappy. then get onto the development treadmill
[20:32] <sbasuita> that's what i keep saying!
[20:32] <fsphil> ooh, found a neat page for figuring out AVR fuses: http://www.engbedded.com/fusecalc/
[20:33] <DanielRichman> edmoore, yeah but we've gotta submit a document applying for moneyz from the "old redigensians" soon; so want some defined goals on "what we'll do" with the cash
[20:33] <edmoore> they sound hard to please
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> Coke and hookers.
[20:38] <fsphil> camera and atmega are now talking .. now to get it taking pictures
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[20:40] <kleinjt_> on the topic of optical ufo/rave, and interesting resource is http://modulatedlight.org/optical_comms/optical_index.html . people have gotten over a 100km range with freespace optical communication using LEDs. sticking the transmitter in a balloon might make line of sight easier.
[20:41] <kleinjt_> though, that is with directional lenses, which might not be practice for something swinging from a balloon..
[20:41] Action: kleinjt_ returns to lurking
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> with a modest scope, and a filter, should be quite possible
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> especially with a blue LED and filter
[20:43] <fsphil> would it work in daylight though?
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> yes
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> SNR will drop
[20:46] <fsphil> that would be a really interesting experiment
[20:47] <fsphil> would need a fairly good supply of power though
[20:48] <edmoore> you needs a laser
[20:48] <edmoore> otherwise you're just heading up the RF spectrum with all it's associated free-space path loses as the square of frequency.
[20:49] <edmoore> but a laser is like having a dish of infinite diameter - really quite exciting
[20:52] <fsphil> the laser could be aimed with a small tiltable mirror
[20:53] <fsphil> still, will be very difficult to keep it on target
[20:54] <edmoore> you'd get in trouble too
[20:54] <edmoore> aiming lasers into the sky is a bit frowned upon
[20:54] <fsphil> what if it was an IR laser? does such a thing exist?
[20:54] <edmoore> yes
[20:55] <edmoore> laser cutters use them
[20:55] <edmoore> you could use it as a cutdown
[20:55] <fsphil> well, I'm not talking quite those power levels :)
[20:55] <fsphil> a few milliwatts would do
[20:56] <edmoore> to tx up to a balloon from the ground I would have thought a 20W tube would be about right
[20:57] <fsphil> that's quite a bit for a laser
[20:57] <edmoore> you've got a lot of air to get through
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[20:57] <fsphil> true
[20:58] <fsphil> and the diffraction would cause all sorts of problems
[20:59] <edmoore> methinks lower frequencies are better suited for this sort of thing
[20:59] <fsphil> yep - just a shame we have so few
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[21:40] <Enceladus> edmoore, very well thanks! :)
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb:
[21:40] <sbasuita> smells
[21:40] <earthshine> evening
[21:40] <SpeedEvil> (07:25:14 PM) SpeedEvil: laurenceb: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/03/18/1739249/3-D-Printer-Creates-Buildings-From-Dust-and-Glue
[21:40] <edmoore> Enceladus: good to hear
[21:42] <Enceladus> edmoore, can't wait to get started.
[21:42] <edmoore> handy with a soldering iron?
[21:43] <Enceladus> I have 10 years experience in the trade ;)
[21:43] <edmoore> oh sorry, I was m0tek yesterday btw
[21:43] <Enceladus> Oh, hi m0tek :)
[21:43] <edmoore> that being my callsign and the default login from a different laptop
[21:43] <fsphil> speaking of soldering, got a new iron today -- couldn't believe the difference
[21:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
[21:44] <edmoore> a good iron makes ALL the difference. It's quite amazing.
[21:44] <Enceladus> edmoore, I am a student - yes - but only part time. I work full time in the trade, as I have done since leaving school.
[21:44] <edmoore> ah cool
[21:45] <Enceladus> So yes soldering is not a problem. :)
[21:46] <edmoore> grand. got any ideas about flight electronics hardware?
[21:47] <Enceladus> Yes. I want to do as much as possible myself, so that means designing all the electronics and writing all the software. You guys seem to talk about AVR a lot but I'm more familiar with PIC (although I program mainly in C these days so target is not so important) but I'll stick to what I'm comfortable with I think!
[21:48] <edmoore> can't say fairer than that
[21:48] <DanielRichman> Enceladus, avr C is much nicer imo.
