highaltitude.log.20100216

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[03:44] <natrium42> o/
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[09:28] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/t9lwQ.png
[09:28] <Laurenceb> ^ interesting
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[10:01] <juxta-> hi all
[10:10] <russss> so the police with their shiny new thief-catching UAV were breaking the rules on "Small Unmanned Surveillance Vehicles" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7248756/Eye-in-the-sky-arrest-of-a-teenage-thief-could-land-police-in-court.html
[10:11] <Laurenceb> hah a quadcopter
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[10:43] <Laurenceb> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9581
[10:43] <Laurenceb> nice
[10:45] <russss> that's quite the frequency range
[10:45] <Laurenceb> yeah but read the comments
[10:47] <russss> ah
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[10:49] <Laurenceb> no better than chipcon spec wise, slightly high power but thats naughty
[10:49] <Laurenceb> and temperature sensor and adc built in
[10:49] <Laurenceb> ooh hang on - p115 of datasheet
[10:49] <Laurenceb> you can chuck the baseband out of the gpio pins
[10:49] <Laurenceb> scanner time :P
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[10:50] <Laurenceb> you can do that same thing on chipcon but over spi - completely digital
[10:50] <Laurenceb> so id stick with chipcon
[10:51] <Laurenceb> actually you can chuck out I and P simultaniously
[10:51] <Laurenceb> so it cant be used as a scanner
[11:36] <Laurenceb> useful for a cheap transmitter
[11:37] <Laurenceb> as opposed to radiometrix
[12:01] <Laurenceb> the packetisation and auto resend is handy I guess
[12:04] <Laurenceb> a little cheaper than chipcon in single units QFN
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[12:35] <rjharrison> Hi all
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[15:49] <edmoore> hi ejcweb
[15:51] <ejcweb> hi there ed. do you know who i am, or was that just a general hello for having joined the channel? ;)
[15:51] <edmoore> ejcweb [~chatzilla@constantine.chu.cam.ac.uk] has joined #highaltitude
[15:52] <edmoore> somewhat gives it away
[15:52] <ejcweb> aha, i thought as much.
[15:53] <ejcweb> so is this where all of the technical discussions happen?
[15:53] <edmoore> yes
[15:53] <edmoore> although it's a bit quiet at the moment
[15:53] <edmoore> being on UK time for the most part
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[15:57] <ejcweb> right. you know when you mentioned on thursday evening about making something to send a text message with GPS coordinates, was that essentially just using a cheap mobile phone and somehow sending it a command to send a text?
[15:57] <edmoore> that's a good thing to have, yes
[15:58] <edmoore> although we would probably only use it in addition to a radio, rather than instead of
[15:58] <edmoore> so a lot of mobiles have (had) serial ports in them of various descriptions, i'm not sure what the state of the market is like now
[15:58] <ejcweb> wasn't the problem that the radio signal couldn't be detected when it landed anyway?
[15:58] <edmoore> yes
[16:00] <edmoore> so it's a nice thing to have
[16:01] <ejcweb> ok. an idea crossed my mind a day or two ago (which on the face of it seems ridiculous), to use an android phone for this purpose. clearly the cost of this makes it a foolish proposition, but i'll come to that in a bit...
[16:02] <edmoore> noisebridge just flew one, as it happens
[16:03] <ejcweb> it would then be easy to make an android app to take the location directly from the phone's in built GPS unit and send it as a reply to any text message it receives. plus it could do lots of useful datalogging itself with the in-built accelerometer.
[16:04] <ejcweb> with success?
[16:04] <edmoore> yes, I believe so
[16:05] <edmoore> The issue I have with those though is that it is an enormous sledgehammer to a tiny tiny nail, in terms of hardware and power consumption.
[16:06] <edmoore> But if you could go on to make the phone generate some audio and perhaps use its serial port to do some other things, you could be on to something
[16:06] <ejcweb> i know that the computer lab here gets lots of free android phones from google for the Part II people to use for their projects, so i wondered if it would be worth seeing if they (either the department or their google contacts) would be willing to donate one or two to us?
[16:07] <edmoore> you should definitely try! it would be cool to fly one
[16:07] <ejcweb> because as far as i see it, if we were to have one there would be a lot of scope for other interesting uses.
[16:07] <edmoore> if you can get it talking to the outside world somehow, then that really opens up some possibilities. There's a lot of CPU in those things
[16:08] <edmoore> this is the logic behind badger2 having a gumstix piggyback, infact.
[16:08] <ejcweb> and the from what i have seen the android sdk is quite easy to use.
[16:08] <edmoore> go for it.
[16:09] <ejcweb> what do you mean by gumstix piggyback? the gumstix was the tiny linux things, wasn't it?
[16:10] <edmoore> this might be a good place to start https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Icarus
[16:11] <edmoore> ejcweb: yes. it can (or at least, will in the next version) be able to talk to the rest of the flight computer
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[16:13] <ejcweb> That Icarus app is more or less exactly what I had envisaged actually.
