highaltitude.log.20100304

[00:03] Jasperw (~jasperw@client-81-100-31-157.cht-bng-015.adsl.virginmedia.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving.
[00:09] DoYouKnow (~c0cb88fe@gateway/web/freenode/x-xfswnydloeccumyc) joined #highaltitude.
[00:13] <DoYouKnow> natrium42!!!
[00:13] <DoYouKnow> love your site
[00:13] <DoYouKnow> have there been any attempts to photograph stars in they daytime with high altitude ballooning?
[00:13] <DoYouKnow> *the daytime
[00:18] <DoYouKnow> ah, found it
[00:18] <DoYouKnow> http://www.thelimitisinfinity.com/
[00:22] DoYouKnow (~c0cb88fe@gateway/web/freenode/x-xfswnydloeccumyc) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[00:23] <adhoc> what ever is on that site, the flash seems to be broken =(
[00:29] donaldj (~donaldj@bas2-london14-1096550952.dsl.bell.ca) joined #highaltitude.
[00:31] LazyLeopard (~irc-clien@chocky.demon.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Bye
[00:47] darknesslord_ (~darknessl@189.164.184.211) joined #highaltitude.
[01:09] darknesslord_ (~darknessl@189.164.184.211) left irc: Quit: darknesslord_
[01:09] darknesslord_ (~darknessl@189.164.184.211) joined #highaltitude.
[01:10] darknesslord_ (~darknessl@189.164.184.211) left irc: Client Quit
[01:21] ProjectCirrus (rhspm@cpc1-belf9-0-0-cust338.belf.cable.ntl.com) left #highaltitude.
[01:35] donaldj (~donaldj@bas2-london14-1096550952.dsl.bell.ca) left irc: Quit: Leaving...
[03:38] jasonb (~jasonb@dsl027-180-244.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[03:53] DoYouKnow (~michael@adsl-75-4-147-33.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) joined #highaltitude.
[03:53] <DoYouKnow> hello
[03:56] jasonb (~jasonb@m420536d0.tmodns.net) joined #highaltitude.
[04:11] natrium42 (~root@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[04:27] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[04:27] <natrium42> DoYouKnow, hi
[04:31] jasonb (~jasonb@m420536d0.tmodns.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[06:24] Spetznaz (~spetznaz@195.234.148.29) joined #highaltitude.
[06:30] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[06:31] ssapphiree (~Love@ppp91-78-231-82.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #highaltitude.
[06:35] natrium42 (~root@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[06:46] <MikeMc68> DoYouKNow: It is unlikely you would ever get permission to launch near an airport
[07:09] <DoYouKnow> ok
[07:19] <DoYouKnow> here, below 3 lbs (I think, it's either that or 4), is unregulated
[07:19] <DoYouKnow> if I understand correctly
[07:20] <DoYouKnow> but launching near an airport is probably a bad idea
[07:20] <DoYouKnow> I'd have to go a little bit out
[07:20] <DoYouKnow> how far out?
[07:20] Simon-MPFH (~simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[07:21] <SpeedEvil> Ask the airport.
[07:21] <SpeedEvil> what country are yoiu in?
[07:21] <DoYouKnow> The United States
[07:21] <SpeedEvil> ah.
[07:21] G8DSU (~chatzilla@cpc3-mort4-0-0-cust192.croy.cable.virginmedia.com) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[07:22] jcoxon (~jcoxon@host81-129-141-46.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[07:22] <rjharrison> morning jcoxon
[07:22] <rjharrison> Just setting of for work
[07:22] <SpeedEvil> DoYouKnow: IIRC there is also a rule about maximum balloon diameter at any time during flight - FAA rule - but I'm not sure about the legality.
[07:22] <rjharrison> so must dash
[07:22] <rjharrison> nice GPS on SF BTW
[07:23] <jcoxon> morning rjharrison
[07:23] Action: rjharrison nods to SpeedEvil
[07:23] <jcoxon> yeah it looks okay
[07:23] <rjharrison> Working on xml generator atm
[07:23] <rjharrison> will let you know when it's ready for teating
[07:23] <rjharrison> testing
[07:23] <DoYouKnow> SpeedEvil, what's the point of that rule?
[07:23] <DoYouKnow> wouldn't that be reached around 100,000 ft?
[07:23] rjharrison (~rharrison@62.49.185.11) left irc:
[07:24] <DoYouKnow> well, I guess depending on how much you fill it
[07:24] <jcoxon> DoYouKnow, based in the states?
[07:24] <DoYouKnow> yeah
[07:24] <DoYouKnow> right jcoxon
[07:24] <jcoxon> http://www.eoss.org/pubs/far_annotated.htm
[07:25] <jcoxon> that should help with legalities etc
[07:33] <DoYouKnow> some of that stuff is a lot more strict than what I read recently
[07:34] <DoYouKnow> but it makes sense
[07:35] <DoYouKnow> for example, I remember reading it's ok for a balloon to fly over restricted airspace as long as its above 60,000 ft
[07:38] <jcoxon> its not easy to get your head around
[07:39] <jcoxon> lots of people here are from the UK where its completely different
[07:40] <DoYouKnow> is it easier in the UK?
[07:41] <DoYouKnow> for now I think I'll just enjoy the video and pictures of other people who've done this
[07:42] <jcoxon> DoYouKnow, its perhaps a bit clearer here - we have to get permission to launch - but once you've got that you are all set
[07:42] <jcoxon> the rules are less strict but i guess a lot of that is to do with it being less developed
[07:42] <jcoxon> but on the other hand we have far more strict radio rules
[07:46] junderwood (~John@adsl.jcu.me.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[07:47] <juxta_> hi all
[07:49] <MikeMc68> hey
[07:53] <juxta_> started to get my payload ready for another launch :)
[07:53] <MikeMc68> great :D
[07:53] <MikeMc68> What have you adjusted with regard to the camera ?
[07:54] <juxta_> no camera this time, wanting to do some testing with telemetry and such
[07:55] <jcoxon> juxta_, no camera!
[07:55] <juxta_> not this time, 200g ballon ;)
[07:55] <juxta_> camera on the next one :)
[07:56] <MikeMc68> WHAT!!??!
[07:58] <juxta_> I have some helium left in a tank
[07:59] <juxta_> well, vk5zsn does
[07:59] <juxta_> we don't know quite how muich though
[07:59] <juxta_> certainly not enough for a big balloon though
[07:59] <juxta_> so we'll do a little one, then a bigger one another time
[08:00] <juxta_> I want to play with faster telemetry jcoxon, i will be ramping up the telem speed at some alt thresholds
[08:01] <MikeMc68> why?
[08:02] <juxta_> just to see what'll work really :)
[08:04] <jcoxon> juxta_, cool cool
[08:05] <jcoxon> we should get hellschriber working on the beacon as well
[08:07] <juxta_> jcoxon: hmm - is it used much?
[08:07] <juxta_> jcoxon: I was going to ask you where I could find some info on that checksum I've seen used on some of the CUSF flights
[08:08] <jcoxon> http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:dlistener
[08:08] <jcoxon> juxta_, its not used much but is so cool
[08:09] <jcoxon> and can be done on a CW beacon
[08:09] <juxta_> ah - not the XOR checksum, the longer, 4 byte one
[08:10] <jcoxon> oh need to speak to rjh about that
[08:11] <juxta_> alrighty
[08:11] <natrium42> ed said that they used fletcher's algorithm
[08:12] <jcoxon> yeah, but i'm not sure if he has also got the CRC other one working
[08:13] ssapphiree (~Love@ppp91-78-231-82.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[08:14] <juxta_> I think i will end up with burst at around 20-25km
[08:15] <jcoxon> 200g? yeah thats about right
[08:16] <jcoxon> juxta_, get a nice day and then have a slow ascent rate
[08:16] <jcoxon> will give you lots of time to test telem etc
[08:16] <juxta_> yeah
[08:17] b3cft (~abrock@nat/yahoo/x-lwwxeopboufeiehg) joined #highaltitude.
[08:17] <juxta_> I'm launching mon jcoxon :)
[08:17] <jcoxon> fingers crossed that its a nice day :-p
[08:17] <juxta_> hehe
[08:17] <juxta_> well it shoudlnt be too bad
[08:17] <juxta_> wind is going the right direction at least
[08:17] <natrium42> nn
[08:17] natrium42 (~root@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Quit: My other car is a cdr.
[08:18] <juxta_> funny thing is that that with the lower alt, I will get blown further
[08:18] <juxta_> we seem to get reversing winds above a certain point
[08:19] <jcoxon> yeah that happens quite a bit here
[08:19] <jcoxon> right bbl
[08:19] jcoxon (~jcoxon@host81-129-141-46.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[08:27] <juxta_> MikeMc68: still about?
[08:27] <jonsowman> juxta_: launching this coming monday?
[08:28] <MikeMc68> yep
[08:28] <jonsowman> as in the 8th?
[08:28] <juxta_> jonsowman: yep, the 8th
[08:29] <juxta_> MikeMc68: this launch will be based on the old board again, the new one's not ready - so it's an arduino again
[08:29] <jonsowman> nice one, where from?
[08:29] <juxta_> I etched a custom shield for the radiometrix and GPS etc though
[08:29] <MikeMc68> cool
[08:29] <juxta_> South Australia jonsowman
[08:29] <jonsowman> ah yes forgot you're down there juxta_ :)
[08:30] <juxta_> hehe
[08:30] <juxta_> did you end up persuing the FSA03 MikeMc68?
[08:30] <MikeMc68> yes i've sent several emails to Falcom
[08:30] <juxta_> oh nice
[08:30] <MikeMc68> i'm looking at buying a whole bunch of them
[08:30] <juxta_> great!
[08:31] <MikeMc68> if they'll let me
[08:31] <juxta_> ahh right, do they have volume limits etc?
[08:32] <MikeMc68> probably
[08:32] <MikeMc68> i'll just have to wait to hear what they say
[09:50] icez (~icez@unaffiliated/icez) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[10:30] terry (~tjd@74.109.233.220.static.exetel.com.au) joined #highaltitude.
[10:31] <terry> Hi. Does anyone have any good solutions to stopping condensation in cameras?
[10:34] <SpeedEvil> heat them to beyond the dew point
[10:34] <russss> yeah heating is the best way I think
[10:35] <russss> seems that you don't usually get condensation *in* cameras, though, because they're quite warm inside
[10:35] <SpeedEvil> Or total sealing, and a dry gas purge
[10:35] <russss> the problem seems to to be condensation/icing if you use a sealed payload
[10:38] <terry> I see.
[10:39] <terry> Any recommendations for what to use for heating?
[10:39] <terry> So it's more condensation *on* the camera that is the problem?
[10:42] <russss> the camera should heat itself
[10:42] <russss> some people have sealed payloads with a glass filter to seal where the camera looks out, and that's prone to condensation
[10:43] <russss> but you don't need to do that.
