highaltitude.log.20100201

[00:00] <Laurenceb> opamp circuit gets a little fiddly
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> micro may be easier in some ways
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> but needs >>8 bit
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> I wonder about something like a bridge
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> two pt100s.
[00:02] <Laurenceb> yeah thats what I'm thinking
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> in series
[00:02] <Laurenceb> yeah
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> one has a 220R resistor across it
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> the other side of the bridge is just resistive
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> Low Vos opamps and precision R of course
[00:04] Action: Laurenceb brainmelt
[00:09] <Laurenceb> no I dont think that works that well
[00:09] <Laurenceb> doesnt cancel out temperature shifts properly
[00:09] <Laurenceb> might take two opamps
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> Ah - I'm not expecting it to
[00:10] <SpeedEvil> I was just meaning to get it to the 99% or so differential range - and boost the signal with an opamp. Oh - I missed out the current source driving it
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> OR maybe not - I've just woken up again.
[00:16] <Laurenceb> one way -
[00:16] <Laurenceb> think bridge, with pt100 at bottom of each side
[00:16] <Laurenceb> but one side is driven from an opamp voltage divider
[00:16] <natrium42> juxta, tracking seemed to work quite well, good job
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[00:16] <Laurenceb> and the output of the other side goes through a potential divider
[00:17] <juxta> natrium42: yep, worked out just fine :)
[00:17] <juxta> natrium42: anyway to disable the alt graph on the chase cars though?
[00:17] <Laurenceb> then add a bias resistor in series with the pt100 on the lower voltage arm
[00:17] <natrium42> it's shown for the first vehicle
[00:17] <natrium42> but i can disable it completely
[00:17] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: hmm.
[00:17] <Laurenceb> so it stabilises with the higher voltage pt100 heating up a bit
[00:18] <Laurenceb> need pt100_hot=pt100_cool+delta_r
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: or perhaps simpler - wrap one in a wind shield?
[00:18] <juxta> natrium42: ah - I'm not too fussed, might be easier to switch it off, as my payload wont be aiming for float
[00:18] <natrium42> kk
[00:18] <Laurenceb> yeah, or better a heatsink
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> that works.
[00:18] <Laurenceb> oh well I've gtg
[00:18] <Laurenceb> cya
[00:18] <natrium42> juxta, do you have a canon or nikon camera?
[00:18] <juxta> canon
[00:18] <natrium42> which model?
[00:19] <juxta> eos 20D
[00:19] <juxta> why's that?
[00:19] <natrium42> cool
[00:19] <natrium42> i have a script to shoot pictures each couple of seconds
[00:19] <natrium42> and show the picture in the tracker
[00:19] <natrium42> works well for launch preparations
[00:19] <juxta> oh nice
[00:19] <natrium42> better than webcam, imo
[00:19] <juxta> true
[00:20] <natrium42> if you want to play with it, i can pull it out
[00:20] <natrium42> :)
[00:20] <juxta> how do you manage the pc -> cam link?
[00:20] <natrium42> 20D supports remote capture via usb
[00:20] <juxta> oh, does it? I thought it was only the 40D and onwards
[00:21] <natrium42> nope, my 10D has it too :P
[00:21] <juxta> hehe
[00:21] <juxta> well that makes things easy then ;p
[00:21] <natrium42> it's lower bandwidth than webcam stream
[00:21] <juxta> sure, if you have the script that'd be great natrium42
[00:21] <natrium42> and you can see much better since the pics are higher res
[00:21] <juxta> but our gear runs windows
[00:21] <juxta> what's your script written in?
[00:22] <natrium42> it can run in windows or linux
[00:22] <natrium42> i will get it for you later, on a different machine atm
[00:22] <juxta> no worries :)
[00:22] <juxta> thanks natrium42
[00:24] <natrium42> i am so annoyed that 10D is not supported in win7/vista
[00:24] <natrium42> only 20D and up... you're lucky
[00:24] <juxta> haha
[00:25] <juxta> I use xp and linux mainly, so it's not too much of an issue either way :)
[00:25] <natrium42> linux ftw
[00:25] <natrium42> xp fteww
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[08:21] <juxta> rjharrison, you around?
