highaltitude.log.20100315

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[01:57] <Randomskk> aww pants
[01:57] <Randomskk> the maths to find the launch diameter from a target ascent rate results in a cubic
[01:58] <Randomskk> that's really annoying
[01:58] <Randomskk> I wonder which root is the sensible one to use.
[01:58] <Randomskk> I hope there's only one real one or something.
[01:58] <Randomskk> oh great two of them are complex
[01:59] <Randomskk> but multiplied by a cube root which is probably itself going to end up complex
[01:59] <Randomskk> I don't think javascript can do complex numbers very easily
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[02:34] <Randomskk> natrium42: around?
[02:34] <natrium42> yo
[02:34] <Randomskk> so you know burst1a.xls?
[02:34] <natrium42> yes
[02:34] <Randomskk> so I'm trying to get it such that one types in a desired ascent rate and it gives out the launch diameter (or free lift, which is readily findable from that diameter)
[02:35] <Randomskk> I followed the maths through but it's a yucky cubic
[02:35] <Randomskk> theoretically this could still be calculated but doing so in javascript or a spreadsheet will be painful and also it gives three potential solutions, of which presumably only one will be sensible
[02:35] <Randomskk> http://github.com/randomskk/cusf-burst-calc/raw/master/calcs_latex/launch_diameter_from_ascent_rate.pdf is aforementioned maths
[02:35] <natrium42> cool
[02:36] <Randomskk> http://github.com/randomskk/cusf-burst-calc/raw/master/original_flow.png is a graph of how the current spreadsheet works things out
[02:36] <Randomskk> but having launch diameter as an input parameter seems silly
[02:36] <Randomskk> that's hardly a design specification
[02:36] <Randomskk> I want to have either burst altitude or ascent rate as inputs
[02:37] <Randomskk> from which it should be possible to calculate launch diameter, from which the other of the two can be found and outputted along with the resulting time to burst and free lift (since we use this to work out how much to fill the balloon)
[02:37] <Randomskk> (well I guess we use gross lift but either way)
[02:38] <Randomskk> there are general solutions for the roots of cubics but as I said they are nasty and involve complex numbers
[02:39] <natrium42> there's some code for javascript that does it
[02:39] <Randomskk> does complex numbers?
[02:40] <natrium42> yes
[02:40] <Randomskk> I guess the easiest way would be a cubic solver in javascript and just plug that in
[02:40] <natrium42> for example http://www.freewebs.com/brianjs/ultimateequationsolver.htm
[02:40] <Randomskk> could probably solve it some other way like newton raphson too
[02:40] <Randomskk> perfect
[02:40] <Randomskk> hopefully only one answer will be real
[02:40] <Randomskk> I would feel a bit bad saying it has to have a complex launch diameter
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[02:41] <natrium42> one real and two conjugate roots
[02:41] <Randomskk> "1.3 + 0.6i meters diameter at launch"
[02:41] <Randomskk> "huh"
[02:41] <natrium42> rofl
[02:41] <Randomskk> are there ever three real roots though?
[02:41] <Randomskk> well, there are sometimes
[02:41] <Randomskk> the question is whether the numbers we will be putting in can give rise to three real roots
[02:42] <Randomskk> if so there are three possibile launch diameters, that could be an issue
[02:42] <Randomskk> I guess put a sanity check on, diameter between 0.5 and 3.5 meters or so
[02:42] <Randomskk> well I guess that will work nicely
[02:42] <Randomskk> thanks!
[02:43] <MoALTz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_function#The_nature_of_the_roots
[02:44] <Randomskk> even better
[02:44] <Randomskk> also http://www.1728.com/cubic2.htm runs through methods for each case
[02:44] <Randomskk> no need to do any complex calculations then
[02:44] <Randomskk> perfect
[02:46] <natrium42> :)
[02:47] <Randomskk> any other things I should bear in mind for making a javascript version of this spreadsheet?
[02:47] <Randomskk> the plan right now is to input balloon mass, payload mass, and either ascent rate or burst altitude, then output either ascent rate or burst altitude, time to burst and gross lift
[02:48] <Randomskk> with constants available to be edited if desired including gas density
[02:48] <natrium42> that would be cool
[02:48] <Randomskk> and intermediate stages presumably shown as they are calculated
[02:48] <Randomskk> hopefully with a page design that shows the flow of the thing
[04:10] <Randomskk> mockup https://randomskk.net/u/bc/calc.html
[04:11] <Randomskk> (nonfunctional)
[04:11] <Randomskk> maths is down pat too though, just JS left
[04:11] <Randomskk> but it's 0411 so I'm off to sleep
[04:15] Action: natrium42 votes for a drop-down list for gas density
[04:16] Action: Randomskk concedes
[04:16] <Randomskk> is it worth trying to make it a drop down or also customisable?
[04:16] <Randomskk> or solely a dropdown?
[04:18] <natrium42> you can always customize using firebug!