[21:48] <edmoore> the last two flight computers i've co-built have been ARM infact
[21:48] <DanielRichman> Enceladus, stay away from Arduino-C though; that's just nasty
[21:49] <Enceladus> DanielRichman, nah. C is C where ever you go. But maybe the compilers are nicer on AVR? I don't know I've never tried AVR dev environments. But I'm used to my C compiler for PIC. I know its strengths and weaknesses. Better the devil you know :)
[21:50] <Enceladus> edmoore, ARM eh? I'd like to get into ARM stuff
[21:51] <edmoore> Enceladus: yeah it's quite rewarding. The extra ooomph just makes things that are stretching the 8-bitters (like a FAT32 file system on an sd card for logging) really quite comfortable
[21:52] <edmoore> we've used the philips LPC2148 on badger1 and the LPC2368 on badger2
[21:52] <edmoore> both ARM7
[21:52] <edmoore> GCC-based toolchain.
[21:53] <Enceladus> edmoore, funny you should mention that - I am currently in the process of writing some SD card software for PIC. My target device has lots more RAM than your average 8-bit PIC though. I discovered that RAM was a necessity ;)
[21:53] <edmoore> dspic?
[21:54] <Enceladus> No, this one is just an 8-bit PIC. But I have recently got myself a Development Board for the 16-bit PIC 24Fxxxx series, which also supports dspic
[21:54] <Enceladus> I'm quite excited about that.
[21:54] <Enceladus> But my compiler doesn't support 16-bit devices, which is a slight pain
[21:54] <edmoore> the main reason for switching to the 2368 for badger2 was the hardware sd peripheral - you can write onto the sd card at megabits, which is helpful for some of our fast-logging for our rockety projects. overkill for a balloon flight though
[21:55] <edmoore> you'll see the light soon with GCC (avrs and arms)
[21:55] <edmoore> :p
[21:55] <edmoore> there's a website called avrfreaks whose forum is the best example of a hobby electronics forum that I've seen on the internet
[21:56] <Enceladus> Haha. I've nothing against any target device actually. I'm not one of these fanboys. I just use what I'm familiar with, and what works. Although I will confess a hatred for intel x86 programming. I was exposed to the horror of assembly programming on those devices, and scarred for life.
[21:56] <Enceladus> avrfreaks is a good website, agreed
[21:56] <edmoore> beyond me
[21:56] <edmoore> I'm hoping to never have to go there
[21:56] <Enceladus> Assembly or x86?
[21:57] <edmoore> i like optimisations from an algorithmic point of view, and also bit-hacks, but assembly tricks I can find a ittle intimidating
[21:57] <edmoore> both - assembly on x86
[21:57] <Enceladus> Oh, assembly. Well I think it's better to *start* with Assembly programming for Micros. It's good to have that knowledge. But to be honest... I rarely use Assembly. C is more than suitable with modern day compilers.
[21:58] <Enceladus> In fact, there are more advantages to using C than using Assembly in my opinion.
[21:58] <edmoore> the micro course i did as part of my degree was programming a 6800 with a hex numberpad
[21:59] <edmoore> there was something quite zen about writing it all out and debugging it on paper
[22:02] <earthshine> juxta: ping
[22:02] <Enceladus> My path was 6502 (nice processor), Z80 (great processor), then a brief exposure to the horrors of x86 before moving swiftly on to 68000 (fantastic processor). But I never did anything practical with any of them. I moved from there to PIC, and I've used PIC ever since.
[22:02] <edmoore> i do look with envy at some of the dspics
[22:02] <earthshine> I used to do assembly on the Z80 once - In a ZX81
[22:03] <earthshine> going back a long way
[22:03] <edmoore> but having played with both atmegas and pic16F8xx, I couldn't help but feel a little more comfortable problem solving with the atmega
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[22:04] <Enceladus> earthshine, I did a bit of BASIC on the Spectrum when I was a kid. I'd spend hours typing out a load of code, just to display an American flag or something like that. :)
[22:06] <Enceladus> good times :)
[22:06] <edmoore> lucky rocketboy isn't here to trump this reminisce session with stories of his pdp-11 days
[22:06] <earthshine> Yeah I did ZX81 and Spectrum
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> ""
[22:06] <earthshine> in fact I have several editions of Sinclair User in the loft with programs in that I got published in the magazine
[22:07] <Enceladus> edmoore, I've got quite a nice dev board for dspic. It's got a touchscreen VGA screen for me to play with, SD card slots, you name it. Can't wait to start playing with all that.