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[09:46] <Laurenceb> sup folks
[09:48] Action: Laurenceb has hot air/solder station
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[09:53] <Lisa87> Hello
[09:57] <Laurenceb> hi
[09:57] <russss> Laurenceb: did you get the cheap ebay chinese thing?
[09:57] <Laurenceb> yes, it just arrived
[10:03] <Lisa87> So are you guys going to launch anything soon?
[10:13] <Laurenceb> jcoxon is for sure
[10:17] <Lisa87> ok
[11:12] Action: Laurenceb just finished his hot wire sensor
[11:12] <Laurenceb> seems to kind of work with a TLC271 driving it directly
[11:13] <Laurenceb> but the opamp output becomes nonlinear dirivng that much current
[11:13] <Laurenceb> works nicely with a ICL7611 and a pnp transistor
[11:14] <Laurenceb> blowing hard onto it gives a 600mv shift
[11:20] <Laurenceb> response is nice and fast - theres a slight hysteresis effect, think it might be the dodgy multimeter I used to test it
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[11:25] <juxta_> anybody in atm?
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[18:37] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:39] <MikeMc68> evening
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> evening.
[18:40] <russss> evening!
[18:42] <jcoxon> oh dear - NASA is screwed
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> In some ways - best thing that could happen to them.
[18:42] <jcoxon> true - constellation was rubbish
[18:42] <SpeedEvil> NASA has been a poisonous influence in many ways.
[18:42] <jcoxon> but it really kicks human spaceflight from what i understand
[18:43] <MikeMc68> shame about the moonshots though
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> Being a welfare organisation - not a space organisation.
[18:43] <MikeMc68> this will put any chance of going back to the moon by about 2- years at least
[18:43] <MikeMc68> *20
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure.
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> It may actually advance it.
[18:43] <SpeedEvil> If it can encourage NASA to rely more on the private sector.
[18:44] <jcoxon> hmmm perhaps
[18:45] <MikeMc68> i think concentrating on the private sector is a good move - cheaper technology means MORE spaceflights
[18:45] <MikeMc68> butthe focus seems to be moving away from moonshots
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> Go and look at damn near any specification for a NASA vehicle.
[18:45] <MikeMc68> then i guess as long as there are enough private companies investing in moonshot technology it will be the way to go
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> It is not 'it must move payload x to point y along vector q at time t, with environmental specs of z.'
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> It's more or less a complete vehicle design that mandates buisness as usual.
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> Which only the usual suspects have the skillsets to do.
[18:47] <jcoxon> grrr i hate having to wait for GPS lock
[18:49] <MikeMc68> you need a ublox
[18:49] <MikeMc68> :D
[18:49] <jcoxon> i know!
[18:49] <jcoxon> i'm the biggest promoter of ubloxes as well!
[18:49] <jcoxon> and i'm stuck with a lassen
[18:53] <MikeMc68> hehe
[18:53] <MikeMc68> for now
[18:53] <jcoxon> yeah
[18:54] <jcoxon> found a nice ublox at seeedstudio
[19:01] <MikeMc68> really? I can't see one on their website
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[19:19] <jcoxon> MikeMc68, http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/gps-bee-50-channel-ublox-5-p-560.html?cPath=6&zenid=7fc476a9d6af2d593249967f2f0fcf27
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[20:03] <rjharrison> Evening all
[20:03] <rjharrison> jcoxon lol the lassen
[20:07] <jonsowman> evening
[20:08] <rjharrison> hey
[20:08] <rjharrison> Hows it going
[20:08] <DanielRichman> Yagi finished. Now I need to get it tested
[20:08] <rjharrison> Cool
[20:08] <jonsowman> hows things with you
[20:08] <rjharrison> A bit of a range test due then
[20:09] <rjharrison> jonsowman not bad been very busy with new house but hoping to get back into hab for a bit
[20:09] <rjharrison> I have a 3kg in the celler
[20:09] <rjharrison> cellar
[20:09] <jonsowman> sounds good
[20:09] <jonsowman> :)
[20:09] <MikeMc68> oh cool - $55 bucks which is about £35 squid
[20:10] <MikeMc68> james are you looking for a sat or sun launch?