[04:18] <natrium42> :)
[04:18] <Randomskk> true
[04:18] <Randomskk> perhaps a gas dropdown
[04:18] <Randomskk> and when one is selected, the gas density field updates
[04:18] <Randomskk> but you could just update it manually
[04:19] <natrium42> sounds good
[04:21] <natrium42> helium, hydrogen and methane would be the choices
[04:21] <natrium42> dunno if anything else would be usable
[04:22] <Randomskk> updated https://randomskk.net/u/bc/calc.html
[04:24] <natrium42> looking good
[04:25] <natrium42> so if anybody decides to mix those gases, they can use the custom selection
[04:25] <Randomskk> tidied up the burst diameter and Cd parts too
[04:25] <Randomskk> do you think that's as clear as having the "Use Custom?" text?
[04:25] <Randomskk> a different balloon mass will change those values
[04:25] <Randomskk> and then hit the tick box to just type your own in
[04:26] <Randomskk> entering a balloon mass that's not on the look up table will presumably result in the boxes going ticked and disabled so you have to enter a value
[04:26] <natrium42> it's clear enough IMO
[04:26] <Randomskk> cool
[04:26] <natrium42> few people will be messing with those
[04:26] <Randomskk> looks better like this
[04:28] <Randomskk> okay
[04:28] <Randomskk> I think that's okay for the mockup for now
[04:28] <Randomskk> the javascript is gonna be fun
[04:28] <Randomskk> I guess it should just come down to some gigantic equations though, so it's all good.
[04:28] <Randomskk> sleep now, seeya
[04:29] <natrium42> gnite
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[05:06] Nick change: jos -> Jos
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[09:35] <MikeMc68_> Hello
[09:35] Nick change: MikeMc68_ -> earthshine_
[09:36] <SpeedEvil> hello
[09:36] <earthshine_> what did I miss over the weekend? I was camping in East Sussex
[09:37] <SpeedEvil> very little.
[09:37] <earthshine_> Good
[09:37] <earthshine_> I thought there might have been a launch
[09:37] <earthshine_> weather was pants though
[09:37] <SpeedEvil> nope.
[09:37] <SpeedEvil> Predictions for most people were going in the drink.
[09:38] <earthshine_> Yeah
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[10:12] <russss> so...what's the best place to get helium? (We're building an autonomous blimp)
[10:13] <SpeedEvil> The sun.
[10:13] <SpeedEvil> Lots of it there, free for the uplift.
[10:13] <russss> true
[10:13] <SpeedEvil> How big a blimp?
[10:13] Nick change: Laurenceb -> leyroy_jenkins
[10:13] <SpeedEvil> The wiki has a list of prices.
[10:13] <russss> indoor-sized
[10:13] <russss> I thought it did
[10:14] <russss> but I couldn't find it
[10:15] <SpeedEvil> A link was posted a couple of days back
[10:16] <russss> it could just be that the search sucks
[10:16] <russss> ah http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:balloon_data#helium_cylinder_data
[10:17] <russss> wow. I should get into the helium resale business.
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> that too
[10:17] <SpeedEvil> All you need is a big van, and some binbags.
[10:17] <russss> heh
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[11:01] <jonsowman> oh yes
[11:01] <jonsowman> earthshine: ping
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[11:31] <Laurenceb> sup folks
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[11:53] <earthshine_> morning
[11:54] <SpeedEvil> morning
[11:54] <earthshine_> can anyone answer - when ordering from RocketBoy - how quickly do you get your order?
[11:58] <jonsowman> hi earthshine_
[11:58] <jonsowman> did you get my PM?
[12:00] <earthshine_> nope
[12:00] <jonsowman> oh, perhaps because i sent it to earthshine not earthshine_
[12:00] <earthshine_> :D
[12:00] <jonsowman> anyway no matter - basically do you still have a WRT54GL you want to get rid of?
[12:00] <earthshine_> hmm
[12:01] <earthshine_> not sure - will have to check when i get home
[12:01] <jonsowman> the ebay seller sent me a GS, when it was listed as a GL
[12:01] <earthshine_> gave a load of stuff away recently but can't remember what
[12:01] <jonsowman> so i've returned it, but I still need a GL
[12:01] <earthshine_> if i've still got it you can have it
[12:01] <jonsowman> ah right ok
[12:01] <jonsowman> how much would you like for it?
[12:01] <earthshine_> nothing
[12:01] <earthshine_> you can have it
[12:01] <jonsowman> really? are you sure?
[12:02] <jonsowman> i'll pay postage at the very least, but I'm happy to pay you for the thing itself too
[12:03] <earthshine_> Do you got to Hackspace ?
[12:03] <jonsowman> no i don't, sorry
[12:03] <jonsowman> im in southampton until next tuesday anyway
[12:03] <earthshine_> Well - cover the P&P costs then that will do
[12:04] <jonsowman> if you're absolutely sure
[12:04] <jonsowman> that's very kind of you
[12:04] <earthshine_> yep - that's if I still have it of course
[12:04] <jonsowman> yep
[12:04] <jonsowman> well if you could let me know that'd be great
[12:04] <jonsowman> just PM me on here
[12:04] <earthshine_> sure - i'll check later when I get home
[12:05] <jonsowman> thanks very much :D
[12:05] <earthshine_> i've got a Fonero too
[12:05] <jonsowman> much appreciated
[12:05] <earthshine_> not sure if that is any good to you?