[10:43] <terry> I see.
[10:43] <russss> someone who knows more than me should write a wiki page about this
[10:43] <terry> So it should be ok to leave the camera exposed to outside air?
[10:43] <russss> yeah
[10:44] <russss> I think generally any condensation/ice which does form will sublime off at altitude
[10:44] <terry> it would be very helpful to have a community maintained resource of that nature
[10:44] <terry> I hate to think how much reinventing of the wheel I'm at risk of doing.
[10:44] <russss> well we have http://ukhas.org.uk/ but I don't think there's anything about cameras on there :)
[10:44] <terry> thanks, I'll check that out.
[10:47] <terry> ok, that looks like a useful resource.
[10:49] <terry> Other than the obvious volatile gas risk, who can tell me why I shouldn't use hydrogen?
[10:49] <russss> literally just that I think
[10:49] <terry> have you ever used H?
[10:49] <MikeMc68> it would be good to have a wiki entry about cameras - including naybe how to use the Canon SDK and how to mount them on servos, etc.
[10:50] <russss> I don't know of anyone who's used H2
[10:50] <terry> I see.
[10:50] <terry> It is much cheaper here in .au.
[10:50] <terry> an order of magnitude cheaper.
[10:50] <russss> there is a question about it at the bottom of this page http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
[10:51] <MikeMc68> dangerous though
[10:51] <russss> yeah I wonder if that might fall foul of some air navigation regulations.
[10:52] <russss> cutdown would be easy ;)
[10:52] <terry> it doesn't appear to here. The CAA doesn't seem to care. They're more worried about the mass of the payload.
[10:54] <juxta_> hey terry
[10:55] <terry> gday
[10:55] <juxta_> another terry from .au eh? :)
[10:55] <terry> juxta_: are you Terry?
[10:55] <juxta_> yeah
[10:55] <russss> heh
[10:56] <terry> gday.
[10:56] <terry> juxta_: are you anyone I know?
[10:56] <juxta_> I launched from Adelaide recently
[10:56] <juxta_> the blog is up at projecthorus.org
[10:56] <terry> right, adhoc said you'd be here.
[10:56] <juxta_> ahh
[10:56] <juxta_> where abouts are you based? Adl too?
[10:56] <terry> No, Sydney-based.
[10:57] <juxta_> ah ok
[10:57] <juxta_> I'll be launching another balloon on Monday, shame you're not a local or you could come down ;p
[10:57] <terry> indeed.
[10:58] <juxta_> next time I'll be trying my cameras open to the air
[10:58] <terry> I've been meaning to do this for quite some time. I've finally exceeded the activation threshold :) More particularly I've found some other locals who are interested too.
[10:58] <juxta_> to avoid condensation
[10:58] <juxta_> oh nice work
[10:58] <juxta_> have you saught CASA approval yet?
[10:58] <terry> juxta_: yeah, in fact it was your project that got me thinking about the whole issue.
[10:58] <juxta_> sought*
[10:58] <terry> juxta_: I haven't personally, but one of our team have been talking to them.
[10:59] <juxta_> ah righto
[10:59] <juxta_> do you know who they were dealing with?
[10:59] <juxta_> I had to deal with a guy in Perth
[10:59] <terry> no I don't I'm sorry.
[10:59] <terry> I think they were talking to Canberra for some reason.
[10:59] <juxta_> our laws suck
[11:00] <juxta_> yeah, CASA HQ is in Canberra
[11:00] Laurenceb (~laurence@host81-157-248-47.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[11:00] <terry> Do they? It all sounded pretty liberal the way it was described to me.
[11:00] <juxta_> if you read the act etc it sounds nice
[11:00] <juxta_> but one thing they dont make clear in the act is that it only applies to uncontrolled airspace
[11:00] <terry> I see.
[11:00] <terry> That's interesting.
[11:01] <terry> Being Sydney-based we were planning on getting the hell inland anyway :)
[11:01] <juxta_> if you want to fly in controlled airspace (anything above 24,500 feet anywhere in aus airspace, often lower) you need official clearance
[11:01] <terry> I could barely put up a radio tower here without scraping the paint off a 747
[11:01] <juxta_> hehe
[11:03] <juxta_> basically what you have to get is an instrument (document) that grants you permission to launch from a specific site, once you have that you're set
[11:03] <terry> juxta_: I'm pretty sure we've got that process in motion. It's not my responsibility .. we're dividing the labour up between us, but my feeling is that that is being worked through.
[11:03] <juxta_> ah good-o
[11:03] <terry> juxta_: right. That'll be interesting. We haven't decided on a site yet.
[11:03] <juxta_> yeah - that's the approach I took, i just went in and asked them some questions
[11:04] <juxta_> they seemed to assume I was a pilot though, and I got a telling off for suggesting a site which happened to be in military airspace
[11:04] <juxta_> (whoops)
[11:04] <terry> So tell me, what happens if you do it without approval and somehow get caught?
[11:04] <juxta_> well, I guess you're probably violating a bunch of the codes in the act
[11:04] <terry> Not that I'm planning on doing that of course. But I'm sure some people must.
[11:04] <juxta_> from memory each of them is about 50 penalty units
[11:04] <juxta_> so it could be a few hundred pentalty units
[11:05] <juxta_> each penalty unit is about $110 here I think
[11:05] <juxta_> (assuming you got prosecuted of course, the likely situation is that nothing would happen)
[11:05] <terry> right, so a whopping fine, a good smack around the head... so long as you don't kill anybody.
[11:06] <terry> When the CASA investigators are pulling bits of your payload from a crashed 747 engine things are more serious I presume
[11:06] <juxta_> haha
[11:06] <juxta_> most likely
[11:06] <russss> juxta_: you should put those details on here: http://ukhas.org.uk/general:restrictions_legality
[11:06] <juxta_> russss: ok, will do
[11:06] <russss> useful to have it written down
[11:06] Action: russss is now the wiki nazi
[11:06] <juxta_> agreed
[11:06] <juxta_> hehe
[11:07] <terry> We're planning at least two launches. The first is a learning exercise and will be simple/barebones.
[11:07] <terry> The second will be more ambitious.
[11:07] <juxta_> :)
[11:08] <terry> So, I figure the first one will be fantastically successful and the second one will fail somehow :)
[11:08] <juxta_> haha
[11:08] <SpeedEvil> As a simple measure - ideally you'd like your payload to be no more damaging than a duck.
[11:08] <terry> So I suspect we'll do a third.
[11:09] <terry> SpeedEvil: reminds of that story floating around the net .. a thawed duck or a frozen one?
[11:09] <terry> I'll brb, I have to turn the kids lights out.
[11:14] Simon-MPFH (~simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[11:24] Hiena (~Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) joined #highaltitude.
[11:29] <MikeMc68> Woohoo!! I'm famous (sort of)
[11:29] <MikeMc68> Got 3 of my astronomical images published in a book
[11:30] <juxta_> well done MikeMc68
[11:31] <MikeMc68> :D
[11:36] <MikeMc68> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rainbow-Sky-Exploration-Practical-Astronomy/dp/1441910522/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267221902&sr=1-2
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> Congrats!
[11:40] Action: SpeedEvil is only mentioned in a patent.
[11:44] <MikeMc68> lol
[11:49] Laurenceb (~laurence@host81-157-248-47.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
[12:03] ssapphiree (~Love@91.78.231.82) joined #highaltitude.
[12:17] ssapphiree (~Love@91.78.231.82) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[12:17] rjmunro (~chatzilla@87.127.91.51) joined #highaltitude.
[12:40] Jasperw (~jasperw@skeleton2.london.iofc.org) joined #highaltitude.
[13:31] <MikeMc68> Ordered an FSA03 :D
[14:01] b3cft (~abrock@nat/yahoo/x-lwwxeopboufeiehg) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[14:16] Lunar_Lander (~lunar_lan@p54887BA5.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[14:16] <Lunar_Lander> hello people
[14:18] <SpeedEvil> lo
[14:18] <Lunar_Lander> I'd need some help
[14:19] <Lunar_Lander> I have some biologists who would like to get their bacteria sampler up into the stratosphere
[14:19] <Lunar_Lander> they want to know what the probability is that it will come down intact and will be recovered
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> stratosphere = ?
[14:19] Jasperw (~jasperw@skeleton2.london.iofc.org) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Of the last ~10 launches from the UK - from memory 1 was lost
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> that's from this group
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> if you take special care - I'd say >90%
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> if you have the aid of someone with a clue, and pick a good day
[14:20] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> I know laurencb has designed - at least partially - an atmospheric sampler
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> So he may have input
[14:21] <Lunar_Lander> I'd say the probability of coming down intact is 100% because I can't remember a chute malfunction
[14:21] <Lunar_Lander> and than it is only the question to find the landed package
[14:22] <SpeedEvil> ocean or car
[14:22] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[14:23] <Lunar_Lander> but I figured out with the predictor that a balloon would most probably always travel eastward
[14:23] Jasperw (~jasperw@skeleton2.london.iofc.org) joined #highaltitude.
[14:23] <Lunar_Lander> away from the sea
[14:23] <juxta_> Lunar_Lander: my chute got tangled the other day :)
[14:23] <juxta_> everything was OK though
[14:23] <Lunar_Lander> yeah :P
[14:24] <Lunar_Lander> the payload is fortunatly not like Soyuz 1
[14:27] <russss> there was that nasa sample-return probe whose parachute failed to deploy, they were going to pluck it out of the air with a helicopter but it ended up slamming into the desert
[14:27] <russss> I can't remember which one it was
[14:27] <Lunar_Lander> yeah, Genesis
[14:27] <russss> they still managed to get some science out of it though
[14:27] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[14:28] <Lunar_Lander> or on Apollo 15 where one of three chutes failed
[14:28] Action: SpeedEvil remembers smashed arctic stratotelescope data recovery
[14:28] <russss> it amuses me that they spent so much effort trying to recover it as gently as possible, and then they end up saying "oh well, that'll do I guess."
[14:28] <Lunar_Lander> xD!
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Official-Petition-to-Establish-Hella-as-the-SI-Prefix-for-1027/277479937276?v=info
[14:29] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[14:29] <Lunar_Lander> do they then want to call 10^-27 "hello-"
[14:29] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[14:30] <russss> "oops" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Genesis_crash_site_scenery.jpg
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> hellayes.