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> I'ARM is getting lots cheaper
[22:07] <edmoore> some excellent and exciting applications for that dsp functionality in ballooning
[22:07] <edmoore> especially with the radio
[22:07] <earthshine> I agree that ARM is the way to go
[22:07] <Enceladus> earthshine, I still have my old Spectrums. I have a +2 and also a 48K rubber key computer. They both still work too, even after all this time.
[22:07] <edmoore> yeah, I think i'll be sticking forever with arms now
[22:07] <earthshine> Have you guys checked out the mbed board ?
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/mini2440-S3C2440-ARM9-Board-3-5-TFT-LCD-Touch-Screen_W0QQitemZ190378704410QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET?hash=item2c53747e1a - say
[22:08] <edmoore> it's designed by a guy in camb I beleive
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[22:08] <edmoore> but have not used it - we're quite keen on from-scratch stuff here, for some reason. at least for anything that flies.
[22:08] <Enceladus> SpeedEvil, that's very nice. And cheap too.
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[22:09] <earthshine> yeah - it's good for development though
[22:09] <edmoore> yeah
[22:09] <Enceladus> I'd like to get into ARM I think.
[22:09] <edmoore> i bought an lpc2148 dev board from embedded artists as the basis for developing the badger1
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> In some ways it's nice to use processors you don't need to get into.
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> It just runs linux.
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[22:09] <Enceladus> edmoore, I am planning to do mine from scratch. That's half the fun.
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> You use the GPIO/SD/... drivers, and that's it
[22:09] <edmoore> gah, not linux
[22:10] <Randomskk> edmoore: you know these days the micro course is asm in emacs
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> No, not at the moment - there is a very signigicant price penalty.
[22:10] <natrium42> edmoore, *everything* runs linux
[22:10] <edmoore> lots of people used to come onto irc and say 'ok I've bought this atmega8 from rapid. how do I put the linux in?'
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> and power
[22:10] <natrium42> i mean, linux runs on everything
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[22:10] <SpeedEvil> however - in not too many years - atmega8 class CPUs will run linux
[22:11] <edmoore> Randomskk: you're missing out on the old dark ways
[22:11] <natrium42> there be dragons
[22:12] <edmoore> it was too simple for dragons really
[22:12] <edmoore> but the 6800 was cisc, which was a bit dragoney
[22:12] <natrium42> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons
[22:12] <earthshine> I have a Dragon 64 :)
[22:12] <earthshine> lol
[22:13] <earthshine> i have lots of retro computers - ZX81, Spectrum 48k, Spectrum +3, Dragon 64, Amiga
[22:13] <natrium42> oh, cool
[22:13] <Enceladus> earthshine, I am a HUGE Amiga fan.
[22:13] <edmoore> some commands were 5 cycles except on tuesdays when they were 4, unless you used immediate addressing in which case they were 3 cycles, but only if register's 0-3 weren't on strike that day, or it was a bank holiday. then it was 5 again, except 6 if addressing the adc, for no particular reason.
[22:14] <Randomskk> edmoore: definitely. also I used vim
[22:14] <Randomskk> the demonstrator was not pleased
[22:14] <natrium42> we should make a payload based on the commodore 64 or amiga
[22:14] <natrium42> for laughs and giggles
[22:14] <edmoore> who was the demonstrator?
[22:14] <Randomskk> but then jon and I finished the four week course in week one and got three lie-ins after that
[22:14] <earthshine> yeah the Amiga is awesome - even to this day - the OS is still suppoerted and being developed
[22:14] <Enceladus> earthshine, I know - I run it
[22:14] <Randomskk> edmoore: can't remember his name but he was about as enthusiastic as all the other EIETL demonstrators?
[22:14] <edmoore> doesn't narrow it down
[22:14] <edmoore> english?
[22:14] <earthshine> A Commodore 64 and car battery using an old brick style mobile phone for comms
[22:14] <Enceladus> Though not right now because my PPC card is giving me trouble :(
[22:14] <Randomskk> no
[22:15] <natrium42> earthshine, haha
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[22:15] <Randomskk> edmoore: it was a while ago, really can't remember much about him
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[22:15] <Randomskk> completed that lab as quickly as possible and got out of there :P
[22:15] <Randomskk> much like the computing one actually
[22:16] <rjharrison_eee> evening all
[22:16] <earthshine> evening
[22:16] <natrium42> edmoore, did you finish undergrad yet?