[12:06] <jonsowman> i really need the WRT54 series unfortunately
[12:06] <jonsowman> the GL is perfect, and some versions of the G and GS are OK too
[12:06] <jonsowman> typically, the GS the ebay seller sent me is not one of the good ones
[12:06] <earthshine_> k i'll look later
[12:06] <jonsowman> thanks again :)
[12:12] Action: Laurenceb has gone for JST connectors
[12:12] <Laurenceb> rather than Deans - as its has to be board mounted
[12:13] <Laurenceb> there are some interesting locking molex connectors that look a bit more reliable...
[12:14] <Laurenceb> if the same thing SF use... not sure if thats good or bad
[12:35] <earthshine_> so........
[12:35] <earthshine_> can anyone asnwer my question re: Ricketboy's orders?
[12:35] <earthshine_> when ordering from RocketBoy - how quickly do you get your order?
[12:35] <earthshine_> Rocket*
[12:53] <Laurenceb> dunno - email him
[12:53] <Laurenceb> I'd guess a few days - he might be busy at work but hes very reliable
[13:05] <earthshine_> k
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[13:53] <earthshine_> afternoon
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[14:30] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[14:32] <earthshine_> hey
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[16:00] <earthshine> howdy
[16:00] <edmoore> afternoon
[16:01] <Randomskk> edmoore: I'm working on a js version of the burst1a thing
[16:02] <Randomskk> html mockup is https://randomskk.net/u/bc/calc.html
[16:02] <Randomskk> any thoughts?
[16:02] <Randomskk> also I don't think gross lift is really what we want, perhaps "ballast lift" or such - the mass that will give it neutral buoyancy?
[16:03] <Randomskk> given as gross lift doesn't take into account balloon mass
[16:03] <edmoore> sure, the variables are not always that helpful. neck lift is a good variable
[16:04] <Randomskk> neck lift sounds good
[16:04] <edmoore> looks good
[16:04] <edmoore> perhaps a drop-down though on the balloon mass?
[16:04] <edmoore> as it's discrete
[16:04] <Randomskk> guess so, are there ever any occasions where we'd use another balloon?
[16:05] <Randomskk> if not then a dropdown is easier
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[16:05] <edmoore> well, we can't really buy anything other than the values in burst1a, and the Cd for each is from a LUT
[16:05] <Randomskk> yea
[16:06] <Randomskk> the Cd and burst diameter fields will update as you change balloon mass via a lookup, with the option to manually change them (using the tickbox to enable a custom value)
[16:06] <Randomskk> and then if you'd typed a balloon mass not on the list, the tickboxes tick and you have to type in your own burst diameter and Cd
[16:06] <Randomskk> but if we're not gonna be using non-standard balloons I'll just make it a dropdown with the masses from the LUT
[16:06] <Randomskk> worth leaving those burst diameter and Cd constants as potentially editable for people who want to, or is that never going to be used?
[16:07] <edmoore> not on the web interface
[16:07] <Randomskk> okay, may as well drop them
[16:07] <Randomskk> air density and air density model?
[16:08] <edmoore> agreed. KISS for the web thing.
[16:08] <edmoore> I'd probably loose that too
[16:08] <Randomskk> bear in mind that the web interface does do ascent rate or burst altitude as inputs rather than launch diameter, so having to go to the spreadsheet to change things if you wanted to would mean having to go back to guessing launch diameters
[16:09] <edmoore> that's not really an issue if you want to 'power use'
[16:09] <Randomskk> ideally I'd have the web interface replace any potential use of the spreadsheet but equally it's definitely worth having the web interface be simple
[16:09] <edmoore> well can you put the advanced features down at the bottom maybe? having them on the side might confuse people
[16:10] <Randomskk> not sure what else the spreadsheet would offer for power use besides modifying constants etc
[16:10] <Randomskk> perhaps, yea
[16:10] <Randomskk> a "Advanced" link that drops down a box for things like constants and intermediate calculations
[16:10] <edmoore> yeah
[16:10] <Randomskk> would the gas type be in that?
[16:10] <edmoore> yep
[16:11] <Randomskk> okay
[16:11] <Randomskk> may as well have that at the side anyway but hidden until you click this link
[16:11] <Randomskk> since there's plenty of side space
[16:11] <edmoore> no one has flown helium in the last 4 years in UKHAS so it's probably outside 2-sigma
[16:11] <Randomskk> I take it you mean not-helium :P
[16:11] <edmoore> sorry yes
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[16:12] <Randomskk> perhaps a "View Constants" and "View Intermediate Stages" link that each drop down their respective box
[16:12] <Randomskk> and otherwise just those four inputs, with balloon mass being a dropdown
[16:13] <Randomskk> gotta run out for a bit but thanks for the input, will mock that up when I get back and then get started on the actual javascript
[16:13] <Randomskk> gotta solve a cubic for ascent rate -> launch diameter, sigh
[16:13] <edmoore> fun
[16:13] <Randomskk> "you need a launch diameter of 1.2 + 0.6i meters" would be bad
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[17:13] <DanielRichman> ping edmoore
[17:13] <edmoore> yo
[17:13] <DanielRichman> I hear you've been emailing Matthew Beddow?