[14:31] <Lunar_Lander> that bag like thing besides the red helicopter
[14:31] <Lunar_Lander> that's the pilot thinking: "Epic Fail"
[14:35] <MikeMc68> didn't make much of a splat considering the height it dropped from
[14:42] <russss> apparently it was going about 200mph at that point, heh
[14:52] DoYouKnow (~michael@adsl-75-4-147-33.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[15:08] <juxta_> hmm
[15:08] <juxta_> I built an AVR programmer board, but when I connect my programmer to it, avrdude doesnt see the chip :(
[15:08] <Lunar_Lander> thansks for the tip with laurenceb btw :)=
[15:08] <Lunar_Lander> *:)
[15:09] <russss> I managed to get avrdude working with our Bus Pirates, which is pretty cool
[15:09] <russss> cheap multipurpose programmer
[15:11] <MikeMc68> i have a bus pirate on its way from china
[15:22] <juxta_> does an atmega need a crystal connected to be prgrammed?
[15:25] <scottyjames> Does anyone have contact with the churchill cambridge launch site?
[15:26] <russss> juxta_: most of them have internal oscillators don't they?
[15:26] <juxta_> russss: yeah, if the fuses are set right
[15:26] <russss> scottyjames: you probably want edmoore I think, but he's not here
[15:27] <russss> scottyjames: if you linger around he'll turn up
[15:27] <scottyjames> are ok, whats his name on her?
[15:27] <scottyjames> here*
[15:27] <russss> it's edmoore :)
[15:27] <scottyjames> sorry
[15:27] <scottyjames> oh cool
[15:27] <scottyjames> cheers
[15:28] Spetznaz (~spetznaz@195.234.148.29) left irc:
[15:28] <russss> alternatively there are contact details here http://www.srcf.ucam.org/cuspaceflight/contact.php
[15:29] <juxta_> hmm
[15:29] <juxta_> stupid thing won't program
[15:29] <juxta_> but I can't see that I've done anything wrong
[15:31] <MikeMc68> you don't need a crystal with the right fuse settings to use the internal oscilattor
[15:31] <russss> yeah, the question is will it let you program it if it's configured for an external oscillator
[15:32] <MikeMc68> i think it needs the oscillator for the data transfer
[15:32] <juxta_> I think it should
[15:32] <juxta_> one of the lines in the ISP breakout is a clock line
[15:32] <MikeMc68> try it
[16:02] <juxta_> MikeMc68: you were right :)
[16:02] <juxta_> a crystal did the trick
[16:07] JohnTed (unstable@tor/regular/sid) left #highaltitude.
[16:08] edmoore (~836f0142@gateway/web/freenode/x-fwalilewmqcofjzl) joined #highaltitude.
[16:08] <edmoore> hi scottyjames
[16:09] <Lunar_Lander> hi edmoore
[16:11] <edmoore> hi Lunar_Lander
[16:18] sbasuita (~sbasuita@unaffiliated/drebellion) joined #highaltitude.
[16:29] <MikeMc68> :)
[16:31] juxta_ (fourtytwo@ppp118-210-194-250.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[16:33] edmoore (~836f0142@gateway/web/freenode/x-fwalilewmqcofjzl) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[16:34] jcoxon (~jcoxon@host81-129-141-46.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[16:35] scottyjames (~sj86@94-195-51-124.zone9.bethere.co.uk) left irc: Ping timeout: 264 seconds
[16:38] scotty (~sj86@94-195-51-124.zone9.bethere.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[16:42] <jcoxon> evening all
[16:44] <russss> hi
[16:44] <jonsowman> hi jcoxon
[16:50] <jcoxon> hey russss jonsowman
[16:50] <MikeMc68> hey
[16:50] <jcoxon> oh hey mike
[16:50] <jcoxon> MikeMc68,
[16:52] <Lunar_Lander> hi jcoxon
[16:52] <jcoxon> :-)
[16:52] <Lunar_Lander> I got some biologists interested in my project
[16:55] <MikeMc68> I'm sending a vial of Tardigrades up in my payload
[16:55] <jcoxon> Lunar_Lander, oooo cool
[16:55] <jcoxon> MikeMc68, hows the GPS hunt going?
[16:55] <MikeMc68> courtesy of a friend of mine who is doing that experiment to send up
[16:55] <MikeMc68> James I haven't heard back from Falcom yet
[16:55] <jcoxon> MikeMc68, i was also thinking perhaps we could put together an 'arduino' flight board
[16:55] <MikeMc68> I bought a single FSA03 for myself from Sequoia
[16:56] <MikeMc68> Yeah i was thinking today of making a minimal kit to sell for HAB enthusiasts
[16:56] <MikeMc68> then they just need to add a camera, receiver, etc.
[16:56] <MikeMc68> they can get the consumables from Rocketboy
[16:56] <jcoxon> hmmmm i'm still deciding what to do about a gps
[16:57] <jcoxon> i reckon i should dump the lassen and get a ublox for BH5
[16:57] <MikeMc68> I think it is worth it for such a risky long flight
[16:57] <jcoxon> yeah
[16:57] DanielRichman (~DanielRic@unaffiliated/danielrichman) joined #highaltitude.
[16:58] <jcoxon> my current thinking is to get that last fsa03
[16:58] <jcoxon> and directly solder to it rather then source a breakout board
[16:58] <MikeMc68> yep
[16:58] <MikeMc68> it's got cut outs round the edge
[16:58] <MikeMc68> and one side is flat -
[16:58] <MikeMc68> so it will easily solder directly to a PCB
[16:59] <MikeMc68> or even a group of headers
[16:59] <Lunar_Lander> thanks jcoxon :)
[16:59] Simon-MPFH (~simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[17:00] <jcoxon> yeah could put some female headers on it to make it interface well
[17:00] <jcoxon> any idea on the spacing?
[17:00] <MikeMc68> 3mm
[17:01] <MikeMc68> on the sides
[17:01] <MikeMc68> 4.7mm on the end
[17:01] <MikeMc68> http://www.falcom.de/uploads/media/AppNote_FSA03_rev_1.0.2.pdf
[17:02] <MikeMc68> only 8 of the 13 needs to be connected
[17:02] <MikeMc68> there is a nice pad design in that document for putting directly onto the PCB
[17:03] jasonb (~jasonb@m470536d0.tmodns.net) joined #highaltitude.
[17:03] <jcoxon> hehe not sure i can wait for a pcb to be made
[17:04] <jcoxon> guess i could custom one
[17:04] <MikeMc68> just use stripboard
[17:04] <jcoxon> yeah
[17:04] <jcoxon> will think about getting one next week - have made my hab purchasing for the week - best to spread it out :-p
[17:04] <DanielRichman> <jcoxon> ... get that last fsa03 - as in, you only have one left in your draw of stuff or there's only one left at the uk shop (forget name)?
[17:05] <MikeMc68> Sequoia have 2 left in stock
[17:06] <jcoxon> oh i don't own one
[17:07] <DanielRichman> ok
[17:08] <DanielRichman> are they good?
[17:08] <DanielRichman> I've seen the specs and all, but...
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> I have a question on the balloon burst spreadsheet
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> does it stop to work if I put in an impossible payloadß
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> *payload?
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> try it
[17:11] <Lunar_Lander> I tried
[17:11] <SpeedEvil> And what do you mean by impossible?
[17:11] <Lunar_Lander> a payload that is too heavy for the balloon to lift
[17:12] <DanielRichman> hmm I reckon our school's bubbleetch wound be accurate enough to make a fsa breakout... but hten again stripboard would also do the trick
[17:12] <Lunar_Lander> ah I just see
[17:12] <Lunar_Lander> if I put in a balloon and payload weight bigger than "Gross Lift" it craps out
[17:13] <Lunar_Lander> and free lift now does not mean "Payload capacity"?
[17:13] <Lunar_Lander> only excess lifting foce
[17:13] <Lunar_Lander> *force
[17:13] icez (~icez@unaffiliated/icez) joined #highaltitude.
[17:17] <DanielRichman> what I really need is one of these: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=544 from a UK supplier
[17:19] jasonb (~jasonb@m470536d0.tmodns.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> why?
[17:21] <SpeedEvil> Take a microSD-SD converter, and a soldering iron.
[17:22] <DanielRichman> ugh gold plates
[17:22] <DanielRichman> but fair enough
[17:23] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, i'm tempted to do a sparkfun order soon
[17:23] <SpeedEvil> you can solder to gold - then wipe the solder off, and the result is lots more solderable and stable
[17:24] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, when it's nearer the time remind me; however I'll have probably come to my senses by then and won't need one
[17:24] <DanielRichman> SpeedEvil, ok
[17:25] <MikeMc68> jcoxon
[17:25] <MikeMc68> esawdust have an Eagle Library for the FSA03
[17:25] <MikeMc68> you just need to email them and they will send it to you
[17:26] <DanielRichman> Would they send it if you email them and say "Hi, I'm buying a FSA03 from another shop, can has your work?"
[17:26] <DanielRichman> MikeMc68, do you have the library?
[17:26] <jcoxon> juxta has it
[17:26] <MikeMc68> well i just emailed them and asked for it and he just sent it to me
[17:29] <DanielRichman> MikeMc68, can you pass it on to me if I pm you my email? :)
[17:29] <MikeMc68> sure
[17:30] <DanielRichman> thanks :)
[17:30] <jcoxon> MikeMc68, yeah i saw that
[17:30] <jcoxon> MikeMc68, basically in my GPS saga i'm going to hold off getting anything - wait and see if falcom reply to you and then get something perhaps next week
[17:30] <jcoxon> bbl
[17:30] jcoxon (~jcoxon@host81-129-141-46.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[17:31] <MikeMc68> k
[17:33] smealum (~smealum@82.243.132.64) left irc: Ping timeout: 256 seconds
[17:38] smealum (~smealum@82.243.132.64) joined #highaltitude.
[17:38] <Lunar_Lander> another spreadsheet question
[17:38] <Lunar_Lander> what does "Balloon Cd" mean?
[17:39] <jonsowman> drag coefficient at a guess
[17:39] <Lunar_Lander> ok, thanks
[17:40] <scotty> does anyone know what glue can be used instead of hot glue, that works the best?
[17:40] <scotty> i need to get a quick setting glue
[17:41] <MikeMc68> 2 part epoxy
[17:42] <russss> depends what you want to glue
[17:42] <russss> I am a big superglue fan
[17:43] Action: MikeMc68 is wondering if he can make a small tracker using a ublox and an Atmega328 chip
[17:44] <MikeMc68> always wanted to connected a GPS tracker to my cat to find out where he goes when he dissapears for hours on end
[17:45] <DanielRichman> MikeMc68, my insterest in breaking out a FSA was to use it attached to a laptop w. google maps and/or atmega+sd for logging
[17:45] <DanielRichman> I second the superglue if you want it done quickly
[17:46] <DanielRichman> hot glue gun hardly glues anything
[17:47] <russss> contact cement is another useful one sometimes
[17:49] rjmunro (~chatzilla@87.127.91.51) left irc: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115132715]
[17:51] jasonb (~jasonb@dsl027-180-244.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #highaltitude.
[17:51] <scotty> i need to glie my polysterene box payload together
[17:51] <scotty> ok ok 2 part expoxy superglue?
