highaltitude.log.20100308

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[00:14] <adhoc> morning all
[00:15] <adhoc> so project horus is doing another launch today =)
[00:15] <natrium42> yep
[00:16] <natrium42> you didn't go to the launch?
[00:16] <adhoc> some of the local guys are a bit excied =)
[00:16] <adhoc> natrium42: i wanted to go last time, but had to work.
[00:16] <natrium42> it's not going to go high though
[00:16] <natrium42> only a 100g balloon
[00:17] <adhoc> its pretty damp at the moment, windy and cloudy
[00:17] <adhoc> whats the payload then ?
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[00:18] <natrium42> http://projecthorus.org/?p=777
[00:18] <natrium42> radio test
[00:19] <adhoc> so to help the telemetry errors they had last time?
[00:20] <adhoc> nice
[00:20] <Randomskk> natrium42: btw you can drop orion's xml from the dl-fldigi list, doubt we'll be flying under that name again
[00:21] <natrium42> not sure if i remember the password for rob's server :S
[00:21] <Randomskk> ah okay, will let him know
[00:22] <Randomskk> are we planning on moving everything to a single centralised domain at any point?
[00:22] <natrium42> yes
[00:22] <Randomskk> (perhaps at the same time as we put the tracker etc under version control? :P)
[00:22] <natrium42> yep, that's the plan :)
[00:22] <Randomskk> sweet
[00:23] <Randomskk> tracker has been getting better and better recently
[00:23] <natrium42> though i can give you login/password if you want
[00:23] <Randomskk> predicted flight path is really really neat
[00:23] <natrium42> yeah, i'd like to see a better test of it though
[00:23] <Randomskk> I don't think I need it right now but it would be useful to have generally, it lets me set up for a flight or what?
[00:23] <Randomskk> natrium42: haha yea, sorry about that :P
[00:23] <Randomskk> I think jcoxon was thinking of launching saturday if the weather is good?
[00:23] <natrium42> np, your tracker was still amazing
[00:24] <natrium42> very ghetto :D
[00:24] <Lunar_Lander> what is the objective of the next launch Randomskk
[00:24] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[00:24] <Randomskk> the code bug was literally that the sprintf had a u where it should have a d in two places.
[00:24] <natrium42> Randomskk, you didn't want to include float printf?
[00:24] Action: Randomskk did not catch that despite being warned that the code was very beta and untested
[00:24] Action: natrium42 has been using float printf on his avr
[00:24] <Randomskk> natrium42: not my code, we just grabbed what was around the cusf lab including some basic gps+rtty code for an arduino from iain
[00:25] <Randomskk> it worked when we tested it, but of course cambs is +ve lat, lon
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[00:25] <natrium42> yah, sucks to be near the 0 latitude, doesn't it? :P
[00:25] <Randomskk> jonsowman and I are planning out a new tracker along the same lines, e.g. really really small and basic
[00:25] <Randomskk> badgercub-esque really, except cusf are all out of bcs now and it has a few things to fix for the next version
[00:26] <Randomskk> ideally we want something as tiny and light as possible, hopefully small enough to just heatshrink the entire thing with two antennas leading out, run it off 2xAA lithiums or such
[00:26] <natrium42> BC looks very nice, i am tempted to make something very similar
[00:26] <Randomskk> it's neat but we want to change some things too
[00:27] <Randomskk> not sure what we'll do about the radio
[00:27] <Randomskk> it's currently such a hack
[00:27] <Randomskk> e.g. uplink data is by reading the RSSI value
[00:27] <natrium42> haha
[00:28] <natrium42> it's so integrated though
[00:28] <Randomskk> and also AVRs are easier to program for, especially if we can get something that'l run the arduino bootloader - make it really easy for anyone to play with
[00:28] <natrium42> everything in on micro
[00:28] <Randomskk> however atmel do not make AVRs with 434mhz radios, only 868 and 2.4ghz
[00:28] <natrium42> can't you use 868 too in UK?
[00:28] <Randomskk> we can, but most people don't have 868 radios or antennas
[00:28] <Randomskk> and path loss is higher, efficiency is lower, etc
[00:29] <Randomskk> for no appreciable advantage
[00:29] <natrium42> ah
[00:29] <Randomskk> still, we're looking into what's available
[00:30] <Randomskk> it's nice to have something that can be stuck on the side of almost anything and provide somewhat reliable radio tracking
[00:30] <Randomskk> e.g. today's flight, which otherwise would just be text messages
[00:30] <natrium42> yep
[00:30] <Randomskk> and iirc they were not being very reliable in the landing phase
[00:30] <Randomskk> I don't think we're really planning to have it do much more than gps+radio
[00:31] <Randomskk> just do those as well as possible
[00:31] <Randomskk> so yea, what would the username+password for spacenear.us let me do? set up flights to be tracked/clear the log?
[00:32] <natrium42> yeah, or grab the code
[00:32] <natrium42> although it's very messy atm :P
[00:32] <Randomskk> or type 'git init' and hence start a revolution :P
[00:33] <natrium42> hehe, i am planing a rewrite kinda
[00:33] <natrium42> that's why i am reluctant to do that
[00:33] <Randomskk> yea, fair enough
[00:33] <Randomskk> is the plan to open-source the code once it's pretty?
[00:34] <natrium42> yes
[00:34] <Randomskk> cool
[00:34] <natrium42> although feel free to copy it on your server and use it, if you want
[00:35] <Randomskk> we were saying that it might be neat to have a server URL field on dl-fldigi, but I think at the moment keeping it all in one place is probably the best idea
[00:35] <natrium42> yep, that's what i thought too
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[00:36] <natrium42> but first it needs to be in git and easily installable
[00:36] <natrium42> otherwise nobody is going to use it
[00:36] <Randomskk> yea
[00:36] <Randomskk> if you can just git clone and hence get your own totally working version, that'd be really neat.
[00:36] <Randomskk> especially with a genericalised data input so other groups could adapt it to whatever they use, whether or not it's dl-fldigi
[00:37] <natrium42> you think it's best to keep it in php?
[00:37] <natrium42> as most hosts support that
[00:38] <Randomskk> universal support and ease of setup is pretty much the only thing it has going for it, but on the other hand it is a massive thing
[00:38] <Randomskk> well also the huge number of people who know php and its relative simplicity
[00:38] <Randomskk> so I definitely think it's a good idea
[00:39] <natrium42> it could be ported to google app engine, if we used python
[00:39] <Randomskk> personally I like python better
[00:39] <natrium42> but the problem with google app engine is that they don't permit executables
[00:39] <Randomskk> yea
[00:39] <natrium42> so landing predictor would need to be ported to python also
[00:39] <Randomskk> we could run python on our own server, but eh
[00:39] <Randomskk> less portable for others as it takes more setup
[00:40] <natrium42> yeah, spacenear.us runs on my dedicated server, so i have python there
[00:40] <Randomskk> php can work fine if we are strict about code management and organisation
[00:40] <natrium42> php5 is quite decent actually
[00:40] <Randomskk> it just has the ability to turn into a messy heap
[00:40] <Randomskk> so does python, but it takes more effort to do so :P
[00:40] <natrium42> which it did :D
[00:40] <natrium42> hence the rewrite
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[00:41] <natrium42> i have been looking into frameworks for the backend
[00:41] <Randomskk> the only other option would be something like ruby, but unless any of us are great at ruby that's not really worth considering
[00:41] <natrium42> kohana looks okay
[00:41] <jedahan> thanks everyone who helped make our first launch a success. Pics will be up on http://islandlabs.org soon!
[00:41] <natrium42> jedahan, ooh, neat
[00:41] <natrium42> where are you based again?
[00:41] <jedahan> long island, ny
[00:41] <natrium42> aah
[00:41] <Randomskk> jedahan: cool! looks like a nice payload
[00:42] <jedahan> just a phone and camera, for the first test, but thanks
[00:42] <natrium42> good location for transatlantic launch :D
[00:42] <Randomskk> jedahan: you wanna add a radio, tracking it then becomes half the fun :D
[00:42] <jedahan> we are gonna launch something else this week or next so we dont waste the tank rental
[00:42] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
[00:42] <natrium42> gute nacht, Lunar_Lander
[00:42] <Randomskk> natrium42: I hadn't seen kohana before, it looks quite nice
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[00:42] <jedahan> Randomskk, yeah aprs by the spring, we are 50% done with our own pic + aprs..
[00:43] <Randomskk> the only other worthwhile php framework I know of is cakephp but that's basically "php on rails"
[00:43] <Randomskk> jedahan: ah cool
[00:43] <natrium42> Randomskk, yeah, looked at it a bit, but looks a bit constraining
[00:43] <Randomskk> yea, it is
[00:43] <natrium42> Randomskk, they want you to use their way (tm)
[00:43] <Randomskk> that's what I don't like about django so much
[00:43] <Randomskk> it's great for content web apps
[00:44] <Randomskk> but for actual web applications it seems to fall down a bit
[00:44] <Randomskk> ruby wise rails is okay and fairly popular, plus plenty of services exist to host it (e.g. heroku) but it's a bit of a big framework and unless we know ruby somewhat pointless
[00:44] <natrium42> yep, that's what it looked like to me -- but i have never used it
[00:45] Action: Randomskk tried to make a web app in django, ended up spending more time making django do what I want than making my app, stopped
[00:45] <natrium42> hehe :)
[00:45] <Randomskk> sinatra's another ruby one which is super lightweight and easy to use which could work well but doesn't provide the functionality of others
[00:46] <Randomskk> php is certainly the path of least resistance, especially if we want others to be able to run it easily
[00:46] <Randomskk> it's just a bit less fun to program in
[00:46] <natrium42> i agree
[00:46] <natrium42> best to use PHP for an open source project, despite its shortcomings
[00:47] <Randomskk> is "having others be able to easily deploy their own tracker" one of our main objectives?