[17:13] <DanielRichman> Sheffield uni air sampling balloon project.
[17:14] <edmoore> yeah, private and ukhas infact, although I didn't spot that they were the same person
[17:16] <DanielRichman> edmoore, he recently put out a call to the local school club (Beddow used to go to Reading School, where I am) asking for 144.8MHz APRS tracking help/if anyone had a 2m rig - are there any legal transmitters for that/don't you have to have a callsign in the air to do that?
[17:16] <edmoore> I think he's realised that that's a non-starter
[17:16] <edmoore> he's bought an ntx2 as far as I know
[17:16] <DanielRichman> ahh, good. Myself and ssb invited him onto irc but afaik he's yet to take that up
[17:17] <edmoore> I wish people would
[17:17] <edmoore> and also read the ukhas website
[17:17] <DanielRichman> heh
[17:18] <edmoore> I still get lots of emails asking questions answered on the ukhas wiki, which I've linked to on the CUSF site next to our email address saying 'read this before emailing'
[17:18] <DanielRichman> asides from it being easier to communicate on irc in some ways, they're also missing out on the awesome community! Isn't that right, guys!
[17:18] <DanielRichman> *besides
[17:33] <edmoore> [deathly silence]
[17:34] <russss> heh
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[17:46] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
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[18:02] <g0mjw> .
[18:11] <DanielRichman> edmoore|away, (when you're back, no rush) - I was asking around, and you mentioned building a slimjim/jpole a few days ago - to balun or not to balun? Wiki & what I thought says that it should have one, but I found this: http://forums.qrz.com/showpost.php?p=1275333&postcount=12 . Also, balun just below feedpoint or below the jpole/slim jim's "free space"?
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[18:38] <earthshine> (Delayed reaction) DanielRichman: YES !!
[18:38] <DanielRichman> earthshine, there were several possible options :p
[18:38] <earthshine> :D
[18:38] <earthshine> To the ........ isn't that right guys?
[18:38] <DanielRichman> ah!
[18:39] <DanielRichman> earthshine, :)
[18:39] <sbasuita> no pretty network graph D; http://github.com/github/linux-2.6/network
[18:40] <Randomskk> haha
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[19:37] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:38] <Randomskk> yo
[19:38] <jcoxon> trans-atlantic flight by the PBH guys in april apparently
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[19:45] <rjharrison> Evening all
[19:45] <fsphil> there site is a bit sparse
[19:45] <Randomskk> hi
[19:46] <fsphil> hiya rjharrison
[19:46] <rjharrison> hi Randomskk, fsphil
[19:47] <jcoxon> fsphil, yes, famously they are terrible at interacting with the balloon community
[19:47] <rjharrison> id this pbh
[19:47] <rjharrison> is
[19:47] <jcoxon> yup
[19:47] <rjharrison> something blue horizon
[19:47] <jcoxon> project blue horizon
[19:47] <fsphil> project
[19:47] <rjharrison> :)
[19:48] <jcoxon> they are planning to launch in april
[19:48] <rjharrison> obv really, never mind
[19:48] <rjharrison> Cool so am I as march is looking pants ATM
[19:48] <jcoxon> hehe, we should secretly rig the DL system for their flight
[19:48] <jcoxon> to test it out on an HF flight
[19:49] <rjharrison> Cool lets do it
[19:49] <rjharrison> Telem?
[19:49] <jcoxon> no idea yet
[19:49] <rjharrison> Then get the word out after launch
[19:49] <jcoxon> will prob by CW
[19:49] <rjharrison> bugger all they can do
[19:49] <jcoxon> we should still submit the data to them of course
[19:49] <fsphil> I found this, not sure how accurate it is: "For those with HF CW monitoring capabilities on 40m, our HF frequency will be HF 7.1025 MHz +/-300 Hz"
[19:49] <jcoxon> but people need to decode it so DL-fldigi is perfect for the job
[19:50] <jcoxon> fsphil, yeah thats how it was last time
[19:50] <jcoxon> it was pretty stable last flight but they only tx'd one string every hour
[19:50] <fsphil> I wonder if they've got a plan if the balloon drifts into the UK -- they'd have to shut down the HF transmitter yea?
[19:50] <jcoxon> it was torture
[19:50] <jcoxon> they should know about that
[19:51] <jcoxon> but it won't come here - they'll be aiming for africa - thats the route that is allowed by the FAA
[19:53] <fsphil> I must check how well I can receive that band - I don't remember hearing much there before
[19:53] <jcoxon> 40m is pretty busy
[19:53] <jcoxon> you'll be well placed :-)
[19:54] <jcoxon> ping rjharrison
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[19:54] <fsphil> for once lol
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[19:56] <fsphil> I wonder if they could use wspr -- there's an instant worldwide network of receivers straight away
[19:57] <jcoxon> pretty slow data rate :-)
[19:57] <fsphil> true, but if they're only sending position info
[19:57] <fsphil> I suppose of the CW works well, keep using it. don't complicate things
[19:58] <jcoxon> fsphil, well its certainly an interesting idea - wonder if the wspr community would be interested - certainly something we could do on our trans-atlantic flight :-p
[19:59] <jcoxon> bb in one sec
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[19:59] <sbasuita> whoa wspr is pretty cool
[19:59] <sbasuita> but its map breaks my cpu ;(
[20:00] <fsphil> very cool, and yea my eeepc crys if I bring up the map
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[20:00] <sbasuita> to be fair they've got really awesome data but the visualisation is lacking
[20:01] Action: DanielRichman donates one whole 3ghz core to the map
[20:01] Action: DanielRichman 's memory usage goes up
[20:01] <DanielRichman> up ...