[20:18] <rjharrison> PIng jcoxon
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[20:25] <MikeMc68> Ping jcoxon
[20:32] <jcoxon> hey
[20:32] <jcoxon> back
[20:32] <jcoxon> rjharrison, ping
[20:34] <rjharrison> hi jcoxon
[20:34] <rjharrison> I have been thinking about the xml and I would like to move it on to the next level
[20:35] <jcoxon> okay
[20:35] <jcoxon> whats the next level?
[20:35] <jcoxon> MikeMc68, sat launch is the plan
[20:35] <rjharrison> Well to sort out the custom fields
[20:36] <rjharrison> I think they should be stored in a huge text field in the database separated with ;
[20:36] <rjharrison> But there is no reason why they can not be separated in the telmetry by ,
[20:36] <rjharrison> I'll just concat them up to post to the database
[20:37] <rjharrison> I also want to rewrite the listener.php to make it easier to debug
[20:37] <MikeMc68> k
[20:37] <MikeMc68> i was trying to work out if i had enough time to build a yagi
[20:37] <rjharrison> jcoxon cool
[20:37] <rjharrison> I'll be able to track from here :)
[20:38] <rjharrison> one sec
[20:38] <rjharrison> bbiab
[20:38] <jcoxon> rjharrison, i see
[20:38] <jcoxon> it does make sense - iirc the orignal reason for the ; seperators was that we hardcoded the number of fields into dl-fldigi
[20:38] <jcoxon> but now that we read the xml file it really shouldn't matter
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[20:56] <jcoxon> hey edmoore
[20:57] <edmoore> yo. just a flying visit, am about to get head down for a late night work sesh. anything much new?
[20:57] <jcoxon> hmmm not much to tell the truth
[20:57] <jcoxon> french hams have got in contact
[20:57] <jonsowman> hi edmoore
[20:58] <jcoxon> still on for sat
[20:58] <rjharrison> back
[20:58] <edmoore> cool
[20:59] <rjharrison> jcoxon the original reason was to be able to treat them as one field so that they could be stored in the DB it was a cheap trick
[20:59] <jcoxon> yeah
[20:59] <rjharrison> But I have the time to work around it now with out effecting anything and then to encorportate it into the reacker properly
[20:59] <rjharrison> tracker
[21:00] <jcoxon> yeah, and as there is increased demand for graphs etc of the custom data
[21:00] <jcoxon> however please don't change anything till after the weekend :-p
[21:00] <jcoxon> tis all set up for horus and atlas launches
[21:00] <edmoore> mega shout out for url-based api
[21:00] <edmoore> for data strings
[21:00] <edmoore> that would really help a lot
[21:01] <jcoxon> yeah in some ways the listening server should be central with an api which everything else including the tracker is built upon
[21:01] <rjharrison> We will need to change the upload feature slightly
[21:01] <rjharrison> Hehe cool sounds like a project
[21:02] <MikeMc68> Is it too early to get a predicted path for Saturday?
