highaltitude.log.20100317

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[09:31] <earthshine> Morning
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[10:11] <earthshine> morning
[10:11] <earthshine> oh i've said that already
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[10:26] <juxta> hi all;
[10:28] <earthshine> hey
[10:34] <juxta> hey earthshine
[10:34] <juxta> it's still Mike, right?
[10:40] <Laurenceb> hi folks
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> hi
[10:42] <earthshine> juxta: Yep that's me
[10:42] <Laurenceb> http://hackaday.com/2010/03/15/3d-printing-on-a-much-larger-scale/
[10:42] <Laurenceb> ^ interesting
[10:42] Action: Laurenceb wonders if you could use a rapid hardening mortar mix
[10:43] <russss> there are already house-sized machines printing concrete I think
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> concrete is very weak in tension
[10:44] <Laurenceb> yeah, maybe add small polymer fibres
[10:45] <earthshine> lol have you seen this mouse? - http://hackaday.com/2010/03/09/will-this-mouse-get-me-kicked-out-of-the-coffee-shop/
[10:46] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: that doesn't help with strength, it reduces cracks a bit
[10:46] <SpeedEvil> you need steel fibres IIRC
[10:46] <SpeedEvil> earthshine: oldpost is old.
[10:48] <Laurenceb> yeah
[10:48] <Laurenceb> but its got to be useful for something...
[10:49] <Laurenceb> maybe add holes for steel tensioning rods
[10:49] <Laurenceb> - threaded bar
[10:50] <SpeedEvil> For sculptures, it's not too bad
[10:52] <Laurenceb> maybe mount a continuous inkjet on it
[10:53] <Laurenceb> squiritng water
[10:53] <SpeedEvil> you can colour concrete.
[10:53] <Laurenceb> not sure how they do it
[10:53] <SpeedEvil> you add pigment
[10:53] <SpeedEvil> And start out (typically) with white not grey cement
[10:54] <Laurenceb> ah snowcrete
[10:55] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[10:57] <SpeedEvil> There is the alternative of make a foam mould of course
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[11:04] <Laurenceb> continuous inkjets are pretty cool
[11:05] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:05] <SpeedEvil> you've seen the 3d sandstone colour printer?
[11:05] <Laurenceb> I didnt realise how many droplets per second you could get
[11:05] <Laurenceb> no
[11:06] <Laurenceb> bbl
[11:16] <SpeedEvil> Shapeways new printer. It is shiny.
[11:21] <russss> http://www.zcorp.com/en/Products/3D-Printers/ZPrinter-650/spage.aspx
[11:21] <russss> the material is weird though
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> IIRC that's the one, yes
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> the models are quite cheap
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.shapeways.com/materials/fullcolor
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> $0.99/cm^3
[11:24] <russss> their stainless steel/bronze is really impressive though
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:24] <russss> very detailed
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> Something that could print aligned glassfibre would be very cool
[11:41] <Laurenceb> powder bed is the only 3D printing technique I've seen that seems very practical
[11:42] <Laurenceb> the reprap thing just doesnt seem very feasible
[11:42] <Laurenceb> IMO
[11:42] <Laurenceb> lasers powerful enough to do powder sintering arent actually that exensive/hard to source
[11:43] <Laurenceb> farnell even
[11:44] <russss> it's a case of the material properties you want
[11:44] <russss> selective sintering isn't that strong
[11:44] <russss> wheras FDM (i.e. reprap) can actually be stronger
[11:44] <SpeedEvil> Or if you cheat.
[11:45] <SpeedEvil> Like hte stainless/bronze example
[11:45] <MoALTz> is it only solid rocket motors that cannot be made in the uk (without an expensive licence)?
[11:45] <Laurenceb> AIUI yes
[11:45] <SpeedEvil> MoALTz: as far as I understand, yes
[11:45] <Laurenceb> liquid is ok, just be sensible :P
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[11:45] <MoALTz> ah good
[11:45] <russss> UV-cured stereolithography is also quite cool, but complex to do
[11:45] <Laurenceb> firing a saturn 5 in your garden will get you into trouble
[11:45] <Laurenceb> :P
[11:46] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: noise pollution
[11:46] <Laurenceb> russss: yes but needs supports in some cases
[11:46] <Laurenceb> yeah, fire hazard etc
[11:46] <russss> heh
[11:46] <russss> in the end you still get the best fabrication results from subtractive processes
[11:47] <Laurenceb> Id like a laser sintering rig
[11:47] <Laurenceb> IIRC farnell have some laser diodes that would work
[11:47] <Laurenceb> for <£100
[11:47] <russss> really?
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> Are you thinking of hte pulsed diodes?
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> They don't do what you think they do
[11:48] <Laurenceb> yeah, some of them do tho...
[11:48] <Laurenceb> cant remeber now
[11:48] <SpeedEvil> pulsewidths of a microsecond or two max
[11:48] <Laurenceb> but yeah its slow, as you need to focus down a lot
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> And average power of under a milliwatt
[11:49] Action: Laurenceb looks again
[11:49] <russss> or just buy one of these and cannibalise it. http://hpclaser.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=5
[11:50] <SpeedEvil> reasonably powerful IR stuff (several watts) turns up on ebay occasionally
[11:51] <Laurenceb> http://hackaday.com/2010/03/15/3d-printing-on-a-much-larger-scale/
[11:51] <Laurenceb> 200mw could sinter if focused down
[11:51] <Laurenceb> but very slow for large volume
[11:54] <Laurenceb> aha - http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=6655189
[11:54] <Laurenceb> thats more like it
[11:54] <russss> nice
[11:54] <Laurenceb> that'll easily sinter
[11:56] <russss> they also do one at 808nm
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> there are similar ones on ebay often
[11:56] <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/808nm-1000mw-1W-burning-IR-laser-diode-USA-3-day-ship_W0QQitemZ270543825435QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efdab2a1b
[11:58] <russss> "This diode release powerful photon particles" (!)
[11:59] <MoALTz> hah
[12:02] <Laurenceb> particles/waves
[12:03] <MoALTz> & "powerful" when talking about IR
[12:03] <Laurenceb> pointing could be tricky... is some ways continuous inkjet is eaier to make
[12:03] <Laurenceb> the optic of scanning the beam are tricky... unles you move the entire laser
[12:03] <Laurenceb> *optics
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> that's the only sane way
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> (for DIY)
[12:07] <MoALTz> i wonder how quickly the beam intensity increases/decreases
[12:07] <Laurenceb> ooh its maximum is 3W continuous or 4W pulsed
[12:07] <Laurenceb> nice
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> http://www.arcraftplasma.com/welding/plasma-welding.htm
[12:07] <SpeedEvil> MoALTz: nanosecond
[12:10] <russss> Laurenceb: so just move the whole laser :P
[12:10] <russss> http://www.contraptor.org/
[12:10] <Laurenceb> laser - lens - \mirror
[12:10] <Laurenceb> target
[12:11] <Laurenceb> then oscillate mirror in horizontal plane
[12:11] <Laurenceb> without changing the angle
[12:11] <SpeedEvil> focal length issues though
[12:11] <MoALTz> move the target?
[12:11] <Laurenceb> not if it doesnt change angle
[12:11] <Laurenceb> oh hang on... doh
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> Unless you oscillate the mirror to create a slanted beam that hits at the same radius
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> segments of circle
[12:12] <Laurenceb> yeah...
[12:12] Action: Laurenceb draws some diagrams
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> which depends critically on flatness for positioning
[12:13] <Laurenceb> yeah that could work
[12:13] <Laurenceb> guess this is most useful for really high precision small stuff
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> speed is horribly important
[12:13] <Laurenceb> large work would take _ages_
[12:14] <Laurenceb> 2W to sinter any large volume is slow
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> 10 minutes a page isn't a problem.
[12:14] <SpeedEvil> If you need 1000 'pages' though
[12:14] <russss> layer :)
[12:14] <russss> and speed is "feedrate" in CNC parlance
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> I know
[12:16] <Laurenceb> its going to take an hour or two per cm^3
[12:16] <Laurenceb> for metals
[12:16] <Laurenceb> and 2W or so power
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if the above could be adapted.
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> (the plasma torch)
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> you'd need a He atmosphere i suspect
[12:17] <SpeedEvil> or similar
[12:17] <Laurenceb> yeah interesting
[12:18] <Laurenceb> prob more prctical for larger work
[12:18] <MoALTz> wouldn't argon be cheaper?