[16:15] <edmoore> yeah. it's got the basics, but to make it worthwhile i think it would have to do something actually a bit interesting with all the hardware it has. Without wanting to sound like I'm advocating writing code with butterflies, you can repeat all that functionality for about 3.3V, 20mA and £15 worth of components.
[16:17] <ejcweb> yep, i see your point.
[16:19] <ejcweb> but on the premise that cost wasn't a barrier, surely the convenience would be a major benefit (ie. integrated GPS, GSM, accelerometer etc), not to name the extra possibilities with its huge processing power.
[16:20] <ejcweb> of course, the risk of dropping it into the sea would still be a little scary...
[16:20] <russss> quite a lot of our balloons end up in the sea.
[16:20] <russss> or in a field in France.
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[16:22] <edmoore_> whoops got disconnected
[16:22] <edmoore_> you are basically quite right
[16:23] <edmoore_> but specifically with reference to current handsets
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> The other issue is that some of the functionality isn't as great as it initially appears.
[16:23] <SpeedEvil> for example - you will lose GSM at a few hundred m altitude
[16:23] <edmoore_> 1) The GPSs in them are a) very cheap and b) don't work about 60,000ft
[16:24] <edmoore_> 2) the accelerometers used in those things are very noisy and not very accurate - they're designed really just to tell you what way up the phone is being held. perhaps not such an issue for balloons.
[16:24] <edmoore_> 3) operating temperature range usually doesn't extent particularly low
[16:24] <ejcweb> yeah, i'm not suggesting it would be much use for the very high altitude stuff. what sort of temperatures do we get to normally?
[16:24] <edmoore_> 4) battery life. it needs to be on and working for perhaps 10 hours
[16:24] <edmoore_> outside can get to -60, inside the boxes, it depends on how well insulted
[16:25] <ejcweb> i did wonder about that.
[16:25] <edmoore_> the teddies flight box was quite well insulated and the cameras generated a lot of heat, and that was as warm is -20
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[16:26] <ejcweb> okay. presumably as far as battery life is concerned there would be some way to keep it in a standby mode until required (i haven't looked to far into the sdk on this front).
[16:27] <ejcweb> in any case, it could be an interesting test nonetheless if we were able to get one to play with.
[16:28] <ejcweb> incidentally, have the new cameras arrived yet?
[16:29] <russss> can't you get some little GSM module you can interface directly with the AVR?
[16:29] <russss> if not, you should be able to
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:30] <SpeedEvil> 20-30 quid
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[16:32] <SpeedEvil> http://uk.farnell.com/teltonika/tm1/module-gsm-gprs-dual-band/dp/1716058 - say
[16:34] <russss> nifty
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[16:52] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[16:58] <MikeMc68> hi
[17:01] <edmoore_> ejcweb: sorry got called away again
[17:01] <edmoore_> one of the cameras has arrived (though at home)
[17:01] <edmoore_> it's being sent on
[17:02] <Lunar_Lander> I start to wonder if a transatlantic flight is possible
[17:02] <Lunar_Lander> I tried out some alternate launch places, like Tenerife (for a east-west crossing) or Recife
[17:03] <Lunar_Lander> I ended up with flights into the Mediterranean and into the rain forest of Brazil
[17:03] <Lunar_Lander> (in the CU Spaceflight predictor)
[17:03] <russss> Lunar_Lander: it works better in the other direction.
[17:03] <russss> west-east
[17:08] <Lunar_Lander> I know
[17:08] <Lunar_Lander> I just experimented
[17:08] <Lunar_Lander> when I start from Maine, I get a wide arc towards Iceland and then a landing in nowhere
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> and for Recife, Brazil I wanted west-east
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> and then, just for the fun of it, I gave it a launch at Tokyo
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> and I got a 1000 km flight
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> which winded north-east along the Japanese coast into the Northern Pacific
[17:12] <edmoore_> the jetstream is very much non-constant week to week
[17:12] <edmoore_> you'll have an entirely different set of outcomes if you try again in 120 hours
[17:13] <edmoore_> so SNOX launched fro m tenesse and were on course for catching the south of Ireland before ditching about 300km off
[17:18] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[17:18] <Lunar_Lander> btw
[17:19] <Lunar_Lander> did you read "Double Eagle", the book about the first successful atlantic balloon`?
[17:26] <edmoore_> nope
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[17:32] <Lunar_Lander> because it has an interesting line
[17:32] <Lunar_Lander> Double Eagle I was approaching Iceland and both pilots were quite down because of fatiuge and other problems
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[17:32] <Lunar_Lander> and then Maxie Anderson said to Ben Abruzzo: "Should we try to make Iceland? Iceland is considered Europe."
[17:32] <Lunar_Lander> I mean that is truw
[17:33] <Lunar_Lander> *true
[17:33] <Lunar_Lander> but can you really call a flight Boston-Iceland "Transatlantic"?
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[17:57] <ProjectCirru> high all, this is my first time on irc so you may have to bear with me!