[21:02] <jcoxon> MikeMc68, a tiny bit
[21:02] <rjharrison> Yep
[21:02] <MikeMc68> k
[21:02] <MikeMc68> just curious if it was going to go south or not
[21:02] <jcoxon> but currently its an SE flight path towards belgium
[21:03] <rjharrison> edmoore I could allow custom querys to built and parsed un the URL
[21:03] <jcoxon> but i strongly suspect this to change and actually think it might swing a bit north
[21:03] <edmoore> rjharrison: that would be great
[21:03] <rjharrison> But it may be better if it is a bit easier for the newbies
[21:03] <edmoore> really helps for things like the tracker
[21:03] <jcoxon> rjharrison, i wouldn't worry about newbies
[21:04] <edmoore> can query the number of birds up in the air, and grab lat/long/alt for each one as and when it chooses
[21:04] <edmoore> newbies probs aren't interested in the vagaries of DB api
[21:04] <jcoxon> as the first 'app' as such will be a google maps tracker
[21:04] <jcoxon> which would be identical to the current tracker
[21:04] <jcoxon> but also we could make say zeusbot grab data if you went !location or something
[21:05] <rjharrison> That would be cool databases are my thing
[21:05] <jcoxon> and people could make custom interfaces - though i'd strongly promote the continued use of spacenear.us as its a well known centralised site to pass out to people who want to follow
[21:06] <rjharrison> I have the last 20 flights worth of data in the DB
[21:06] <rjharrison> The problem is that there is only som many filed that one can store in the DB
[21:06] <rjharrison> Fields even
[21:07] <rjharrison> I would suggest addding 10 custom fields and having them defined by the xml
[21:08] <rjharrison> The custom fields can be concatinated by using the same field name and the listener can then add a ; between the data
[21:08] <rjharrison> This will allow for graphing too
[21:09] <rjharrison> listener ---> DB ---> Everything Else
[21:09] <rjharrison> The interface will be via the xml and the DB
[21:10] <rjharrison> The DB will contain a minimum number of set fields for balloons, chase vehicles
[21:12] <rjharrison> OK this will need a bit of thought as to how the data should be returned
[21:12] <rjharrison> XML suit every one?
[21:12] <jcoxon> yeah
[21:12] <jcoxon> as in xml definitions for each payload?
[21:13] <rjharrison> No, as in XML formatted output or csv with filed names
[21:13] <rjharrison> I don't think it matters too much as csv and xml are well catered for
[21:15] <jcoxon> i'm not really sure whats best
[21:15] <rjharrison> Well different presentations are better for different purposes
[21:15] <rjharrison> But php handles xml well and it can be streamed to csv if needed
[21:16] <jcoxon> i'd just chose one and we can work around it
[21:16] <rjharrison> I would also like the ablity to uload raw csv data from an sd card if it is retrieved and ideally it would be stored in a format on the SD card that could be loaded straing into the DB
[21:17] <rjharrison> Via a web interface
[21:17] <rjharrison> this would be good for keeping the most accurate information for flights
[21:17] <rjharrison> As the data is the most impportant asset we have
[21:18] <jcoxon> very true
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[21:18] <jcoxon> maybe a live DB and a historic DB
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[21:23] <rjharrison> jcoxon a short flod of 22 lines this is the DB as it stands todate
[21:24] <rjharrison> +-----------+---------------------+
[21:24] <rjharrison> | vehicle | max(server_time) |
[21:24] <rjharrison> +-----------+---------------------+
[21:24] <rjharrison> | Icarus | 2009-04-13 12:09:45 |
[21:24] <rjharrison> | XABEN4 | 2009-04-25 08:37:00 |
[21:24] <rjharrison> | Sighting | 2009-04-28 15:48:18 |
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[21:24] <SpeedEvil> sighting
[21:24] <rjharrison> Ouch
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> prolly pastebin
[21:24] <rjharrison> I guess that is the server giving me a kick in the arse
[21:24] <jcoxon> :-D
[21:25] <rjharrison> pasebin in the future
[21:25] <jcoxon> rjharrison, ooo can we flush view.php - its getting a little ridiculous
[21:25] <rjharrison> This is all the flights and the landing times in the DB
[21:27] <jonsowman> edmoore: is the buspirate in the cusf lab now?
[21:27] <edmoore> no. sorry.
[21:28] <rjharrison> http://www.robertharrison.org/listen/view.php
[21:28] <rjharrison> Clean
[21:28] <edmoore> hang on, let me make a calendar event of it for 7.30am tomorrow so i remember to leave qwith it
[21:28] <rjharrison> bbiab
[21:28] <jonsowman> ok no worries. just so i dont bother checking when its not there
[21:28] <jonsowman> as i said im in no desperate rush for it
[21:28] <edmoore> done
[21:28] <jonsowman> thanks :)
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[21:36] <MikeMc68> Who has the PAYG vodafone modem dongle?