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> possibly
[12:18] <Laurenceb> laser would be good for a few cm^3 and _very_ high precision
[12:18] <Laurenceb> small parts etc
[12:18] <SpeedEvil> if warping isn't a problem
[12:19] <Laurenceb> and powder manipulation
[12:20] <Laurenceb> that seems to be the intrinsic problem - counterrotating roller works well, but if you want to go really fine and high res
[12:21] <Laurenceb> electrostatic may work but would need nonconductive powder
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> have you seen the phaser printer - paper
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> http://www.office.xerox.com/perl-bin/opb_product_popup.pl?product=8400&object=8400_solidink
[12:28] <Laurenceb> flash
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> Don't know how that would directly apply - just looked interesting
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> yes
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[13:09] <Laurenceb> hmm yeah plasma cutter based sintering looks promising
[13:15] <Laurenceb> I know - continuous inkjet dropping solvent onto a polymer powder bed
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[14:53] <SpeedEvil> http://www.vlf.it/zevs/zevs.htm
[14:53] <SpeedEvil> Clearly better than 433MHz! We should use 43.3Hz.
[15:01] <russss> that's interesting
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[15:10] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[15:10] <fsphil> hi hi
[15:11] <Lunar_Lander> atlantic conditions look better for March 19, 10 GMT
[15:12] <Lunar_Lander> it goes almost straight due east
[15:12] <Lunar_Lander> it could make it across in three days if the winds hold up
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[15:32] <earthshine_> afternoon
[15:36] Nick change: ms7821 -> LAZERTITS
[15:36] Nick change: LAZERTITS -> ms7821
[15:36] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[15:37] <earthshine_> hi
[15:42] <fsphil> meant to ask earlier earthshine , that gps module - does it have the artificial altitude limit?
[15:42] <russss> no it doesn't
[15:43] <earthshine_> nope
[15:43] <russss> although I think you have to switch it to airplane mode
[15:43] <earthshine_> it implements cocom correctly
[15:44] <fsphil> ah so it would need to hit both the speed and altitude limit before it stopped?
[15:44] <earthshine_> yep
[15:45] <earthshine_> hence it is ideal for HAB
[15:45] <earthshine_> plus only 9 grams
[15:45] <earthshine_> inc. aerial
[15:45] <fsphil> the weight is fantastic -- the module I have now is about 20 grams with aerial
[15:45] <fsphil> most of that is aerial
[15:45] <earthshine_> 50 channels too and mega fast lock
[15:47] <earthshine_> i'm looking forward to playing with them over the next 11 days
[15:47] <earthshine_> when i get my payload ready
[15:47] <fsphil> what sort of flight computer are you using?
[15:48] <earthshine_> my own
[15:48] <earthshine_> Will make a prototype PCB for flight 1
[15:49] <earthshine_> If it works well i'll get soem custom PCB's made
[15:51] <fsphil> nice - I haven't ventured as far as my own PCB's yet
[15:52] <fsphil> well, a very simple one and all thru-hole components
[15:52] <earthshine_> well that will do for a flight computer - they aren't complicated
[15:53] <Lunar_Lander> bbl
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[15:53] <fsphil> yep - though I'm tempted to try the surface mount version of the microcontroller
[15:53] <fsphil> it's a lot smaller
[15:54] <earthshine_> which MCU ?
[15:55] <fsphil> hmm...atmega644
[15:55] <earthshine_> are you using the Arduino bootloader?
[15:56] <fsphil> nah, just using plain C
[15:56] <earthshine_> ok
[15:56] <earthshine_> well if you're comfortable with soldering SMD components or have access to an oven then go for it
[15:56] <fsphil> neither :) I was to order a hot air gun last week but never got the time
[15:57] <fsphil> hoping that's all I need
[15:57] <earthshine_> can you solder with those? I thought they were for desoldering ?
[15:57] <fsphil> I think so - I watched a few videos of people doing it.
[15:58] <fsphil> they put solder paste on the pads, place the component then heat up the paste
[15:58] <earthshine_> hmm - interesting
[15:59] <russss> yeah they're quite good
[15:59] <fsphil> seems almost *too* easy :)
[15:59] <russss> still a fiddle
[16:02] <fsphil> doesn't look so bad for the ICs, but those little resistors and capacitors look like a right pain
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[18:16] <natrium42> hello sbasuita
[18:16] <sbasuita> o/ natrium42
[18:20] <natrium42> how are the winds?
[18:20] <sbasuita> natrium42, rubbish
[18:20] <natrium42> :(
[18:20] <sbasuita> :(
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[18:27] <natrium42> sbasuita, is there a deadline?
[18:27] <sbasuita> natrium42, no but it would be nice to get it launched asap since gcses are approaching
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[18:38] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:39] <sbasuita> good evening jcoxon
[18:40] <DanielRichman> natrium42, and ppl are getting mcbored :P
[18:40] Action: DanielRichman is building a slim jim
[18:41] <DanielRichman> 16SWG wire is tougher than I thought it'd b
[18:41] <DanielRichman> It arrived coiled around a wheelythingy... how to most effectively remove kinks in the wire?
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> What sort of wire
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> copper?
[18:42] <DanielRichman> tinned
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> Tie it to an object
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[18:43] <SpeedEvil> stretch by .1% or so
[18:44] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, sbasuita its about time you guys launched - we have contacts in most european countries - they'll collect it for you!
[18:44] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, I've wiretied it to the pvc tube that will form the body of the antenna
[18:45] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, are you saying that after time I can take off the wireties and it won't start deforming?
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> no
[18:45] <sbasuita> jcoxon, yeah but i want to catch it!
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> stretching it makes it even
[18:45] <DanielRichman> ok
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[19:15] <sbasuita> finally some sense in lucid ;P "Currently when installing packages in Ubuntu the download is a separate step from the unpack/configure. Ubuntu will be able to install package faster by doing downloads and installs in parallel."
[19:16] <Randomskk> hurrah
[19:16] <natrium42> :)
[19:16] <Randomskk> that's much more sensible
[19:16] <Randomskk> meanwhile I just got a new kodak printer and it's totally gay
[19:16] <natrium42> unlike the decision to move window buttons to the left
[19:16] <Randomskk> by 'gay' I mean 'doesn't want to work with linux at all'
[19:16] <Randomskk> 'despite supporting CUPS on mac'
[19:16] <Randomskk> also very annoyingly it printed a test page and nothing since
[19:16] <natrium42> inkjet?
[19:17] <Randomskk> yea
[19:17] <Randomskk> and scanner etc
[19:17] <Randomskk> one of these ones with separate printheads so the ink cartridges are very cheap
[19:17] <Randomskk> and generally looks like a fairly nice bit of kit and reasonable specs
[19:17] <Randomskk> various kodak people promising linux drivers since 08 and no sight of anything
[19:18] <Randomskk> except this sourceforge project for a similar printer, which was able to print that test page but hasn't printed anything since
[19:18] <natrium42> linux printing still sucks
[19:18] <natrium42> it's amazing actually that they can't get it fixed
[19:18] <Randomskk> eh
[19:18] <Randomskk> I haven't had issues before
[19:18] <Randomskk> my brother mono laser works very well
[19:18] <Randomskk> and I hear HP printers all work very well
[19:18] <natrium42> well, brother
[19:18] <Randomskk> hmmmm
[19:18] <natrium42> brother is cool, they make linux drivers
[19:19] <Randomskk> yea
[19:19] <Randomskk> but hmm, the issue I was getting is that this c2esp program is failing apparently, and it segfaults if I run it, but not if I run as root
[19:19] <Randomskk> weird
[19:19] <Randomskk> maybe I need to print as root
[19:19] <Randomskk> that would be stupid and annoying
[19:21] <DanielRichman> well cups runs as root, right? doesn't it need root privs for hardware access?
[19:21] <Randomskk> yea but for some reason it might be trying to run this c2esp program as not-root
[19:22] <Randomskk> ah, nope. trying to sudo lp a file still fails in the same way
[19:22] <Randomskk> still segfaulting by the looks of things
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[19:29] <sbasuita> Randomskk, perhaps connect it to an osx or windows computer and print over samba?
[19:30] LazyLeopard (~irc-clien@chocky.demon.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[19:30] <Randomskk> considering running virtual XP and samba
[19:30] <Randomskk> won't have an os x or windows pc at uni and would rather not connect it to one at home
[19:30] <Randomskk> virtual XP could take it as a USB device no problem and then print to it via samba
[19:31] <sbasuita> Randomskk, it's a last resort ;)
[19:31] <sbasuita> what is this i don't even http://www.hellotux.com/Buy_Linux_Thong.php
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[19:38] <rjharrison> evening all
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> Evening.
[19:39] <rjharrison> Doing two talks on hab tomorrw to alevel physics students at local school
[19:39] <rjharrison> :)
[19:40] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:41] <Randomskk> hmm it seems I can print a page
[19:41] <Randomskk> but the printer never realises it's actually printed
[19:41] <Randomskk> and so never moves to the second page
[19:41] <rjharrison> hehe good for uni credits
[19:41] <Randomskk> I can cancel the job and print a new page
[19:42] <rjharrison> jcoxon do you think it will be ok to clear down the horus data on spacenearus
[19:45] <jcoxon> rjharrison, sure no problem
[19:47] <Randomskk> hmmmm it now works occasionally
[19:47] <Randomskk> this is very annoying
[19:49] <jcoxon> Randomskk, hackaday?