[00:48] <natrium42> nah, but it's not bad to have
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[00:48] <Randomskk> I mean, the other thing we could easily do is have the one tracker support multiple launches in a more efficient manner, e.g. /tracker/orion to just show orion path, previous flights, received data, etc plus pitentially letting whoever runs it log in to set up a new flight
[00:48] <Randomskk> fcvo 'easy', that said
[00:48] <natrium42> been thinking of subdomains
[00:48] <Randomskk> much the same thing
[00:49] <Randomskk> probably just map the subdomain to /tracker/<name> in terms of the app
[00:49] <Randomskk> unless we actually hosted an entirely separate app and db for each subdomain
[00:49] <natrium42> yes, one line in httpd.conf :)
[00:49] <Randomskk> and a quick catchall on dns
[00:49] <Randomskk> any thoughts on python frameworks you'd consider?
[00:50] <natrium42> for db, maybe it's better to use file-based approach
[00:50] <natrium42> maybe even sqlite
[00:50] <Randomskk> sqlite > file imho, but depends on if we want one large db or one per project
[00:50] <natrium42> one per project
[00:50] <Randomskk> sqlite is again easy to set up, but most people can configure software to use a mysql db really easily anyway
[00:50] <Randomskk> for one per project then an sqlite file seems easiest
[00:50] <natrium42> or one large mysql db for all projects
[00:50] <Randomskk> that would be the other option, might make more sense
[00:51] <Randomskk> essentially you'd be able to enable/disable multiuser support
[00:51] <Randomskk> with it, you can have separate projects, each of which could presumably add their own flight details, and then I guess the main page would show all current flights or such
[00:51] <Randomskk> without it it runs like the current one
[00:51] <natrium42> most of the operations that we have is just adding entries to the end of the table
[00:51] <natrium42> so i don't see why sqlite would be slower
[00:52] <Randomskk> the advantage of a framework is we should be able to switch easily
[00:52] <natrium42> actually the most common operation is to read the table starting at some row
[00:52] <natrium42> yep
[00:52] <Randomskk> I'm not sure how good sqlite's caching is
[00:52] <Randomskk> in fact how much caching does the current tracker even do? a huge amount of requests are going to be redundant as far as the db is concerned
[00:53] <natrium42> it doesn't cache anything atm (although mysql might do some caching)
[00:53] <Randomskk> mysql should cache the table in memory but I don't think it caches results by default?
[00:53] <Randomskk> at any rate that's another thing that could be improved somewhat
[00:54] <Randomskk> being able to add a new flight from a web interface'd be nice, too
[00:54] <natrium42> yeah, like caching the latest position
[00:54] <natrium42> a backend is long overdue, yes
[00:54] <Randomskk> if people can just register for an account and then add their flight, tell it what callsign it's using, fill in some data, potentially give it a twitter or ustream or whatever, and have it all work
[00:55] <Randomskk> less work for the people running it
[00:55] <natrium42> exactly
[00:55] <Randomskk> perhaps with admin approval for accounts, but eh
[00:55] <Randomskk> the dl client can be made to upload packets to a different URL depending on what flight is selected on it anyway
[00:55] <natrium42> groups should be easy to implement
[00:56] <Randomskk> be nice to have a history of flights for each group etc
[00:56] <natrium42> i have been also thinking to have all receivers register in the backend
[00:56] <Randomskk> does rob's db currently log everything it's received, or does clearing it involve deleting it?
[00:56] <Randomskk> yes, that'd be much better
[00:56] <natrium42> then they can put their user name & pass in fldigi
[00:56] <Randomskk> especially if we want receiver points
[00:56] <Randomskk> currently we just have a load of dupes and none of it is very coherent
[00:57] <natrium42> each mission would have a set of owners that can go in and make changes
[00:57] <Randomskk> yup
[00:57] <Randomskk> and belong to a group, etc
[00:57] <natrium42> right
[00:57] <Randomskk> this is where you want a relational database
[00:57] <Randomskk> class Mission; has_many :owners; has_many :positions; belongs_to :group; etc
[00:58] <Randomskk> projecthorus.missions.find_by_name('Horus 2')
[00:58] <natrium42> :)
[00:59] <natrium42> i am really tired of the hack that the current tracker is :P
[00:59] <natrium42> but was lacking time to do it properly
[00:59] <Randomskk> yea
[00:59] <Randomskk> I have been lacking time to do anything properly while at uni, it sucks massively
[00:59] <Randomskk> spent so much time doing work this term :P
[00:59] <natrium42> i hear ya
[00:59] <Randomskk> on the flip side, 4 month summer holidays
[01:00] <natrium42> i am going to stay this summer term :S
[01:00] <natrium42> to finish masters asap
[01:00] <Randomskk> fair enough
[01:00] <Randomskk> I don't really have a choice in the matter
[01:02] <natrium42> does your uni close in summer?
[01:02] <Randomskk> I think it does for a little bit, but generally no
[01:02] <Randomskk> however all my courses are stopped and there's no useful work I could accomplish
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[01:03] <natrium42> ah
[01:04] <Randomskk> kohana's ORM looks okay though the syntax is definitely not as pretty
[01:04] <natrium42> it's good to have a break to work on non-uni stuff though :)
[01:04] <Randomskk> still at least it has an ORM
[01:04] <natrium42> yep
[01:04] <natrium42> so for python, what frameworks could be used
[01:04] <Randomskk> pylons, django,
[01:05] <natrium42> or do we need any?
[01:05] <Randomskk> web2py and maybe turbogears
[01:05] <Randomskk> are the main ones
[01:05] <Randomskk> we would need something, python doesn't inherently have http knowledge really
[01:05] <natrium42> haven't looked at pylons
[01:05] <Randomskk> pylons is simple and lightweight but less featured and lets you plug anything you want together for orm, mvc, etc
[01:05] <Randomskk> which is both an advantage and a disadvantage
[01:06] <natrium42> advantage imo :D
[01:06] <Randomskk> it is pretty nice
[01:06] <Randomskk> you can take your pick of DB backends or ORMs, templaters, etc
[01:07] <Randomskk> I'm less of a fan of web2py and turbogears though it's been a while since I've played with either
[01:07] <natrium42> hmm
[01:07] <natrium42> so what do you suggest?
[01:08] <Randomskk> pylons could probably be quite nice and would mean python
[01:08] <Randomskk> it can be run on google app engine
[01:08] <Randomskk> wrt executables I'm also looking into the cusf predictor
[01:08] <Randomskk> and more generally getting it to a useful API state
[01:08] <Randomskk> so the tracker could just do an http hit and get back a kml
[01:08] <Randomskk> eh
[01:08] <natrium42> you mean request the prediction from cusf server?
[01:08] <Randomskk> not great for a distributed open source project though
[01:09] <Randomskk> would only work on a small scale
[01:09] <Randomskk> rewriting the predictor in python would be an interesting task but probably consume more cpu than google are happy with
[01:09] <natrium42> hehe
[01:09] <Randomskk> otoh a lot of web hosts do allow python in some form or another, even if it comes down to cgi-bin scripts
[01:09] <Randomskk> works just as well since even 'properly' it's just fcgi or such
[01:10] <natrium42> google app engine also supports java :P
[01:10] <Randomskk> are you saying that to point out that "google app engine supports it" is not a valid argument? :P
[01:11] <natrium42> lol
[01:11] <natrium42> well, java might have better JIT compiler
[01:11] <natrium42> predictor code looks like it would JIT very well
[01:11] <Randomskk> ooh, true
[01:11] <Randomskk> that would be an option
[01:12] <natrium42> java only sucks for UI stuff, but it's almost as fast as native for algorithmic things
[01:12] <natrium42> bbl tea
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[01:25] <adhoc> sounds like a bit of an ex-project (project horus)
[01:25] <adhoc> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[01:26] <Randomskk> ?
[01:26] <adhoc> oops
[01:27] <adhoc> looks like the project horus ballon hs been launched
[01:27] <adhoc> too many up arrows =/
[01:27] <adhoc> =)
[01:33] <natrium42> very slow ascent
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[01:37] <natrium42> hey juxta
[01:37] <juxta_> hey natrium42
[01:37] <juxta_> whats the asc rate?
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[01:38] <natrium42> 1.11 m/s right now
[01:38] <natrium42> looks like you underfilled
[01:39] <juxta_> haha
[01:39] <adhoc> juxta_: its a big wind
[01:39] <juxta_> oh well
[01:39] <juxta_> yeah
[01:39] <juxta_> very windy on the ground
[01:39] <juxta_> are the chase cars reporting ok>
[01:39] <juxta_> ?