[21:36] <MikeMc68> I see vodafone have stopped selling them
[21:36] <MikeMc68> I presume they still work as originally intended
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[21:44] <rjharrison> jcoxon, I think csv is the way forward
[21:44] <rjharrison> It's very easy to produce the output with/without html formatting
[21:45] <rjharrison> and most people can parse it just fine
[21:45] <rjharrison> With time on our hands an xml output is possibe too
[21:46] <edmoore> will it be poss to just grab individual cells too?
[21:46] <rjharrison> I think a filed selector and some dummy data would be enough with the ability to specify max and mins for last point info
[21:46] <rjharrison> field
[21:47] <edmoore> eg be able to say 'get me the latitude of the 274th string of atlas'
[21:47] <rjharrison> edmoore yep using max(id),badger,lat,long,alt
[21:47] <edmoore> actually just being able to grab the message would be plenty
[21:47] <edmoore> ah ok cool
[21:47] <rjharrison> somehting like that
[21:48] <rjharrison> max(id),callsign="icarus",lat,lon,alt say
[21:49] <edmoore> basically like lastpos.php but for arbitrary strings
[21:49] <rjharrison> anything really clever and I'll push you back to writing sql with a readonly login
[21:49] <edmoore> as we can grab that with a single line of python
[21:49] <rjharrison> yep
[21:49] <jcoxon> would be worth chatting with russs
[21:49] <jcoxon> he had some plans for something along this
[21:50] <edmoore> (lat,lon,alt) = urlopen(...../lastpos.php).read().split(',').[:3]
[21:50] <rjharrison> jcoxon grabbing data or writing a listener
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[21:50] <edmoore> or something like that
[21:50] <rjharrison> hehe cool
[21:51] <edmoore> i think maybe without the '.' before [:3]
[21:51] <edmoore> anyhoo
[21:51] <rjharrison> Right I need to chat to the wife for a bit
[21:51] <edmoore> nice and peasy for the trackertron
[21:51] <edmoore> i need to chat with solidworks for a bit too
[21:51] <rjharrison> Lets have a play with the stuff this w/e
[21:51] <rjharrison> First launch this year !!!
[21:51] <natrium42> hi peeps
[21:51] <rjharrison> Hey natrium42
[21:51] <natrium42> what's new?
[21:51] <natrium42> what launch?
[21:51] <natrium42> :)
[21:51] <rjharrison> Been having a chat about data storage
[21:52] <rjharrison> and the listener
[21:52] <rjharrison> see logs must dash
[21:52] <rjharrison> back later
[21:52] <natrium42> lates
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[21:52] <jcoxon> hey natrium42 i fixed the listener to send hte custom fields to the tracker for horus
[21:53] <natrium42> excellent
[21:53] <jcoxon> but will need some additional config on the tracker end to match up the variables to the variable name
[21:53] <natrium42> oh, okay
[21:53] <natrium42> you think it's best to have it on the tracker side?
[21:54] <natrium42> or maybe it could be added in the mission xml?
[21:54] <jcoxon> no
[21:54] <jcoxon> but we are planning a listener server overhaul
[21:54] <natrium42> ah, k
[21:54] <jcoxon> so for now is it okay to do it the same way as BH3
[21:54] <natrium42> maybe it can be hardcoded for horus for now
[21:54] <jcoxon> but bearing in mind that BH4 is pretty much the next day :-p
[21:56] <edmoore> jcoxon: http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/hourly-predictions/
[21:56] <edmoore> now with all new month
[21:56] <edmoore> wow check that out
[21:56] <natrium42> jcoxon, maybe i will add subdomains
[21:59] <jcoxon> :-)
[21:59] <edmoore> jcoxon: this sat, based on current prediction (0bviously probs a load of balls) looks pretty good
[22:00] <jcoxon> yeah but tis too early, i checked a few hours ago - it was a quite a bit different :-)
[22:00] <jcoxon> but yeah
[22:00] <jcoxon> i think its going to be going east
[22:00] <jcoxon> http://www.pegasushabproject.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/missions:ballasthalo:ballasthalo4#launch_plans
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[22:03] <MikeMc68> Hey thanks for the link to my website in that lot James
[22:05] <jcoxon> no problem - was also to remind me
[22:06] <natrium42> jcoxon, so you were able to do what you planned yesterday, eh?