[19:50] <Randomskk> jcoxon: yea
[19:50] <Randomskk> well jonsowma1 anyway
[19:50] <Randomskk> but I still get a name in, so +1 hackaday points :P
[19:51] <jcoxon> ferret going to fly again?
[19:51] <Randomskk> apparently it got posted back
[19:51] <Randomskk> but I haven't seen it
[19:51] <Randomskk> hopefully at any rate
[19:52] <Randomskk> we're working on a new tracker along the same lines, e.g. very minimalist
[19:52] <Randomskk> literally gps, radio, microcontroller
[19:52] <jcoxon> hehe without lat/lon bug
[19:52] <Randomskk> badgercub style but without the pyros most likely, and probably 2xAA battery clip built into the pcb then heatshrink the entire thing
[19:52] <Randomskk> as lightweight and small as possible as a backup/primary radio tracker but not as a flight computer
[19:53] <jcoxon> hehe the fabled blackbox - tis a sort after design that often never materialises
[19:53] <jcoxon> ask ed about it :-)
[19:53] <rjharrison> Randomskk I'd pay for one of thouse
[19:53] <rjharrison> a beacon
[19:53] <Randomskk> jcoxon: we can start to see why, all sorts of issues
[19:53] <Randomskk> like radio
[19:53] <rjharrison> :)
[19:53] <rjharrison> c111111
[19:53] <Randomskk> technically you can't really fly those TI radios
[19:53] <Randomskk> not licensed for license-excempt bands
[19:53] <rjharrison> :)
[19:54] <Randomskk> so if we made a product using them, we'd still have to get it certified
[19:54] <jcoxon> Randomskk, also they slowly gain features
[19:54] <Randomskk> which costs far too much to be worth it
[19:54] <Randomskk> jcoxon: that one is easier to keep in check
[19:54] <jcoxon> oh i reckon its the toughest, just one more temp sensor...
[19:55] <Randomskk> :P
[19:55] <Randomskk> so basically atm it looks like the ntx2s are the best for it, but they are big and expensive
[19:55] <jcoxon> perhaps the chance for a 'kit'
[19:55] <Randomskk> we'd much rather use one of TI's radios
[19:55] <Randomskk> bloody ofcom
[19:55] <jcoxon> hmmm at ?13 they aren't too bad being certified and all
[19:56] <jcoxon> though they aren't tiny
[19:56] <Randomskk> even then I don't think they really count since the antenna is supplied by the customer
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> How much is certification?
[19:56] <Randomskk> the full "module" for certification should include the antenna
[19:57] <sbasuita> Randomskk, just include a cheap whip?
[19:57] <Randomskk> sbasuita: that's not the issue so much as putting an antenna in changes licensing status
[19:57] <Randomskk> sbasuita: besides the antenna on ferret cost a few pence and consisted of normal hookup wire and four sainsburys value drinking straws
[19:57] <Randomskk> and some electrical tape to hold it together
[19:58] <jcoxon> Randomskk, well keep on working on it! its certainly useful especially as you can just through it on
[19:58] <Randomskk> that's the idea
[19:58] <jcoxon> trow*
[19:58] <jcoxon> throw*
[19:58] <Randomskk> same reason it runs on AAs
[19:58] <Randomskk> pick them up anywhere
[19:58] <Randomskk> ideally two AA lithiums ofc
[19:59] <jcoxon> Randomskk, what gps?
[19:59] <Randomskk> considering the fsa03
[19:59] <Randomskk> small and nice and easy to solder onto the thing
[19:59] <jcoxon> agreed
[19:59] <Randomskk> most of the other GPSs are a pita to connect to your board
[19:59] <jcoxon> not worth fighting with a sirf III even though they are super on the ground
[19:59] <Randomskk> need proprietory connectors or cables or whatever
[20:00] <Randomskk> fsa03s a little expensive but ntb and a local supplier :P
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[20:02] <jcoxon> hehe
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[20:12] <sbasuita> How would one go about "broadcasting on all frequencies"? Or is this just a hollywood myth?
[20:12] <russss> hah
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> largely bull.
[20:13] <Randomskk> well
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> You can broadcast on all channels of a medium simultaneously
[20:13] <Randomskk> the main thing is that there are an infinite number of frequencies
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> for example, generate carriers at all AM frequencies, and then mix them with an incoming audio
[20:13] <Randomskk> and also that they are all continuous
[20:13] <LazyLeopard> Guess you could use a monster spark...
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> but this only works for discrete channels
[20:14] <sbasuita> hmm, i guess broadcasting on every channel would be good enough
[20:14] <Randomskk> the other thing you can do is feed a sawtooth wave into your VFO
[20:14] <Randomskk> it'l only transmit one frequency at once
[20:14] <Randomskk> but rapidly moves through a range
[20:15] <Randomskk> e.g. you could do that for, say, 434 to 435MHz
[20:15] <Randomskk> move fast enough and you'll effectively block any signal in that range
[20:15] Action: DanielRichman prefers <LazyLeopard> "monster spark"
[20:15] <Randomskk> equally transmitting, say, white noise with a massive modulation width over FM
[20:16] <Hiena> It should be one hell of VFO.
[20:16] <Randomskk> also your antenna is only going to be matched to some frequencies
[20:16] <sbasuita> just thinking about how one would go about this practically
[20:16] <sbasuita> you know, for the revolution
[20:16] <Randomskk> sbasuita: well for "all" frequencies it's impossible
[20:16] <Hiena> Imeans for a simple audio transmission, you should use at least 200kHz for the modulation.
[20:16] <Randomskk> for "all GSM frequencies" it's perfectly possible
[20:16] <Randomskk> or, rather
[20:17] <sbasuita> Randomskk, yeah, that's what i meant
[20:17] <Randomskk> it's possible to transmit on enough frequencies that it will block GSM phones
[20:17] <Randomskk> obviously that's massively illegal
[20:17] <Randomskk> http://www.ladyada.net/make/wavebubble/
[20:17] <DanielRichman> You could DDOS the spectrum using a few 100 synchronised hams
[20:17] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, isn't GSM the only frequency that it's illegal to listen to in the UK?
[20:17] <Randomskk> can't remember
[20:17] <Randomskk> I don't think it really works like that but rather it's illegal to intercept various messages
[20:18] <Randomskk> GSM is encrypted anyway but unfortunately with A5/1 which is broken now
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> http://ossmann.blogspot.com/2010/03/16-pocket-spectrum-analyzer.html
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> also.
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> For fun.
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2010/02/13/#20100213-six_weeks_to_bcch
[20:18] <SpeedEvil> on that subject - GSM hacking
[20:18] Action: Randomskk was at 26c3
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[20:19] <Randomskk> and in particular that talk
[20:19] Action: SpeedEvil was not.
[20:20] <Randomskk> ha, that im-me spectrum analyser is fun
[20:20] <Randomskk> I still want to make one of those wavebubbles sometime
[20:20] <SpeedEvil> wavebubbles?
[20:20] <Randomskk> http://www.ladyada.net/make/wavebubble/
[20:20] <sbasuita> SpeedEvil, rf jammer
[20:20] <Randomskk> 800mhz/2.4ghz jammer
[20:20] <Randomskk> also 1.5mhz
[20:20] <Randomskk> so gps, gsm, wifi, bluetooth, etc
[20:21] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/search.dx/search.jammer
[20:21] <Randomskk> not as fun
[20:21] <Randomskk> and often not as functional
[20:21] <jcoxon> Randomskk, right stuck your hackaday bit on the wiki's news
[20:21] <Randomskk> sweet
[20:21] <jcoxon> as we haven't had new news in a while
[20:21] <sbasuita> does the jammer use white noise? or is there something more disrupting?
[20:21] <DanielRichman> how legal is the publishing of the design of wavebubble?
[20:21] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: publishing design, legal
[20:22] <DanielRichman> how legal is building one?
[20:22] <Randomskk> selling kits, illegal
[20:22] <Randomskk> owning in the UK, illegal
[20:22] <Randomskk> using in the UK, illegal
[20:22] <DanielRichman> hmm the components are sold in a kit
[20:22] <Randomskk> no they're not
[20:22] <Randomskk> ...are they?
[20:22] <Randomskk> don't think they are
[20:22] <DanielRichman> Oh right, my misread
[20:22] <Randomskk> sbasuita: it just transmits a strong signal that sweeps over the band
[20:22] <DanielRichman> Total cost should be ~$25 for PCBs and $100 for parts (if you sample chips) or $135 (buy all parts & use a nice lithium ion battery).