[01:39] <natrium42> need more hours of GFS data to do prediction :S
[01:39] <natrium42> yeah
[01:39] <natrium42> everything works fine
[01:39] <juxta_> ok great
[01:40] <natrium42> which of the chase cars is VK5AWP?
[01:41] <natrium42> ah, i see
[01:43] <juxta_> he's a ham
[01:43] <juxta_> i didnt know he was chasing
[01:43] <juxta_> can you remove chase-mmike?
[01:43] <juxta_> that was me by accident
[01:43] <adhoc> vk5fpaw i think is tracking also
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[01:47] <natrium42> ok
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[01:48] <natrium42> update tracker to show signal lines to cars
[01:49] <natrium42> balloon is descending
[01:50] <adhoc> natrium42: its certainly moving
[01:51] <juxta-> falling natrium42?
[01:51] <juxta-> :s
[01:52] <adhoc> -1.4ms over the last five minutes
[01:52] <natrium42> juxta-, did you lose signal?
[01:52] <juxta-> YEAH
[01:52] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[01:52] <juxta-> i did
[01:59] <juxta-> ok
[01:59] <juxta-> can sort of hear it
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[02:02] <juxta_> heyh natrium42
[02:02] <juxta_> what'
[02:02] <juxta_> what's happening?
[02:02] <juxta_> its very hectic down here
[02:02] <juxta_> weather is terrible
[02:02] <juxta_> think maybe the chute is so wet its weighed it down
[02:03] <natrium42> there are no updates since 17 past the hour
[02:03] <juxta_> ok
[02:03] <juxta_> it's near murray bridge right?
[02:06] <natrium42> it's near glendburr rd / hundred rd
[02:06] <natrium42> sorry glenburr rd / hundred rd
[02:10] <juxta_> yeah, I can hear it
[02:10] <juxta_> amazingly
[02:10] <juxta_> i can even decode it
[02:10] <juxta_> how far away am I?
[02:10] <juxta_> at least 10km?
[02:12] <juxta_> hmm
[02:12] <juxta_> it's at 200m now
[02:12] <juxta_> is it bouncing or something?
[02:12] <natrium42> about 50km away from you
[02:12] <juxta_> wow
[02:13] <natrium42> it should land near Jackson Rd
[02:13] <juxta_> what's the dsc rate?
[02:13] <juxta_> something like 0.1m?
[02:13] <natrium42> -34.974, 139.519
[02:13] <juxta_> cheers natrium42
[02:13] <juxta_> natrium42, we're just on the fringe of radio range
[02:13] <juxta_> and its comiung in and out
[02:13] <natrium42> yeah
[02:13] <juxta_> (radio range on the tracker)
[02:14] <juxta_> but its hilly heretoo
[02:14] <juxta_> any packets from others atm?
[02:14] <juxta_> or just the chase cars?
[02:14] <juxta_> coming to the top of a hill now
[02:14] <natrium42> just you right now
[02:14] <juxta_> oh ok
[02:16] <juxta_> hmm
[02:16] <juxta_> wonder why it came down
[02:17] <juxta_> my radio has a narrow filter in CW than in ssb
[02:17] <juxta_> so I have it in CW with better results
[02:18] <natrium42> i think it ended up in a tree
[02:18] <natrium42> how were the faster baudrates working?
[02:20] <juxta_> they didnt kick in
[02:20] <juxta_> they were set to come on after 5km :(
[02:20] <natrium42> ah
[02:22] <juxta_> no signal atm
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[02:26] <juxta_> hey amboar
[02:26] <amboar> o/
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[02:26] <amboar> sup?
[02:26] <juxta_> chasing the balloon
[02:26] <amboar> yep
[02:26] <juxta_> (its terry here)
[02:26] <amboar> watching it on the live tracker
[02:26] <amboar> yeah
[02:26] <amboar> figured ;)
[02:26] <SpeedEvil> Good luck!
[02:26] Action: SpeedEvil goes to sleep.
[02:26] <juxta_> it came down very early :(
[02:26] <amboar> adhoc: o/
[02:26] <juxta_> i can hear it now natrium42
[02:26] <amboar> juxta_: yeah?
[02:26] <juxta_> very weak though
[02:26] <amboar> how's the weather?
[02:27] <amboar> pretty dodgy down this way...
[02:27] <juxta_> horrible
[02:27] <juxta_> i think the payload/chute got so wet it weighed it down
[02:27] <amboar> yep
[02:27] <juxta_> and dragged it down :(
[02:27] <amboar> ah well
[02:27] <amboar> get some good data?
[02:27] <juxta_> ah well indeed
[02:27] <juxta_> not really haha
[02:28] <juxta_> it came dfown way to early
[02:28] <amboar> :/
[02:28] <juxta_> didnt make it through the clouds
[02:28] <amboar> oh :(
[02:28] <natrium42> Predicted Landing: -34.9764, 139.542 at 02:17 UTC
[02:28] <amboar> planned much for the next launch?
[02:31] <juxta_> not sure yet
[02:31] <juxta_> i hacve another big balloon
[02:31] <juxta_> might go for a 38k or so hjeight
[02:31] <juxta_> with a small payload
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[02:32] <amboar> right
[02:32] <amboar> hopefully there's better weather
[02:32] <amboar> you have to get a launch license right?
[02:32] <juxta_> yeah]
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[02:32] <juxta_> for 2 years
[02:32] <amboar> is it specific to a day?
[02:32] <amboar> oh
[02:32] <amboar> so you can launch whenever?
[02:32] <amboar> (aside from organisation efforts...)
[02:33] <juxta_> yeah
[02:33] <amboar> cool
[02:33] <juxta_> can you estimate how far behind vk5zsn i am?
[02:33] <amboar> err
[02:33] <amboar> is there a measuring tool on the tracker?
[02:34] <amboar> vk5zsn is near avoca dell according to it
[02:34] <natrium42> there should be :S
[02:35] <amboar> :(
[02:35] <amboar> can't find it
[02:36] <amboar> but you're on the same road
[02:36] <juxta_> yeah
[02:36] <juxta_> chasing him down
[02:37] <adhoc> 5zsn is in tthe 100lmh zone
[02:38] <adhoc> is the baloon down yet?
[02:38] <amboar> adhoc: yeah
[02:39] <amboar> adhoc: apparently it didn't get above the clouds either
[02:39] <adhoc> yeah i watched it for a while, the wind here is fierce
[02:39] <amboar> yeah i was up at mt barker yesterday, weather was terrible
[02:40] <adhoc> i'm not hopeful mu washing will get dry today =( but at least theres some excitement ;)
[02:40] <amboar> hrm
[02:40] <amboar> speaking of washing
[02:40] <amboar> probably should do some myself
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[02:41] Action: adhoc wonders if juxta is out of 3g or gsm coverage ...
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[02:42] <amboar> apparently not ;)
[02:43] <juxta_> what happened?
[02:43] <juxta_> I lost gsm
[02:44] <amboar> hah
[02:44] <amboar> 13:11 * adhoc wonders if juxta is out of 3g or gsm coverage ...
[02:45] <amboar> that was all...
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[03:19] <natrium42> what happen??
[03:49] <natrium42> juxta, juxta juxta juxta
[03:49] <natrium42> :)
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[03:58] <natrium42> juxta_, did you find it?
[03:58] <juxta_> hey all
[03:58] <juxta_> yup
[03:58] <natrium42> \o/
[03:58] <juxta_> all good :)
[03:58] <natrium42> was balloon still inflated?
[03:58] <juxta_> balloon wasnt popped either
[03:59] <juxta_> caught in some trees
[03:59] <natrium42> ah, underfill eh
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[03:59] <juxta_> but it had been dragged a long way
[03:59] Nick change: G8DSU_ -> G8DSU
[03:59] <juxta_> looks like the foam/chut got waterlogged
[03:59] <juxta_> and weighed things down
[04:00] <natrium42> i see
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[04:00] <juxta_> no gsm out there
[04:00] <juxta_> just coming back in to murray bridgee now
[04:01] <juxta_> will have to re-launch next week some time and get it right
[04:01] <natrium42> glad you got it back :)
[04:02] <natrium42> better luck next time
[04:02] <juxta_> hehe
[04:02] <juxta_> what was the max alt?
[04:02] <juxta_> 2kmish?
[04:03] <natrium42> less
[04:03] <natrium42> 1.4km or so
[04:03] <juxta_> wow, ok'
[04:03] <natrium42> new record!
[04:03] <natrium42> :D
[04:03] <juxta_> haha
[04:03] <juxta_> bat going flat here
[04:03] <juxta_> back in a litle while
[04:04] <natrium42> kk
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[04:35] Nick change: jos -> Jos
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[05:24] <juxta_> hey all
[05:25] <amboar> o/
[05:28] <rjharrison> Wow perfect data
[05:28] <rjharrison> Hey juxta
[05:28] <rjharrison> Nice launch
[05:28] <rjharrison> Bit low :)
[05:33] <juxta_> heh
[05:33] <juxta_> just a tad
[05:33] <juxta_> in hahndorf having lunch at the german arms amboar
[05:35] <amboar> juxta_: nice. haven't been there in a while
[05:35] <amboar> hope you're not outside :P
[05:38] <rjharrison> I'v not been there before :-p
[05:39] <juxta_> yeah the weather is rotten
[05:39] <juxta_> balloon didnt burst rjharrison
[05:39] <rjharrison> OOh
[05:39] <rjharrison> Leaked :)
[05:39] <juxta_> payload got wet and was enough to weigh it down
[05:39] <rjharrison> Ice?