[17:51] <russss> ah well polystyrene is a tricky bugger
[17:52] <russss> try it on a spare bit first to make sure it doesn't melt it.
[17:52] <scotty> yeah
[17:52] <scotty> well superglue wont melt it will it?
[17:53] <russss> I don't *think* so.
[17:54] <DanielRichman> polystyrene? why can't you use hot glue gun? (one of the few things hot glue gun *can* glue)
[17:54] <DanielRichman> the amount of area you have to glue would be impractical with the size of typical superglue spreaders
[17:55] <scotty> i will be in the field
[17:55] <scotty> and i have no cordless one
[17:55] <russss> tape it?
[17:56] jcoxon (~jcoxon@host81-129-141-46.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[17:56] <scotty> ill be back
[17:56] scotty (~sj86@94-195-51-124.zone9.bethere.co.uk) left irc:
[17:59] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:06] Action: natrium42 pokes jcoxon with old topic
[18:06] <jcoxon> ouch!
[18:06] Action: jcoxon is angry with natrium42
[18:07] <natrium42> :D
[18:07] <DanielRichman> natrium42, go write a bot where you specify a topic and how long it applies for, after which it reverts to the old one
[18:07] edmoore (~ed@pluto.trinhall.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[18:07] #highaltitude: mode change '+o jcoxon' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[18:07] <jcoxon> mwhahaha
[18:07] <DanielRichman> also use /cs topic :P
[18:07] <natrium42> DanielRichman, zeusbot could do it...
[18:07] <DanielRichman> zeusbot!
[18:07] <edmoore> anything you can do, I can do better, I can do anything you can do too...
[18:07] <jcoxon> do not anger zeusbot
[18:07] #highaltitude: mode change '+o edmoore' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[18:08] Topic changed on #highaltitude by jcoxon!jcoxon@host81-129-141-46.range81-129.btcentralplus.com: Welcome to #highaltitude - discuss anything to do with high altitude projects (balloons, gliders, etc) www.ukhas.org.uk, wiki.ukhas.org.uk
[18:08] <natrium42> \o/
[18:08] <DanielRichman> not sure I'd trust zeusbot as a chanop
[18:09] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, nah its probably a good idea
[18:09] <natrium42> if only we could glet cleverbot here
[18:09] <natrium42> *get
[18:09] <jcoxon> he has enough difficulty logging the channel
[18:12] <natrium42> bbl
[18:12] natrium42 (~natrium@CPE000625d867e2-CM0014045885be.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[18:14] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, http://www.mcustore.com/acatalog/microSD_Card_Proto_Board.html
[18:15] <jcoxon> MikeMc68, http://www.mcustore.com/acatalog/EasyGPS_Proto_Board.html
[18:16] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, any idea what the caps/whatever those smds are, are for?
[18:17] <DanielRichman> oh card detect pulldown and vcc stabilisation looks like
[18:17] <jcoxon> no idea
[18:17] <jcoxon> i just ublox hunting
[18:17] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, thanks for the link
[18:19] <jcoxon> np
[18:24] Action: jcoxon continues his googling
[18:27] scotty (~sj86@94-195-51-124.zone9.bethere.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[18:27] <scotty> hi ed!
[18:36] <scotty> hi can i make sure i have this right. the Burst1A in PHP
[18:36] <scotty> Diameter at Launch (m) is the parachute diameter
[18:36] <scotty> ?
[18:37] <jcoxon> scotty, no no, its the balloon diameter
[18:38] <MikeMc68> that easygps looks interesting
[18:38] <scotty> so Diameter at Release
[18:38] <scotty> in the balloon ata guide
[18:38] <scotty> data*
[18:39] <jcoxon> yes
[18:39] <jcoxon> there is nothing in the burst1a about parachutes
[18:42] <Lunar_Lander> and what's Balloon Cd? I was suggested that it is the drag coefficient
[18:45] natrium42 (~8161a9d7@gateway/web/freenode/x-vqdqafududieyexc) joined #highaltitude.
[18:50] <scotty> if i did my flight now, according to the flight predictor, i could pick it up in 20 mins from my home haha
[18:50] <russss> lol
[18:50] <scotty> like 20 mins from kent
[18:50] <natrium42> neat
[18:53] <jcoxon> scotty, i'm not sure the winds are great right now for launching :-)
[18:53] <scotty> they are intresting
[18:53] <scotty> nothing near the sea when im doing the predictor
[18:55] <scotty> at 2:00 it looks good. and im getting to churchill for 12:00 on saturday
[18:55] <jcoxon> scotty, really? i reckon they are overflying london
[18:56] <scotty> its showing billingshurst as the site
[18:56] <jcoxon> scotty, have you seen this: http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/hourly-predictions/
[18:56] <scotty> tbh wont know until closer to the day
[18:56] <jcoxon> i personally don't recommend overflying london to tell teh truth,
[18:57] <scotty> can i ask why?
[18:57] <scotty> it bursts over south london croydon
[18:57] <jcoxon> if you get it wrong, say with a too fast ascent rate and it bursts above london then i wouldn't want it coming down
[18:57] <scotty> (where i also have a place)
[18:57] <scotty> its not central london
[18:58] <natrium42> it might land onto a red double-decked open-top tourist bus
[18:58] <scotty> not in epsom lol
[18:58] <scotty> only single decker there lol
[18:59] <jcoxon> certainly run the predictor with multiple burst heights and ascentrates
[18:59] <jcoxon> also you've got a number of airports on your flight path
[18:59] <scotty> so any ideas for glue that works other than glue gun? normal super glue works well?
[18:59] <natrium42> scotty: for what?
[18:59] <natrium42> styro?
[18:59] <scotty> polsterne
[18:59] <scotty> polystrene, i looked online in the guide
[18:59] <natrium42> gorilla glue works the best
[18:59] <jcoxon> i think superglue will dissolve it
[19:00] <jcoxon> i personally go for a glue gun
[19:00] <natrium42> but hot glue is quite good too
[19:01] <scotty> well i dont have a portable blue gun :( so graffer tape will have to do, unless theres a portable glue gun in chruchill site
[19:01] <natrium42> it's better to build payload in advance :P
[19:01] Action: natrium42 has tried to build on launch day -- not good
[19:01] <SpeedEvil> natrium42: You soulless minion of orthodoxy you.
[19:02] <jcoxon> scotty, glue as much as you can before hand and then just use tape to seal down your lid
[19:02] <jcoxon> it'll be fine
[19:02] <scotty> i have built it, but in need to power up on site (plug in batteries) then seal it
[19:02] <scotty> lol
[19:02] <scotty> ok i'll tape the lid down (which i was planning to do anyways
[19:03] <jcoxon> yeah thats fine
[19:03] <jcoxon> scotty, how you tracking?
[19:07] <scotty> GPS gm862 and back up gps
[19:07] <scotty> long and lat
[19:07] <scotty> i have to go, mate needs taking to the hospital :( (was there yesterday got two stitches in my hand lol)
[19:07] <jcoxon> no radio
[19:07] <jcoxon> okay, no worries
[19:07] <scotty> but could anyone help me out with timings for saturday
[19:07] <scotty> im arriving at 12:00 churchill site
[19:08] <scotty> but later on like 3-4:00 looks better for actaul launch
[19:08] <jcoxon> best talk with the CUSF guys as they are around
[19:08] <scotty> yeah
[19:09] <scotty> kk
[19:11] <natrium42> don't forget the customary lunch before launch :D
[19:11] <natrium42> right, jcoxon?
[19:13] <jcoxon> brunch
[19:13] <jcoxon> finishes at 1.30pm
[19:18] <sbasuita> Did anybody reply to these guys? http://groups.google.com/group/ukhas/browse_thread/thread/5ebf41b6faf3a6b3/13d97cd6e09b7084?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=de-lurking#13d97cd6e09b7084
[19:18] <jcoxon> sbasuita, hmmm no
[19:19] <sbasuita> :S
[19:21] DoYouKnow (~c0cb88fe@gateway/web/freenode/x-ravbykkmlmbektpk) joined #highaltitude.
[19:21] <DoYouKnow> y0
[19:23] <natrium42> h3110
[19:24] <DoYouKnow> Congrats on the project natrium, knowing it's possible to see the darkness of space from a balloon is really eye-opening
[19:25] <natrium42> bbl , NPR lecture
[19:26] natrium42 (~8161a9d7@gateway/web/freenode/x-vqdqafududieyexc) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[19:33] <DoYouKnow> which lecture /me wonders
[19:34] <DoYouKnow> ok, well, I'm gonna head home
[19:34] <DoYouKnow> l8r
[19:34] DoYouKnow (~c0cb88fe@gateway/web/freenode/x-ravbykkmlmbektpk) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[19:36] <scotty> im back lol
[19:38] Laurenceb (~laurence@host81-157-248-47.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[19:39] <Laurenceb> hi
[19:40] <scotty> im a bit worried that my payload will land too close to gatwick
[19:40] <scotty> it can land in billinghurst/horsham away
[19:40] <scotty> area*
[19:41] <scotty> south east of crawley
[19:45] chembrow (~chris@94-193-74-33.zone7.bethere.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[19:47] chembrow (chris@94-193-74-33.zone7.bethere.co.uk) left #highaltitude.
[19:48] RocketBoy (~Steve@217.47.75.8) joined #highaltitude.
[19:48] <scotty> has anyone done a launch from churchill site?
[19:49] <RocketBoy> yep
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> hi RocketBoy
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> I used your spreadsheet today and it was fascinating to experiment with it
[19:49] <scotty> awesome quick question, for me to use a gluegun i need to use my car, (apater connect to glue gun etc)
[19:50] <jcoxon> scotty, there are plugs in the bar you can use
[19:50] <jcoxon> usually you setup the payload in there and then take it outside
[19:50] <scotty> bar?
[19:50] <jcoxon> yeah college bar
[19:50] <Lunar_Lander> I found that you could launch 6.5 kg to 25 km with a 1000 g balloon inflated to 2.5 m
[19:50] <scotty> humm that could be an issue,
[19:50] <scotty> its just my camera battery is literally 2.10 hrs
[19:51] <scotty> and i cant let it run in the box for 15 mins for the balloon to blow up outside
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander> RocketBoy what does "Balloon Cd" mean
[19:51] <scotty> if u get my meaning
[19:51] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[19:51] DoYouKnow (~c0cb88f6@gateway/web/freenode/x-xmpnkyqxnnyknnba) joined #highaltitude.
[19:51] <scotty> literally turn on all my equipment in the payload, glue it, connect it to the balloon and up
[19:51] DoYouKnow (~c0cb88f6@gateway/web/freenode/x-xmpnkyqxnnyknnba) left irc: Client Quit
[19:51] <scotty> (unless u can blow up the balloon before hand and then quickly connect it all
[19:52] <scotty> (ill just use tape
[19:53] <RocketBoy> Lunar_Lander: there is no real error checking - its a very simple model intended to work out approximate burst heights - 6.5Kg is well beyond the normal neck loading for a 1000g balloon
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> scotty: hole to poke and turn the camera on.