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[17:58] <ProjectCirru> I'm from a student team in northern ireland hoping to launch northern irelands first high altitude photographic balloon
[17:59] <russss> hi!
[17:59] <russss> welcome
[17:59] <ProjectCirru> we have a few questions about the distributed listener
[18:01] <ProjectCirru> up until last night we were quite content to use a morse type system with our balloon to keep it simple but CU SPaceflight have recomended against this and suggested using rtty with the balloon instead
[18:02] <ProjectCirru> pretty simple change on the recieving end but a bigger change to the transmitting end
[18:03] <ProjectCirru> Does anyone know how fussy dlfldigi is about the format the data from the balloon takes?
[18:03] <russss> dl-fldigi just decodes the RTTY and sends it to the server
[18:03] <russss> the server handles checksumming and parsing
[18:03] <ProjectCirru> must it be NAME:TIME:LAT:LON:ALT etc
[18:04] <russss> new formats can be added to the server if you want
[18:04] <ProjectCirru> where can i find the currently accepted format?
[18:04] <russss> there are a couple, depending on the payload
[18:04] <ProjectCirru> don't want to go upsetting things!
[18:04] <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> for example
[18:05] <SpeedEvil> ProjectCirru:
[18:06] <ProjectCirru> would extra leading zeros or altitudes that have extra information on the end really screw with the system
[18:07] <russss> I think it ignores any trailing stuff it doesn't understand
[18:07] <ProjectCirru> or can the parsing software deal with some extra crud and chop out the bits it wants
[18:07] <russss> but it can be configured to parse it and display it on the tracker
[18:07] <russss> lots of payloads have temperature/pressure sensors and stuff
[18:08] <SpeedEvil> The advantage in principle is that you can without too much hastle - if people are around and have used the tracker before - pretty much have them tracking your balloon and contributing recieved data in a couple of mins.
[18:08] <russss> (like the aborted launch you can see here http://spacenear.us/tracker/)
[18:09] <ProjectCirru> yes i saw that...we are using a picaxe flight computer so we will be pushing it to its limits, parsing the altitude properly in the chip might be tricky.... which makes me wonder if its going to mess up the posting system
[18:10] <russss> hmm, what clock speed is that chip?
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> Does it have a hardware uart/
[18:10] <SpeedEvil> ?
[18:10] <ProjectCirru> 4 mhz lol
[18:10] <ProjectCirru> as far as I know it does but frankly it would be pushing my knowledge a bit
[18:12] <russss> we are mostly AVR people here ;)
[18:12] <ProjectCirru> I've recently discovered that! looks very flexible
[18:12] <ProjectCirru> but We wanted to start very simply and had some experience with picaxe
[18:13] <ProjectCirru> initially we only wanted a morse system which picaxe can handle no bother
[18:14] <ProjectCirru> does the rtty that the balloons are using use baudot code?
[18:15] <ProjectCirru> or are they using ascII?
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[18:16] <SpeedEvil> ascii
[18:16] <SpeedEvil> it's not really rtty
[18:17] <ProjectCirru> ahh that makes much more sense!
[18:17] <SpeedEvil> just 50bps 7n1 (?) serial
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[18:19] <russss> yeah I guess you could just call it FSK, heh
[18:19] <ProjectCirru> i researched rtty and had worked out baudot code stuff! well thats ok anyway. would a very short gap between the transmitted characters mess the software up?
[18:22] <russss> well it's 50bps, that kind of dictates the speed
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[18:24] <projectcirrusbac> sorry about that mIRC decided to close!
[18:25] <projectcirrusbac> is there anyway i can view the conversation i was having or have i started from scratch?
[18:27] <projectcirrusbac> anyhow, do you think any mainland staions could pick up a balloon in Northern Ireland
[18:30] <ProjectCirru> we are using an ntx2 transmitter
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[18:31] <ProjectCirru> high ed, I finally got here!
[18:31] <edmoore> Hi Johnathan!
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[18:32] <edmoore> how's it going?
[18:32] <ProjectCirru> most initial issues seem to be sorted now, just working out the details of the correct transmission format etc
[18:33] <edmoore> sticking with morse?