[20:01] <DanielRichman> zoom in
[20:01] <DanielRichman> oh we're into swap
[20:02] <DanielRichman> Google Chrome: Tab: Propogation Map: 2.3GB of ram
[20:04] <fsphil> I try to limit it to my own contacts
[20:04] <fsphil> bit easier on the poor cpu
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[20:38] <Randomskk> so far so good, burst calcualtor works for a target burst altitude
[20:39] <Randomskk> need a bit of output precision truncating, I don't think this is accurate to 20 dp
[20:39] <Randomskk> silly javascript
[20:39] <Randomskk> now for the fun maths of solving that cubic
[20:40] <natrium42> hehe
[20:44] <Randomskk> need some output checking too, it will NaN a fair bit
[20:45] <Randomskk> e.g. if you try and set a target burst altitude that's impossibly high
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[20:46] <DanielRichman> suuuuuurely someone's written a high precision javascript calculation library?
[20:46] <Randomskk> DanielRichman: it's more that this whole thing is an approximation rather than the actual accuracy of javascript's maths
[20:46] <Randomskk> which I assume is accurate to at least double precision
[20:46] <DanielRichman> ahh, I see
[20:47] <Randomskk> though to be honest we are only looking for one or two sig figs of accuracy
[20:47] <Randomskk> the only potential issue is that errors add up quickly when you've got expressions like
[20:47] <Randomskk> var f = (((3*c)/a) - (Math.pow(b, 2) / Math.pow(a,2)) / 3.0);
[20:47] <Randomskk> var g = (((2*Math.pow(b,3))/Math.pow(a,3)) - ((9*b*c)/(Math.pow(a,2))) + ((27*d)/a) / 27.0);
[20:47] <Randomskk> var h = (Math.pow(g,2) / 4.0) + (Math.pow(f,3) / 27.0);
[20:47] <Randomskk> and even then a, b, c, d are
[20:47] <Randomskk> var a = (rho_a - rho_g) * (4.0 / 3.0) * Math.PI;
[20:47] <Randomskk> var b = -0.5 * Math.pow(tar, 2) * cd * rho_a * Math.PI;
[20:47] <Randomskk> var c = 0;
[20:47] <Randomskk> var d = (mp + mb) * 9.81;
[20:48] <Randomskk> so there's a lot of maths
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[20:49] <DanielRichman> Surely you can rearrange it so that all your divisions and introductions of irrational numbers are held until the very last step?
[20:50] <DanielRichman> and if c = 0 some of that is redundant? or is c meant to be configurable
[20:50] <Randomskk> at the moment I'm getting it working using given formulas for solving cubics
[20:51] <Randomskk> then I'll optimise it as much as possible to reduce cumulative errors
[20:51] <DanielRichman> groovy
[20:51] <DanielRichman> doesn't w|a have an API :P
[20:52] <Randomskk> it costs money to use, amazingly
[20:52] <Randomskk> but also I'm trying to get this to be totally independent, such that it'l happily run without an internet connection for instance
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[20:52] <DanielRichman> yeah, I wouldn't dare go down that route either
[20:53] <DanielRichman> Hmm. Slightly bent pvc tube will restore its original shape over time, right?
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[20:53] <Randomskk> uh
[20:53] <Randomskk> not if it has plastically deformed
[20:53] <Randomskk> I wonder what we do if the maths says there are three distinct and real possible launch raiduses
[20:54] <Randomskk> ignore any negative answers I guess
[20:54] <DanielRichman> <Randomskk> need some output checking too ?
[20:54] <DanielRichman> if you get two solutions, once negative ones have been discarded, is it fair to suggest that something has gone wrong?
[20:55] <Randomskk> not sure
[20:55] <Randomskk> it may be like 1m launch radius or 2.5m launch radius adn it turns out both give the same ascent rate
[20:55] <Randomskk> but different burst altitudes
[20:56] <Randomskk> I hope not! calculating three different real roots requries complex numbers
[20:56] <Randomskk> oh wait
[20:56] <Randomskk> no it doesn't
[20:56] <Randomskk> wrong i
[20:57] <Randomskk> stupid formula
[20:57] <natrium_> make a complex number class!
[20:58] <Randomskk> far too much effort
[20:58] <Randomskk> besides it turns out it's not needed
[20:58] <natrium_> mmkay
[21:00] <Randomskk> hmm well it is definitely totally fucked up atm
[21:00] <Randomskk> I put in a target ascetn rate of 3.5 and its resulting maths gives an output ascetn rate of 11.5
[21:01] <Randomskk> either some serious serious error stacking or more likely some dodgy maths
[21:01] <Randomskk> let's see
[21:02] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, what are you reading?