[22:16] <rjharrison_eee> jcoxon: got your message
[22:16] <Enceladus> Well if this guy can make a laptop out of one.... http://benheck.com/04-05-2009/commodore-64-original-hardware-laptop
[22:16] <Enceladus> Anything is possible
[22:16] <edmoore> natrium42: no
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[22:16] <rjharrison_eee> Will not be around Saturday but should be sunday
[22:16] <Randomskk> http://www-h.eng.cam.ac.uk/help/ahg/1AComputing/scores/scores_-1.html
[22:16] <Randomskk> etc
[22:17] <edmoore> oh by the way guys, CUSF would like to claim another HAB first:
[22:17] <rjharrison_eee> edmoore: go on
[22:17] <edmoore> the only chase-vehicle netbook that has also been into near-space
[22:17] <rjharrison_eee> lol
[22:17] <rjharrison_eee> sooner you than me
[22:17] <edmoore> http://cowtimes.blogspot.com/2009/04/ben-10-achieves-intergalatic-appeal.html
[22:17] <fsphil> hmm I've a few C64's here spare :)
[22:17] <natrium42> edmoore, bastard.
[22:17] <edmoore> found this one in a box and got it working again.
[22:17] <natrium42> :D
[22:18] <Randomskk> haha wow
[22:18] <earthshine> wtf
[22:18] <Randomskk> though those images all look sadly photoshopped
[22:18] <natrium42> you can see the pixels?
[22:18] <edmoore> they're honest to go genuine
[22:18] <Randomskk> also I have seen many shoops in my time
[22:18] <edmoore> god*
[22:18] <Randomskk> edmoore: I can imagine
[22:18] <natrium42> the shadows look all wrong
[22:18] <rjharrison_eee> lol
[22:19] <edmoore> that was almost a year ago to the day, nova 11
[22:19] <edmoore> the one that died on landing so we couldn't find it
[22:19] <rjharrison_eee> I agree with edmoore this is real
[22:19] <earthshine> surprised it worked at that temperature
[22:19] <edmoore> oh the laptop didn't
[22:19] <Randomskk> rjharrison_eee: oh, I don't for a moment believe it's fake
[22:19] <edmoore> it's a sticker
[22:19] <Randomskk> it just looks photoshopped
[22:19] <Randomskk> haha well
[22:19] <rjharrison_eee> yep smae with the sun launch
[22:19] <Enceladus> Bed time for me I'm afraid. Goodnight all.
[22:20] <rjharrison_eee> untill you see the video
[22:20] <Randomskk> Cambridge University Spaceflight's spokesperson, Rob Anderson, adds: "We jumped at the chance to get involved with this unique Ben 10 space mission and to showcase the new DVD to aliens out in space."
[22:20] <rjharrison_eee> scary
[22:21] <edmoore> it was a bit of a stress actually
[22:21] <edmoore> the things you do for money
[22:21] <rjharrison_eee> Don't aliens have better technology
[22:21] <rjharrison_eee> night Enceladus
[22:21] <rjharrison_eee> evening earthshine
[22:21] <fsphil> cya Enceladus
[22:22] <rjharrison_eee> jcoxon: you out there?
[22:22] <natrium42> edmoore, just don't sell your body
[22:22] <rjharrison_eee> Hehe
[22:22] <edmoore> i'm saving it
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[22:22] <rjharrison_eee> good
[22:22] <natrium42> good good
[22:22] <rjharrison_eee> esp. the shorts ... an ed signature
[22:23] <rjharrison_eee> natrium42: was that Ed in the yellow shorts with the antenna yesterday?
[22:23] <edmoore> ?