[18:33] <ProjectCirru> not so far, I haven't given up on rtty yet
[18:33] <edmoore> ok cool
[18:33] <edmoore> you've made The Right Choice :)
[18:34] <ProjectCirru> picaxe will transmit individual characters no problem.... I think
[18:34] <ProjectCirru> its just shaping up a nice packet of data that is tricky
[18:34] <edmoore> is that code I sent you clear enough? I am very bad at knowing whether or not code i understand cos i'm familiar with it is actually objectively understandable
[18:35] <ProjectCirru> Well its helpful but Picaxe is coded in basic so while similar is not the same
[18:36] <ProjectCirru> basically i just need to know what data format needs to be used
[18:36] <ProjectCirru> do i need to include the time in the packet for example
[18:36] <edmoore> ah right yes
[18:36] <edmoore> the ukhas standard
[18:36] <ProjectCirru> yes
[18:37] <edmoore> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[18:37] <edmoore> the bottom of that page
[18:37] <ProjectCirru> ok so just stick to that example,
[18:37] <edmoore> infact an even better link - http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol
[18:38] <ProjectCirru> Great thats what I was looking for
[18:38] <edmoore> don't forget the $$
[18:38] <edmoore> (it's happened)
[18:38] <ProjectCirru> ok i'll check it out
[18:41] <ProjectCirru> right that all makes sense, just includes some more grunt work for the Picaxe to do
[18:42] <edmoore> if it can't handle manpulating some ascii strings, i will send you an arduino too :)
[18:42] <ProjectCirru> ok it can do that no problem it justs means some extra lines of code
[18:43] <ProjectCirru> can you just confirm thats its ascii data format with no check bits or anything stupid
[18:45] <Lunar_Lander> btw edmoore what do you think about that Iceland thing?
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[18:45] <edmoore> ProjectCirru: yes
[18:45] <edmoore> although actually we are now doing checksums too
[18:45] <edmoore> definitely recommend flying with checksums
[18:45] <edmoore> Lunar_Lander: which iceland thing?
[18:45] <Lunar_Lander> that on the balloon Double Eagle
[18:46] <Lunar_Lander> the one saying to the other "Iceland is considered Europe"
[18:46] <Lunar_Lander> when I read that I could not believe that it was possible to declare a flight from Boston to Iceland "Transatlantic"
[18:46] <Lunar_Lander> and I wanted your opinion on that
[18:46] <edmoore> ah i see
[18:46] <edmoore> yes that is a bit dubious
[18:47] <ProjectCirru> ahhh more complexity! might chance it for a first flight and learn from it later
[18:48] <edmoore> it's just one more thing
[18:48] <edmoore> and it's easy to calculate
[18:48] <edmoore> and it really really does make a huge difference to the tracking robustness
[18:48] <edmoore> it's just too easy to get datapoints saying you're in africa
[18:48] <ProjectCirru> right so how do i best impliment that
[18:49] <ProjectCirru> that might be cool
[18:49] <edmoore> well... I don't actually know which checksum we are offocially supporting
[18:49] <ProjectCirru> :)
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[18:49] <edmoore> so the cheap and nasty one is to xor all the ascii bytes together
[18:50] <ProjectCirru> Well i might see if I can get a basic rtty system up and running first before adding nice touches
[18:51] <edmoore> we have flown this too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher's_checksum
[18:51] <edmoore> yeah, get a reliable decode first
[18:51] <edmoore> so i forget - does your scanner have ssb?
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[18:51] <ProjectCirru> the one we currently have doesn't,,, thats another reason we were sticking to morse
[18:52] <edmoore> ok, can you send me some shipping detals for you?
[18:52] <ProjectCirru> not a problem at all
[18:52] <ProjectCirru> and paypal would probably be the easiest way to cover shipping
[18:54] <edmoore> wouldn't worry about that
[18:54] <ProjectCirru> seriously its ok
[18:55] <ProjectCirru> will e-mail that jazz later.... tonight im going to try coding the picaxe and see what happens
[18:56] <ProjectCirru> was it a big problem tuning the potential divider to make the ntx2 put out the right frequency spacing?
[18:56] <edmoore> hrm, wait for a chap called rjharrison to pop on
[18:56] <edmoore> he's actually done it
[18:56] <edmoore> we've used a dac which is kind of a smug solution
[18:57] <edmoore> what's your post code btw? just getting an estimate of costs
[18:57] <ProjectCirru> i see
[18:57] <ProjectCirru> bt222aw
[18:57] <ProjectCirru> sit down first
[18:57] <ProjectCirru> couriers HATE northern ireland
[18:58] <ProjectCirru> does anyone know of any other northern irish or irish projects?
[19:00] <edmoore> blimey
[19:00] <ProjectCirru> yeah... as i said, we'll cover the cost!
[19:01] <ProjectCirru> how is the CU mission going over all?
[19:01] <edmoore> well we're in the quieter bit of the academic year
[19:01] <edmoore> loads of work, exams in april
[19:01] <edmoore> things usually happen as soon as exams are done
[19:02] <edmoore> but we'll probably have two or three launches before exams
[19:02] <ProjectCirru> I know that feeling, ours are in may
[19:02] <ProjectCirru> hence the mid april launch... hopefully
[19:02] <ProjectCirru> Most of our team is away for most of the summer unfortunately
[19:03] <ProjectCirru> lol i say team, currently there are three actual engineers, the rest are just interested
[19:04] <ProjectCirru> giving me the chance to learn to specialise in a lot of areas!
[19:04] <edmoore> yeah - this is slightly off-piste for a mechanical engineer
[19:05] <ProjectCirru> yeah, hence I'm somewhat retarded when it comes to coding, I did computing at as level but that was more about access programs
[19:06] <ProjectCirru> but they are useful skills to learn
[19:06] <edmoore> very
[19:06] <edmoore> what sort of mech eng do you do?