[05:39] <juxta_> ascent rate was 1m/s beforew
[05:39] <juxta_> nah no ice
[05:39] <juxta_> not cold enough
[05:39] <rjharrison> hehe hab is dun
[05:39] <juxta_> it's 25 deg or so
[05:39] <rjharrison> fun
[05:39] <rjharrison> Yep bit low for ice :)
[05:40] <juxta_> oh yeah
[05:40] <juxta_> and I forgot to put the sd card in
[05:40] <rjharrison> Obv. been conservative on the He after last launch
[05:40] <juxta_> yay for me
[05:40] <juxta_> heh, yeah
[05:40] <rjharrison> :D
[05:40] <juxta_> well it was a 100g balloon too
[05:40] <juxta_> so it wasnt going to go high
[05:40] <rjharrison> Yep
[05:40] <juxta_> but it was sort of lucky it did come down
[05:40] <rjharrison> It's all experiance
[05:40] <juxta_> with that asc rate it wouild have gone hundreds of km's
[05:40] <rjharrison> true
[05:41] <juxta_> weather was bad, launch was rushed, nearly got caught in a tree on the way up etc
[05:41] <juxta_> a lot of hams turned up though
[05:41] <rjharrison> Yep we have all been there one way or another
[05:41] <rjharrison> :)
[05:41] <juxta_> I think the land owner was a little annoyed
[05:41] <juxta_> they all got there before me and started opening gates etc
[05:42] <rjharrison> hehe, ho well you learn something there
[05:43] <amboar> juxta_: you should launch from the paddock out the back of mine - plenty of wind and minimal trees
[05:43] <juxta_> yeah good idea
[05:43] <amboar> where'd you launch from today?
[05:43] <juxta_> I will see if casa will give me permission
[05:43] <juxta_> just across the raod from the forrest
[05:44] <amboar> ah right
[05:44] <amboar> shack?
[05:44] <juxta_> yeah
[05:44] <amboar> :)
[05:48] <rjharrison> natrium42 I hope to launch this next weekend
[05:49] <juxta_> oh nice rjharrison, the 3kg launch?
[05:57] <rjharrison> Posibly
[05:57] <rjharrison> But def a 1500
[05:59] <juxta_> lunch time,
[05:59] <juxta_> back a bit later on
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[06:07] <rjharrison> listener is working overtime at the moment
[06:07] <rjharrison> 2 launchs either side of the world in less than 24 hours
[06:22] <natrium42> hehe
[06:38] <MikeMc68> morning
[06:38] <MikeMc68> just watched sacotts video
[06:38] <MikeMc68> now i feel seasick
[06:38] <MikeMc68> scott
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[07:29] <jcoxon> morning
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[08:14] <jonsowman> morning all
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[09:43] <edmoore> morning all
[09:46] <edmoore> G0MJW: greetings
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[09:50] <edmoore> evening junderwood
[09:50] <edmoore> juxta even, sorry
[09:50] <junderwood> Hi Ed
[09:50] <junderwood> oops - just read the next line ;-)
[09:51] <junderwood> good flight yesterday?
[09:52] <juxta_> hey edmoore
[09:53] <edmoore> junderwood: not without some excitement
[09:53] <edmoore> see the video
[09:53] <junderwood> which is ...
[09:53] <edmoore> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xchspy_ukhas-church-hill-site-project-orio_webcam
[09:53] <junderwood> ta
[09:53] <edmoore> you'll notice it cleave through the football match with neutral bouyancy on the first attaempt
[09:53] <juxta_> bad day for ballooning here today :)
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[09:54] <MikeMc68_> morning
[09:55] <juxta_> hi MikeMc68
[09:56] <juxta_> we had a similar problem today edmoore: underfilled, asc rate was 1m/sec. raining heavily and very windy too, the payload and chute soaked up some water which killed the lift
[09:56] <juxta_> so it slowly came down
[09:56] <edmoore> we managed to grab it and get some more helium in for a normal flight
[09:56] <edmoore> moral: no scales = no launch
[09:56] <edmoore> right, lecture time
[09:56] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
[09:58] <juxta_> rjharrison, still in?
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[10:13] <MikeMc68_> Is anyone here that was tracking via radio yesterday ?
[10:14] <MikeMc68_> I want to know if the last GPS co-ordinate from the radio transmitter matched it's final resting place ?
[10:31] <MikeMc68_> The logs make no sense
[10:31] <MikeMc68_> none of the GPS co-ordinates are even near where it landed
[10:40] <MikeMc68_> It's final landing spot was 51.585439,-1.035817
[10:40] <MikeMc68_> and yet there are no co-ordinates even close in the logs
[10:42] Action: MikeMc68_ is talking to himself
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[11:03] Nick change: edmoore|away -> edmoore
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[11:04] <MikeMc68_> Ed
[11:06] <edmoore> MikeMc68_: yo
[11:06] <MikeMc68_> Hi
[11:06] <MikeMc68_> Was wondering why the GPS logs show co-ordinates that were not even close to where Orion landed
[11:07] <edmoore> meridian handling fail
[11:08] <MikeMc68_> so how did that guy find it then? That is puzzling me
[11:09] <edmoore> i think the mapping function to get the correct longitude was figured out on irc
[11:09] <russss> plus there was also a separate GPS-SMS thing on board
[11:09] <russss> and that was correct
[11:09] <MikeMc68_> ahh so someone gave him a co-ordinate
[11:09] <MikeMc68_> ok
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[11:09] <russss> this was just a quick hack to make it trackable by our tracker
[11:10] <edmoore> I don't actually know, I was in a field during all of this playing with rockets
[11:10] <G0MJW> MikeMc68 - I am just going out but the last position was correct in the logs. The problem is the conversion unsigned/signed in the print routine. My last log was at 257m which is pretty much on the ground - but that is at least 1 second behind actual location so recalling where the chute was in relation to the payload, it was possibly moving across the field as it came down and not that far off..
[11:11] <russss> it had a pretty good antenna on it from the sounds of things
[11:11] <MikeMc68_> But I have searched the log and cannot find a co-ordinate that was accurate
[11:12] <MikeMc68_> The ending co-ordinate was 51.585439,-1.035817
[11:12] <MikeMc68_> But if you search the logs for 1.03 there is nothing in there
[11:12] <G0MJW> That last position, the layby, was down wind of the actual landing location. Don't search for long - search for lat.
[11:13] <MikeMc68_> But you say your last log was accurate
[11:14] <G0MJW> It was accurate. But you need to fix the error in the printing or it will look like 1.6 deg
[11:14] <MikeMc68_> ok so it was a code error ?
[11:15] <russss> the sprintf was rendering the signed int as unsigned
[11:15] <G0MJW> Yes. Unsigned to Signed. And West is negative.
[11:15] <MikeMc68_> ahh
[11:15] <MikeMc68_> So lesson learnt for my payload - stick the payload in the back of a car and take it for a drive over the meridian
[11:15] <edmoore> plan!
[11:15] <G0MJW> And the equator...
[11:16] <edmoore> that's a good moral for everything. never assume.
[11:16] <edmoore> like never assume there's bound to be a 2L plastic bottle
[11:16] <edmoore> or that sprintf will work the way you want
[11:16] <MikeMc68_> yeah - I was thinking for mine - to make up a seperate weight that is exactly the same as teh payload weight and bring it with me
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[11:19] <MikeMc68_> My long is 0.11 so not far to drive to cross the meridian
[11:19] <MikeMc68_> don't really think a test over teh equator is needed ;)
[11:19] <MikeMc68_> I doub't i'd even use sprintf in my code
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[11:28] <MikeMc68_> Hi Antoine
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[11:36] <MikeMc68_> Can anyone answer a question on spinning payloads?
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[11:55] <SpeedEvil> what
[11:55] <SpeedEvil> they all spin
[11:57] <MikeMc68_> Yeah but how to stop it or minimise it?
[11:57] <MikeMc68_> Scotty's video was vomit inducing
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> edmoore did something like that
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> take two diamonds of fabric 1m*1m
[12:00] <SpeedEvil> attach them so from the top they look like +
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> attach to payload
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> this stops spinning
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> (or greatly slows it)
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[12:26] <scotty> anyonre here from CUSE
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[12:30] <LazyLeopard> CUSF? The usual suspects are showing a degree of awayness...
[12:33] <edmoore> scotty: hi. assume you wanted someone to ask about what you just called me about
[12:34] <edmoore> anyhoo, gtg
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[12:54] <MikeMc68_> Hi guys
[12:54] <MikeMc68_> SpeedEvil are there any pics of that arrangement ?
[12:54] <SpeedEvil> yes, but I don't know where.
[12:55] <SpeedEvil> and why did I last ping out?