[20:22] <DanielRichman> I thought that "buy all parts" implied kit
[20:23] <Randomskk> sbasuita: sawtooth wave into a VFO that modulates the baseband frequency
[20:23] <jcoxon> stick one on a balloon, jam out half the country...
[20:23] <Randomskk> a PLL sets it to bottom of the band, so around 868
[20:23] <Randomskk> then sawtooth wave as signal input so the transmit frequency rapidly goes up to the top of the band then back to the bottom again
[20:23] <DanielRichman> Is the copper wire straight enough on this (2m) antenna? Not finished nor tuned.
[20:23] <DanielRichman> http://www.danielrichman.co.uk/images/random/2010-03/slim_jim-{1,2,3}.jpg
[20:24] <Randomskk> means any receiver will see a very strong signal for at least a part of its integration time on all frequencies
[20:24] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, and enjoy a visit from the police
[20:24] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, note: bash notation doesn't work in firefox
[20:24] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, doubt it
[20:24] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, you'd be fine
[20:24] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, and probs the MOD
[20:24] <Randomskk> usually sufficient to block out any legit incoming signal, especially of lower power
[20:24] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, yes it does. ALT+F2, type "firefox http://...{,,}"
[20:24] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, though that's not firefox doing the expanding
[20:24] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, btw that wire doesn't look very straight to me
[20:24] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, surely you can do better
[20:25] <Randomskk> yea but it is probably straight enough tbh
[20:25] <Randomskk> it's wire
[20:25] <DanielRichman> cool, that's what I wanted to hear
[20:25] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, straightening that stuff is a pita
[20:25] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, use a nut
[20:25] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, to pull it tight
[20:25] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, I could take it into school, properly clamp it and gogogo
[20:25] <sbasuita> oops
[20:25] <sbasuita> not a nut
[20:26] <sbasuita> the screwy bit
[20:26] <sbasuita> ;P
[20:26] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, clamp & pliars
[20:26] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, if you stretch it a bit it apparently stays straight
[20:26] <Randomskk> ugh bloody printer, it will apparently reliably do a single page now though image quality is disappointing
[20:26] <Randomskk> but not two pages in a row
[20:26] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, but then I'll get mcweird looks on the bus, yet *again*
[20:26] <Randomskk> have to print documents page at a time
[20:26] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: you think you get weird looks
[20:26] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, really?
[20:27] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, it's only a bit of pipe
[20:27] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, nah wasn't that bad on the bus 'cause the ppl know me. Was bad in the middle of the trains tation waiting for someone
[20:27] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, heh
[20:27] <Randomskk> I walked from engineering through the centre of town then through sainsburys then back to college with the fantastic pink and yellow straw antenna sticking out of my bag
[20:27] <DanielRichman> :D
[20:27] Action: Randomskk blames jonsowma1
[20:27] <DanielRichman> how big though?
[20:27] <jcoxon> arrgh - i hate the way os x downloads the updates behine the scenes
[20:27] <jcoxon> i'm on terrible internet
[20:27] <Randomskk> 17cm on four radials and then another 17cm driven sticking out
[20:27] <sbasuita> jcoxon, there's an app for that ;)
[20:27] <Randomskk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/randomskk/4413279333/ DanielRichman
[20:28] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, ah so not a 2m x 40mm pipe
[20:28] <jcoxon> does it throttle steve jobs?
[20:28] <Randomskk> admittedly no
[20:28] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, what's the app on the laptop?
[20:28] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: irssi
[20:28] <Randomskk> and the tracker in firefox in the background I think
[20:28] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, ah, ok
[20:29] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, I'd have to bring it in next week anyway
[20:29] <jcoxon> haha take that software update.app
[20:29] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, got to go for the original size mate
[20:29] <sbasuita> DanielRichman, http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4413279333_fc2c3f320c_o.jpg
[20:29] <fsphil> well it seems someone on hackaday likes the mactenna :)
[20:29] <DanielRichman> sbasuita, oshit I can read it
[20:29] <DanielRichman> foxyproxy?
[20:30] <Randomskk> correct
[20:31] <fsphil> ah, ubuntu on the lenovo -- how well does it run? (not sure who's laptop that is?)
[20:31] <Randomskk> my laptop
[20:31] <Randomskk> runs really nicely
[20:31] <DanielRichman> "<DanielRichman> how legal is building one?" Randomskk how about in the US?
[20:31] <Randomskk> works with all the hardware no problems
[20:32] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: I believe owning one might be legal if you don't do anything with it, maybe, but I think the FCC can still probably confiscate it or something
[20:32] <Randomskk> can't remember for sure
[20:32] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, then how can ladyada be sure that it even works?
[20:32] <DanielRichman> special license to jam?
[20:32] <Randomskk> presumably she has in fact tested it illegaly
[20:33] <Randomskk> tsk tsk
[20:33] <Randomskk> apparently she is too cool to fear the feds
[20:34] Nick change: Jos -> jos
[20:34] <Randomskk> and/or tested it briefly and then hasn't used it in anger and thus no one can prove she ever tested it
[20:34] <DanielRichman> however: "Wave Bubble was developed under support by EYEBEAM during my R&D fellowship at the Open Lab, thanks!"
[20:34] <Randomskk> doesn't mean that made it legal
[20:34] <DanielRichman> surely the "Open Lab" would never let her start doing illegal stuff and then sticking their name on it
[20:34] <Randomskk> eyebeam are awesome though
[20:34] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: it's existence is a statement
[20:35] <Randomskk> it doesn't need to be operating
[20:35] <DanielRichman> heh
[20:35] <Randomskk> its*
[20:35] <rjharrison> whats a good chat client for mac jcoxon
[20:35] <Randomskk> I hear excellent things about colloquy http://colloquy.info/
[20:35] <Randomskk> not that I'm jcoxon
[20:35] <Randomskk> or use a mac
[20:36] <rjharrison> thanks Randomskk
[20:36] <jcoxon> rjharrison, i use xchat-aqua
[20:36] <jcoxon> colloquy is a bit too fancy for me
[20:36] <ms7821> irssi
[20:36] <rjharrison> xchat free?
[20:37] <jcoxon> xchat-aqua with black background and green text
[20:37] <jcoxon> was last time i looked
[20:37] <rjharrison> hehe that was cool
[20:37] <Randomskk> irssi++ tbh
[20:37] <rjharrison> eeebuntu 4 is out in beta
[20:37] <Randomskk> I run irssi on a server and ssh to it
[20:38] <rjharrison> Looking forward to the release
[20:38] <Randomskk> have done that from a mac, from windows, from linux, from my phone, etc etc
[20:38] <Randomskk> doesn't really matter so long as the platform has an xterm-compliant console and ssh
[20:38] <Randomskk> and then it's exactly the same program on all of them, with the same unified logs and networks and channels and always connected etc etc
[20:38] <rjharrison> Randomskk that's too hard core for me
[20:38] <fsphil> weechat is a pretty cute console client too
[20:38] <fsphil> simpler than irssi
[20:38] <jcoxon> bbl
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[20:39] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, guess what: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ladyada/126612542/
[20:40] <sbasuita> that's just foolish
[20:42] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: she is pretty cool though
[20:45] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: that's from a commercial clocker
[20:45] <Randomskk> blocker*
[20:45] <Randomskk> check out hers http://www.flickr.com/photos/ladyada/303363763/in/set-72057594103963559/
[20:49] <rjharrison> how easy is avr spi
[20:49] <rjharrison> say compared to tty uart
[20:52] <Randomskk> fairly easy
[20:52] <Randomskk> but a bit harder
[20:52] <rjharrison> ok cool :)
[20:52] m0tek (~836f0142@gateway/web/freenode/x-xfwrlsbeldcmneer) joined #highaltitude.
[20:53] <rjharrison> the man himself
[20:53] <rjharrison> eveing ed
[20:53] <rjharrison> n
[20:55] <m0tek> ears burning?
[20:55] <rjharrison> hehe
[20:56] <rjharrison> I'm doing a talk on hab to A'level students tomorrow
[20:56] <m0tek> ah cool
[20:56] <rjharrison> and the local rag is coming around in the morning for some copy
[20:56] <rjharrison> :)
[20:57] Action: Randomskk returning printer for something that works
[20:58] <rjharrison> how does one go aout installing on a mac
[20:58] <rjharrison> I have the install drive thing up
[20:58] <DanielRichman> drag and drop!
[20:58] <rjharrison> humm
[20:58] <rjharrison> ok
[20:58] <Randomskk> yea, for some crazy reason the process is "drag the picture of the app into the apps folder"
[20:58] <Randomskk> makes total sense and is obviously very intuitive
[20:58] <m0tek> if anyone gets kst working o a mac, please let me know
[20:58] <fsphil> lol
[20:59] <fsphil> Why do most apps come as a disk image on the mac? don't they believe in zip files?