[19:06] <ProjectCirru> Meng in mechanical and manufacturing engineering
[19:07] <ProjectCirru> its a peculiarity of Queens university
[19:07] <edmoore> there's a manufacturing eng course here too
[19:08] <ProjectCirru> potentially a useful degree, If i don't get thrown off it for playing about with balloons!
[19:08] <edmoore> it only helps :)
[19:08] <edmoore> do you specialise within that?
[19:08] <edmoore> eg structural stuff of dynamics?
[19:08] <edmoore> i'm not really sure how mech eng works.
[19:09] <ProjectCirru> not yet, next year specialises
[19:09] <ProjectCirru> a little
[19:09] <ProjectCirru> we choose 6 from a choice of 8 or something like that
[19:10] <ProjectCirru> currently all dynamics, thermo, structures, designetc.
[19:10] <edmoore> arch thermo
[19:10] <edmoore> argh*
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[19:11] <ProjectCirru> I couldn't agree more!!! in any case im going to grab some food then sart coding............ and probably come running with my arms flailing when i get stuck!
[19:11] <edmoore> entropy from an information theory pov makes complete intuitive sense to me. entropy in the context of heat engines is just baffling.
[19:11] <edmoore> ok cool, best of luck
[19:11] <ProjectCirru> thanks all for the advice!
[19:11] <edmoore> np
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[19:37] <Laurenceb> hello
[19:37] Action: Laurenceb has been at shrovetide
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[19:37] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Shrovetide_Football
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[19:38] <rjharrison> evening all
[19:38] <rjharrison> Tonight is the night of CRC-CCITT
[19:38] <Lunar_Lander> hi Laurenceb and rjharrison
[19:38] <Lunar_Lander> what does that mean?
[19:38] <rjharrison> Evening Lunar_Lander
[19:39] <rjharrison> It's the new checksum I'm going to i'mplement in the listener
[19:39] <rjharrison> s/'//
[19:39] <Laurenceb> stupid wikipedia - Duck is from Stoffordshire
[19:42] <rjharrison> Well correct it
[19:42] <rjharrison> :P
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok
[19:49] <Laurenceb> http://gb.mouser.com/Semiconductors/RF-Semiconductors-Modules/RF-Transceiver/_/N-3ri0r?P=1yzxg75Z1yzxg7wZ1yzxg73&Keyword=silabs&FS=True&Ns=Pricing|0
[19:49] <Laurenceb> ^ some nice stuff there
[19:49] <Laurenceb> possibly better than chipcon
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[20:05] <rjharrison> Hey jcoxon
[20:05] <jcoxon> hello rjharrison
[20:05] <rjharrison> CRC-CCITT inprogress
[20:05] <jcoxon> just popping in
[20:05] <rjharrison> Nearly done in fact
[20:12] <jcoxon> dum dee dum dum
[20:12] Action: jcoxon is forecast running
[20:13] <rjharrison> cool
[20:13] <rjharrison> ping junderwood
[20:14] <junderwood> pong
[20:14] <rjharrison> junderwood are you happy to move Fletcher to CRC-CCITT ?
[20:15] <junderwood> I'd rather not, but if people think CRC-CCITT is better, I guess I'll have to!
[20:15] <rjharrison> Well it's very accurate 99.996%
[20:15] <jcoxon> rjharrison, as they are implemented surely we can have both
[20:15] <jcoxon> just define it in the XML
[20:15] <rjharrison> But wil sight additional overhead
[20:16] <rjharrison> Well sort of I have a plan for you jcoxon :)
[20:16] <jcoxon> rjharrison, a plan...
[20:16] <rjharrison> I think we should pass the xml file being used from the client
[20:16] <junderwood> Surely, and 16 bit checksum will have 99.996% accuracy
[20:17] <junderwood> (unless it's a seriously dumb ialgorithm)
[20:17] <junderwood> *any
[20:18] <rjharrison> That way we know how to decode proper. In test.php I'll add xml file!
[20:18] <jcoxon> rjharrison, i'm not sure i understand
[20:18] <rjharrison> junderwood are you saying that Fetcher is = CRC-CCITT ?
[20:19] <junderwood> No. I'm saying it is a 16 bit checksum.
[20:19] <rjharrison> jcoxon, in the client we select the xml file to use we should pass this with the sentence and not try to workit out form the string fixing the '/' problem
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> hey jcoxon
[20:20] <junderwood> and I would expect it to be roughly equivalent in terms of accuracy
[20:20] <jcoxon> rjharrison, oh right, so pass back the name of which payload we are decoding
[20:20] <jcoxon> i see
[20:20] <jcoxon> what happens if people select the wrong payload - i do it all the time
[20:20] <jcoxon> leave it on default for example
[20:20] <rjharrison> junderwood obv the Fletcher doesn't seem to have the cpu overhead that the polynomial stuff has (if i'm understanding correctly)
[20:21] <junderwood> Indeed. It's four lines of code and nothing more than addition
[20:22] <rjharrison> jcoxon, I'll return a nice error message and say Please RTFM and set the xml to match the payload :) This get around the delimiter problem
[20:22] <jcoxon> okay cool
[20:22] <junderwood> rjharrison, I think just about any 16 bit checksum would be OK. Even the XOR checksum catches most of the bad packets.