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> what would it be more like?
[19:54] <scotty> i cant, as i have to preset the remote and turn off flash too
[19:54] <scotty> and no macro in camera to do it
[19:54] <scotty> its fine i wont use a glue gun
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_Lander: it may tear off at 3km
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> is 3.5 kg ok?
[19:54] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> I just try to figure out something
[19:55] <scotty> , just wondering if there is any portable ones
[19:55] <RocketBoy> Lunar_Lander: Cd - is coefficent of drag
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> scotty: external bats may be an option
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[19:55] <scotty> nope looked at that :(
[19:55] <scotty> loo
[19:55] <scotty> lol
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> scotty: why not?
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> scotty: or make a fake battery with external bats connected to it
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> if I want to have 3.5 kg, what could I do?
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> are the heavier balloons capable of holding more weight?
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> yes
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> could a 1500g one carry 3.5kg?
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> I'm not saying the smaller one won't work.
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> yeah I know
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> Just that it's untested
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> I don't want to run risks ;)
[19:56] <SpeedEvil> also - He can be moderately expensive
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> 2.5m is something like 8m^3
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> I know
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> at the moment it is just experimenting with it
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> to know some numbers when it gets practical
[19:59] <RocketBoy> the 1500g have a rated nozel lift of about 2.3Kg - so 3.5Kg is not too far out - but personally I wouldn't even consider a payload of that size
[19:59] <Lunar_Lander> ok
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> what about 2.5 kg and some of that is ballast which is somehow drained?
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> anyhow
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> I now gave it a 1500 balloon and 2.3 kg
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> still gives me 33 km
[20:06] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[20:07] Xenion (~robert@p57972585.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #highaltitude.
[20:07] <jcoxon> Lunar_Lander, whats teh ballast for?
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> It was just a random idea
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> launching with 2.5 kg and let 200 g drain out
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> but it just came to my mind that ballast is dead weight
[20:09] <Xenion> except if it is fuel and you want to land on the moon
[20:09] <Xenion> ^^
[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:12] Nick change: RocketBoy -> RocketBoy|Away
[20:12] <scotty> do you know when ed will be back?
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> does anybody know the neck limits for 2000 and 3000 g?
[20:17] Jasperw (~jasperw@skeleton2.london.iofc.org) left irc: Quit: Leaving.
[20:48] F4EIR (~5c8d7a15@gateway/web/freenode/x-qurofjglpmizbxkv) joined #highaltitude.
[21:02] natrium42 (~8161a9d7@gateway/web/freenode/x-cpzllpmhzfntivaa) joined #highaltitude.
[21:02] <natrium42> o/
[21:07] <scotty> is there anything other than your paylaod, and the things on the checklist, that you brring to the launch?
[21:07] <SpeedEvil> Radio, phone, duct tape, clothes, internet connectivity, ...
[21:08] <jcoxon> there is a checklist on the wiki
[21:09] <scotty> i have checked the check list on wiki :)
[21:11] <natrium42> hehe @ clothes
[21:11] <natrium42> "no shirt, no launch"
[21:12] <natrium42> basic tools like a knife, pliers, cutters
[21:13] <natrium42> soldering iron is also nice, in case there's something unexpected
[21:13] <natrium42> also zip ties!!!!
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> spare batteries
[21:14] <SpeedEvil> voltmeter
[21:14] <scotty> right
[21:14] <scotty> ok
[21:14] <scotty> yeah batteries are important
[21:15] <scotty> lithium engerizer :P yumm
[21:15] <scotty> am i right in thinking that the coldest temperature at around 34000 meters is -50c
[21:15] <scotty> or there abouts
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> IIRC it warms up at 35km - it's colder a little lower
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> to -55
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> Fo and find a nice graph though
[21:16] <SpeedEvil> go
[21:17] <natrium42> it warms up in the tropopause :P
[21:17] <scotty> yeah
[21:17] <natrium42> heat conductivity of atmosphere etc, etc...
[21:18] <Lunar_Lander> it indeed starts to heat up again
[21:18] <scotty> i've tested my payload at -64 C :P all working too
[21:18] <natrium42> you're crazy scotty :D
[21:18] <natrium42> that's some nice testing!
[21:19] <scotty> want to see a picture?
[21:19] <scotty> (i could have done -76C if i wanted to ) lol
[21:20] <natrium42> sure
[21:20] <scotty> sending..
[21:20] <natrium42> scotty: sorry, web chat here :S
[21:20] <natrium42> imgur.com ?
[21:22] donaldj (~donaldj@bas2-london14-1096550952.dsl.bell.ca) joined #highaltitude.
[21:22] <natrium42> hi donaldj
[21:22] <natrium42> welcome to the channel :)
[21:22] <donaldj> Hey!
[21:22] <scotty> oh ok
[21:22] <donaldj> thanks natrium
[21:23] <DanielRichman> natrium is the bouncer. He likes the look of you
[21:23] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.mtvhome.de/videos/238/330
[21:23] Simon-MPFH (~simon@phantom.mpfh.co.uk) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[21:23] <natrium42> DanielRichman: haha
[21:23] <DanielRichman> hmm. French speaking exam; one of the questions is "Do you think that eating meat is bad for your health?"
[21:24] <donaldj> i've got OK french, if you need assistance there
[21:24] <DanielRichman> no, it's ok. I was just wondering what on earth was up with the question
[21:24] <scotty> http://imgur.com/0DKPa.png is the -49 C
[21:25] <natrium42> scotty: you put HAL into your payload?
[21:25] <DanielRichman> interesting to find out the temperature it settles to, given the heat given off by the circuitry and the temp. outside
[21:25] <jonsowman> wow scotty thats some impressive testing
[21:25] <scotty> http://imgur.com/SliWz.png is the -57.2
[21:25] <russss> that's the device you need
[21:25] <scotty> it did do go to -64C but forgot to take a pic
[21:25] <donaldj> where are you testing that? surely you musnt own it.
[21:26] <scotty> my university, enviromental chamber
[21:26] <scotty> mad eby astell
[21:26] <scotty> made by*
[21:26] <russss> how cold does that thing go?
[21:26] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[21:26] <scotty> they hadn't used it in 2 years
[21:26] <russss> oops, lag.
[21:26] <scotty> -75C
[21:26] <scotty> lol
[21:26] <scotty> (i told my supervisor not to let it get that low)
[21:26] <scotty> ice forms on the outside of the chamber lol due to the c02
[21:26] <scotty> lol
[21:26] <russss> if they don't need it I'll take it off their hands.
[21:27] <russss> :P
[21:27] <scotty> haha
[21:27] <donaldj> (possibly stupid question) how cold does it usually get up there? ive read -50...
[21:27] <natrium42> russss needs a beer cooler
[21:27] <scotty> it heats too
[21:27] <scotty> yeah i did the test at -60 for 30 mins and -50 for 1 hour
[21:27] <scotty> all good, and little fogging up in the window, due to my heater inside my payload
[21:28] <natrium42> donaldj: yeah, -50 is about right
[21:28] <natrium42> then it gets warmer again as you get into tropopause
[21:28] <donaldj> oh THATS why... I was just punching numbers into WolframAlpha, and wondered why they started going up again
[21:28] <natrium42> since the heat capacity of the air is very low, heat from the sun is not easily dissipated
[21:29] <donaldj> scotty: what are you using as a heater?
[21:33] <scotty> cctv heater its 3.5 inchies by 1.5 inchies
[21:33] <scotty> and very hot
[21:33] <scotty> kept my inside at a nice room temp + slightly above
[21:35] <donaldj> how much power does it take?
[21:35] rjharrison (~rharrison@62.49.185.11) joined #highaltitude.
[21:36] <natrium42> hi rob
[21:36] <scotty> 12v, i.e 8 AA batteries.. which lasted hours on my test
[21:36] <scotty> 4 hours*
[21:39] <donaldj> cool! thanks
[21:39] <donaldj> (well... not cool, warm.)
[21:40] <scotty> lol
[21:40] <natrium42> XD
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> hey
[21:40] <scotty> scorderling hot tbh
[21:40] <Lunar_Lander> IIRC you can get as much as 60°C with lime
[21:40] <scotty> does anyone know if they have spare parachutes in cambridge?
[21:41] Action: natrium42 pokes edmoore
[21:41] <DanielRichman> chutes are reusable, right?
[21:41] <scotty> yeah
[21:42] <DanielRichman> (I'm not in cambridge before you get your hopes up :P)
[21:42] <scotty> lol
[21:42] <DanielRichman> ((though it'd be nice if I could end up there in a couple of years))
[21:42] <donaldj> are we talking cambridge, england?
[21:42] <jonsowman> we are
[21:42] <scotty> yeah churchill site
[21:43] <jonsowman> DanielRichman: what year are you in at the moment?
[21:43] <DanielRichman> jonsowman, Year 11
[21:43] <DanielRichman> Gcse time :)
[21:43] <jonsowman> ah right
[21:43] <jonsowman> lucky you
[21:44] <jonsowman> :)
[21:44] <DanielRichman> you say that, but...
[21:44] <jonsowman> know what you want to do at uni?
[21:44] <DanielRichman> it's the weighing up between revising lots for one subject or a smaller amount for 10 subjects
[21:44] <DanielRichman> yeah, Maths
[21:44] <DanielRichman> weighting choices towards Compsci if I can
[21:44] <DanielRichman> but primarily Maths
[21:44] <jonsowman> hmm yes thats true
[21:44] <jonsowman> ah fair enough, sounds good :)
[21:45] <DanielRichman> Can someone quickly confirm the UK HAM rules on building your own kit? As I understand it Intermediate licensees can build a kit, and advanced licensees can design and build their own stuff...?
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> that seems to be reasonable
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> but I don't know the regulations
[21:46] <DanielRichman> Do the rules cover actually building it, or turning it on?
[21:47] <natrium42> that's what it is in canada too
[21:48] <DanielRichman> ya well we own canada so it's likely to be similar :o
[21:48] <natrium42> suure :P
[21:48] <donaldj> natrium, you're located in Ontario... right?
[21:48] <natrium42> yeah, waterloo
[21:48] <donaldj> (whoa, i applied there...)
[21:48] <donaldj> whats a decent launch place?
[21:48] <natrium42> which program?
[21:48] <donaldj> i don't really wanna end up in Lake Erie or something.
[21:49] <natrium42> around kincardine is best
[21:49] <Laurenceb> anyone know the seedstudio pcb specs?
[21:49] <natrium42> because winds are usually from the west to the east...
[21:49] <Laurenceb> minimum trace size etc
[21:49] <DanielRichman> Laurenceb, do you know the UK ham kit-building rules ^q above^ with certainty?