[20:59] <Randomskk> lol this motherboard http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/03/3-17-10-classifiedsr2-600.jpg
[21:00] <Randomskk> fsphil: for some equally crazy reason that's just the standard
[21:00] <m0tek> looks perfect for my dual xeon extravaganza
[21:00] <Randomskk> that motherboard'l take 2x 6-core HT CPUs
[21:00] <Randomskk> = 24 threads
[21:00] <Randomskk> 48GB RAM and 4-way SLI
[21:00] <rjharrison> humm wtf is the # key on the mac
[21:00] <fsphil> now that's a machine
[21:01] Action: fsphil feels your pain, rjharrison
[21:01] Action: rjharrison is feeling it too unfortunatly
[21:01] <m0tek> lt+3 rjharrison
[21:01] <m0tek> alt+3*
[21:01] <rjharrison> obv really
[21:01] <fsphil> they swapped the " and @ keys too, US-style
[21:02] <rjharrison> !
[21:02] <m0tek> dunno then
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[21:02] <rjharrison> m0tek it worked
[21:03] <fsphil> I do like my mac, my only big complaint is the way the mouse moves. it's too slow, then it's too fast. very weird
[21:03] <Randomskk> fsphil: you mean it's always the perfect speed for the job
[21:03] <fsphil> Randomskk, always the opposite speed I want it at :)
[21:03] <fsphil> it feels .. heavy
[21:03] <Randomskk> the problem is that you want it at the wrong speed ;P
[21:04] <fsphil> ah, so it's me then lol
[21:04] <m0tek> you don't need a mouse to use a computer
[21:04] <m0tek> well, vim at least
[21:04] <m0tek> which is all you need on a computer
[21:04] <fsphil> years of windows and linux and amiga use have taught me the wrong way to use a mouse *g*
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[21:04] <Randomskk> fsphil: at least now your re-education can begin
[21:05] <fsphil> haha
[21:05] Action: rjharrison loves vi
[21:05] <fsphil> my mac's are multiplying actually -- I picked up an old ibook last week
[21:05] <fsphil> with OS 9.2 :)
[21:05] <rjharrison> but I have used it for 15 years
[21:05] <rjharrison> Bit of a bugger to start off with
[21:05] <fsphil> yea, me and vi didn't mix for a long time
[21:06] <fsphil> we get on better these days .. much less swearing
[21:07] Action: Randomskk <3 vim
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[21:07] <rjharrison_mac> cool
[21:07] <Randomskk> the only thing I would like is to have a shell open in one split
[21:07] <rjharrison_mac> automated that
[21:07] <Randomskk> for some reason it doesn't want to do that
[21:08] <Randomskk> but just having a second xterm open works fine, as does ^z backgrounding
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[21:11] <Enceladus> Good evening everyone
[21:12] <fsphil> hi Enceladus
[21:12] <fsphil> how's Titan?
[21:12] <Enceladus> This is my first time here. There's a lot more people here than I thought there'd be!
[21:13] <Enceladus> Titan is doing good. Cold. ;-)
[21:13] <fsphil> lol good good (sorry -couldn't resist)
[21:13] <fsphil> yea it's pretty busy in here at times
[21:13] <fsphil> esp. during a launch
[21:13] <Enceladus> haha that's okay, I was wondering whether anyone would catch on to the meaning of the nick.
[21:14] <Enceladus> Well, I first thought about launching a High Altitude project back in the Winter. I did some research and discovered I am not the first person to think of this - loads of people have already conducted successful launches!
[21:15] <m0tek> Enceladus: we've grown a lot recently! times are good
[21:15] Action: N900evil_ has shrunk.
[21:15] <m0tek> Enceladus: excellent, it's a good thing to do.
[21:15] <N900evil_> diet--
[21:15] <Enceladus> I got pointed in the direction of this channel by James Coxon who's had lots of successful launches here in the UK
[21:16] <m0tek> you're in the UK too
[21:16] <m0tek> hack space?
[21:16] <Enceladus> Yes indeed
[21:16] <Enceladus> I don't know his nick
[21:16] <m0tek> jcoxon
[21:16] <Enceladus> I spoke to him by email
[21:16] <m0tek> not too hard to spot :)
[21:16] <Enceladus> That's him yes
[21:16] <m0tek> where abouts are you based?
[21:16] <Enceladus> Near Cardiff, South Wales
[21:17] <m0tek> excellent location from a jetstream point of view
[21:18] <Enceladus> Aha, I've been wondering about the jetstream. But why is South Wales a good location? I presume you'd want to avoid the jetstream, else find your balloon has landed in the sea?
[21:18] <m0tek> the jetstream goes (usually) west to east
[21:18] <Enceladus> The UK is not a good country from that point of view
[21:18] <m0tek> so you buy yourself as much of great britain as possible to land in, the further the west you start
[21:19] <m0tek> sbasuita, DanielRichman : http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/hourly-predictions/
[21:19] <m0tek> fail.
[21:19] <Enceladus> I was hoping to avoid the jetstream altogether, by choosing a launch date when the stream is further North?
[21:19] <sbasuita> m0tek, yeah we noticed thank you :|
[21:20] <DanielRichman> m0tek, :)
[21:20] <m0tek> Enceladus: the fast winds are almost always there, wether they're 50 of 200mph makes not much difference.
[21:20] <Enceladus> I see.
[21:20] <m0tek> but yes, there are times of the year when it's generally a lot calmer
[21:20] <rjharrison> like soon hopefully
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[21:21] <m0tek> yep
[21:21] <sbasuita> this sound is win http://ericarcher.net/2010/03/08/vocal-synth-appearing-soon/
[21:21] Nick change: LazyLeopard -> m6lep
[21:21] <m0tek> rjharrison_mac: your pm worked, I was just somewhere else
[21:21] <m0tek> it seems to be national callsign day
[21:21] <rjharrison> i'm ready to launch icarus III on it's maiden voyage
[21:21] <rjharrison> m0tek thanks
[21:21] <m0tek> well... I've just been attaching some SMA connectors to GPS antennas. not as exciting.
[21:21] <Enceladus> rjharrison, do you have a website?
[21:22] <rjharrison> www.robertharrison.org/icarus
[21:22] <Enceladus> Thanks I'll check that out.
[21:22] <rjharrison> the launch sections are the best for pics
[21:22] <fsphil> epic photo there rjharrison
[21:22] <DanielRichman> Daniel Richman: Alex, sbasuita claims you've agreed to call off the 21st for real
[21:22] <DanielRichman> Alex Breton: no; Alex Breton: that's false
[21:22] <DanielRichman> Daniel Richman: Have you seen the predictor?
[21:22] <sbasuita> what the
[21:22] <m0tek> er
[21:23] <rjharrison> fsphil thanks
[21:23] <Randomskk> haha the predictions are getting worse and worse
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[21:23] <Randomskk> at least before you made it to the netherlands
[21:23] <Randomskk> now it's just into the sea for the entire week
[21:23] <Enceladus> That is a fantastic picture on the front page!
[21:23] <DanielRichman> :D
[21:23] <sbasuita> yeah that picture is probably the best i've seen
[21:23] <m0tek> Enceladus: do you have any particular goal you'd like to acieve with a high altitude flight? (cool pictures are a very noble and valid goal)
[21:23] <natrium42> o/
[21:23] <natrium42> hey ed
[21:23] <m0tek> hi natrium42
[21:24] <natrium42> all well?
[21:24] <m0tek> not bad. in our new lab
[21:24] <natrium42> is it nice?
[21:24] <m0tek> just been prepping some antennas and other faffing
[21:24] <m0tek> yeah it's not bad
[21:24] <Enceladus> m0tek, pictures are a must, but also I want to do some experiments as well. Haven't decided on them all yet, but temperature, humidity, pressure come immediately to mind
[21:24] <m0tek> more space than the last one, but basement so no gps
[21:24] <natrium42> hmm, speaking of antennas
[21:24] <natrium42> do you recommend any yagi?
[21:24] <natrium42> 7 elements or so
[21:24] <m0tek> tonna 9-el
[21:25] <m0tek> i think both CUSF and rjharrison use it
[21:25] <Enceladus> One thing that would be really cool, yet probably impossible to do cheaply, would be to measure a time dilation for the flight!
[21:25] <m0tek> i wonder if GPS gives you enough accuracy for that. probably not
[21:25] <natrium42> m0tek, it looks huge though
[21:25] <m0tek> it's 9-els long :)
[21:25] <Enceladus> Nah you'd be talking nano-seconds I'd guess
[21:26] <Randomskk> natrium42: you can make one really easily
[21:26] <m0tek> actually it doesn't quite fit across the parcel shelf of my car, which is annoying
[21:26] <fsphil> I've a diamond 10-el yagi -- pretty nice, though I've yet to actually test it properly
[21:26] <natrium42> m0tek, you carry it around or is it stationary?