[20:23] <rjharrison> Ok junderwood we keep the Fletecher. If you could give the chance of an error getting through that would be helpfull
[20:23] <junderwood> rjharrison, it may be worth publishing your schema / DTD so people can provide their own xmls
[20:24] <junderwood> rjharrison, I will see if it's documented anywhere
[20:24] <rjharrison> junderwood yep Will do
[20:24] <jcoxon> we sort of need to finalise the xmls
[20:24] <jcoxon> rjharrison, also dl-fldigi could display the xml details
[20:24] <rjharrison> junderwood in time there will be a full xml creator on the listener webpage
[20:24] <jcoxon> so that people know what to tune to etc if it messes up
[20:24] <junderwood> :-)
[20:25] <rjharrison> jcoxon yep like payload info and launch details and indeed mission details
[20:25] <rjharrison> depending on how detailed we want he xml file to be
[20:25] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:26] <rjharrison> I would like to capture basic payload information for a given launch
[20:26] <junderwood> rjharrison, 16bit Fletcher is quoted as better than 1 in 10^5 (99.999%)
[20:27] <rjharrison> Wow that is better than CRC-CCITT
[20:27] <rjharrison> and load less overhead
[20:27] <junderwood> rjharrison, but I guess the fail rate depends on the type of errors you expect to get - random bit errors, byte errors or coherent bit/byte errors
[20:28] <rjharrison> Yep
[20:29] <jcoxon> hmmm cusf is still broken
[20:29] <jcoxon> its using data from 14/2/10
[20:30] <junderwood> In any case, given we tend to have a maximum of about 1000 packets per flight, even 10^4 gives you one error per ten flights. I would say that's probably acceptable
[20:31] <junderwood> actually, it's less. That assumes all packets are bad
[20:34] <rjharrison> Humm so basically bugger the ccitt and lets just go with Fletcher as the overhead is good
[20:35] <junderwood> That gets my vote (but I'm biased!)
[20:39] <rjharrison> Humm it might get mine, just that the CRC-CCITT is a 2byte checksum as is fletcher and there is no easy way to distinguish unless we send a futher type packet
[20:40] <rjharrison> I think we just go with fletcher for the time being as it's a whole lot simpler to understand
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[20:55] <junderwood> rjharrison, You could use a different checksum delimiter.
[20:55] <junderwood> (we've been here before)
[20:55] <Lunar_Lander> hi RocketBoy
[20:56] <jcoxon> right pancake time
[20:56] <jcoxon> bbl
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[21:07] <rjharrison> junderwood we have :_
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[21:45] <Laurenceb> http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2010/02/my-overclocked-liquid-cooled-arduino.html
[21:46] <Laurenceb> OMG
[22:00] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[22:06] <ProjectCirrus> does anyone have experience with coding for the distributed listener? I'm wondering about the protocol. The ukhas site asks for longitude in LONGITUDE-EAST DDD.DDDDDD,
[22:07] <ProjectCirrus> I'm in northern ireland so my longitude will be west, should I stick a w after the transmitted longitude or should i stick a negative on?
[22:08] <ProjectCirrus> any ideas about what the online program would prefer to recieve?
[22:08] <Randomskk> I believe a negative is the norm
[22:08] <Randomskk> but may be totally wrong
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[22:09] <Laurenceb> Randomskk: for uav/quadcopter comms
[22:09] <Laurenceb> http://gb.mouser.com/Semiconductors/RF-Semiconductors-Modules/RF-Transceiver/_/N-3ri0r?P=1yzxg75Z1yzxg7wZ1yzxg73&Keyword=silabs&FS=True&Ns=Pricing|0
[22:09] <Laurenceb> hi natrium42
[22:09] <natrium42> o/
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[22:09] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: looks really neat, plus tiny
[22:09] <natrium42> check out my host :P
[22:10] <Randomskk> does it have any protocol built in though?
[22:10] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:10] <Randomskk> natrium42: at harvard.edu eh?
[22:10] <Laurenceb> packet engine
[22:10] <natrium42> visiting my sister
[22:10] <Randomskk> Laurenceb: ah, neat
[22:10] <Laurenceb> with crc and whatnot
[22:10] <Laurenceb> auto resend and fifo buffers
[22:10] <Randomskk> the main thing I like about the zigbee stuff is the meshing etc, but doing that myself would be interesting regardless
[22:10] <Laurenceb> also -118dBm
[22:10] <Randomskk> zigbee is otherwise not ideal
[22:10] <Laurenceb> same spec as chipcon
[22:11] <Laurenceb> theoretically gives 650km range with a big yagi
[22:11] <Randomskk> !