[22:23] <edmoore> link please
[22:24] <natrium42> roofl
[22:24] <rjharrison_eee> natrium42: Do you have the link or do I need to drag it out of the logs
[22:25] <edmoore> oh i know which one you are talkig about now
[22:25] <rjharrison_eee> lol
[22:25] <edmoore> i can confirm that that is not me
[22:25] <natrium42> rjharrison_eee, not handy
[22:25] <natrium42> i didn't bookmark it or anything
[22:25] <natrium42> :P
[22:25] <rjharrison_eee> tbh I can confirm it's not you either ed
[22:26] <rjharrison_eee> Bloody weird pic that
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[22:33] <natrium42> juxta in time
[22:33] <juxta> hey natrium42
[22:33] <natrium42> any launch plans? :)
[22:34] <juxta> hehe
[22:34] <juxta> nothing right now
[22:34] <juxta> probably in the week after next
[22:34] <natrium42> cool
[22:35] <juxta> going to the GP next week :)
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[22:38] <natrium42> GP?
[22:39] <juxta> what about you natrium42, when are you launching?
[22:40] <natrium42> after the end of term, at the end of april
[22:40] <fsphil> april's shaping up to be a busy month
[22:40] <juxta> ah righto
[22:40] <juxta> GP = grand prix
[22:41] <juxta> F1 :)
[22:41] <natrium42> ah
[22:44] <jcoxon> oops missed rob
[22:44] <jcoxon> back
[22:44] <natrium42> \o jcoxon
[22:45] <jcoxon> hey natrium42
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[22:47] <jcoxon> right, what questions do people frequently ask
[22:47] <jcoxon> am doing the wiki FAQs
[22:47] <natrium42> how is babby formed
[22:48] <jcoxon> no idea how babbys are formed :-p
[22:48] <natrium42> how is balon formed? :P
[22:48] <natrium42> no, but what level are you aiming at?
[22:49] <jcoxon> well Ed and I get quite a few emails asking simple questions
[22:49] <natrium42> hmm, i can check mine
[22:49] <jcoxon> so its really for beginners who are interested in ballooning
[22:49] <Randomskk> jcoxon: how do you track, why does the ntx2 say it only gets 500m, is it legal, what if I hit something, uh
[22:49] <Randomskk> troll the archive really
[22:49] <jcoxon> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:faq
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[22:50] <jcoxon> yeah was just going to add the ntx2 range one
[22:51] <jcoxon> don't know hte answer to the legal if i hit something one
[22:51] <jcoxon> best not go there :-p
[22:51] <Randomskk> yea
[22:51] <Randomskk> it is pretty unlikely
[22:51] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, which components (radio, programming,...) are involved in building a balloon
[22:51] <Randomskk> also pretty bad
[22:51] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, where to go for help (irc) :)
[22:51] <DanielRichman> **building a HAB payload
[22:51] <Randomskk> edmoore must have a list of these, he gets asked so many
[22:52] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, maybe in a folder named "Spam"
[22:52] <Randomskk> hah
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[22:56] <natrium42> - balloon design
[22:56] <natrium42> - mission parameters
[22:56] <natrium42> - payload acqusition (balloon, payload line, parachute, payload capsule, etc)
[22:56] <natrium42> - electronics acqusitions and assembly, software design & integration
[22:56] <natrium42> - liaison with regulatory authority
[22:56] <natrium42> - how many man-hours have gone into such projects
[22:56] <natrium42> - how much they cost
[22:56] <natrium42> - how far up do cellphones work
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[22:57] <jcoxon> hehe - i think its worth limiting the faqs as much of htat info is on the wiki
[22:57] <natrium42> true
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[23:06] <jcoxon> grrr crap internet
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[23:19] <jcoxon> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:faq
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[23:26] <jcoxon> night all
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[23:34] Nick change: grummund_ -> grummund
[23:34] <earthshine> Does anyone have the protocol documents for the ublox ?
[23:35] <DanielRichman> I was looking around for a few and dl'd anything I could find; but I haven't checked whether they apply to the FSA03 yet
[23:36] <earthshine> i see
[23:36] <DanielRichman> http://www.u-blox.com/en/download-center.html try searching for protocol
[23:36] <DanielRichman> although that might be a total red herring and I'm delusional
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[23:36] <DanielRichman> earthshine, if you're on linux there's a chm viewer program; one of those files is CHM but I believe there is also a PDF copy lying around
[23:37] <DanielRichman> *there's a chm viewer program for ubuntu atleast.
[23:37] <DanielRichman> I must go now, good luck
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[23:51] <earthshine> aha
[23:51] <earthshine> found it
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[23:59] Nick change: Tygrys^ -> Tiger^
[00:00] --- Fri Mar 19 2010