[21:02] <natrium_> are you using parseFloat?
[21:02] <Randomskk> natrium_: in part
[21:03] <natrium_> good
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[21:05] <natrium_> DanielRichman, so... are you lucid lynxing yet? :P
[21:05] <Randomskk> need to verify my maths on getting the cubic equation in the first place I think, something is going a bit wrong somewhere
[21:06] <DanielRichman> natrium_, I don't bother with the betas
[21:06] <DanielRichman> natrium_, be sure, I will upgrade when it comes out, but until then
[21:06] <DanielRichman> s/upgrade/upgrade via reinstallation
[21:06] <natrium_> actually it's an alpha
[21:06] <natrium_> beta comes out on thursday
[21:07] <DanielRichman> w/e point still applies
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[21:07] <natrium_> what's nice is that it boots much faster :P
[21:07] <natrium_> but suspend restarts the x session for me :S
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[21:07] <sbasuita> natrium_, how are the window decorations?
[21:08] <natrium_> first thing i did was to switch the window buttons back to the right
[21:08] <natrium_> and restore their proper order
[21:08] <Randomskk> yea, having them on the left annoys me no end
[21:08] Action: Randomskk is happy on 9.10 damnit :(
[21:08] <Randomskk> compiz is working a treat, it all looks pretty, boots fast, works fine
[21:08] <natrium_> well, it would be "ok" to have them on the left -- only in the mac order, not yet another ordering
[21:09] <natrium_> Randomskk, i just got annoyed by the gtk critical warnings
[21:09] <DanielRichman> don't wanna get sued for copying their layout :O
[21:09] <natrium_> hah
[21:09] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, compiz working? gfx card?
[21:09] <DanielRichman> I'm waiting on the promised radeon driver in lucid
[21:10] <Randomskk> fglrx driver
[21:10] Action: natrium_ also switched back to human clearlooks (the new theme is too washed out imo)
[21:10] <DanielRichman> fglrx!
[21:10] <Randomskk> it's an.. hd5750?
[21:10] <DanielRichman> don't you get memory leaks?
[21:10] <Randomskk> no?
[21:10] <natrium_> bbl
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[21:10] <Randomskk> fglrx has always worked really well for me
[21:10] <DanielRichman> pick a full screen window, maximise and minimise
[21:10] <DanielRichman> see if you get any random RAM leaking
[21:10] <Randomskk> as in, Xorg memory usage increasing?
[21:11] <DanielRichman> yep
[21:11] <DanielRichman> and never going down
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[21:11] <DanielRichman> ping sbasuita ^^
[21:11] <Randomskk> nope
[21:11] <Randomskk> ten maximise minimise cycles
[21:11] <Randomskk> no change to any of the memory consumption figures
[21:12] <sbasuita> fglrx has always been buggy for me and dan
[21:12] <sbasuita> memory leaks and system hangs etc
[21:12] <Randomskk> :/
[21:12] <sbasuita> but i get 3d open source with lucid kernel :D
[21:12] <Randomskk> I installed from ATI and keep it up to date
[21:12] <Randomskk> 3d acceleration works really well and compiz runs really nicely
[21:12] <Randomskk> I can draw fire on my screen etc
[21:13] <Randomskk> also I prefer compiz as a window manager for things like right clicking maximise to maximise horizontally or middle clicking to maximise vertically
[21:13] <DanielRichman> I wanted a plugin that, whenever I close a window, has a missile launcher pop out of gnome-panel and shoot it down
[21:13] <Randomskk> and it properly snaps to all my screen edges
[21:13] <Randomskk> my windows just burst into flames
[21:13] <sbasuita> the real debate is wobbly windows or no wobbly windows
[21:14] <sbasuita> tbf endless hours of distraction during essay-writing time
[21:14] <Randomskk> no wobbly windows
[21:14] <DanielRichman> wobbly windows look terrible
[21:14] <Randomskk> but meta+P greys out all other windows except focused one
[21:14] <Randomskk> so if focused is my essay
[21:14] <Randomskk> .... I can click anything else and it fades from existance
[21:17] <Randomskk> hmmm
[21:17] <Randomskk> either the maths to get the cubic is wrong
[21:17] <Randomskk> or it's impossible for a 1kg balloon with a 2kg payload to reach 3m/s ascent rate
[21:18] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, what are you reading at camb.?
[21:19] <Randomskk> Engineering
[21:19] <Randomskk> hmm. same for a 1kg payload on a 1kg balloon, trying to hit 3m/s ascent gives one negative balloon radius and two complex ones
[21:20] <sbasuita> where's laurenceb when you need him....
[21:20] <DanielRichman> ok
[21:20] <Randomskk> I can only conclude that the maths that sets up the cubic is wrong
[21:20] <Randomskk> hmmm
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[21:25] <Randomskk> 21:20:01 <sbasuita> where's laurenceb when you need him....