[21:49] <natrium42> donaldj: i wouldn't launch from your location
[21:49] <natrium42> you need to go north :S
[21:50] <donaldj> yes, i was worrying about that
[21:50] <donaldj> im actually in Chatham
[21:50] <natrium42> flight predictors help to get you an idea
[21:50] <MikeMc68> evening
[21:50] <donaldj> tho my IP is out of London
[21:50] <donaldj> ISP*
[21:50] <natrium42> donaldj: have you tried a flight predictor?
[21:50] <donaldj> yes,
[21:50] <donaldj> if i launched from my house, I'd land pretty near to Cleveland, but still in Erie
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> btw, I found something interesting
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> if I'd launch tomorrow I'll get a track straight due south
[21:51] <DanielRichman> until it turns out that the weather men got it wrong
[21:51] F4EIR (~5c8d7a15@gateway/web/freenode/x-qurofjglpmizbxkv) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[21:51] <natrium42> donaldj: all my launches were from Lucknow
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> In Europe the sea is not so much a danger because the wind almost always is due east
[21:52] <natrium42> it's pretty close to kincardine (i'd stay away from kincardine as they have a nuke plant there)
[21:53] <donaldj> and, i'd land somewhere north of Kitchener?
[21:55] <natrium42> if the winds are good
[21:56] <natrium42> i have seen trajectories to oshawa and peterborough on especially windy days....
[21:56] <natrium42> quite a long drive :S
[21:56] <donaldj> yes indeed
[21:56] <donaldj> thanks for telling me about this community here, very very helpful.
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> welcome donaldj!
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> so you are from Canada?
[21:57] <natrium42> :)
[21:57] <donaldj> Yep! just down the road from Natrium
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> cool
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> I'm from Germany
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb?
[21:57] <Laurenceb> UK
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> uk
[21:57] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:58] <Lunar_Lander> Laurenceb, I have been told that you built an air sampler
[21:58] <natrium42> this channel is quite international, we have people from UK, Canada, Germany, Australia, USA
[21:59] <natrium42> although most are from UK :)
[21:59] <donaldj> i've gathered that much :P
[21:59] <Laurenceb> Lunar_Lander yeah, its on the wiki
[21:59] <natrium42> donaldj: so you applied to UoW?
[21:59] <donaldj> yep, the Knowledge Integration program
[22:00] <donaldj> i kind of applied to it on a whim because it looked cool...
[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> is it that Aerosol thing?
[22:00] <natrium42> interesting, never heard of that program before
[22:00] <donaldj> I'm more interested in genetics at UoGuelph or UoT
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> we had quite a number of Dutch people here in mid-february when searching a balloon which landed in Holland
[22:01] <Lunar_Lander> correction
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> The Netherlands
[22:02] <donaldj> quite the dynamic crowd indeed
[22:03] <donaldj> just a forewarning about me: i'm very very new to this whole business... Havn't started to build a thing.
[22:04] <DanielRichman> donaldj, how much do you know about the different stuff involved (radio, microcontrollers, etc.)?
[22:04] <donaldj> not much, but i'm very technically minded
[22:04] <DanielRichman> Do you keep a soldering iron under your pillow?
[22:04] <natrium42> lol
[22:05] <donaldj> no, its within a 10 second walk
[22:05] <DanielRichman> You'll be fine :P
[22:05] <donaldj> though i am absolutely horrid at soldering...
[22:05] <donaldj> self-taught, never was shown
[22:06] <donaldj> i expect I'll pick up the skills quickly if i plan on doing well here?
[22:06] <natrium42> :)
[22:06] <DanielRichman> (at risk of patronising:) the key is to make sure the pad is warm or it'll go badly wrong
[22:06] Action: natrium42 cold solders DanielRichman
[22:06] <DanielRichman> the tech teacher here always says "you want a volcano shaped blob of solder"
[22:06] <DanielRichman> cold solder! there's no way that could be right
[22:06] <natrium42> donaldj: have you played with microcontrollers?
[22:07] <natrium42> that would be a good way to get started
[22:07] <DanielRichman> grab a breadboard
[22:07] <donaldj> no, but i've always wanted to
[22:07] <DanielRichman> programmed before?
[22:07] <donaldj> yes!
[22:07] <DanielRichman> <3 C?
[22:07] <natrium42> arduino platform would be a good idea, as there is so much info out there
[22:07] <donaldj> yep... i've looked into arudinos before
[22:07] <DanielRichman> though be warned, the more you learn about it the more you hate it
[22:07] <natrium42> and you can always "graduate" to straight C
[22:08] <donaldj> i was going to get an arudino for christmas, but i chose a telescope instead
[22:08] <donaldj> arduino*
[22:08] <natrium42> <DanielRichman> cold solder! there's no way that could be right <-- actutally, there is conductive epoxy...
[22:09] <DanielRichman> how long does that take to set?
[22:09] <DanielRichman> arduino is, what, £20? - a single avr is £2; but you need to buy the programmer (although you only need one) and the bits to go with it (regulator, crystal, 3 caps, 1 resistor (reset pullup))
[22:09] <donaldj> 20 pounds...
[22:09] <natrium42> http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/seeeduino-v212-fully-assembled-arduino-compatible-p-389.html?cPath=27
[22:09] <donaldj> whats the exchange rate?
[22:09] <MikeMc68> not necessarily
[22:09] <DanielRichman> donaldj, it was an estimate anyway :P
[22:09] <natrium42> that one is only $19
[22:10] <MikeMc68> you can make an 8MHz arduino that doesn't need the crystal etc.
[22:10] <DanielRichman> true
[22:10] <donaldj> oh my! cheap stuff
[22:10] <DanielRichman> with no crystal it's just 1 cap one resistor and you're rolling
[22:10] <DanielRichman> donaldj, run linux?
[22:10] <donaldj> ive tried many many times
[22:10] <donaldj> i want to,
[22:10] <DanielRichman> :(
[22:11] <donaldj> but i love the look of os x
[22:11] <donaldj> not to sound like a fanboy, but it just *works*
[22:11] <MikeMc68> agreed
[22:11] <DanielRichman> yeah
[22:11] Action: natrium42 runs primarily ubuntu on his MBP :P
[22:12] <donaldj> although i always have an ubuntu live cd within arms reach
[22:12] <DanielRichman> I've never tried winavr (is it called that?) but it's meant to be good (and is just windows bundled (cygwin??) gcc and avrdude
[22:13] <DanielRichman> donaldj, do you have easy access to pcb fabrication or are you gonna be getting that over the internet? ever used eagle? or you might want to just use stripboard (some do)
[22:13] <natrium42> DanielRichman: it might be best to use a ready-made board to get started :P
[22:13] <donaldj> i agree with natrium :P
[22:14] <DanielRichman> there are ready made boards?
[22:14] <natrium42> XD
[22:14] <natrium42> the link above, $19
[22:14] jcoxon (~jcoxon@host81-129-141-46.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[22:14] <DanielRichman> yeah but then you gotta get all the shazzle attached to it; radio etc.
[22:14] <DanielRichman> gps
[22:14] <DanielRichman> ugh
[22:14] <DanielRichman> yuck
[22:15] <DanielRichman> not even duct tape could cover up the resultant monstrosity
[22:15] <natrium42> adafruit has some nice kits also --> http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=17
[22:16] <donaldj> how do the gps & radio stuffs communicate with the arduino?
[22:16] <natrium42> serial port (uart)
[22:16] <DanielRichman> gps - goes into the UART
[22:16] <DanielRichman> radio gets bitbanged
[22:16] <DanielRichman> (though in theory you could put it into a uart; would require a more interesting circuit)
[22:16] <natrium42> it's the same as COM ports on your computer, just different voltage levels
[22:17] <natrium42> well, i guess there are no COM ports on macs :P
[22:17] <donaldj> well, i've actually got a dell mini here, with OSX hacked
[22:17] <donaldj> still, no com ports
[22:18] <donaldj> bitbanging sounds painful
[22:18] <DanielRichman> It's not that bad
[22:19] <natrium42> there's some code for it on the wiki
[22:19] <donaldj> *sigh of relief*
[22:19] <natrium42> :)
[22:20] <DanielRichman> http://code.google.com/p/alien-flightcomputer/source/browse/#svn/trunk/alien1/atmega162/final
[22:20] <DanielRichman> thats the code for our project; radio.c guilty of bitbanging
[22:21] <donaldj> now, at the risk of possibly insulting everyone, i ask this question:
[22:22] <donaldj> Why doesn't everyone just strap a trackable gps phone to their payload, and track that way?
[22:22] <russss> phones only work up to a ~1km altitude
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> And may not get a lock on teh way down
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> A phone lock that is
[22:23] <russss> also GPS phones are more expensive than the AVR contraption
[22:23] <DanielRichman> the GSM fails after 1km, and GPS fails at high altitude on devices not meant to be used that high, usually
[22:23] <DanielRichman> and is it legal?
[22:23] <donaldj> i don't think so, that was the only fallback i could think of
[22:24] <russss> there's no law against having phones that high
[22:24] <russss> you can use phones in small aircraft too
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> With the current radio solution it is possible to put a radio in a chase car, and with someone working the radio, and using a computer to work out drifts - and to - pretty much - be in sight of it when it lands.
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> With a modicum of luck
[22:25] <DanielRichman> some payloads fly a backup phone too, to send SMSs when it lands
[22:25] <natrium42> donaldj: the MIT guys did that --> http://space.1337arts.com/
[22:25] <russss> yeah, lots of people *do* use phones
[22:25] <MikeMc68> No kit can beat the stuff you get in the Earthshine Design Arduino Starter Kit ;)
[22:25] <natrium42> MikeMc68: :D
[22:25] <natrium42> who was it again that launched the arduino phone?
[22:26] <natrium42> that's more interesting, at least
[22:26] <natrium42> err
[22:26] <natrium42> android phone
[22:26] <natrium42> it's more interesting because you can make it do more complex stuff :)
[22:26] <DanielRichman> vs gumstix?
[22:27] <natrium42> gumstix has better IO
[22:27] <natrium42> android phone has only a single uart, so you'd still need a micro to interface with sensors etc...
[22:29] <Lunar_Lander> any idea where to get a 78" chute?
[22:29] <natrium42> sperachutes?
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> Plus size shops?
[22:29] <natrium42> http://spherachutes.com/items/spherachutes/list.htm
[22:29] <russss> it was noisebridge who did the android phone
[22:29] <natrium42> oh right
[22:30] <donaldj> is it possible to make your own parachute?
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[22:30] <natrium42> sure, there are even some plans
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> It's not really complex. Some rip-stop nylon, and a bit of sewing.
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> Or even a sheet of polythene.
[22:32] <Lunar_Lander> thanks for the Spherachute page!