[21:26] <m0tek> we use it mobile and on the track-atron
[21:26] <m0tek> natrium42: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/4082160869/
[21:27] <natrium42> oh, that looks different to the pictures i have been finding
[21:27] <natrium42> where did you buy it?
[21:27] <m0tek> radioworld or something. generic ham shop
[21:28] <rjharrison> natrium42 i'm doing a talk at school tomorrow can I clear down space near us and use the tracker for some playground testing
[21:28] <natrium42> Randomskk, i would need to order cables and connectors anyway -- perhaps antenna is not much more $$
[21:28] <natrium42> rjharrison, oh sure, don't think juxta needs it anymore
[21:28] <Enceladus> rjharrison, do you retrieve your pictures during the flight or do you store them on the payload and get them after a (hopefully) successful landing?
[21:28] <m6lep> m0tek: What breed of rotator's that?
[21:28] <m0tek> alpha spid
[21:29] <rjharrison> Enceladus I have to get the camera back
[21:29] Action: natrium42 checks http://radioworld.ca
[21:29] <m0tek> it follows the balloons through the sky automatically via the lastpos.php on rjharrison's website and its own gps
[21:29] <rjharrison> Bandwidth is not really up to 3megapixel dloads
[21:29] <Enceladus> I guessed so. Picture info is probably a lot of data to try and transmit
[21:30] <fsphil> Enceladus, I'll be attempted to transmit some small jpeg's next time (320x240)
[21:30] <Enceladus> Though it would be good if you could transmit a picture or two, so that loss of the payload is not the end of the world
[21:30] <rjharrison> Yep jcoxon has done sstv but it's only 300x200
[21:30] <natrium42> lol, wtf --> http://members.home.nl/pa7dw/docs/jos%20on%20the%20roof2.JPG
[21:30] <m0tek> it's going to be really, really hard to send pictures down of any quality
[21:30] <m0tek> you have to be careful in this hobby
[21:31] <rjharrison> natrium42 lol
[21:31] <natrium42> rjharrison, you should use that in your presentation XD
[21:31] <fsphil> the images my camera makes are about 5k -- might take about 3 or four minutes to transmit
[21:32] <fsphil> if it works at all :)
[21:32] <rjharrison> fsphil that should be doable
[21:33] <fsphil> that's what i thought rjharrison. I'm using reed-solomon FEC to make it a bit sturdier, fairly slow baud rate. might be alright
[21:33] <m0tek> fsphil: that's presumably compressed - what sort of image size and quality does that yeild?
[21:33] <m0tek> fsphil: an RS library might go down pretty well...
[21:33] <fsphil> image quality isn't great, hold on I'll upload a couple of test shots
[21:33] <DanielRichman> compressed data = not very resilient to any corruptions?
[21:33] <DanielRichman> how do you extract the images from the camera and into the mcu?
[21:33] <m0tek> hrm, not really
[21:34] <fsphil> m0tek: I brutalised the library from here: http://www.ka9q.net/code/fec/
[21:34] <m0tek> DanielRichman: you can compress an image but quite a lot but still retain 99% of the original data, but then add redundancy more cleverly (with your FEC) and get a system that is overall a lot more efficient
[21:34] <fsphil> DanielRichman, the camera sends the data via rs232.
[21:35] <natrium42> m0tek, what about http://radioworld.ca/product_info.php?cPath=73_191_195&products_id=879
[21:35] <rjharrison> fsphil pic would be most excellent
[21:35] <DanielRichman> ok, cool
[21:35] <Randomskk> m0tek: did ferret turn up?
[21:35] <Enceladus> What sorts of cameras do you guys use? Ideally I guess you want one that can be controlled by an Microcontroller
[21:36] <m0tek> Randomskk: yep, have it here
[21:36] <Randomskk> Enceladus: a lot of canon cameras can have the CHDK firmware installed that will let a micro control them
[21:36] <russss> Enceladus: most people use slightly old Canon point+shoots
[21:36] <Randomskk> m0tek: sweet
[21:36] <m0tek> Enceladus: Canon Powershot A560 + CHDK firmware here
[21:36] <Enceladus> I see, cool.
[21:36] <m0tek> Enceladus: the quality is decent. http://www.nivnac.co.uk/files/HAPSD_NOVA8/HAPS-D_pan1_quarter.jpg
[21:37] <fsphil> http://www.sanslogic.co.uk/files/test3.jpeg <-- 320x240 test shot
[21:37] <Enceladus> m0tek, WOW.
[21:37] <russss> Enceladus: it goes without saying that wasn't downlinked ;)
[21:37] <Enceladus> Indeed :)
[21:37] <m0tek> indeed not.
[21:38] <russss> presumably there's some kind of theoretical upper limit on the downlink bandwidth
[21:38] <Enceladus> Do you guys have problem with the payload spinning? Photos would be pretty hard with a spinning payload. But all of the pictures I've seen are pretty good
[21:38] <m0tek> russss: Shannon!
[21:38] <m0tek> the man is my god
[21:38] <fsphil> the camera itself: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9334
[21:38] <rjharrison> Enceladus http://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/4340514598/sizes/l/
[21:38] <sbasuita> Enceladus, well earth is pretty bright, so you can use quick shutters
[21:38] <russss> oh yeah, that guy.
[21:38] <Enceladus> Thanks fsphil, I'll add that to my bookmarks.
[21:39] <rjharrison> There is a larger size too you can clearly see the aircraft con trail over the wash
[21:39] <Enceladus> sbasuita, ah okay I see
[21:39] <fsphil> My payload is a backup, so I'm limited by weight -- this camera is like a feather
[21:39] <Enceladus> rjharrison, fantastic picture
[21:39] <Randomskk> fsphil: when/where're you launching?
[21:40] <m0tek> Enceladus: this is from a payload of ours a bit back - you can see the rates are quite low - it's very gentle up there: http://www.vimeo.com/1626665
[21:40] <rjharrison> fsphil nice pic
[21:40] <fsphil> Randomskk, somewhere in N.Ireland towards the end of April I believe.
[21:40] <Randomskk> cool
[21:40] <fsphil> It's ProjectCirrus's launch, I'm not sure the exact details have been finalised yet
[21:41] <Enceladus> m0tek, that's fantastic. The more of these pictures/videos I see the more convinced I am that I absolutely *must* do this myself
[21:41] <fsphil> I know that feeling, Enceladus :)
[21:41] <rjharrison> Enceladus Thanks, I have a trick up my sleave for the next launch which may improve the images
[21:42] <Enceladus> How likely is it that a UK based launch will end up in the Sea?
[21:42] <fsphil> what I like about HAB'ing is it mixes most of the stuff I like - computers, electronics and radios and even a bit of science
[21:42] <m0tek> Enceladus: piece of string
[21:42] <russss> Enceladus: depends how carefully you chose your launch
[21:42] <Enceladus> Oh I'd choose it very carefully, make no mistake about that
[21:42] <m0tek> we have built a flight predictor : cuspaceflight.co.uk/predict
[21:42] <russss> if you're careful and use cutdown you can be fairly careful.
[21:42] <m0tek> plug your numbers in and see where it lands
[21:42] <rjharrison> Using the cusf predictor you should be ok
[21:42] <russss> accurate
[21:42] <Enceladus> flight predictor? No way.
[21:42] <Enceladus> <<<off to check that out
[21:42] <russss> oh yes.
[21:43] <fsphil> way lol
[21:43] <m0tek> try it with the defaults
[21:43] <rjharrison> The hourly is most cool too
[21:43] <m0tek> you can download the KML file to view in 3d in google earth too
[21:43] <fsphil> brb, mutt's bed time
[21:43] <Enceladus> it takes account of winds too? Including the jetstream?
[21:44] <m0tek> it wouldn't be much good if it didn't!
[21:44] <Enceladus> I guess not but that's very impressive
[21:44] <m0tek> it uses the GFS wind data from the US to integrate the balloon path through the sky at different times and altitudes
[21:44] <Enceladus> Okay, this is going on my bookmarks as well.
[21:44] <natrium42> :)
[21:45] <rjharrison> Then there is the tracker to track the balloon flight in real time
[21:45] <rjharrison> this is natrium42's work
[21:45] <m0tek> and rjharrison's, though he'd be too modest to say so
[21:45] <sbasuita> well the main feature is that its distributed; it combines data from multiple listeners sent over the internet
[21:46] <natrium42> m0tek, this one? http://www.radioworld.co.uk/~radio/catalog/20909-tonna-70cm-440mhz-yagi-p-2321.html
[21:46] <rjharrison> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[21:46] <rjharrison> natrium42 yep
[21:46] <m0tek> natrium42: yep, that's the one
[21:47] <natrium42> hrm, how2get it to canada
[21:47] <Enceladus> rjharrison, fantastic. You recieve NMEA strings from the payload, strip out the bits you need and upload it to the site somehow?