[22:11] <Randomskk> doesn't that run into horizon issues
[22:11] <Randomskk> and path loss?
[22:11] <Laurenceb> yes
[22:11] <Laurenceb> so safe to say crazy long range
[22:12] <Randomskk> yup
[22:12] <Randomskk> as long as I could ever need
[22:12] <Randomskk> given as the law says I have to be within unassisted visual range :P
[22:12] <Laurenceb> its only a few dB off the best ham kit
[22:13] <Randomskk> and a crazy small chip
[22:14] <Laurenceb> shame you cant pull of the baseband extraction trick
[22:14] <Laurenceb> that you can do with chipcon
[22:14] <Randomskk> yea
[22:15] <Randomskk> but for situations where you just want the packets...
[22:15] <ProjectCirrus> when transmitting rtty code to dlfldigi should I transmit the lsb first or last? I need to check because with picaxe i'm manually having to generate ascii codes!
[22:17] <ProjectCirrus> sorry.. I just realised I interrupted a conversation! thats what happens when you type for ages then press send...
[22:17] <Randomskk> ProjectCirrus: this is IRC, interrupting conversations is the norm
[22:18] <Randomskk> plus neither of us had spoken for 30 seconds :P just don't speak so much you fill the screen
[22:18] <Laurenceb> heh thats the only problem with irc
[22:18] <ProjectCirrus> no probs, i'm still getting used to this
[22:18] <Laurenceb> still beats twitter
[22:18] Action: Laurenceb stabs twitter
[22:18] <ProjectCirrus> couldn't agree more
[22:18] <Randomskk> twitter is not exactly a conversational medium
[22:18] <Laurenceb> stupid media hype
[22:18] <ProjectCirrus> I jst made a cup of tea
[22:18] <ProjectCirrus> etc
[22:19] <Laurenceb> tea father?
[22:19] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:19] <ProjectCirrus> ahhh go on
[22:19] <ProjectCirrus> is that attack at the irish side here? :)
[22:19] <Laurenceb> down with this sort of thing
[22:19] <ProjectCirrus> ironic for a site discussing balloons
[22:21] <ProjectCirrus> In any case does any one have a clue which way i should be transmitting ascii?
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[22:24] <Laurenceb> hmm eagle 5.7 on ubuntu is nice
[22:24] <Laurenceb> graphics actually work properly
[22:27] Nick change: sbasuita_ -> sbasuita
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[22:33] <Laurenceb> whats with sparkfuns eagle library
[22:33] <Laurenceb> "Not to be used for commercial purposes"
[22:33] <Randomskk> yea, it's just for hobbyist stuff basically.
[22:33] <Laurenceb> it used to be CC sharealike or something
[22:34] <Randomskk> nope, they always said "not to be used for commercial purposes" for as long as I've seen it
[22:34] <Laurenceb> bah license nazis
[22:34] <Randomskk> generally not many of their designs are actually CC
[22:34] <Randomskk> also none of their PCB layouts - for their widgets all you get is schematics
[22:34] <Randomskk> and often code
[22:39] <RocketBoy> nights
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[22:39] <natrium42> nite RocketBoy
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> natrium42
[22:46] <natrium42> moinsen
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> I gave Google picture search "high altitude" and it gave your blog :P
[22:46] <natrium42> haha, woot
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[22:55] <Laurenceb> natrium42: any chance of some IMU data?
[22:55] <natrium42> i am over 900 km from home :P
[22:55] <Laurenceb> oh of course
[22:55] <Laurenceb> nvm
[22:56] <natrium42> "how convenient" ?
[22:56] <natrium42> :P
[22:56] <Laurenceb> heh
[22:56] <Laurenceb> I've gtg, cya
[22:56] <natrium42> k
[22:56] <natrium42> later
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[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> I found people who could help making a bacteria collection experiment
[23:00] <ProjectCirrus> anybody any ideas about how to send ascii codes? lsb first or last
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[23:01] <ProjectCirrus> ive tried constructing ascii codes in rtty on audacity and dlfldigi will pick them up but will give random characters
[23:02] <edmoore> got the right startand stop bits
[23:02] <edmoore> have you tried reversed too?
[23:02] <ProjectCirrus> ahh, do i need a start bit
[23:03] <ProjectCirrus> so that will give a low start bit then 7 bits for ascii then a stop bit thats high
[23:07] <ProjectCirrus> ok now that its reversed its giving me the right answer about 75 percent of the time
[23:07] <ProjectCirrus> but thats with no start bit and a high end bit
[23:08] <ProjectCirrus> do I definately need a start bit? i'll try it here anyway
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[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> ProjectCirrus welcome to the club btw :)
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> I'm also a starter
[23:16] <ProjectCirrus> its a pretty big learning curve for me
[23:16] <ProjectCirrus> but sites like this make it possible
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> well, I would say that for me too
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> though I have read so much about balloons in the last eight years
[23:17] <ProjectCirrus> 8 years!