[22:32] <natrium42> :)
[22:32] <Lunar_Lander> that's what I needed
[22:33] <Lunar_Lander> whoa 192"
[22:33] <Lunar_Lander> 4.8 meters
[22:33] <natrium42> they even have a weather balloon option, if you need it
[22:33] <natrium42> crossed lines at the top
[22:34] jcoxon (~jcoxon@host81-129-141-46.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[22:34] DoYouKnow (~michael@adsl-75-4-147-33.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) joined #highaltitude.
[22:34] <DoYouKnow> hello
[22:35] <natrium42> Lunar_Lander: sounds enough for a human
[22:35] <jcoxon> wow 44
[22:35] <natrium42> ~31.39 km/hr descent
[22:35] <DoYouKnow> Lunar_Lander, what are you up to?
[22:35] <natrium42> for 70kg human
[22:35] <natrium42> but i don't recommend it :P
[22:36] <DoYouKnow> falling at 32 km/hr?
[22:36] <DoYouKnow> and hitting the ground?
[22:36] <donaldj> 9 m/s
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> I think that's in the 'probably not fatal if you land right' category
[22:37] <DanielRichman> My school has decided to start its own Amateur Radio Club
[22:37] <DanielRichman> time to start suggesting they get an 817
[22:37] <donaldj> its like jumping off the third floor, if my calculations are right
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> donaldj: sounds about right
[22:37] <jcoxon> DanielRichman, who inspired them to do that - not many schools have one
[22:37] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, two of the member of the cadets
[22:38] <russss> my secondary school had loads of awesome radio kit which hardly anyone used.
[22:38] ejcweb (~chatzilla@constantine.chu.cam.ac.uk) joined #highaltitude.
[22:38] <DanielRichman> they have military licences and what looks like a >20m dipole on the roof
[22:38] <DanielRichman> I doubt they have any UHF kit
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> I saw in the parachute chart that a 2 m chute means 3.5 m/s descent for 2.3 kg payload
[22:38] <DanielRichman> jcoxon, we turned up to the first meeting and said we had foundation licences to a measured amount of jawdroppin
[22:38] <jcoxon> wow
[22:38] <jcoxon> hehe
[22:39] <jcoxon> i've been trying to construct a 20m dipole
[22:39] <jcoxon> but i've completely failed
[22:39] <DanielRichman> TBH their attempt doesn't look... great
[22:39] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: vertical?
[22:39] <jcoxon> its far worse then my over rough random wire
[22:39] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, no horizontal - having to go stealth cause i'm in london
[22:40] <SpeedEvil> ah
[22:40] <DanielRichman> the one i see is 3-4m above roof level, balanced feeder though, and it sags a bit. It also looks like at either end, rather than terminating the wire, it continues through a hook and down to the ground where it is secured
[22:40] <jcoxon> i might go to ML&S this saturday
[22:40] <DanielRichman> although I might be wrong
[22:40] <DoYouKnow> ML&S?
[22:41] <DoYouKnow> may I inquire as to what that abbreviation stands for?
[22:41] <donaldj> ministry of land and security?
[22:41] <donaldj> land and sea?
[22:41] <jcoxon> damn
[22:41] <DanielRichman> :D
[22:41] <jcoxon> yay
[22:42] <jcoxon> i really need to get a 40m setup
[22:42] <natrium42> IC-7700!!!
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> I'm astounded that I've got a decent radio shop almost on my doorstep
[22:42] <russss> mmm 7700
[22:42] <SpeedEvil> http://www.jayceecoms.com/
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Oooh - nasty.
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> They even do finance.
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:43] <jcoxon> SpeedEvil, oooo cool - thats a secondary shop for waters&stanton
[22:43] <jcoxon> who are down in essex
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> does Sperachute accept PayPal?
[22:44] <scotty> can i get good pictures at 25,000 meters
[22:44] <scotty> ?
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> scotty: of?
[22:44] <scotty> huh?
[22:44] <donaldj> pictures of what?
[22:44] <scotty> the earth
[22:44] <natrium42> time to get home, later all
[22:45] <SpeedEvil> scotty: If you want pictures of kittens, then no.
[22:45] <scotty> cicumference
[22:45] <scotty> lol
[22:45] <jcoxon> scotty, yeah
[22:45] natrium42 (~8161a9d7@gateway/web/freenode/x-cpzllpmhzfntivaa) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[22:45] <jcoxon> our first flights were in the 20km area
[22:45] <jcoxon> and they were good
[22:45] <jcoxon> 30km is better
[22:45] <DoYouKnow> the sounds in this video are amazing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0sptTJu8Os
[22:45] DanielRichman (~DanielRic@unaffiliated/danielrichman) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> what do you think about that
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> the experiments record their data on a SD memory card and the 433 MHz module sends out a "homing signal"
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> I mean with that a signal that helps it to be found afterwards
[22:46] <scotty> right my battery life lasts 2.12 hrs
[22:47] <scotty> so 132 mins
[22:47] <scotty> its takes
[22:47] <jcoxon> scotty, with energizer lithiums?
[22:47] <donaldj> dinnertime for me, goodbye all! thanks for everything
[22:47] <scotty> 34037m burst at 170 mins
[22:47] <scotty> i dont have a convertor for my digimax camera
[22:48] <DoYouKnow> nice scotty
[22:48] donaldj (~donaldj@bas2-london14-1096550952.dsl.bell.ca) left irc: Quit: Leaving...
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> Do I remember correctly that it is not permitted to downlink the experiment data on the radio?
[22:50] <jcoxon> no its allowed
[22:50] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:50] <Lunar_Lander> and if I transfer the data to a memory card and have the signal as a tracking signal?
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> that's what's generally done
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> as you can't move any significant data over the 50bps
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> ok :)
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> though some have contemplated higher speeds
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> I got a friend who did something like that
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> sensors and a microcontroller
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> and the sensors write on a SD card
[22:52] ms7821 (~Mark@flat.ms) left irc: Disconnected by services
[22:52] ms7821 (~Mark@flat.ms) joined #highaltitude.
[22:53] <scotty> Right i need some advice, i basically i need my payload to reach high altitude quicker, and i have 4km to play with. i have a kaymont kcl balloon 1200. Is my only option, fill it with more helium, and make the payload lighter?
[22:53] jcoxon (~jcoxon@host81-129-141-46.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> I think so
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> the spreadsheet says that more gas won't change the altitude but increase ascent speed
[22:56] <DoYouKnow> you need less gas, because the balloon expands
[22:56] <DoYouKnow> for a higher altitude
[22:56] <DoYouKnow> right?
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[22:56] <Lunar_Lander> and less weight too
[22:56] <scotty> thats the point i need it to ascent quicker
[22:57] <scotty> (i.e reach 30km in 2 hrs 10 mins not 2 hrs 30 mins)
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> more helium makes it burst sooner
[23:00] <SpeedEvil> and go up faster
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> less weight makes it go up faster, but not burst sooner
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> Also - you may find that your camera uses less power if you switch it to a lower megapixel mode.
[23:01] <SpeedEvil> Look at past pics.
[23:01] <scotty> it bursts 34000 meters
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> In almost all cases, at the top, you get no sharp detail at all.
[23:02] <scotty> i dont mind it bursting at 30000 meters if it reachs it quicker
[23:02] <scotty> so how do i do the calculating
[23:02] <SpeedEvil> enter it into the spreadsheet
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> another method is to replace the He with H2 of course
[23:08] junderwood (~John@adsl.jcu.me.uk) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[23:09] <scotty> enter into .php or xecel
[23:09] <scotty> ?
[23:11] <Lunar_Lander> excel
[23:11] <Lunar_Lander> or try http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/calc/
[23:11] <Lunar_Lander> that is similar
[23:14] <scotty> i used that one
[23:14] <scotty> The balloon has volume 3.0536m3 at launch, will burst at 34037m, will have an ascent rate of 211.2m/min and will take 161.14 minutes to burst.
[23:14] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:14] <Lunar_Lander> give it a larger diameter
[23:15] <scotty> i want to increase the volume of 3.0536m3 to a higher one, so that it gets to say 32,000 meters in a quicker time
[23:15] <scotty> not 34km
[23:15] <SpeedEvil> How much helium do you have
[23:15] <scotty> but im not sure how to do the volume
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> you have a 1200 balloon?
[23:16] donaldj (~donaldj@bas2-london14-1096550952.dsl.bell.ca) joined #highaltitude.
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> and how much payload weight?
[23:16] <scotty> yeah i have a 1200 balloon
[23:16] <scotty> payload weight 1.45kg
[23:17] <scotty> and diamter is 1.8
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> The balloon has volume 4.1888m3 at launch, will burst at 31749m, will have an ascent rate of 350.9m/min and will take 90.49 minutes to burst.
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> that is for 2 Meter
[23:17] <scotty> 2 meter?
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[23:17] Hiena (~Hiena@81.93.195.181.datatrans.hu) left irc: Quit: -=Got bored from the net. Gone blowing up things.=-
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> remember
[23:18] <scotty> oh diamteter
[23:18] <scotty> diamter sorry
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> in the volume calculation, the radius is cubed
[23:18] <scotty> no i am confused
[23:18] <scotty> ?
[23:18] <scotty> lol
[23:18] <scotty> Gas helium
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[23:19] <scotty> Diameter at launch (m) is 1.8
[23:19] <scotty> (you put 2)
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[23:19] <scotty> balloon type 1200g
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[23:19] <scotty> mass payload 1450 g
[23:19] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[23:19] <scotty> (how to you increase the diameter at launch from 1.8 to 2 meters?
[23:20] <scotty> (just put more helium in?
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:20] Laurenceb (~laurence@host81-157-248-47.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> wait
[23:20] juxta (fourtytwo@ppp118-210-194-250.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net) joined #highaltitude.
[23:20] <scotty> well how can i make sure that i put enough in...
[23:20] <scotty> like just put 4.1888m3
[23:20] <scotty> into the balloon
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> the 1200 balloon will burst at 8.6 meters diameter
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> so you have safety margin
[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> hmm
[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> it should be possible by comparing the cylinder pressure
[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> before and after
[23:21] <scotty> umm 8.6 meters diameter
[23:22] ejcweb (~chatzilla@constantine.chu.cam.ac.uk) left irc: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]
[23:22] <scotty> ok i am doing this
[23:22] <scotty> The balloon has volume 3.5914m3 at launch, will burst at 32863m, will have an ascent rate of 292.7m/min and will take 112.27 minutes to burst.
[23:22] <Lunar_Lander> the sheet says that this is the burst diameter
[23:22] <Lunar_Lander> e.g. the balloon will get as big as that and then it bursts
[23:22] <scotty> my camera lasts 132 mintues so it should be able to stay on when it bursts
[23:22] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> and 20 minutes of descent too
[23:23] <scotty> yeah
[23:23] <scotty> so i'll put in 3.5914m3 of helium
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> scotty: Try it one smaller picture size. You may find it lasts a lot longer
[23:25] <scotty> its a 8.2 mega pixel camera for a reason, i want that quailty at high altitude..because i have tested it, its awesome
[23:25] <RocketBoy|Away> yeah - you cant really measure to that sort of accuracy anyway
[23:26] <scotty> accuracy?