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[12:55] <MikeMc68_> I'll ask Ed
[12:55] <MikeMc68_> I was thinking of acceleromter and controlled gas venting
[12:56] <MikeMc68_> but i guess that majorally complexes the matter
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> Couple of tiny computer fans on a lever arm
[12:58] <SpeedEvil> alternatively
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[13:04] <MikeMc68_> yeah
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> but passive damping is lots easier
[13:09] <MikeMc68_> How about a pole with a vane out one side, like a weathercock ?
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[13:16] <SpeedEvil> that works too
[13:17] <SpeedEvil> I suspect the diamond of light fabric is probably lightest
[13:18] <MikeMc68_> yeah - mylar and coathanger
[13:22] <MikeMc68_> i must ask Scotty what he used for the box
[13:23] <MikeMc68_> scottjames that is
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[13:44] Nick change: rjharr_mobile -> rjharrison_lap
[13:44] <rjharrison_lap> :)
[13:44] <rjharrison_lap> Hi edmoore
[13:44] <edmoore> hi rjharrison_lap
[13:45] <rjharrison_lap> Never got that hab meeting off the gound I think I'm going to get that sorted for the summer now
[13:45] <edmoore> i feel odd talking to your lap
[13:45] Nick change: rjharrison_lap -> rjharrison_
[13:45] <edmoore> ta
[13:46] <rjharrison_> @boot rjharrison
[13:46] <rjharrison_> We have admin rights some how
[13:46] <rjharrison_> EARS good?
[13:46] <rjharrison_> Did that rocket launch
[13:48] <Randomskk> MikeMc68: around?
[13:48] <Randomskk> MikeMc68: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&source=hp&q=51.586681,-1.032433 is the last position received via radio, corrected for the signed to unsigned error
[13:49] <Randomskk> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&geocode=&q=51.586860,+-1.036869 is the final resting place
[13:49] <Randomskk> final radio packet was at 270m altitude or so too
[13:49] <Randomskk> so that works out very well
[13:49] <Randomskk> MikeMc68: basically the part after the decimal point was being printed as an unsigned value when really it was signed, leading to that issue
[13:51] <LazyLeopard> Anyone cooked up a corrected track for the flight?
[13:52] <Randomskk> not yet but I will probably do so soon
[13:52] <Randomskk> need to make a quick converter then parse the data we received
[13:52] <Randomskk> what would be a good output?
[13:53] <Randomskk> I guess kml is easy to plot on a google map etc
[13:53] <LazyLeopard> I'd guess, yes.
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[13:59] <Randomskk> even with the correction, the gps was broken for a fairly significant part of the flight
[13:59] <Randomskk> after it crossed the meridian and before whatever happened to make it work again
[14:02] <LazyLeopard> Yeah, it was stuck for a while, wasn't it... Oh well...
[14:02] <Randomskk> not sure why that happened either, and it may or may not be related
[14:03] <jonsowman> might take it for a drive over the meridian next week
[14:03] <Randomskk> we have the data log and are getting the unit back soon, will be playing around with testing it and feeding it the data to simulate a crossing
[14:03] <Randomskk> heh yea, on the way back home leave it running
[14:03] <Randomskk> not a bad idea
[14:03] <Randomskk> will probably just swap to the tinygps library and therefore get around the problem entirely though
[14:03] <jonsowman> assuming it was a s/w issue
[14:03] <Randomskk> true
[14:04] <LazyLeopard> It did get stuck as it crossed the line...
[14:04] <jonsowman> im hoping it was a s/w issue
[14:04] <Randomskk> no idea what caused that
[14:04] <Randomskk> the only thing I can imagine is that since we are only having it print four digits of each value, the unsigned thing meant less significant digits were changing
[14:04] <Randomskk> or some other software bug
[14:05] <Randomskk> the gps itself should not have buggered up that badly just from crossing the meridian
[14:05] <jonsowman> definitely not
[14:05] <Randomskk> certainly having it reset itself when it loses lock would be good though
[14:05] <jonsowman> yup
[14:06] <jonsowman> btw if you decide to play with that, this website is helpful
[14:06] <jonsowman> http://www.hhhh.org/wiml/proj/nmeaxor.html
[14:06] <jonsowman> i realise we dont have it back yet, but still
[14:07] <Randomskk> hopefully soon
[14:07] <jonsowman> yes
[14:07] <Randomskk> definitely worth testing the gps as we cross the meridian on the way back though
[14:07] <jonsowman> eh
[14:07] <jonsowman> *yeh
[14:07] <Randomskk> might just leave it running and datalogging to a serial port on the laptop
[14:07] <jonsowman> might as well
[14:07] <jonsowman> yup
[14:07] <jonsowman> right, sleep time
[14:07] <jonsowman> bbl
[14:09] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: the same number of digits were canging
[14:10] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: yea, so I've really no idea why it suddenly started 'working' again
[14:10] <Randomskk> did it cross the 1 degree line or something?
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: If zero or more of the integer or the decimal part of the lat or lon are >10000, you need to subtract 65536 from them. And then negate the whole number
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> then it 'just works'
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> yes - eventually
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> just
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> -1.03w
[14:10] <Randomskk> that was after it started working though, I guess
[14:10] <SpeedEvil> yes
[14:10] <Randomskk> that was when it flipped around
[14:11] <Randomskk> since it got the -1 correct
[14:11] <Randomskk> the degree part was being printed signed
[14:11] <Randomskk> the decimal part was unsigned
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> oh - yeah
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> missed that
[14:11] <Randomskk> tbh had it been signed it would have printed "0.-001" etc
[14:11] <Randomskk> equally bad
[14:11] <SpeedEvil> though it doens't explain the GPS going away for extended periods.
[14:11] <Randomskk> I think probably ditching iain's current nmea parser and just using tinygps is the way forward
[14:11] <Randomskk> no
[14:12] <SpeedEvil> that is indeed a seperate bug
[14:12] <Randomskk> so that's still a mystery
[14:12] <Randomskk> will run it over the meridian when I go home on saturday
[14:12] <SpeedEvil> well - there is nothing horribly wrong that I saw with the parser
[14:12] <LazyLeopard> Yeah. the first value I saw after it re-started was 0.57514, but there's a big hole in my log leading up to that when I was trying to do some direction finding...
[14:12] <SpeedEvil> just the printer
[14:12] <Randomskk> SpeedEvil: true, but the printer is going to end up harder than it needs to be to print the values correctly
[14:13] <Randomskk> though I guess just add the two together into a float and print that
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: naah
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> Randomskk: you just have a seperate 'output is negative' bit
[14:15] <SpeedEvil> and you print that
[14:16] <SpeedEvil> rather than dealing with the negative case
[14:16] <Randomskk> true
[14:16] <Randomskk> that'd be much easier
[14:16] <Randomskk> since the NMEA data is always positive with a direction
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> latsign="-")else{latsign="0"}
[14:17] <SpeedEvil> or something
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[14:17] <Randomskk> or just ""
[14:17] <Randomskk> but yes
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> I meant char. But that would be better
[14:55] <MikeMc68> Randomskk: Hi
[14:56] <MikeMc68> Thanks for that - that was the layby I was sat in
[15:00] <MikeMc68> Guys what happened during the parts of the flight when "it wasn't working ? Was it still transmitting but just the same string over and over or was no signal at all received?
[15:26] <GW8RAK> Does anyone know if it is possible to extract Lat, Long and altitude from a Garmin vehicle sat nav please? I acquired one with a broken screen at the weekend.
[15:28] <MikeMc68> Sure
[15:28] <MikeMc68> You'd need to find where on the circuit board the serial data is being pumped out to the microcontroller
[15:28] <MikeMc68> Do you have a logic analyser ?
[15:28] <MikeMc68> or a bus pirate ?
[15:30] <GW8RAK> Don't have anything like that. I was wondering if it was possible to access it via the USB (?) connector on the back.
[15:31] <MikeMc68> What model is it ?
[15:31] <GW8RAK> Nuvi 250 or 255
[15:32] <MikeMc68> yes i think it is possible with that model
[15:33] <MikeMc68> check out GPSBabel - http://www.gpsbabel.org/
[15:34] <GW8RAK> Thanks Mike. I'm trying to get some work done and thought I'd ask on here before spending an hour reading the web. I'll have a look at that website.
[15:36] Action: russss wants to try using an accelerometer+fan to stabilize spin now, to see if it would work
[15:39] <MikeMc68> russs - sounds like an interesting project
[15:39] <MikeMc68> Question is - are there enough air molecules up there for a fan to have effect ?
[15:39] <russss> if there aren't, why would it spin in the first place?
[15:39] Action: russss ponders
[15:43] <MikeMc68> cos it was spinning on it's way up
[15:43] <MikeMc68> and once it is in that low friction area it will just keep on spinning
[15:43] <MikeMc68> so you have to either null the spin on its ascent for counter it once you are up there
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[15:44] <russss> yeah, so if you can stop it spinning on the way up then it should be fine
[15:44] <MikeMc68> hence a weather vane type arrangement will probably be easiest
[15:44] <MikeMc68> But controlling spin with some tiny fans would sure be an interesting project
[15:45] <russss> that also means you could direct where the payload was pointing when it was up there
[15:45] <russss> I'm interested in whether edmoore's reaction wheels would work
[15:45] <MikeMc68> yeah i was thinking that - controlling spin for your own ends
[15:46] <MikeMc68> i.e. a slow controlled spin to take a 360 degree panoramic shot
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[15:58] <jonsowman> hi edmoore
[15:58] <edmoore> hi jonsowman
[16:01] <jonsowman> how was ears? did you launch martlet?