[21:25] <Randomskk> 21:24:27 -!- Laurenceb [~laurence@host81-154-84-43.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #highaltitude
[21:25] <Randomskk> nice
[21:25] <sbasuita> >_>
[21:25] <DanielRichman> not a bad call
[21:28] <Randomskk> aha! a factor of 9.81 out in one term
[21:28] <Randomskk> it seems to work now
[21:28] <Laurenceb> hi
[21:28] <Laurenceb> what you want
[21:28] <Laurenceb> :P
[21:28] <Laurenceb> maths?
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[21:34] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/bc/calc.html
[21:34] <sbasuita> Laurenceb, http://github.com/randomskk/cusf-burst-calc was a bit broken but i think it's working now
[21:34] <Randomskk> anyone wanna give it a test?
[21:35] <Randomskk> it seems to be giving reasonable values
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[21:36] <Randomskk> need output checking for NaN conditions but besides that...
[21:36] <Randomskk> it should correctly sanity check all inputs, too.
[21:38] <Randomskk> also I haven't looked at it in anything except firefox
[21:39] <DanielRichman> does it match up with whatever did these calculations previously?
[21:39] <Randomskk> by and large. the previous thing did them in an awkward way
[21:39] <Randomskk> you input the launch diameter, it tells you ascent rate and burst altitude
[21:39] <Randomskk> which is not what you really want
[21:40] <DanielRichman> hmm
[21:41] <DanielRichman> I believe when setting up the predictor we told edmoore that our payload was 600g, we had a 1200g balloon 24" chute & wanted 35k
[21:41] <DanielRichman> the predictor says 4.5 ascent; your calc now says 5.14; but I may be totally confused
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[21:41] <Randomskk> it does definitely get the same results
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[21:42] <Randomskk> for 2kg payload and 1kg balloon, setting a target ascent rate of 3 on my thing gives the same figures as a launch diameter of 1.86 in the spreadsheet
[21:42] <Randomskk> e.g. AR 3.05/3.03, TTB 171/172, BA 31280/31295
[21:43] <Randomskk> what ed got depends on what launch diameter he put into the spreadsheet, he may have just gone for whatever was close
[21:43] <Randomskk> would have to double check whatever he did
[21:43] <DanielRichman> ah, okey
[21:44] <DanielRichman> So the eventual target of this thing is to have the whole predictor in JS?
[21:44] <Randomskk> well just this part of it, at least atm
[21:44] <Randomskk> integrating this to the actual predictor is something to consider
[21:44] <Randomskk> but not atm
[21:44] <Randomskk> hmmm
[21:44] <Randomskk> if I take your payload stats
[21:44] <Randomskk> 600g, 1200g, 35km
[21:44] <Randomskk> and give 1.72m launch diameter to the spreadsheet
[21:44] <Randomskk> I get ascent rate 5.12, burst height 35024, ttb 114min
[21:45] <Randomskk> from my thing, target burst 35000, I get ascent 5.14, burst height 35k, ttb 114m
[21:45] <Randomskk> seems to be identical
[21:45] <DanielRichman> great
[21:45] <DanielRichman> success!
[21:45] <Randomskk> you can get an idea of how much error creeps in by the target ascent rate thing, namely that typing in 4.5 as a target gives an output of 4.8
[21:45] <Randomskk> even though it's just taking that target, doing maths on it, then doing the opposite maths on it
[21:46] <Randomskk> I suspect that's a combination of all those irrational numbers and javascript's sqrt and power-to-a-fraction ability
[21:46] <DanielRichman> that is quite a large difference
[21:46] <Randomskk> yea
[21:46] <DanielRichman> sort of the mathematical equivilant of google translating something to russian and back
[21:47] <Randomskk> something like that
[21:47] <Randomskk> except a bit more accurate
[21:47] <DanielRichman> and less excusable
[21:48] <Randomskk> heh
[21:48] <Randomskk> I will get the output checking working first and then see what I can do about that
[21:48] <Randomskk> it's not the end of the world given the accuracy we do these things to though
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[21:50] <DanielRichman> yeah
[21:51] <Randomskk> the error is weird though
[21:51] <Randomskk> for 3 it gets 3.05
[21:51] <Randomskk> 5 to 5.48
[21:51] <Randomskk> 2 to 2.01
[21:51] <Randomskk> appears to be strongly proportional to the value
[21:51] <Randomskk> probably a square in there or higher
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[21:58] <Randomskk> natrium42: https://randomskk.net/u/bc/
[21:59] <natrium42> works?
[21:59] <Randomskk> yup
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[21:59] <Randomskk> the output is self consistent but it's not fantastic at hitting the target ascent rate
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[21:59] <Randomskk> and the error gets bigger with larger ascents
[22:00] <Randomskk> probably optimisable but it's not very large until 5m/s or up
[22:00] <Randomskk> going for a target burst altitude works very well (much simpler maths)
[22:01] <Randomskk> in fact I wonder if target burst altitude shouldn't be the default one
[22:01] <Randomskk> how often do you want a 3m/s ascent
[22:01] <Randomskk> might swap the two around
[22:03] <SpeedEvil> ascent rate is useful for predictuors
[22:03] <natrium42> site breaks if browser window is small
[22:03] <SpeedEvil> which site is this?