[23:26] <RocketBoy|Away> cant measure volume accuratly - and even lift is difficult (wind gusting etc) - tempreture changes of the gas ....
[23:26] <RocketBoy|Away> Cd of the balloon ...
[23:27] <scotty> if i get it roughly the balloons volume at 3.5914m3 at launch, it will be ok?
[23:27] <juxta> high pixel count != high quality
[23:27] <scotty> humm well whats the best guarantee then....
[23:27] <RocketBoy|Away> sure - but don't expect timing down to 10 to 20 mins for burst
[23:27] <scotty> my kcl 1200 balloon will handle 3.5914m3 volume wont it
[23:28] <juxta> scotty, measuring the volume is tricky, you're best off working out how much lift you need & attaching some weight to it & waiting until you're bouyant
[23:28] <scotty> how do u mean, until its steady?
[23:29] <RocketBoy|Away> sure - but how are you going to measure the volume going in to the accuracy that you will be withing 15mins of your expected burst time
[23:29] <RocketBoy|Away> the spreadsheet is an estimator - no more
[23:29] <juxta> if you calculate you need 2.5kg of lift from the balloon, then attach 2.5kg to it and fill until it starts to lift
[23:29] <juxta> 3.5914m^3 is very precise - you'll be lucky to get it right to 1 decimal place in practice
[23:29] <scotty> yeah well as the other guys says measure how much in the tank at start and finish
[23:29] <scotty> ?
[23:29] <scotty> yeah
[23:29] sbasuita (~sbasuita@unaffiliated/drebellion) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[23:29] <scotty> well above 3.6 is ok
[23:30] <juxta> and as RocketBoy|Away says, you'll never get the burst time perfectly right, all balloons are slightly different, weather, etc etc
[23:30] <RocketBoy|Away> just don't expect to be able to measure volume to any accuracy with a pressure guage IMO
[23:30] <juxta> pressure gauge sucks
[23:31] <scotty> lol
[23:31] <scotty> humm
[23:31] <scotty> alot to think about for the weekend
[23:31] <scotty> well what saftey margin do u reckon i need then
[23:31] <juxta> scotty: it would def be an idea to have surplus camera run time
[23:31] DoYouKnow (~michael@adsl-75-4-147-33.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
[23:31] <RocketBoy|Away> as the gas expands it cools - so your measuring volume at what tempreture?
[23:32] <scotty> lower than room temperture as
[23:32] <scotty> the balloon is filled on the test site?
[23:32] <juxta> setting up etc takes a while - it'd be really hard to turn on the cam and launch straight away, there'll be more faffing around checking stuff
[23:32] <RocketBoy|Away> (loads)
[23:32] <juxta> you fill the balloon just before you launch scotty
[23:33] <scotty> yeah
[23:33] DoYouKnow (~michael@adsl-75-4-147-33.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) joined #highaltitude.
[23:33] <RocketBoy|Away> yeah - fill - measure lift (with cool gas) - close
[23:33] <juxta> what sort of camera are you running scotty? maybe you can power it externally for greater run time?
[23:33] <scotty> well as i see it the last thing to turn on in my payload is the camera, then tape up the payload. attach balloon and up
[23:34] <RocketBoy|Away> gas warms - volumes goes up
[23:34] <scotty> its a digimax v800 8.2 mega pixel
[23:34] <RocketBoy|Away> so its all relativly inaccurate
[23:34] <scotty> it has a dc in 3,3 v
[23:34] <scotty> but the manual says battery needs to be out to use that, and im not doing that
[23:35] <juxta> why not?
[23:35] <juxta> it's probably smart to rig up 3.3v power in off a bank of lithiums
[23:35] <juxta> and forgo the internal battery
[23:36] <juxta> (if you need longer runtime)
[23:37] <scotty> i worked out:
[23:37] <scotty> Diameter 1.9, volume 3.5914m3 at launch, will burst at 32863m, 112.27 minutes to burst.
[23:37] <scotty> Diameter 2.0 volume 4.1888m3 at launch, will burst at 31749m, 90.49 minutes to burst.
[23:37] <scotty> Diameter 1.8 volume 3.0536m3 at launch, will burst at 34037m, 161.14 minutes to burst.
[23:37] DoYouKnow (~michael@adsl-75-4-147-33.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Client Quit
[23:37] <scotty> so the volume of the balloon needs to be between 3.05 and 4.2 m3
[23:37] <scotty> to be safe no?
[23:38] <RocketBoy|Away> safe in what sense
[23:38] <juxta> sure, but you're sacrifcing altitude by filling more
[23:38] <scotty> that it gets near 30,000 meters
[23:38] <RocketBoy|Away> as in not landing in london?
[23:38] <scotty> in good time
[23:39] <juxta> scotty: is the issue the the camera will run out of memory? or power?
[23:39] <scotty> power
[23:39] <scotty> not memory
[23:40] <Lunar_Lander> RocketBoy|Away thanks again for the hint with the 2.3 kg
[23:40] <scotty> i think 132 minutes is alot anyways at 8.2 mega pixel
[23:40] <juxta> in that case I'd say hook up an external supply if you're set on leaving the image size at max
[23:40] <RocketBoy|Away> well the 3.05 figure (161mins) is too long right?
[23:40] <Lunar_Lander> do you know the limits for the 2000 and the 3000 balloon too=
[23:40] <Lunar_Lander> ?
[23:40] <juxta> though I dont think you'll gain anything by having the camera wound up to 8.2 megapixel
[23:41] <scotty> the quailty will be worth it i think
[23:41] <scotty> personally anyways, i maybe be wrong...but over all i think it will be fine
[23:41] <RocketBoy|Away> Lunar_Lander: yes (Although i wounlt recommend the 2000 as its poor value for money IMO)
[23:42] <juxta> as I said before, a higher pixel count does not necessarily equate to a higher quality image quality
[23:42] <scotty> i just need to fill the balloon to between 3-4.2 cm3 volume..can i do that realisticly?
[23:42] <juxta> scotty: sure, that's doable
[23:42] <RocketBoy|Away> yes within those sorts of margins I would think so
[23:43] <scotty> awesome!
[23:44] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok
[23:44] <scotty> oh yeah btw 2.1 volume cm3 bursts at 30000 meters in 71 mins
[23:44] <scotty> lol
[23:44] <juxta> why not hook up an external supply though scotty?
[23:44] <Lunar_Lander> so what is the load limit for the 3000 balloon?
[23:45] <scotty> (sorry wrong bit above its 2.1 diamter lol)
[23:45] <scotty> umm
[23:46] <juxta> how are you tracking the balloon by the way?
[23:46] <scotty> ggps
[23:46] <scotty> gps module- sms long and lat to my phone
[23:46] <juxta> hmm
[23:46] <juxta> are you in the UK?
[23:47] <scotty> yeah canters
[23:47] <RocketBoy|Away> scotty: yeah - the spreadsheet is well used - its basic but it works
[23:47] <juxta> relying on a celular network is a bit iffy - your balloon will lose signal after a couple of KM, and it may come down fast enough that it doesnt have a chance to send you an sms
[23:47] <scotty> it works up to 18,000 mters
[23:47] <Lunar_Lander> RocketBoy|Away you know, I got some biologists interested in my project, and they want to know stuff like weight limits, time in the stratosphere and so on
[23:47] <scotty> decent rate of my balloon is 5.77 m/s
[23:47] <RocketBoy|Away> what does - SMS - I doubt it
[23:48] <juxta> RocketBoy|Away: the module, I think it's a sirfIII
[23:48] <scotty> and therefore plenty time for when it reaches 18,000 meters to send my gps coordinates
[23:48] <scotty> yeah its sirfIII
[23:48] <juxta> is it a SIRFIII module scotty? if so, it may lock up and need to be rebooted before it will regain lock when it passes 18,000m
[23:48] <juxta> and the SMS module won't work above 3km, no chance of that
[23:48] <RocketBoy|Away> oh right - yeah a known problem
[23:49] <scotty> why would it lock up at 3 km? or even 18,000 km..surely it just looses signal and not anything else
[23:50] <juxta> scotty: it will just lose cell phone signal at say 3km, but that GPS module has a firmware bug - they tend to lock up above 18,000 or 24,000m
[23:50] <RocketBoy|Away> cellphone towers typically have antenna that point sideways - not up
[23:50] <Lunar_Lander> I don't know if DCC works
[23:50] <scotty> i am using another gps module aswell
[23:50] <Lunar_Lander> somehow it won't work sometimes
[23:51] <RocketBoy|Away> OK?
[23:51] <scotty> it shouldn't lock up
[23:51] <juxta> what is the other module scotty?
[23:51] <RocketBoy|Away> night all
[23:51] RocketBoy|Away (~Steve@217.47.75.8) left irc: Quit: Leaving
[23:51] <scotty> night dude
[23:52] <scotty> its a backup
[23:52] <scotty> i dont know the module only the specs
[23:53] <juxta> ok
[23:53] <juxta> another sms module?
[23:53] <scotty> yeah
[23:53] <scotty> it should be fine..
[23:53] <scotty> its going to be room temp in the payload.
[23:53] <scotty> so its not going to freeze
[23:53] <scotty> so thats not the issue
[23:54] <juxta> no, temp probably isnt the issue
[23:54] <scotty> the gps can track fine in my payload when its sealed
[23:54] <juxta> but if your modules dont manage to get an SMS out before the payload hits the ground on the way down, you may lose it
[23:54] <scotty> i'll look tommorw, but as i am not contacting it until it comes down it shouldn't break
[23:54] <juxta> (ie if you land somewhere with no coverage)
[23:55] <scotty> well i can also set the gps module to send a sms every 3 or 5 mins for 100 times if i need too
[23:55] <juxta> what is your payload made of by the way?
[23:55] <scotty> and so it will constantly send me
[23:55] <scotty> sms
[23:55] <scotty> its polysterene box. doesn't efect the gps
[23:55] <juxta> how thick?
[23:57] <scotty> its 2 inchies thick
[23:57] <scotty> it can with stand the cold and the gps works through it
[23:57] <juxta> that's good
[23:58] <juxta> yeah polystyrene wont attenuate GPS or any other radio signals much at all
[23:58] <juxta> so you're good there, but I still think relying on an SMS module is a bad idea
[23:58] <juxta> where are you launching from?
[23:59] <juxta> if you're launching from CU, have a chat to edmoore, maybe they can loan you a badger board or something so you get real tracking
[00:00] --- Fri Mar 5 2010