[16:01] <edmoore> nope, didn't have the correct launch rail
[16:01] <edmoore> so just had a quick look
[16:01] <jonsowman> ah right yeh forgot about that
[16:01] <edmoore> scotty has put ferret in the post
[16:01] <jonsowman> good stuff
[16:02] <jonsowman> adam has fixed the bug
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[16:02] <LazyLeopard> MikeMc68: re your earlier question: It kept transmitting, but the same line (apart from the event counter and checksum) over and over: $$ORION,658,11:16:57,52.1839,0.65532,3359,8*BCB5
[16:02] <jonsowman> the one in the code anyway, still doesnt explain why it died when it went over the meridian though
[16:03] Action: russss wonders if it would be possible to make up a software test harness to test that kind of stuff
[16:04] <edmoore> there's gps simulation code on the wiki
[16:04] <edmoore> to use a pc as a fake gps
[16:04] <edmoore> various people on here have it used and working
[16:05] <LazyLeopard> ...which would rule out a fault in the rest of the kit. If the GPS itself got stuck, however...
[16:06] <edmoore> oh sure, but how do you propose on testing that with a haress?
[16:06] <edmoore> harness*
[16:06] <russss> GPS simulator ;)
[16:06] <LazyLeopard> Could the GPS have been doing something unexpected to its NMEA output just west of the line?
[16:07] <jonsowman> the launch site wasn't far west of the meridian
[16:07] <LazyLeopard> With navigation kit, sooner or later, you get to the point where you have to take it and use it...
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[16:07] <jonsowman> it crossed it within 5-10 mins of launch roughly
[16:08] <LazyLeopard> It crossed the line between these two log points:
[16:09] <LazyLeopard> RX (2010-03-07 11:16Z): $$ORION,531,11:16:47,52.1844,0.0009,3332,8*5E4B
[16:09] <LazyLeopard> RX (2010-03-07 11:16Z): $$ORION,532,11:16:57,52.1839,0.65532,3359,8*48AA
[16:09] <edmoore> we've not bumped into the problem in our 20 or so flights, but all of the badgers have used the binary protocols to interface to the gps.
[16:10] <jonsowman> binary protocol is probably a good idea
[16:10] <jonsowman> though NMEA parsing should work really, we'll see how the tinygps lib works
[16:11] <edmoore> yeah, there's lots of heritage on it
[16:12] <LazyLeopard> jonsowman: Yep, assuming the binary makes sense and doesn't need some hideous bit- or byte-order transformtion... ;)
[16:12] <jonsowman> LazyLeopard: yeh that's true
[16:12] <edmoore> it's still not a hard thing to do
[16:12] <jonsowman> i havent looked at the binary protocol on the EM-406
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> binary parsing wouldn't have helped at all
[16:12] <LazyLeopard> A Simple Matter Of Programming. ;)
[16:12] <SpeedEvil> as you'd still have had the same output procedure with the bug
[16:12] <jonsowman> SpeedEvil: fair point
[16:13] <edmoore> if the bug is in your atoi library, it would probably have bypassed it SpeedEvil
[16:13] <SpeedEvil> possibly.
[16:15] <edmoore> certainly - if the bug is in atoi and the binary means you don't need to use atoi
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> of course you can now put in different bugs - radians/degrees/...
[16:16] <MikeMc68> You guys should have a page on the wiki to list bugs and fixes
[16:17] <edmoore> that would be quick a cock-up
[16:17] <edmoore> we don't know what the was yet
[16:17] <SpeedEvil> I mean errors in the conversion, not ...
[16:18] <edmoore> and I can't think of any other bugs + fixes that we particularly run into ever. It's the the usual software development cycle.
[16:18] <edmoore> A lot of problems come from emi when the system is integrated though.
[16:19] <edmoore> especially GPS ones.
[16:19] <LazyLeopard> ...and you don't find those 'til you run everything together.
[16:19] <SpeedEvil> And insufficient testing of the integrated payloads.
[16:19] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:19] <edmoore> LazyLeopard: quite. soak testing is beneficial
[16:20] <MikeMc68> i plan on driving my payload around in the back of the car to do some testing
[16:20] <SpeedEvil> Making them in a sealed box, that you simply connect a power jack to to charge/test - and can seal the box, and shake it, then test it, would help _lots_
[16:20] <MikeMc68> as well as using the simulator
[16:20] <edmoore> the problem is that a lot of the gps emi issues don't reveal themselves until you are flying
[16:20] <MikeMc68> anybody know any pilots?
[16:21] <MikeMc68> They could take a payload up on a flight
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> But if everything worked, you wouldn't have nearly so much fun recovering :)
[16:21] <edmoore> i mean at sort of 9km+
[16:21] <MikeMc68> true - temperature etc.
[16:21] <LazyLeopard> You need a big box into which you could feed fake GPS satellite signals. ;)
[16:21] <edmoore> not temperature even
[16:21] <edmoore> I remember rocketboy had a gps which gave up around 8800m
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> LazyLeopard: yeah - that's not actually horribly hard
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> LazyLeopard: it's just annoying to code.
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[16:22] <edmoore> actually SpeedEvil I think creating fake gps in a box would be really quite hard to do
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: fake good GPS
[16:22] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: consider something simple like recording the bitstreams and dopplers from satellites, then simply replaying a burst with the sats skewed by doppler.
[16:23] <edmoore> anyway, this story is an interesting one for new people in terms of emi so I will tell it
[16:23] <edmoore> so rocketboy had a gps which started screwing up and going on random walks about about 8800m
[16:23] <LazyLeopard> Add some serious refrigeration and a vacuum pump and you could simulate quite a lot of a payload's ride...
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> I mean for the sort of simulator where precalculating a path on the computer taking a couple of hours is fine
[16:24] <LazyLeopard> ...butthere comes a point when just launching and testing "live" is cheaper.
[16:24] <edmoore> now gps works by having an internal dynamical model of the system (like a car or whatever) and comparing the signal it is getting with what the model says is possible. If they agree, fine, if they don't, it looks at the signal to noise ratio and decides whether or not to trust the model more than the signal or vice versa
[16:25] Action: SpeedEvil remembers http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Accuracy that he just wrote.
[16:25] <edmoore> so rocketboy had a pretty bad signal to noise ratio (due to flip micro cameras seriously interfereing with gps) so his gps decided that actually it probably wasn't higher than everest (which the internal model said was probably the max height - 8840m) and so it was going to say that the signal was obviously wrong and didn't have a fix
[16:25] <SpeedEvil> (but not very related)
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[16:26] <edmoore> whereas infact the gps signal was right, but it was also so noisy that the navigation engine onboard decided it was wrong
[16:26] <edmoore> that wouldn't have been more or less impossible to recreate on the ground
[16:26] <SpeedEvil> Being in a region where 99.9999% of GPSs aren't has problems.
[16:27] <edmoore> sorry, it *would* have been more or less impossible to recreate on the ground
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[16:29] <edmoore> so I guess design very cautiously and with good practice, aswell as testing. Hopefully the former will keep you in good stead when the latter hasn't been comprehensive enough
[16:29] <SpeedEvil> Is htere any open-source GPS transmitter code?
[16:30] <MikeMc68> hence having raw GPS data and not have an onboard MCU make the decisions is best
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> I haven't seen any in a cursory look.
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> MikeMc68: well...
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> MikeMc68: doing it that way means you sacrifice update rate somewhat.
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> MikeMc68: or increase baud - which means that the transmission is less reliable.
[16:30] <MikeMc68> yes but that is not an issue at the slow baud rates being transmitted here
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> Going from 20s/string to 60s/string would be.
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> sometimes at least.
[16:31] <SpeedEvil> Worstcase it means you have a lot more ground to cover.
[16:32] <edmoore> raw gps data?
[16:33] <edmoore> I'm not sure I follow - everything in the rocketboy story happened within the gps itself
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> yes - the recent failure would have been stopped by using raw GPS data.
[16:34] <SpeedEvil> Not all would.
[16:34] <edmoore> oh sure, but that means building a gps from scratch
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming MikeMc68 was meaning nmea :)
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[16:35] <edmoore> but nmea doesn't give you raw data. it's many layers separated from raw data.
[16:35] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[16:37] <MikeMc68> I mean having a GPS module that just spits out GPS strings and doesn't process them in anyway before hand
[16:37] <edmoore> what do you mean by processing?
[16:38] <MikeMc68> as in doesn't make any decisions with the data before sending it out of it's serial port
[16:39] <edmoore> it's not quite as black and white as that
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[16:39] <edmoore> the positions it gives out are guesses
[16:39] <edmoore> it's state estimation - kalman filters and the like
[16:39] <edmoore> that's true of all gps's
[16:41] <LazyLeopard> Kalman filters sometimes have a habit of getting fixed ideas and needing a kick, in my experience...
[16:41] <edmoore> as they data it is getting is necessarily imperfect (the signal from each sat is 15dB beneath the noise floor) it is designed from the ground up to give the most likely solution for where it is.