[22:03] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/bc/
[22:03] <natrium42> add a div with "clear: both;" under the two floating ones
[22:03] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: it outputs ascent rate
[22:03] Nick change: ms7821_ -> ms7821
[22:03] <Randomskk> just a case of which you input
[22:04] <Randomskk> natrium42: it just sticks the constants window below the input window
[22:04] <Randomskk> guess I may as well have it do both though
[22:04] <natrium42> it's better if you could scroll imo
[22:04] <Randomskk> also it scales very well, so on smaller windows drop the font size a bit
[22:04] <Randomskk> okay
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[22:05] <natrium42> but good work :)
[22:05] <natrium42> seems to work well
[22:05] <natrium42> bbl
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[22:05] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: loads as just the three files on the n900
[22:05] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: wow, ouch.
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> oh. And on desktop
[22:05] <Randomskk> what browser tech is it using?
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> (ff)
[22:05] <Randomskk> hmm
[22:06] <Randomskk> that's even more concerning. it just loads separate css, js and html?
[22:06] <Randomskk> also what's a typical payload mass?
[22:06] <Randomskk> 1kg? 1.5kg? less? more?
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[22:06] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: adding calc.html on the end makes it load
[22:07] <Randomskk> oh, duh
[22:07] <Randomskk> sorry
[22:07] <Randomskk> forgot it wasn't index
[22:07] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, your /icons/ doesn't work
[22:07] <Randomskk> yea
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: then it works fine on n900 and ff
[22:09] <Randomskk> nice
[22:09] <Randomskk> still need to do the help and about links I guess
[22:09] <Randomskk> just have them reveal some text or whatever
[22:10] <DanielRichman> Randomskk, http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=https://randomskk.net/u/bc/calc.html !!!
[22:10] <Randomskk> oh lol
[22:10] <Randomskk> I haven't done that yet either
[22:10] <Randomskk> ugh
[22:10] <DanielRichman> the html validates fine
[22:10] <DanielRichman> css only one error
[22:10] <DanielRichman> just a typo by the looks of it
[22:10] <Randomskk> normally I would validate it as I go because my browser used to have that in the corner
[22:10] <Randomskk> but for some reason it doesn' thave that atm
[22:10] <Randomskk> oh, at least the xhtml is valid
[22:11] <Randomskk> that's usually the hard part
[22:11] <Laurenceb> bbl
[22:11] <DanielRichman> font-size: 0.8;
[22:11] <Randomskk> aha
[22:11] <Randomskk> should be 0.8em
[22:11] <Randomskk> fixed
[22:11] <Randomskk> that's easy
[22:12] <Randomskk> yay valid
[22:13] <Randomskk> maybe I should make the gravitational constant variable
[22:13] <Randomskk> seeing as how air density is
[22:13] <Randomskk> then we can use it for launches from mars, which is obviously what we'll be doing soon enough
[22:15] <Randomskk> such a long name though, "gravitational acceleration (m/s²)"
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> Also the gravitational constant - for those in other universes :)
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> Oooh - methane.
[22:16] <SpeedEvil> Handy for those people launching natural gas balloons :)
[22:17] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: but then I'd probably need to make pi variable too
[22:17] <Randomskk> who knows what kind of geometries those other universies have
[22:17] <SpeedEvil> Mmmm. Variable pie.
[22:17] <Randomskk> delicious
[22:17] <SpeedEvil> A dial on the side, going from apple to steak and kidney.
[22:18] <Randomskk> best pie ever
[22:18] <Randomskk> you can turn it from one side to the other as you eat
[22:18] <Randomskk> starter, main course and dessert all in one pie
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[23:16] <Randomskk> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/calc/ ta da
[23:16] <Randomskk> done for now
[23:17] <Randomskk> might tidy up the maths if I have some time later but it by and large appears to work nicely
[23:18] <natrium42> cool, great work!
[23:19] <MoALTz> might want to set the encoding
[23:19] <natrium42> hmm, methane is not too bad
[23:19] <Randomskk> MoALTz: I do, I believe
[23:19] <Randomskk> UTF8 is specified in the meta tag. I can't control what the server sends, but the meta tag should take priority.
[23:19] <natrium42> 28km alt with 1kg payload and 3m/s ascent
[23:19] <Randomskk> MoALTz: wow. but it's definitely broken. odd.
[23:20] <natrium42> Randomskk, use <sup> :P
[23:20] <MoALTz> if it's php you can change the header
[23:20] <Randomskk> just HTML
[23:20] <Randomskk> but it works on my server
[23:20] <Randomskk> sigh
[23:21] <Randomskk> that's weird. the html doc definitely sets the charset and that is meant to take priority
[23:22] <Randomskk> but firefox is totally igoring it
[23:22] <Randomskk> ignoring*
[23:22] <MoALTz> same in opera
[23:22] <Randomskk> https://randomskk.net/u/bc/calc.html
[23:23] <natrium42> works now
[23:23] <Randomskk> works on my server
[23:23] <Randomskk> not no CUSF server
[23:24] <Randomskk> anyway rewritten using sup
[23:24] <Randomskk> reuploading
[23:25] <Randomskk> okay
[23:25] <Randomskk> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/calc/
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[00:00] --- Tue Mar 16 2010