[21:47] <m0tek> dlfldigi!
[21:47] <m0tek> Enceladus: I'd brew a pot of coffee if I were you
[21:48] <sbasuita> Enceladus, listeners use http://code.google.com/p/dl-fldigi/
[21:48] <Enceladus> Well I've already written some software to deal with NMEA strings so I'm up to speed on that much :)
[21:48] <sbasuita> Enceladus, which decodes the rtty and uploads it to the site
[21:48] <m0tek> it's a sound-card modem that decodes the output from the radio, looks for the telemetry strings and uploads them to the tracker
[21:48] <sbasuita> Enceladus, (it's a modified version of fldigi)
[21:48] <m0tek> it's free and cross-platform
[21:48] <natrium42> oh, they do ship to canada
[21:48] <Enceladus> sbasuita, thanks. Another bookmark.
[21:49] <rjharrison> Simply CUSF predicts ----> Jcoxon and I provide the capture and logging service and natrium42 plots the data onto google maps
[21:49] <natrium42> CUSF predictor is also integrated into the tracker now, so you get landing predictions as you track the balloon
[21:49] <m0tek> Enceladus: this link contains a lot of what we've already mentioned
[21:49] <m0tek> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
[21:49] <Enceladus> Wow. More info. Thanks!
[21:50] <m0tek> and it has a picture of me on it, which i had not noticed until now. great.
[21:50] <Randomskk> hab pictures always bring out the best of you huh
[21:50] <Enceladus> Has anyone ever had a mishap with regard to payloads coming down on roads or anything like that? It sounds more plausible than it actually is, I suppose...
[21:50] <m0tek> yep, i'm almost always tired and wet and beardy during hab launches. lovely.
[21:51] <rjharrison> Enceladus there are a few stories
[21:51] <m0tek> Enceladus: the surface area of east anglia (where we launch) is about 99.999% fields, and that's not an exaggeration
[21:51] <natrium42> Enceladus, mine landed on a road once
[21:51] <Enceladus> That would be an absolute worst nightmare
[21:51] <rjharrison> there is a risk but common sense should keep things to a mimum
[21:51] <natrium42> some guy saw it land and called the number on it
[21:51] <m0tek> so it's very improbable. but we just make the payloads as small and light and soft as possible and just try and use common sense
[21:51] <natrium42> good thing too, since the tracker was borked...
[21:52] <natrium42> but yeah, better to avoid cities/towns
[21:52] <Randomskk> and airports!
[21:52] <Randomskk> try to avoid airports
[21:52] <Enceladus> You plan all this based on the flight predictor?
[21:52] <m0tek> yes
[21:52] <Randomskk> it's quite good
[21:52] <Enceladus> And there was me thinking it'd be a case of hope for the best
[21:53] <m0tek> and tweak ascent rates and so on to keep it all safe
[21:53] <Randomskk> m0tek: have you seen the exciting new ascent rate calculator?
[21:53] <m0tek> yes, it's pretty
[21:53] <Randomskk> also somewhat hilarious error accumulation when going for a big target ascent rate
[21:54] <Randomskk> but oh well
[21:54] <russss> we overflew Heathrow once.
[21:54] Nick change: m6lep -> LazyLeopard
[21:54] <sbasuita> russss, what altitude?
[21:54] <russss> high.
[21:54] <russss> (that was BH4)
[21:54] <Enceladus> Right I need to head off for the evening. Thanks everyone for the information you've given me - brilliant.
[21:54] <m0tek> good luck Enceladus, see you soon
[21:55] <russss> it would be nice to be able to call up old flights on the tracker :)
[21:55] <m0tek> i am actually late for some st patrick's day 'studying' too
[21:56] <Enceladus> Cheers all, g'night
[21:56] <rjharrison> russ you can do that
[21:56] <rjharrison> well on my version
[21:56] <russss> ah cool
[21:56] <m0tek> russss: there's a list of kml's for previous flights on the ukhas page
[21:57] <m0tek> and on our wiki for our flights
[21:57] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/tracker/map.php?height=1200&mission_id=100
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[22:00] <DanielRichman> hmm, chdk on slashdot
[22:00] <russss> chdk seems to cross most of the social news sites once every 6-12 months it seems
[22:00] <Laurenceb> hi
[22:00] <m0tek> hold up
[22:00] <m0tek> this isn't just chdk
[22:01] <russss> true
[22:01] <m0tek> this is quite a bit more impressive
[22:01] <russss> computer vision
[22:01] <Laurenceb> m0tek: do you have mounting holes on badger 2? what diameter?
[22:01] <m0tek> no body expects the spanish inquisition!
[22:01] <m0tek> er... let me check. but why!?
[22:02] <m0tek> i'm pretty sure i made them 3.2mm
[22:02] Action: Laurenceb is wondering how useful they are
[22:02] <Laurenceb> designing an auutopilot board atm
[22:02] <m0tek> they're useful for some things
[22:02] <m0tek> like mounting
[22:02] <rjharrison> lol
[22:02] <Laurenceb> lol
[22:02] <Laurenceb> and wasting board area
[22:03] <m0tek> right, st patrick's time
[22:03] <Laurenceb> I might stick on some for M2
[22:03] <m0tek> see y'all later
[22:03] <Laurenceb> bye
[22:03] <rjharrison> nights
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[22:18] <fsphil> anyone know the difference between Full Swing and a Low Power Crystal Oscillator?
[22:18] <Randomskk> you want full swing almost certainly
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[22:19] <fsphil> thanks - the avr datasheet doesn't explain it well at all
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[22:38] <fsphil> that did the trick
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[22:51] Hiena (~Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) left irc: Quit: -=Got bored from the net. Gone blowing up things.=-
[23:00] <natrium42> hey juxta
[23:00] <juxta> morning natrium42
[23:00] <juxta> how's things?
[23:01] <natrium42> good, looking at yagi antennas for 70cm
[23:01] <natrium42> how are you?
[23:01] <juxta> well rested, I spent the last few days camping on an island near here :)
[23:02] <natrium42> new zeeland? :P
[23:02] <juxta> haha
[23:02] <juxta> not quite
[23:02] <juxta> Kangaroo Island
[23:03] <juxta> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Z7TpGzwx94LRH95hDMptmg
[23:04] <juxta> are you making a yagi natrium42?
[23:04] <natrium42> nice
[23:04] <juxta> or buying one?
[23:04] <natrium42> don't know yet
[23:04] <natrium42> it costs around $150 to get it delivered
[23:05] <natrium42> i mean, antenna + shipping from UK
[23:05] <juxta> ouch
[23:05] <juxta> make one :D
[23:05] <Randomskk> making one is so easy
[23:05] <natrium42> i guess i need to take a trip to the hw store
[23:05] <natrium42> and see if they have anything
[23:05] <juxta> yeah, there are a million and one ways to make it
[23:05] <natrium42> ordering all the parts will cost as much as a ready-made antenna
[23:06] <natrium42> so they better be available locally
[23:06] <Randomskk> you buy the parts locally
[23:06] <juxta> all you need is a bit of pvc pips and some brass rod
[23:06] <Randomskk> yea
[23:06] <juxta> or steel rod
[23:06] <Randomskk> or anything metal
[23:06] <Randomskk> angle pieces etc
[23:06] <natrium42> the nearest radio store is in toronto
[23:06] <natrium42> 100km away
[23:06] <juxta> no need for a radio store ;p
[23:06] <Randomskk> not radio store, just hardware store
[23:06] <Randomskk> local home diy place
[23:06] <natrium42> juxta, what about coax?
[23:06] <natrium42> and connectors?
[23:06] <juxta> the only radio-ish thing you'll need is the coax, yeah
[23:07] <juxta> and the UFH/N type connectors
[23:07] <juxta> but you could pick that up online, couldnt you?
[23:07] <natrium42> i have some very high quality coax, but it's very thick
[23:07] <natrium42> almost unbendable...
[23:07] <juxta> RG-213 or something?
[23:08] <juxta> I used RG-58 cable, I think thats what most people use here
[23:08] <juxta> you could use RG-8 or RG-213, but it's thick & expensive
[23:08] <natrium42> LMR-400 is what i have
[23:08] <Randomskk> 213 is nice and low loss
[23:09] <fsphil> I think RG-58 is fine unless your running cable over a good distance
[23:09] <natrium42> from Times Microwave
[23:09] <Randomskk> yea, I used 58 on my antenna
[23:09] <Randomskk> cusf use 213 or something though, very thick
[23:09] <natrium42> and how do i match it?
[23:09] <Randomskk> you just buy 50 ohm coax
[23:09] <juxta> just a 1/2 wave balun
[23:10] <Randomskk> right, yea.