[16:43] <LazyLeopard> Trick is getting the code's balance right so that it knows when to start over (or at least seriously downgrade its confidence in its own correctness)...
[16:43] <edmoore> sure. but it can't divine that. It's as good as you design it.
[16:45] <edmoore> some of the better GPS's, like the ublox, have aerial modes where the model expects to be at up to 50km and can deal with up to 4G. That's a good start. But they're not cheapy units.
[16:45] <LazyLeopard> Indeed. I expect it's where a fair bit of the average GPSr's development budget goes... ;)
[16:45] <edmoore> most gps research is in fast locks and dealing with multipath nowadays.
[16:46] <LazyLeopard> Hmmm... Yeah. Those would be the problems most needing solving in urban street navigation situations.
[16:46] <edmoore> from an information theoretic POV having a more stringent internal model is a good thing, if you want to improve the performance of someone's satnav. But it doesn't help us
[16:47] <edmoore> so we need really good gps antenna installations to get a really good SNR so it *has* t have more confidence in the rf data
[16:49] <LazyLeopard> ...and most of the cheap GPS modules are aimed at ground-based vehicle-tracking types of uses.
[16:50] <edmoore> as i say, this is usually not a problem. we've had loads of flights where it's all fine. Let's not get too carried away based on a dataset of 1 flight from yesterday where the flight computer was knocked up at the last minute from random scrap bits in our lab that we would never ordinarily fly, for someone else because they previously had no means of in-flight tracking
[16:51] <edmoore> the rf transmission line was veroboard, for heaven's sake.
[16:54] <edmoore> so anyhoo, is anyone flying soon?
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[17:07] <jonsowman> edmoore: didnt james say something about possibly launching on saturday if the wx is good?
[17:07] <jonsowman> im sure someone said something, pretty sure it was james
[17:09] <edmoore> cool
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[17:26] <MikeMc68> I'll have to try and fix my dead radio before Sat then
[17:27] <russss> I'm in Newcastle on Saturday
[17:27] <russss> ONE DAY
[17:29] <MikeMc68> Ahh you'll receive it fine from there
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[17:31] <jcoxon> afternoon
[17:31] <jonsowman> hi jcoxon
[17:32] <jcoxon> ping mike
[17:32] <jcoxon> oops, MikeMc68
[17:32] <MikeMc68> hey
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[17:53] <MikeMc68> Is there an issue with servos not working at 30km ?
[17:53] <edmoore> grease can freeze, depending on lots of things
[17:53] <edmoore> and obviously there are some mitigation factors against that, like keeping them jittering
[17:54] <SpeedEvil> laurenceb has thought about servos - he's used them at altitude
[17:54] <edmoore> I've only every flown a metal geared one, so couldn't tell you if a plastic gearbox would hold up
[17:54] <MikeMc68> I was just thinking about an arm with a logo on the end of it - but not having it always there - a servo would move the arm into view - take a load of shots then return teh arm till it is out of teh way
[17:54] <MikeMc68> so it would move 90 degrees twice in one flight that's all
[17:55] <edmoore> cool
[17:55] <MikeMc68> But of course I don't want it to freeze in one position
[17:55] <edmoore> should be fine for that
[17:55] <edmoore> perhaps a good idea to have the arm counterbalanced
[17:55] <scotty> can you get a sounding balloon to reach 300+km?
[17:55] <edmoore> no.
[17:55] <edmoore> unless you put it in a rocket and fire it
[17:55] <MikeMc68> lol
[17:56] <scotty> wondering if you could ever get photage of near near space..
[17:56] <scotty> on the border
[17:56] <MikeMc68> Do the metal geared servos have grease in them or did you strip the grease out ?
[17:56] <scotty> of space literally
[17:56] <MikeMc68> yes - with a rocket
[17:56] <scotty> cool :)
[17:56] <MikeMc68> there are amateurs working on that
[17:56] <edmoore> kept the grease
[17:56] <Randomskk> 100km is the 'outer space' limit
[17:56] <scotty> Whats the most altitude a rocket can go to..
[17:56] <edmoore> i think it should be fine if it's lightly loaded
[17:56] <MikeMc68> ok
[17:57] <Randomskk> balloons will get to approx 35km ish?
[17:57] <Randomskk> but 35km is in fact near space
[17:58] <scotty> could u get a rocket to reach the thermosphere ?
[17:58] <scotty> realistly that is
[17:58] Action: SpeedEvil points to apollo 11.
[17:58] <Randomskk> :P
[17:58] <scotty> thats the near space i am talking about
[17:58] <russss> heh
[17:58] <SpeedEvil> laurenceb also has numbers for rockoons.
[17:58] <scotty> yeah shuttle height!
[17:59] <MikeMc68> yeah i'm pretty certain rockets have gone INTO space never mind near it
[17:59] <russss> scotty: there's always http://www.interorbital.com/TubeSat_1.htm ;)
[17:59] <SpeedEvil> I've got some doodles on A4 for a 4 stage orbital satellite launcher.
[17:59] <edmoore> re: the emails. there are plenty of times when rotation has been much slower. eg that nova 8 one, and we didn't make any efforts to minimise it. Understanding what causes the spin would be useful, but it would be incorrect to say that that is representative of what happens unless you take special measures.
[17:59] <russss> oh they put some more info on that tubesat page now.
[17:59] <scotty> wow california too!
[17:59] <MikeMc68> i guess a weathervane type attachment would go a way to reducing it
[17:59] <edmoore> 2. the caeras are powershot A560s. we use them both for video and stills like that stitch together panorama - check out the CHDK firmware which is a marvellous project to run scripts on canon cameras
[18:00] <jcoxon> bbl
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[18:00] <MikeMc68> yeah i've got an A570 and will be using the CHDK
[18:00] <MikeMc68> far easier than hacking remotes or switches
[18:00] <edmoore> agreed
[18:00] <edmoore> it's very nice
[18:00] <edmoore> a great little open source project
[18:00] <MikeMc68> actually i will probably have 2 cameras on my payload
[18:00] <scotty> your payload going well mike?
[18:00] <MikeMc68> I would like to have one pointing straight up to do a time-lapse of the balloon expanding
[18:01] <MikeMc68> or even continuous video
[18:01] <scotty> good idea :)
[18:01] <edmoore> that would be awesome
[18:01] <scotty> like to see your payload design to do that..
[18:01] <MikeMc68> Scotty - it's in R&D stage at the moment but I have 11 days annual leave end of March that is set aside for working on my payload for an early April launch
[18:01] <scotty> camera on the outside of the payload?
[18:01] <edmoore> perhaps timelapse and then switch to say 30 mins of video that you think burst should lie in?
[18:01] <edmoore> burst videos are awesome
[18:01] <scotty> nice!
[18:01] <MikeMc68> well from what I can see so far - cameras in open air seem to suffer less from frosting up
[18:02] <edmoore> i strongly agree that having the lens in the open is a good thing
[18:02] <scotty> yeah i guess, but how would u test it..
[18:02] <MikeMc68> edmoore: Yeah that might be a good idea
[18:02] <MikeMc68> test what?
[18:02] <edmoore> if you then build a snug foam housing for it, it will actually be hot to the touch
[18:02] <scotty> the lens on the outside at -56C
[18:02] <MikeMc68> the camera scripts can be tested on the ground
[18:02] <edmoore> like our canons were when we found nova 8 after landing - they generate a lot of heat processing
[18:02] <MikeMc68> scotty it's been done before many times
[18:02] <MikeMc68> very successfully
[18:02] <scotty> yeah :) i know i've seen vids
[18:03] <scotty> just looked a bit iced up at the end
[18:03] <MikeMc68> whereas those who have the glass or perspex windows (juxta, scottyjames) have suffered from frossting
[18:03] <scotty> true
[18:03] <scotty> getting things perfect is hard though
[18:03] <scotty> outside lens is a good idea :)
[18:03] <scotty> bbl
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[18:36] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:05] <MikeMc68> Question: Why was the tether yesterday so long?
[19:05] <MikeMc68> It was about 60 foot i think
[19:06] <G0MJW> Try climbing a 54ft tree?
[19:06] <MikeMc68> Is that the only reason though ?
[19:06] <G0MJW> No - I doubt it.
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[19:29] <edmoore> G0MJW: hi. Was having a think about practical horintally polarise antennas for balloons. Do you have any experience with big wheel antennas?
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[19:37] <LazyLeopard> Hehe... (from http://www.hamtv.com/wheel.html) "To date, Wheels have been created for every conceivable airborne, sea borne, space borne and terrestrial vehicle known to man (save the Frisbee)."
[19:37] <G0MJW> Big Wheel? No but I have found Halos to be useful antennas. That is what our beacons use. Mostly omnidirectional. But you probably want mixed polarisation
[19:37] <G0MJW> edmoore: Test greyness
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[19:40] <G0MJW> Also consider loop antenna. Incidentally you could build a CoaxialColinear to improve your signal strength. Might not be legal though. But it does not need a groundplane.
[19:45] <edmoore> rjharrison: did you fly the slim-jim?
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[19:59] <DanielRichman> Is the ft-817 still the (grossly generalised) swiss-army-knife first-radio?