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[23:17] <ProjectCirrus> im a relative infant
[23:17] <ProjectCirrus> about a year
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> it started with an account on Auguste Piccard's first stratosphere flight
[23:18] <Lunar_Lander> in some kid's adventure book
[23:19] <ProjectCirrus> :) well if were going to go back that far then It goes back to me as a kid wanting to make a balloon after seing Richard bransons attempt, and then later when I built a chinese lantern that performed somewhat better than expected
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> which attempt ;)?
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> the Virgin Global Challenger or the ICO Global Challenger?
[23:20] <ProjectCirrus> can't even properlly remeber, all i remeber as a kid seeing a balloon on the tv and going I want to make one of those :)
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[23:21] <ProjectCirrus> i was a strange kid!
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[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> I was like 14 when I was at the mall and they had the book on the Breitling Orbiter 3 there
[23:21] <ProjectCirrus> uhh ohh
[23:21] <ProjectCirrus> hooked
[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> and I asked my grandma if I can have it, and I got it and I read all afternoon
[23:21] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[23:22] <Lunar_Lander> especially because it was another Piccard
[23:22] <ProjectCirrus> these project type things do have a habit of hooking onto you quite effectively ive discovered
[23:23] <ProjectCirrus> what are you hoping to launch?
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[23:23] <Lunar_Lander> and in the back of the book was a chart of the previous attempts
[23:23] <ProjectCirrus> ahh
[23:23] <ProjectCirrus> something to beat>
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> and it said from the period 1993-95 "Earthwinds 1 to 3"
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> and I read about that a bit more
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> and it came out that it was not the Roziére balloon the people used in 98/99
[23:24] <Lunar_Lander> but rather one of these clear plastic helium balloons
[23:25] <ProjectCirrus> i see
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> and a cold air ballast balloon below the capsule
[23:25] <ProjectCirrus> right
[23:25] <Lunar_Lander> and that balloon caused all the trouble in all attempts
[23:26] <ProjectCirrus> ok
[23:35] <ProjectCirrus> just to check here, when im in usb mode should the logic 1 be the higher frequency?
[23:36] <MikeMc68> evening
[23:37] <ProjectCirrus> hi there
[23:37] <ProjectCirrus> I'm a Northern Irish project new to the site
[23:37] <MikeMc68> cool
[23:38] <ProjectCirrus> hoping to launch in april but just getting a bit hung up in the rtty coding
[23:39] <ProjectCirrus> i'm using a picaxe which won't put out serial at 50 baud, so i'm having to manually tell it what to pulse out for each character, the fine details of which are causing a few hiccups
[23:39] <MikeMc68> That's the easy bit :D
[23:39] <MikeMc68> Ahh
[23:39] <MikeMc68> Why use a picaxe and not an Arduino ?
[23:40] <MikeMc68> Can't you just hard code the serial ?
[23:40] <MikeMc68> That's what the guys do with the AVR's
[23:40] <ProjectCirrus> :) ive got some experience with picaxe and we were originally going to just use morse
[23:40] <ProjectCirrus> until we were advised against it
[23:40] <MikeMc68> yeah
[23:40] <MikeMc68> not good
[23:41] <ProjectCirrus> do i transmit the ascii lsb first or last?
[23:41] <MikeMc68> have you checked out James code ?
[23:41] <ProjectCirrus> ????
[23:41] <ProjectCirrus> where can i find this
[23:42] <MikeMc68> good question
[23:42] <MikeMc68> trying to find it
[23:42] <ProjectCirrus> no probs
[23:45] <MikeMc68> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/missions:ballasthalo:ballasthalo3
[23:45] <MikeMc68> down the bottom
[23:45] <ProjectCirrus> sweet i'll take a look
[23:46] <Lunar_Lander> good night :)
[23:46] <MikeMc68> cya LL
[23:49] <ProjectCirrus> sweet its all there, everything i needed, it's brilliantly annotated, lsb first and its halped with the start and stop bits... thanks
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[23:50] <MikeMc68> :D
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[23:50] <MikeMc68> Thanks James not me
[23:51] <ProjectCirrus> well thanks for finding it
[23:52] <ProjectCirrus> i need to play around with it a bit, i'm starting off generating tones in audacity then playing it through dlfldigi to check it
[23:53] <ProjectCirrus> ive had some success but the results are very random
[23:54] <ProjectCirrus> am i right in assuming that with usb the higher frequency is logic 1 and the lower is logic 0?
[23:55] <MikeMc68> usb = upper side band and not universal serial bus ?
[23:56] <MikeMc68> that is correct
[23:56] <ProjectCirrus> :) true, was just making sure so that i could eliminate it from my list of things to try changing
[23:57] <MikeMc68> :D
[23:57] <ProjectCirrus> will small changes in baud rate really screw with dlfldigi?
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[23:59] <MikeMc68> i don't think so
[23:59] <MikeMc68> as long as they are not massive changes
[00:00] --- Wed Feb 17 2010