[23:10] <Randomskk> well
[23:10] <natrium42> LMR-400 is 1" minimum bend radius
[23:10] <Randomskk> or similar, depending on whether you fold the dipole
[23:10] <juxta> that's fine
[23:10] <juxta> natrium42: there's a good pdf, 2 secs
[23:10] <juxta> http://www.wa5vjb.com/yagi-pdf/cheapyagi.pdf
[23:11] <juxta> all you need is a bit of wood, and some brass rod or thick copper wire
[23:11] <Randomskk> or pvc piping or whatever
[23:11] <juxta> i wouldnt bother with the copper wire though, it's more expensive and isn't stiff enough for my liking
[23:11] <Randomskk> you can also use metal booms if needed, just tweak numbers a bit
[23:11] <juxta> yeah, or PVC
[23:11] <juxta> yeah, there are some good calculators
[23:12] <juxta> natrium42: http://www.k7mem.150m.com/Electronic_Notebook/antennas/yagi_vhf.html
[23:12] <natrium42> hrm
[23:12] <natrium42> Randomskk, or drinking straws! :P
[23:12] <Randomskk> quite
[23:12] <natrium42> juxta, looks easy thanks
[23:12] <Randomskk> you could probably make a half decent yagi with just some normal single core wire inside drinking straws for the elements
[23:12] <natrium42> okay, i will take a trip to the hw store
[23:13] <juxta> yeah you could
[23:13] <juxta> natrium42, hold up
[23:13] <Randomskk> heck you can make a yagi by pritt sticking foil cutouts onto cardboard
[23:13] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil has done so iirc
[23:13] <juxta> www.bogaurd.net/yagi433.jpg
[23:13] G8DSU (~chatzilla@cpc3-mort4-0-0-cust192.croy.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #highaltitude.
[23:13] <juxta> does that work?
[23:13] Action: natrium42 duct tapes wires to cardboard
[23:14] <juxta> easiest yagi ever, very easy to make, you can use anything really
[23:14] <juxta> wires on cardboard would work just fine, hehe
[23:14] <SpeedEvil> juxta: yes, it worked well
[23:15] <SpeedEvil> juxta: I forget the dimensions - but a couple of cornflake packets worked for TV
[23:15] <juxta> haha
[23:15] <juxta> I've seen them on PCB before
[23:15] <juxta> http://technolab-inc.com/EBAY/Supra_wave_2.jpg
[23:15] <juxta> like that
[23:15] <Randomskk> I've seen that without the coax
[23:15] <Randomskk> just PCB traces and an SMA socket
[23:15] <Randomskk> that one appears to have elements on the other side of the board too though
[23:15] <Randomskk> not sure how that works out
[23:16] <Randomskk> too close to be stacking
[23:16] <Randomskk> oh, it's just the other side of each element.
[23:16] <SpeedEvil> lower impedence?
[23:16] <Randomskk> that's a bit weird then
[23:16] <Randomskk> also those elements are getting much much shorter very quicker
[23:16] <Randomskk> quickly*
[23:16] <Randomskk> presumably 2.4ghz for wifi
[23:16] <Randomskk> but even then the end elements are tiny tiny
[23:16] <natrium42> guys, i don't really want to get tooo getto with it :P
[23:16] <juxta> haha
[23:17] <Randomskk> natrium42: did you see my one?
[23:17] <natrium42> not sure, url?
[23:17] <Randomskk> the elements are all 6mm aluminium
[23:17] <Randomskk> which is nice because
[23:17] <Randomskk> we can embed it into the ground (vertical polarisation)
[23:17] <Randomskk> and just leave it
[23:17] <juxta> dont buy one natrium42, you'll be surpirsed at how easy it is to make one and get it right, even just using junk
[23:17] <Randomskk> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4397651539_e36c421481_o.jpg
[23:18] <Randomskk> PVC tube boom
[23:18] <Randomskk> used that to form the aluminium bend too
[23:18] <juxta> complete with heavy duty ballooning footwear ;)
[23:18] <natrium42> nice
[23:18] <Randomskk> epoxy holds elements in place
[23:18] <Randomskk> hacksawed the ally to size
[23:18] <Randomskk> juxta: haha yes
[23:18] <Randomskk> that's not me
[23:18] <juxta> is that jonsowman?
[23:19] <Randomskk> quite possibly
[23:19] <Randomskk> he doesn't like this photo for some reason though
[23:19] <natrium42> Randomskk, are you at CU?
[23:19] <Randomskk> yes
[23:19] <Randomskk> well
[23:19] <Randomskk> not atm
[23:19] <Randomskk> at home right now
[23:20] <Randomskk> but generally yes
[23:20] <natrium42> ah, undergrad?
[23:20] <Randomskk> yup
[23:20] <Randomskk> first year engineering
[23:20] <natrium42> coolz
[23:20] <Randomskk> same as jonsowman, we're actually in the same college
[23:20] <natrium42> new blood for CUSF :)
[23:20] <Randomskk> yea :P
[23:22] edmoore (~836f0142@gateway/web/freenode/x-fcwxyoaagaoejhjt) joined #highaltitude.
[23:29] <DanielRichman> Hmm. Reading amateur radio club wants: Exam Fee £27.50, Intermediate Manual £5.00, Admin and Tuition, £29.50. Project Kit£10.00; Total £72.00.
[23:29] <DanielRichman> I think I'll just read the book.
[23:29] <Randomskk> admin and tuition is loads
[23:29] <juxta> DanielRichman: my license cost me $280 or something
[23:29] <DanielRichman> indeed
[23:30] <DanielRichman> juxta, wow, how much of that was tuition etc. or is all of that to the gvmt?
[23:30] <Randomskk> I paid £20 for foundation, £25 for intermediate, £30 for advanced
[23:30] <Randomskk> total
[23:30] <DanielRichman> yeah that sounds like a plan
[23:30] <edmoore> same (obv)
[23:30] <Randomskk> CU Wireless Soc knock £2.50 off the exam fee and charge nothing for manual, admin, project kit, etc
[23:31] <juxta> $69.95 for my foundations license exam, $69.95 for standard exam, $69.95 for regulations exam, $69.95 for practical exam
[23:31] <edmoore> there was no project kit for us
[23:31] <DanielRichman> I'll ask radarc if I can just take the exam then
[23:31] <Randomskk> edmoore: same, I just showed him my arm breakout board
[23:31] <DanielRichman> hah
[23:31] <edmoore> i think i showed him badger 1
[23:31] <DanielRichman> I can probably find some project kit on the shelf to my right
[23:31] <juxta> so it was all exam costs DanielRichman, no tuition costs
[23:31] <DanielRichman> juxta, wow
[23:31] <Randomskk> edmoore: to be fair it was even transmitting CW
[23:31] <edmoore> lol
[23:31] <DanielRichman> juxta, unlucky then, I guess. Price you pay for all that lovely weather
[23:31] <juxta> I could have done it without foundations I suppose
[23:32] <juxta> yes indeed
[23:32] <juxta> I'll accept that though, I camped on beautiful beaches for the last few days :)
[23:33] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, edmoore, so you don't have to actually "build" something, just show the guy something you have built?
[23:34] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: it's "flexible"
[23:34] <edmoore> to prove you can solder
[23:34] <Randomskk> yea basically
[23:34] <DanielRichman> great!
[23:34] <Randomskk> edmoore: which made mine a bit awkward seeing as it was reflowed
[23:34] <edmoore> lol
[23:34] <Randomskk> I got away on the basis that I hand soldered the 0.1" headers
[23:34] <DanielRichman> :P
[23:39] <fsphil> hmpf, my foundation course is costing me £55 :(
[23:39] <edmoore> god lord
[23:39] <edmoore> o*
[23:40] <Randomskk> makes me realise how good the cuws offer is
[23:40] <fsphil> not including transport costs (I'm nowhere near a club)
[23:40] <Randomskk> though I guess cuws don't really do tuition, just loan you the book
[23:40] <Randomskk> otoh I do then pay to join cuws, but that's £20 for life so...
[23:41] <edmoore> i think the CUWS thing is partly because everyone going for it is doing a science or engineering degree, so they sort of just try and whizz you through without insulting you with ohms law.
[23:41] <Randomskk> and includes use of the cuws shack whenever, which has 400w of everything on a nice rotatable multiband yagi
[23:41] <Randomskk> edmoore: apparently martin once had to explain ohm's law to a guy doing classics
[23:41] <edmoore> makes you weep
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[23:45] <fsphil> bah, too tired -- pluged in atmega wrong way round. need sleep. g'night all!
[23:45] fsphil (~phil@2001:470:1f09:483:21f:c6ff:fe44:b25b) left irc: Quit: Big Boom!
[00:00] --- Thu Mar 18 2010