[20:02] <edmoore> yup
[20:02] <edmoore> you won't be dissapointed
[20:02] <edmoore> unless you want to do FM transmission to the USA
[20:04] <DanielRichman> an upcoming birthday and the 20-years-dead rebirth of G4RSC (Reading School Club) have combined forces to try and get me to buy a rig
[20:05] <edmoore> I don't think you'll be dissapointed
[20:05] <edmoore> see if they'll buy the 2010 ARRL handbook too
[20:06] <edmoore> probably the best £30 I've spent recently
[20:06] <DanielRichman> I see
[20:12] <LazyLeopard> Re FT-817: Be prepared to navigate a lot of menus though... ;)
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[20:23] <jonsowman> anyone got the orion launch vid url handy?
[20:24] <edmoore> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xchspy_ukhas-church-hill-site-project-orio_webcam
[20:25] <jonsowman> cheers edmoore
[20:25] <jonsowman> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xchspy_ukhas-church-hill-site-project-orio_webcam
[20:25] <jonsowman> ha woops.
[20:31] <jonsowman> ping MikeMc68
[20:34] <G0MJW> ARRL handbook is very good value - FT817. I have two. Not used them much recently but they are useful devices. The power is very low but that is only an issue if you want to transmit.
[20:37] Nick change: Jos -> jos
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[20:57] <Laurenceb> sup
[20:58] <rjharrison> G0MJW ping
[20:59] <G0MJW> Pong
[20:59] <rjharrison> The ballooon teather length
[20:59] <rjharrison> It's long to reduce oscilations
[21:00] <rjharrison> and to give good distance for airflow around para
[21:00] <rjharrison> You also want some distance between balloon and para
[21:02] <G0MJW> It wasn't me asking.... but interesting. I had worked out the aerodynamic issue with the parachute. Unfortunately a long tether will reduce some oscillations but promote others, e.g. twisting.
[21:02] <rjharrison> MikeMc68 ^^^
[21:02] <rjharrison> G0MJW Sorry just read again
[21:03] <rjharrison> G0MJW Yep
[21:04] <rjharrison> edmoore I did fly the slim jim
[21:04] <edmoore> one of the big aerodynamic effects is the vortices being shed from the balloon in a somehat spiral manner during ascent
[21:05] <edmoore> this can induce a torque on the payload
[21:05] <rjharrison> I would like to test it on 70cm some time
[21:05] <rjharrison> edmoore, nice explaination
[21:06] <N900evil> fishing swivels?
[21:06] <edmoore> cool - slim-jim will be interesting to fly
[21:06] <edmoore> right bbl
[21:06] <edmoore> N900evil: something like that, though i fear their stiction would be large relative to what you're trying to do
[21:06] <N900evil> unsure if the torque is large enough to work.
[21:07] <edmoore> self aligning bearing would be what is wanted, I reckon
[21:07] <N900evil> maglev!
[21:07] Nick change: edmoore -> edmoore|away
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[21:11] <G0MJW> Spin stabilised with a despun section - like the early intelsats?
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> or Galileo
[21:13] <N900evil> Gallileo wasn't very good at spin.
[21:13] <N900evil> hence his problems with the church.
[21:13] <G0MJW> Nor at communicating his names spelling.
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> the Jupiter Probe
[21:14] <G0MJW> The GPS constellation
[21:14] <N900evil> It's a phone - and my spelling sucks anyway :)
[21:16] <MikeMc68> back
[21:16] <G0MJW> Has anyone tried using a magnet?
[21:16] <N900evil> hmm
[21:16] <N900evil> you need extended field
[21:17] <G0MJW> ? Compass?
[21:17] <N900evil> e*rths field is really tiny
[21:18] <MikeMc68> lol N900evil
[21:18] <G0MJW> It is not that tiny - 40nT
[21:18] <N900evil> sure. now compute the size of magnet you need to get - say - 1mnm
[21:19] <MikeMc68> mnmn
[21:19] <MikeMc68> doo doo do doo do
[21:20] <N900evil> R1?
[21:20] <jonsowman> MikeMc68: is your video footage of the launch up?
[21:20] <G0MJW> Please - I had forgotten that track
[21:21] <MikeMc68> jonsowman: Nope. Been in work all day
[21:22] <N900evil> MikeMc68, r1 was playing pink panther theme at same time, coincidentally.
[21:22] <MikeMc68> G0MJW: You and I are obviously old enough to be able remember that one
[21:22] <MikeMc68> lol
[21:22] <G0MJW> You can get some fairly strong magnets these days. If it is only a small force needed it may help.
[21:22] <jonsowman> MikeMc68: ok no probs, just wondering
[21:22] <MikeMc68> Nope that isn't what I was doing
[21:23] <G0MJW> And some are fortunate enough to not remember it. It could be worse. Black Lace.
[21:23] <N900evil> G0MJW, but they cause very little global torque.
[21:24] <MikeMc68> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUeVAkzEas&feature=related
[21:24] <N900evil> against the field of eafrth.
[21:25] <N900evil> I would here submit results of testing.
[21:25] <N900evil> but I'm in bed, and it's 5c outside.
[21:25] <N900evil> Actually, 6.
[21:28] <G0MJW> UoSATs used magnetic torquing but over a long time period in orbit. As the payload is not in orbit aerodynamics are likely to dominate. Perhaps some fluid damping. Anyway not a big problem but an interesting one.
[21:28] <N900evil> yes. I've done tests on those.
[21:29] <N900evil> for those.
[21:29] <G0MJW> Revenge mode: Trio. Da Da Da.
[21:29] <MikeMc68> I loved Trio's - i miss them
[21:29] <MikeMc68> :(
[21:29] <G0MJW> Did they work?
[21:29] <MikeMc68> The Trio's? Oh yes
[21:30] <N900evil> geting enough force to do - say 20rpm/hour delta isn't quite trivial.
[21:30] <N900evil> for sats you need nowhere near that.
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[21:31] <G0MJW> So it would require a large sail then.
[21:33] <G0MJW> It certainly is an interesting problem. Large satellites use gas jets to dump angular momentum. I take it that is out of the question. Far too complicated control loop and extra weight.
[21:34] <MikeMc68> can of air freshener and a servo to press the top
[21:34] <N900evil> sail is trivial
[21:34] <N900evil> or a couple of 40mm compluter fand
[21:34] <N900evil> s
[21:34] <G0MJW> Not a CFC can!
[21:35] <N900evil> and a compass
[21:36] <G0MJW> Not much air - a larger fan perhaps - or out on a boom. Only needs one if it can go backwards. Helicopter style.
[21:38] <N900evil> yeah - you could glue larger props to the fans
[21:40] <G0MJW> Do any of these payloads have uplinks?
[21:40] <N900evil> no.
[21:41] <N900evil> some tests have been done
[21:41] <MikeMc68> some have had uplinks
[21:44] <Jasperw> what about post processing the video to remove the spin? turning it into low frame rate fish eye?
[21:44] <Jasperw> or something like the huygens lander visualisation?
[21:45] <N900evil> also been done
[21:45] <N900evil> there are pansos on the wiki
[21:45] <G0MJW> Wiki?
[21:46] <Jasperw> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ukDbPi_0Gw&feature=related
[21:46] <N900evil> see the topic
[21:46] <Jasperw> ^^ there is a better high res version out there, can't find it now
[21:47] <G0MJW> "&fmt=18"ÿ at the end of the URL
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[22:00] <SpeedEvil> Actually - it's not as bad as I suspected.
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> A 50mm*8mm rare-earth magnet in a 280g hemisphere oscillates at 28hz
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> 1/28hz
[22:01] <SpeedEvil> 280g 10cm dia
[22:02] <G0MJW> It would need damping naturally.
[22:02] <G0MJW> Perhaps you could use custard?
[22:03] <G0MJW> (thixotropic)
[22:04] <Lunar_Lander> why are you discussing combat gas?
[22:04] <G0MJW> That is Mustard!
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[22:05] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> I make that a moment of inertia of the order of .00048m^2 kg
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> umm...
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> I make that on the order of 30 micronewtonmeters
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> a torque
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> actually no - probably more like 60.
[22:09] <SpeedEvil> peak
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> A 100g magnet is in principle possible to use for stabilisation.
[22:12] <SpeedEvil> But you will need some torque control mechanism so it doesn't become unlocked.
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> I suspect a rather simpler and lighter option is two magnets, with a pin and a hard thing in between them, on the string.
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[23:14] <MikeMc68> night all
[23:14] <jonsowman> night MikeMc68
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[23:24] <scotty> hi all
[23:25] <scotty> i want to Add Orion to the UKHAS project lists..how can i do this..i am logged in
[23:25] <scotty> Thanks in advance
[23:26] <edmoore|away> "edit this page"
[23:26] Nick change: edmoore|away -> edmoore
[23:26] <scotty> ah cheers
[23:27] <scotty> once i add Orion to the UK ones, how do i make a new page for Orion?
[23:27] <scotty> Sorry i dont know much about wiki code
[23:27] <scotty> :(
[23:28] <scotty> cheers
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[23:55] <natrium42> o\
[23:56] <jonsowman> hi natrium42
[23:56] <natrium42> hi jon
[23:57] <jonsowman> hows things?
[00:00] --- Tue Mar 9 2010