[22:06] <jcoxon> yup :-)
[22:06] <jcoxon> running the payload right now
[22:06] <natrium42> coolz
[22:07] <jcoxon> few more jobs to do
[22:07] <jcoxon> and lots of testing :-p
[22:08] <jcoxon> but yes we are on track
[22:09] <natrium42> so juxta is launching on friday?
[22:09] <natrium42> winds improved then?
[22:11] <jcoxon> thats what i heard
[22:11] <jcoxon> but i think its more midnight GMT
[22:12] <natrium42> which is excellent time for me :P
[22:13] <jcoxon> so its more saturday then friday
[22:14] <jcoxon> oh wait thats early friday morning
[22:14] <jcoxon> oops timezone issues
[22:14] <natrium42> :D
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[22:14] <natrium42> australia is like GMT+10 or something
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[22:16] <Laurenceb> sup
[22:16] <jcoxon> hey Laurenceb
[22:17] <Laurenceb> hi
[22:21] <natrium42> Dr. Blaxter
[22:24] <MikeMc68> hi
[22:35] <edmoore> night all
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[22:49] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/fb2HI.jpg
[22:49] <Laurenceb> very blurry shot unfortunately :(
[22:50] <Randomskk> :( soldered up my motor controller with the 0402 parts and the qfn avr
[22:50] <Randomskk> all the soldering appears to be okay but the avr is not programming
[22:50] <Randomskk> just not responding at all
[22:50] <Laurenceb> not good
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[22:50] <Randomskk> continuity seems fine on all the ICSP pins and power
[22:50] <Laurenceb> thats my anemometer btw
[22:51] <Laurenceb> maybe overheated? esd?
[22:51] <Randomskk> it does look vaguely anemometer shaped :P
[22:51] <Randomskk> I've never seen overheating or esd kill an avr
[22:51] <Randomskk> wouldn't have thought it should have been exposed to either in particular but maybe I guess
[22:51] <Laurenceb> its a pop rivet with the inside drilled out
[22:51] <Laurenceb> my camera autofocus doesnt like it
[22:52] <Laurenceb> you can see the legs of the bulb sticking out in the middle
[22:52] <Laurenceb> I've killed a couplke of avrs
[22:52] <Laurenceb> they arent that esd safe
[22:53] <Laurenceb> bbl
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[22:55] <MikeMc68> very blurry shot
[22:56] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[22:57] <SpeedEvil> I wonder what could cause a camera to take one picture as if it was going dark, and then be blind even to sunlight.
[22:57] Action: SpeedEvil needs to swap the camera module I guess
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[23:32] <Laurenceb> the sensitivity is amazing
[23:32] <Laurenceb> can map out the convection currents inside my house
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[23:33] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> Is this a differntial with one shielded - or just ...
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[23:33] <SpeedEvil> one and a fixed r
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> and are you sure you're not measuring tempco?
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[23:35] <Laurenceb> its a single decanned bulb
[23:35] <Laurenceb> with an opamp drivier to keep it at 270C atm
[23:36] <Laurenceb> I'll increase it to 500C to get better rejection of ambient temp
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[23:36] <Laurenceb> then you measure the voltage across it
[23:36] <Laurenceb> so you work out the power dissipation
[23:37] <Laurenceb> I havent tried te pt100 idea yet
[23:37] <Laurenceb> was thinking using the spare pwm outputs from the STM32 to pwm a pt100
[23:38] <Laurenceb> I think you can use a single pt100, and modulate the temperature
[23:38] <Laurenceb> then from the response calculate the ambient temp as well - with just a single sensor
[23:39] <Laurenceb> very cheap as it just sticks onto a pwm output and you measure using a shunt resistor into an adc input
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> umm
[23:40] <SpeedEvil> you're trading accuracy at 'dc' with inaccuracy at the temperature modulation frequency?
[23:58] <Laurenceb> more or less
[23:58] <Laurenceb> and simpler
[00:00] --- Tue Feb 2 2010